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full name is
Mladenko Colic, he is one of the foremost authorities about ustasha military, a titoist, works at Belgrade Vojnoistorijski institut, and his book is often used in academic teaching at Zagreb university) from 1973, and in book by Vladimir Dedijer from 1986 or so. There are also some mentions in the english books by foreign (out of ex-yu) authors in the 80s. In the books I mentioned, the curved knife is described, as well as its origin, Vladimir Dedijer mentiones one being captured by the partisans. He also includes the account of 50 killing methods by Nikola Nikolic in his book. The knife was an exponate at Zagreb city museum, and the photo of the knife was one of the most memorable museum exibits in the Jasenovac museum in 80s and Titoist era. So, that should be enough of reliable information to the existence and use of such a knife, widely known as srbosjek as you are probably aware (the name is used at ICTY, in press in 90s, it was translated to english as cutthroat or something like that).
31:
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river template. It is even unclear on how to include the various options on the template. There are general instructions for the
Wikiriver project. Nothing of the sort is written there. I agree with your comments but something must be done to make things clear. I was not able to find anything in the two articles you send me to indicating that the tag is intended for the talk page.
991:; to quote Nikola from there "I am afraid that if we do that, we would either a) not get an answer, b) get an answer from a secretary who looked up one of websites we already discuss, or c) get four different answers from three institutions we talk to." :-(. Even so, the municipality insignia aren't the government's business, but of local authorities.
1148:
list is returned, remove it, and start handing out BLP violation blocks. User:JamesRenner is now well aware that multiple admins consider this list to be a violation, and so really has no excuse for restoring the list. Does that sound reasonable? One way or another, the article cannot remain protected forever. -
1147:
Are you OK with removing the protection? The AFD appears to me to be headed towards a No
Consensous or Keep verdict, so we need to decdide what to do going forward. The article has the attention of multiple admins now, so my opinion is to unprotect it, and to keep a close eye on it. If the suspect
1008:
2) must not be used so as to misrepresent the CoA owner's endorsement of the product or process, etc. IOW, even if the image is public-domain, it must not be tampered with. That has little to do with the current debate, though; I still maintain that, while using CoAs in the list would likely not pose
263:
Thank you for your message. There is however a misunderstanding, at least as far as the river template is concerned. I am not new to
Knowledge. What is wrong is the way the instructions are written. Any template should have instructions on how the template should be used. This is not the case for the
128:
I understand that your concern is weather existence of such a knife is product of
Milosevic era propaganda, however, it should be clear to any honest person that the references given prove beyond doubt that the knife was described well before he was in power, that respected people, survivors and such
124:
So the only issue seems to be the references. After doing some research, I have found that there is extensive coverage of the issue in books by dr Nikola
Nikolic, holocaust survivor from Jasenovac, a Croat and medical doctor - his book is from 1948, in book by respected historian dr Mladen Colic (his
973:
anyhow? Sure, to say that an image's use is restricted in some fashion, but how? Does it make it fair use only? Only in certain situations? Not even fair use? "Restricted" could mean so many different things. Not to mention, how is the restriction independent of copyright status? If anything,
440:
Perhaps calling them high wasn't quite what I meant. I suppose each number on its own is ok, but all three in a single paragraph just seems like a huge difference. From 50,000 down to only 6,000? Commoners versus fighters, I guess it's possible, but still drastic. But then, I'm totally out of my
220:. The sources you just provided say pretty much the same: two photos from arhivrs.org, and a mention in Dedijer's book which describes how it looked like (which is already provided by the photo); the ICTY witnessing stories you referred to earlier aren't reliable sources. The knife's photo is in the
892:
Hmm... Can I be a nuisance and ask for a summary? Obviously a debate about whether to include COAs, and looks like some discussion about whether the article's a list or an article, but what's that have to do with my original question on the review page? (Ok, so I'm mostly just curious about that
372:
For the fortress map, since I don't think I have anything that can save as .svg if I edit it myself, could you add an "A" somewhere in the big town, and a "B" in the small town? (Yeah, it's a bit backwards, but the thumbnail text ends up looking bad the other way around, and it's not like it's that
116:
I notice you deleted srbosjek article. Your explanation was that references were not good enough. If you look at the original deletion page, which deleted article that was there for years, you will notice that it was proposed for deletion by someone who translated the article to german, and then it
738:
Any more opinions on anything? And what should be done about the COAs which Avala readded? The ones I randomly clicked say PD and specify
Serbian copyright law this time, but I'm confused how some can be PD (most or all for this article) while others are fair use (the ones removed from Serbia).
