Knowledge:Categories for discussion/Log/2014 May 19

1366:. I think you're going about this the wrong way. It's not the size or area of a country that matters (and nominator has clearly determined that size matters), but species richness. You haven't considered just how many species there are that have small distributions (a few small countries -- avoiding category clutter). Azerbaijan, for example, is about the same size as Austria or Serbia and has well over 100 endemic plants. I notice that you almost always title these discussions with one of the smaller countries to emphasize your point. Yes, the smallest country categories (Andorra, Monaco, San Marino) may not end up having very many articles in them because regional categories would suffice and so their fate isn't clear, but most of the European country categories could contain many species with restricted distributions or endemics. And because Knowledge is a 4384:. The issues you've explained you have will not be resolved by purging the category. These people are described in their articles as (a) perennial candidates, (b) from Washington state, therefore they are listed in a category called "perennial candidates from Washington state." This is, in fact, the absolute definition of objectivity. Your subjective argument - while I disagree with it - could be a valid argument within the articles themselves. It is not germane or appropriate to a category deletion discussion. Your argument, as it currently stands, would demand we also go through and delete established categories such as "American anti-communists", "Cold War leaders", etc., as 'anti-communist' and 'leader' are both subjective terms, unlike "People born in 1928." Do you feel a little bit better at all now? 4471:, this is not a discussion about perennial candidates generally. This is a delete discussion for a Knowledge category called "Perennial candidates from Washington state." Merrill Cook is not listed in the category "Perennial candidates from Washington state" which is the subject of this discussion. Your comments in this discussion should pertain to the category "Perennial candidates from Washington state," not your general observations, feelings, or thoughts about perennial candidates. Thank you. 1374:. That's the only question here. I stress that point so much because I know in past discussions that the impulse is to reply with examples that make your case for you so I repeat that the examples you might cite would likely not be included in that category while others have not yet been categorized or written. But then, I suppose, it's easier to nominate categories for consolidation than to go about fixing, sorting, and writing -- the basic tasks of building the encyclopedia. 2139:- In each of the articles contained within the category, the organization is unambiguously stated as "major" (sourced to RS). There is no subjectivity, as inclusion in the category is based on an objective criteria, namely, does the article refer to the organization with a "major" descriptor (e.g. "the largest," etc.). Issues as to the subjectivity of descriptors need to be raised in the articles themselves and won't be resolved by deleting the category. 1370:, these categories have not been correctly applied. The point is that while we may not have an article for every species yet, when we do these categories will be viable if they aren't right now. So I suggest you consider the list above and ask yourself how many of these categories, when circumscribed correctly to endemics and species with restricted distributions, wouldn't violate 386:"Oceania" includes Australia but so too can "the Pacific". "Australasia" is generally used as a term to refer to Oceania with the exception that Australasia often bleeds into the Indonesian side of New Guinea. Apart from that, there's not a huge difference between any of these terms. Like Obi, I don't think we need to worry about the Antarctica issue in relation to this category. 2650:-- It might be legitimate to have a category by the province in which the unit is raised. However, unless the association with a province is permanent, I am not sure even this would work. Being stationed there at present (or in the past) should not be sufficient. I am not formally voting as I am the otherside of the Atlantic and do not really know. 3918:

over time. It doesn't make sense to categorize everything that at one time had a majority, if these are happening at different census counts. This is especially true for Native Americans, who have been moved around a lot in the country's history. Populations are very fluid, so this isn't an ideal categorization scheme.

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American and some other race. Beyond this, since any place that ever has fit this description can be so categorized, we would have to categorize places in Michigan and Wisconsin (such as Green Bay), that once had a majority Metis population, although few residents in those places today claim Native American ancestry.

