Talk:Macedonians (ethnic group)/Archive 3

3543:

right to this history. But, Greece can not have that right eighter. It is a history that this region shares and both, we (Macedonians) and Greeks have a part of our origin from those people. In the same time ALL the Macedonian history after the 6th century is given in Knowledge as Bulgarian history. I am talking about the Knowledge claims that in the 9th century the Macedonian Slavs got Bulgarized or assimilated by Greece, that in the 10th century Macedonia become a center of Bulgaria (which is not truth, because there are 1000s of hard proves and writtings found in Ohrid denying the Bulgarian claims), the tzar Samoil kingdom (which was everything than Bulgarian, because he had several fights with them and won in all and you can find again 1000s of proves in his fortress in Ohrod), then the Macedonian Ohrid Archbishopry which was clearly Macedonian and everything else than Bulgarian, with dressings and crowns with a completely different stile than the Bulgarian ones. Later Knowledge claims that after 1018th Byzantine Empire makes Macedonia a Bulgarian province, but it doesn't say the reason for it (the Bulgarians were fighting at his side, so this was his reward towards them, something that will happen in the WW2, when the biggest part of Macedonia will be given to Bulgaria by the Germans. 3 of 4 sons of Samoil were actually latter killed by pro-Bulgarians Another reason is the wish of Vasili II to make a revenge towars Samoil and his people, with denying them, something that Knowledge does NOW). Then, Knowledge claims that the Ottoman Empire was seeing us as Bulgarians, which is completely not truth. You have incredible written archives in Turkish museums for this, so you can make a search by your own. All the Macedonian uprisings were characterised as Macedonians. Even the after-capture execution of the leaders was taking place in Skopje, the biggest town in the teritory of Macedonia and not in Sofija, which was the Bulgarian biggest town. Knowledge says that the following Macedonian history is Bulgarian: IMRO, Ilinden Uprising in Krusevo (where the only newspapers that write about it as Bulgarian uprising are the ones who didn't have their Journalists in the region and were using the Bulgarian sources, which in that time was already liberated, who wanted to show the uprising as their own. Why you don't read some Russian sources which have their journalists in Krusevo and Bitola at the time? Some of the grand sons and grand daughters of the revolutioners are still alive, so you might ask them what their grand-fathers were fighting for. The Krusevo Manifesto says that their goal is FREE and INDEPENDENT Macedonia. Why would their form their own Republic, if they wanted to be part of Bulgaria? All Knowledge claims simply have no sence), Goce Delchev and the other revolutioners (NOTE: Goce Delchevs nephews which are still alive all spent half of their life proving Goce Delchev's belongding to the Macedonian nation. NOTE 2: Why would he fight for Macedonia's independence if he was Bulgarian? If he was Bulgarian, wouldn't he fight for unification of Macedonia and Bulgaria? Why was he betrayed by a Bulgarian, which resultet in his death in Banica 1903rd? You are corupting our biggest revolutioner, something that we keep as a saint). Knowledge says that the "St Cyril and Methodius" high school in Solun, where Delchev studied was Bulgarian. How come, when no Bulgarians were living in Solun?... A prove for the Bulgarian, Serb and Greek ambitions to assimilate the Macedonians and take their teritory is the deals and fights they had in the both Balcan wars. They were all exterminating the Macedonians, burning their houses and grabbing their lands, but Knowledge completely ignores all that. I (and many more) have a living family members who were witnesses of that time. Then, the WW2, when 2/3 of Macedonia was given to Bulgaria by the Germans. Why the hell 100000 Macedonians were fighting against the Bugarians? 25000 died in that war, again many members of my family. And Knowledge says that we have Bulgarian origin. Why they didn't fight at the Bulgarian side if that was the case? Knowledge later claims that our country (Republic of Macedonia) was given to us by Tito. What a lie!!! As I said 100000 Macedonians were fighting for freedom. If Tito made us be under the Serbs again, that wouldn't be freedom and 100000 heavily armed Macedonians would continue fighting for it. Even my 94 year old grand-father, who took a part in the WW2 fighting for the partizans, and who was looking at Tito as a saint agrees with this, that he wouldn't rest till he saw Macedonia free. Knowledge even denies the exodus of 250 000 Macedonians from Greece, saying they were running away by their own. Who the hell will leave his house and land if he was not forced to? My other grand father's house was burned and he was shoot at in order to make him leave his hometown.

3514:

region of Macedonia. This is a pure fact, something that you can even find on the CIA web page. Can you give any fact to deny my fact? If you can not, why you erased it from Knowledge? Fact 2. Republic of Macedonia has diplomatic relations with about 150 countries in the world. Knowledge says that "at least 20" countries recognize Macedonia under the name Macedonia. Guess what? That number is more than 100. And this is an officially confirmed by our ministery for foreighn affairs. Fact 3. Knowledge says that my country Contraversialy calls itself Republic of Macedonia. This is a pure example of taking a side in the problem. Why you don't say that Greece contraversialy deny us the use of the name Macedonia? If you intended to be neutral, just write that we have the naming problem with Greece, but do not call my name "contraversial"!!! Fact 4. While explaining about the antient Macedonia, its kings etc. you highly support the claim for their Greek origin. I can give you 1000s of facts that that is not truth and I beleive that some Greek guy can give you 1000s facts that those claims are truth. That was 2400 years ago and there is no chanse for us to know the real situation. We can only guess. But, when you give the Greek suported version, why you ignore the version suported by the newaged Macedonians? In this moment I can give you 10 names of internationally respected scientist supporting our theory. If you are neutral, why you ignore it? Fact 5. Knowledge says that the Turkish Empire were calling us Bulgarians. Strange, because the Turks were recognizing the uniqueness of our nation since the moment they occupied the teritory of Macedonia. Actually, the Turkish history archives are the biggest prove of our existance, history and culture. Did anyone of you ever read anything from those archives? Even on the birth certificate of Khemal Ataturk says that he is born in Bitola, Macedonia. And his autobiography is full of memories of his childhood spend with the Macedonians. Fact 6. Knowledge ignores the egsodus of the Macedonian people from Greece and says they were running because they were supporters of the comunists. 1/3 of the Macedonians have origin from this part of Macedonia. They were runned away from there by force and you can find many historical proves for that. Again, big part of my family has origin from there. As a matter of fact, my grand-grand father was married to a Greek woman, my grand-grand mother. But, no matter of that, his house was burned and he was forced to run away for his life and the life of his family. How dare you deny this? Do you know that even today my grand father is not allowed to visit Greece, because he was a kid when his family runned away from there? Fact 7. There are about 500 000 Macedonians that live outside Macedonia, mostly in Canada, Australia, USA, Sweden etc. At least 1/3 moved there before 1930s. If we were a product of Tito, how can you explain that even they feel of Macedonian nationality? I have a family in USA which moved there in 1927th. Their ancestors (my cousins) do not even know how to talk Macedonian well. But, they still feel Macedonian. One of them is even one of the financiers of the party of the Macedonians in Bulgaria, trying to help their strugle to keep their national identity. I repeat, first time he visited Macedonia was in 1995th, far after Tito. And his family moved in USA in 1927th, far before Tito. Fact 8. Knowledge claims that the book of Macedonian songs by Dimitar Miladinov is actually Bulgarian. Have you maybe seen a original copy of the book, printed in Croatia? IT says clearly "Macedonian". Not to mention that the same author wrote one of the most important books in the Macedonian history "For the Macedonian issues", again printed in Croatia, where it clearly talks about the Macedonian nation and non-Bulgarian origin.

6873:

Macedonian Slavs the right to be a nation of its own, it only points out that they can't change history up until they point where they decided to be separate. It's just doesn't work. It'll never work. Bulgarians don't really recognise Macedonian Slavs as a separate nation, and neither does VMORO - that's a fact. The Bulgarian govertnment has recognised and promoted the idea of a Separate "Macedonian" nation for one simple reason: That to them it's by default a "Macedonian Bulgarian" nation which at any time might be incorporated to the Bulgarian state. Macedonian Slav land claims on Northern Greece are for the Bulgarians a vision of compensating their losses in the Balkan Wars. In the Bulgarian side it's all a game of diplomacy which doesn't give a crap about the Macedonian Slavic ethnic feelings, it's all about their nationalist dream of expanding their teritorry all the way to the Aegean Sea. Actually I feel quite stupid to be telling you so, I thought this was common knowledge to people of basic understanding of the political situation. If you really care to know what I believe about the Macedonian Slavic nation here goes. There has indeed been a Slavic ethnic group in the region of Macedonia that recognise itself different from the Serbs and Bulgars. This ethnic group has existed before the official promotion of a Macedonian nation by Tito but in very smaller numbers, that's a fact that VMORO and no Bulgarians would ever accept (despite what they openly claim). It has not pre-existed however before the early 20th century. Why? Because they're simply not a historical record to verify so. This is also proved by the pathetic attempts of Slav Macedonian nationalists to claim Bulgarian intellectuals and artists as "Macedonian" and other similar efforts to invent or even nick history. That's something which I can't understand. Macedonian Slavs can't realise that "you can fool some people some times, but you can't fool all the people all the time". They would have to burn all existing historical records and magically replace them with new ones in order to be taken seriously in the world. Sure they can fool a random unsuspected reader who browses wikipedia into thinking that the Republic of Macedonia is just the democratic version of Philip's Kingdom. Sure they can basically force (by leaving no choice) a bunch of people to refer to them as "Macedonians", and their language as "Macedonia". What I really, really, REALLY, don't understand how could any ethnic group of a basic national pride could take satisfaction in that. I don't understand how can you take satisfaction by making people to confuse you with something you're not: A glorious ancient civilization which in reality is alien to you, and ethnically related to the people you officially hate (the Greeks). Life can have a sick sense of irony I suppose. How could at an individual level

6883:

hailed from the Great Alexander. After Tito's promotion of the existence a Macedonian nation, many other Slavic groups of the reason bought the story. Newer generations lived on the idea of being "Macedonian", without really knowing what this word stands for. The educated masses took advantage of ancient history and did what every reasonable nation-builder would: Try to link the "Macedonian part" of "Macedonian Orthodox" with the Macedonian of the Old. Then of course they had to create some history inbetween. As nobody could hide the fact that they were a Slavic-speaking people, they decided to steal the Slavic history of the region, as what's closest to the of course? Bulgaria. Then ludicrous claims continue, and they even try to label Tsar Samuil's Empire as "Macedonian" (completely ignoring the fact that the Greek emperor who conquered it was nicknamed 'Bulgar-Slayer'). This is also extremely comical, as the Macedonian Slav nation was at the time still part of the Bulgarian. In a way it's as if Bulgarians are trying to steal Bulgarian history and call it something else. So there you have it, you have created a nation. The question that follows is for how long can such a ridiculous fairy-tale can last. When FYROM one day advances and breaks off completey from its communist past (and the nationalist propaganda that follows), people will look back and laugh. I just hope for your own sake that this happens before the country is incorporated into Greater Albanian or Greater Bulgaria. I don't really see the point in you pointing out how many letters "Macedonian Slavs" have sent to the EU. My paragraph aims to declare that the term "Slav" is not a racial slur as you constantly claim, and therefore doesn't intend to offend. If it does offend some people (and it probably does) that's a different story. Greeks are also offended by the use of RoM over FYROM, but the matter was settled by a label claiming "Usage of RoM doesn't mean to offend Greeks blah blah blah". So this sentense aims to declare the same thing, hence I'm moving it back. PS, I find it extremely ironic that you call me a racist. I'm not the one who's inventing and promoting pseudo-scientific researches which aim to degrade a nation by linking it to a non-white background.

3525:

own country. Fact 1. Mayas were living in Mexico (same as Antique Macedonians). Fact 2. Spanish invaded them and great number of Spanish people moved to Mexico (The Slavs moved on the theritory of Macedonia and there was no reported fights or movements of people away from the teritory where the Slavs settled). Fact 3. Nowdays, everyone of the Mexican is aware that they are partly Spanish, but they still have Mayan origin (Knowledge says that the people living in Republic of Macedonia are Slavs. When there was no reported resetling of the Antique Macedonians, how is possible they not to mix with the Slavs? It is a fact that the nowdays Macedonians are not same as the Antique Macedonians, but they certanly have a significant part of their genes. Same as I beleive that Greece has a part of their Genes, but they are definitly not their direct ancestors). Fact 4. Mexican speak Spanish. Reason: The Spanish culture was superior in that time. (The Antique Macedonians accepted the Helenic culture, including a variation of the Greek language. Reason: the Helenic culture was superior in that time. Everyone who knows at least little history will know that Hellenic and Greek are not synonims. Greek is nation, Hellenic is religion/culture. USA and England both speak English, both are mostly cristians, but they are SEPARATE nations. Aren't they? Same happens to Germany and Austria, or Serbia and Croatia, or Canada and France, or Brazil and Portugal, or the rest of Latin America and Spain)

3529:

the end of the 19th and begginbing of the 20th century, the Bulgarians were the ones who killed the most of our revolutionaries, including 4 members of my close family which were members of the Macedonian revolutionary organization (VMRO). Whis is not something that I was told by Tito. My grandfather (the same grandfather from above) was in fact a member of the same organization. He personaly knew many of the revolutioners that Bulgarians claim are theirs, including 2 of the leaders: Goce Delcev and Gorce Petrov. They were Macedonians and they all gave their lives for free and independent Macedonia and they had nothing to do with Bulgaria. There was a part of them who were Bulgarians inserted in the organizations, who were actually the killers of the real Macedonian revolutioners, because it was in Bulgarian interest to weaken the organization, so they could take the lead in the organization and later put Macedonia in the hands of the Bulgarians. Thanks god, they did not succeed. Knowledge claims that VMRO was pro-Bulgarian and the revolutioners were Bulgarian fighters. You suposed to see the face of my 94 year old grandfather when I told him your claims. Neurtal Knowledge? I do not think so.

12530:

and generalisations against Greek people. One thing you need to realise sooner or later that there's no such thing as an "Arvanite ethnic minority group". The first Arvanites who set foot in Greece can probably be called Albanians, but after their integration to the Greek culture it's just silly to speak of an Albanian minority group or language. For what it matters, they don't even physically resemble to modern Albanians. It would be like calling the Bretons an Irish or a British minority group. If for no other good reason, just because the people who recognise their Arvanite origin today, have absolutely no different ethnic feelings from any other Greek, and no particular connection to Albania whatsoever. I have 2 friends that belong to this category. One of them speaks Arvanite at a decent level and can only pick up words from proper Albanian. The other comes from a family that speaks it fluently. None of them feel any connection to Albania nor any different ethnic feeling than any other Greek. Those are the facts, whether you choose to believe them or not is irrelevant, and out of my interest.

12277:"My country" doesn't give a crap about your piece of land. In fact it doesn't even consider it part of Macedonia, simply because it isn't. The ancient Macedonian region is geographically contained within Greek Macedonia. The wider Balkan region of Macedonia was expanded to include Vardar and Pirin during Ottoman and Contemporary times until Tito's cherry on the cake. In fact most people will tell you that there hasn't been a Macedonian Slav nation prior to Tito's reforms in the mid 40's. I won't even say that, I'll also give you the early 20th century. What's important is that the Slavs who declared "Makedonski Orhodox" being different from Bulgar, Serb and Rum during WWI, were poor, simple and uneducated people who never had the intention of stealing Greek or Bulgarian history. Tito's the one responsible for promoting Macedonian Slav national myths, hence why he's the real creator of the Macedonian Slav nation. If you insist that there's been a Macedonian Slav nation prior to the 20th century then I provoke you to either back up your claims or never mention it in an article again. Metaxas was a 12498:

their very conservative political behavior: they had traditionally been royalists and, in large numbers, adhered to the Old Calendarist Orthodox Christian Church, which -when the split in the Greek Church over the introduction of the new calendar took place in the 1920’s- was originally supported by the royalist forces. Moreover, and more important for the survival of their language, they have distanced themselves from the Albanians to the extent that most consider today offending to be called Albanians: they have preferred the term Arvanite (Arberor in their own language) for the people and Arvanitika (Arberichte) for the language, as opposed to Albanian (Shqiptar for the people and Shqip for the language) that Albanians use for themselves and their language -with the exception of the Arvanites of Northwestern Greece, as mentioned above. This attitude may also explain the efforts of some intellectuals of the Arvanite community to trace Arvanites’ and Arvanitika’s roots back to the prehistoric inhabitants of Greece, the Pelasgians and their language, so as to claim indigenous status

7982:. You will discover something you have obviously never heard of before. Official policy requires that you refrain with coming up with bizarre theories on your own especially when reliable sources say the opposite. Our reliable sources being of course the encyclopaedias Britannica, Hutchinson, Webster's, Phillip's etc. You can't surely believe that (as REX bluntly puts it and I have noticed that you never answer that accusation) they are wrong in referring to this ethnic group as Macedonians. You may sneer at me but we know that you are like the Irish police officers. None of them carry guns, in the same way you have no sources. You may shout, scream or even burn yourself alive in protest, but that will not change the fact that the term Macedonian Slavs cannot be used (it can also refer to Bulgarians). And given that fellow encyclopaedias use the name Macedonians, we can assume that Knowledge will stick out like a sore thumb for saying something different. I really expected more mature behaviour from you, especially considering the claims that you have on your UserPage. 6878:

that ring a bell? Yet the answer to this is not so complicated, and of course it has to do with the socio-political situation of an newly formed "Republic" which has its roots in a recent communist regime. I don't try to imply any offence by this. For instance why do you think that China wins more and more medals in the Olympics? Why didn't they win any in the past? Why did the USSR used to win all the medals in the Olympics? Why do you think that ex-Soviet countries still win many medals in the Olympics in comparison to their population and current economy? Do you think that it's all at random? I hope you get the hint. As I was saying the answer is simple and it has to do with FYROM's recent communist past. It's not that people accept to live in a national myth and take satisfaction by people who buy it, it's just that the people have bought their national myth themselves. As I mentioned earlier, a small Slavic ethnic group which recognised itself different from Serbs and Bulgars

834:

It can not be denied that the names of these towns were originally Greek. (i.e Thessaloniki means vicotry of Thessalonians). There is not a large Slavic minority in Greece. This can be proven by the excistence of a Slavic Macedonian Party (they have there own party how is this a violation of Human rights by Greeks) which only pulls in 3,000 votes an election. FYROM often refers to Slavic speaking Greeks as Slavic Macedonians but alot of these people regard themselves as Greek and not as Slavic Macedonians. Either way ur point does not justify the exclusive use of the term Macedonian. The Macedonian can also be used to describe Greeks living in Macedonia. Also todays Slavic Macedonians are in no way connected to the Macedonians of Ancient Greece with its heroes Philip and Alexander. The truth is todays Macedonian Slavs are Slavs and live in the region Macedonia so it is only fair that they be referred to as Macedonian Slavs to avoid confusion and for us stay neutral.

4902:??? Do you need a psychiatrist? Multiple IDs, tra-la-la... You suffer from paranoia - but that's your own problem. Keep your comments here to the point and don't bother the other readers with the your disorders. The sources you quoted simply say that the Macedonians are Slavs and have nothing to do with the Ancient Macedonians - there are two lines in Macedonian historiography right now, the one claims that the Macedonian Slavs are descendents of Slavs who intermingled with the Ancient Macedonians, the other one claims they are Slavs and have nothing to do with the Ancient Macedonians. Not a word that they like calling themselves "Macedonian Slavs", no, they don't. The examples quoted by you are irrelevant to your claim, they don't support it and since they don't support it, the claim in Italics which u are so brazen to put every time you come in here, gets subsequently erased. Period. Cheers and I hope I am a persistent element of your nightmares. 2383:... No. The reasons for the ethnic insurgency of Albanians are different: from radical (creation of a Greater Albanian state, making RoM a federation) to relatively moderate (equal representation in governmental institutions, higher education in their mother tongue, making Albanian a co-official language). The fact that they are not named "Macedonians" was not a reason. In fact, after ceasefire was accomplished there were two main proposal for the making of the new constitution: 1. a republic composed of ethnic communities (Macedonians, Albanians, Turks, Serbs, Roma, Bosniaks, Vlachs, etc) and 2. a republic based on the citizenship principle (not putting the ethnic frame in the constitution, but only stating that it is a republic of Macedonian citizens, regardless of their ethnic group). The second proposal was rejected by Albanians because they saw it as a way of perpetuating the "ethnic domination of 6380:, I am really interested to know what your personal views are on the Slavomacedonians as a people. My own view is that they were nothing but Bulgarian, until Bulgaria's defeat in the Second Balkan War when the territory was ceded to Serbia and a process of "de-Bulgarization" started, for reasons which are more than obvious. I should imagine that after decades of propaganda, and lacking a sturdy linguistic and cultural heritage to fall back on, they bought it, lock, stock and barrel. Therefore I was stunned to read that more than 10% of them have taken up Bulgaria's offer and have acquired Bulgarian citizenship! I believe this phenomenon is unprecedented in history: such a huge percentage of a country's population being eager to "betray", as it were, their apparent identity so easily. What are your thoughts on the above? 4550:

geographically and culturally the only inheritors of that name. But you don't have an answer to that do you? You just say "that won't never happen" and it probably won't. The point is that those people X of Northern Greece who call themselves Macedonian, are as much as people as the Macedonian Slavs, and I don't see a reason for the Universal Declaration of Human Rights not applying to them. We're not even suggesting that plain "Macedonians" is restricted to Northern Greeks, which for the obvious reasons is the only realistic scenario. On the contrary, we're suggesting that the name "Macedonian" should not be monopolised by anybody, but I suppose a nation with no real history or culture is too insecure to settle with such a compromise. What goes around comes around.

11970:

underage Albanian with poor knowledge of history (but with typical rich hatred and envy for Greeks), a supposedly romantic Irish freedom-fighter who doesn't even know where the pre-communist geogaphical region of Macedonia is located, and a bunch of similarly unserious and biased people who are questioning the integrity of this article. If you want to do this then go on and do it yourself, but without my support. If I support this now then it means that I'll have to go through this again, and again, and again, everytime an ex-commie Balkanite nationalist is trying to falsify the history of others in order to feel better for his miserable self (rings a bell REX?). And as I said, some people have more important things to do in their lives. Thus has sayeth the wise

4890:

had never ever anything to do with Macedonia, not in antiquity, not in Hellenistic times, not in Byzantium (you even deny that Byzantines were the Greeks), not in the Ottoman Empire, I mean honestly what about today? Are there any Greeks present in Macedonia or is it another Greek propaganda? For F's sake, before you accuse others take a look at yourself. You have never offered any real contribution to wikipedia, all you do is watch and propagate on what you consider as "Bulgarian-related articles". You are a virus to this encyclopedia and every means of neutral information that exists - I really find it extremely ironic that you're shameless enough to criticise me or anybody else for that matter. You're not even in position to criticise Istirbinski.

8057:

with the situation to fall into that trap, besides, that's one of the targets of the Slavomacedonian propaganda (to attract pity). Well for what it matters, the Slavs were the ones who invaded the region of Macedonia in the middle-ages just like the English invaded Scotland and Ireland. Despite what fanatic Balkanites claim, the native population of the region has been Greek since ancient times, I think that's an undisputed fact which is constantly tried to be swept under the rug. Lastly, in case you didn't know, the region of FYROM is not the region that has been historically known as Macedonia, it was only baptised "Macedonia" in the 20th century in order to lay-land claims to the authentic region of Macedonia which lies in Northern Greece (See

6408:

According at least to Roudometoff, the tranformation of the regional identity into a national one happened as a result of the "attempt at forceful acculturation (understand assimilation) of the Macedonian Slavs in Greece and Serbia during the interwar period" or something like this. There is also the linguistic differences between the western Macedonian dialects and eastern Bulgarian. The situation in Pirin Macedonia is very curious as the vast majority of the population there continues to have a regional Macedonian identity and a Bulgarian national one and you can meet people who could tell u that "they are Macedonians" and straight afterwards that "all Macedonians are Bulgarians".

4290:) in the UN is not standardized? It is standardized, and it's in general use for 60 years. I have already given you links of hundreds of UN documents that are explicitely referring to them as Macedonians. Also, I have provided you with a specific article in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights that nobody can deprive someone of his right to a nationality. Their nationality is Macedonian. Moreover, I have given you examples where someone (Council of Europe) actually did try to relativize that they are Macedonians, and how it ended. For the millionth time, the name of the nationality was never disputed in the United Nations. Do I have to cite the resolution: 1355:'s population. In their mind, the other inhabitants of Macedonia are not Macedonians but Greeks, Bulgarians, Albanians and whatever else, i.e. Macedonia is populated by "Macedonians" and "non-Macedonians". However oxymoronic this may be, it must of course imply that the "Macedonians" have a special connection to Macedonia that the other ethnic groups do not, even if these other peoples have lived in Macedonia centuries longer and form the majority of its population. And a special connection implies special rights, to the history, the heritage, and the land of Macedonia, from which the "non-Macedonians" are excluded by definition: "Macedonia for the Macedonians".-- 953:

tries to act in a politically civil way gets smeared by the other and will therefore eventually loose any forthcoming election. While outdoing each other at claiming the whole world and its surrounding are Greek ever since the begining of time, the unfortunate Greek citizens have swallowed up this politcal muck with delight. It only takes one glipmse of any ancient Greek statue to realise that contemporary Athenians have aboslutely nothing to do with these strange and distant people. But science is "believing when I see it" and religion is "seeing when I believe it" so the Greek arguments are belief based mumbo-jumbo. Having doubts? See for yourself and comparer

11363:

reader to draw its own conlusions whether we should call people X Macedonian Slavs or Macedonians. As it is, it can lead to suspicious interpretations (as proved in the past) - technically, even "because People X are evil communists" is a reason why not call this people "Macedonians", but it is not an agreed fact. On the other hand "People X find the term Macedonian Slavs offensive, while Greeks find the use of Macedonians when referring to this ethnic group as an offense." is an agreed fact. The point is, we should give the neutral reader agreed facts and resources, and let him decide on its own. Also, there is a need for an update of the 'resources' section.

3533:

million Macedonians around the world. We do not have enought influence and strenght as Greece has, which is much more powerful and richer country than Macedonia. The Macedonian-Greek question is too hard and too complicated to solve. History can be interpreted in 1000 ways, especially on a teritory like the Balcany, where there are so many nations on so little space. Fortunately, DNA testings are getting more and more reliable and soon it will be possible to be used to acuratelly show the origin of our nations. I hope that then the denyal of me, my history, culture and existance will finaly stop. It is very disapointing that Knowledge takes a part in all that.

4952:

tends to cluster towards the major parties at the expense of smaller parties in national elections, it is likely that the Rainbow party decided to skip national elections altogether in favor of the Euro- ones, as they thought their showing would be even poorer. Voter turnout in national elections is higher that in Euro- ones (compare 7.6 million vs. 6 million votes cast in the 2004 national and Euro- elections respectively, an manifestation of the so-called "Euro-apathy"). If I'm not mistaken, in past national elections they have formed a coalition with the "Organization for the Reconstruction of the Communist Party of Greece", a fringe far-left group of

4577:

recognises FYROMians as "Macedonians", I'm going to stick that document in the article. In the meantime I'm making a copromise revert by restoring the part where FYROM politicians refer to the people as Macedonian Slavs, and you have no argument to remove it. The name dispute against Greece is about both name of the country and its nationality, and since the UN hasn't settled on an official name for the former, neither it does for the latter. Your edits imply that the UN have recognised this nationality as "Macedonian", it doesn't mention explicitly that it's only called so by convenience. This is a pure act of propaganda, which I urge you to save for the

4171:, that is the lamest an argument can get. Someone disagrees with you, he is brainwashed, a part of propaganda. I might also say that you are a part of propaganda (but no, perish the tought that Mr.Chronographos might be under the influence of social and media forces!) I had the integrity to openly condemn some Macedonian nationalist thesis, while you openly keep defending Greek POV positions (some Greeks actually agreed that Macedonians (nationality) is the best solution), and some of those have been unamiously ridiculed by the neutrals (the template idea). So, Chronographos, please stop attacking me, and just for a change, bring out some arguments. -- 8015:. You promote your nationality as Greek (not Macedonian), Bulgarians say they are Bulgarian, Albanians say that they are Albanian etc. If Ronaldo says he is Brazilian, will you deny that only because he spent 5 of the last 8 years in Spain and the other 3 in Italy? That is why you have the words region, nation and country... by using them you can make difference between them all. If you want to reffer to thge inhabitants of the region Macedonia, use that exact naming: inhabitants of the region Macedonia. But, when you reffer to the people in the Republic of Macedonia, if they feel Macedonian, you should call then Macedonians. 1710:

similar in this respect, including the Macedonian and Greek ones. Thus the only correct resolution is to delete this article. A deadline should be given by which any of its content could be re-used in the Macedonians article. That article contains many varied interpretations of what Macedonians could or should be and there is already some mention of Macedonian Slavs. Once this is done we can proceed to attribute the label of Macedonian Slavs as one held sometimes by some Greek politics in the Macedonians article itself. Please set a deadline for deletion and thanks for your facilitaton of these discussions.--

2019:. And believe me, Albanians are not offended of the use of the term "Macedonians", in fact they would probably find that use for them offensive. I already suggested that plain "Macedonians" designation won't be used, but Macedonians (people), Macedonians (nation) or whatever. That does not deprive Macedonian Greeks of their right of the term "Macedonians", they will continue using the name (and be referred to) with the same meaning of "Macedonians" that they have always used it - as a regional identifier. Greeks will use it as a regional identifier, while Macedonians as an ethnic identifier. -- 3677:

Japanese culture then its more Chinese by fare than Japanese) 4.the historical rule (if Egyptians keep fighting the Arabs then they would find it hard being accepted into the Arab society even if they meet other criteria) 5.the intentions rule (if you want to be called British then the first thing you must do is bow to the Queen and to the British government. You can’t claim to be British but demand some mysterious independence of some part of Britain) 6.the acceptance rule ( you must accept the nation that you are claiming to be a part of as do all the member of that people)

3300:

honest way is to see if the positive Greek claim (i.e that modern Greeks 'are' descendents from the ancients - and the wholy and rightful one's in the minds of many fanatics) stands up to facts, and the facts are that modern Greeks do not look anything like the ancients, CASE CLOSED. Thus any Greek monopoly to its linkage to anything "ancient Greece" is ideological, i.e. its imagined in the minds of Greeks but it is not an objective truth. If you understand this, you will be happier as you will step of your imaginary pedestal and finally join humanity at large. --

3510:

nation, which was a direct reason for my reaction. My grandfather is born in 1911th. Yesterday I had a talk with him. He took a part in the strugle for independence since 1925th and he took a part in the 2nd world war. He is alive and personal prove that Knowledge is full of bullshit and lies about our origin. He spent half of his life proving and fighting for that. He was shot 3 times, all 3 from the Bulgarians who wanted to ocupy Macedonia in the Balkan wars and in the WW1 and WW2. Just a 1 min with him will show you how many lies you suport in Knowledge.

