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traditional - both appropriately vague) is preferential to trying to integrate them as solely administrative units of historical counties - I know that was not the intention but it is implied by brackets and other formatting. The intention of my link to the
Statute Book was not to show current administrative divisions, but to show the cities and counties of Ireland as existing under law. This is the only such list. Within 10 years, it is anticipated that the Dublin counties will be recognised as full counties, with GAA teams, new addresses (and potentially, names) etc -see strategies of Development Boards of respective councils- and so it is highly restrictive that they would be confined to administrative definition in this table. Given the scope of the Local Government Act 2001, and the establishment of County Development Boards in 2002, it is fair to say that the Dublin counties had solely administrative function from 1994-2002. Comparing the Dublin situation to Tipperary would not be apt in this scenario because of the demographics involved. Dublin has been identified as needing more local level identity, by all four Dublin local authorities and by the Dept. of E,H,LG. Whether Tipperary follows suit is a matter for the authorities in that area, indeed people might use the Dublin example to create new county-level identities in Tipperary. I would recommend a revert to a single table listing:
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written higher up that "this isn't a template for former counties". Again, I can support that position. You go on to list examples of former counties. Again, I agreed with the samples supplied. The contradiction arises in your definition of "former". Whereas I had written that it encompassed those counties that were "legal counties" - and you appeared to agree with that definition - you seem to have substituted a different definition for "former" - that of "traditional". This contradiction seems to be the nub of the issue. In my view, it would be a mistake to use "traditional" as the test of "former". This is because the phrase is subjective and capable of differing interpretations depending on who's speaking and in what context. Legal, on the other hand, is capable of objective examination and verification; a county is either used to demarcate an area of local government (outside of the cities) in law or it is not not. Using this simple test, Tipperary and Dublin must be excluded along with the cities.
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Tipperary that exists in the common imagination only took final shape after the abolition of Cross (i.e. 1621). It was then split in 1836. So it really only existed in "traditional form for a little over 200 years. Is that enough for the status of "traditional"? So there is no difference between counties like
Coleraine and Lecale and counties like Dublin and Tipperary. Unless you're saying that there are degrees of traditionality. Is that what you're saying? Is the central point here that are of they are no longer used to demarcate an area of local government? If so, then all fail the test - they are all "former". For what other purpose did a county ever serve? If it no longer fulfils its defining function, can it really be said to be current?
1326:(local govt and geographic), because a) all counties have a geographic basis, b) all counties have at some point had a local govt role. In most such discussions editors have therefore referred to "traditional counties" (those which have existed since the 19th century) and "administrative counties" (those with a current local govt function). There is a huge overlap between the two sets: 75% of the traditional 32 counties are current units of local govt, and 82% of the 29 current local govt counties are traditional counties.
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the table is at the moment it is neither adminstratively or traditionally correct but also a mixture of cities and counties. Cities and counties in the
Republic of Ireland are the "unit of value" administratively but culturally this is almost exclusively the right of counties and I agree that this creates some unique difficulties as a way forward. Theirfore I recommend that we leave the template as it is for the moment as their is little chance of final decision and also a bit of experienced use may be benificial.
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569:"Irish perspective". It is the view of the Government of Ireland, and OSI mapping, that the original NI counties cannot be altered by administrative sub-divisions of the United Kingdom. That is to say, they can continue to be recognised for all intents and purposes, as they remain in having no Irish legislative status (and moreso, were not replaced by counties). This again is different to the Dublin scenario. I hope this information is of use.
1390:. It makes no attempt to refer to County Dublin, yet it establishes the geographic area that it covers. It is called a County Council and they have a section called Our County, which does suggest a view of being a county in its own right. But I'm finding it hard to find a reference that clearly lays out what the counties are today. This is confusing when it shouldn't be.
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1345:, it includes both and clearly labels the minority which are either non-traditional or currently non-administrative. I think that any attempt to omit either perspective will end up misleading the reader, but I would not rule out the possibility of re-organising the template so as to display the distinction more clearly.
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this, but just adds more noise to the article making it more lengthy than it needs to be. Surely the article should show the modern view at the top and the history below, thus avoiding confusion and the belief that ROI is currently 26 counties and confusing DLR, South Dublin and Fingal as sub sections of Dublin.