576:
for some time. At this point people feel it should be removed FA because there are significant issues with the prose. But I don't like doing that if people are working on an article, as you are. What are your plans with the article? Would you be upset if it was removed, to be worked on later and
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However, even he later find sources in spiegel, and a strong majority of people were against deletion. The article was deleted nevertheless. The problem seems to be in lack of supposed sources. I have added sources from ICTY, in which the knife is referred to as srbosjek, and under this name the
591:
Some time ago you helped in putting order into the list of rivers in
Romania. I had originally made separate lists for the various letters of the alphabet. You graciously put them all together. Most of the list is tranlated. However the file is over 220 kilobytes and keeps growing. It becomes
697:
This article is about an unsolved murder that is currently getting a lot of attention in Ohio. New leads are coming up every day and should be posted for others to view in hopes that it can be solved. If it remains protected, this information cannot be added to the page in a timely manner. I
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For your convenience, I here list the books: Jasenovački logor smrti - dr Nikola Nikolić, 1948 TAKOZVANA NEZAVISNA DRŽAVA HRVATSKA, dr Mladen Colic, Deltapres, Beograd 1973, Vatikan i
Jasenovac, Vladimir Dedijer, Dokumenti (Beograd: “Rad”, 1987) the last book is also translated to english
373:
big a deal anyhow.) Any chance of a slightly bluer Jezava and darker pale grey, too? For all I know, it's just my screen, but right now, the Jezava looks more like a pale grey with a pinch of blue, than a pale blue, and the pale grey's nearly impossible to tell apart from the white.
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Now that I've actually managed to get the fortress article mostly done, Firefox crashing in the middle of several fairly major edits and all, I still have a few quick questions before I stick it in mainspace and be done with it, at least until I get the urge to do more researching.
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understand you are uncomfortable with naming suspects, although it has already been reported in the media, can be found doing a simple google search, and has precident on wiki. But by keeping others from adding new information you may be impeding the solution to this cold case.
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Certainly yes; I got involved in the matter only as a passer-by, trying to enforce the BLP (and arguably started the entire wikidrama). I watched the AfD but didn't feel inclined to comment on it, as I know little about the case notability. Glad to see it out of my hands :-).
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Please note that I am the
Communications Officer for this website, and I am passing the information onto Knowledge for everybody to view. I have changed it back to what I created, with editing. Please let me know if you disagree or you want me to email the copyright people?
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I am not saying that you are not right. But if you look at these issues, please make the appropriate mentions in the page of the template. With the present instructions, anybody can understand that the template should be included in the main article. This type of errors may
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This whole thing brings up two questions in my mind, though they're only partially related to the COA debate. I'm not so sure that this is really the place for it, but maybe you know an answer I don't, to save me from asking really silly questions somewhere
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article, it already depicts it and provides the information to the reader on the horrible killing in the camp. I doubt that sources exist which would prove anything beyond that, which would make it worthy of expansion: mere existence of something does
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I'd think it would be in addition to the copyright status -- should the image be used based on the copyright status, or the restricted status? That template seems to me to be so non-specific as to be useless anyhow. Or am I just missing something? -
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It's a minor, minor point, but I'd fed up to back teeth of arguing the point that we use Kosovo instead of Kosovan or Kosovar in Knowledge as NPOV: this discussion is about 'Kosovo Elections' as opposed to 'Kosovar elections' or 'Kosovan elections'
537:
Do not revert without discussion Duja, these "argumentative statements" are pure fact: the Chetniks were genocidal and they killed more than the partisans, etc... I did not state exact numbers, they ARE in dispute, but these naked facts are not!