2616:

do not want the "Macedonians" term for themselves) does not mean that we shouldn't call the majority of RoM "Macedonians". I actually don't know what your original point was - Don't call them Macedonians because 2,5 million Macedonian Greeks and 0,5 Macedonian Albanians will get offended? (definitely not true for the Albanians) What about 1,5 million Macedonians who will get offended by the "Slavs" add-on? Then the real logic behind your arguments shows up - 2,5 million offended people is more than 1,5 million offended people - so label them "Slavs". Humm,

9402:- the Agreed Facts section was not vandalized (that I can see in this version anyway) and it should probably not be expanded, since there aren't many more agreed facts. The section to which you seem to be referring is entitled "options", the remnant of the fact that two names were options in the poll. They list arguments for and against both names, and as such will not be "agreed" or "NPOV", but they should still be worded as if they were written by somebody who doesn't care either way. Maybe we should rename the sections to make it clearer? 4846:", "who wishes to address the Assembly?", the phrase which commenced open debate in the assembly of the people of Ancient Athens. It was the first time in history that it was instituted that every citizen who wished to speak about politics had the unalienable right to do so. Whether FlavrSavr or Miskin throw a fit afterwards is no reason whatsoever for anyone to censor him- or herself. For example, names that would fit the geographical area best would be "Vardarska Republika", or, if they insist of some ancient past of sorts, 886:

Greece, consist of Epirus, Macedonia and Thrace. MACEDONIA in greek is written ΜΑΚΕΔΟΝΙΑ and if you have a greek or unicode font, you can see the absolute similarity. People who live in this area call themselves Macedonians. There is a historical continuity in the usage of the name, and certainly noone persecuted people during the last 100 years because they identified as Macedonians. The claims about ethnic cleansing are out of this world. And Macedonians are no minority, they are some millions, perhaps 30 or 40% of Greeks.

12508:

links between Pomaks in Greece (speaking a Bulgarian-based language) and Bulgarians, and the consequent Pomaks’ assimilation into the Turkish ethnic and, by now, national identity in Western Thrace, an assimilation here detrimental to Greece’s homogenization and anti-minority policies. In another Balkan context, such attitude helped distance the literary Macedonian language standardized by Yugoslav authorities in the late 1940s from Bulgarian to which the previously spoken dialects in Yugoslav Macedonia were heteronomous

12282:

Those were different times and different ideologies, Metaxas was a dictator not even liked by most Greek people, you'd be really stupid to accuse contemporary Greeks for his actions. You're the ones who are stuck in the early 19th nation-building mythology, you hate Greeks almost in the same way that Arabs hate Jews. They don't know why they hate them, they just know they have to, because hating somebody and blaming him for your own misery makes you feel better. What will you find next to whine about? Maybe

3550:

the Bulgarians and you wrote it. What about centuries of incidents, murders, wars, assimilation made by the Bulgarians towards the Macedonians? What about the fact that Bulgaria and Greece do not allow the Macedonian parties in those countries to register and take a part in the ellections? This is something that was taken even to the European court. HOW CAN WIKIPEDIA IGNORE THIS??? BTW, Radko had just about 50 delegates and members. Most of them born in Bulgaria and moved latter in their life in Macedonia.

2894:

respects the rule of law and due process as a member of the European Union: by far the most law-abiding group of states in the world. You are also implying that Greece is somehow collectively responsible because some of your country's officials are corrupt and eager to be bribed. You are so certain of the correctness of your beliefs, that you grievously offend the United Nations by saying that what the UN does violates its own charter. I hope your absence will do you good, even if you wish the contrary.

12233:". Doing so would make me feel silly because I'm not even 100% sure whether you're really serious about it. I think you're still willingly blind to the fact that there hasn't been a single historical record of a Macedonian Slav nation prior to the 20th century. So unless you bring up some unbiased evidence that remotely implies what you claimed, there's no need for anyone to give a reason during reverting. And something tells me that you'll never be able to find that evidence unless you invent it. 2387:", and they have specifically asked for a differentiation between them and (ethnic) Macedonians. Talking about who gets offended - the only ones offended are the Macedonians when some right-wing Albanian parties (deliberately) call them Slavs (as a notion of cultural inferiority of Macedonians). If you're not convince try to label a modern Macedonian Albanian (ask him, for example, "are you a Macedonian?") and see what happens. The most probable answer would be ("No, I'm an Albanian living there"). 11082:, if you were referring to my shouting, of which I was well aware of, I'll try to explain why I reacted that way. Naturally, it takes a great deal that I am a Macedonian myself, but that's besides the point. The point is that this lasts too long, despite some obvious violation of Knowledge policies and guidelines. I've spent months of argumenting, reasoning, investigating the Knowledge policies in discussions, yet I still feel ignored - for example, why has nobody answered to my questions at the 2377:

and the other "Slavs" (in your example you haven't made a distinction between Macedonians and Serbs) and 2. offensive because it negates a) the right of a modern nation for self-determination b) the ethnic complexities of that modern nation. The modern Greek nation is not an exception - in fact, modern Greeks are a result of the mixing of ancient Greeks with other non-Greek people, most notably (and ironically) Slavs. That is precisely why modern nations are not called Celts, Latins, Normans etc.

31: 4056:

link between antrhopology and the national socialism. It's only used by naive people who were too scared to face reality and prefer to avoid it. The specific book is taught in universities (hence its constant republication) and it has nothing to do with the pseudo-scientific racism of the 3rd Reich. Until you read it you can have no opinion on it. What you'd like to be called "insignificant minority view" is in fact the scientific view, but of course I'd never expect you to admit that.

1251:

of the ancient kingdom of Macedon, and an obscure early Christian sect. So one could never call the (Slav) Macedonians simply "Macedonians" in an article name; it would have to be at "Macedonians (people)" to disambiguate it from all the other meanings. The reason why we don't use that terminology at the moment is because the Greek nationalist POV is that only Greeks have a right to call themselves Macedonians. This is a controversial position, to put it mildly! --

12674:

letters. Have you ever asked yourself why your alphabet and your religion resemble so much the Greek one? The entire world knows the answer instead of your little ex-communist country. Well you're not obliged to believe me, you can remain in ignorance if you want. Just keep it away from the articles and everything will be ok. If you continue pushing such ridiculous POV then I'll just stop being nice and will have an administrator settle this once and for all.

1570:

should present competing views in proportion to their representation among experts on the subject, or among the concerned parties. None of this, however, is to say that minority views cannot receive as much attention as we can possibly give them on pages specifically devoted to those views. There is no size limit to Knowledge. But even on such pages, though a view is spelled out possibly in great detail, we still make sure that the view is not represented as

9438:

disaster, and I wouldn't like to comment about it. The 'Resources' section is also vandalized - notice the caps locked statements, the links to .gr sites etc. Also, I think that there can be a general conclusion that the international organisations do refer to this ethnic group as Macedonians. When it comes to the international media, there is a visible trend of reducing the "Macedonian Slavs" term. BBC officially apologized for using that term. --

3653:

ship from Spain. Kind of strange wouldn’t it be if someone started screaming that he is Spanish but he doesn’t want to be apart of Spain !! no he wants Spain to divide in 4 peaces and to give him (and his peoples) one of those peaces. That just HAS to be against the rules !!!. That’s not wanting to be Spanish that's trying to start some war or national tension """ and i think the planet already has enough of that for us to accept more of it.

4521:

nation. That would have been an argument strong enough to resolve the name-debate in the UN, not in a wiki discussion page. My argument was that since FYROM politicians have in various occasions used the term "Slav Macedonians", then the term "Slav" is not a racial slur, and your main counter-argument is automatically nullified. Plain and simple, the reference stays. If your politicians are using racial slurs then don't vote for them.

12346:

Macedonian). This title has to do with the province of the Byzantine Empire and doesn't imply an origin to an ethnicity which didn't even exist until some 1000 later. In Byzantium the "Macedonians" were the people in Northern Greece. The Macedonian dynasty is historical evidence that backs up the Greek position in the name conflict, you're just too ignorant to realise it. By the way the real origin of the Macedonian Emperors was

10211:: "After the German invasion of Greece in 1941, his theory was adopted and promoted by the Nazis, as there was a need to rationalize the discrepancy between the Nazi's admiration of the Ancient Greeks and their brutal treatment of their modern counterparts. Finally in the 1990s, after a long lull, interest in Fallmerayer's theories was renewed when the Macedonian question re-emerged in the news." It would appear that young 12505:

corresponding standard language) and increasing their autonomy (by assigning them the status of autonomous languages). As a result, the minority language’s vulnerability grew significantly, as well as the dissociation of the speakers’ ethnic (Arvanite, Vlach, Slavophone) identities from the corresponding national identities (Albanian, Romanian, Macedonian) which have developed in the respective modern nation-states.

6347:

comes here and makes an edit to the effect that "the present-day Macedonians regard themselves as descendants of Alexander the Great and the Ancient Macedonians", you can easily make an edit to the effect that "however, this is strongly contested even in RoM itself as Macedonian politicians have asserted many times that the present-day Macedonians are Slavs and they have nothing to do with the ancient Macedonians".

4418:. Moreover, how come only politicians matter, while the vast majority of the Macedonians in RoM, doesn't. Excuse, but your reasoning can be describe like this "Some prominent rappers have used "Niggers" as a self-identifying" term for their race, and therefore the use of Niggers within this article is not meant to be offensive to this race.". What gives you the right to determine what's offensive and what's not? -- 7585:

bear that name, but it is an objective fact that they identify themselves as such, and are identified by the majority as such. So, to conclude: Chronographos, you are making a false accusation: I am not striving for the monopolization of the term. Neither does the Greek Helsinki Watch, nor the UN, nor the CoE, or every international organization - they are simply respecting the Universal Charter of Human Rights -

8291:

which was at least 15-20 centuries before the moment when the modern nations were getting formed. It is simple: all of us in the region (whether Greek, Macedonian, Bulgarian, Albanian and even Romanian) have conections to Macedon and those people. To be honest, I wouldn't be proud to be connected with Alexander the Great, a person who was even bigger killer than Hitler was, but I am, same as you are.

4814:

was talking about Miskin's inclination to make inflammatory edits which diverge from the truth. As it is quite clear that the Macedonian Slavs themselves regard the name as inflammatory and call themselves Macedonians. The examples Miskin gave do not support in the slightest bit what he wrote and he proves yet again that he's here just to wreak havoc and confusion. Well, I've had enough of that.

12026:, where the Greek romantic nationalists, totally oblivious to reality, assume that they are the only ones with the right to call those artefacts their own; the reality being that a new owner legitimately took possession of them. If you look at reality today, you will see that Greece is just a country like any other with no special rights or privileges that her neighbours lack. Greece is in the 7927:. That is of course unless you're afraid. Britannica, Hutchinson, Webster, Phillip's and Ethnologue don't seem to be having the doubts you have. I doubt that they are written by Macedonian nationalists, but I believe that they are written by scholars who are sensitive and insightful and above all NEUTRAL. Unlike you whose purpose here is to disrupt Knowledge. That is what you are doing. 3645:

and really think you are Spanish we stop speaking German for starters and start acting like a Spaniard... otherwise you're neither Spanish nor German. In which case you can choose to create a new people (that is a nice option. I am sure the United Nations would give you a hand) or you can choose to not have a national and ethnical identity (that would be original if nothing else).

12488:

Balkan countries (Serbia, Bulgaria, Romania, and later Albania) had also followed similar policies. As elsewhere in Europe, army and education were the most effective mechanisms of Hellenization, assisted by the judiciary system ready to denounce and punish all forms of behavior inconsistent with the state’s nationalist culture (Kitromilidis, 1990:38; Kollias, 1994).

6020:

firmly entrenched here and that such a pogrom will never happen. I am not sure what you mean by "questions" raised by the film "Alexander". Everyone agrees that Alexander was probably more homosexual than heterosexual, and the film is rather straightforward about it. Or gayforward, if you so prefer. I am surprised you find it such a big deal. Or maybe I'm not

1979:, which includes the Flemish and the Walloons. Therefore until the name dispute is resolved, one has no choice but to use ethnic designations (e.g. Macedonian Slavs vs. ethnic Albanians). The plain "Macedonian" designation is apparently offensive both to Macedonian Greeks (who number 2,500,000 million) and to the ethnic Albanian citizens of the Former Yugoslav 2439:... In general, this is true. However, there are some logical fallacies in your reasoning. First of all, international institutions (including UN, EU etc.) already refer to people X as Macedonians and it is likely that they will continue to do so, regardless of the solution of the name of the state. That is because they follow international law which in the 10302:, I am 18 years old. If you have ever been to university that is the age most people start. Before that you have to pass you GCE A-levels. The Λύκειο as they call it in Greece. Why, do such students not study history. So much for the Greek education system then. Isokratis is obviously full of it. Also, Theathenae STOP using sockpuppets, we know it's you. 3145:

conflicts by using an obviously improper term. Most academic sources I've come across refer to 'Macedonian Slavs' as "Western Bulgarians", or "Bulgarians of Macedonia" (C. Coon - The Races of Europe), and they do this for a reason. I'm not saying that this is the name wikipedia should use, what I'm saying is that wikipedia has the same academic reason to

7780:

advise you to behave like an adult and accept what you cannot change. These people are practically called Macedonians by everyone except the Greeks! The Greek view is the minority view here. Because you are so concerned with the majority being the right way to go then you shouldn't object to the usage of the term Macedonians. This is a clear display of

5572:, I know that this may seem a rather difficult task for you to perform, but if you think fairly you will see that on NO occasion did I call you anything that you mention above (I may have implied them though). Also, I have no problem with personal attacks, I am used to them now thanks to certain Greeks on Knowledge. The page you are looking for is at 827:

genocide and ethnic cleansing. They outlawed the term Macedonia and proceeded to rename this region "Northern Greece". They changed the names of Macedonian people, villages, and landmarks from Macedonian to Greek. Bulgaria and Greece continue to deny the existence of their large Macedonian minorities to this day and refuse to grant them human rights.

2158:, the terms "British" and "Britain" being used only expeditiously as they fail to include the kingdom's Irish component. Indeed, officials try to use the term "UK" as often as is practical for that very reason. Frankly I fail to see how this situation applies to the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, other than to point out the importance of 9448:

group), Macedonians (nationality), Macedonians (people) etc. It's meaning should be visible depending on the context. We should clarify that the article is not about the Ancient Macedonians, nor the other Macedonians that are using this term as a regional identifier. Therefore, involvement of neutral editors as mediators is an objective need. --

7642:

policy. I think it is only a matter of time until this is changed. Because the RfC doesn't work (it didn't attract significant number of neutral editors), I guess I'd be taking the dispute to Mediation. Knowledge has rules and policies, and it is shame that they aren't enough human resources (I guess that's the problem) to implement them. --

8287:

Despite the Greek presure, this number is quickly rising. Even USA, a country which has close to 1 million people with Greek origin recognized our name as it is: Republic of Macedonia. Not to mention the names of China, Russia, then the parlaments of Great Britain, Germany and Italy (soon Spain too), all of the last Greek partners in EU.

4503:, that X,Y,Z said "Slav Macedonians" on several ocassions, and that's why the reader, or the ethnic group in question, shouldn't find it offensive, is simply, absurd. It's like saying that the Greek Helsinki Watch refers to them as "ethnic Macedonians", and that's why Greek Macedonians, shouldn't find the name "Macedonians" offensive. -- 11989:"Dear" Miskin... just to remind you that Macedonia left the comunism as soon as it got independent from ex-Yugoslavia. Before that, anyone who tried the same was inprisoned. Nad, if you forgot, half of the Greek population was comunist too... have you forgot the civil war? And, what the hell comunist or not has to do with this issue? 4921:

other academic institution in the world. The fact that you regard it as something that we should have been all familiar of, proves what kind of delusional nationalist you're. Take my advice and stick to the Bulgarian wikipedia - if you can even speak Bulgarian that is. Otherwise stick to your day job (let me guess, civil servant?).

2372:... No, that's not the ethnic composition of the country - there's no such ethnic group called "Slavic", not even a state called "Slavia". I'm under the impression that the Greeks cannot fully understand the concept of "Slavic" just because in the Greek case the ethnic group (Greeks) is not a subgroup of any other group of peoples. 2262:(Chronographos)... - international policy (every relevant international institution) and every government (except Greece, and maybe Romania) refers to Macedonians as Macedonians, and this is not a recent situation - they have been called by that name for about 60 years. Moreover, Knowledge has a clear NPOV policy which states that: 8723:. What dreadful language. Obviously the utilisation of barbaric rude language is a characteristic of Greeks. He is not giving them a good name, is he? Apparently they use bad language when they have no sources to promote their arguments and try to scare their opponents into submission. Well, that's not going to happen, is it? 7993:

redirect to Britannica, Google or what have you. So don't patronise me, Grandpa, it will be to no avail. I am rather flattered that you have busied yourself reading my contributions and copying my style. I hope that your, apparently ample, free time has been enriched by your reading what I have written. You have

3554:

the existance of the Macedonian nation. And that is not because I was told so by Tito. Macedonians were Macedonians far far before Tito. That is a fact that NOONE can change. How dare you deny everything what I am? How dare you to deny 1000s of killed people, who gave their lives for FREE and INDEPENDENT Macedonia?

1720:"Macedonian Slavs" is not a label "held sometimes by some Greek politics"; it has been used fairly widely in the international media, especially to differentiate the majority ethnic group of the FYROM from its non-Slavic minorities, particularly the Albanians. In Rumania it is used to distinguish people X from the 4877:

Slavs given as a co-option, as well. In articles where the names Macedonians and especially the adjective "Macedonian" can cause confusion (like the present one), the optional Macedonian Slavs and the adjective Macedonian Slav/Slav Macedonian should be used. In articles where there is no danger of confusion (like

5994:)! Since I cannot think of any Slavomacedonian who has ever achieved international fame, I will leave this noble task to you. I am sure you are eminently qualified for it and will pursue it with due diligence. Your intellectual gifts are exceptional and your mother must be very proud of you, and justly so. 4947:(0.098 % of the total vote). Their best single return was in the prefecture of Florina, where they garnered about 1200 votes (out of 36,000 cast). In other prefectures in the vicinity they got a few hundred votes at best and a few dozens at worst. Detailed election results by prefecture can be found at the 1154:

neutral and reliable Knowledge calls them Macedonian Slavs". From the start, I wasn't insisting on the term "Macedonians", I think that Macedonians (nationality), Macedonians (people), Macedonians (nation) should be used as a name for this article. I found out that it this acceptable for moderate Greeks. --

11773:

Arvanites, same as Macedonians, Turkish, Bulgarians etc) are represed, not allowed to have any education on their language, not allowed to have any activity for preserving their own culture and language... simply, many basic human rights are taken away from these people just because they do not feel Greek.

8052:(which can be ethnically Albanian, Turkish, Bulgarian, Serbian etc). So in fact, the addition of the term "Slavs" serves for that very purpose, i.e. identify the ethnic group which is supposed to be the representative of the state. So according to the logic of your arguments, we should change the name of 1462:. The neighbouring region is simply "Greece" and its inhabitants are simply "Greeks", unless of course they happen to speak Slavic, in which case they may rightfully be called "Macedonians". Of course, there are always those old-school irredentists who think the international border should be defined by 8150:. The Macedonian government has said many times that they have no expansionist ambitions. This country is in economic crisis, has little cultural awareness and has limited defence forces. You surely aren't suggesting that they will even attempt anything against a NATO and EU member. All I know is that 13401:

I am not planing to involve in history issues. We are talking about the todays reality that is clear: Macedonians are distinct ethnicity and they do not see themselves as a subset of any other ethnicity. Their natural and historical name is Macedonians, which is the only name that they identify with.

13055:

Greece vigorously denies the existence of any ethnic minorities on its territory and attempts to suppress any voices that advocate human rights. Simply raising the issue of the Macedonian minority in Greece causes Greek citizens and politicians alike to react in outrage. The majority of Greek society

12529:

Metaxas was a dictator, and no dictator was ever representative of his nation. Albania has Northern Epirus today because the Greek communist party literally gave it to them during the Greek civil war, shortly after Metaxas' death and the end of WW2. Just this detail proves the opposite of your claims

12492:

It is noteworthy to point out though, that, before the definite development of modern Albanian nationalism, there were efforts in the 1870’s to include most Albanians under Ottoman rule in a Greek-Albanian kingdom (Castellan, 1991:333; Vakalopoulos, 1994: 243-249), just as others appealed to them for

12487:

the policy of the new Greek state was to Hellenize all the non-Greek speaking Orthodox populations within its, then limited, territory as well as in the territories of Epirus, Macedonia, Thrace and Asia Minor still under Ottoman rule, which were though considered as part of Greek irredenta; the other

11992:

One last question... What stupidity is to characterise the defending of my identity as nationalistic move? Nationalism is what you do: deny my right to choose my nationality, attack me and several other users on nationalistic bases (no matter they are all of different nationalities). So, according to

11859:

and the Arvanites of North-West Greece the right to call themselves whatever they please, but they seem to display such sensitivity when it comes to what to call the Arvanites of Attica. I wouldn't take them too seriously as they are obviously one of these far-right Greek extremists who would rather

11519:

On the other hand, I met many Greeks during my life, especially in the last 2-3 years. Like it or not, recently the use of the term Macedonians for us (even between the Greeks) is rapidly growing. Actually, I do not know any Greek that often visits Macedonia that still does not recognize as as simply

11200:

Look, I'm not saying that you are a nationalist, or unreasonable, or anything. But, just like the rest of them, you continue this endless ping-pong match. If you are discussing something relevant, and somebody jumps in with a stupid remark, don't answer them. Just ignore them. We all know by now what

10934:

It is natural for anyone to react on attacks. Most of us (including me) are in our 20s, which makes us quite young and inexperienced. So, it is normal to act sometimes as children, because our childhood is not too far away. But, that doesn't mean that we can not judge and make our mind on complicated

10259:

REX I had studied the world war 2, in the past. After you do the same, come back and we might be able to discuss it. Till then don't mess Hitler with X-Files. Beside that, one should also notice that you repeatedly associated me with far-right-wing-etc (aka nazis) and then you used Hitler's arguments

10230:

Maybe they accepted their theories (no matter of the reason), but it is a fact they Fallmerayer was not influenced by them when making this theory. I do not support him completely, but non of us can be sure what is historical truth and what is a fiction. Winners were always the ones who were writting

9821:

again. Excellent! Well, you must remember that certain low standards in certain sectors are to be expected of Albania considering its recent history. But Greece, Greece has no excuse for breaking basic Human Rights, especially considering the aid they have received from the EU (including the UK). See

8796:

Maybe you should stop the nationalistic naming such as "Albanian" and "Macedonian" (or whatever you write). The fightings that happened in 2001st were definitely not because of people like me or User:Rex. It was a product of nationalistic racists, such as you are. And I kind of don't understand: What

8286:

Firstable, Macedonia has officially recognized name. Just Greece and Cyprus use another name than Republic of Macedonia in direct contacts with us. Also, more than 110 nations (of about 150 with which we have direct diplomatic relations) recognize Macedonia under the same name: Republic of Macedonia.

8224:

I would like to express my oppinion that no one is perfect, so mistakes can be made. But, in this case only Knowledge is making a mistake promoting an non-existant and unaccepted name for our nation. I will repeat again... no one of us identifies with the name Macedonian Slav. We are all Macedonians,

7829:

opposed you usign the name Macedonia or Macedonian for yourself. You are actually the one who want to monopolise the name and not let us using it. If you feel as Macedonian, say it to the world. Even if you do, your identity will still be Greek. But do not try to stop me to use the only identity that

7426:

OK, I've been off this discussion for a while. This is due to objective factors (lack of time) and due to subjective reasons (frustration, because this lasts too long, despite its absurdity). And, I am again and again, repeating my position on this matter quoting what should be the alpha and omega of

7302:

we may not have to push this thing further. Personally, I feel that the name Macedonian Slavs cannot be used because there are more than one Slavic ethnic groups in the wider region of Macedonia which spans three states. There are, as well as the ethnic group we are discussing now, the Bulgarians who

7182:

What does this tell us? Maybe that most of REX's ludicrous claims are the result of his own ignorance? Alas this "anti-Greek" attitude is quite typical for certain masses of troubled Albanians and other envious Balkanite "developing", ex-commie nations... I think a point is made, you lack fundamental

6767:

I don't care if your Carleton Coon textbooks told you that we are only a Slavic crowd, and I don't care that you think that a GDP of a country necessarily mean that the country is on a higher "socio-political level". Nazi Germany was one of the wealthiest countries when it slaughtered 6 million Jews.

6759:

as a protest because they do not want to be labeled as such, I believe that we can say that they do find it offensive. I didn't send a postcard, but I do find it offensive. Interview 1000 of them, asking this question: "Are you Macedonians or Macedonians Slavs", 990 of them will answer "Macedonians".

6748:

Macedonian citizens have sent more than 210,000 postcards to the Council of Europe supporting the use of that country's constitutional name Republic of Macedonia, "Utrinski vesnik" reported on 8 April. The postcards reading "Say Macedonia," "Call me by my name!" and "Don't you FYROM me!" were printed

6276:

sounds good, if he has won an award then he must have made a significant contrubution to humanity. Now we need politicians/millitary officers. Do you know who the first president of Macedonia was, because we could use him; Also, any communist officials who reached high office of state during the Tito

6154:

that I am in some way repressed, I wish I knew how you came up with that. This is a well known tactic of yours trying to avoid discussing the article but changing the subject because you know that you don't have any sources to support your Greek POV views here. I also advise you to stop commenting on

6008:

about the main character. Questions I really want to know the true answer to, not the answer the Greeks promote. As for the mentioning of mothers, YOU started it and you do it often, you should stop it! I cannot think of any famous Macedonians either, so we should probably ask I Sterbinski or someone

5989:

sexuality, except maybe yours and that of your close ones. And since your own sexuality seems to be a source of ego-dystonic feelings, I opted for the next-closer person whose sexuality must be "unquestionable". If this is objectionable to you, fine, the subject is dropped. I obviously never meant

4889:

For crying out loud VMORO, don't you have the slightest feeling of self-judgement? You create multiple IDs and edit entire articles (supposedly as different editors) in order to support your nationalist myths of a Greater Bulgaria which reaches down to the Aegean sea. You constantly imply that Greeks

4881:

or the demographics article of RoM) only Macedonians should be used with a link to this article and not to the disambiguation. This is, in my opinion, a civilised way to deal with this issue. It's a completely different question that the Greeks would get a heart attack when they hear the proposal and

4876:

If you want my sincere opinion: the right to self-determination comes before anything else. So if the Macedonian Slavs want to call themselves Macedonians in English, they should be called in this way. The way they can be entered here is Macedonians (ethnic group) or something similar with Macedonian

4813:

Well, I don't think we disagree on anything whatsoever. The question as to whether the Slavs in RoM should be called "Macedonian Slavs" or "Macedonians" in Knowledge is one thing. I don't intend to dig into it again, for me both names are equally inappropriate. But I wasn't talking about it at all. I

4467:

4460:

4132:

3648:

4. He must not have recently had military problems with the majority of the already recognized Spaniards. It would be funny if a Catalonian suddenly started calling himself Spaniard now wouldn’t it?. Even though he has large similarities with the Spanish and meets all previous rules the fact that his

3448:

Greece says that 7,3% (officially according to the census of 2001) are foreigners. Now days they estimated that 9% of the ppl in Greece are foreigners. So obviously u can't claim that Greek census or even the Greek government are unreliable. They give a higher number than the rest major countries and

3222:

Since you people insist on being official, then official we shall get. I just demonstrated that the term "Macedonian Slav" not only is not an ethnic slur, but is also used by Macedonian Slav poticians. Therefore any person from FYROM who keeps insisting the opposite, is blatantly coming from a biased

3037:

I think Chronographos revealed were the real dispute lays. The problem is not, as you deliberately claim, the greek denial to an other nation to call itself as it likes. Do you honestly believe that we would have any problem if you were not using propaganda? I would personally feel very honoured if a

2745:

is that they are not in the spirit of UN), negotiations about the name of people X (individual or group right of selfdetermination) are not legitimate under the UN. In fact, that is precisely why these 178 UN documents refer to people X as Macedonians. The right of self-determination is an indisputed

2498:

The ugly word "blackmail" was an emotional reaction of political reality. However that reality is much uglier - how can be Greek political actions be else described when they are put like this: "Pick another name" (or politically correct "Broaden your view") "...or else" ("another embargo", "we won't

2470:, not as Macedonians Slavs, Macedonian Bulgarians, FYROMians, Skopjeans, or Skopje Gypsies (as one grafitti in northern Greece states "Death to Skopje Gypsies"). Their right for that is indisputable by international law. These basic principles (Human rights) are established to prevent a violation of 2312:

Knowledge should not attempt to say which side is right or wrong. However, the fact that the Cabindans call themselves Cabindans is objectively true – both sides can agree that this does in fact happen – whereas the claim that the Cabindans have no moral right to that name is purely subjective and is

1709:

is right - the discussion is pointless, and so is this article. But she is somewhat idealistic and misguided in nurturing excpectations that it is easy to have "an objective description" of a political category. There is nothing objective about an expression of political will and all nationalisms are

1637:

No, it is a minority in global proportions, because only a minority of media, books of reference, goverments refer to people X as Macedonian Slavs. Please don't go to ethnic lines again, believe me, I'm not comfortable there. Knowledge is not a place for ethnic frustrations, from either of the sides.

1522:

parallel should be mentioned here. According to the "special rights" theory, these people who, for various reasons, choose not to be Serbs, Croats, Slovenes, Macedonians, Montenegrins, Bosniaks etc., but simply Yugoslavs, are somehow to be considered cultural thiefs of the other peoples right to feel

1250:

Blank filled in. But the question is complicated by the fact that there are at least five separate groups that could be called "Macedonians": the modern Slavic people, the inhabitants of the Republic of Macedonia, the inhabitants of the entire region (of which the RoM is only a part), the inhabitants

1058:

I agree. The fact is that the article is where it is because of moral/political objections - in other words, POV considerations - from one side, not because it reflects common usage or self-identification. This is clearly not satisfactory with respect to the NPOV policy and it's inconsistent with how

1023:

I'm not sure it was an improvement, to be honest - it makes it sound like a disambiguated page when it's not. Consider "region of Epirus", "region of Thrace", etc. I don't think adding "region of" really adds anything. It's a region by definition; calling it "region of" seems rather like a tautology.

12814:

And, please don't mention those emptied epythets, like: Macedonian Bulgarians, Macedonian Greeks etc., because already it is obviously that is only a clear propaganda (wheter is Bulgarian or Greek). I mean, come on, even in Pakistan, there are descendents of Alexander the Great, (or Macedon-ian) who

12462:

Actually Metaxas was the first person who managed to inflict a victory upon the Axis forces. After his death and when the Germans occupied the country, Greeks were hiding the jews instead of giving them out to the nazis like the French and the Italians did. This is one of the "many other things that

11872:

REX, or whatever your name is - you kan keep your ill-chosen irony for someone else. The Albanians, Japanese, Romanians and Eskimos do not use the name Macedonians to refer to themselves, Bulgarian Macedonians do that - believing that all Macedonians are Bulgarians. If you believe that you can reach

11816:

MATIA, who do you think you are, trying to deny the Macedonians and the Arvanites of Northwest Greece their God Given RIGHT to call themselves whatever they want. The Helsinki Report clearly says that the Arvanites of Northwast Greece call themselve Shiqptar. The world is not made to please you. You

10922:

Zocky, I coudn't agree with you more. Things have gone too far. No one is trying to help solve this dispute. I think that mediation is necessary. It is the only way. Theathenae really doesn't really want to even try. He has no sources and yet he continues stubbornly POV pushing. As for FlavrSavr and

9904:

Elected? Except the permanent members, other countries take turns beeing a part of the UN security council. They vote only for confirming and I do not remember than any country was recently voted against. This is just another example how you can change the facts the way they suit you, no matter they

8664:

Is cooperation strange for you, Theathenae? Just a nationalistic mind as your labels the people with nationalities. We all live in the same world. The "Macedonian" and the "Albanian" knows what is respect, a term that you obviously forgot long time ago. Maybe we had and have problems between us, but

8529:

This is not important as a decisive factor on whether we should refer to this ethnic group as Macedonians and Macedonian Slavs (as it is a subjective criteria) to illustrate that Macedonians resent the term (although this can be use against the claim that Macedonians don't find this term offensive),

8526:

Macedonian citizens have sent more than 210,000 postcards (10% of the Macedonian citizens, my additon) to the Council of Europe supporting the use of that country's constitutional name Republic of Macedonia, "Utrinski vesnik" reported on 8 April. The postcards reading "Say Macedonia," "Call me by my

8412:

What we want is simple and short: Knowledge to use the common and the only acceptable name for our nationality: Macedonians. Evidence: Putting here the names of 2-2,5 million people all over the world who identify their nacionality as Macedonian would take a lot of time. The Greeks are the only ones

8198:

The insane person will not change his mind because of the Greek presure over the name Macedonia. It will even make him hate you and wish to invade you more. But, only an insane person can beleive that Macedonia can invade a NATO and EU member as Greece is, a country much more powerful than they are.

