Knowledge:Categories for discussion/Log/2013 February 4

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architectural style, architect and/or builder), so many editors begin and end their articles at that point. In Iowa, for example, these articles can tell the larger story about Euro-American immigration into the Midwest. Congregational churches tell the story, for the most part, about New Englanders just as the Catholic churches tell the stories of the Irish and Germans, the Lutherans about Germans and Scandinavians, Episcopalians and Methodist about people from the eastern and southern US. These are generalizations and I'm not limiting these immigrant groups to these denominations. Davenport, Iowa had a German Congregational church and a German Methodist church, so the congregation tells the story about the building. Also, because the Congregational Church is still in existence it is a living reality and not an historical curiosity. The choice of architectural style for the building also says something about the congregation and the era that it was built. There are, of course, church buildings where the denomination that built the building no longer occupies it. This may be a bigger problem for naming the article rather than how to categorize it. The Sioux City, Iowa church building is no longer a Congregational church and should not be in the category. The Burlington and Nashua church buildings are still Congregational churches and they belong in the category as it currently exists. Other Congregational church buildings in Iowa, such as First Congregational in Iowa City, are now UCC congregations and they are listed in that category for Iowa. The ancient Christian Church referred to its buildings, which we call churches, as the

1163:. It is true that most churches on WP are only notable for inclusion in the NHRP, but that does not change the fact that an article on X church is about the church as organization as well as its building. Vegas's proposal to split building and church congregation articles is unworkable because there is no reason to have separate articles for churches as organizations from churches as buildings. The articles which are allegedly only about church buildings include in their scope the congregation which built and worship(ed) there, and at some point information about the church as organization may be added there. -- 1783:, the category did not contain ANY United Church of Christ (UCC) churches. It contained three churches; two are affiliated with the National Association of Congregational Christian Churches, and the third is a church building that is now used by a Pentecostal congregation. There was, appropriately, a distinct and separate category for UCC churches in Iowa. Now Doncram has inserted all of the UCC churches into the Congregational churches category (in addition to the UCC category). Notwithstanding the fact that he has not put 396:-- To me "White Russians" refers primarily to Russians who went into exile (or stayed abroad) after the 1917 revolution, becasue they were opposed to the Reds of USSR. ONe of the tragedies of 20th cnetury is that many of these (effectively stateless) people were returned to USSR at end of WWII and were sent straight to the gulags. Not all of these people were members of a political movement, merely exiled for political reasons. 1064:

notable in Knowledge are NRHP-listed. The NRHP-listed ones are just some that are easily documented as notable so they are more fully represented (are relatively over-represented) in Knowledge. Renaming to narrow the categories is hurtful. Let the Knowledge grow to include other non-NRHP-listed ones; be patient, let the categories grow. No benefit to rename or to split. Why pick on Congregational religion, by the way? --

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categories are not robust to the addition of new articles (or the finding of already-existing Knowledge articles) that fit the broader category but not the too-narrow one. And, I further think there's no need to split a pretty small category such as Iowa congregational churches into smaller categories of NRHP ones vs. non-NRHP ones, and UCC vs. non-UCC ones, when there are only 8 churches in the Iowa category. --

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am sure, and in other states, where there is no surviving building (and perhaps no surviving church), for which articles will eventually be created. The NRHP articles are simply among the easiest articles to start; there will be others. So what if the current population of the Vermont articles are all NRHP-listed churches; that doesn't indicate that the category should be deleted or that it should be split. --

1538:. An article about a church building that doesn't discuss the congregation is woefully short of useful information; we should expect articles to cover both and thus put these articles into categories that are menat for both. This problem should be blamed on those who create useless substubs, not on the current collection of categories. The nominator's first sentence is a good reason 1245:

is non denomination and used by multiple religions. Personally on building articles, it is reasonable to list the denomination that built the structure. It is also reasonable to list later denominations that have used the building. This would be the same as listing a second use for a religious building when it is converted to another use.