1207:
Zato što su obe slike bile iz Prijepolja, i prikazivale sličan pejsaž, samo u drugo doba godine. Našao sam drugu, na kojoj je prikazano ušće, i stavio umjesto prve. Pa nećemo valjda za rijeku od 220 km staviti sve slike s jednog mjesta?
922:) do have images, while I said that the article is not a list, and repeated my opinion that they pose a visual clutter. As for the legal issues you raised in the FAR, we don't know. Avala argued that they're PD (as in
466:
Ok. Between someone else mentioning that only the first word of song titles is capitalized, and you not capitalizing it when you explained -e vs -ska, that's what I was guessing anyhow, but confirmation is a nice
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Finaly, the photo and the sketch are available online from archive of Republika Srpska official site (most exibits from the old jasenovac museum were removed to Republika Srpska during the 90s wars)
369:
Did I get the citation right for the page you've been translating on the talk page (ljubomir)? (Any chance of more of that being translated, or is the rest too full of fluff to be terribly useful?)
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Ne vidim u cemu je problem sa listom na strani Beograda. Opstine kao drzavni organi prema zakonu ne mogu da zadrzavaju autorska prava na opstinske simbole kao ni na bilo koji materijal.
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Thus, please do not remove the page, undelete it and do not censor this article which was obviously deleted by mistake (article was there for several years until deletion in January).
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Thanks again. And another fun toy! I think I'll have to hold off on getting/playing with that one until I take care of some other stuff, though, silly paperwork and deadlines. -
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difficult to handle. Do you have any suggestions on what should be done. I have no idea except reverting to partial alphabetic lists. Thanks in advance for your help.
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The first, should the Serbian government be contacted to clarify what is or isn't included under that clause? Would they respond if they were, or is it not worth it?
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is a fine SVG editor. I've used it to edit the existing picture (the original is in CorelDraw) and I'll re-upload it. Maybe you'll need a Ctrl+R to purge the cache.
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the last two pictures of the srbosjek (exibit at Jasenovac museum, which I remember personally seing some 20 years ago, and also the sketch of the srbosjek knife).
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243:. Go ahead there and present your sources, and it will be debated whether to allow recreation. If you wish, I can fulfill the deletion review nomination for you.
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Heh, nope, that I haven't, unless movies count. :p I imagine that's a good thing, too, though I've heard it left some impressive-looking building skeletons.
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has little value; basically, use of the country and subdivision symbols are often restricted in the sense that 1) they must be treated with respect and not
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Ok. I've unprotected it. Now we get to see what happens next. Hopefully User:JamesRenner realizes that the list is simply not welcome. We shall see. -
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I've added the AFD tag. I hope you do not see a problem with this, but I felt that it needed to be properly AFD tagged despite the current protection. -
229:. Discussion on Serbian wiki pretty much revolves around the same: yes, it existed, and it was fairly obvious what it was used for. Its existence is also
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described the knife and its use, and although ustasha cruelty is certainly hard to believe, it is nevertheless true and as you can see, well sourced.
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Ja sam ostavio na tom članku jednu moju sliku reke Lima kako protiče kroz Prijepolje,i vi ste je yamenili drugom,ne razumem...Tražim objašnjenje.
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You can notice that on the sketch, there is a writting "Grawiso" on the knife. The knife was produced by Solingen factory, which exist even today
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text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material; such additions will be deleted. You may use external websites as a source of
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Here is the part of the last book, which mentions the knife, and is in the part of the book scanned by google, so you can easily look it up:
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I didn't read it anywhere; it came from my diseased imagination, after the same manner as everything that stands in my way in this life. --
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932:) which I'm suspiciuos about, as they're created by artists other than municipalities, and their usage is likely restricted as in
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Samim tim mislim da Beograd kao izabran clanak mora imati i ceo sadrzaj dostojan tog statusa sto znaci i listu u klasi izabranih.