8033:

GrandfatherJoe I honestly thing that you're out of your element here. This article is not about "what most people officially or unofficially call the Slavomacedonians", it's about a name that best reflects reality. Why? Simply because there is no officially recognised name at the moment, neither for

7730:

is geographical region and no ethnic group living there is entitled to monopolize the term "Macedonians" for themselves: this applies equally both to the Greek majority (60%) and to the Slavic minority (35%). Indeed if anyone may claim the term "Macedonian" for themselves, it is the Greek majority,

7694:

I know that this dispute doesn't really concern me as I'm Irish, but it appears to be perfectly clear that these people are called Macedonians. These is ample evidence to suggest such a thing and after reading the whole talk page I still couldn't come up with a good reason to use the name Macedonian

7584:

article should be erased, or that modern Greek Macedonians shouldn't be referred to as Macedonians (although virtually nobody refers to that term). However, you cannot negate the existence of a modern ethnic group named Macedonians. We can have an entire article whether they have the right or not to

6877:

could find satisfaction in being confused by someone else? Imagine of a person who changes his name to "Einstein" and lies all around that he's the grandchild of Albert Einstein, and gets a satisfaction by living under this illusion (which is of course bought only by the stupidest individuals). Does

6567:. Nothing I ever did qualifies as a personal attack. You say that proof is on the talk pages. That is a lie. You are trying to convince people that there is something on the talk pages while in reality there isn't. I bet that you cannot produce even one example of my many calumnies as you call them! 6019:

You should not be generalizing about what "Greeks" promote. I understand why you, as an Albanian, are incensed by the agenda of such far-right-wing people, who also want to deport all Albanians from Greece, where lies their only hope for a decent livelihood. Rest assured that humanistic values are

4764:

Sigh- I never said that FYROM politicians are using the term "Macedonian Slavs" all the time - for crying out loud. What I said was that since FYROM politicians have at several occasions used the terms "Slavs" and "Slav Macedonians" to describe their nation, it means that "Slav" is definitely NOT an

4716:

That's one of the funniest things said in this discussion page. A sad patriotic Bulgarian from who-knows-where uses the term "Balkans" to generalise countries such as Greece, Bulgaria, Albania or FYROM - as if they're all at the same sociopolitical level. Check the GDP of each of those countries and

3626:

If these people have "played" by the rules ... then there will be no debate at all!! They will have rightfully done so to call themselves Macedonians!! Just as the Spanish people in our example will have done so as well. If these people have not meet the rules then.... sorry but you cannot call your

3562:

JUST SEARCH THE WEB, YOU CAN SEE HOW WRONG WIKIPEDIA IS!!! ONLY THE PRO-BULGARIAN AND PRO-GREEK SITES HAVE THE SAME CLAIMS AS WIKIPEDIA. MOST OF THEM ARE ONLY CLAIMS THAT ARE CONFIRMED BY FALSIFICATED LETTERS. The TURKISH WERE SUPERIOR AT THAT TIME AND ARE A NEUTRAL SIDE. AND FAR BIGGER PART OF THEM

3553:

In this case, Knowledge is only a tool in the Bulgarian and Greek propaganda of denying and stealing the Macedonian history, culture and existance. Just search the internet and you will see that this kind of 'history' can ONLY be found on pro-Bulgarian and pro-Greek web sites. I am a living prove of

3505:

I am writting about the issue of Macedonia, Republic of Macedonia, Macedonian Slavs (like Knowledge calls the Macedonians) and the problem between Macedonia and Greece about the term Macedonia. I am aware that this issue is largely discussed here, at Knowledge, and Knowledge claims that it is trying

3238:

You are a mistaken to think you can prove anything that is a historic notion. In fact, only mathematical abstractions are provable. Everything else stands as "a possible explanation" until it is disproved. One thing that is really easy to disprove is that contemporary Greeks have anything to do with

3149:

refer to that nation simply as "Macedonians". The UN and the international institution (that have never recognised an official name) don't need to follow the academic examples and settle for the most convenient term. If we were to follow simply what the international organisations use then we should

2683:

This is beyond boring. You are constantly picking and choosing the playground, so that you play by your own rules. You are constantly misrepresenting what other people say, and then you expect people to sit down and hold an honest discussion with you? What you are saying in essence is that the UN

2615:

Well it was you was busy proving that Russians living in Estonia are actually not Estonians, only because they were forcibly settled later (!?), that had came as a reply to my parallel of Estonia to the Macedonian case which was ment to illustrate that the large minority of Albanians (who, moreover,

2530:

My mistake in copy-pasting. "Country" should be replaced with "region". The fear of Macedonian occupation of Northern Greece is 1. paranoid 2. not an argument why they shouldn't be called Macedonians. What is more pathetic (excuse me if I sound aggresive) is your inability to face the answers of two

2474:

human rights. I'll take a banal example why these rights are established - Let's assume that people A want people B to be erased from the face of the planet because they think their (people B's) very existence is a threat. People B, of course, don't want that. A possible "consensus" would be, People

2376:

are a larger group of people and using Slavs as an ethnic identifier dissapeared in the Middle Ages, in the slow process of nation building and mixing with the other inhabitants of the region where Slavs have lived. Calling people X Slavs is: 1.inaccurate because it makes no distinction between them

1884:

I hate to respond to nationalistic provocations, but what are you talking about? All international institutions already officialy refer to people X as "Macedonians", and unofficialy to the name of the republic as Macedonia. Of course, Greece might try to blackmail RoM to give up of its name, but I'm

1770:

The poll was decided on grossly POV grounds - on both sides - so to be honest, I don't regard its results as binding or conclusive. Many of the participants didn't even pretend to be deciding on NPOV grounds and treated the whole exercise as a nationalistic tug of war. We even had rival nationalists

1753:

I disagree with the notion of an "objective description" as no description is objective - this is a contradiction in terms; descriptions are by their very nature subjective. There is nothing wrong with saying that a certain, or even several, political interests use the term Macedonian Slavs and this

1618:

You could have waited for yesterday to pass. Anyways, you deliberately fail to see the difference between an ethnic majority/minority and majority/minority. Believe it or not, the majority of non-Greeks and non-Macedonians, refers to Macedonians as Macedonians. Of course, the new article will have a

952:

Exactly NOT. I have never met a Greek who calls him or herself Macedonian on first enquiry. They only grab for the label when they start talking politics. Why do they do this? It's rather simple. All the Greek political parties try to outdo each other on how patriotic they are, so the first one that

891:

Of course our northern neighbours should have a name, and they do have the need to identify themselves. But can it be Macedonians? What would happen if I signed as ChrisO, or as Uncle Ed. How would you react? Wouldn't it be fallacious? If they wanted to be called Makidos or even Macintosh, how would

833:

This is all lies. Greece never outlawed the used of the name Macedonia but they did change the names of cities and town. Under Ottoman rule and due Slavic migration the Greek names of towns were changed (i.e Thessaloniki to Solun). When Macedonia was returned to Greece the Greek names were returned.

174:

The problem with the word "nationality" is that it means too many things. Many people take it to mean "ethnicity". In fact, "nationality" and "citizenship" are often used as synonyms. If you're from an EU country (some other countries, too), check the page with the photo in your passport. Item #6 is

13124:

It is more than obvious that Greece is trying to hide something. But, it won't work, the world is not blind. Especially not the human rights organizations, which all agree that the treatmentt that Greece has towards its nationalities can only be described as ultra-nationalistic. Just read the 1000s

12504:

Trudgill (1994) has shown that, in Greece, as minority languages are all alien (Abstand) to Greek, the use of different names for them (Arvanitika rather than Albanian, Vlach rather than Romanian, Slav rather than Macedonian) has contributed to denying their heteronomy (i.e. their dependence on the

12425:

Because FYROM is causing problems all over the Balkans by a)stealing history from the Bulgarians, b)stealing history form the Greeks, and c)mistreating Albanian "minority", and the list goes on. Within 15 years you have managed to completely disgrace the word "Macedonian", that's one thing you have

12408:

Tito did not create our nation. We can say that he released us from the repression from our democratic neighbours like Greece. And if your country doesn't give a crap, then why is interfiering in the internal things of Macedonia, like the one to call itself Macedonia and it's church Macedonian, and

12281:

who did nothing to people who spoke "Macedonian", simply because this language didn't exist until some years after his death. He probably performed ethnic-cleansing against Slavophones, in the same way that Bulgars and Serbs performed ethnic-cleansing against non-Slavophones in their own countries.

11700:

Before another quarrel takes place, I would like to calm the atmosphere, and prevent the further defocusing of this discussion. Zocky's right, we all know our positions by now. Before examining the detailed description of how the mediation process would be realized, first of all, we need to get the

11556:

Here is a fact that you would not like. Microsoft already anounced here in Macedonia that they will "fix the mistakes" (as said by them) in the right next edition of Encarta. That followed just few days after they received open critics from human rights organizations here in Macedonia about using a

11478:

Then why does Britannica, Ethnologue, Hutchinson, Webster, Philip's etc call them Macedonians? Are you saying that they are POV and only YOUR MIGHTY EXCELLENCE is NPOV. It must be hard for you to live in a world where everyone is POV in calling these people Macedonians and only you (and other Greek

11362:

is a great overview of this dispute. I personally find the 'options' part a bit problematic, even if we clean it up from vandalism - maybe we should put some of the facts into 'options' into the 'agreed facts' section - the combination of the 'agreed facts' and the 'resources' would itself lead the

10859:

Look, anyone can come up with a punchy ethnic slur. Most of us can even do it without resorting to vulgarity, not to mention vulgarity in languages incomprihensable to most readers. I could tell Theathenae that "It's typical that it takes a Greek to make friends out of a Slav and an Albanian". Or I

10615:

All right everyone, party's over. Maybe you lot should consider archiving this page because it really is too long. We are all here for one purpose and one purpose only, to apply NPOV to the article; if Chronographos, MATIA, Theathenae and REX are going to play games, I don't see that happening. You

9970:

Genetics is not something I would care to discuss with a little boy (or, as the case may be, girl). Should you need to discuss such issues with me, you should first take a graduate course in Genetics, pass it successfully, ring my secretary, submit your credentials, wait to have them okayed by me,

8326:

Oh, Miskin, but what about the fact that the UN refers to this ethnic group as Macedonians? Yes, they are doing this out of convention... What about the Greek Helsinki Watch referring to this ethnic group as "ethnic Macedonians". Please, you can barely hide (actually you're not even trying to hide)

8290:

Also, conecting the antique Macedonians with the modern Macedonians is just partly mistaken. The mixing truth the centuries was quite intensive, especially because all of us here (except the Albanians) around are of Ortodox religion. Just to remind you, we are talking about 25 centuries ago, a time

8271:"Macedonian"? I can site you scientific sources that refer to them as "Western Bulgarians". Why? Because for anyone who has a basic knowledge of history, not only it's retarded to call those people Macedonians, but it's also insulting. It feels strange having to state the obvious every single time. 7770:

Chronographos, that is POV. Encyclopaedias should be neutral. It doesn't make any difference what I think about the Troubles in Northern Ireland or anything. What is true is what matters. You just revealed that your sole purpose for participating in this discussion is to make the article conform to

7402:

I could very easily hide that I am conected with the i_sterbinski nickname. But I didn't because there was nothing to hide. I do not regret letting someone else using my nickname because it already gave result. Check the next edition of Encarta. Maybe Knowledge does not care, but MS certainly cares

6882:

exist in Macedonia prior to Tito. This ethnic group recognised itself as "Macedonian Orthodox" and had broken off the Bulgarian nation mainly for religious reasons. Those people however who during WW2 declared to be "Macedonian Orthodox", were poor and uneducated people who didn't of mean that they

6363:

Macedonians". There is a considerable difference between saying that your origins are Slavic and between calling yourself a Macedonian Slav. It doesn't surprise me that Miskin can put something like this in the article - he has the intelligence of an average undernourished dog flea, but why do you

6128:

I just realised what you did! You succeeded in luring me away from our main point of discussion. A very well known tactic. We are talking about famous Macedonians, not what you believe about me or anybody else. I can't believe I fell for that, especially after I had told FlavrSavr that that is what

6114:: never have I seen so many spelling and syntax error in a text of yours. Coming from a person who claims to be studying law at an English University, this is rather alarming. If you are willing to talk about it, I am willing to listen and help (no fees involved). It won't be the first time I do 4920:

This sentence alone is sufficient to reveal to any reader of basic historical knowledge what kind of pseudo-academic, banano-scientific background you're coming from. The term "Macedonian historiography" is probably a brilliant branch of the Skopje or Sophia history department, and yet alien to any

4882:

the Macedonians will use - yet again - the opportunity to lay a claim to the Ancient Macedonians. But civilised solutions are impossible when discussions here degenerate every time into cheap mud throwing. Furtermore, with people like Istirbinski and Miskin, no solution can be reached for anything.

4498:

Of course. I think that the statements are taken out of the context (those are the very same politicans who fought for the recognition of the name Republic of Macedonia), but nevertheless, they should be mentioned. Maybe we should have a separate part for it. However, it is a fact that the majority

4148:

the terms "Macedonia" and "Macedonian/s" for your own country and people. You want to hijack and appropriate the terms. Every single instance, argument and link you provide, just like the above, corroborates this: "Say Macedonia", "Call me by my name". I cannot but thank you for it. It makes my

4055:

I'm glad you're doing the homework I'm giving you. I wasn't sure about the first publication of the book, but 1996 was the republished version of the one I've read. That proves that it's not an outdated old version like you'd like to believe. "Scientific racism" is a term that creates an artificial

3973:

I gave you an exampe: C. Coon - The races of Europe, a very popular anthropology textbook used in universities world wide. The book is not outdated at all, it was written in the '90s (96 if I'm not wrong) by an American prof. which yo u can look up for yourself. In fact almost no academic refers to

3644:

3. He has none or VERY little similarities to other neighboring peoples. If you claim to be Spanish but you speak a German dialect, you eat German food; you look German, and live close to Germany ... well its more like you’re a German on an identity crisis rather than a Spaniard. And if you are not

3636:

1. He speaks Spanish. And as Spanish we should recognize what the majority of already recognized Spanish people speak. You can’t come along talking German and start claiming that the other 40 million Spanish are speaking Portuguese and you are not really speaking German but Spanish that sounds abit

3622:

Instead of directly trying to give positive or negative verdict on the historic fact why not try to examine it in another way. Why not start by setting rules according to which any number of people may rightfully call themselves.... lets say Spanish for example. We could use Canadian or ... Finnish

3542:

ALL the Macedonian history (the one that the Macedonians, the one that Knowledge calls Macedonian Slavs) before the 6th century is given in Knowledge as Greek history. I am talking mostly about the Antient Macedonia. I do not claim that Macedonians (Macedonian Slavs in Knowledge) have the exclusive

3524:

I will try to give you an example that includes with Mexico. I beleive that you know that the Maya civilisation was invaded by the Spanish kingdom. Spanish were ruling Mexico for centuries and millions of Spanish people moved at Mexican teritory. Later, after the liberation war, Mexicans formed its

3517:

All this was simply erased from the database. I didn't erase anything when editing these pages, I support the other side and I do not want to hide their facts. But why Knowledge wants to hide our facts, which show that we are not a product of Tito's ambitions for the Aegean Sea. In Tito's time, the

3513:

I tried to edit some of the text few days ago, but everithing I wrote was deleted. And all I wrote were facts. Fact 1. Macedonians (or Macedonian Slavs, like ONLY Knowledge, Greece and Cyprus calls us) is the only nation of many living in the area concentrated inside the borders of the geographical

3299:

There is no need to claim the obvious. If you choose to live in denial that you are a mongrel population and aspire to the myth of ethnic purity with imaginary links to some ancient people, its your own loss. Please educate yourself and understand that there is no need to support my claim; the only

3265:

That made me laugh. A person from a Bulgarian-speaking nation with a history of 10 years and a foreign minority of 40%, calls shamelessly calls itself "Macedonian" and questions the ethnic purity of others?? How more comicotragical can this get?! :D I don't think this deserves a serious answer, you

2141:

I was certain that someone would bring up this example. And I am equally certain that you know the explanation: Celts (Britons) were pushed out of present-day France by invading Germanic tribes and confined themselves to Britanny or fled across the Channel. Since then, of course, Britain was also

2014:

Allow me to put this in your style - I'm not suprised of your reaction :-). Of course that the name of the people of a state is usually referred to by the name of the state. But not everybody in that state is referred to by that name - for instance, when someone mentiones Russians, it is clear that

12840:

Where did you get this shit? In your history book from primary school? If your bullshit was truth, do you think we would be so stupid to keep Kiril Peychinovich grave and propagate him as a saint, or would we celebrate Kuzman Shapkarev? It is truth that Bulgarian and Macedonian history was closely

12497:

The result of the Hellenization policy -which was to take a very oppressive turn during the Metaxas dictatorship (1936-1940)- was that Albanian Greeks, especially after the emergence of Albanian nationalism and of the Albanian state, felt that they had to ‘constantly prove their Greekness.’ Hence,

12345:

Damnit sometimes it's annoying to be right all the time. Almost every single of User:Macedonian's edits verify that he misinterprets history due to his imperfect knowledge. Basil II was an Emperor of a dynasty that was known as "Macedonian dynasty". The first Emperor was Basil I o "Makedonas" (the

12299:

When already started talking about Basil II and Samuil... There is an old Macedonian beleive that we mention a lot, especially in the last year of economic stagnation. The beleive is that the Macedonians are cursed in the past by their own king, because he could not beleive that another Macedonian

12255:

Ofcourse you think that there hasn't been Macedonian ethnicity prior to the 20 century. That's because your country and some other neighbours of Macedonia were struggling who to grab this piece of land first. So, the Macedonians were repressed. Noone in that repressing conditions could do anything

11776:

REX is the 4th person (3 of them face to face, 1 online) I met in the last year that have origin from Greece, but they describe their ethnicity as Albanian. All of their surnames were sounding Greek, but that was only because their names (same as the names of geographical locations in Greece) were

11563:

And you are right that even those encyclopedias sometimes make mistakes. But, it is mostly about history, in issues which have several interpretations. But, the Macedonian versus Macedonian Slav issue is present and nowdays. Fortunately for me and unfortunately for you, these enciclopedias are not

11544:

I find it rather amusing that in all your youthful naïveté you actually believe Britannica promotes such noble ideals as truth and neutrality and is therefore infallible. Believe it or not, like every other publication on the planet, Britannica also has an agenda. Just like Encarta, which uses the

11515:

On the other hand, the position that we are Slavs was supported by the ex-Yugoslav goverment and Tito, all in the name of the good relations with Greece and its supporters (Great Britain, Germany etc.). Everyone who was giving some different fact that Tito didn't like was sent to prison for a long

11416:

Of course you are in the midle. It is clear for you that the only name that the People X identify with is "Macedonian", but in the same time the existance of Macedonians would opose all the stupid lies that you propagate together with your fellow Bulgarians and Greeks. You had whole Macedonia just

11167:

So, Zocky, I hope that you'll consider the positions above seriously. I fear (I might be wrong) that you have misinterpreted me as a somewhat of a nationalist. Sure, I am a partisan in this debate, but that does not mean I don't have valid arguments and I cannot reason properly - I have warned you

10867:

So I suggest that if you people really care about how to chose the title most suitable for Knowledge, not for yourself, you do some research and thinking and come up with a convincing case for your side of the argument. Wasting everybody's time and nerves with childish bickering will only serve to

10855:

We are faced with an editorial question. This particular article has to follow the convention, just like all the others. Policies on which we should be able to base our decision are available. We should apply them as if not one of us has ever heard of Macedonia or Greece. If the policy isn't clear

10632:

want to use the name they use for themselves. If you don't stop POV pushing, then this dispute will never end. So I expect more mature behaviour from you, if POV information is on the page, then that will confound readers. We don't want that, do we? I don't intend to participate in this discussion

9447:

MATIA, I really believe that we have exhausted all the options - we have reach a point where we cannot reach a solution by ourselves. You are expecting me to invent another name for this ethnic group. I have already told you that I do not oppose that the article name should be Macedonians (ethnic

8038:

that it offers. In a more neutral perspective where reality is above convention, we have to choose a name that doesn't offend the numerous groups of people that also refer to themselves as macedonians and take offence when a ethnic group (historically alien to the name) is trying to monopolise it.

7750:

And let me remind you that non of us Macedonians oppose the Greeks living in the teritory of Macedonia to use the term Macedonian for themselves. But, the truth is that NON of you does. You all identify yourself as Greeks, no matter do you live in Kilkis or Athens. No international source has ever

7742:

That is a complete misleading. Kiro Gligorov never said something like that. He was respected president from all nations that live in Macedonia and has won many, many international prizes as such. He is a complete anti-nationalis. Again, you are giving senceless atack because of not having a valid

6861:

for example, he just can't accept that present Greek Macedonia had been prodominantly ethnically Greek. He sticks to his maps and unreliable sources and he ignores neutral and reliable ones such as the demographic cencus of the Ottoman Empire (by claiming that they had bad criteria of ethnicity).

6635:

emphasise the use of the term "Slav Macedonian" over "Slav", eventhough the former has also been used (you can change it to plain "Slav", that will make many Greeks happier). This paragraph aims to reveal the hidden truth which contradicts every Slavomacedonian nationalist's claims: That FYROM is

5539:

at all. I am furious. Yet there was a page, that I can't find to copy-paste the quote, that REX told to other users they should not attack him personally, in political way like (his example, probably citing WP policies) calling him NAZI. Today, REX called me for the 10th (I've lost the count) time

5104:

I don't care anymore what you think. All you do is lie. You accuse me of circular arguments. That is not true. To begin with there were no arguments at all. Above I made a request. But obviously MATIA and Chronographos like to make up straw man arguments even when all I made was a request. Anyway,

4951:

website. They did not participate in the 2004 national elections because of lack of funds. As they state in their website, the fact that the 2004 national and European elections were held close together prevented them from funding two consecutive campaigns adequately. Since the Greek electorate

4071:

Slavic crowd is as offensive as "Hellenic crowd" or "Germanic crowd". I've already posted various times instances where Macedonian-Slav politians refer to their nation as Slav-Macedonian, which automatically makes your claims a personal POV. It's not me who's "prescribing" what's offensive or not,

3676:

1.the language rule (I think very basic, all historians use language to say whether something is Egyptian or Hellenic) 2.the religion rule (again historically always been a source of national identification) 3.the exclusion rule (if an artifact has 100 similarities to Chinese culture and only 5 to

3652:

5. (And this is the most important rule I believe as it shows the real intentions of someone who wants to be called Spanish.) He, or she of course, must have as his only request that to be welcomed and included into the rest of the already recognized Spanish people. He must want only legal citizen

3549:

On the other hand, Knowledge says that 'In 2000 several teenagers threw smoke bombs at the conference of pro-Bulgarian organisation 'Radko' in Skopje causing panic and confusion among the delegates'. Yes, that is completely truth. But in 1000s of years, you find one incident that we caused against

3528:

And here is a comment about the claims of the Bulgarians, that the Macedonians are actually Bulgarians. If that is truth, I am going to kill myself. Bulgarians through the history made the worst for my nation. During the strugle of the Macedonian people for independence from the Turkish empire, at

3509:

From the text in Knowledge most of the people will conclude that Macedonian nation appeared during the World War 2 and Tito was the one who 'invented' us. The family of my wife (she is Mexican) read this and asked me is it truth. That was actually the first time I read what Knowledge says about my

3454:

So stop changing this number. If u claim that there isn't any official census for Macedonian Slavs in Greece, then anyone can claim the same thing not only about the rest groups of ppl in Greece, but on other countries that they use the same or a similar ways in order to count the ppl inside their

3006:

article: either change its title or work hard to include all components of Macedonian culture through the ages in it. Write about the prehistoric, Ancient Greek, Roman, Byzantine, Bulgarian, Ottoman and Yugoslav periods as well, attributing to each its proper weight and extent. Now get crackin',

2050:

Maybe an Albanian from your country would be more credible in making the claim you are making. I seem to recall there has been extensive ethnic strife in your country in recent years, and there have been UN/NATO peacekeepers there for that very reason, haven't they? Furthermore, the examples you

885:

Let me tell you few things about the passage that, perhaps, hasn't been addressed by anyone, as you said. What I'm going to write can be confirmed by millions of people who live in Macedonia (it may be just Northern Greece for you). The terms Macedonia, Macedonian etc were never outlawed. Northern

826:

Upon annexation of Macedonia's territory, each country began terrorist campaigns aimed at expelling or forcibly assimilating the indigenous Macedonian population. Greece, in particular, began an intense campaign in order to eradicate the existence of Macedonia through a horrific policy of cultural

12673:

The history books in the real world (that means outside FYROM) say that Cyril was a Greek, by his father, by his culture, and by his "nationality" (born and raised in Thessaloniki). There was no Slavic culture prior to him. He taught the Greek ways to the Slavs, i.e. Eastern Orthodox religion and

12638:

I'm lying about what exactly? Ethnologue and Encarta disagree with me on which part exactly? Can you be specific to any of your claims for a change? If it's about the Arvanites then I really don't give a shit. That's simply because I know the truth and you don't. You can stay in your ignorace and

12507:

Today, Arvanite ethnic identity is perceived by many members of the community as distinct from that of the other Greeks who have Greek as their mother tongue but as fully compatible with Greek national identity (likewise for many Vlachs and Macedonians). A similar phenomenon has helped weaken the

11772:

Matia would do or say anything to hide the shocking treatment that the nationalities have in Greece. As said many times before, Greece is far most criticised country on bases of human rights than any other European country, including whole Turkey and Russia. The nationalities there (including the

11624:

As I said, not for long. Those mistakes will be changed in the right next issue of Encarta, as announced by Microsoft representors in Macedonia. Not to mention that MS is only concerned about business, not about me or you, Matia. And Greece is much bigger market than Macedonia. But MS is US based

11374:

However, these are premature concerns. To even start a mediation process, we need the will the of the other side of the dispute to participate in it, otherwise, it would be a pointless procedure, because mediation, in its essence, cannot function with only one side. However, Matia, Chronographos,

9985:

Chronographos said: "Culture makes peoples". Do you maybe still beleive in many gods and beleive that Zevs lives on Olimp? Are you aware how different is your culture from the Helenistic? Of course, you were influenced by it (you live in the same area), but it is much, much different than it was.

9460:

It is interesting to note that you can count on your own fingers the number of people who are not a part of the mentioned etnic group (mistakenly reffered here as Macedonian Slavs) that, after beeing asked "What are you?" will answer "Macedonian". They will say they are Greek, Bulgarian, Albanian

8179:

You're talking very abstractly. If you want to question the reliability of my arguments or claims, then all you have to do is be specific and you'll get proof for every single one of them. The reason I didn't include proof earlier (such as photos of Slavomacedonian notes with the White Tower), is

8056:

to something else, because there are other non-Saudi arab groups in the region, isn't that right? I hope you get my point. You probably fall to the trap of romantically comparing the Slavomacedonian-Greek situation with the Irish-British conflict of NI. It's normal for someone who is not familiar

7641:

Well, I am well aware that personal attacks play a large role in their argumentation, however, I'm more concerned about attracting neutral editors, such as REX, here. I am confident that there is absolutely no reason for labeling this ethnic group "Macedonian Slav", and I mostly refer to the NPOV

7629:

FlavrSavr, you do not have to keep defending from their attacks. It is normal for them to use direct atacks when they can not find any fact that supports their possition. Any reasonable mind will understand that all words of theirs against you are simple and senceless try to make your name dirty.

7114:

Aren't the X-Files fictional? It really does seem like the Greek POV pushers here on Knowledge are trying to hijack all the ethnic/regional names. They are trying to say that the Macedonians are Greek, they are trying to say that Romania is a Greek name, they are trying to include the of slavonic

6872:

What makes you think I don't? What makes you think that I don't recognise the right of Macedonian Slavs to reclaim themselves as a separate nation from Bulgarians and Serbians? Was it the fact that I pointed out that up until VERY recently they were part of the Bulgarian nation? That doesn't deny

6821:

how would you write this paragraph? I know that there are 3 or 4 variations of the words Slavs in your language, but I cannot understand the non-english results I get from .mk domain. How would you describe the usage of that term and how would you explain (perhaps in this paragraph) why this term

6346:

It is clearly visible that in those examples the politicians in question assert that the present-day Macedonians (here called Macedonian Slavs) are descendants of Slavs who came to the Balkan peninsula in the 6th century and they have nothing to do with the ancient Macedonians. So if a Macedonian

5544:

accusations against me), eventhough a) I told him I've got nothing to do with such circles and I told him repeatedly that he offends me, b) there's not even one contribution I did that could support his claims (since I am not far-right or even right-wing) and c) he wouldn't like to be attacked in

5351:

about censa in the 80s. I think that you are trying to send me on a wild goose chase. You seem to be rather familiar with that website. Paste a quote here saying whatever it is that you are trying to prove, also provide a link to the page which contains the quote. I don't think you can. I suspect

4520:

For crying out loud FlavrSavr please don't play it dumb with me. It works with other people who don't really know what's going on bu it doesn't work with me, and it only underestimates my intelligence. I never said that FYROM politicians have reserved the term "Macedonian Slavs" to refer to their

3827:

I think you intentionally refusing to understand the situation. I'll siplify it for you: Neither "Macedonia" nor "Macedonians" is officially recognised by the UN. Internation organisations that refer to it as such, is only done for convenience. Until a name is officially established, wikipedia is

2997:

after World War II, you must understand that there are other claimants to that name: there are more numerous, and their historical and cultural roots in this area go back to the dawn of historical time. Therefore you should not use it without appropriate qualifiers. You will precictably respond

2893:

You are reacting in the most predictable way possible: purposefully equating how your state institutionally mistreats its citizens with how a Greek criminal once treated an alien. Well, no peacekeepers have been stationed in Greece to prevent civil war and protect minorities. Greece judiciously

1569:

or as detailed a description as more popular views. We should not attempt to represent a dispute as if a view held by only a small minority of people deserved as much attention as a majority view. That may be misleading as to the shape of the dispute. If we are to represent the dispute fairly, we

1153:

OK, I guess I was not quite clear. I am a member of people X, and I was expressing my POV about the Greek defiance of using the term "Macedonians". Considering the fact that Knowledge is becoming more and more cited as neutral and reliable source of information, their argument would be: "See, the

12783:

You come freshly indoctrinated - but here you'll either open your eyes or will disappear in a state of shame within two weeks back to the simple chatting websites where you can be vulgar, where you can insult people, where you can call Bulgarians "Tatars" and Greeks "FTROGians" and feel like the

11231:

We can try to have a discussion around the shouting. We can refactor the discussion daily if necessary. Our problem is, even if we go to mediation, arbitration, Jimbo or mother nature, it won't help us if the side which doesn't get their way don't accept it. So what we need is people who will be

10192:

died on the 26 April 1861. What relations could he have had with Hitler. Unless of course Hitler constructed a time machine and travelled back in time and told him what to say I see very little reason in your arguments. Of course, it is very easy to dismiss such theories by saying that they were

8294:

Let me just stress the fact that NOONE can have exclusivity over that part of the history. Several times before you were arguing that we want exclusivity over Macedon, but we always say that it is not truth. Actually, you are the one who want to get exclusivity over Macedon, which is quite clear

8110:

I am not planing to open a history discussion here, especially about some 2300 years ago... but why would someone call himself Macedonian if he was Greek? Simple answer... it is completely idiotic to think of that period of time in the terms of nations. Learn some history, the first nations were

8073:

the embargo from Greece, but in the Slavomacedonian culture it's still part of their nationalist myths. This is not about the human rights of a supressed, poor ethnic group like they're trying to make you believe, it's about the long-term expansionist policy of an unsatisfied ex-communist state.