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I hope you don't think I was being smart above. I was just using a bit of humour. I'm sure you realise that, just keeping myself in check. Anyway, I think I will take some of this over to the counties of
Ireland talk page, as it is more relevant there. I must say I did start out being confused and my
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Thanks for that. I think there is confusion for the reader with the current template, I know it's trying to keep the common knowledge of counties with the current view of counties. It has taken me a while to get my head around it. I think we should be clear on what the current view of the counties of
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I don't. The provinces ar the commonest way of grouping the counties and they'r still uzed across the board; by the government, by the general population and by all in-between. We can mark which counties ar traditional/un-traditional just by adding little symbols; no need for two long lists. I should
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It's not my intention here to change anything. I do not propose to engage in OR. However, I must respectfully point out that there is a contradiction in what you have written above. On the one hand you write that the template is "for the current counties of
Ireland". I support this. And you have also
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I do agree that it is quite complicated. I would say list all the traditional counties only, using footnotes to denote those in
Northern Ireland (the two Ulsters are a bit confusing). I'd say put the lists of administrative counties either in a new table, or in the existing table under a sub-heading.
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Personally I think we could dump the whole four provinces divide, or even totally redesign the template as it is very hidious and complicated and is not what a template should be; a simple, easy to recognise summary of reality, instead we have a patchwork of conflicting ideas (administrative counties
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and most would agree that this (city) is the more used and recognised definition of the area, certainly from a cultural aspect. Thus it will not be added to the county template nor removed from the city one. However this still leaves us with the duplication, and it is this that mainly concerns me, as
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If the present day view of counties differs from the 'Traditional
Counties', then this revelation should be given clearly to the reader in a simple manner to avoid any confusion. I think the current template requires someone to read between the lines to pick up the subtleties. But realistically this
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After several years of on-off discussions, I don't think there is a clearly-defined comprehensive consensus view on what constitutes a county in
Ireland. However, I think your suggestion of "two types" of county is a good summary of the solutions which have arisen out of many discussions, and which
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Just to clarify my question, are there two different things here
Geographic and Admistration that are called county and they can be confused together? For example County Dublin is a geographic area, but in that same physical space there are admistration counties called DLR, Fingal and South Dublin?
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We shouldn't be including the city councils just becauz they wer once named "county boroughs". This template is for the counties of
Ireland; the five city councils arn't counties of Ireland. We alredy hav them on the local government template alongside the other councils, which is wher they belong.
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So, I went looking for references to tell me this within the articles we have and I found it hard to find any that are readily available. I wanted to be sure this information was correct as it is curious as to why we are trying to keep the current and the traditional together. Also to determine if
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Laurel Lodge's oft-repeated view is that there are only administrative counties, because he believes that without an administrative role a county ceases to exist. That proposition has never found a consensus, but on the other hand I have not seen anyone arguing that the new administrative counties
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Retain all 32 counties. Delete all eponymous cities. Get rid of the provincial superstructure - it's only a cultural thing and never had any official recognition anyway. Replace it with a superstructure that divides counties into "Traditional" (or "former" or "non administrative" or "non current")
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and if something appears on multiple lists, then so be it! I think the inclusion of provinces on the current template adds to the confusion, there is nothing on the template to say that they arent counties, and for someone from outside Ireland chances are they have probably never heard of three of
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Have separate templates for (1)"adminstrative counties (inc. cities)", (2)"traditional counties", and (3)"cities": The articles for Cork City etc could include both (1) and (3); Tipperary, Antrim etc just (2); Belfast, Derry-City and Kilkenny-City just (3); the rest just (1). The county boroughs
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Counties Coleraine and Lecale are no longer used for administration even though at one time they were traditional. Some were traditional for longer than others. Your link to Cross Tipperary was fascinating. I was not aware of that colourful history. It's clear from that article that the county of
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With same formatting in all 3 to imply, correctly, that they each have the same status. Tipperary and Dublin need not be altered or formatted differently in the table at this stage. Also, to note that the issue of the administrative counties in NI does not apply if the list is meant to be from an
1412:
The Counties of Ireland article did help me get this a bit, but the map at the top contradicts the text that says the official view is 29 counties in the Republic of Ireland. This, I presume, was attempted to be cleared up with the section called 'Interactive map and usage' that tries to clarify
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in July 2011? It was a discussion on the county intros, and a long discussion on Traditional v. Administrative followed. The result was that for example, County Dublin's intro now reads "County Dublin (Irish: Contae Ćtha Cliath) is a county in Ireland." No mention of former or traditional. Same
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The choice of Northern Ireland seems to have been a bit controversial though: one contributor decided to go with the messier arrangement (26 footnote markers for RI) to avoid the appearance of "supremacism". This is, I feel, an excessive display of political correctness. 26 footnote markers are
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With a view to minimising the total amount of footnote markers, I choose to mark the counties in Northern Ireland. This isn't political: it simply makes sense to have six footnotes instead of 26. This arrangement works particularly well as the six footnotes only appear in the Ulster category.
