2750:(with question 2 being to work with the WMF before implementing the previous RfC). The brief preamble specifically cited Superprotect and Media Viewer Consultation as critical background to consider, in case anyone was unaware of the conflict. "Reaffirming" the previous RfC was specifically so that people could Oppose to avoid conflict with the WMF (even if they Supported the original RfC), so that people could Support in order to demand respect for a standing community consensus on the issue despite risk of conflict with the WMF (even if they Opposed the original RfC), so that people could consider the Media Viewer Consultation outcome to have invalidated the previous RfC, or any other relevant concerns in a complex and highly charged situation. And yes, it left people free to Affirm or Reject the previous RfC for the same pro/con Media Viewer reasons that established the first RfC.
2617:- I give weight to arguments, so everything is considered, however those repeating arguments (ie. per X, y and z), or stating rational, get less weight than the original point, although I still considered them. Until we can get wider participation in this sort of debate, in any case, consensus will always be hard to judge, but that is another kettle of fish entirely. In this case, I read the whole discussion, and my overall judgement was no consensus. I have self reviewed that since you came here, and my decision has not since changed. I've asked a couple of uninvolved (or as uninvolved as you can get anyway) editors to take a look at this on IRC, and they broadly agree with me about the close. --
2875:, because I wanted to promote a positive constructive atmosphere between us. I find your latest behavior to be unacceptably rude. We were engaged in dialog and you obviously knew I was expecting a response to my last post. If you considered my last comment unworthy of discussion, that's fine. But a minimum I believe it warranted a note informing me you were done. For several days I was patiently and actively checking in here looking for your response, and you wasted my time. You simply ceased responding to me or anyone else. You clearly have no interest in further discussion. To avoid wasting any more of my time I am accepting you invitation to move this discussion to
2596:
shows that some people think one policy is controlling, and some another, the decider is expected to close by judging which view has the predominant number of responsible
Wikipedians supporting it, not personally select which is the better policy. He or she is not expected to decide the issue, just to judge the result of the debate, and is expected to know policy sufficiently to know what arguments are to be excluded as irrelevant. If the consensus of reasonable arguments is opposite to the closer's view, he or she is expected to decide according to the consensus. The closer is not to be a judge of the issue, but rather of the argument.
864:, in two ways. First, how handle permissions on 4500 or so past uploads. I don't do bots, but you do. One challenge is that I looked at some of the most recent uploads, which are Pd image, so it isn't as simple as tagging all uploads. There may be a way to distinguish, but I want to see if you have time/willingness before taking the next step. The uploader also asked about future uploads. Someone recently posted how to create a custom template to handle that, and I will look at that later today.--
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2802:, I initiated the latest RfC so you know I'm not your enemy. The closer is not part of the WMF, he's just a editor who happens to view Media Viewer as beneficial. I would like to make an effort at positive discussion with him. As a favor, I request you remove your hostile comment here. If you do remove your comment then I request that you remove this comment (mine) at the same time.
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that in the responses then I am willing to point out samples or go over them systematically. The community had a clear consensus that the original RfC stands as valid and that the original RfC should be held to even at the risk of WMF disapproval. The question two responses were slim, but they support trying to work with the WMF before implementing the original RfC.
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2827:'s incredible decision to ignore clear consensus and claim none exists as pretense for closing the RfC in manner seen could be interpreted by a reasonable person assuming good faith as a sign of astonishing incompetence, or something else entirely. It leaves one gob-smacked, because, despite this user's farcical claims otherwise, "
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In any case, I've spoken to someone in the WMF since, and was told whatever happened with MV, they stand by their previous statements that MV is here to stay. I'm not saying continuing this is a waste of time, but nothing useful is likely to cone from this, and risks causing more drama than it's worth. --
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When I have hostile comments made towards me, I think its more than fair to disengage. Last time this happened, any responded I made were turned against me, so I decided disengaging would be the best way to stop this escalating. Just to clarify, I have no plans to revert or radically change my close.