1462:, the house of the church. The church is the people, the building houses the church. Without the church, the people, the building is just a building (architecturally significant as it may be). It is the people that give the buildings their reason for existing, and they should not be divorced from that reality. 1698: 854: 842: 1457:

Church articles are invariably about the congregations that are housed, or were housed, in the building. Some of the articles are stubs waiting for their fuller stories to be told. It is rather easy to get the basic information about a church building listed on the NRHP in the US (name, date built,

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As it happens, almost all of the articles in these categories are exclusively about the buildings. Most of them are stubs that indicate little more than the fact that the named church is listed on the National Register. The three-article Iowa category is an exception to that generalization. Those two

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There are a number of buildings with multiple uses. As such, they can be in multiple categories. I found in going through thousands of these articles that it is not uncommon for religious building articles to not specify the denomination that worships there. Likewise for others it is clear that it

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if a building is no longer used as a congregational church, but is now say a United Reform Church, should the article even be in this category? Another article I found was on a non-denominational cemetary chapel. Not all chapels have a functional and denominated religious organization behind them.

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For the record, there were already a couple of other churches in these categories that aren't listed on the National Register. Additionally, there are several existing articles about current or former Congregational churches that aren't on the National Register and aren't on Doncram's list or in his

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By separate articles I meant that having building and congregation categories would mean we'd have to decide whether an article is about a building or a congregation, so separate types of articles. I'm saying that's not necessary because the articles are almost always going to include both things in

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I picked the Congregationalists simply because they were the first case I looked at. And while there is some theoretical possibility of notable congregations in unimportant buildings, I note that every Vermont article is about an NRHP listing, and it's a very safe bet that every other article in the

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for explanation how lists, categories, and navigation templates are complementary. Articles about churches are typically about either or both the church as a congregation and history that pre-dates and spans use of individual buildoings, and the church as a building. Not all U.S. churches that are

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These are mostly categories of NHRP (US) or Listed (UK) buildings, not congregations. As a rule, churches are not otherwise found worthy of articles. There is no system within these two projects for categorizing church buildings by denomination, but it would be obviously useful to do so. Therefore I

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to some extent. Personally I'd clamp down on a lot of the emigrants from historical entities, it just gets messy and a bit OC-ish trying to keep up with the history of the Balkans, Italy, Germany or the African colonies. Stick with the modern names of the country, then add separate categories for eg

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per nom. However, I am dubious about having a category for "stage actors" at all, because it is the nature of this overcroweded profession that many actors will take any work offered, so that they may do a run as a stage actor, then do a film and then appear in a TV drama. Another difficulty with

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such a categorization could be justified. Until those articles exist, the possibility remains only a possibility. My experience with various discussions here is that parish articles do not generally survive deletion discussions; only building articles do, because architectural notability has clear,

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It's not theoretical, there are notable churches of every denomination that have modern buildings, notable for their activity/size/congregations or notable for the modern (non-NRHP-eligible) architecture of their buildings. Also there were historically notable Congregational churches in Vermont, I

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Although churches are notable if they are listed, they are not automatically regarded as non-notable if they are not listed. I'm worried that the proposer does not understand the difference between a church congregation and Congregational Churches, which applies to the congregations. It may be an

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I support the renames for the reasons stated which I agree are valid for the vast majority of the affected articles. For the cases where you have a limited number of articles that should be in two trees then the articles can be in both. It appears that most of the oppose votes are of the mind set

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I am sure several participants here are well-meaning in trying to make category names be descriptive. But the proposals to narrow categories so that their titles are more fully descriptive of the current contents of the category but allowing for no other types, seems to me not helpful. Too-narrow

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and included in the category. I just added Iowa churches to the List and/or to the category so there are 8 now, rather than just 3 showing in the category before. And a subsequent specific proposal above to narrow the Iowa category also does not work, i think: i think the proposal was to revise

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I'm not entirely certain of the protocol here, however, I'll write this here and whatever comes of it, so be it. I fully agree that the Iowa category should be changed to "Congregational Christian churches in Iowa." It is more accurate than the current title and therefore makes complete sense. I

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has merit as a separate building-focused category. Most of the articles in this category are focused on the church buildings, so almost all could be slotted in that category (or subcats); many also could go into a churches-by-denomination category, if the actual denomination can be determined. For