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I broadly agree with what you have proposed here - it might be ideal to drop the IrishCities template altogetheir and use a single template with all cities and counties? In addition the provinces might best be removed as a method of sorting counties, perhaps in their own section to reduce some
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I agree that a single table which includes both cities and counties would be appropriate, in separate sections. Also, until further developments in the identity of the new counties takes place and it becomes more obvious to the public, I think having a separate section for "new counties" (vs.
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in the edit comment suggests it is desired to emphasise the current administrative counties of the Republic. If this is so, then all the other items (Dublin, Tipperary, Antrim, etc) should be removed for true consistency. I won't vote for that, but if that's the consensus then at least do it
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My basic desire is that the current administrative counties are all given equal recognition. Whatever way historic counties and cities can be accommodated around that is fine. If any counties are to be segregated I would much rather they were the old ones than the new ones. Of course, the
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The current template attempts to combine representation of traditional/historic and current/administrative counties, while enabling both to be distinguished, and showing which of the latter correspond to which of the former. I don't believe putting the administrative counties of Leinster in
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Laurel Lodged, your obsession with re-categorising and re-labelling the counties has gone on too long. After countless discussions over more than a year, it is clear that your views on the significance of the Eurostat and/or administrative status of counties do not have consensus. Please
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If we remove Dublin and Tipperary then we'd also hav to remove Antrim, Armagh, Down, Fermanagh, Londonderry, Tyrone, Galway, Limerick, Cork and Waterford. None of thoze ar uzed for administration with their traditional borders. However, they still exist as traditional counties.
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Up to my revision (16:37, 8 December 2006) there were footnotes for each county denoting whether or not it was in the Republic of Ireland (RI) or Northern Ireland (NI). This meant that every county had a footnote after it which impeded reading, and looked a bit odd, frankly.
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include both States/Provinces and Territories.) I realise trying to accommodate both traditional counties and administrative divisions in the same template is going to involve compromises; I just don't believe removing the Country Boroughs is the best available compromise.
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I agree too. The counties are commonly and traditionally grouped by province. Whilst the cites have the legal status of counties, they are not regarded as such either in common usage or for geographic purposes, and their inclusion would mislead the reader. The
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alphabetical order is an improvement, as it loses some of the information available from the previous format. (South Dublin is the only one not currently in alphabetical order anyway; I believe this represents less of an imperfection.) The reference to
1318:(ec)DubhEire, simple answer is "it's to show both types". But that's an over-simplification, and a long answer is better. (Also, I wrote this in answer to your initial post, and before your clarification. So it reflects the questions you asked first).
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Even with all that said, there is a hole in the geographic cover of ROI. Dublin City doesn't fall under a county and would then be countyless. Perhaps that is correct as we are just talking about counties, and there is an area that is not covered by a
854:, I expect that the first of these will shortly be deleted, which would leave only 1 rather cumbersome template that tries to do too much. Strictly speaking, the traditional counties were always accompanied by the "County of the City of Foo". See
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Nobody agreed with your proposed compromise. The current version is the consensus version and is used on each Province article. Also, do you understand the concept of user space, or do you just like creating lots of duplicate templates?
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So, still a bit confused, I think surely Fingal will fix this for me now. Perhaps someone has demonstrated this clearly. In fact they have a 'Where is Fingal' section. So I'm thinking, yes, finally, I am about to know for sure, see map
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My problem is that since then another contributor, to avoid the argument, has removed all footnotes, damaging the table, and reducing the amount of information it conveys. I have re-instated my version, what do people think? -- Bryan
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I agree most with your second proposal but believe that organising by three tiers: (1) the traditional thirty-two counties, purely alphabetic with no provinces (2) the new administrative counties in tipperary and dublin (3) cities of
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1397:, adds what now? Yep, it defines itself geographically and shows it's neighbours as Fingal, South Dublin and DLR. But this could just be simply as it is in the context of Administration and it doesn't say what county it is in.
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serves the reader well by setting the 32 traditional counties in the context of the 4 provinces, and the inclusion of the county subdivisions for Tipperary and Dublin has been achieved clearly without making the template
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Is it your argument that Counties "of the City of Foo" should be excluded because they are not now counties? That is, they were once legal counties but are no longer so. Is that an accurate summary of your position?
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I disagree. Cities have the same administrative status as counties. The distinction is as slight as when the Tipperarys were "Ridings" . Dublin City has an area of the same order as DLR and South Dublin.
500:. Tidiness is fine as long as we're not oversimplifying reality. I would hate to see the Republic of Ireland not having some infobox somewhere which contained all its current administrative divisions. (
630:
A single template listing in separate alphabetical sections (1) all current counties (exc. cities) (2) obsolete traditional counties (3) cities. Would need notes for Northern Ireland and Kilkenny-City.