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have been closed as no consensus before; Before a major software change, we really need 70% or more support. I also took the statement from the WMF into account in the close, but gave it less weight in my decision then the communities votes when I closed the discussion. Of course, if you want further
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Just wanted to drop a note and say thank you. I have tried to point out to these people, many times, that the removal of the tag does NOT mean that all discussion on POV issues on the talk page cease. I expect we will still discuss those matters, as dozens of editors on dozens of hot-button article
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The community was no longer concerned with the question of whether there was a consensus for Media Viewer opt-in or opt-out. (The question you closed on). The dilemma the community needed to resolve was what to do when the community had in hand a resolved and overwhelming RfC, and what to do with it
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There is no indication that vast numbers of support arguments should be discarded. Responsible
Wikipedians considered the issues. Considered the WMF statement. Considered the changes that were made in Media Viewer and promised future changes. Debated. Two thirds (a very predominant 2-to-1) reached a
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Hi Mdann. I have reopened the section you hatted re disruptive editing at ANI. The last edit before your hatting was from an editor attempting to find information he had been asked for by others. He said " I will find the exact link where the admin said he felt threatened. Give me a minute please.".
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Huge numbers of responses clearly did not view the RfC as re-litigating the case but as holding to the original outcome, and/or giving arguments wholly or partially directed to whether the original outcome continues to stand as valid, and/or the issue of community-WMF conflict. If you're not seeing
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As I have said on other issues in the past, sometimes the easiest way to resolve these issues is to ban one or two people from the article; I think this would help quieten cases such as this down a lot quicker. Anyway, let's see how this goes; the full protection will give some time for discussion,
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Drama is only created by those who wish to create drama. The tag is designed to bring attention to the issues; As the tag has been present for quite a while now, and the claims are still going back and forth, as an outside observer, the consensus and common sense approach is to remove it. It's like
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The closer is there to judge the consensus of the community, after discarding irrelevant arguments: those that flatly contradict established policy, those based on personal opinion only, those that are logically fallacious, those that show no understanding of the matter of issue. If the discussion
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Did I ever say you were making hostile comments? Per your own admission, there was one further up this thread, so I'm trying to disengage to prevent any more. You might be wise to do the same; the WMF has made it clear that disabling MW is not an option, so persuing this further is just going to
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I was wondering if you could help with my page, it's the first time I'm trying to post an article on Wiki and it seems rather difficult. So first of all you mentioned you did some cleaning up already, I'm afraid I can't see the differences, so perhaps you could provide more details about that in
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I was wondering if you could help with my page, it's the first time I'm trying to post an article on Wiki and it seems rather difficult. So first of all you mentioned you did some cleaning up already, I'm afraid I can't see the differences, so perhaps you could provide more details about that in
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with the meaningless rationale "photosubmission", orphaning the original image and go through the process of nominating it for speedy deletion, unless you were really offended by the existing image, but that seems a stretch. I can gather no motivation to revert this set of edits and hold you to
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It wasn't an accusation, I was considering if I had missed something. I was thinking that if I had made hostile comments then it would be fair for you to disengage with me. If someone else makes hostile comments then I do not feel it was fair to disengage-me-without-notice. It helps that I now
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Before the RfC the community had in hand an uncontested RfC with a staggering 93% support to set Media Viewer to opt-in for logged in users, and overwhelming 83% support to set it opt-in for logged out users. Implementing that RfC was diverted when the WMF instituted
Superprotect, retracted
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For me, policy supported arguements are given more weight in determining consensus in cases such as this. Also, when evidence of a problem is lacking (ie. The point about the tag being there for ages without anything really being done) led me to believe there was no case for retention.
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to see what you'll be answering. If you're still interested after doing that, leave a note here and I'll submit the nomination form and let you know that it's up so that you can go in, make your opening statement, and answer the questions. Thank you for considering this. Best regards,
806:. The Reichenau glosses are dated there early 15th century. Sincd 1906, however, this dating has been corrected, and subsequent authors consider the glosses as a having been derived from Olai. I added a reference to the literature. I would appreciate if you could undo your 'undoing'.
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Would you please explain to me by how you are defining consensus? That thread had a majority of users, including uninvolved users such as myself, favoring a keeping of the tag. I can understand a "policy trumps consensus" view, but I don't understand how that can be viewed as a
1351:
Hi, thanks for the feedback on this page last month. Until more independent links can be sourced, do you think it would be acceptable if I resubmitted a much more edited down version so that the content that remains does not rely too heavily on the subject's own web pages?