6407:

I don't have too much time to write but I pretty much agree with u. From what I have read (and I have read enough on the matter), I can say that there was a regional Macedonian identity before the Balkan wars usually combined with a Bulgarian national one (but also with Greek and a Serbian one).

4946:

There is a Greek political party, the "Rainbow Party", which champions the cause of Macedonian Slavs in Greece and calls for the official recognition and protection of their language. Their best electoral showing so far was a little bit over 6,000 votes in the 2004 European Parliament elections

3412:

All ppl in Greece with Greek citizenship have Greek nationality, too. The biggest part of the countries of the world, prefer to count the ppl inside their countries according to nationality. But in Greece, as I mentioned, if u have a Greek citizenship then u have Greek nationality, too. So Greek

3247:

and everything is cristal clear. While very few Macedonians claim to be direct decendents of Alexander, it is improbable that any Greek has anything to do with the ancient Greeks (a common delusion among modern Hellens). In all likelyhood, the modern Macedonians and modern Greeks (Bulgarians and

2943:

Please respond to this question according to the NPOV policy. This is not an article about the Albanians in Macedonia (who are equal in all matters with Macedonians, check the facts). If you are unable to make difference between facts, conventions, and feelings, at least stop assuming things. --

1921:

Perhaps. I have tracked a nuance of unnecessary arrogance towards the "relatively poor and resource-lacking country" and the predictability of its inhabitants which is of no meaning to the main dispute. (I shouldn't have reacted in the first place, Knowledge is not a place for personal attacks).

657:

FlavrSavr, the Bulgarians are predominantly of Slavic stock - although they undoubtedly are mixed to a smaller or larger extent with Bulgars, Thracians/Getae, Vlachs, Uzes, Pechenegs, Kumans, etc. etc. etc. But the same is also valid for the Macedonian Slavs. If you are hinting at the Macedonian

11745:

is quite clear on this point, that the Arvanites of Northwestern Greece call themselves Shqiptar. MATIA is desperately trying to hide that by saying that the rest of the Arvanites don't like that name. Well, isn't that a novelty. He doesn't seem to care here that the primary ethnic group of the

10563:

MATIA, I have never called anyone a Nazi; why don't you try to find an example of that. Oh that's right you can't, because no one exists. And yet again, MATIA has been caught lying. That red colour his face has gone even matches that red sweater he is wearing. And Theathenae and Xronographo, #$

9913:

But, even them recently saw how wrong is the Greek position about the Macedonia question. Should I mention USA recognition of Macedonia's constitutional name? Or the recomendations from the parlaments of Germany, Italy and United Kingdom to their goverments to do the same? I don't see that your

9507:

Have you seen the movie "My big, fat Greek wedding"? All the world laughted at the way they claimed that everything is Greek... except the dinosaurs... just maybe, but it is possible they latter became Hellenized. :) The whole movie was made by a Greek woman who is quite realistic and obviously

9491:

Obviously MATIA and Theatheanae have some reason to fear Mediation. They are afraid that their Greek extremist vicious circles and racist remarks will be exposed. Given that Macedonia is a region primarilly inhabited by slavs (ethnic group X, Greek, Bulgarians) then the term Macedonian Slavs is

9366:

It is as clear as day that the majority view of the name of this ethnic group is "Macedonians". To avoid ambiguity, we can use Macedonians (ethnic group), Macedonians (nation) or a similar solution. Because I don't believe that you would agree on that, I suggest we should ask for Mediation, and

7779:

and have found out that some people disagree with the usage of the term Macedonians. I'm sure that the editors of Britannica, the Hutchinson encyclopaedia, Phillip's encyclopaedia etc knew that Greeks don't like the usage of the term Macedonians. That didn't stop them from using them, did it? I

7062:

Perhaps you don't care, but the Hellenes were called Romioi. The term Romioi and the term Rumania derives from Romania or Romanity, aka the Eastern Roman Empire. Maybe you know the latter as Byzantium. You may want to read Ritsos poem about Romiosini, or Palamas thesis about the name Romios, or

3788:

the name of the state as FYROM and most international organisations as FYR-Macedonia. There's no official recognition for its nationality, which by default is FYR Macedonian. Again, most people refer to the country as "Macedonia" and the people as "Macedonians" for the obvious convention of not

1049:

While I really appreciate your efforts and concern, I think you are missing the point. The fundamental problem is that, in itself, the use of the term "Macedonian Slavs" is a particular POV. Thus having an article with that name, dignifies and reinforces that particular POV, irrespective of its

485:

Good, then "it was out of my hands". The people voted. Though I noticed that in the time my vote was for Macedonian Slavs, the momentum was strongly for Macedonian Slavs---soon after I repealed, momentum shifted---or maybe I'm just being egocentric as usual. It stayed at Macedonian Slavs though

11884:

The claim that some people in Greece or Bulgaria identify their ethnicity as Macedonian, but are not conected to the People X (Macedonians, Macedonian Slavs, whatever you want to call them) is senceless bullshit. This is a clear lie invented as a reason for the nationalistic claims and denials

11260:

The members of the delegations should be fluent in English, tactful and knowledgeable, as this will help the delegation present its side of the argument better. Remember, if we want to come to an agreement, the debate will have to be academic and uninvolved - outpouring of personal or national

7992:

You are imagining things. I was not being uncivil and I did not claim any "original research", as you keep carping (or should I say "harping"?) about. If Britannica chooses to be confusing and ambiguous, that's their problem. It is not to be replicated blindly. Knowledge is not a glorified

7656:

I don't know if I am neutral on this question or not, however, it strikes me that this dispute has gone on long enough, and it really should be resolved, through some external means if internal discussion does not lead to a consensus. So, please, do mediation or anything else you can think of.

6159:

you hurredly corrected above. I suspect that you are not a MD like you claim, you seem to spend a lot of time on the Internet, every day. I thought MDs were busy people. But perhaps you are an unemployed one. Your profound interest in such subjects is as I have already said very interesting, I

3532:

At the end I have to ask for Knowledge NOT TO TAKE A SIDE IN THIS. I am not asking to remove the Greek and Bulgarian side of the story. But, why you ignore our claims, which are suported by many non-Greek and non-Bulgarian scientists and very largely through the web. There are just about 2-2.5

923:

call themselves Macedonians, and we have no role (or even any right) as Wikipedians to determine whether they are right or wrong to do so. The fact is that they do. Unfortunately this largely got lost in all the POV-pushing that went on in the poll; it's convinced me that running polls on such

11969:

meditation for a variety of reasons. I would be willing to participate if it was between people who were either directly interested or directly familiar with the topic, or just something that was not being repeated every 5 days in a row. What we have here is a blinded Mac-Slav nationalist, an

8762:

Ah, Theathenae's argument was a cheap mud-throwing ment to defocus the whole discussion. It is evident that there are people who are not directly involved, and they take part in this discussion. I will name several of them: REX, GrandfatherJoe, ChrisO, Zocky, Nat Krause... there is a general

6640:

a racial slur. Flavrsavr's main counter-argument against the use of "Macedonian Slavs" was that the word "Slavs" is a racial slur similar to "nigger" (his own example). Well this paragraph proves the opposite, and if you had read the discussion page more closely you would have realised it for

6092:

What indignation? I am quite comfortable with anyone's sexuality, Alexander's, yours, or any number of consenting adults. I could not care less about what you do in bed (or in any other place however unorthodox, such as a public bathroom for example). You could call Alexander a bisexual, a

4935:

According to my copy of the Hutchinson Educational Encyclopaedia there are Macedonian speakers in Greece and they number 100,000 - 200,000 est. I don't know if this qualifies as a credible source as you will have to accept my word for it, unless of course you have a copy of this encyclopaedia

2823:". I never suggested that Greece is the main problem for RoM. However, these investments are not done for altruistic reasons, but for financial interests. There were some cases where obvious illegal deals between Greek firms and Macedonian authorities took place. But that's another discusiion. 1754:

can be well explained to include the political sources and historical backdrop. But not here - all this belongs in the Macedonians articel. Please proceed and delete this article, but first do give some time (say 10 days?) for people to reassess what could be used in the Macedonians article.--

1441:

Macedonian language. By implication, all the other peoples and languages of Macedonia are an alien element, since they are not "Macedonian". Indeed, many Slavs get quite offended when a Greek calls himself a Macedonian: how could he be a Macedonian when he's not a "Macedonian"? This can reach

1127:

Ed Poor, this might be a POV, but I think that is precisely the point of using the "Macedonian Slavs" term, because obviously, the practical and rational arguments for not using Macedonians are quite weak. I was quite shocked when I found out that Knowledge (and its mirror sites) are the most

12484:

When the modern Greek state was formed, the Albanian-speaking population and its language were called Albanian, even if those Christian Albanians were considered an integral part of the Greek nation and had played a decisive role in the War of Independence between 1821-1828 (Bartholdy, 1993;

9437:

part is vandalized, to a lesser and to a greater extent, depending on the section. The 'Agreed facts' section is a bit spared but there are still some missing facts, such as the fact that all international organisations refer to People X as "Macedonians". The 'Options' section is an evident

8117:

Wanna talk about nationalism? Explain to me why the people in Greece that identify themselves as non-Greek and Macedonian or Albanian have no basic human rights of education and culture events on their own language? Why is their number only estimated by international organizations, but never

8106:

No one would like to change the name of Saudi Arabia because that is the name they have chosen. But, you want to change the name I use for myself. Do you really beleive I will change my identity to Macedonian Slav just because you don't like my real identity (Macedonian)? It kind of makes me

4576:

Is that so? There's also an official document from the '40s where the president of the USA is rejecting the existence of a "Macedonian nation" which only serves to promote Yugoslavian land-claims against Greece. I'm sure you're familiar with it. If you insist to pretend that the entire world

3144:

name FYROM, and the people are called for convenience "Macedonians". Both names are temporary, meaning that they could completely change in the near future. In that respect, wikipedia which is no supposed to settle with "convenience", has absolutely no reason to create confusion and national

2655:

But of course, there is your inadequate comparison of national names with textile brands - are you applying that the name "Macedonians" has a legal copyright owner? (the Greek government, perhaps?) Where's the document that grants that right? The answer is simple, of course - "Greeks are the

8270:

there had been an officially recognised name for FYROM. Since there is no official name then there's no obligation to use the POV one. Out of the people and official organisations who call Macedonian Slavs simply as Macedonians, how many do you honestly believe that they consider them to be

7293:

I think that the best way solve our little dispute here is to try the steps outlined in the dispute resolution process. I suggest (although I am not sure that a request for comment has been made in the past on an other page, Macedonia I think it was, but I'm not sure) that we should request

6790:

applies to matters pertaining this region, historically, culturally and otherwise. Claiming the terms without qualifications is tantamount to monopolizing the designation for yourselves. This would be sort of acceptable if you were the majority, but you are not. Furthermore your claim is

5462:) we can assume that this service did not undertake this census. Therefore the census mentioned in Ethnologue must have been a different census (possibly an unofficial one). So, we still have a case of Ethnologue's word against yours. Who do we believe? Hmm. I think I'll go with Ethnologue. 2363:. It is not a nameless state, it's a state with a disputed name. However, the name of the people X was never questioned oficially (except in Greece). And that is not a matter of indolence, there is a very profound reason for that: No one can deny the right of a nation to choose its own name. 6544:. I never slandered you as a right-wing as you say, I just said I detect right-wing politics (or something like that). I have never called YOU a right-wing. For all you know I could have been referring to someone else. Also, personal attacks are in reference to the person, not content (see 4549:

That's such a load of rubbish. So tell me what would happen if Greek Macedonia chose to break off the Greek state and create a Greek-speaking state of its own of Macedonian nationality. Why would they have to find a name which differentiates from plain "Macedonian", while they're obviously

2993:. You say that you find the current Wiki-designation "Macedonian Slavs" insulting? Why? Is it an insult to be a Slav? This designation distinguishes you from other Slavs, and from other Macedonians at the same time. Since you insist, for some reason, to retain the name given to you by 13157:

so Ethnologue is obviously not quoting a Greek census. Greek censi don't ask a question on ethnicity or language. MATIA obviously chooses to ignore that fact and has been revealing for quite some time that he hates me. Well, that's life I guess. Climbing the greasy pole is never easy :-)

7303:

live in the Bulgarian part of Macedonia. Anyway, we can refer to the encyclopaedias: Britannica, Hutchinson, Webster's World, Philip's; as well as the CIA World Factbook and the British Foreign and Commonwealth Office. All these sources refer to this ethnic group as Macedonians. Are they

2746:

human right, and not a mere question of nomenclature. Again, even if we accept that the name of the state should determine the name of the people, the temporary designation is FYRO Macedonia, not Macedonia (Slavic) or anything simillar.The proper question that you might ask yourself is:

870:

I quite agree that we shouldn't take sides. But if I may say so, there are really two issues here: what should Knowledge call "People X" and what should the article about that people be called? I don't think "People who call themselves Macedonians" would do as an article title... ;-) --

5842:

The only famous (some would say infamous) Macedonian Slav is I_Sterbinski, a.k.a. the "secret human rights organization". I can also think of ex-footballer Tony Savevski, who is well-known and popular in Greece. Of course the Macedonian Slavs in their desperate search for a history,

5819:

This is a serious proposal with a flavour of British humour. We need photographs of four prominent Macedonian Slavs to put at the head of the table. Sadly, I cannot think of any because this nationality came into the limelight quite recently and before that they were either considered

4781:, and if they insist on being called "Macedonians" plain, they monopolize a designation that does not belong to themselves alone and infringe upon the rights of the remaining Macedonians, who are after all the majority. I hope this clears the issue as to where I stand on the matter. 2697:

all of them referring to people X as Macedonians. Does that mean that the UN recognizes people X as Macedonians, thus separating that issue from the name of the state? Perhaps I'm imagining... As for my constant picking and choosing the playground, I always end up with an offer of a

6662:

ALL MACEDONIANS THINK THEY ARE SLAVIC, THE DIFFERENCE IS THAT SOME THINK THEY ARE DESCENDENTS OF BOTH SLAVS AND ANCIENT MACEDONIANS AND SOME THINK THEY ARE DESCENDENTS ONLY OF SLAVS. THE MACEDONIANS DO NOT THINK THEY ARE DESCENDENTS ONLY OF THE ANCIENT MACEDONIANS. GET THIS IN YOUR

6318:

We do not claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great … Greece is Macedonia’s second largest trading partner, and its number one investor. Instead of opting for war, we have chosen the mediation of the United Nations, with talks on the ambassadorial level under Mr. Vance and Mr.

3194:

11417:

some 60 year ago, during WW2, when you joined Hitler because he promised you the whole Macedonia for yourself. But, great number of Macedonians fighted you away. Why would you engage with Hitler and latter beeing runned away from Macedonia by the Macedonians if your lies are truth?

7746:

Giving those per-cent of yours have no meaning. It is a fact that 100% of the so called "Macedonian Slavs" call themselves "Macedonians". Also it is a fact that more than 80% of the sources (including the most reliable and trusted ones) use the name "Macedonians" to identify those

6350:

However, Miskin's slur is not corroborated in any way by those examples (and he'll have to look a loooooong time to find a Mac. politian who addresses the Macedonians as Macedonian Slavs). The only time "Slav Macedonian" is used, it is part of a negation in the meaning "we are not

6024:

surprised (speaking as a psychiatrist). My guess is that Stone did not include explicit scenes between Alexander and Hephaestion because of the strict rating system in US movie theaters and the resultant sales repercussions. Fortunately prudes are out of fashion here in Europe.

2068:, not blackmail, is the basis of healthy relationships. For example, consensus is the basis that allows the EU to function. Witness what happened after the French and Dutch referenda: consensus collapsed in the most undeniable way, and the EU is into a major crisis as a result. 1955:

welfare. If only we humans could debate on an empty stomach ... Now I will readily admit to being somewhat materialist myself, and often feel remorseful about my material wealth while kids in Africa starve. But that's a personal issue which is irrelevant to the matter discussed

8527:

name!" and "Don't you FYROM me!" were printed by a group of NGOs after the Council of Europe recently decided to refer to the Macedonian language as "Macedonian (Slavic)" and to Macedonian nationals as "persons from the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" in official documents.

8121:

You should know that the history of the Balkan is too mixed and confusing. It is even senceless to argue here about it, because we will never agree. But, the reality is something else. The reality that is clear as a tear: Macedonians is the name of the nation that you are talking

7353:

Why is that? Of course, because the Greek (and often Bulgarian) nationalism on Knowledge is very powerful, even more powerful than the NPOV policy. They both will like to ignore our nation and present it as artificial, all in favor of their wish to hide the truth of the Balkan

1983:(who number 500,000). Should the state in question be finally named "Ruritania" (a hypothetical example), its citizens will be referred to as Ruritanians. Of course this will not change its ethnic composition, which is 67% Slavic, 25% Albanian and ~4% Turkish, according to the 8585:

It is very unluckily the goverment of Macedonia to have a bigger influence than the Greek goverment. Britanica names us Macedonians because of one simple fact: that is the name of our national identity. Macedonian Slav is just artificial construction to satisfy the Greeks, but

11340:

I'll be gone for two weeks starting Sunday, so I can't help in short term. Somebody who genuinely doesn't care either way should do the gruntwork: draw up a timeline, ask people who might be of help to join in, contact the mediators, etc. I think that the info we collected at

5972:, I would very much appreciate it if you stop mentioning my mother. I never mention your mother, nor do I raise questions about her moral values. Again, we need pictures of four well known individuals who have made some contribution to the Republic of Macedonia, in any field. 11964:

Hey some people have lives and jobs you know and they can't be around every single time you kids want to play the adults. Anyway for the reasons that are obvious to the neutral and the wise (such as a group of people who have already decided on this article's name), I choose

11153:(a small minority, if I might add) of encyclopedias, international organisations, news media outlets etc. regards this ethnic group as "Macedonian Slavs". Using this term gives a distorted image of not only this article, but to all articles even mentioning this ethnic group. 8422:

A seach for the term "Macedonian slav" gives only 976 results, many of them as a part of Knowledge or as a part of some pro-Greek web site. Anyone who uses google will know how little 976 results is. It is simply very rarely used term. Why? Because no one identifies with it.

6836:

The term "Macedonian Slavs" has been used on several occasions by Macedonian Slav politicians as a self-identifying term and its use here is not intended to offend the people of this ethnic group. Occurencies of this term can be found in .mk domains, sometimes in historical

5935:

They are no good. We have no pictures of (the of questionable sexuality) Alexander the Great nor do we have pictures of his (supposed) father. Also, it would be impractical to use pictures of sportsmen, don't you think? We need people who have done something special for the

5738:

obviously can't read. We have already been into this above, how convenient that he didn't see it. Obviously there must have been some other (possibly non official) census. All I know is that Knowledge policy requires that these facts be used. If you like causing trouble (ie

12883:

Just one reminder to VMORO... you had many years to spread your propaganda, while anyone who wanted to defend the Macedonian history in ex Yugoslavia was or inprisoned or killed. Now, we are free to say the truth and it won't take a long before your lies will get revealed.

3056:, i mean the macedonian-slavs generally) is something obvious to all, not only by various edits in articles about Macedon, but also by the Knowledge version in your language (and in which you happen to be an administrator and have dove nothing to change it, so spare me the 2968:

observer what your country has been trying to do all these years. It has treated its large Albanian minority so atrociously that foreign troops had to be stationed there to protect them. Your constitution was unacceptably phrased, and you had to change it. Your flag was

2267:

Note that this does not mean an ethnic minority - but minority in global proportions. Also, Knowledge does not assume that the majority of the people holding a certain POV are telling the "truth", it simply describes a dispute. I found an excellent example how this is done

12244:

Oh, and as for the etymology of "Cyril", I never used it as an argument to back up his Greek ethnicity, you messaged me out of the blue claiming that "he didn't even have a Greek name", so I just replied by pointing out how you were at fault even in that slightest detail.

7731:

whose claim to the region's millennia-old linguistic and cultural heritage is the oldest and firmest. Still we Greeks are willing to share this designation with the minority. It is their endeavor to monopolize the designation for themselves that Greece will not accept.

6139:

You are apparently willing to avoid the subject; nevertheless I am ready to help you confront any issues you may be experiencing as ego-dystonic. I feel empathy towards migrants and the dire financial straits they often find themselves in, through no fault of their own.

13293:

BTW, haven't you heard about the latest report of Amnesty International about minorities rights in Greece? It's really, how should I say, juicy. Greece doesn't respect minorities rights (including Macedonians). I'm getting the picture that every organisation says this.

10800:

on this issue, as it speaks volumes about his credibility as an interlocutor. As recently as the 8 of September he "happened... to believe that these people should be called Macedonian Slavs rather than just Macedonians because the latter is very misleading, unlike the

1366:

Haha...special rights...Sorry, this seems to be overparanoid. And how these "special rights" manifest? You know, perhaps we should convince the UN to rename the northern Greek provinces of West, Central and East Macedonia into Former Roman provinces of South Macedonia.

13204:

To clear the confusion, a distinction of the following groups is needed: (For the economy of the conversation I will not consider (Slav) Macedonian expatriates currently living in Canada, Australia, USA etc. since this group is not at the center of the controversy.)

7961:

And yes, it is about time to get mediation on this. The Wikipedians should see how ridicolous is the Greek position and they should understand how easy a nationalistic group can even change the name of the whole nation here on Knowledge, so it will never happen again.

5447:

an official census figure. On the other hand, it doesn't say anything about the identification of these people. Did they think of themselves as Makedonski? as Bulgarian? as Slav-speaking Greek? Maybe even several of these things at the same time. Or none of them.

879:

Dear ChrisO, thank you for your answer on my not-so-well-thought-question, or perhaps my not so well stated question. I dont understand your answer 100% but I 'll sleep on it :) Please check my note on the top of this page about the differences between citizenship and

13034:

Ethnologue is not a scientific source and whoever thinks the opposite is an ignorant. Its linguistic classifications are often childish. So anyway what about the Greek minority in Albania REX? External figures reach 12% and the Albanian gonvernment claims only 1%. As

12178:

Again double standards. The Macedonians never named themselves anything else than "Macedonians", but you still prefer to call them with some other names. Maybe you should clear your ideas of life, find out what is your position and then get back and discuss about it.

13235:

Group 3: Slavic (Macedonian) speakers with Albanian, Bulgarian or Greek ethnic and national affiliations to their respective countries (i.e. consider themselves, ethnically and nationally, as Albanians, Bulgarians or Greeks). This group is not a point of controversy

944:

Exactly. For example Irish, can mean a citizen of Ireland or an Irishman by ethnicity. And nobody cares. Many Bulgarians call themselves Macedonian too, but they certainly don't mean an ethnic difference, but regional (They or their ancestors come from the region of

12907:

Just to express something that I said several times before... the modern nations got formed much latter than Samuil and Basil II. It is extreme stupidity to claim anything different than that, because those people had no feeling about ethnicity... only about power.

8180:

because I regard some things as common knowledge. You're repeating yourself about Britannica there, although I explained the difference between "Macedonian" as a nationality and "Macedonian Slav" as an ethnic group. For the record - the Irish and British policemen

5956:

If you won't have a picture of yourself, how about a picture of your mother? Her sexuality was not questionable, and I presume her repute was not either. A disclaimer could be added to that effect: "REX's mother, whose sexuality and repute are beyond reproach".

4788:

is trying to appropriate (confiscate would be a better word) the undoubted Bulgar character of the region in the Middle Ages in order to create a false historical past for themselves. While on the issue, I urge you to read an excellent book by Bulgarian historian

3434:

The most ppl left the country during the population exchange, wars end civil war. The rest had been assimilated. Keep in mind that Greeks outside Greece were apx 10 millions a few years ago and now days they are 2-3 millions. What happened to them? They had been

1870:

I am not surprised. It is likely, however, that as your brand new, relatively poor and resource-lacking country will (hopefully) be attempting to find its footing and place in international life and, above all, international institutions, your view will broaden.

1092:. I would hope that as good encyclopedia writers, we can discern what that point of view is and express it to our readers. Although it may be too early to predict, I will venture to say that this matter might require creation of another "definitions" article (like 10938:

Anyway, I certainly support your statement and I beleive that this "childish" behavious has to stop. Personal attacks on national and racial bases that some users keep using are ment to take our attention away from the unjustice made in this case. It won't work,

918:

Unfortunately, many of the arguments (on both sides) in the naming poll were blatantly POV - arguing that it's "right" or "wrong" to "allow" the "People X" to call themselves Macedonians. The one absolutely solid and indisputable fact in this matter is that they

5733:

is trolling. Do official elections in Greece include linguistic minorities. NO. That is because they are not recognised. Greece recognises only the Muslims of Thrace. So even if there was an official census in 1986 they wouldn't have asked that question anyway.

2063:

solution would be one that included both ethnic and geographic qualifiers. You were quick to bring out the ugly word "blackmail", which proves to me that my initial prompt about international relationships and institutions was valid. One should only hope that

6081:

nonesense and I hope you know that I do not take kindly to those who imply thing like that about me. Nevertheless, I do think that the fact that you are implying such things about me is your form of vindictive indignation to my insult to the famous Alexander.

12038:

will be joining in 2007 and bit by bit, the whole of the Balkans will end up being members with the same wealth per head of population. This ethnic group has the right to call itself whatever it pleases and given that most sources and most people use the name

7363:

Knowledge should urgently react and change this non-sence. It is about time to stand on the way of the Greek nationalism and remove all the assimilative elements on Knowledge. Macedonian Slav is NON-EXISTANT nation, because noone in the world identifies like

7797:

is a geographical region" don't you understand? The fact that no ethnic group living therein may monopolize the term for themselves is neither POV nor "original research" (!), it is common sense and derives directly from the geographical nature of the term

10388:

remember Theathenae. I am not hate filled, not as much as you anyway. I'm afraid that if I file a report it will be ignored, if I protest I will just look foolish, if I do nothing I essentially agree with you, I have had bad experience in that sector. That

8331:. Some sources considered them Southern Serbs, Slavophone Greeks, you name it. No one considers them as such, in modern times. Carleton Coon is dead about 20 years or more. IHis scientific racism is ridiculed. However, you seem very fond of his theories. -- 2340:

This should not be read to mean that subjective POVs should never be reflected in an article. If the term "Cabindan" is used in an article, it may well be worth mentioning that this usage is disputed by the Maputans and linking to an article describing the

12088:

That census was not undertaken by the Greek government. This is apparent because Greece does not include questions on ethnicity and language in its census. Therefore it is some other body's estimate and if Ethnologue can use it, then Knowledge can use it.

2740:

I think that you are again ignoring the fact that the name of the state is not legally, and formally connected with the name of the state. While the UN negotiations about the name of the state (a political institution) are formally legitimate (although my

2264:

Articles that compare views need not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more popular views. We should not attempt to represent a dispute as if a view held by only a small minority of people deserved as much attention as a majority

581:

I know what you mean. :-) But you're a subset of a wider people - the Greeks - rather than a distinct ethnic group which identifies itself by that name. Out of interest, do Macedonian Greeks consider themselves particularly different from other Greeks? --

456:

Sorry but i have an account in the greek wikipedia with more than 50 edits so please recall your claiments for socket-puppetry. My vote counts even if i have 3 months to edit in the greek wikipedia.You invited me to vote and so i did. Check my statistics.

12848:

I am going to stop this shit now... this discution has nothing to do with the topic of Macedonian versus Macedonian Slav. I sugest you do the same... we might latter continue this topic of the Samuils page, or many others that you use to spread your POV.

4364:

seems to think that the "Macedonian Slavs" label is inappropriate. However, you seem to know much about encyclopedia behaviour, so I've put up a RfC for the section. I'm positive that the neutrals, will, again, consider your position ridicilous. Regards,

2955:

Because the UN recognise your country under a temporary designation while talks last. If it is finally agreed that it's name will be "Ruritania", the UN might start calling you "Ruritanians". And frankly, I do not see any validity in your claim that an

12463:

Greece does", so maybe you'd have to update your definition of the term "nazi". Since you linked it then you might as well click on it and read what it says. Everything comes down to what I said before: You people hate just because you're told to do so.

11348:

I really don't know how to go about assembling the delegations. One idea - if there's enough interest - could be to ask people who wish to participate to volonteer, and then let the volonteers from each of the sides decide who will be in the delegation.

1922:

However, while the name of the country is in fact a matter of international dispute, the name of the people is not, and never was disputed by any relevant international institution (except of an unsuccesful episode in the Council of Europe) - please see

7311:

be called Macedonians and as this is the neutral way of phrasing it (all the encyclopaedias above are neutral) Knowledge policy requires that we use this NPOV way of phrasing it. Knowledge should be neutral, it should not be the way the Greeks want it!

2552:

Projecting your own paranoid sentiments under the label "fear-thee Skopjeans", ("Macedonia for the Macedonians") chants is not an objective factor in deciding whether people X should be labeled "Macedonian Slavs" in a Knowledge article. There is a real

2491:, and it clearly goes in the favour of the "Macedonians" option. Of course, there are plenty of disambiguating options, Macedonians (people), Macedonians (nation), Macedonians (ethnic group), Ethnic Macedonians and others which are reasonable form of a 6600:

You cannot provide examples of personal attacks can you? That is because they don't exist. If you provide one of my quotes which qualifies as a personal attack I will acknowledge it and retract it with a full apology. You can't though. Because you are

2520:

it was forcibly annexed by Greece in World War I." This country? Forcibly annexed? In other words, Greece's presence in Macedonia is illegitimate, and "Aegean" Macedonia is the part of "this" (your) country under Greek "occupation". "Macedonia for the

882:

Dear Ed. I believe we agree on the wikipedia principles. And I think that the point of perfection for any wiki, would be to provide accurate info on what each side says, info that will let the reader conclude on his own about it, just as you described

10193:

affiliated to Hitler, but you know, in this case those theories were not. I know you don't like that, you have been caught lying yet again, if I were you I d now be ashamed to even show my face never mind accuse others. Ill use the English motto now:

4352:

misconstrue my arguments as an attempt to perform a diagnosis online. That would be both highly inappropriate and potentially erroneous on my behalf. I merely strive to improve your encyclopedic education, and trust you will appreciate my endeavor)

2723:. Apparently, not only are the universally adopted human rights being violated, but even the laws of your own country are not being adhered to when it comes to Albanians. And you are under the impression that your problem is ... Greece ?? Greece is 8445:

For those who are unfamiliar with the prolonged history of this dispute: after years of edit wars, I attempted to break the deadlock earlier this year with a collaborative effort to gather opposing arguments and have a discussion about them. Look at

11387:

Where is the Bulgarian representative if I may ask? The question is a pull-of-war mostly between Greece and RoM, yet it concerns also Macedonian Bulgarians - who should also be given a voice in the mediation committee. Thus, I suggest the following

7594:

take precedence over regional identity (although undoubtedly important). People are (still) organized in nation-states, not region-states. People engage in war (sadly) because of different nationality, not because of different region they dwell in.