320:. Knowledge categories tend to use "Oceania" rather than "the Pacific". I'm not sure that all of the articles in the category are appropriate for this category, but I think there may be enough that are to justify the category. If anyone wants to argue in favour of deletion, I would at least consider the argument. 4284:. So, the objection then is not with the existence of a category but whether or not these individuals should be referred to as perennial candidates in their articles - an issue that needs to be addressed in the individual articles listed in this category, and can't be resolved by simply deleting the category. 3917:

threshold; There is no fundamental difference between having 49.9% Native American population versus 50.1%. Plurality populations are even more arbitrary, as it is different for different communities. Sometimes 20% could be a plurality, sometime 49% is. Furthermore, this is a quality that can change

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The criterion, as with all categories, is if the articles within the category use the category descriptor in their body text. If an article says someone was born in 1920, we include them in the category "People born in 1920." If an article says someone was a lover of broccoli, we include them in the

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You know guys, it just occurred to me to write how meaningless and subjective this category is. If the word "discontinued" was to be applied to a version of a software product, it would be discontinued as soon as it came out of the door: The developer always works on the next version, which would be

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The nominator's rationale is only that the decision to place these articles in this category is subjective, so I can only address that argument. No subjectivity has been applied in placing these articles into this category. In each case, the articles themselves refer to the subject as a "perennial

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the majority population of an area changes over time, and we normally don't do categories that change over time. If it is defining for a place, it should be defining for all time. By that argument, every place in the Americas once had a majority indigenous population - that some places still do in

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is in production. Furthermore, during the days when my Knowledge activity was at its peak, I learned that editors looking to add tags, categories or infobox parameters try their best to shove as many as they can into the affected page. (Modesty was never their trait.) This category seems to be the

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You don't create objectivity by simply finding a few sources that make the same subjective assessment. For instance it's trivial to find tons of sources that describe Barack Obama as a communist. When does a candidate become perennial? After this second try? the fourth? Does it have to be for the

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These are units that were raised in or have a significant connection to the province of Alberta. There are, or will be, categories for military units that were raised in or have a significant connection to all of the provinces and territories. This is of particular importance when looking at CEF

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The majority of people living on US "Indian Reservations" are not Native Americans, the majority of Native Americans do not live on Indian reservations, and more so than some other groups, this will varry if we include just those who report being native American and those who report being Native

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I disagree. I've reviewed each of the articles in this category and, in each case, the descriptors of import used are identifying the preeminent criminal organization in the nation in question, which - by a reasonable reading - clearly is synonymous with "major national criminal organizations."

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battalions that are not named or units that do not have a "geographic" name. The a South Alberta Light Horse and the Loyal Edmonton Regiment are clearly Alberta units based on the name. Where is the 20th Field Artillery Regiment from? Or the 9th Battalion, CEF? Both are Alberta-raised units.

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We do not try to determine, in category deletion discussion, if a criminal organization is "major" (a subjective approach, as you are advocating) - we only attempt to determine if the article describes it as "major" (an objective approach). This is a very, very simple, straightforward process.

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I have no idea. This is the description the overwhelming majority of RS sources reporting on these candidates have used and is, as a result, the description that has been included in their entries on Knowledge. I neither know, nor have interest in knowing, what criteria they've used. Thanks,

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makes sense because the Cold War has relatively precise start/stop dates. The term "leader" should probably be defined in a hatnote but it clearly refers to heads of states and there's little ambiguity there. In the case of American anti-communists, the hatnote explains that the cat is for

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I appreciate you're having difficulty understanding the situation and I want to work with you to enhance your understanding, however, I need to ask you please read and review what I've previously written. Again, the articles source RS that describe them as perennial candidates, e.g.:

3742: 3718: 3662: 3694: 3614: 3892:- I always thought wikipedia was for "everyone" but mass nominations like this, explained simply as "numerous precedents" (let's not even bother trying to explain why it makes sense here, that would be too hard) show clearly that not all editors would have it that way, see also 3774: 3654: 3590: 186: 3726: 3702: 3678: 3646: 3622: 3782: 3670: 3606: 3734: 3686: 3598: 3750: 3638: 3630: 3875:, say, has always had a Native American majority population and will continue to do so in a stable and defining manner. (The last three in the list are French-American, German-American and Italian-American to which the precedents do apply, and which should be deleted.) 3758: 3947: 1857:" and "red letter" have different meanings.) In this case, "discontinued" is never used with a single version of a computer program. A program is said to be discontinued when it is no longer maintained; meaning that no new versions are released. In that sense, even 1883:: If Microsoft is no longer selling new licenses/providing support, yes, one could argue that "Discontinued" would be the proper term. And yes, they did not continue to the next version, because version in this context could refer to patches or service packs. 4008: 3304: 2345:. No clear way to determine that a given cartel is "major" or "minor", especially as this characterization may change over time. Do we mark mafia groups that are big today, that were once big, or that will be big in the future? There is a rich tree at 1344:-- I think we recently allowed an Iberian category, on the basis that the Pyrannees were a sufficient barrier. I believe that we have allowed UK and Ireland categories, on the basis that they are isands. For the rest fauna do not respect borders and 1387:

Sure, I tend to choose one of the smaller countries for the CFD title; some (especially non-European) editors may be unaware that there are such small countries in Europe and hence that there are so many countries in Europe (especially when places

2194:. However, the only thing we will discuss in a category deletion discussion is the black/white issue of whether the category descriptor is contained in the article. That is the criteria and it is, in fact, the absolute definition of objectivity. 1984:

released either in the form of a patch or full package. It seems someone just made this category to put Windows versions that he deemed unworthy, outfashioned or vintage. The lack of support that I initially saw was just a pattern. Best regards,

3525: 1231:"Europe" itself is pretty arbitrary in places, too. There's no barrier for insects to stop existing at the imaginary line between Eastern Europe and Western Asia. Perhaps landmasses with some commonality in insects would be better, such as 4312:

was the best American film of 2013, yet you wouldn't use this info to categorize the film. Categories are very black-and-white whereas articles can let the reader make up his own mind by giving him the facts of someone's political career.

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This CFD is because this categorization scheme would, if complete, put many articles about insect species in dozens of categories for European countries that are not even mentioned in the article (many articles say something like

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Categorizing by regions would be better than categorizing by countries ("Mammals of San Marino" etc), but IMO Europe (approx 7% World's land area) is about the right level for this categorization. Note: Many articles

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of a software engineering dictionary instead, although you are going to have a hard time proving Windows is no longer in production. Note: We can edit the category and put it under whatever suitable. Best regards,

3861: 2156:. The fact that the sources use of terms such as "major" does need mean that they are using them in the same way. Without some sort of objective criteria, this category merely notes the subjectivity of others. -- 1348:

is appropriate. The most common insects would have dozens of categories, which is not appropriate. This suffers from the same objection as performance (country of occurrence) by performer (species) categories.

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although I'm willing to be persuaded otherwise. I do find the category interesting and potentially valuable but on the other hand "perennial candidate" is really too subjective as the criterion of inclusion.

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per proposal. Categorization by subcontinental regions (e.g., Scandinavia) might have merit, but insects don't pay attention to political boundaries, making this excessive and non-meaningful categorization.

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3330:, which refers to a handball team. All we need to do is append "players" to the club name. We don't need to add the word "handball" into the category name, because it creates a redundancy, since (I assume) 1505: 1493: 4450:, except he was actually elected to Congress for 2 terms, so not really. I am not convinced there is a workable definition that can deal with the problem some of these people do on occasion win big time. 4177:

candidate" and, in each of those cases, the "perennial candidate" label has been sourced to (usually multiple) RS. Feel free to review each of the articles in this category, and the sourcing references.

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is a Japan-made English wasei-eigo term, and is quite common among Japanese singer-songwriters. Albums of this nature are consistently referred to as such (picking a few listed at the セルフカバー article,

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page, the people who made those felt that self-cover albums were conceptually different enough to be in their own sections and not lumped-in with the other tribute/cover albums they'd done. --

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If perenial candidate is a problematic or unworkable category, than any subcategory of it is unworkable. Perennial candidate is not a workable concept, and so no sub-grouping of it can work.