2002:(after Mdann52 removed the copyvio) you'll see the highlighted text is only 2-3 word phrases (which can't be simplified any further). You are more than welcome to re-add the text Mdann52 removed, provided you write it yourself and don't directly copy from other sites.
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my main changes were formatting links so they rendered properly; Your formatting caused them to break. Unfortunately, it appears this is not sutable at all for
Knowledge, as it seems to read like an essay into the subject, as opposed to an encyclopedic article.
956:, asking them the dates they uploaded the files in question between? I've started looking at it, but it appears to be a muddle. I've already written the code to resolve this one, so just need to get a BRFA passed over on Commons, and all should be fine. --
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page in MediaWiki. This strange closure is imho against the communities, not at all as forceful as the extremely hostile actions by the WMF against the communities in enWP and deWP show their utter contempt towards the community, but not warranted.
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The POV discussion is as recent as today and it took me less than a minute to find it. Note that the talk page is archived at a 1 to 2 day interval and all topics are active within a day. The tag was not within the pervue of ANI, rather
2553:
To a degree, yes. However, most of the arguments presented in this RfC and the previous one are identical on both sides, so I gave the more recent RfC more weight, especially considering the changes made since the original discussion.
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2879:. I am going to take some time drafting and improving my request for review on your close. I'm more concerned with making a high quality review request than a hasty review request. I will notify you when the request is submitted.
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It's probably also noting the consensus is not to implement this at this time; This should not detract from the previous discussion. The only consensus here is not to implement at this time. I can clarify this if you wish.
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If you are implying that I have have infringed upon a copyright, please cite verifiable evidence to support your claim so that I can correct alleged issues or kindly cease and desist with unfounded remarks. Sincerely,
888:
I can sort out both bits if you want. The first can be sorted by skipping any pages with a pd tag on, which should be easy enough with a spot of regex. I can also do the second if you wish. What ticket number is this?
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I am genuinely curious what you think of my reasoning. I regret that we were unable to get a full discussion going, SƤnger was rather unhelpful. I would like to aim for a discussion or disagreement at
1998:(the last instance of the page before Mdann52 removed the text), which shows the article contained a fair amount of text (highlighted for convenience) that was directly copied. When you redo the check
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talk pages do every day. All the tag removal means is that the initial "there are POV issues so serious that we must get more input immediately" phase is over; 5 weeks was enough. Thanks again.
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and hopefully this one has made your day better. You can spread the WikiLove by giving someone else a cookie, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend.
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The rules for plurals in translations changed in some languages. Interface translations are currently not being updated from translatewiki.net; this process will start again on
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3069:, so as it was the "photo submissions" address, I tagged it as such. Normally, I link back to the ticket, however I seem to have not done so in this instance, but I will do so now. --
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Yes, you are correct that the tag hasn't driven consensus but it also hasn't solved the POV dispute that still obviously exists. Removing the tag really just creates more drama. --
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provide justification for them which would have been appropriate, I'll only suggest that maybe in the future you might seek to spend your time on more constructive edits.
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You may see a new tool on the mobile site of the
English Knowledge. It asks simple questions to make the article better. In the future, your answers will go to Wikidata.
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No consensesĀ != clear conclusion. A major change in software, be it enabling or disabling, needs a clear consensus, which is usually judged as 70%+ approval. I have not
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The style and insert menus in the toolbar of VisualEditor now show fewer tools. This helps you see the most common tasks. You can see all items by clicking "More".
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I've been doing this on and off, and am having some difficulty with it, due to the issues RedRose flagged up. I'll play around a bit more before giving up though. --
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Whether or not it was the "right venue" is irrelevant. A wider consensus has emerged, and with no real fixes in a month, it seems the tag is not doing it's job. --
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Issues with the new search tool caused geo data code to show up on pages on Monday and Friday. The mobile "nearby" tool was also broken. The problem is now fixed.
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I would happily apply, yes. Hopefully, my experience in this field both on-wiki and in real life (although often informally) would be useful to the committee. --
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2501:, and because of this, I consider the arguements presented; Not just vote count. Consensus on Knowledge is not judged just on vote counts. Also, 2-1 results at
2451:
Baselessly? Are you kidding? If you think they was any kind of consensus, then you need to read it more carefully. I absolutely endorse the no consensus close.