4468:

There were some attempts to label them as SlavoMacedonians in Australia, and they reacted the same way: Don't label me against my will. And again, I am not trying to deny that they actually said that, but Miskin's conclusions are way far fetched. --

888:

I believe, even with the wikis on Ancient Macedonia, Macedonia through Byzantium etc someone can understand that Macedonian culture played a major role on the Greek civilization as a whole, and the Macedonia's history is continual for 2300 years or

542:

I have to say that the original question wasn't very well thought out. "Macedonians" would have had to have been disambiguated at least five ways to capture all the meanings (geographic, ancient, religious, the people calling themselves that, etc).

4337:. Although it may outwardly appear to be "intelligent" decision-making, experiments have definitely shown it to be no more than a "spinal" reflex, without any "cerebral" component. You may be interested in looking this up, and also reading about 11923:

He is the only Bulgarian that included in the discusion, so if he is needed, he can participate. But, first I think he should recognize the present existance of a separate ethnic group Macedonians (or Macedonian Slavs, whatever the name) that

9692:

history of imagining things and "putting words" in someones mouth. Pitty for the real guy that is hidding behind that nick, though. He has to have very bad time when he wakes up and realises that the reality is very different than his dreams.

1829:

for a minute, the hard numbers say the Greek province of Macedonia incorporates the majority of land and the majority of people in the geographical region described as Macedonia. Furthermore, about 1/4 of the citizens of the Former Yugoslav

683:

the Bulgarians are predominantly of Slavic stock - although they undoubtedly are mixed to a smaller or larger extent with Bulgars, Thracians/Getae, Vlachs, Uzes, Pechenegs, Kumans, etc. etc. etc. But the same is also valid for the Macedonian

2770:

3. The article you were talking about, is missing some very relevant information - for example the 2001 crisis in which an entire new constitution was made providing the necessary mechanisms to improve the situation of Albanians in Rom. See

12844:

Just to remind you that Macedonians were actually the ones who kicked your Nazi ass out of Macedonia in the WW2. That was before Tito's rule over Yugoslavia. Why they didn't joined you in the fight against Tito, instead of fighting against

12595:, not from your imaginary Macedonian Slav nation. All newly acquired regions were considered as occupations, because politically that's what they were. There you go, you had it spoonfed. For any neutral person with 2 braincells to notice, 6077:. Your (and most Greeks') indignation to the suggestion that such a proninent member of the exhalted Greek nation, Alexander, be affiliated to such practices is, as I have already said, quite amusing. I myself find such practices a lot of 5264:

Whoever engages in trolling. The website provided by Chronographos does NOT say that there was no census in 1986, nor does your link. You are aware tha POV pushing is frowned upon. Anyway, even if you did agree to observe Knowledge policy

2322:

In this instance, therefore, using the term "Cabindans" does not conflict with the NPOV policy, as it would be an objective description of what the Cabindans call themselves. However, not using the term because of Maputan objections would

9786:

negative reports than any other European country (no matter in EU or not). It is interesting that through the time the number of reports is rising, which shows that the human rights in Greece are getting worse and worse every single day.

8327:

that you resent this ethnic group (if not, why referring to it as a "crowd"?!?). You keep claiming that the are significant scientific sources that consider this ethnic group as Western Bulgarians. That is true, but they are to be found,

2475:

B, to be left without limbs. Of course, this is a overdramatization and oversimplification of the situation, but it is basically the same with the Macedonian case - an attempt to deprive them of their right of self determination. No, not

7334:... how much time should we wait for a request for a Mediation? BTW, it is interesting to note that every non-Greek engaged in it,so far, sees no reason why we shouldn't refer to this ethnic group as Macedonians. Sounds familliar? :-) -- 7098:

and planted those damn stone inscriptions (to be found today by archaelogists) went back to Byzantium and forced the Roman Emperor to sign treaties as the Emperor of Romania or The Emperor of Hellenes. This is not POV ALERT, this is the

4776:

I disagree with you in this respect: everyone knows that Bulgarians are Slavs, but there is no other entity that calls itself Bulgarian, therefore the "Slav" term is redundant. Not so with the Macedonian Slavs: they are the minority in

4124:

Again, because some of the participants of this discussion seem to believe that I am somehow IMAGINING that Macedonians (out of vanity, or whatever) find the "Macedonian Slavs" label insulting, I would like to provide with you with this

2407:...That does not mean that the Russians are Estonians, no? Moreover, you must be aware that this argument excludes Greeks from the right of the term "Macedonians" - South Macedonia has a large Greek population which entered this country 10480:

No MATIA, the real question is why don't you accept the facts? Britannica refers to this people as Macedonians, they are NPOV. Why can't we do what they do? Because it conflicts with your POV? MATIA, you are the weakest link, goodbye!

6799:

pointed out. You have also failed to answer my point, namely that there is no reason whatsoever for an ethnic claim to take precedence over a regional one. After all a region can encompass several ethnicities, which in this case are

6749:

by a group of NGOs after the Council of Europe recently decided to refer to the Macedonian language as "Macedonian (Slavic)" and to Macedonian nationals as "persons from the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" in official documents.

4461:

4133:

7833:

It is simple: It is my basic humman right. But, reading all the reports of the human right organizations around the world about the human rights in Greece, it is more than clear that you actually have no idea what "basic human right"

7678:

I am Macedonian and Macedonian Slav has no meaning for me. How can Knowledge has a text about a nationality "Macedonian Slav" when noone identifies himself with that name? I appologise for my strong words, but that is lear non-sence.

11366:

As for getting volonteers, that would be a hard task. I generally agree that delegations should be formed, and approximately have the proposed structure, but I really don't think it is a good idea to stick formally to the 2+1 model,

10676:

When I first visited Knowledge, I thouth the Macedonian Slavs page is for the Macedonians some 10 centuries ago. It was a great suprise that it was describing my nationality, but saying that I am someone that I do not identify with.

4752:. The rest was just quotes where politicians say that the present-day Macedonians are Slavs. Well, Miskin, that's something that the whole world knows - except you, of course. You can find similar examples by Bulgarian politicians - 3460:

Keep in mind that I wont explain or at least not in such degree, why I changed smth else in this topic. For God's shake, for 1 minor change u made me write all the above, because u were (a few of you) insisting changing that number.

2998:

that what I say is POV. Well, so is what you say. And this is exactly what talk pages are for: discussion of various POV's. I think that the article title, as is, is as NPOV as it can be reasonably hoped for, and please note that

1493:

Ok, it seems this is becoming another endless POV debate. The Macedonian irredentist "threat" is not worth a serious consideration, yet many Greeks fear it as if it was a real possibility. We do not claim that we are the same as the

9261:

The "agreed facts" section was vandalized on several occassions (and it remained in its vandalized edition), although, the new 'agreed facts' should have been discussed thoroughly before adding them in the first place, with neutral

4204:

One side is "true" and the the other side is "personal nationalist myths" and everyone agrees, so the POV tag can come off? That doesn't strike this outsider as anything close to an NPOV resolution. I'm putting the POV tag back on.

3105:

We have to make sure the articles you refer to are translated in English and forwarded to the Wiki-powers-that-be. These guys profess and write the most outrageous lies in their own language, and yet all of a sudden they undergo a

13209:

Group 1: Slav Macedonians/Macedonians with ethnic and national affiliations to FYROM/ROM. (Again I will not consider other ethnicities, citizens of FYROM/ROM as the Albanians since they are not at the center of the confusion here)

11371:. For example, I am willing to be the only Macedonian there, while having two non-Balkanian editors in the delegation. There is another problem, as well - I am not sure whether the non-Balkanians would like to engage in Mediation. 9781:

I just want to ask anyone concerning the human rights (no matter in Greece, Albania or Macedonia) to use google (or any other search engine) and search reports about it. All of you will see clear as day that Greece had experienced

6791:

relatively new, counting less than a century at best and 14 years at worst, whereas the region's historical and cultural past is far, far older. You are corroborating this yourself: "Say Macedonia", "Macedonian journalists", etc,

6099:

ive (sic) research" statement. This is mundane, standard stuff taught in Medical School and in residency training. There is nothing esoteric about it. What does bother me is your paleo-communist characterization of sexuality as

5985:, but that's beside the point. You seem obsessed about people's sexuality, and as a psychiatrist I know this to be a hallmark of individuals whose own sexuality is a source of distress to them. In principle you cannot be sure of 5370: 1183:. The only people who do call them that, as far as I can see, are the Greeks, for purely POV reasons. And the only reason the article is where it is is because of that POV, which came out pretty strongly during the recent vote. -- 97: 12300:

can do so much harm to another Macedonian, he coursed his people not to have luck for 1000 years. If you know any history, you would know that Basil II had origin from the region of Macedonia and he blinded 14000 Samuils soldiers.

2369:

Should the state in question be finally named "Ruritania" (a hypothetical example), its citizens will be referred to as Ruritanians. Of course this will not change its ethnic composition, which is 67% Slavic, 25% Albanian and ~4%

2214:, a distinction is still made, however small. As for the Swiss example, it is not quite analogous to what we're discussing here. "Swiss" is not used as an ethnic identifier, and the people it describes belong to a single nation.-- 10781: 7589:

There is no such nationality as Slav, Macedonian Slav, or Slavomacedonians. There aren't any formal protection of the regional identity. So, not only I am not striving for the monopolization, but even if I do - national identity

5405:. Which is to be expected from an Albanian who was educated in Greece (on Greek taxpayer money). The second list above is a list of all official publications available by the Greek National Statistical Service. It details cens 13397:

And, what would you say about almost 500.000 people who live in USA, Australia, Canada or other far countries who left the Balkan far before Tito appeared and who consider themselves as ethnic Macedonians? Your stupidity has no

11047:

Stolen or not, the Aegean part of Macedonia is now Greek and obviously it will stay that way. We should think about today and tomorow and stop bothering about the past. The Balkan history is too complicated for us to resolve it

9971:

reserve an appointment, prepay a fee (I charge 200 euros per hour), and then I may spare you some of my time. The above notwithstanding, genes do not make peoples. Culture makes peoples. That's all you need to know for now.

8538:

Zocky, I'm glad that you're back. The poll was a bad idea from the start, and I have warned you about that. You're right to say that we shouldn't discuss whether this ethnic group has the right or not to be called Macedonians.

7901:

include the Macedonian "answers" of your position. So, the readers will decide who has better facts. What is a matter of fact, we are talking about my nationality, not yours. You are not the one whose identity is denied. I am.

6057:

and help people find the answers they have in themselves. I hope to have helped you in this matter, provided you are determined enough to let such issues (should they exist) "come out", so to speak. Of course you do not have

2670:, and comparing its basic principles to mere trade rules? What about some real arguments against my "nationalist" arguments instead of seamless personal attacks? You know what, perhaps you and Theatheanae should really see the 601:

Yes, there are some differences in terms of culture, tradition, local dialects etc., that would make some nice Knowledge articles. Also, the Macedonian Greeks are a subset of another wider population, that is, the Macedonians.

9956:. Therefore the modern region of Macedonia is in fact wholly inhabited by Slavs (with a few exceptions such as the Albanians) so the usage of the term Macedonian Slavs is inaccurate to refer to the primary ethnic group of the 9733:

If you don't recognize existance of nationalities in your country, that doesn mean they don't exist. But, that shows a lot about the treatment you are having towards them, no matter Macedonian, Turkish, Albanian or Bulgarian.

6727:

article. He always puts tons of sources to back up his arguments. I personally disagree that the formation of the Macedonian nation could have occured in only 3 decades of "de-bulgarization", but I'll put that off-topic now.

3953:

Their nationality is Macedonian, not Macedonian Slav. Miskin, it is hard to accept the fact that the UN won't change the name of the nationality, but face it - they don't have the slightest reason to do that. POV tag remains.

758:

It's more like: ТА ЭИЧЦmiddot;Цmiddot; РЦmiddot;ПУРоИКА МАКАТАМИЈА! :-). I'm glad to see that this discussion has cooled down a bit. Often one forgets that we are all just ordinary, normal people. Particularly on the Balkans.

13220:

Group 2: People that may share the same ethnic and/or national affiliations of the above group, living in Albania, Bulgaria and Greece thus safely calling them Slav Macedonians as in Group 1. This group is represented in the

9800:

No matter: the human rights standards Greece adheres to are not even remotely comparable to those of Albania or any other neighboring country. That's only one of the reasons why Albanians flee to Greece and not vice versa.

7155:

GREEK POV ALERT! There is no conclusive evidence to suggest that the Eastern Roman Empire (ie Byzantium) was called in its day Romania/Ρωμανία or anything similar. This is just Greek POV and this theory is just supported by

7076:

5065:

word is deemed by him to be going aroud in vicious circles. He didn't explain that claim though. How interesting? It sounds like propaganda. Trying to convince people that false facts are true. Everyone listen: We must obey

8043:

that is being brought up here lately. People who seriously bring this up as an argument, obviously don't have a realistic understanding of the situation. Why? Because the term "Macedonian Slavs" refers solely to the Slavic

5782:

Can anybody think of any famous Macedonian Slavs of whom we have pictures? On the article at the ethnic group table there is a blank space for pictures of prominenent members of the nation in question (like in the articles

476:

The rules required 60% to vote in favour of one option, so it wouldn't have made any difference which way you voted - with 60 votes in play, there would have needed to have been a minimum of 36 votes for any one option. --

9717:. I support this statement for the UK, Greece, and indeed every country that attracts foreigners. Obviously this is not a problem with countries, such as Albania, whose citizens flee with every given chance. Like you. 7349:

Also, Encarta will change this non-sence and in its next edition it will call us with our real name, Macedonians. Actually, it seems like Knowledge is the only encyclopedia which is forcing the use of the term "Macedonian

467:

for People X, the article might have made the move to Macedonians (came close to doing that, after considering that most organizations refer to them as Macedonians, and Knowledge should follow convention 99% of the time).

12022:, requiring you and other Greek romantic nationalists to come up with artificial names for the other people of the region for the sole purpose that you continue living the ancient dream. This is just like the case of the 8781:

As I said, it's good to see Albanian and Slav working together instead of killing each other like they were as recently as 2001. If the "Greeks" need be demonised as the common "enemy" they need to "fight" against, so be

8771:

policy would react the same way. I wouldn't pay much attention to Theathenae's current trend. Theathenae, if you have any arguments concerning this issue, bring them to the discussion. Knowledge is not an internet forum.

8569:). There is no reason whatsoever to not call this ethnic group Macedonians. If Britannica can do it, then Knowledge can do it. It is the NPOV way to go. Unless of course Britannica is influenced by the government of the 4158:

First of all, I used that argument as a proof that Macedonians of RoM find the Macedonian Slavs label insulting. Miskin and you think that they are stupid and brainwashed for thinking that way, but nevertheless, it is a

3789:

having to say FYR all the time. That doesn't mean that anybody recognises them really as Macedonians. And since the UN has given a temporary name, I don't even know why are we discussing this, it just means that it does

1820:

The situation is totally ridiculous. Obvious as it is that Knowledge cannot dictate international policy, it is equally obvious that polling does not define truth, regardless of the outcome. Leaving aside the issue of

159:"Ethnic majorisation" does indeed seem to be working in their favour - why did they even bother to break up Yugoslavia? - but they still won't reach the 60% required to change the name of the article, even temporarily.-- 9003:'s Albanian compatriots, of course, are the pure descendants of the Illyrians - or is it the Pelasgians? In fact, they are so pure they cannot bear to have the air they breathe contaminated by any other ethnic group in 7712:'s first President, a communist called Kiro Gligorov, cynically explained his rationale thus: "Why should I be a minority in your country when you can be a minority in mine?". Ring a bell? Remember how 6 out of the 9 7138:

It really does seem like the Greek POV pushers here on Knowledge are trying to hijack all the ethnic/regional names. They are trying to say that the Macedonians are Greek, they are trying to say that Romania is a Greek

3128:

Why if the UN, every other international institution, virtually every major media house, and other books of reference use "Macedonians" ("something") to refer to these people, Knowledge should use "something" else than

2940:

2748:

10769:

When naming things, you can only choose one option. The only unbiased way to do that is to choose a set of rules and follow them. NPOV in this case means "in line with the naming convention", not "everybody likes it".

8095:

Also, talking about people who call themselves Macedonians, but are actually of Greek nationality was never registered, at least not in a bigger form by any authority. That is all just a imagined fact that has no real

7209:

and that the term Macedonian Slavs is misleading as there are more than one slavic ethnic groups in the wider region of Macedonia. He wants us to accept his POV as binding. Gee, well that's not going to happen, is it?

961:. What strikes as very true is the old Serb saying "He is complaining like a Greek nder arrest" - not only are the Greek convictions misguided, but Greeks are rather unpleasent about it when engaged in a discussion. -- 11068:

OK, before we start again taking ethnic perspectives ("the Aegean part of Macedonia was stolen", "Macedonia - 100000 years of Greek history" etc.) I feel the need to again, explain my case. We are not here to discuss

12378:

Concerning the Byzantine sources about Macedonia, I would not even talk about them. Strangely, but the anti-Macedonian sources are always a product of someone who has origin from southern parts of Greece or far east

11996:

I pitty your closed mind. I know several Greeks and most of them are proud of themselves of beeing Greek (as it should be). But, they are also aware that the world did not started with them, as you beleive is truth.

11701:

approval from the proponents of the other POV. Theathenae, you reject the idea of mediation. IMO, your arguments are a bit unconvincing, but I cannot force you into mediation. So, lets see the opinion of the others:

9713:, the UK is not faultless in its observance of Human Rights: note the cold-blooded murder of Jean Menezes in the London Tube not too long ago. Regardless of that, I couldn't agree more with Tony Blair when he said: 3974:

them as "Macedonians", for the simple reason that they're not (what they call themselves is irrelevant). This is the policy wikipedia does and should follow, whether you want to accept it or not is a different story.

11359: 11342: 9399: 8455: 8447: 5457:

Well, given that the National Statistics Service of Greece does NOT ask a question on ethnicity and minority languages (because the Greek state does not recognise ethnic minorities, only one religious minority, the

12815:

are saying that they are Macedonians. Gee, your propaganda doesn't works there, or what? (maybe it is too far, or someday you'll mobilise and turn into action. Or already you were, but it doesn't works there...).

10245:

Gee, Δεαθήναι (Chronographos's sockpuppeteer) I guess that means that the Nazis influenced scientific opinion before they came into existence. That is the least intelligent statement I've heard from you (well, not

6907:

and this nation) how would one know which nation Macedonian Slavs refers to? Anyway, most credible sources call this nation Macedonians, apart from Greek POV there is no reason whatsoever to call them Macedonians.

5083:

You prove your lack of arguments with personal attacks. Is it the 8th time you slander me as right-wing and/or nazi? Despite the fact that I told you I have nothing to do with these? Despite the fact that there is

5658: 8695:

About the report... I am not going to comment it, I haven't even read it. I did my part of the job reporting what is happening on Knowledge. I deny that I posted more than 3 posts using the nickname i_sterbinski.

5420: 2632:. Greeks use "Macedonians" as a regional identifier, not an ethnic one, and referring to people X as "Macedonians" won't change anything for them (Macedonian Greeks). However labeling people X "Macedonian Slavs" 11931:

Othervise, it would be senceless he to be allowed to be included in deciding for an ethnic group that he even does not recognize, aldough it is reality. Simply, without this, we can not count on his neutrality.

8451: 3807:

refers to them as "Macedonian Slavs" nor, "FYR Macedonians". The only attempt to somehow impose this term in the Council of Europe, ended as a failure, and this institution still refers to them as "Macedonians"

216: 7278:

in Greece. Because nobody here is likely to know better than them and because there is no evidence to support to reverse, we will just have to use that figure regardless if the Greek extremists like it of not.

9591:

Note that anyone who reads these links above, won't fancy much your position, Theathenae. Your assimilative and ultra-nationalistic politics last for centuries and it is about time for the world to know about

1645:

You cannot deny that calling people X "Macedonians" will alienate the Greeks, making it a POV decision by definition. Not that you care, of course, as the Greeks are simply "wrong" and you are "right". As for

7674:

Even if we keep the history away, keeping my identity and choosing how to call myself is my basic human right. Any support to the Greek position on this issue is denying my basic human right and ignoring the

6174:

got off topic! OK, I can list some famous Macedonians (pick four of them), but I am not sure whether we can find images that are not subject of copyright. (Perhaps we can upload it under the fair use flag?)

6129:

he should look out for! Now to get back to the point, I am suggesting that we make a new table for the head of the article because I cannot find any pictures and you don not seem willing to help me find any!

1694: 1666:

suggested it a few short years ago. But you're right, this debate is endless, as Greeks will never recognise you as Macedonians and you will never stop calling yourselves that. Let's just agree to disagree.--

6665:. Until a statement which is logically true is found, the paragraph will be placed on the Talk page. I personally don't think there is need for such a paragraph at all - because it says nothing, but anyway. 6229: 1397:

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I didn't think that the (Slav) Macedonians had claimed that nobody else has the right to use that name? It seems to me - speaking as an outsider - that the Greek claim is

9151:

You only need your name to be mentioned as many times as posible, so it will make you feel important, right? Do you really think someone of us will waste time answering your senceless comments? If you have

7456:

Moreover, although the above sources actually constitute the common, popular usage of this term, the Google Test also confirms this conclusion. So, I really cannot impose common usage, to something that is

5442:

that it is an underestimate for various reasons: census-takers not canvassing completely; census fraud either in the field or in the central office; and fear of persecution (justified or not). However, it

5416: 4415:

As for the do not-find-offensive thing, do you want to give other statements by the same politicians where they are explicitely referring to the nationality as "Macedonian"? Here's one, from Kiro Gligorov:

13121:

The official Greek position explains all. What stupidity is to claim that some country is clean of minorities? Especially when that country is in the Balkan, where so many nations live in so little space.

11438:. Also, we need Serbian representatives, Swedish representatives, Japanese representatives, Nepalese representatives, Mexican representatives, and in a nutshell, representatives from every country in the 7115:

descent Macedonians in the same category as the Bulgarian Magedonians inder the POV name Macedonian Slavs. What next? They are going to claim that Japan is also a Greek name and derives from Ionia/Ιωνία?

6722:

There's nothing wrong with VMORO's logic, Miskin. Me and VMORO had some serious disagreements about Macedonian history, (and we still do), but that didn't stop us to find a rational NPOV solution for the

8698:

Just to remind you, Theathenae, I could very easily hide my identity on here, but I revealed my conection with the first couple of posts of i_sterbinski in the very first post of the nickname Macedonian.

8627:. That is why they have brainwashed everyone else (except the Greek extremists) into believing something. How curious :-)))))))))))). Do you know what always cracks me up? The deletion of that obviously 6502:

I have never made an actual personal attack against anyone (you will never find one because I have never directly called anybody anything, I have only implied things. That does not qualify as a personal

6072:

I would suggest that you stop implying things about me. Personally, I believe that given that you have engaged in such an extensive research on such matters rather interesting and raises questions about

5154:

I'm afraid that you will have to spell it out for me. You will have to provide links to specific Web pages which say that Ethnologue is lying. I shouldn't have to research to prove my own sources wrong.

3640:

2. He has the same religion as the majority of the already recognized Spanish people. Again as far as what the real Spanish religion is you can’t claim that yours is the real one like with the language.

3360:

Oh, well, it only took a single mention of translating the Macedonia-related articles from Македонски into English to silence y' all? I guess you are all busy translating, so I'll leave y'all to it ...

906:

Everyone who has contributed to this article (or discussed it here) is a person, except for that one funny looking guy in the corner who's really a bot! :-) But I agree with Chris; that would be a silly

12955:

This won't change the fact that noone identifies with this nationality (Macedonian slavs (Macedonians)). So, anything else than the internationally accepted name "Macedonian" is senceless and POV push.

12372:

The not existing of nations in that time is what I always was confirming. You can find at least 10 of my edits where I say that is senceless to talk about nationality before just some 4-5 centuries ago.

8652:

and alliance of Albanian and Slav on this talk page most touching. It means we may even enjoy a lasting peace in the region, which is Greece's overriding strategic objective - for her own interests, of

2423:... True, but in this case, "Macedonians" is used as both ethnic and regional identifier. "Slavic" is not an ethnic identifier, it's merely a large group of people speaking a Slavic language. Check the 13338:

Why the Serbs want Macedonia? What Serbian you can find in this pure Bulgarian land, which is since 6 century till today Bulgarian, despite of all vicissitude of the historical destiny.-Krste Misirkov

9730:

The murder of Jean Menezes was protested against by every UK citizen, no matter of nationality or race. Do you ever regreat or protested against the treatment that Greece has towards its nationalities?

9715:"Coming to Britain is not a right and even when people have come here staying here carries with it a duty," he said. "That duty is to share and support the values that sustain the British way of life." 4535:

So let me get the straight, you're actually implying that the lyrics of some rapper have the same factor of importance as the official declarations of a politician?!!? Boy, you really are desperate...

4300:

being provisionally referred to for all purposes within the United Nations as "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" pending settlement ofthe difference that has arisen over the name of the State;

1775:

is unsatisfactory and not in compliance with NPOV requirements, but it's clear that the community can't reach a consensus on this matter. I'm currently thinking about posssible ways forward. They will

10832:

The racism and nationalism that you expressed during the last few days are enough for centuries in the limbo (or even permanent place in hell). Not to mention the previous sins that you (might) have.

10670:

Is asking for my natural name (the one that the whole world uses) a POV push? Should I start asking you to change your name into "Theathenae the Racist" and to accuse you for POV pushing if you don't?

5172:

Jonathunder, I can confirm what you said about Ethnologue - but one should cross-check every source. REX, Ethnologue is the perfect source today? Should I remind you, your quote from few days before?

4801:

historical fiction, but it also captures the essence of the times, as it involves Anna's grandmother, Maria of Bulgaria, who held the whole of Ohrid as a fief (!) from her ancestor, the Tsar Samuel.

8892:) making such a complaint and in consideration of our considerable docket, I will refrain." That's hardly a ringing endorsement, is it? As for his latest comment, he rightly thinks we (that includes 2015:

by that he doesn't refer to Chechens, Ukrainians, Ossetians or whatever ethnic group lives in it. If you think that the large percentage of Albanians is a problem, then check out the demographics of

1378:

Macedonians is in and of itself a claim to special rights over Macedonia. It is a claim of autochthony. In an ideal world, the implicitly alien "non-Macedonians" would just get up and leave, right?--

205: 7613:). You also claimed (and you still do) that I somehow supported the Genetic research although I openly refused its conclusions before your "you are racist" label, and I repeated my position again - 4232:

Matia, please don't go there. My sole intention was to put the fact that some, um, scientists actually deny the Holocaust. Some claim that Croats are catolicized Serbs. As for your information, the

3413:

government prefers to count it's ppl according it's citizenship in order to emphasize that these ppl are foreigners (not Greek citizenship). The reasons that they want to emphasize that are obvious:

1514:

Macedonians. Calling RoM's majority Macedonians, won't change a thing for Greek speaking Macedonians, they will use "Macedonian" as a regional identity, not in terms of ethnicity, just as they have

3521:

Many things in Knowledge are very offensive for the nowdays Macedonians. Knowledge simply ignores us, gives us a new name and supports the theories of denial of our existance, culture and history.

9258:

Voting on ethnic lines on both sides - the poll didn't have mechanisms to stop partisan voting on both sides, and it didn't attract the necessary number of neutrals to give this poll a credibility

4740:

The only example given of Slav Macedonians was a quotation from "Toronto star" (and not by a Macedonian politician as you claim) and it was used only as a counter balance to Ancient Macedonians -

3666:

Lets not start talking about Macedonia and Slavs and Spartans and the Chicago Bulls just yet. Lets only agree that these are good rules for somebody to have the right to claim that he is Spanish.

11834:

I think that it is quite clear that MATIA is not acting out of good faith but to force his agenda on to us. Whe else would he not respond to FlavrSavr's request if he is in favour of mediation?

5666:

says that in 1986 there were 180,180 Macedonian speakers in Greece. Ethnologue is a credible source. Obviously, now we can't not use these figures. Ethnologue must be neutral. Unless of course

12267:, which, as we all see, continues today. I really don't know why, but it seems that the struggle too continues in the 21 century. And you call yourself develloped and democratic country. Blah. 11168:

before everybody else that the poll would be a disaster because of voting on ethnic lines. At the time, you thought that my fears were misplaced, but eventually, it appeared that I was right.

9848:

is not a charity organization and the funding of its policies is not "aid". It is the collective will of its citizens. Being an Albanian citizen, you would understandably not be cognizant of

6237: 6236:- opera singer. The baritone performed in over 550 operas in the past seventeen years and has played more than thirty-five leading roles. In February 2005 he was named UNESCO Artist for Peace. 5598:

runs out of aruments he makes personal attacks (he called me a troll. I haven't called him anything, EVER). His lies have been exposed, he is not giving the Greeks a good name at all! tut tut!

7897:

You are arguing for your own POV, not for the reality. The text for the Macedonians can include explanation of your own (and official Greek) POV, even the Bulgarian one. But, in same time it

12306:

It is beleived by many people there that that is the reason of our problems these days. Not that I beleive in it, I just wanted to present it here. By the way, the course ends in 2014th. :)

12286:'s mistreatment of Tsar Samuil's army (which in your imagination was Macedonian Slav). I'm sure his actions were breaking our modern laws of human right. You should seriously think about it 9641:. The only person here that is using a nationalistic and racistic ideas is you, Theathenae. Why else would you promote a change of the natural name of the nacionalitu of 2,5 million people? 7657:

Generally, I think a few people, neither Greek nor Slavic in origin, would easily arrive to a consensus on this question. It's the nationalistic feelings on both sides that cloud the issue.

167:

Perhaps, ChrisO, some of them are Albanian nationality and Macedonian citizenship. If I lived in UK and had the required credentials, I would have Greek nationality and British citizenship.

11891:

The Greeks and Bulgarians might tell you that they come from "Florina, Greece" or "Sandanski, Bulgaria", but will never say that they come from Macedonia (of not forced or asked to do so).

11683:

think that what the ethnic-group itself thinks it is a very important factor to be taken into consideration when determining what to call an ethnic-group in an encyclopaedia article. Check

3288:

Just use Google. Search for forums about the ancient Macedonians and Alexander the Great. Almost all Macedonian Slavs claim the same thing. That they are descendants of ancient Macedonians.

3280:"While very few Macedonians claim to be direct decendents of Alexander, it is improbable that any Greek has anything to do with the ancient Greeks (a common delusion among modern Hellens)." 9106:

Have you missed him so much that you cannot bear his absence? I'm sure he'll be back with a vengeance soon enough. Also, I am confused as to whether we are Slavs or sub-Saharan savages as

137:

article explicitly refers to the dominant ethnic group of the FYROM. Renaming it "Macedonian (nationality)" is unacceptable as it would exclude at least a third of the FYROM's citizenry.--

118:

They couldn't be "Albanian (nationality)" because they're not citizens of Albania. As I suggested above, the better solution would be to redirect "Macedonian (nationality)" to the article

12382:

Proclaiming the ideas that you read from your school book in Greece is senceless thing to do. Especially when you agree with me that the modern nations formed centuries after that period.