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Nyttend, the fact is that most of these articles don't talk much about the congregation because most of the information about these buildings comes from NHRP nominations, which tend to only care about what it took to get the building constructed. If one is lucky there may be some data on a parish

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these categories, even though they address the same kinds of articles. These categories remain, for the most part, about buildings, and doncram, given that that the lists you assembled are focused on buildings (since they relate to NHRP listings) I could for the sake of wasting more time on it

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into this category (presumably because the name of the church doesn't include the word "Congregational"), Doncram's categorization decision underlines my perception that the categories he has built -- and that are under discussion here -- are categories for church buildings that were built as

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is an exception in that the articles are fairly substantial; almost all of the other articles in these categories are still minimal stubs that are solely about buildings. This is why I propose renaming the Iowa category as a category for Congregational Christian churches in Iowa. Many other

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the U.S. church buildings, I oppose the use of "National Register of Historic Places" in the category name, largely because I've worked on some articles for notable Congregational church buildings that aren't listed (or aren't individually listed) on the National Register (for example,

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The question of whether we should have categories for "churches" or "church buildings" has been discussed at CFD many times over the last few years. The debates have usually been lengthy (and sometimes heated), and their outcomes have been inconsistent. Isn't it time for a

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no longer works even temporarily. The same problem applies to the other suggested renames, they are not robust to the continued addition of new articles and to the development of existing articles to cover more about their congregations and non-building-related aspects.

2741: 311:. Some of them deserve the activist get-out, but I'm not sure that activism is relevant to emigration. I completely understand that if you are going to do an opinion-based emigration category then the White Russians would be at the front of the line for an exemption to 334:

Maybe; but it does have the benefit of allowing us to avoid direct categorization of many people as a "Soviet" emigrants, when those people are never described in reliable sources as "Soviet" anything and they certainly would not have self-identified as such.

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What nonsense. If you know about a church that should be in the Congregational churches in Iowa category, put it there. If you are intending to be funny or sarcastic or critical or whatever, I don't get it. Update: I just added, as you should have, the

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for churches (such as two churches in Iowa) that belong to the National Association of Congregational Christian Churches. Additionally, though, because there are architectural similarities in many of the historic buildings identified as "Congregational",

1749:. The original specific proposal about renaming the Iowa Congregational churches in Iowa category also does not work, because there is at least one non-NRHP-listed one among the 8 notable Iowa Congregational churches now covered in the corresponding 1500:; my proposal would give similar treatment to Congregational Christian churches, while retaining a separate category for "Congregational" church buildings (including those of churches whose actual denominational affiliation is not yet determined). -- 237: 1788:

Congregational churches. Accordingly, the best name for these categories is "Congregational church buildings". Once the categories are renamed, additional categorization may be needed to correctly classify the various churches by denomination. --

1348: 1391: 1341: 2971:, knowing of two museums of her in the city. Nobody noticed and helped, and just now i added a short info on the 2nd one. On a website dedicated to the poet there is a list of her museums and memorial places in Russia and Ukraine - see 1090:

US tree is of the same ilk. Besides, the utility of dividing the NRHP listings by denominational family (or religion) is obvious: the "religious function" categories are huge. If we did this as a split off instead of as a rename, most "

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But them we would disrupt the standard x emigrant to y form of the categories. I would rather lump them all under the Imperial Russian category and assume they have enough connection to Imperial Russia to count than use a non-standard

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since it may be the logical top level category in this area. If there is a better choice please clue us in. It is correct for an article to be in both a building and congregation category when both are well covered in the article.

241: 2385: 307:. I think the thing to remember is that "White Russian" isn't a nationality or an ethnicity in the same way as "the standard x emigrant to y form of the categories" - in fact White Russian categories come close to a breach of 3001: 1330: 2376: 1780: 1319: 2764: 2677: 1754:

the Iowa category to make it specifically about only UCC churches in Iowa, but there is a one that is specifically NOT a UCC church, that voted NOT to join the UCC, and which is NRHP-listed and wikipedia-notable. --

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guideline supports having corresponding list-articles and categories. Since the list-article is kept, it makes sense to keep the corresponding category. I think this CFD is ready to be closed with KEEP decision.