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Did you consider the arguments presented in the original RfC? This RfC was basically asking, "Do you still agree with that?" Two to one, the answer was yes. --
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If you disregarded people repeating arguments ("per X, y and z"), did you also disregard repeating the argument that it should be kept "for the readers"? --
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The community had a clear consensus that the original RfC stands as valid and that the original RfC should be held to even at the risk of WMF disapproval.
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1702:) has been on test wikis and MediaWiki.org since November 5. It will be on non-Knowledge wikis from November 11, and on all Wikipedias from November 12 (
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There was an issue with files from
Commons on October 21. You could only see those with names between 140 and 159 characters by visiting Commons itself.
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the red flags were raised for me as the article seems to also refer to
Albania, so I thought it was a generic page (that issue has since been fixed). --
1087:) has been on test wikis and MediaWiki.org since October 29. It will be on non-Knowledge wikis from November 4, and on all Wikipedias from November 5 (
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716:) has been on test wikis and MediaWiki.org since October 23. It will be on non-Knowledge wikis from October 28, and on all Wikipedias from October 29 (
568:) has been on test wikis and MediaWiki.org since October 16. It will be on non-Knowledge wikis from October 21, and on all Wikipedias from October 23 (
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Fair enough. I don't edit the article and occasionally edit the talk page. You are correct that the tag isn't helping resolve the dispute. --
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Please consider this formal notification per
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after the WMF first blocked then apologized and then returned control to the community with a request to work together before making changes.
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When he returned he found himself shut out. He surely has the right to provide the information and present it with the request it refers to.
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I took a long time writing and re-writing this. Chuckle. The issue is that you did not close on question that was asked and debated at RfC.
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and read the Policy, the Procedures, and the Guide linked from that page in the top bar. Once you've done that, you need to take a look at
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After reading them, I'm still happy to stand. I will draft the answers as soon as possible, so this can be put up as soon as possible. --
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1956:, consider this a notification that Mdann52 is acting well within his rights to remove copyrighted material from Knowledge, as it is
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Also, 'grats on your nomination to the MedCom. Also, seeing as I'm already here, note that I replied to your note on my talk page.
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You can now use more editing tools for tables in VisualEditor. You can add rows and columns, merge cells, and edit table captions.
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Yes, that sounds like a step in the right direction. If you want a hand with this, drop me a note, and I will see what I can do. --
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from the Wikimedia technical community. Please tell other users about these changes. Not all changes will affect you. You can read
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Superprotect with a message from the WMF director returning javascript control to the community and requesting that the community
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from the Wikimedia technical community. Please tell other users about these changes. Not all changes will affect you.
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article is written with similar if not the same grounds. Looking to hearing back from you. Thanks for your attention.
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from the Wikimedia technical community. Please tell other users about these changes. Not all changes will affect you.
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from the Wikimedia technical community. Please tell other users about these changes. Not all changes will affect you.
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will come to the last wikis in the coming weeks. This includes Knowledge in French, Chinese, German and English.
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Hi Mdann52. I was wondering how things were progressing on this. Is there anything I can do to assist? Regards.
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tagging an article for more references when none exist; It's kinder to either AfD it, or not bother tagging. --
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Although note I still have to clean up a small issue regarding a mismatch of copyright holder and emailer.--
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The icons in VisualEditor's template editor tool for adding more fields are back, along with other fixes.
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The way windows inside VisualEditor work has changed. VisualEditor should be faster and have fewer bugs.
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clear conclusion on the issue. I do not think "no consensus" is an accurate summary of a clear outcome.
550:. If you use Internet Explorer 6, you won't be able to log in any more. You should use a newer browser.
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with dubious licensing template and otherwise incorrect information and replace a preexisting one
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If you add the same parameter twice in a template, it now puts the page in a tracking category.
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If you didn't see it in the edit summaries, my apologies for initially reverting you, Mdann52.
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I came here and tried to discuss this with you constructively, like we're supposed to. I even
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As I have not got any notifications of you reverting me, I guess I didn't even notice.... --
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but unless new points are brought up, I believe this may go on for a long time yet.... --
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Wikimedia Labs was broken for a few hours on Thursday. It was due to a hardware problem.