7360:

But, there are about 2 million people in the region and at least 700000 more around the world who feel different, who feel that they are Macedonian and will never accept any other naming.

7053:). Τα Ρουμανικά είναι Λατινογενής γλώσσα, τα Ελληνικά δεν είναι! Είναι σαν το ζήτημα FYROM και Macedonian Slavs, οι Έλληνες τα θέλουν όλα τα ονόματα δικά τους. Αδίκως βέβαια, ως συνήθως. 6755:

attempt to somehow officialize the Macedonian Slav term in an international organisation, and it ended up as a failure. Now, believe me, when more than 10% of a population actually sends

10434: 10155: 10046:

Now is even more clear about the sock puppet Chronographos. The exact same nationalistic and racist comments all the time. IF this was some newspaper, your racist ass would get so sued.

3715:

and use "ethnic Macedonians" as the default option in the text? All of the other modern people that you could describe as "Macedonians" are ethnic Greeks, ethnic Albanians, etc., etc. -

2433:

You were quick to bring out the ugly word "blackmail", which proves to me that my initial prompt about international relationships and institutions was valid. One should only hope that

11780:

And, just to remind you that anyone can choose the belonding to some ethnic group, based on how he feels like. A basic human right that noone can take away from me, REX or anyone else.

11398:

Delegation Y will support the name "Macedonian Slavs" and will include 2 people from Greece and 1 person from outside Balkans, all of whom are proponents of the name "Macedonian Slavs".

10894:

is obviously unwilling to cooperate. This is due to the fact he is afraid that his POV Greek extremist agenda will be exposed and he will have to accept Britannica's views or the NPOV.

10117:, that doesn't mean that I agree with him. I'm just demonstrating that his theory is another way to look at this matter and use the name Macedonians for the primary ethnic group of the 5576:

and I say that if X can make a personal attack against me then I can make one against him. It seems that your attempt to slander me failed and your multitude of lies have been exposed.

4756:

but this doesn't mean that we call ourselves Slav Bulgarians. The examples are bad and they do not prove the "thing" you dumped on the page in any way. So, sorry, but it is thrown out.

11993:

your empty head, only the Greeks never make mistakes and they are the best in the world. A tipical "My big, fat, Greek wedding" scene, another one that the whole world would laught at.

11598:, you will see nothing but praise for Britannica and nothing but critisism for Encarta. Hmmm! Interesting. Knowledge obviously prefers sources from Britannica than those from Encarta. 11242:

Delegation Y will support the name "Macedonian Slavs" and will include 2 people from Greece and 1 person from outside Balkans, all of whom are proponents of the name "Macedonian Slavs"

8249:

Err... no. This article is not about the name. It's about the people. Incidentally, for deciding how things are called, "what most people officially or unofficially call" something is

5377:

a woman of, let's say, ill-repute? I do not mean to insult you or that impeccable lady your mother, obviously, just point out the mendacity, and ultimate futility, of your sophistry.

4531:"Some prominent rappers have used "Niggers" as a self-identifying" term for their race, and therefore the use of Niggers within this article is not meant to be offensive to this race." 4360:

that moved the conversation in that talk page, because, apparently, he got tired of our bilateral antipathy. It was a matter of courtesy that I contiuned the conversation there. Also,

1714: 8085:

There is officially recognized name for the country as "Republic of Macedonia" by more than 110 nations (which is 2/3 of all the ones that have diplomatic relations with the country).

4144:

No one says you are imagining things. You are part and parcel of a propaganda offensive, and you carry out your part with the utmost awareness of what you are trying to achieve: to

11860:

see all Greece's minorities sent to Auschwitz than admit that Greece is now a multicultural society and has minorities with links to other countries. They are disrupting Knowledge.

3769:

The insult tag. Miskin, you are not here to prescribe what the reader should find offensive or not. If it was up to you, you don't find the "Slavic crowd" term offensive, as well. --

10655:

want to use the name they use for themselves." Which means, does it not, that you support the "Macedonian" POV over the Greek POV? Naturally, you may take sides if you so wish, but

9944:

Slavs. So the precious Ancient Greek Blood which the Modern Greeks cherish so much and believe it to be running through their veins as we speak, is in fact long gone; much like the

6679:, and grossly so. The majority of Macedonians are Greeks, more than 2 million of them. The remainder are Slavs, (1,300,000), Albanians (600,000) and some other far smaller groups. 4030:(perhaps there are even two) "contemporary" authors, that are claiming that Macedonians are Western Bulgarians. Well that is what Knowledge calls "insignificant minority view" which 2719:. If your country is finally named "Ruritania", there might be a change there. In the meantime I was saddened to read about the situation of the Albanian minority in your country 12493:

their inclusion in an Albanian-Vlach Macedonian state (Berard, 1987:292-333). The Albanians’ fear of an eventual assimilation by the Greeks led to the failure of the former effort.

11560:

Actually, even Knowledge uses this term (Macedonian Slavs) only because it allows everyone (including extreme nationalists and brain washed people) to edit it and have a vote here.

10365:. A hate-filled racist and homophobe, perhaps, and a tad too enthusiastic in your hatred given your young age, but not stupid. I am actually flattered that you would compare me to 8530:

but it is important to illustrate the fact that no international institution refers to this ethnic group as Macedonian Slavs, and the only attempt to do that was a complete fiasco.

3619:

This debate is trying to determine whether certain people should call themselves Macedonian or not. They are doing it already, and we here are trying to comment upon their choice.

11358:

Too bad that you're leaving for two weeks, now that there finally an initiative for Mediation. It is really hard to attract a neutral admin to this dispute. The info collected at

8401:

All right! I see that childish behaviour is quite common so I'll try to guide you. Can each party give a brief summary of what they want and any evidence they have to support it.

7447:

of them, except Greece, and Cyprus, and maybe Romania), news media outlets (BBC oficially apologized for using that term) say that the name of this ethnic group is Macedonians. --

5415:!) and it is obviously in Greek. You may run it, along with the first link, through Babelfish and get a reasonable idea of what it's about. I'll give you a euro if you do. BTW 13181:

Before embarking on a flight and further provocative edit summaries, I would kindly suggest to have a *careful study* at the following discussions (rich in citations) and links.

11395:

Delegation X will support the name "Macedonians" and will include 2 people from ((FY)RO)M and 1 person from outside Balkans, all of whom are proponents of the name "Macedonians".

5232:

arguments. Nor does the Website www.statistics.gr say that there was no census in 1986. So I guess that we will just have to write what Ethnologue says because Knowledge policy (

1951:

What you thought of as "arrogance" was merely a reminder of what I think the priorities of any state should be: the welfare of its citizens. Unfortunately, this primarily means

11239:

Delegation X will support the name "Macedonians" and will include 2 people from ((FY)RO)M and 1 person from outside Balkans, all of whom are proponents of the name "Macedonians"

10908:

Anyone willing to explain the word "cooperation" and the benefits from it to Theathenae? Maybe latter we should explain the word "respect", he might need it latter in his life.

9312:

Macedonians, Macedonians (ethnic group), Macedonians (nationality) or other properly disambiguated option is the proper name for the article and the use of this term in articles

8340:

Also, I want to hear your apology about your false accusations against me as a person. I leave to others to judge about your opinion on this ethnic group, the "Slavic crowd". --

5424: 3762:

scientific source refers to them as "Western Bulgarians". They did so, in the past. That is explained in the sections below, and stressing it on the first paragraph is meant to

3663:

I believe that if some one came up and met all these rules that the Spanish government would grant him citizenship straight away and welcome him into the country !!! Dont you ?

716:

Vergina with his English and his bombastic comments is scarcely the best source you can quote... As for the rest - it is the national consciousness that counts, not the origin.

11420:

To be honest, your ass belongs far away from this issue. Whatever is your interpretation of the history, the reality is that the Macedonians are reality and they are here NOW.

7802:. If you want to claim the NPOV moral high ground, you should propose how best the term "Macedonian" should be disambiguated when applied to the various peoples and states in 12734:

There is not a single medieval source (Byzantine, Arab, German, the Roman pope or Samuil's Empire itself), which refers to Samuil's Empire as "Macedonia", all of them call it

1036: 658:

fairy tale about "Tatarobugarite", I would recommend you to go to Bulgaria and see how Tatar they really are. It might have a beneficial effect on some of your misconceptions

13010:

Instead of including the population numbers, we could always merge them with the Bulgarian population statistics report. Since, it appears no one is allowing the image here.

9558:

I must say all this is very disturbing. Greece who fancies herself so much as European. Well, Greece has a loooooooooooooong way to go befor she matches the standards of the

8628: 7671:

to say that defending our own identity is a nationalistic action. I do not push the Greeks to change their name and identity. They are the ones who try to change my identity.

7561:. Suppose that the people of Maputa oppose the use of the term "Cabindan" as a self-identification by another ethnic group. In this instance, the Cabindans use the term in a 2295:. Suppose that the people of Maputa oppose the use of the term "Cabindan" as a self-identification by another ethnic group. In this instance, the Cabindans use the term in a 1338:

Pretty much! It's an issue of self-proclaimed moral and historical rights for the Greeks versus a self-proclaimed right of self-identification for the (Slav) Macedonians. --

11133:

policy would do, as well. Esentially, the both options - Macedonians and Macedonian Slavs, are POV, by default. Namely, the NPOV policy (in the Undue weight part) says that

8413:

opposing this, but despite their political and economical power (which is far higher than the power of Republic of Macedonia), everyone else is using the name "Macedonians".

4516:

As for the do not-find-offensive thing, do you want to give other statements by the same politicians where they are explicitely referring to the nationality as "Macedonian"?

3284:

2. I don't know what's going on inside FYR Macedonia, but I do know that almost all Macedonian Slavs in the net claim that are descendants of Macedons (Ancient Macedonians).

8701:

BTW, it does not suprise me that a self-concentrated user like you is happy to see his name appearing as many times posible, anywhere posible, even when beeing criticised.

4916:

there are two lines in Macedonian historiography right now, the one claims that the Macedonian Slavs are descendents of Slavs who intermingled with the Ancient Macedonians,

4239:, and don't find it a hostile place for them. Recently, a monument as a rememberance to the Holocaust was built in Skopje, and a Memorial center is being built, as well. -- 1838:

Wiki-stance is a potentially POV-stance. The solution to all this mess is a smartly designed disambiguation page, not endless polling on potentially POV-nuanced questions

11314:. While I do not intend to participate much in such procedures, I believe that it is vital that they are at least attempted. You can count me as a supporter in this case. 9940:

that has come my way. Apparently some scholars believe that the Modern Greeks are not product of continuous influences on the Ancient Greeks but that the Modern Greek are

3071:

do you imagine what congusion that would create to someone not familiar with History?-And i'm not including your old-fashioned, communist-style propaganda on the subject-

2856:

policy. I won't be able to participate in this discussion until the beginning of August (I'm going on a summer vacation to gain some tan and more evility, of course :)) --

2381:

I seem to recall there has been extensive ethnic strife in your country in recent years, and there have been UN/NATO peacekeepers there for that very reason, haven't they?

8692:

Call yourself whatever you want. I do not care. You are free to choose your nationality and its name, same as I am. And, I will repeat... I am Macedonian, like it or not.

8609:

possibility, lol. It has also influenced the other encyclopedias, and the United Nations to refer to them as "Macedonians". We are such a red propagandistic scum! :))) --

8142:, I totally sympathise with your views, but your arguments have very little credibility. They may be true, but they also are, for the purposes of verifiability, baseless 7565:

sense: that is what they call themselves. The Maputans oppose this because they believe that the Cabindans have no moral or historical right to use the term. They take a

7258:

is misleading because there are more than one Slavic-speaking ethnic groups in the wider region of Macedonia (the Bulgarians as well as the principal ethnic group of the

6518:

I'm not bluffing or threatening. My greatest problem with you is that you continually attack me and offend me. You will, also, be able to explain your unorthodox ways of

6335:

We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian.

5690: 4214: 3211:

We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian.

2299:

sense: that is what they call themselves. The Maputans oppose this because they believe that the Cabindans have no moral or historical right to use the term. They take a

2255:

We are entering the magic circle again? OK, let's analyze what arguments have been brought into attention (and if I may add - how contradictions appear in the same text)

724:

Very true, but I was trying to deconstruct Vergina's nonsense. However if national conciousness is all that counts, then there is no reason for "Macedonian Slavs". :-) --

9914:

positions have moral support and simphaty by anyone. The bitch called "politics" is the only allie you have. And we all know how away the politics can be from the truth

5109:

says that there are 180,180 speakers of Macedonian in Greece and because naturally they know better than Chronographos and MATIA I shall use that figure in the article.

3136:

The answer to this is pretty straight forward. It makes me wonder whether you don't see it on purpose or you cannot see it because you're blinded. The only fact here is

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Ah, the lad's youthful ignorance is enough to bring a gleeful tear to the eye. Greece a permanent member of the Security Council? Greece in the G8?! Along perhaps with

7171:

The Empire's native Greek name was Ῥωμανία Romanía or Χασιλεία Ῥωμαίων Basileía Romaíon, a direct translation of the Latin name of the Roman Empire, Imperium Romanorum.

4693:

I don't think Miskin is normal. It is expected to be nationalistic if you come from the Balkans, however, he goes to extremes, which are unacceptable by any standards.

4599:. One of them is my question whether the terms Slav or Slavic are offensive. You may want to check it and give your pov (I've read that Slava means glory for example). 2786:

4. Greek treatment of Albanians is even worse. In RoM there wasn't a case where an Albanian is killed for mere celebrating his national soccer team victory over Greece.

2756:

1. I think that does not qualify as an argument whether or not we should call peopleX "Macedonians". (wasn't that you who complained about using different playgrounds?)

13241:

Group 4 :( Slavic) Macedonian speakers of unspecified (or unknown) ethnic and/or national affiliations. In this category the Ethnologue estimations *may* come in play

9504:

Of course they are. That way all the other users will see how weak is all their politics towards their north neighboor and their desperate need of monopolizing things.

6958:

You mean you can't prove that you are right and that I (and a large part of the non-Greek POV pushing scholarly establishment) are wrong. Hmmm, interesting! All right

4402:? In my own experience, I know several people who don't have a problem with it, especially when used to distinguish themselves from the Macedonian Greeks and others.-- 3688:

Please note I copied the above in response request stating inadvertent blanking occured, I've not checked every dot, but it looks right to me, the request appeared on

3627:

self macedonian because if you do then other people that are not spanish might call themselves spanish ... and that would not be fair to the spaniards now would it ??

1530:

policy to end this debate. We are not here to debate the right of people X to call themselves "Macedonians", nor who were the "true Macedonians". Knowledge should not

1139:

Could you say more about this? I don't know what you're leading up to. Can you say something about what ought to be in the article, concerning the "name of people X"?

11345:

is a good start. It should be updated and expanded, maybe restructured. It can be used for reference in mediation, and also as evidence, if it comes to arbitration.

11051:

We should concentrate on the present and future. And, in present (and obviously in future too) the name of our nation/ethnicity is Macedonians, not Macedonian Slavs.

9492:

inaccurate. It cannot be used. Britannica ond the other sources say that this ethnic group is called Macedonians. It is NPOV regardless if the Greeks like it or not!

1744:

inappropriate for anyone who isn't Greek. That is the reason I see it as an objective description of people X that satisfies neither POV, and should not be deleted.--

11949: 11456:

the Albanian representative. As for the above proposal, I reject it on the grounds that you cannot attribute the name "Macedonian Slavs" to the "Greek POV": it is a

9889:-permanent member of the Security Council by the rest of the member-states of the United Nations. They obviously took a more positive view of the country than young 8937:. So, if all the ethic groups of the region Macedonia are Slavs, things can be broken up as follows: Bulgarians of Bulgaria, Greeks of Greece and Macedonians of the 8681:

I'm not quite human, I'm a sub-Saharan savage, remember? By the way, when is that "human rights" report being released, Igor? I can't wait to see my name in print.--

4842:

Why not? Free speech is the very foundation of democratic societies. The most important phrase ever uttered in the political evolution of humankind is the phrase "

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of the Tatars (or some other tribes form the Kavkaz region, surley not from Europe), who addopted the Slavic culture, language etc. and I really don't know what is

11888:

Actually, nowdays noone uses "Macedonian" to explain the region he comes from. On the question "What are you?", only the Macedonians will answer you "A Macedonian".

10138:. You can always report me, if you believe that I do what you, actually, do (aka disrupt the WP) and save me from the trouble and the hesitations of reporting you. 8005: 7978:

Chronographos, I find your uncivil behaviour appalling. If this is how you all have been behaving no wonder a consensus hasn't been reached yet. I suggest you read

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The point is that, VMORO respects the self-determination of one modern nation as "Macedonians", and that is encouraging. The logic behind it is perfectly balanced.

6500:

Empty threat (ie bluff)! The only reason you are not reporting me right now is because you have no evidence. My orthodox observance of Knowledge polcy ensures that

6277:

regime or anyone who fought during the war could be used. All we need is someone who was born in the area which is now the RoM. Remember, we need pictures of them.

11687:

out. Gee, I guess that this means that they will agree with the rest of us that this ethnic-group is called Macedonians. If not that means that they are espousing

8114:

And at last... do you really think that Macedonia (or whatever you call it) can invade Greece? Can you please give us some bigger non-sence to laugh a little more?

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Concerning Basil II, your claims are just one of the version of that part of the history, obviously the version that you read in your primary school history book.

7830:

I know for myself: Macedonian. I have no other identity to choose from. And even if I did, the shoice would be mine and you would not have any right to oppose it.

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Theathenae - you would send a bad signal if you refuse to participate in the efforts to put an end to this dispute. I think it will only damage your position. --

11117:

I didn't invent the table I have presented in the upper parts of this discussion. Actually, I have just copy pasted the SPECIFIC table which is available in the

10946: 10719: 10663: 8427: 7788: 7699: 11719: 10620:. I have read this entire talk page a few times and I still can't find any reason not to call them by the name they use for themselves apart for a few pathetic 10377: 10050: 9990: 9897: 9805: 9772: 9738: 8019: 7906: 7846: 7755: 7410: 7392: 7274:. The Greek extremists may not like that but Knowledge's purpose is not to appease them, but to spread the truth. Also, Ethnologue clearly states the number of 4243: 2231: 1730:. It is common for people X to denounce "Macedonian Slavs" as a Greek imposition reflecting the Greek POV. In fact, as I mentioned above, "Macedonian Slavs" is 1301:

Thanks for that clarification, Theathenae. It does rather raise the question of why we are using this term if neither people is using it much or at all. :-) --

10278:

Well MATIA, I've studied WWII as well. It was in my end of year exams three months ago. Aha, my knowledge is more recent, so we can assume that I know better.

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Agreed with the user above.I was going to start writing something relevant to your posts, but you seem perfectly able to discredit your opinions by yourself.--

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are of Albanian ethnicity. It is inevitable that, until a political solution agreed to by all interested countries and international institutions is reached,

12729:

I didn't believe there would come a time when I would say even a word in defence of Miskin but the appearance of the individual "Bomac" turns things around.

10162: 10103: 10084: 10039: 5646: 5633: 5624: 5027: 4667: 3114: 12912: 12599:'s edits is the solid evidence that the term "Macedonian" implies land-claims to Greece and that the article's name should stay fixed. Therefore land claims 12051: 11568: 11524: 11137:. Because we can accept only one of them (Macedonians or Macedonian Slavs) - the logical implementation of this policy would be that we should implement the 10681: 9918: 9791: 9645: 9599: 9160: 9039: 8801: 8705: 8672: 8188: 8174: 8078: 7724:

there? (Why should I be a Unionist minority in your country when you can be a Republican minority in mine?) I am sure you are well aware of the aftermath.

4545:

Also, I have provided you with a specific article in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights that nobody can deprive someone of his right to a nationality.

3011: 2948: 1930:, but Macedonian Slavs is not the neutral choice for it - Macedonians (people), Macedonians (nation) or similar disambiguating is the best solution, IMHO. -- 1763:

We have just had a poll that resulted in retaining the current name, so moving this article to "Macedonians" cannot happen until approved by another poll. --

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I'm glad you admit you're a racist. I on the other hand reject petty Judaeo-Christian "morality", and don't consider "the Albanians" to be racists, even if

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On some places Knowledge says that this 'Bulgarian part' of the history might be Macedonian, but that is very well hidden so it even can hardly be noticed.

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Part of the problem, in my view, is that some people want to use the encyclopedia to settle the matter. They want to say, "See? The encyclopedia calls them

13136: 12183: 11629: 9283: 9024: 8978: 8373: 7890: 7331: 6830: 6683: 6426: 6384: 4672:

And speaking of illiterate kids, let the record show as well that I totally disagree with Miskin's latest edit, which is short-sighted and nationalistic.

3506:

to take a neutral side. But, that is not the case. Knowledge is everything except neutral in this question. In the following lines I will explain you why.

2055:

it was forcibly annexed by the Soviet Union. I believe the Russians in Estonia are not even schooled in Russian. Your ethnic vs. regional argument is a

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important generators of this term on the net (the highest ranks on Google search). I might provoke Greek emotions with this, but this is simply, unfair. --

686:

Isn't that a reason why we should call people X, Macedonian Slavs, Bulgars, Thracians/Getae, Vlachs, Uzes, Pechenegs, Kumans, not only Macedonian Slavs? --

179: 12830:(with the mixing of Macedonian Slavs and the Antic Macedonians). BTW, noone of todays nations is not a direct descendent of some part of the Antic world. 11715:

MATIA, Chronographos and Miskin, you really should accept Mediation. If you don't that could be interpreted as bad faith and unwillingness to co-operate.

11512:

Skopje is only the capital of Republic of Macedonia. Using the term Skopjans only belongs to just 1/5 of the whole Macedonian population around the world.

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and rich oil resources... :] In the early '90 when FYROM obtained independence, the Slavomacedonian government issued notes displaying the White Tower of

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descendant of Alexander the Great and Samuil while keeping your eyes shut to the enormous gaps in the science fiction novel which you call your history.

12738:

to the extent that when the region of Macedonia was finally incorporated into the Byzantine empire in 1018, the Byzantines called their new province the

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Macedonian Slavs. On the hypothetical side, even if we did call these people Macedonian Slavs, what difference would that make to any ambitions that the

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2. Recommends to the General Assembly that the State whose application is contained in document S/25147 be admitted to membership in the United Nations,

2636:

change something for people X - they are deprived of their right to identify themselves as Macedonians, in ethnic terms. That right was given to them by

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economy is just a few years which Greece is still struggling to match. Well, if Greece does not mend her ways she will never be permanent member of the

9538:

I suggest that everyone reads the following (they are about Greek extremism on the poor Macedonian minority) scandalous human rights reports on Greece:

9101: 9056: 8831: 8335: 7775:, IF one can find certain facts in verifiable sources he or she is obliged to use them. We cannot come up with a theory on our own just because we have 7683: 6190: 5438:

The last Greek census which asked about language was in 1951. It found 41,000 Slav-speakers. It is unlikely that this is an overestimate, and one can

4765:

ethnic slur (like Flavrsavr was trying to convince us earlier). That's all. Please try to read and understand what you're removing, before removing it.

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Britannica, Ethnologue, Encarta and even the UN appear to disagree with you Miskin. Why do you think that is? I can answer that. It is because you are

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No international institution disputes that the name of the ethnic group - "Macedonians". You can check this by searching the sites of these instutions.

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I guess we could always follow your suggestion and divide the inhabitants of Macedonia into "Macedonians (people)" and "Macedonians (non-people)". ;)--

13406: 12249: 12171: 11784: 11549: 11505: 11472: 11115:(from which I took the Cabindans vs Maputans example). There is also a mechanistic, and objective method to determine those names (the table method). 10979: 10836: 10759: 10747: 10600: 10568: 10542: 10442: 10223: 9697: 9630: 9584: 9512: 9224: 9201: 9173: 9144: 9114: 8991: 8945: 8904: 8859: 8755: 8596: 8499: 7966: 7942: 7214: 6412: 6396: 4940: 4826: 4440:

epithet on a number of occasions, at the highest level. We shouldn't omit this from the article simply because it conflicts with your point of view.--

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time. Fortunately, Yugoslavia didn't last for long so we didn't forget our roots. The Slav conection is confirmed, but is definitly not the only one.

10121:. You can sneer at me if you want but that is not disrupting Knowledge. Your POV pushing dispite obvious lack of sources is disruption of Knowledge. 8921:

the Greeks are Slavs. It seems like the Ancient Greek Blood of which the distinct nation, the Modern Greeks are so proud is long gone; much like the

8776: 8635: 7357:

Even in the poll that was organized, it was too obvious that only the Greek and Bulgarian nationals deffend this artificial "Macedonian Slav" policy.

7338: 7262:). Why should Knowledge mislead so many inquisitive people? Just because the Greeks think that they have the right to play with the truth. There are 7187: 6247: 3365: 193:

So, to return to the subject of this article. If the title of this article needs to be dissambiguated, the keyword would also be "people", so either

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could take a cheap shot at the economic state of REX's and FlavrSavr's countries and tell them that "Macedonia is that country for which Albania is

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I refuse to be drawn into your spiteful rhetoric. The Ethnologue "census" data you quote is highly suspect of error: post WWII Greek censuses have

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international institution has recognised that state as "Macedonia" neither its people as "Macedonians". What happens is that the state is given the

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The bulk of the Slavs in Macedonia called themselves Bulgarians for centuries before the establishment of the Bulgarian Exarchate which took place

12449: 11164:, the use of Macedonians does not mean that we shouldn't mention or describe that there is a naming controversy considering the name of the group. 8462: 7880: 7661: 2640:

international treaties signed by Greece, too. No, I'm not considering consensus as an amputation, however searching consensus over things that are

2051:

provide are not at all germane to the issue at hand: Russia is a Federation, and Estonia has a large Russian population which entered this country

1783: 410: 12718: 12632: 12083: 11709: 11379: 11290: 9496: 8933:. So technically the terms Macedonian Slavs and Slavic crowd apply to the Greeks as well as to the Bulgarians and the primary ethnic group of the 8878:) for repeatedly insisting on referring to a language used by Greeks as "Albanian" (which I know to be insulting), but in the absence of input by 7119: 7085: 7057: 7038: 7029: 7006: 6995: 6986: 6975: 6966: 6937: 6912: 3809: 12698: 11877: 11811: 11616: 9156:

smart to say, I am begging you to do so. Othervise, get back in your nutshell and repeat after me: "Racism is Bad. Ultra-nationalism is bad...".

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It's not the quantity that counts but the quality. VMORO has concentrated all sources that suit his views and ignores all others. In the article

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Can't you upload a picture of yourself instead? You could add the explanation: "Until a famous Slavomacedonian is found, here is an Albnanian".

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trying to drum up votes from their own ethnic communities, which was ridiculous. Perhaps fortunately, the result was a draw. I do think that the

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47 votes were cast for this option. Of these, 16 were discounted as invalid (see below). The final tally of valid votes cast for this option was

229:

39 votes were cast for this option. Of these, 10 were discounted as invalid (see below). The final tally of valid votes cast for this option was

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You two seem to get along with each other too well. Why don't you meet up, get a room and turn each other on by badmouthing those dirty Greeks?

11093:

Zocky, the main point is that, in the months while you were absent of the English Knowledge, a new policy (or guideline) was developed, to deal

8245:

This article is not about "what most people officially or unofficially call the Slavomacedonians", it's about a name that best reflects reality.

7587:

Everyone has the right to a nationality. No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.

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6. He must also, accept Spanish history, culture, way of life and policies as are accepted by the majority of the already recognized Spaniards.

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only to refer to those three Northern Greek provinces' inhabitants - and to no one else. While the, uh, people X, insist on calling themselves

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and again in the 1860s that Stepan Verkovic explained that he called his collection of folk songs "Songs of the Macedonian Bulgarians" because

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Do you only have nationalistic comments in your pocket, Theathenae? I say pocket because I can not understant someones mind to be so closed...

7771:

your POV. You don't care what is true and what is not, you just want to see your POV on the article. Well Chronographos I've got news for you:

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Apple react? Yes, they live in a place, that is part of the geographical region called Macedonia, but can you understand our concerns about it?

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prepared to both (1) accept the result of the process and (2) help persuade their compatriots to accept the decision and go fight other wars.

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Flavrsavr it's true that you keep repeating yourself and give the image of a civilised extremist. Let's examine your claims for one more time:

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Your statement: "The term "Macedonian Slavs" has been used on several occasions by Macedonian Slav politicians as a self-identifying term" is

5799:). Are there any pictures availabe of Macedonian counterparts (could I use the picture of Alexander the Great, he was Macedonian wasn't he?). 4966: 4076: 3604: 3348: 2652:

apply to nomenclature), is not only a methaporical amputation, but as one Bosniak observer of this disputed put it - an intelectual aggresion.

2508:

For all your clichéd invocations of "human rights" and "NPOV" to support your nationalist arguments, your description of the incorporation of

1286:" is in fact a compromise between the two opposing POVs, as it objectively describes the core identity and origins of the people in question: 12093: 11122: 10174:

and some information are missing from that wiki. For example, few years after announcing this theory, Fallmerayer's opinion changed, partly.

9908:

Anyone knows how Greece got powerful position in the world. Do you want me to start mentioning reasons why many countries they supported you?

9442: 9343: 6206: 5563: 5520:

REX claimed to be (among others) Greek (26 July 2005). Later in the same talk page he changed his tune but in his user page he declares that

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has not yet sorted out his position. He just likes adding fuel to the flame because he likes to see people argue. I mean it is obvious that

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when in the English section and present themselves as innocent, starry-eyed virgins about to be raped. This blatant hypocrisy has to stop.

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Indeed you are Macedonians, Mr. "secret human rights organization" Sterbinski. In fact you are about 35% of the Macedonians. You are not

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name "Macedonian Slavs" - a fact you have conveniently ignored. At the end of the day, I see no reason to trust Britannica over Encarta.--

11256:

Once the matter is resolved, the delegations will help the rest of us enforce the decision and persuade their side to accept the decision.

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the state of FYROM nor for its nationality. Everbody refers to the country as "Macedonia" and its people as "Macedonians" for the obvious

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One person from Bulgaria - most likely me - from what I have seen and heard here, I stand pretty much midway between the two viewpoints.

11111: 10369:. I look up to him, you know, even if we don't always see eye to eye as you would have it. He busts my balls when I fail to think like a 9960:

because they are other Slavic peoples in the wider region of Macedonia such as the Greeks and the Bulgarians. Do tell me what you think.

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obligation to publicize those answers here. Your private life, including what may or may not happen in your bedroom etc, is sacrosanct.

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There were some attempts to label them as SlavoMacedonians in Australia, and they reacted the same way: Don't label me against my will.

6487:

on talk pages are all the evidence needed. The only reason I'm not reporting you right now, is to give you some time to think about it.

5589: 5549: 5141: 4979: 3266:

have demonstrated what a brainwashed extremist you are. What else do they tell you in school? That Greeks are lizard-like demons maybe?

13303: 13270:) and/or bilingual population in each country and are not representative of Group 2. The accuracy of the estimations is another issue. 11534:

Then we must notify Britannica immediatly and thell them thet they are wrong and that Theathenae is right because he knows everything.

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I meant that we could discuss some issues regarding this topic, and then, hopefully, after agreeing on them, include them somewhere in

5720: 4613:

The name dispute and the political negotiations are about the term Macedonia and all related terms (macedonian,macedon,macedonic etc).

4422: 4310: 2684:

sponsors negotiations that question its very charter and the nature of Human Rights. Let me put it mildly: you are imagining things.

102:

Are the Albanians of FYROM "Macedonian(nationality)" or "Albanian(nationality)? What do the slavs and the Albanians FYROMs maintain?