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instead of the current ambiguous title, as there are Labor Parties in the world. The scope of "trad union leaders" is somewhat smaller, as labour organizers also occur outside of unions. --

1673: 303: 4459: 4105: 2788: 2627: 4563: 1993: 1896: 1718: 768: 4550:-- It is a matter of POV how often a candidate has to stand to be a perennial candidate. I would remind others that failed candidates for political office are generally NN, as failing 3459: 3007: 2907: 1913: 1875: 1252: 3245: 189:, which is hilariously long. Plus OB/GYN is a term not everyone might be familiar with (I personally didn't know exactly what it referred to, even though I'd heard the term before). -- 3463: 3316: 2694: 2443: 2129: 1214:. For info currently the categories for some countries have just a few articles (e.g. England 1, Switzerland 2) and categories for other countries contain several thousand articles. 99: 4186: 2060: 742: 4648: 4166: 3156:. as for kings and queens as regal, the vice-regal in the plural are common nouns; this nomination when successful will apply to all sub-categories and articles similarly misnamed 2702: 2497: 2451: 2379: 1149: 508: 476: 2358: 2333: 4521: 4265: 2706: 2455: 2311: 1747: 1485: 2845: 1592: 4509: 4222:

identified the candidates in question as "perennial" and, as a result, they have been included in the category "Perennial candidates from Washington state." As to your question

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Items in this category are not discontinued at all. "Discontinued" means not having continued to the next version; all of these have next versions. They are unsupported.

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from the Microsoft hierarchy altogether. There was a slight majority for renaming but not sufficient consensus for moving away from a wider pattern of category names. –

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same office? Are you still a perennial candidate if you run a few times in your 20s and run again for another office when you're 60? Everyone has their definition.

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Knowledge:Categories for discussion/Log/2014 January 23#Category:Counties and county equivalents of the United States with African American majority populations

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category "People Who Love Broccoli." If we don't think someone listed in a category is being accurately represented as lover of broccoli, we address that issue

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into which all of the contents here can fit (fwiw, the category isn't being correctly applied in the first place, it's being used as a list it seems).--

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wrote. Also, when you list sources that use a specific subjective label, you are wilfully ignoring the other sources (possibly more numerous) that did

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Both categories seem substantively the same, except "labor" is more common in North America and "trade union" is more common in the UK and Australia.

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This was a poor discussion that was based on the same specious claim that "we can't evaluate if someone is a perennial candidate or not." We're not.

752: 748:). These are distinct from cover albums, as they're not exactly making tributes to themselves, just re-using compositions given to other musicians. 372:

I don't think we have instances of antarctic cannibalism do we? Normally oceania here at wikipedia does not include antarctica in my experience.--

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use the label and this can create a lot of distortion. For instance, you will have no trouble finding a dozen serious film critics that say that

252: 1820:. By your definition, anything that comes out the door is discontinued. So, if it has an article, it must be in this category. Best regards, 1375: 59: 2408: 4139: 2822: 1236: 3331: 3327: 4011:, as it is too lengthy. Unpopulated places don't generally have majorities, and ethnic majorities tend to be populations anyway. -- 2094: 21: 4127: 2810: 1787:) are no longer in production. If the renamed/repurposed category would need to be reparented this should be in the nomination. 799: 582: 3483:- I don't mind the merge, but given the different forms in different places, it might make sense to do a combined title, like " 3286: 2919: 2479: 1664: 838: 621: 4592: 4135: 3093: 2818: 1274:"). I.e. it's because European countries are small (on a global scale) that being found in such a country is not generally a 4119: 2802: 2552: 2168: 2124: 1397: 4298:

I think it's important to note that all these first sentences using the "perennial candidate" label are all sentences that

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characteristic of a species. Many of the articles are categorised for countries that aren't even mentioned in the text (

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As I've argued elsewhere, "Foo taxa" is more concise than "Taxa of Foo" without sacrificing recognizability or clarity.

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Knowledge:Categories for discussion/Log/2012 July 3#Category:Quebec communities with significant anglophone populations

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the category, we don't need a special category just to track which older versions of software are unsupported.--

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Many insects are found across a large part of Europe so being found in any particular European country is not a

2217:. No clear criterion for inclusion since both "Major" and "National" are very ambiguous terms. We already have 2086: 1509: 1497: 664: 4664: 2510: 3429: 3408: 3335: 4681:

there's no reason to believe that this category can grow much beyond the main article in the near future.