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Nisam siguran da "Opstine kao drzavni organi prema zakonu ne mogu da zadrzavaju autorska prava na opstinske simbole". Možda ne
392:"crkva" isn't capitalized according to Serbian rules anyway, so if you plan to leave it untranslated, lowercase will be better.
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A sto se tice dekoracije. Mnoge slicne liste koje su do sada izabrane poseduju i grbove ili zastave u jos manjem formatu.
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Notice the word "cutthroats" there. More parts of the book might be available online in Serbo-Croatian if you google it.
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1113:(I know my Russian is bad, and I had to lean on online dictionaries, but I had to try to show some courtesy :-) ).
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be contacted for clarification; however, we have reason to believe it's pretty hopeless. You might want to check
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Please do not post copyrighted material to Knowledge without permission from the copyright holder, as you did to
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Should "crkva" be capitalized in "Blagoveštenjska crkva", or is it not considered part of the name/a proper noun?
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Duva, could you please add {{subst:afd1}} to the top of the page? The article has been nominated for deletion.
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Vrlo je verovatno da je Heraldičko društvo "Beli Orao" ili neki umetnik(ci) autor tih grbova, a ne opština.
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Sad sam pogledao 10-tak sličnih FA i nisam našao nijednu sličnu listu; to ne dokazuje ništa samo po sebi.
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138:] In English, there is a book by Howard Blum, Published in 1977 by Quadrangle/New York Times Book Co.
523:, though you just saw it with minor differences anyhow. And I was already thinking that was long... -
304:, few good reasons are raised. Otherwise, a case could be made for merging (i.e. redirecting) it into
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knife is well known in Yugoslavia, in the 90s it was mentioned quite often, as you might know.
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These numbers seem insanely high to me, is it just me, or is it another case of embellishment?
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The Turks took 50,000 men, women and children during that raid, but Smederevo was well-lead by
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was deleted on german wiki, after which he proposed the removal here due to lack of sources.
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Ili lokaciju sto se moze videti na mapi koja se srecom jos uvek nalazi u clanku o Beogradu.
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Part of book by Nikola Nikolic are available online at jasenovac-info site. For instance
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430:. Despite having only 6,000 men, compared to the Ottomans 20,000, the city withstood.
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1110:можно найти что-то о "bare foot" сравнению, но это начает из английскых жолтых газет.
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In the article itself, there are 4 or 5 questions left, any ideas about any of them?
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I do not think that this article was deleted with good reason. Can you undelete it?
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And there's still the issue of the sister cities ones, too, which are a mishmash. -
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link, so it goes. And about why US state flag descriptions are in English and
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http://influenca.neobee.net/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=7351
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http://www.jasenovac-info.com/cd/biblioteka/pavelicpapers/artukovic/aa0006.html
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http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Bunjeva%C4%8Dke_novine&action=edit
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1096:На какому-то форуме, можно :-) ? Этимология здесь несомнительня (?): слово
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http://www.suboticke.net/arhiva/broj%206/strane/od%20petka%20do%20petka.htm
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http://www.jasenovac-info.com/cd/biblioteka/vecni_pomen/atanasije_en.html
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Re 1): it seems perfectly sensible that Turks took 50,000 prisoners
1069:. Perhaps you have no interest, in which case sorry to bother you!
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498:, and that 20,000:6,000 was the ratio only in siege of Smederevo.
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of the knife is fairly undeniable, as the photos demonstrate; how
1057:(where the inclusion criteria reside) are both relevant. Cheers.
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jesam li blesav, bio sam SIGURAN da sam to negdje procitao!
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Talk:Flag of Serbia#Flag of the People and Flag of the State
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Also check out this discussion from the Serbian wikipedia:
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Here is a more extensive part of the book by Howard Blum:
1100:старшее как славянская миграция, и вероятно от илирского
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should be included in that list. You have an interest in
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List of Canadian provinces and territories by population
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http://www.nuns.org.yu/edukacija/view.jsp?articleId=3958
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Why "insanely high"? Looks perfectly plausible to me.