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Eh? I notice that denunciations of personal attacks by others on you, are invariably accompanied by personal attacks of your own making. The device would be more amusing if only it wasn't so overused.
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Yes, my argument is that only counties should be on a "counties of Ireland" template. If we include cities just forwhy they wer once named "county boroughs" then we should also be including the
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Dubh, the question of what the current counties are depends on how you define a county. There are several different approaches, and choosing any one of them causes anomalies and omissions. --
1405:. If you look at 'Fingal in relation to Ireland', the map shows a view of counties I haven't seen before. Now is this the present day picture of counties in Ireland, or have they got it wrong?
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template is probably not used by many readers as most don't really know where to find these or what their purpose is. So the importance is in the Lists, Categories and Article Leads.
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I feel this made the template easier to read, while conveying the same amount of information: indeed, by stripping out redundant footnotes, it made the information more accessible.
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This template is for the current counties of Ireland. That means the traditional 32 counties alongside North Tipperary, South Tipperary, DĆŗn Laoghaire, Fingal and South Dublin.
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Help! I am doing a small poster on Ireland. i have pictures from a Google image search on Ireland. I desperately need websites that are trustworthy by Tuesday December 18!!!!!
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objective is to ensure that the reader is clear from the start what the current counties are. I think bringing in the older counties and trying to mix them together confuses.
1289:
What is the objective of this template. Is it to show the current counties? Looking for a simple answer here. Are there two types of counties Geographic and Local Government.
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I agree, the template is primarily geographic in nature, its about the counties not the councils, no need to just hung up on the tired traditional/non-traditional argument.
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This recognises the traditional sense of the counties whilst also integrating new administrative counties and including cities without any undue duplication or separation.
693:(of the Republic), cities (with city councils, in the Republic), partition of Ireland, four provinces divide (purely cultural/historic divide), traditional counties.)
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Counties Dublin and Tipperary arn't former counties like Coleraine and Lecale. They'r no longer uzed for administration but they still exist as traditional counties.
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OK. On that basis, I can agree to the deletion of the cities. Naturally, this means that the former counties of Dublin and Tipperary must also be deleted. Agreed?
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Given that a county can only be in one or the other, it made sense only to have footnotes for one case, with the absence of a footnote indicating the other case.
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the template continues to state "(parentheses) denotes non-traditional counties" even though 3 of the four new Dublin counties are no longer in parentheses.
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I'm thinking, Dublin City must state where it resides geographically, considering it is not a county, and this will clear it up for me, so this map
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I would have to go along with Djegan on this one, this template is a mess. An alternative might be a new template, something along the lines of
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1048:@ Snappy: I'm not sure what your argument is, but if you think Counties Dublin and Tipperary belong on this template then we'r in agreement.
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Your quite right Kilkenny is not a county borough but the law makes it clear that this does not predice its right to be discribed as a city
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harder to read than 6 and look worse. It's a simple matter of mathematics. Politics has absolutely nothing to do with it, and shouldn't.
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So, now I am wondering where do I live? Is my address no longer County Dublin but instead County DLR? Let's not go Postal just yet.
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In "the common imagination" the 32 counties ar the traditional counties. We can't change that, so it's pointless to argue about it.
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page itself could do with some rework to make the situation clearer. There are a number of possible reworkings of the template:
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the tildes were intended to indicate repetition of the name of the preceding county. "Fingal~" and "South Dublin~" make no sense.
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I agree, it should be for the counties of Ireland only, which was the original intent of the template. There is a separate
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Please be advised that a name change proposal to this template is under discussion at the Project.
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Please note that LL's prposed replacement template ({tl|Counties of Ireland by category}} has been
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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have now stabilised in practice. But I do think it would be better to say that a county has two
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and counties could form 2 alphabetical listings in (1), with province-based listings used in (2).
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There is no reason why the template can't have traditional and administrative counties in it.
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I think both so-called traditional and so-called administrative should be on this template.
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http://www.dublincity.ie/YourCouncil/LocalAreaServices/Pages/LocalCouncilOfficesa.aspx
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True to form, more personal attacks, instead of concentrating on this issue at hand.
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I can see sense in Laurel Lodged's compromise and would back it as a compromise.
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Requested articles/Social sciences/Geography, cities, regions and named places
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http://www.fingalcoco.ie/YourLocalCouncil/AboutFingal/Maps/WhereisFingal/
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also point-out that all the administrativ counties ar alredy shown on
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I think we should remove the city councils. This template is for the
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status to counties, but a city is not a county this is why we have
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Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Ireland/Archive_14#New_county_intros.