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I suppose I was a little bit lazy, but all of the previous discussions cover it pretty well. 50% is an

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this is part of a much broader discountinued software tree. No need to rename just this branch.--

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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While what happens at other Wikipedias is irrelevant to what happens here, if you look at the

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Knowledge:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2014_May_22#Category:British_Columbia_Military_Units.

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characteristic. Being endemic to a particular region is defining for a species, but we have

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because it's not a proper noun, or some organisation you sign your crime syndicate up to. --

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Category:Populated places in the United States with Italian-American plurality populations‎

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as the page is still not tagged. The new category linked below will be deleted as empty. –

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Knowledge:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2014_April_18#Category:Moths_of_Metropolitan_France

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Knowledge:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2014_April_18#Category:Moths_of_Metropolitan_France

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Category:Populated places in the United States with German-American plurality populations‎

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Category:Populated places in the United States with French-American plurality populations‎

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Category:Populated places in Washington (state) with Native American majority populations‎

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and the only people listed in the category are people identified as perennial candidates

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Category:Populated places in the United States with Native American plurality populations

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Category:Populated places in the United States with Native American majority populations

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Category:Populated places in the United States with Native American majority populations

1738:". Note: The proposed rename would leave this category under a "discontinued" category. 1331: 523:

last year and I think the genera and subfamilies categories should have matching names.

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matters. (Example of collocation: "Red-blooded" is correct, "scarlet-blooded" is not. "

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would be a perfectly good category as it's a distinct island with endemic insects (and

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Category:Populated places in North Carolina with Native American majority populations‎

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abbreviation of category names would get tagged for speedy deletion within an hour. --

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Knowledge:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2013_January_12#Category:Perennial_candidates

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Category:Populated places in South Dakota with Native American majority populations‎

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Category:Populated places in North Dakota with Native American majority populations‎

2366:-- This is a list article sitting in category space. The items listed should be in 1655:. Deletion was suggested but that would be undesirable, removing some articles e.g. 4517: 4261: 3955: 3920: 3853: 3663:

Category:Populated places in Mississippi with Native American majority populations‎

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because the capitalisation of this category matches that of the underlying article

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Works for me. Both courses of action stop propagation of wrong info. Best regards,

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Category:Populated places in New Mexico with Native American majority populations‎

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Category:Populated places in California with Native American majority populations‎

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Category:Populated places in Wisconsin with Native American majority populations‎

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Category:Populated places in Minnesota with Native American majority populations‎

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My initial preference was to delete, but I do see we have a similar structure at

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Category:Populated places in Oklahoma with Native American majority populations‎

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Category:Populated places in New York with Native American majority populations‎

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Category:Populated places in Nebraska with Native American majority populations‎

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Category:Populated places in Michigan with Native American majority populations‎

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Category:Populated places in Colorado with Native American majority populations‎

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Category:Counties of the United States with Native American majority populations

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Category:Singles certified gold by the Recording Industry Association of America

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Category:Populated places in Wyoming with Native American majority populations‎

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Category:Populated places in Montana with Native American majority populations‎

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Category:Populated places in Arizona with Native American majority populations‎

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is this meant to include Australia and Australasia? (that change just happened

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Category:Populated places in Oregon with Native American majority populations‎

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Category:Populated places in Nevada with Native American majority populations‎

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Category:Populated places in Alaska with Native American majority populations‎

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Not typically, and only if the article space page uses the abbreviation, like

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at Cfd. That BlueSalix has added mentions of this to articles is immaterial.

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Category:Populated places in Texas with Native American majority populations‎

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Category:Populated places in Maine with Native American majority populations‎

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Agree with merging articles in the category into Lua-scripted video games. --

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Category:Populated places in Utah with Native American majority populations‎

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Category:Populated places in Idaho with Native American majority populations

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