897:, of all things, but that's very beside the point.) -
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any copyright issues, their aesthetic value is low.
859:. Ne bih se toliko bunio da grbovi stoje u zasebnom
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nadam se da nisi izgubio good faith u mene. :) --
914:Well, apart from the stuff already pointed out at
776:List of Canadian provinces and territories by area
326:http://www.bunjevci.org.yu/site/bunjevacke-novine/
300:I did, but please spare a few sentences there: in
346:http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/rs-nm.html#bun
1193:Zašto ste izbrisali sliku sa River_Lim članka ?
983:The first: the Serbian government should
786:List of U.S. states by date of statehood
198:Knowledge:Articles for deletion/Srbosjek
875:? Nisam ja jedini kojem je to smetalo.
823:, ali i dalje nisam siguran za grbove:
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1063:Template talk:Serbian local elections
533:Do not revert without discussion Duja
161:http://www.arhivrs.org/jasenovac6.asp
470:I assume no comment/complaint = yes?
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918:Avala argued that featured lists (
871:Što nisi tu diskusiju nastavio na
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963:The second, what's the point of
802:List of counties in Rhode Island
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170:], and produces various knives.
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1067:Talk:Kosovo#Kosovo:_terminology
1037:Hello. There's a vote going on
861:List of Belgrade municipalities
452:ever heard the cannonades :-)?
212:it was used, how it was really
1055:Annex to the list of countries
227:not warrant a separate article
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797:List of counties in Maryland
771:Provinces of the Philippines
572:Hi Duja. This page has been
222:Jasenovac concentration camp
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642:from editing. . Thank you.
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1218:11:24, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
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577:brought back through FAC?
236:, and Blum. And that's it.
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630:, but not as a source of
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241:Knowledge:Deletion review
239:The venue I recommend is
191:20:53, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
1039:Talk:List of countries
550:Talk:Bleiburg massacre
302:talk:Bunjevačke novine
1041:as to whether or not
761:Counties of Lithuania
1033:Kosovo: country vote
616:English Bridge Union
604:English Bridge Union
602:My contributions to
496:across entire Serbia
428:Thomas Kantakouzenos
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673:User_talk:Matt-rex
51:Jun '04 – Mar 2006
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749:featured lists
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927:PD-SerbiaGov
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845:Što se tiče
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723:TexasAndroid
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671:(Replied at
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574:under review
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628:information
624:copyrighted
587:Help needed
548:Replied at
521:updated now
233:by Bulajić
853:ipak nije
282:See this:
143:0812906071
1129:VKokielov
1088:VKokielov
849:, članak
632:sentences
231:mentioned
206:existence
202:WP:CSD#G4
999:insignia
985:probably
968:insignia
937:insignia
920:WP:WIAFL
851:Belgrade
847:WP:WIAFL
838:insignia
702:AfD for
579:Marskell
568:Belgrade
540:DIREKTOR
399:Inkscape
395:Will do.
389:Will do.
290:PANONIAN
268:reoccur.
36:Archives
1006:defaced
895:Serbian
640:blocked
423:Thanks.
188:Hvarako
1102:bosona
1079:oooops
1071:DSuser
1047:Serbia
1043:Kosovo
618:. For
467:thing.
454:I have
259:Rivers
214:called
1199:Bx228
1098:босна
957:else.
856:lista
821:IANAL
812:Avala
200:(and
16:<
1210:Duja
1161:Duja
1115:Duja
1053:and
1011:Duja
976:Bbik
944:Duja
899:Bbik
880:Duja
807:...
741:Bbik
677:Duja
644:Duja
636:will
594:Afil
554:Duja
525:Bbik
500:Duja
475:Bbik
403:Duja
379:Bbik
310:Duja
270:Afil
245:Duja
210:much
196:See
140:ISBN
638:be
450:you
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