832:. We alredy hav two templates for the city and county councils (
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because they left the template in an inconsistent state.
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I went to DLRCOCO and found this page interesting to read
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there is a distinction of Geography over Administration.
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I'm not sure what LocGov is saying. The various types
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Geography articles with topics of unclear notability
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1379:Ireland are to the reader and try not to confuse.
1102:and "Current" (or "administrative"). Any takers?
478:. Also removing them keeps things neat and tidy.
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720:Historic and administrative divisions of Ireland
235:Articles missing geocoordinate data by country
449:I think in any case cities should be removed
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856:Local government in the Republic of Ireland
149:Here are some tasks awaiting attention:
291:Knowledge requested photographs of places
32:does not require a rating on Knowledge's
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221:Geographic related deletion discussions
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850:Thanks to the vigilance of a certain
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665:Denoting Counties in Northern Ireland
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192:Unknown-importance geography articles
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496:includes Kilkenny, which is not a
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1216:. We don't need more repetition.
805:Wikiproject Ireland notification.
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601:admin city Cork, Galway etc
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1538:
924:Template:Cities in Ireland
819:18:21, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
739:20+ District councils (NI)
607:trad only Dublin Tipperary
416:Historic vs Administrative
1354:lengthy discussion at TfD
1343:only traditional counties
911:County of Cross Tipperary
445:03:51, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
343:
126:
64:
46:
1150:Always the bither word.
656:12:31, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
637:10:54, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
583:11:13, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)
536:17:58, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
513:05:40, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
482:18:03, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
463:09:34, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
453:17:54, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
263:Knowledge requested maps
228:Geographical coordinates
733:32 Traditional counties
610:trad NI Antrim Down etc
753:comment was added by
182:WikiProject Geography
95:WikiProject Geography
633:other suggestions?
554:Traditional Counties
494:Template:IrishCities
476:Template:IrishCities
1257:gets sanctioned as
1255:tendentious editing
1099:Compromise proposal
903:County of Coleraine
621:Counties of Ireland
374:WikiProject Ireland
1214:the other template
502:Template:Australia
118:geography articles
34:content assessment
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40:WikiProjects
29:
1245:over-large.
785:āPreceding
730:4 Provinces
422:User:LocGov
1486:Categories
1456:HairedGirl
1361:HairedGirl
1266:HairedGirl
1259:disruptive
779:SOS!!!!!!!
755:Fasach Nua
270:Notability
219:Listed at
1324:functions
635:Joestynes
579:clutter?
511:Joestynes
461:Joestynes
443:Joestynes
109:Geography
100:geography
59:Geography
1464:contribs
1439:DubhEire
1424:DubhEire
1369:contribs
1352:after a
1306:DubhEire
1291:DubhEire
1274:contribs
1218:~AsarlaĆ
1050:~AsarlaĆ
1022:~AsarlaĆ
997:~AsarlaĆ
956:~AsarlaĆ
915:~AsarlaĆ
879:~AsarlaĆ
842:~AsarlaĆ
830:counties
787:unsigned
763:contribs
751:unsigned
727:2 states
707:-- Bryan
649:ireland.
30:template
1417:county.
1350:deleted
1203:Mabuska
852:hounder
472:similar
388:Ireland
379:Ireland
338:Ireland
242:Infobox
200:Cleanup
1460:(talk)
1365:(talk)
1270:(talk)
1227:Snappy
1166:Snappy
1138:Snappy
1059:Snappy
1036:Snappy
965:Snappy
928:Snappy
909:, the
905:, the
824:Cities
695:Djegan
654:Djegan
581:Djegan
573:LocGov
564:Cities
534:Djegan
480:Djegan
451:Djegan
173:Assess
36:scale.
1454:Brown
1359:Brown
1333:This
1264:Brown
862:etc.
590:don't
298:Stubs
284:Photo
28:This
1443:talk
1428:talk
1356:. --
1310:talk
1295:talk
1261:. --
1231:talk
1184:talk
1170:talk
1156:talk
1142:talk
1127:talk
1117:See
1108:talk
1063:talk
1040:talk
1011:talk
984:talk
969:talk
946:talk
932:talk
893:talk
868:talk
838:here
836:and
834:here
815:talk
795:talk
759:talk
504:and
303:See
289:See
275:See
261:See
247:See
233:See
205:See
190:and
164:and
160:See
1462:ā¢ (
1367:ā¢ (
1341:or
1272:ā¢ (
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256:Map
1488::
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761:ā¢
184:}}
180:{{
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194:.
176::
158::
42::
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