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There was a problem with cut and paste in VisualEditor in Firefox. It was fixed quickly.
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I am lost on how to procede and make it better for publishing, could you please advise?
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1402:? I'm Chairperson there and would nominate you if you are interested. Best regards,
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you when someone jumped in angrily. I requested that he remove his hostile comment
2468:, If someone goes ahead and makes the edit, are you going to support that there is
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If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the
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If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the
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states there are specific avenues for disputes and ANI is not one of them. --
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Hello Mdann52. I don't particularly understand why you would upload an image
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understand why you disengaged, but I shouldn't have taken collateral damage.
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There was a problem with editing math in VisualEditor. It was fixed quickly.
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cause a lot of drama with no possible outcome apart from the status quo. --
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Ok, that will be fine. On another note, is it possible for you to reply to
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You can add badges in Wikidata for quality articles and featured lists.
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explination, feel free to come back, but as the RfC's author, it would
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this week to learn more about the file cleanup project. One will be on
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10% of logged-out readers are getting pages from servers that run the
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You are more than welcome to continue making quality contributions to
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1026:". That way, you know it's to cite the page, not to add a reference.
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to help tools read file information. It will help people reuse files.
207:
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for you to revert the close (I would not if I had started a RfC). --
1776:
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tool. HHVM should make pages load faster. You can also test it as a
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work together with us before making changes to site-wide JavaScript
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If you would like to help us improve this process, please consider
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particular and then in general about making it sutable for Wiki.
269:
particular and then in general about making it sutable for Wiki.
202:, which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.
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if you feel my close is inappropriate, feel free to raise it at
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VisualEditor's menu items now show their shortcuts beside them.
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NOTICE: I have completed my review request and submitted it at
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The files missing readable data are also in these categories:
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The copyright holder requested the file was uploaded via the
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Hi, I have sent you a message a while ago regarding my draft
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now shows information in a nice format. You can translate it
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WP:Administrators'_noticeboard#Close_Review_Media_Viewer_RfC
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at any timeĀ by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.
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Good deal. If you've not done so already, you need to go to
1210:
192:
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Would you be interested in applying for membership on the
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13:06:07, 5 November 2014 review of submission by Herongor
1071:
HHVM caused server issues on Thursday. They are now fixed.
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If you have any questions, you are welcome to ask at the
1667:
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Dispute resolution noticeboard#India Against Corruption
641:
Knowledge:Featured picture candidates/Pembroke College
210:. Note that because you are a logged-in user, you can
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which I have left on the filing user's talk page and
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means reverts like this are less likely to happen. --
741:
VisualEditor now opens faster when you click "edit".
1958:
against the rules to directly copy from other sites
2739:, and instituted a Community Consultation Process.
515:missing machine-readable information on your wiki.
3098:All right. Thank you for the expanded rationale.
2748:Should we reaffirm and implement the previous RfC
1797:To spread the goodness of cookies, you can add {{
1528:Knowledge:Mediation_Committee/Nominations/Mdann52
1102:tag in these templates instead to add the icons.
2029:. Also noted at the ANI thread you just closed.ā
294:"EU research and innovation for the environment"
261:"EU research and innovation for the environment"
2701:yes, I gave that less weight as it went on. --
2436:dismissing a 2-to-1 result as "no consensus".
1866:EU research and innovation for the environment
1465:Knowledge:Mediation_Committee/Nominations/Form
1223:Montenegro in the Eurovision Song Contest 2015
472:You can test a new system to see math using
1207:Belgium in the Eurovision Song Contest 2015
1201:Belgium in the Eurovision Song Contest 2015
727:for templates if they are in TemplateData.
2589:, but I'd rather deal with this amicably.
2053:is the policy that governs content. That
1819:Hello, Mdann52. You have new messages at
1666:You can see a list of files to fix on the
1127:After November 6, all wikis will have the
2924:Are you accusing me of hostile comments?
243:Thank you for helping improve Knowledge!
1670:. You can report bugs and ask questions
14:
2615:disregarded the majority of keep votes
1646:help robots understand the information
120:Do not edit the contents of this page.