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I do understand the difference, and I would invite examination of the articles in verification of the fact that they are almost all (and in the case of the American categories, exclusively) about church buildings.

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The only issue with that name is that as far as I know, it's quite rare and unusual to describe these people in this way. It's much more common to call them White Russians (or White émigrés, if they left Russia.)

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is clearly about the organization, it tells us when the organization was formed but not when the building was built. Building categories may be useful, but renaming the current ones to such would just create

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Orlady asks me for clarification; sorry for being unclear. Basically, I'm saying "What we have right now is better than anything else that's been proposed, so let's leave everything where it is right now".

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a.k.a. First Bible Missionary Church one, into the Iowa Congregational churches category. I don't enjoy any of this interaction, and wish that someone would close this whole proposal as obviously invalid.

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website with a list of rectors/pastors or the like, but by and large there's precious little to work with. There's little notable in the history of most congregations; the exceptions tend to be places like

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As long as both are discussed in the article, if can be categorized as both. If an article only includes one of these in its current state, then it should only be in one category and not both.

375: 304: 291: 156: 3022:, without prejudice to-creation if and when there are at least 6 articles to to place in the category. I doubt that there are likily to be enough such articles in the near future, so this fits 610: 2435: 2155: 2151: 2610: 2542: 393: 1992: 2367: 139:

has several meanings, one of which is people from Belarus. (That meaning was common in the days of the Russian Empire.) This category is for people who were supporters or members of the

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some of these is whether they refer to a person working in Northern Ireland or of that ethnic origin (but working elsewhere). Perhpas an "in" format would be better than "from".

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Although I'd hope that any closing admin would read your comments to the end, there is a danger that you would be seen to be supportive of the deletion, which you're clearly not.

2322: 2261: 1607: 1361: 1291: 1254: 1056: 419: 2529: 2586: 1277: 1239: 801: 2602: 2085: 339: 329: 218: 209: 3127: 1390:). I haven't looked carefully enough at the UK category to form a strong opinion, but for consistency with the U.S. category structure I favor, I'd recommend renaming it to 693: 587: 183: 3106:. This is not a proposal to delete/rename/split/merge the category, so it doesn't belong at CFD. The nominator may want to take up the suggestion of asking the question at 3043: 2959: 3160: 2890: 2274:

and is subcats, I share those concerns about the merits of categorising actors by medium. But if that concern is to be pursued, it requires a separate group nomination. --

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am proposing to repurpose these categories to such a scheme, deleting the extraneous categories in the process. This is a trial run for doing this to other denominations.

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for articles about the churches as churches. The creation of a parallel category for those few articles that are solely about the buildings does not require a CfD. –

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to get rid of current categories — because "These are mostly categories of NHRP (US) or Listed (UK) buildings, not congregations", where will you put the exceptions?

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Connecticut church articles (i.e., Litchfield and Old Lyme) that I linked in my comment haven't ever been included in this category, but they are properly included in

1080: 3008: 1483:- Ideally, what you say would be true. However, the reality is that most of the articles in the U.S. categories discussed here are short stubs about buildings (e.g., 1403: 1043: 962: 898: 710: 2919: 2648: 2575: 1570: 908:. I have argued in the past that the vast majority of articles in these trees are about the buildings and not the congregations. I would rather think of this as a 118: 110: 3148: 2984: 1895: 1824: 1797: 1737: 1652: 1593: 1147: 1125: 1103: 480: 442: 253: 2445:

as an uncontroversial cleanup. The right parenthesis appears to be a typo, and since there are no articles in the category, there's really no need for debate. --

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Vegaswikian, your statement supportive of splitting seems to indicate that your !vote is Oppose the deletion of the categories, not to Support deletion of them. --

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who clearly worked within the White Movement, but she died in 1920 in Russia. Thus we cannot rename it to emigres without removing articles that clearly belong.