89: 13168: 10808: 7860:

Again and again people try to convince us why "people X" should be called "Macedonians" or "Macedonian Slavs". But deciding what they

6306:

That's who we are! We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia… Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century"

4585: 4554: 4539: 3290:

3. Do u claim that modern Greeks aren't descendants of ancient Greeks? If so, could u plz give us historical evidence supporting that?

3182:

That's who we are! We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia… Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century"

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Other critics dismiss Encarta as having neither the breadth, depth and authoritative contributors of other encyclopedias such as the

10273: 10183: 10147: 10029: 5869:. You can do better that that. We have no pictures of I Sterbinski or Noah of the Ark. We need four people of whom we have pictures. 3855:

to dispute the name of the nationality were some circles within the Council of Europe, and they didn't succeed in that. Now read the

3843:

I think that you are confusing the naming dispute of the state with the naming of the nationality. The naming of the nationality was

3583:"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians. That's who we are! We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia." 1984: 119: 81: 76: 64: 59: 12981: 12332:

If you know any history, you would know that Basil II had origin from the region of Macedonia and he blinded 14000 Samuils soldiers.

12018:

here is you. You are living in the past. Wake up; the Greeks are not the only ones who have the right and privilege to use the name

8195:

Maybe some insane person did those postcards. Why I never saw one? I spent my whole life living in the capital of Macedonia, Skopje.

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REX, the former is quite moderate and reasonable while the latter is very immature. This is just going on and on. It's ridiculous!

10691:

Theathenae, only one of the two possible wordings can be used. What our job here is, is to find out which one is more appropriate.

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have guns. They're just obliged by law to leave them in the trunk and use them only when needed. But you didn't know that did you?

7751:

registered that you identify yourself as Macedonian. But, all of them know as a fact that we all identify ourselves as Macedonian.

6696:

Thanks VMORO for copying it here. I believe this paragraph (perhaps with some changes) can be used to show the usage of that term.

5602: 5580: 5207:(as you said) and as a matter of fact I won't. You can either read it, and refrain from disrupting wikipedia, or you can check the 4603: 2624:

does not exclude the fact that the region of Macedonia gained that 2.5 million Greek majority only in the 20th century. Of course,

1923: 10415: 9251:

concerning the issue. The poll ended up as a draw. Moreover there were several serious errors in the conduct of the poll, namely:

9130:

seems to think that by stalling us an GrandfatherJoe wisely noted it will change any of the issues. He is sadly mistaken :-))))))

7605:

Miskin, what I found racist about your behaviour is you naming my ethnic group a crowd. Also, you've been quick to label me as a "

6053:

I implied nothing. It's not my job to come up with answers, or even suggest or imply them. My job is to come up with the proper

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for that matter, assume the liberty to quote and interpret life science papers, and use their nitwit interpretations to advance a

3689: 3223:

point of view. I think I just proved that wikipedia is obliged to use the term "Macedonian Slavs" for at least practical reasons.

2618:

the fact that population exchange between the Balkan States and the Ottoman Empire were governed by mutually signed treaties that

2590:

The fact that population exchange between the Balkan States and the Ottoman Empire were governed by mutually signed treaties that

1928:

that solution to all this mess is a smartly designed disambiguation page, not endless polling on potentially POV-nuanced questions

750:

Nobody on Knowledge. That's what my Macadamian friends call me. To which I reply: ЭИЧЦmiddot;оА РЦmiddot;ПУРоИКА МАКАТАМИЈА! : -->

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Tsar Samuil's headquarters were in Macedonia, and from there he conquered Bulgaria (which means he is NOT a Bulgarian, nor Greek)

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I don't think my fears are misplaced, again. I think that there is an urgent need for neutral admins to engage in this debate. --

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facts are missed, such as the fact that the only attempt to impose the Slav add-on on an international level ended as a disaster:

7997:

answered my substantive question though: namely how best to disambiguate the various groups forming the 4 million inhabitants of

6712: 4617: 2466:

adopted by all members of the UN, including Greece. People X have a nationality - they identify themselves and are identified as

13021:

clearly gives those figures. They know better than anyone here. Stop removing the number. Are you suggesting that Ethnologue is

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Obviously, mediation is what should happen as soon as possible. People should know about this problem and see how unfair it is.

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you will see a very interesting pattern. You talk the same, you always agree. Theathenae, you must think that we're all stupid.

10306: 10282: 10254: 10201: 10125: 9964: 9838: 9678: 9616: 9570: 8929:(h) in their language. Well, never mind. I'm sure that the other Slavic nations will welcome the Greeks into the brotherhood of 8797:

the f**k that has to do with the naming problem? Or maybe this is just another chance for you to see your name appearing again?

5608:

Ok then. Report me because I called you a troll, and I'll bring the evidence. The clock is ticking, aren't you hasty this time?

5282: 3744: 3733: 3067:

One of the purposes of Knowledge is to provide accurate infos to anyone. If we follow your demand and baptise you, as Tito did,

1611:"Too much attention to a minority view"? From the same person who rallied against "ethnic majorisation" a couple of weeks ago?-- 12926: 11201:

everybody's position is. No length of text is going to change anybody's mind and no neutral will bother to read all this text.

11006: 10872: 10824: 10624:

attempts to cloud reality. As far as I can tell not one of you seems to care what the NPOV is: the Greeks want to use the name

10035:

He is just enjoying being provocative. It's one of his many "questionable" qualities. Such traits usually run in the family.

8509:

included into the article, thanks to Greek vandalism of the "Why call People X Macedonian Slavs?" secton. There are also other

6645: 5585:

REX you are a troll. File a report against you and I'll bring the evidence. I'm sick and tired of all your lies and calumnies.

2720: 12524: 12303:

I hope any of the neutral (or even from the Greek or Bulgarian) users will visit Macedonia one day and check if this is truth.

11873:

any kind of deal about the name of the predominant ethnic group in RoM without hearing our opinion, you are very, very wrong.

11557:

term that is not accepted by the population of that ethnic group. So, the only source that you rely on will be gone very soon.

8793:

Strange that you see each other as enemy. It seems that you understand that there is a reason for a thing like that to happen.

6731:

The only "people with peculiar logic" here are guys who take 2-3 statements of individuals, take them out of the context, and

6368: 3589:

Right from the Horses mouth. You are Slavs, face it and get over it and stop feading us your Grandaddy's propaganda bullshit.

1885:

not sure whether that would suit Greek economic interests in RoM, nor its international image of "birthplace of democracy". --

551:, as this would have broken the disambiguation. Ethnic groups are often disambiguated by adding "(people)" after the name. So 11090:

reason why we shouldn't take this dispute to neutral Mediation? I mean, if you're sure of your arguments, what can you lose?

10997: 10962: 10898: 9533: 8515:

The creation of a "Macedonian" ethnicity is an old commintern (1923)plan in order to create territorial claims against Greece

4596: 3856: 3813: 3812:

This is done not for convinience, but for profound reasons (it's called "Self identification"), which are to be found in the

1406:("we want to call ourselves Macedonians too but we don't object to you calling yourselves that"). Of course, both claims are 10958:

GrandfatherJoe is patronising again I see. I'd comment on that, but given that he supports my NPOV views, I'll let it pass,

8590:

identifies his nationality as Macedonian Slav. Therefore, it is senceless to call these people anyway else than Macedonians.

8088:

But, even the ones who fail under the Greek presure and call the country FYROM, even them call its inhabitants Macedonians.

7838: 7614: 13394:

Not to mention that all these are parts of the Bulgarian archives. The neutral achives do not include any of this bullshit.

13228:

The official censi data are also used for each country. Greece does not have official census data in regards to that group.

9362:

It is not a policy proposal as well. In fact, it is a guideline. Nevertheless we always have the NPOV policy which states:

7837:

Greece is the country with most negative critics in Europe. Use a simple google search and you will see how truth is that:

4639: 4635:. (see 27.HLA Genes research, 35. And now for some REAL genetics research, 37. Caution:A genetic research and maybe more). 3614: 2395:... and how that "justifies" the naming of only one ethnic group in it Russians? Perhaps we should call them Russian Slavs? 175:

labeled "nationality" in English. According to European diplomatic agreements, at least, MATIA's "nationality" is British.

7806:. Knowledge's solution so far was to vote and opt for "Macedonian Slavs" whenever referring to the Slavic inhabitants of 5491: 4735: 2227:, I believe, as there is no space on a stamp to include the name of the country in all the languages used in Switzerland. 12062:

I've added the disputed tag regarding the imaginary 1986 census and the number of Macedonian Slavs in Greece. Apparently

10780:

There were some more comments here, but they weren't contributing anything to the progress of the debate. They're now at

10335: 9521: 9212:ΕΑΘΗΝΑΙ, which you would know if you were Greek as you erroneously claimed until very recently. In fact, Rexhep, you are 9094: 7145:

adj : relating to modern Greece or its inhabitants or its language n : the modern Greek vernacular (syn: Romaic, Demotic)

4663:

racist agenda of racial purity, or impurity. If only human biology were so easy as to be a playpen for illiterate kids.

2648:

and widely considered historical achievements of humanity and applied in every international institutions (and yes, they

339:"To discourage socket puppetry, only users with more than 50 edits before 00:00, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC) are eligible to vote." 265:"To discourage socket puppetry, only users with more than 50 edits before 00:00, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC) are eligible to vote." 9189:

he will change the issues. The tactics are well known. And also, what does your username Δεαθήναι mean. Mine comes from

2458:

That means that international law is based on some fundamental principles which apply to international institutions and

975:

Thank you for substantiating my comment: that was not in the spirit of Plato nor Socrates (but then how could it be?).--

968:

And I suppose you're a spitting image of Alexander the Great? Fuck off, you racist troll. "Unpleasent" enough for you?--

13153:

the Greek government doesn't even believe that the Macedonian minority exists, so official Greek statistics would say:

12057: 9766: 5299:, it is true that "Ethnologue is widely respected and cited in the international linguistics community". Nevertheless 3248:

Serbs as well) should be ethnically more similar than their similarity across time with any imagined ancestry of old.--

1619:

separate part dealing with the naming issue and its controversies - that is the proper, NPOV handling of this issue. --

1165:

I'd rather they said, "See, the neutral and reliable Knowledge points out that they call themselves Macedonian Slavs."

12841:

conected, mostly because of the represion we had by the Greeks... but claiming these stupidities is absolute nonsence.

11986:

This brainwashed babe here is full of nationalistic hate. Actually, it seems like only the nationality matters to him.

4325:

answered you on why you cannot use the plain adjective "Macedonian" when you refer to the Macedonian Slav minority of

2975: 2938:

No, Chronographos, you are reacting in the most predictable way possible. You are not responding to the key question:

2516:

makes your true sentiments abundantly clear: "South Macedonia has a large Greek population which entered this country

12656:

Rostislav to help him in his efforts against the massive germanisation of the Moravians, with teaching the Moravians

12581:

Sigh - I know eventually it all comes down to people's ignorance but this is just happening too fast. That's correct

11226: 11028:). So, I don't see anything bad about the name MACEDONIANS. Otherwise, why would the Greeks rebbel so much about it? 9765:'s own dirty linen, like the appalling treatment meted out to the Greek minority during the 2000 municipal elections: 9289: 7938:

Actually, all the problem is that Knowledge can be edited by anyone, even extreme nationalist as you, Chronographos.

7298:. However I you all think that it is clear enough that the ethnic group which the article refers to is indeed called 6735:

what the reader or the ethnic group in question, should, or shouldn't find offensive (bear in mind that Knowledge is

5889:

Ha ha, εϮ..θϮ..μίσαμε πάλι! I don't think that that would be practical. We need pictures of four famous Macedonians.

5768:

You'll have to do everything yourself. You'll also have to accept Ethnologue's word. You don't know beter than them!

5347:

to us that there was no census in 1986? If yes, καλώϬ; if no, then pipe down! I don't believe that that website says

1526:

As I mentioned above, this debate is endless, and there is no possibility for anyone to "win". Knowledge has a clear

1217:

There exists a culturally / ethnically / historically distinct group of people, living in the geographical region of

1050:

contents. This is a serious breakdown of NPOV policy and I think you may wish to consult with other admins on this.--

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is one of Greece's closet skeletons and the Greek government are desperatly thring to hide that fact :-))))))))))))

9595:

You don't like much human rights organizations, don't you Theathenae? Maybe that is why they don't like you either.

9364:

Articles that compare views need not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more popular views.

7433:

Articles that compare views need not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more popular views.

7399:

Again... when you have no fact that supports your nationalistic and assimilative position, you use senceless atacks.

2989:

are reduced to a pitiful recount of almost-unknown "cultural achievements" as pertaining to your people and country

1630:

an ethnic minority, is it not? An ethnic minority that you wish would just accede to the wishes of the "majority".--

1105:, so that's their true and proper name." (Sorry for the silly example, but that's the only way I know how to make a 13060:

Macedonian minority. Following are several examples of Greece’s constant abuse of the Macedonian minority’s rights.

12548:

Until the 1920th the Greek king published several documents where he describes the teritory Macedonia as occupied.

11327:

and the rest of them to give us their view and if they agree (hopefully), we may get this dispute over in time for

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pattern, they all find absolutely no reason for the Macedonian Slavs term, and anyone even a bit introduced to the

6858: 5777: 4652: 3749: 3353: 681:. As a matter of fact I'm going to a summer vacation in Bulgaria :-). I found a logical fallacy in your statement: 11083: 7825:. Actually, it seems that all your facts are based on the lie. Let me remind you that I (or any other Macedonian) 6295:“We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century AD ... we are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians" 6272:

because classical music is timeless, people are still talking about Maria Callas the Greek/American soprano. Also

5323:

census in any years other than 2001, 1991, 1981 etc. Just like the phonebook says that I am a physician: it does

3171:“We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century AD ... we are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians" 11286:

reasonable. I have only one question: what happens if one of the sides refuses to go to Mediation/Arbitration? --

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homosexual, a child molester, a necrophiliac or a pyromaniac for all I care. I am also puzzled about your "exten

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internationally disputed (for about 60 years). Read the UN resolution regarding the FYROM temporary designation.

2702:

playground. But then again, it's a really "boring" playground, so I'll better continue my dishonest existence. --

2405:

it was forcibly annexed by the Soviet Union. I believe the Russians in Estonia are not even schooled in Russian.

534:

article. If it would be deleted and replaced, what are the differences between this and vandalizing an article?

47: 17: 12516:

nice to Greece's ethnic minorities ας γελάσω. Well, it is known that fascists will do odd things in the name of

6321:" In reply to another question about the ethnic origin of the people of FYROM, Ambassador Achevska stated that " 5809:

Please let us all know, if this is the way you understand humour or if it's just your way of being provocative.

5391:)? Sources must be in English. I cannot understand that language, so I guess we must reject your source. Shame! 3197:" In reply to another question about the ethnic origin of the people of FYROM, Ambassador Achevska stated that " 2142:

invaded by Germanic tribes. The name "Great Britain" as a designation of a state was established only when the

693:

Suggest a better name, then. Preferably one not used by anybody else, to match how special and unique you are.--

11497:, however, the universally used Greek term, whether you like it or not. "Macedonian Slavs", on the other hand, 11118: 10621: 9952:(h) from their language. Anyway, I'm sure that the current Slavic nations will accept into their midst another 8566: 8147: 7979: 7772: 5266: 5233: 3706: 3597:

This claim is officially denied by Kiro Gligorov himself in his auto-biography book "Macedonia is all we have".

3167:

is an ethnic slur, I'll just direct them to the declarations of those who are representatives of their nation:

2667:? Where did I say, or even, insinuate that? What about your permanent circumventing of UN's official documents 2602:, and defends the Universal Declaration of Human Rights as if it applied to nomenclature. Hey, I want to make 1068: 12974: 11817:

have no right whatsoever to dismiss legitimate evidence as biased for no reason whatsoever. Until you observe

11795: 11250:

The delegations will prepare their cases and engage in the process of mediation. The rest of us can help them.

10993:? When he is dry again, I'm sure the two Greek extremist POV pushers that are in fact one user, will be back! 6962:, we'll all accept your name for this ethnic group because if we disagree with you you'll call us childish(!) 6631:

claim that FYROM politicians use the term "Slav" or "Slav Macedonian" in a regular basis. This paragraph does

6329:

On 24 February 1999, in an interview with the Ottawa Citizen, Gyordan Veselinov, FYROM's Ambassador to Canada:

5674:

feel that they know better than the professionals who compiled this document. That is unlikely. So naturally,

4249:

The Jews of Thessaloniki and elsewhere are also Macedonian Jews, and they would appear to disagree with you.--

3537: 3479: 3205:

On 24 February 1999, in an interview with the Ottawa Citizen, Gyordan Veselinov, FYROM's Ambassador to Canada:

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2. It belongs to the talk page of that article, unless, of course, you want to present people X as inherently

1658:); it is a compromise between two otherwise irreconcilable POVs and an objective description of what people X 802:

it. It's obviously very controversial, and my previous attempt to help settle this last year was unsuccessful.

13288: 11822: 10856:

enough, we can't solve that problem here, and we should concentrate on updating the policy, not on shouting.

10385: 6564: 6545: 6501: 5940:, someone who was involved in the establishment of the state perhaps. Someone who people would see and think 5303:. You may douse yourself with gasoline and set yourself on fire in protest, but that's all there is to it. 5125:: 2001, 1991, 1981, 1971, 1961, and 1951. I don't know what happened pre-1940. This can be verified at the 4590: 4333:. As a psychiatrist, I do have to point out to you that repetitive behavior is a cardinal characteristic of 13128: 8041:

Macedonian Slavs is not a good name because there are other Slavs in the region and there might be confusion

5402: 3154:

to "Former Yugoslavic Republic of Macedonia", but you can't have it both ways, you're just asking too much.

2715:

until the talks it sponsors conclude. Obviously it cannot use "Former Yugoslav Republicans ..."; it sounds

11607:

I've checked encarta today and it calls the country fyrom - but probably REX already knew that (I didn't).

11434:

What about the Albanian representatives? They have an interest in this too? There are a lot of them in the

9474: 9434: 9412: 9380: 9295: 8483: 6110:

sense" (sic). Surely you are not a prude, are you? What also puzzles me is your apparent indignation and

3930:(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality. 3649:

people (his community) has been at war since ... well since forever kind of makes his case hard to accept.

3497: 2594:

and questioned by no one is obviously something our friend is not comfortable with. He views consensus as

2453:(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality. 2132:), etc... Also, the Swiss don't seem to have a problem in that area. I'm sure there are other examples! -- 1795: 12774:"Macedonian dialect being the most important dialect of the Bulgarian language along with Upper-Bulgarian" 11945:

Are Chronographos, MATIA and Miskin going to accept mediation or not? It is taking them forever to reply.

4163:

that they find the term offensive. The statements of some politicians (who are taken out of the context),

3381:

to translate 4 or 5 half-page-long articles form your mother tongue into English? What's taking y'all so

2566:

Not paranoid at all, as Greece is more than capable of defending herself. I merely note your aggression.--

12798:, haven't you thought that maybe there isn't a single medieval source which refers to Samuil's Empire as 9325: 8362: 8254: 7247: 5281:

to observe Knowledge policy as well. He removed the true facts which you reject for no reason whatsoever

4608: 4223:, it is part of an epistle by Mr Nikolaos Martis, former minister of Macedonia-Thrace (Northern Greece). 3623:

for that matter. The point is that the rules must be the same for any "name" for any "group of peoples".

3060:), where you present yourselves as the descendants of macedonians, falsificate the etymology of the term 1826: 1722: 1499: 12724: 11520:"Macedonians". Maybe you will call those people thraitors, but they are only realistic... nothing else. 6552:. That accusation is entirely unjustified. Also, you should know that I don't appreciate wiki-stalking. 6392:

I think we agree, more or less VMORO, and I'm wondering what are the needed changes for that paragraph.

3518:

Yugoslav army was far superior in the region. If he wanted the Aegean Sea, he would get it very easily.

2146:

of the Crowns of England (which had absorbed the Principality of Wales) and Scotland was turned into an

1266:, and would in fact consider it a major compromise even to accept such a name. Most Greeks use the term 743:

Perhaps. Hey, and who referred to you as a Turk? (If you're talking about Alex Pater, he is Russian.) --

11578:

Because MORE English language encyclopaedias use the name Macedonians including but not limited to the

9248: 8472:. Naturally, the Greeks will resist it because their lies and circular arguments will then be exposed. 6627:

VMORO I'll try to explain what the purpose of this paragraph is for one last time. This paragraph does

5990:

to imply that the lady's sexuality was "questionable" or that she is indeed a lesbian, heavens forbid (

4195:, so please don't try to sweep them under the rug in order to satisfy your personal nationalist myths. 3563:

IDENTIFY THE MACEDONIANS AS SEPARATE NATION, MACEDONIANS. WIKIPEDIA IS NEUTRAL??? I DO NOT THINK SO!!!

1600:

It is clear that the very name "Macedonian Slavs" does give (in my opinion) even too much attention to

38: 11644: 11160:, a proper disambiguation term is needed - Macedonians (ethnic group), Macedonians (nationality) etc. 5832:

why don't you try helping us improve the article instead of criticising and being no help whatsoever.

4400:

the majority of this ethnic group finds the term "Macedonian Slavs" as an ethnic designation offensive

4191:

I think everyone would agree that all three of your arguments have been refuted. The edits I make are

4072:

it's the representatives of your nation. Or would you care to see them again? Just scroll further up.

3052:

The fact that you are constatly trying to connect yourselves with the ancient Macedonians (when i say

13222: 12752:. It was in 1770 that the first Balcanic dictionary issued in Moskopole called the dialect of Bitola 12201:. By the way, many of the world's names have greek etimology, which doesn't mean that they are Greek 12197:

of the name Cyril is Greek, but you will rarely (or, should I say never?) find a Greek person called

11955:

From that, you can see what kind of characters are they. It's simply: They don't want to co-operate!

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As for me striving for exclusivity of the term, that is ridicilous. I don't suggest that the current

7475: 5037:

seems to have the impression that he is funny. Ho ho! Ha ha! I think that we should surrender now to

2269: 11734: 8522: 6744: 5847:, are eager to claim various personalities such as Alexander, Tsar Samuel of Bulgaria, and possibly 4456: 4273: 4167:, and Miskin and you are not in the position to decide what they find offensive. As for me being, a 4128: 936:

Yes they call themselves Macedonians. But that also is how a large number of Greeks call themselves.

555:

would have probably been renamed "Macedonians (people)" - this might still happen in the future. --

12603:

exist, whether the Slavomacedonians are powerful to make them reality or not is a different story.

12162:. If you call it Solun, it doesn't mean that it was ever named that way by the city's inhabitants. 11273:

I think that Mediation is necessary. This dispute in never ever going to come to an end otherwise.

9197:

the obvious difference between us being of course that he is an Albanian nationalist and I am not.

3736:

are copy-paste from a website, irrelevant to this wiki, and misinterpret statistics for the region

3354: 1093: 13186: 9893:, wallowing in his own hatred and negativity beneath the depressing grey hue of the English sky.-- 8843:, but all I am doing is promoting NPOV while you are promoting Greek extremism. Your Swedish User 8417: 8383:

And why do you think that this case is going to be one of those exceptions. Because it suits you?

6035:

I have just noticed that just by mentioning that film and what it suggests seems to bring out the

5366: 4114:

I'm bothered by the whole statement and the whole attitude of yours. Not that you care, though. --

4034:

be mentioned, but not on the opening paragraph. Then again, there are authors that claim that the

673:

VMORO, I have no doubts that Bulgarians are predominatly Slavic, but Vergina was not referring to

11818: 11579: 8558: 8454:), which ended in a new deadlock (29:29). Maybe we should get new, neutral people to look at the 7874:

any argument about why either of the names is morally or historically right or wrong is misplaced

6903:

misleading, I mean if there are atleast two Slavic nations in the wider region of Macedonia (the

6004:

I wouldn't really call it an obsession, but rather a highlighting of certain questions raised in

5388: 5274: 5241: 2711:

I think I covered this with the "Ruritanian" hypothetical example above. The UN has to be using

2327:

conform with a NPOV, as it would defer to the subjective Maputan POV. The moral of the story is:

1902:

You are being unnecessarily defensive (or, should I say, aggresive). Again, I'm not surprised.

1089: 11171:

At this point, my greatest fear is that the neutral admins of this Knowledge (in general) have:

11002:

Dear master of sockpuppets Theathenae! I think that all your words are non-sense and worthless.

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So here's the situation. The attempts to solve this dispute until now have ended as a failure.

9140:

No, I need an Albanian to tell me whether I am a Slav or an African, so I can act accordingly.--

5629:

I don't care what he is. My problem is his actions, and in particular his calumnies against me.

2779:

as well. Of course there is plenty of work to be done for ethnic reconcillation, but I hope the

11684: 6422:

who have lately gotten Bulgarian citizenship? Is it 10%, more or less, and what's the trend?

6387:(also any update you might have on the Bulgarian citizenship affair would be most enlightening) 5058: 3766:

that a significant minority disputes that Macedonians are a real nation, which is not the case.

771: 306: 12756:. It was at the beginning of the 19th century that Kiril Peychinovich called his language the 10016:

said: Hellenes are those who take part in Greek education. So, if you have problems regarding

9714: 3711:

Although I know that no rational solution to this article will ever be found, why not call it

12478: 12218: 12137:

Thesalloniki was NOT a greek town then (which means St. Cyril is NOT and NEVER WILL BE Greek)

12112: 12043:

to refer to them, so should Knowledge. I don't think that you should be trying to force your

11856: 11747: 11742: 11435: 10118: 9957: 9670:

Hmm! I said that I was racist says Δεαθήναι. Where did that take place pray do tell. In your

9637:

Why would an Albanian racist fight against unjustice towards the Macedonian? Clearly because

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policy dealing with this matter, and practising it means this (I've pasted ChrisO's table):

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recognise them as Macedonians, at least not yet. Just deal with it and get on with your life.

3151: 2151: 1980: 1831: 12413:

And, have you ever mentioned yourself that maybe you are the one who is told false history?

11737:

he is trying to suppress the fact that the Arvanites of Northwestern Greece call themselves

7474:" is the self-identifying term of this ethnic group. There is a specific policy, namely the 6257:, I tink that using too many artists would be a mistake. I think that ideally it should be: 6155:

people's grammar and orthography. You make just as many mistakes as anyone else such as the

1402:("we're the only ones who should be called Macedonians") while the Macedonian Slav claim is 13150: 13049: 12804:

cared to be like that? That goes for the doctrina that Macedonians were calling themselves

12256:

related to something macedonian (language, self-identification). By the way, you know what

12044: 12015: 11907:

I think that it would be a good idea for VMORO to represent the Bulgarians. A conversation

10735:

doesn't seem to agree with him/her though. I wonder why? Oh yes, because it's his/her POV.

9552: 9547: 9542: 9508:

honest. Maybe some day Theathenae's daughter will become famous with some similar move. :)

8883: 8665:

we respect each other. At the end, we are all humans. Strangley, but that includes you too.

5915: 5908: 5573: 4822:

Well, risking Miskin's and FlavrSavr's wrath, what would you consider an appropriate name?

3719: 3244: 3003: 2982: 2964:

designation, and neither do 2.5 million Macedonian Greeks. It is more than obvious to any

1518:

used it. As for the "special rights", I don't quite understand that objection. Perhaps the

194: 13329: 12714:

Miskin's dirty mind has been revealed and his location within a closet has been verified!

8847:

has been banned for POV pushing and the same will happen to you now. Did you see , your

4978:. Having read those discussions too many times, I must remind to everyone interested that 4572:) in the UN is not standardized? It is standardized, and it's in general use for 60 years. 3403: 1510:

shouldn't call themselves Egyptians. In fact, the Greeks are the ones who claim to be the

8: 13267: 12978: 12748:, not in 1810 or in the 13th century. It was in 1346 that Stefan Dushan declared himself 12589:

was an occupied region. What you missing here is that it was an occupied region from the

12098: 12048: 11946: 11912: 11885:

towards the modern Macedonians (no matter do they come from the Greek or Bulgarian side).

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what they're called, except those directly involved and affected. By the way, I find the

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to see what we came up with. Unfortunately, I also called a somewhat premature poll (see

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reacted (implying things about me) shows that this is an issue sensitive to most Greeks.

5918: 5904: 5387:

That website is in some language I can't understand. Have you not read Knowledge policy (

4859: 4432:

the right? Politicians from your country certainly do call themselves "Macedonians", but

4022:

Wow, he writes 15 years after his death! And indeed, he is quite popular! I am sure that

2986: 1975:

The name of the people of a state is usually referred to by the name of the state. E.g.

1779:

involve the deletion of this article, but most likely its renaming to something else. --

1495: 1002: 422: 13198: 12409:

Macedonian people? I mean, what is it, does it have usettled conscience about something?

12211:

Right. I won't even bother to bring up counter-arguments for claims such ridiculous as "

11135:

we shouldn't give the minority view as much as detailed description as the majority view

9881:, or any other of the richest countries on earth? Alas, Greece may be too small to be a 9309:

Macedonian Slavs is the proper name for the article and the use of this term in articles

8170:

does or doesn't have? Britannica calls them Macedonians. They can't be wrong, can they?

7839:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=%2BHuman+%2Brights+%2BGreece+%2Breports

7545:‡ Disambiguation is required to distinguish between the multiple meanings of this term. 7254:

calling itself Mongolia because China also has a region called Mongolia? Using the term

7183:

historical knowledge. I was right to have never taken you seriously. See you later kid.

6507:

nor have I ever commited vandalism, unlike certain individuals who I do not care to name

6160:

suggest that you sort out any issues you have first and then comment on other people's.

5092:, and your continuous calumnies are more than offending, unjustified, personal attacks. 2973:, and you had to change it to a poorly designed imitation of the Japanese Naval Ensign: 1454:" as in the past, the new Macedonian Slav nationalism has redefined "Macedonia" to mean 13242: 13107: 13018: 12167: 12079: 11807: 11612: 10986: 10878: 10844: 10574: 10552: 10511: 10462: 10408: 10366: 10353: 10331: 10321: 10299: 10289: 10269: 10179: 10159: 10143: 10100: 10080: 10036: 10025: 9972: 9857: 9802: 9718: 9661: 9420: 9388: 9082: 8959: 8495: 8370: 8002: 7887: 7886:

I agree. I am arguing for clarity and disambiguation, not morality or righteousness.

7811: 7732: 7389: 6809: 6680: 6423: 6381: 6202: 6141: 6119: 6063: 6026: 5995: 5969: 5958: 5926: 5880: 5866: 5856: 5675: 5667: 5663: 5643: 5621: 5560: 5473: 5428: 5378: 5332: 5186: 5130: 5106: 5024: 4983: 4957: 4863: 4823: 4802: 4673: 4664: 4379: 4342: 4165:

does not change the fact the majority of the population of RoM finds the term offensive

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the Greek preference for what people X should be called (Greeks almost always call you

1451: 1410:

POV. The question is how we can steer between the two poles while maintaining NPOV. --

1279: 795: 12764:, it was in the 1860s that Kuzman Shapkarev wrote around 10 textbooks and grammars in 12652:

about Greek culture, language etc. He didn't know them. He was called by the Moravian

12115:. From there, he was leading the conquests towards Bulgaria and other regions. As for 11184:

the rest of world avoids entering in the negotiations of Balkan issues like the plague

10616:

should all note that various encyclopaedias of all shapes and sizes call these people

9856:

that cannot sustain itself and lives on charity, you are forgiven to think likewise.