44:Do not edit the contents of this page.
2768:I've posted a hint to the RfC on the
646:Could you close this for me? Thanks!
2593:is exactly what I was referring to.
2000:with the current version of the page
1903:Thank UĀ ! sir for your help. Ā :-) --
1205:Hello Mdann52. You undid my work in
802:Hi Mdann52, you undid my changes in
101:
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821:OK, thanks for clarifying; using
2585:I note your invitation to go to
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1767:15:00, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
1696:The new version of MediaWiki (
1081:The new version of MediaWiki (
710:The new version of MediaWiki (
562:The new version of MediaWiki (
480:and choose "ā§¼mw math mathmlā§½".
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1039:. It caused issues with the
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941:15:16, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
914:13:55, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
876:13:52, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
850:21:46, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
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423:16:42, 17 October 2014 (UTC)
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366:16:37, 17 October 2014 (UTC)
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256:22:21, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
200:New Zealand Music Commission
185:New Zealand Music Commission
7:
2338:I don't think your edit to
1530:. Good luck! Best regards,
1043:. It will come back later.
804:Swiss Swedish origin legend
798:Swiss Swedish Origin Legend
372:Bot to fix "bgcolor" markup
10:
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1691:Software changes this week
1567:this long-term abuse entry
1076:Software changes this week
1031:You can no longer use the
700:Software changes this week
2508:probably be inappropriate
1783:Lixxx235 has given you a
1642:help fix file information
1129:tool to edit TemplateData
3012:, rather than a battle.
2746:The question at RfC was
1759:Subscribe or unsubscribe
1657:Wednesday at 18:00 (UTC)
1634:File information cleanup
1189:Subscribe or unsubscribe
786:Subscribe or unsubscribe
628:Subscribe or unsubscribe
492:File information cleanup
236:leaving us some feedback
212:create articles yourself
2432:!vote, but I object to
1661:Thursday at 04:00 (UTC)
1606:Recent software changes
1013:Recent software changes
954:Ticket:2014091710035746
919:ticket:2014102710013186
2428:Media Viewer RfC Close
2342:was what you meant to
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216:Articles for Creation
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181:Articles for creation
118:of past discussions.
42:of past discussions.
2591:The policy you cited
1821:Lixxx235's talk page
1624:in translatewiki.net
1024:Special:CiteThisPage
2786:superputsch must go
1561:For background see
1400:Mediation Committee
1394:Mediation committee
546:Developers fixed a
506:how to fix metadata
179:Your submission at
1853:Ping when replying
1828:remove this notice
1818:
1790:! Cookies promote
1781:
1640:Reminder: You can
1585:Tech News: 2014-46
992:Tech News: 2014-45
808:Otto S. Knottnerus
657:Tech News: 2014-44
446:Tech News: 2014-43
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1992:Angelatripp
1954:Angelatripp
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417:talk to me!
360:talk to me!
112:This is an
36:This is an
2466:Oiyarbepsy
2453:Oiyarbepsy
2434:baselessly
2361:consensus.
1960:. Cheers,
1936:RightScale
1743:Contribute
1173:Contribute
948:Sphilbrick
884:Sphilbrick
770:Contribute
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528:no author
456:tech news
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208:Knowledge
2869:defended
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2800:ā« SƤnger
2778:ā« SƤnger
2770:MV/About
2210:starship
2167:DHeyward
2111:DHeyward
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2059:DHeyward
2004:Primefac
1975:Primefac
1962:Primefac
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1876:unsigned
1826:You can
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1751:Get help
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1679:Problems
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713:1.25wmf5
678:Problems
648:Armbrust
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310:unsigned
276:unsigned
3067:WP:OTRS
2775:edit by
2415:Moriori
2224:~ regal
2190:RyÅ«lĆ³ng
2032:RyÅ«lĆ³ng
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314:Soniamo
115:archive
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2503:WP:RfA
2340:WP:ANI
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2055:policy
1461:MEDCOM
1243:Xelaxa
1227:Xelaxa
1221:. The
937:(Talk)
872:(Talk)
474:MathML
252:Faddle
247:Fiddle
3073:Mdann
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2051:WP:DR
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1324:watch
1320:links
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