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since the proposal is simply using the bot to do the bulk move and then following up with a manual population/creation of a congregation tree as needed. I do

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As I said, it's probably something we want to tackle after a name is settled here. What we choose might well vary considerably depending on whether we select

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It would be best to tackle that issue once this discussion is resolved. "White émigrés to FOO" might also work, given the article about those people is at

2040: 294:. Personally, I think White Russian émigrés are sufficiently different than ordinary emigrants from the Russian Empire to warrant separate subcategories. 2271: 2186: 2139: 1515:

also thinks this makes sense for any other states as well. Those articles can be developed to add the additional information about the congregations.

244:, or figure out some other name from those who emigrated between the fall of the Czar in early 1917 and the establishments of the Soviet Union in 1922. 2803:, the county limits of San Francisco, and the City limits of San Francisco are the same, so there really is no difference that I am aware of (see the 1690: 1497: 2478: 1954: 2786:

SF County should very rarely be used. excellent accident. if merged, make sure all the supporting comments found at the county cat are moved over.

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to seek wider input on this question, and try to build a stable consensus rather than re-hashing the same debate again and again at CFD? --

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renominate the lists for renaming to lists of buildings, to which all the same complaints I made the first time around would still apply.

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of the winners in the individual award categories a month ago. The award itself has notibility issues (at least based on the issue tag on

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most people call it "San Francisco" anyway and the new cat name can be used to categorize all Bay Area request photos - Also it matches

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seems to be a good variant. Other categories containing "White Russians" in their titles should probably go through CfD individually.—

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There may be some confusion here. At the time that this discussion started and also when I suggested renaming the Iowa category to

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per the above - I'll create the new required category, and remove the existing one from its wrong place in the hierarchy. Thanks.

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as containers for that Iowa category and any other Congregational Christian churches that are lurking in the corners of Knowledge.

21: 2389: 1970: 101: 3122: 3038: 2996:, as this isn't not a proper name and could cause confusion, as indicated by the fact, that a user nominated the category at 2723: 2524: 2430: 2397: 2286: 2219: 2170: 2108: 796: 582: 2381: 59: 2915:, only one page in the category. Doesn't need to be merged to the other parent categories, as article is already in them. 2968: 2594: 2116: 1693:, which seems clearly Knowledge-notable, and is a Vermont church that is not NRHP-listed. So the sub-proposal to rename 1689:

I do think this has been discussed enough for the outcome to be clear. But, for what it is worth, i created new article

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Also, some articles are entirely about the buildings and tell us nothing of any organization that may use the building.

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has been closed with "No consensus" decision that keeps the list-article. As several persons have pointed out, the

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idea to create listed building categories - but this is probably best done manually and on a case by case basis.

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My rationale: The denominational term "Congregational" lacks clear meaning (as I indicated in my comments at the

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That happens quite a bit though on Knowledge, with the rare version being used for Wiki-related reasons such as

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Rename to White movement. It might not be standard, but it accurately describes the contents of this category.

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This category already had another nomination for upmerging. It seems irregular to open a second nomination.

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This is a category, not an article, the resultant category would still be confusable with Belorussians. --

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whose NHRP listing is incidental to the history of the place; but these are very few and far between.

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as a rather minor award that is not a defining characteristic of those who have received the award.

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To be clear, not all the United Kingdom congregational churches are Listed buildings (e.g. not the

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To match the rest of the hierarchy. Category only has two members (one of which I've just added).

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Category:Congregational church buildings in Vermont on the National Register of Historic Places

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Category:Congregational church buildings in Vermont on the National Register of Historic Places

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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it can't stay where it is, since it isn't about Belorussians, or variants on the cocktail. --

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Category:Congregational church buildings in Iowa on the National Register of Historic Places

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True, but I see no reason to do that here, when the common name is perfectly do-able.

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Category:Congregational church buildings on the National Register of Historic Places

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I had not realised there was this distinction. I now see it is also a subcat of

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So you would not have an objection to using a building category as appropriate?

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their scope, even if they currently only include information about one thing. --

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of them have reasons to object, but this seems the least-bad of the bunch. -

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Category:Knowledge requested photographs in San Francisco County, California

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Having been busying myself with recategorising a few thousand articles into

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