6297:(Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe, February 26, 1992, p. 35). 5211:

website link that Chronographos gave you, and verify that no census was held in 1986.

3488:

Propagandistic & faulse material about Macedonian Slavs & ancient Macedonians.

3477:

Propagandistic & faulse material about Macedonian Slavs & ancient Macedonians.

3173:(Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe, February 26, 1992, p. 35). 2783:

tension between Macedonians and Albanians will end up in a shorter period as possible.

315:- has no editing history (apparently an anon claiming falsely to have a user account?) 12808:

and the other things. You may think about the legacy of your ,,right about everything

11179: 10317: 9548:

Greece: Inhuman refusal of entry and denaturalization of ethnic Macedonians in Greece

9234: 9107: 8143: 7050: 6563:

What is important that the personal attacks which you mention NEVER occured. Perhaps

6537: 6286: 6225: 6189:(also an Academy award nominee) - I warmly reccomend it to anyone in this discussion 6180: 5165:

Ethnologue is widely respected and cited in the international linguistics community.

4784:

While we may disagree on this, we may agree on other matters: for example on how the

4338: 4014: 3574: 3086:. As you see it's a compromise between two POVs and so, we are willing to accept it, 2606:

shirts and if Lacoste sue me, i'll slam them with the UN charter. That'll show 'em!

2147: 1243: 1169: 1143: 1117: 1009: 863: 815: 13317: 12973:

This dispute has been going on for too long, it's time it stopped. Have you see the

11501:

neutral, because it doesn't satisfy either side. That should be obvious to anyone.--

10849:

Nice to see some hours of silence around here. Let me get some things off my chest:

7609:", although, at that point I haven't made a slightest edit on the relevant article ( 6763:

Miskin, you are the one with peculiar logic, and I tell you for the millionth time:

5682:

will have to withdraw their request that we omit these figures (the far-right Greek

4416: 11852: 11755: 11730: 11688: 11063: 10390: 9335:

is a rather clear policy, but Mediation could also be helpful. So, is there anyone

9017: 8852: 8103:

the officially recognized % in order to suit you and your so called "facts" better.

7781: 7717: 7166: 6795:. This is totally unacceptable. You are attempting to impose common usage, like 6005: 5784: 5296: 5182: 5166: 3727: 1805: 1647: 1283: 1259: 1225: 841: 639: 618: 552: 544: 527: 511: 187: 134: 13373:

Britannica, the UN, the World Book etc would appear to disagree with you Vergina.

12485:

Bickford-Smith, 1993: 47; Embeirikos, 1994; Vakalopoulos, 1994:243-249). However,

11777:

changed/shaped into Greek names in order to hide the fact that they are not Greek.

8864:

Doesn't he? His precise words were "Reject, I might entertain a complaint against

8146:. There is no proof for such statements and in my opinion they seem to touch upon 7147: 2349:

The name of the people of a state is usually referred to by the name of the state.

515: 13403: 13133: 12990: 12957: 12909: 12885: 12850: 12596: 12586: 12582: 12553: 12386: 12307: 12180: 11998: 11933: 11892: 11844: 11781: 11676: 11626: 11565: 11546: 11521: 11502: 11469: 11421: 11324: 11052: 10990: 10976: 10943: 10909: 10891: 10882: 10833: 10817: 10805: 10756: 10724: 10716: 10678: 10660: 10597: 10539: 10439: 10374: 10232: 10220: 10047: 9987: 9915: 9894: 9788: 9769: 9735: 9694: 9642: 9627: 9596: 9581: 9509: 9462: 9354: 9221: 9182: 9166: 9157: 9141: 9127: 9111: 9045: 9036: 9021: 8975: 8901: 8879: 8828: 8798: 8783: 8752: 8720: 8702: 8682: 8669: 8654: 8593: 8424: 8298: 8226: 8200: 8123: 8058: 8016: 7963: 7939: 7903: 7843: 7752: 7680: 7633: 7407: 7374: 6210: 6185: 5922: 5203:

REX I gave you the link to a previous discussion regarding this article. I don't

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The correct answer to Vergina's question is that they would be dissambiguated as

160: 138: 13187:

http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Macedonian_Slavs/Archive#macedonian-slavs_in_Greece

11310:

dispute resolution is a bare necessity here. This dispute has been going on for

11235:

Therefore, I propose that we try to assemble 2 delegations for this mediation.

8557:

FlavrSavr, as I have told you these people think that they are above the rules (

8545:

policy, which is now official. I also suggest to take this dispute to Mediation.

5307:, you will have to search www.statistics.gr a little bit better. No, it does 3419:

Claims on the area of Macedonia and the history of Macedons by Macedonian Slavs

210: 46:

If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the

12968: 12591: 12027: 11706: 11650: 11376: 11287: 11215: 11191: 10091: 9559: 9478: 9449: 9439: 9368: 9340: 9194: 8930: 8773: 8610: 8562: 8548: 8367:

It is important to note that these are conventions, not rules written in stone.

8341: 8332: 8151: 7872:

used, following the principles of Knowledge's naming convention. To reiterate,

7643: 7618: 7596: 7572: 7462: 7448: 7335: 6818: 6796: 6779: 6769: 6269: 6254: 6244: 6233: 6194: 5536: 5517: 5270: 5237: 5054: 5050: 5016: 4987: 4975: 4628: 4504: 4469: 4419: 4395: 4375: 4366: 4357: 4322: 4307: 4259: 4240: 4236:

Jews in the Republic of Macedonia accept the constitutional name of the state:

4220: 4172: 4136: 4115: 4089: 4039: 3955: 3770: 3301: 3249: 2857: 2772: 2703: 2675: 2576: 2558: 2500: 2020: 1931: 1886: 1861: 1711: 1639: 1620: 1605: 1368: 1197: 1155: 1129: 1051: 976: 962: 808: 760: 744: 732: 725: 701: 687: 647: 638:

Vergina, I have learned to ignore you, but I've got a question for you: Since "

428: 183: 13063:

Wow, it seems like Greece has a whole batch of closet skeletons. Tut tut tut!

10673:

How big nonsence is to keep a name of nationality that no one identifies with.

8668:

You only have respect towards your own nationalistic mind. Sad story, though.

8099:

BTW, when you use %, at least try to be accurate. It is kind of boring you to

7793:

Oh, my, I am being admonished! How shall I ever survive this? What part of "

7002:Δεν μιλάω Ρωμαίικα, μιλάω Ελληνικά. Τα Ρουμανικά λέγονται Ρωμαίικα!!!!!!!!!!! 6660:. I know you are frequently delusional but understand once and for all times: 5224:, I'm afraid I cannot find anything on use at the link you pointed out except 1450:, or using "Macedonia" at all in a Greek context. Instead of laying claim to " 451: 13341: 13314:

Invitation from the central revolutionary commitee to all Bulgars in Skopje!

13103: 12648:

St. Cyril in any case is not greek and he didn't taught the Slavic people in

12163: 12075: 12023: 11848: 11803: 11726: 11680: 11608: 10548: 10531: 10507: 10458: 10265: 10175: 10139: 10076: 10021: 9953: 9822:Éire for an example who exploited its aid better than Greece and developed a 9416: 9384: 8955: 8869: 8491: 7104: 7068: 7012: 6827: 6801: 6778:

You never tire of repeating the same arguments over and over again, do you?

6709: 6697: 6584: 6533: 6523: 6488: 6458: 6445: 6437: 6393: 5829: 5810: 5757: 5735: 5730: 5726: 5717: 5679: 5671: 5630: 5609: 5595: 5586: 5569: 5546: 5449: 5255: 5221: 5212: 5190: 5173: 5145: 5093: 5067: 5034: 5012: 4996: 4854:. Of course they have no cultural or linguistic connection with the Ancient 4636: 4614: 4600: 4224: 4206: 4001: 3781: 3741: 3693: 3341: 3240: 3090: 2981:. Now you are trying to monopolise the "Macedonia" designation: witness the 1663: 1463: 937: 894: 603: 567: 535: 288: 282: 168: 98:

Are the Albanians of FYROM "Macedonian(nationality) or Albanian(nationality)?

12826:. Macedonians are maybe not direct descendents of Alex. the Great, but they 3851:, and don't try to impose your own interpretations on it. The only ones who 2534:

Are people X referred to as Macedonian Slavs by international institutions?

1604:, and the entire discourse about people X, is, at start, a distorted one. -- 1262:." Not entirely true, as relatively few Greeks use the one-word designation 13036: 12155: 10784:. If you would like to continue that discussion, please do it on that page. 10535: 9870: 9823: 9818: 8066: 8053: 6982:

That's right. I proved that you have no sources to support your arguments.

6724: 6708:

Why the insertion of the paragraph is prescriptive and its removal is not?

5045:

and say that there are no ethnic minorities in Greece. That Greece is 100%

4794: 4656: 2945: 2693:

I must have an astounding imagination then - it seems like it is affecting

2016: 1699: 1443: 1331: 1240: 1166: 1140: 1114: 1060: 1042: 1006: 860: 812: 646:", and Bulgars are not Slavs, how come this justifies the "Slav" add-on? -- 392: 380: 344: 300: 12989:

I agree. Many, many discutions here are not even close to the real topic.

11020:. By the way, the stolen Aegean part of Macedonia by Greece is now only a 9982:

Just dial 141-I-Lost-my-mind, you will get Chronographos on a direct line.

9562:

and her indifferent parliament passes the Greek equivalent to the British

6448:

choses to ignore that. That helps him in his agenda of being provocative!

5011:

bring it up again then? It was conclusively answered and laid to rest by

4835:

Oooh, the matter is too explosive, so I think I'd rather not breach it...

3002:. If you want to appear objective, do something about the aforementioned 2421:

solution would be one that included both ethnic and geographic qualifiers.

954: 13040: 12705: 12640: 12604: 12531: 12517: 12464: 12427: 12351: 12287: 12246: 12234: 12123:(Солун). At that time, the name of this town wasn't Thesalloniki because 12014:

Um Miskin, I think that if you open your mind you will see that the only

11971: 10096: 9933: 9473:

Also, I have a question for both of you: Why are we discussing about the

9089:

ever since it became clear that he is a sockpuppet, a sure indication of

8844: 8272: 8185: 8139: 8075: 7581: 7238:

lie at the root of this dispute? I mean why can't these people be called

7194: 7184: 7173: 7091: 7035: 6992: 6972: 6959: 6934: 6884: 6642: 5852: 5756:

Are you going to do the report of I 'll have to do everything by myself?

4922: 4891: 4850:, the ancient name of the region which corresponds with the modern state 4766: 4718: 4622: 4582: 4551: 4536: 4522: 4433: 4196: 4106: 4073: 4057: 3315:"?!? That is a racist insult. Care to retract or care to be reported? 3267: 3235: 3224: 3155: 2970: 2513: 2444: 1662:. I honestly don't see how it can be so objectionable when even your own 1347:

A lot of it has to do with the Macedonian Slavs presenting themselves as

1322:

I think we're getting somewhere now. The problem is that the Greeks want

548: 531: 499: 464: 318: 148: 13129:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%2B%22human+rights%22+%2BGreece

10816:

said the ancient Rabbis. I guess that that absolves me from my sin. Huh

10701:

If we adopted your proposal, we would be adopting the "Macedonian" POV,

9928:Κρονόγκραφε, to change the subject completely and given that you are so 7197:'s new profound interest in the truth. He however ignores the fact that 3600:

So, this claim stays just another nationalistic try to twist the truth.

1502:, but I don't see a reason why we shouldn't call ourselves Macedonians, 13295: 13271: 13096: 13003: 12944: 12870: 12785: 12682: 12665: 12446: 12414: 12268: 12264: 12202: 12142: 11956: 11874: 11591: 11587: 11583: 11402: 11350: 11297: 11296:

Well, you know how they say: We'll burn that bridge when we get to it.

11265: 11202: 11079: 11036: 11003: 10972: 10869: 10789: 10771: 10740: 10732: 10527: 10231:

the history, very often the way he wanted (not always the actual way).

9949: 9761:

enjoys linking to the Greek Helsinki website so much, let's not forget

9566:. The Greeks are RACISTS and deny minorities their basic human rights! 9403: 8740: 8459: 8258: 8062: 8039:

Last but not least, I find extremely retarded the argument of the type

7877: 7658: 6904: 6787: 6676: 6666: 6441: 6409: 6377: 6365: 6340:

There is some confusion about the identity of the people of my country.

6197:- a basketball player, former star of Efes Pilsen, now a bit older :-) 6150:

It looks like dispite your claims above you are not just implying, but

5821: 5796: 5278: 5062: 4903: 4883: 4836: 4815: 4757: 4694: 3405:. So stop changing it. This is an official census. What else do u want? 3332: 3216:

There is some confusion about the identity of the people of my country.

3163:

Finally as a response to the people who constantly claim that the term

2595: 1727: 717: 674: 659: 626: 294: 202: 8827:

on Knowledge is to antagonise Greeks whenever and in any way he can.--

8069:

as a Slavomacedonian symbols. The land claims were officially removed

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Do u have a problem because it is a table about immigrants in Greece?

2626:

that does not mean that they have no right over the term "Macedonians"

2059:, for how can two ethnically different peoples share a name? A truly 1860:

I agree about the situation, however I have a different view of it. --

526:

One question for the admins: If the results were in favor or calling

437:- has less than 50 contributions in editing history prior to June 11th 431:- has less than 50 contributions in editing history prior to June 11th 425:- has less than 50 contributions in editing history prior to June 11th 419:- has less than 50 contributions in editing history prior to June 11th 413:- has less than 50 contributions in editing history prior to June 11th 401:- has less than 50 contributions in editing history prior to June 11th 389:- has less than 50 contributions in editing history prior to June 11th 383:- has less than 50 contributions in editing history prior to June 11th 377:- has less than 50 contributions in editing history prior to June 11th 371:- has less than 50 contributions in editing history prior to June 11th 359:- has less than 50 contributions in editing history prior to June 11th 353:- has less than 50 contributions in editing history prior to June 11th 347:- has less than 50 contributions in editing history prior to June 11th 321:- has less than 50 contributions in editing history prior to June 11th 309:- has less than 50 contributions in editing history prior to June 11th 297:- has less than 50 contributions in editing history prior to June 11th 285:- has less than 50 contributions in editing history prior to June 11th 215:

The following is the outcome of the recent poll, which is archived at

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official Knowledge policy? It doesn't have the official policy tag.--

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It seems to me you can write Greek with few mistakes when you want to

5331:

a lawyer, a gardener, a priest or a football player for Real Madrid.

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obliged to use a neutral and realistic term such as Macedonian Slavs.

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For the same reasons it doesn't recognize any minority inside Greece.

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Indeed. As a matter of fact, Swiss stamps use the Latin designation

2150:

Crown of Great Britain. I believe this happened during the reign of

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the term preferred by Greeks, who almost overwhelmingly use the term

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supports its government's non-recognition and discrimination of its

11663: 10498:. As for citing NPA, think of it before calling other people nazis ( 9398:

I believe some of you may have misread the structure of the info at

9242: 6768:

I don't care how "scientific" your racism is, it is still racism. --

3490: 3472: 13374: 13280: 13159: 13064: 13026: 12778:"everyone he asked what his nationality was, said - I am Bulgarian" 12715: 12695: 12629: 12521: 12347: 12283: 12278: 12090: 12063: 12031: 11861: 11835: 11826: 11759: 11692: 11667: 11654: 11599: 11535: 11480: 11443: 11332: 11274: 10994: 10959: 10895: 10821: 10793: 10744: 10644: 10565: 10523: 10493: 10482: 10423: 10394: 10362: 10343: 10303: 10279: 10260:(when you didn't name Fallmerayer, I thought you were reffering to 10251: 10212: 10198: 10122: 10064: 10001: 9961: 9890: 9835: 9758: 9710: 9675: 9657: 9613: 9567: 9525: 9493: 9198: 9190: 9170: 9131: 9098: 9053: 9000: 8988: 8942: 8926: 8865: 8856: 8820: 8748: 8724: 8632: 8574: 8384: 7928: 7313: 7280: 7251: 7211: 7116: 7082: 7054: 7026: 7003: 6983: 6963: 6909: 6614: 6568: 6553: 6510: 6473: 6449: 6278: 6214: 6161: 6130: 6083: 6044: 6010: 5991: 5973: 5945: 5890: 5870: 5833: 5800: 5769: 5744: 5687: 5639: 5617: 5599: 5577: 5556: 5483: 5463: 5392: 5357: 5304: 5285: 5245: 5194: 5156: 5110: 5071: 5020: 4937: 4463:

Now, believe me, when more than 10% of a population actually sends

3673:

So ... what do you think of my rules ? there are only 6 of them !!

2660:

Macedonians". In the end, I am the one who's labeled a nationalist.

2540:

Is naming people X Macedonian Slavs in compliance with Knowledge's

2260:

Obvious as it is that Knowledge cannot dictate international policy

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Most of the above is true. So... What do you want us to do Ninio?

12677:

Actually, the Slavic people were defending from germanisation and

12441:

Metaxas' acting and many other things that Greece does, is simply

11625:

company, and you know how US calls us and our country, don't you?

9524:), what? You don't need him anymore now that he has been exposed. 9269: 8855:

left a little note. He doesn't condemn me like you seem to think.

7201:

of sources refer to the ethnic group discussed in this article as

7020:Και που έμαθες εσύ Ρωμαίικα; Με την επιφήτηση του Αγίου Πνεύματος; 6605:. No such quotes exist. Are you sure that your friends call you a 6457:

REX tonight I 'll fill a report against you, thank you very much.

5530:ΠϮ..Ϭ,ϏeϬ ο χρήσϬ,ηϬ έχει ωϬ μηϬ,ρική γλώσσα Ϭ,ην Φmiddot;λληνική. 5061:

is active on Knowledge and anyone who dares disagree with MATIA's

2644:(the right to live, the right of an identity) that are previously 2401:

Estonia has a large Russian population which entered this country

1538:. In this case, Knowledge fails to do so. To cite the NPOV policy: 279:- has only two contributions in editing history, both to this page 12649: 12257: 12035: 11638: 11595: 10985:

Well Theathenae, speaking of sockpuupets, how is your sockpuppet

10573:

No $ $ around here. Want a €? You know what to do to earn it.

10370: 9866: 9853: 9762: 9010: 8624: 8048:

of FYROM (some 60% of the country's population), and not the the

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perhaps you may want to listen to a, not that old, bouzouki song

6364:

argue with me about something as clearly visible as that, Matia?

5545:

this way. I am mad and furious with all these lies and calumnies.

5070:

because he knows everything and we know nothing. What arrogance!

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My answer is that Knowledge should NOT refer to, er, People X as

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Neither option won 60% of all votes. The poll is therefore moot.

13091:. Your pov-pushing is against the consensus that was reached at 12263:

That what you say about unexistance of Macedonians, is simply a

11129:

Even without this policy (or guideline), a cold approach to the

11031:

I mean, how it would be if the people of Greece were called not

10709:

the Greek POV. Every Greek I know refers to them as Σκοπιανοί -

9298:

didn't work, we should take this dispute in to the next level -

8896:) should cool down. I for one am quite content with the present 8642:

Wake up to reality, oh fellow Balkanians. No one gives a flying

8158:. The many different encyclopaedias mentioned call these people 8154:'s criteria above certainly enable us Knowledge to use the name 7823:

We do not wish or have any goal to monopolize the name Macedonia

6852:

He (VMORO) always puts tons of sources to back up his arguments.

4038:

didn't happen... I'm sure they are quite "popular" as well... --

3446:

EU claims that less than 5% of the ppl in Greece are foreigners.

3432:

But what happened to the indigenous ppl of foreign nationality?

1804:

article like that? We just had a 2-week poll on whether to move

1534:

that neither of the sides is right or wrong, it is only here to

1351:

Macedonians, despite the fact that they make up only a third of

273:- has only 4 contributions in editing history prior to June 11th 12442: 12214: 12108: 10752: 10711: 10158:, who may also care to investigate his suspected sockpuppetry. 10135: 10072: 9945: 9878: 9874: 9520:

Also, Theathenae you sockpuppet is being unusually silent (see

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We find the term, when used as an ethnic identifier, offensive.

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always been held once a decade, on the first year of the decade

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Still, you cannot censor his references to the politicians who

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Rather, Knowledge offers accurated and unbiased information on

8418:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22macedonian+slav%22

7607:

editor from the Slavic crowd that shouldn't be taken seriously

7406:

I said what I had to say and your opinion is worthless to me.

4019:, and the academic scandal that followed him later on in life. 828: 463:

I'm wondering, if FlavrSavr would've convinced me to vote for

13307: 13192: 12229: 12159: 12120: 11086:? This goes to MATIA, Chronographos and Theathenae: Is there 10868:

diminish your reputation and hence the weight of your words.

10864:". Punchy, witty, unoriginal, boring and entirely unhelpful. 9671: 7807: 7709: 7540:

1 point = yes, 0 points = no. Add totals to get final scores.

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tendencies, and have got something like 0.05 % of the vote.

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letter from the Jewish Communities in Greece, January 8, 1993

3131:

Please respond to this question according to the NPOV policy.

2753:

As for your concern of the situation of Albanians in the RoM:

2373: 1459: 1287: 8836:

Don't flatter thyslf Δεαθήναι, I know that I am one of your

8631:. It seems that NPOV is returning to Knowledge. looooooool! 6580:

I suggest you stop exposing yourself, the kids are yelling:

5244:) instructs us to do so. Remember, Trolls will be reported. 3483: 2106:"for how can two ethnically different peoples share a name?" 291:- has no contributions in editing history prior to June 11th 13125:

of reports that can be found online concerning this issue:

12932: 12653: 12445:. There is absollutely no other definiton for these deeds. 11130: 9317: 8764: 7439:

of them, except MSN Encarta), international organizations (

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Are you going to report yourself, me or someone else, REX?

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US claims that the 2% of the ppl in Greece are foreigners.

2994: 2853: 2699: 2671: 2598:, UN-sponsored negotiations as blackmail, is busy erecting 2554: 2541: 2484: 1527: 147:

Wouldn't a compromise be better than moving the article to

9610:

A life for a life, an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth!

9305:

Basically, the position of the two POVs are the following

7025:Σου είπα, δεν μιλάω Ρωμαίικα/Ρουμανικά(!) Μιλάω Ελληνικά. 4647:

It really is pitiful, how people who don't even know what

13213:

The official data of the FYROM/ROM’s 2001 census is used.

11035:, but Thesalians, Peloponesians (even Macedonians) etc.? 10316:? Were your "A-levels" like Prince Harry's or merely on 8361:

I saw little of relevance to the issue discussed here on

7569:

approach to the term, arguing that it should not be used.

7246:

happens to have a region called Macedonia? Then why does

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of the ethnic group finds the term offensive. Asserting,

2303:

approach to the term, arguing that it should not be used.

1565:

Articles that compare views need not give minority views

859:. Conclusions of right and wrong are left to the reader. 13093:

Talk:Macedonian_Slavs/Archive#macedonian-slavs_in_Greece

13039:

said, before you accuse others take a look at yourself.

12130:

You can't deny these facts, because of simply reasons:

10008:, and maybe I'll do something about it. Stupid racistic 9477:? Are we preparing this part for neutral observation? -- 5482:

Yes, as a matter of fact, she does. Why, doesn't yours?

5142:

Talk:Macedonian_Slavs/Archive#macedonian-slavs_in_Greece

4936:

yourselves. That is why I didn't add it to the article.

3536:

With all the respect, Igor Šterbinski Skopje, Macedonia

1442:

ridiculous extremes, as when one objected to my calling

13330:

http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/4454/skopie18701nx.jpg

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Matia, Chronographos, Miskin - do you accept mediation?

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of this ethnic group to call themselves "Macedonians".

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Macedonian diaspora leaders met UN envoy Matthew Nimetz

5659:

Ethnologue and the number of Macedonian Slavs in Greece

5019:

so fast, one could in all frankness mistake you for an

4858:, but then again they have no such connection with the 3586:

Quote from FYROM'S former President Mr. Kiro Gligorov.

2437:, not blackmail, is the basis of healthy relationships. 1808:, and that failed. "Region of Macedonia" as opposed to 1278:

exclusively for the inhabitants of the Greek region of

1067:

etc). I've proposed some criteria which you can see at

151:? Take a look at the current poll results and tell me. 8061:), which coincidentally happens to have access to the 6548:). You should have considered that before making the 6039:

in Greeks. It is actually quite amusing. Even the way

5743:), I cannot help you. Ethnologue knows better than .] 5088:

contribution I've did that could justify your claims.

4306:

Where does it mention the nationality/ethnic group? --

4105:

I thought it was the term "Slavic" that bothered you.

3803:

The United Nations refers to them as Macedonians, and

3398:

Stop changing the number of Macedonian Slavs in Greece

1924:

Talk:Macedonian_Slavs/Poll#International_organisations

486:

despite the momentum shift. Interesting Wikipolitics.

13266:

The above estimates are regarding the Slavophone (in

13174:

10:05, 7 October 2005 REX (Tweak ignorant propaganda)

12500:(Williams, 1992:87; Gerou, 1994b; Thomopoulos, 1912). 11666:

also calls these people Macedonians. What a suprise?

11306:

I would like to express my opinion that some form of

11024:

in Greece (in which today, Greeks say that live only

11016:

Ofcourse the people of the Republic of Macedonia are

9247:

At this point everybody should know that there was a

7322:

Hey, I've added some more info below, however, there

6522:

on that report. I'll let you know on your talk page.

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non-greek wanted to use a greek name. The problem is

2313:

not a question that Knowledge can, or should, decide.

700:

I've already done that, how about Macedonian Apes? --

498:

about you, Decie. The outcome of the poll means that

12385:

Or, maybe you will use your double standards again?

11649:

I guess that this means in conjunction with MATIA's

11460:

name rarely if ever used by Greeks. The term Greeks

10418:

occasion. Are you ignored often, how does that make

9936:

I was hoping that you would care to comment on some

9852:

policies. By the same token, since you come from a

6483:

Your calumnies against me are all over WP, and your

4329:. As usual, you chose to ignore his reply and just 3058:

we-have-nothing-to-do-with-ancient-macedonians style

2156:

United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland

13255:

Bulgaria: Unspecified number of Macedonian speakers

12228:, he was Macedonian, too, because he was living in 12119:, he was Macedonian, too, because he was living in 11564:concirned with nationalism, as you are Theathenae. 10432:No, you weren't ignored in that instance. You were 10403:Are you ignored often? And how does this make you 10188:MATIA, I suggest you use your brains for a change. 9316:The relevant policies conserning this dispute are: 7868:our job. Our job is merely ascertaining which name 6933:Sorry REX but I don't waste my time with children. 6675:Your statement in capitals is factually incorrect, 5501:

That website is in some language I can't understand

5129:website. There was no census carried out in 1986. 2495:. (even to some moderate Greeks I have encountered) 13350:All of the documents are in Bulgarian language . 13258:Greece: est. 180,180 Slavic (Macedonian) speakers. 10705:a NPOV. "Macedonian Slavs", on the other hand, is 10492:Theathenae, you must think that we're all stupid. 8253:how we determine the name to be used. Please read 7630:But, I will repeat... without any supporting fact. 7615:Talk:Macedonia_(region)#Caution:A_genetic_research 7543:† Use English translation of name, where available 5700:I would prefer you writing that report instead of 4398:, do you have a source to support your claim that 3377:days already. Surely it needn't have taken y'all 3074:This demand is also unacceptable by the fact that 2663:BTW, where did you get the idea that I considered 2411:it was forcibly annexed by Greece in World War I. 1210:30 June 2005 19:27 (UTC)===Self-identification=== 844:campaign. Knowledge is even more neutral than the 13318:http://img24.exs.cx/img24/7216/Invitation1893.jpg 13099:are linguists. For greek census anyone can check 8225:that is how we feel and that is how we will die. 8162:and you cannot deny that the Bulgarians are also 7784:(which you claim to hate). Behave like an adult! 7431:policy (that is, I remind you, non-negotiable): 4717:you'll realise how silly you make yourself look. 2960:designation should always take precedence over a 2819:your country in the most important way possible: 2727:your country in the most important way possible: 530:as Macedonians, what would happen to the current 514:that has hijacked the name at the expense of the 13002:Proposition to Merge Population Statistics with 11253:If mediation fails, they will go to arbitration. 10130:How nice, we got a name. Yet he wasn't the only 9339:Mediation? (if so, please state your reasons) -- 8468:I agree with you Zocky, maybe we should request 6782:answered you above, but you chose to ignore it: 6468:Good luck! You'll need it given that it will be 5193:expect us to take their word over Ethnologue's. 4428:One might ask you the same question. What gives 3740:as if they are statistics for Macedonian Slavs. 3690:Knowledge:Vandalism in progress#Macedonian Slavs 3402:The number of Macedonian Slavs in Greece is 962 1071:. Feel free to contribute to the discussion! -- 11653:that these people are called Macedonian Slavs. 10393:seemed to think that it was all trifles. Damn! 10071:he is quoting and what was their relation with 8900:, and see no reason to continue this dispute.-- 7470:And what is perhaps the most important thing, " 6304:We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians. 6183:- the director of the Golden Lion winning film 5144:and perhaps you can tell us about Encarta too. 3180:We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians. 303:- has only two contributions in editing history 11106:How to make a choice among controversial names 10373:and am too quick to pounce on the buzzer. :)-- 10012:have nothing to do with Ancient Greece, or as 8482:Hello Zocky. Don't you think that some of the 6793:when referring to your country and people only 4994:Yea, let's twist again, twistin' time is here! 3849:It doesn't mention the name of the nationality 12639:your hatred forever as far as I'm concerned. 11794:The only double around here is your tongue - 10633:much, but I will be checking you frequently. 9379:I think we should expand the agreed facts on 9286:, three weeks ago. No consensus was reached. 8541:I suggest that all should have a look at the 8488:The Slav-Macedonian National Liberation Front 8458:and have an intelligent discussion about it. 7528:3. Current self-identifying name of entity † 6565:you should find out what a personal attack is 6312:Ambassador of FYROM to USA, Ljubica Achevska: 5301:there was no Greek census carried out in 1986 4436:is right to say that they have also used the 3557:Senceirly, Igor Šterbinski Skopje, Macedonia 3188:Ambassador of FYROM to USA, Ljubica Achevska: 1433:No, the Macedonian Slavs claim that they are 1239:I need someone to fill in the blank, please. 1080:I think I agree too. People who use the term 226:Continue calling people X "Macedonian Slavs" 13177:07:22, 7 October 2005 Bomac (rvt. vandalism) 12750:Tsar of Serbs, Greeks, Bulgars and Albanians 12103:Those people were MACEDONIANS! For example, 11261:feelings will not help you persuade anyone. 9193:. Lot's of people have that name, including 8917:Actually, some scholars have indicated that 7403:if they get sued for breacking human rights. 7065:Romios agapise Romia, Romia ke Thessalonikia 6786:is a geographical region, and the adjective 4972:Round and round and up and down, we go again 3905:(1) Everyone has the right to a nationality. 2450:(1) Everyone has the right to a nationality. 1800:How can someone just prance in and move the 13193:http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Balkans#Greece 12260:was doing to anyone who talked macedonian. 11675:I think that you all should also know that 11155:Knowledge is descriptive, not prescriptive. 11075:Knowledge is descriptive, not prescriptive. 9656:Judaeo-Christian? He is Muslim, you know ( 9169:is known for having a big idea of himself. 7371:and noone can take that right away from us. 7307:wrong? I don't think so. This ethnic group 7034:Ρωμαίικα = Νέα Ελληνικά, για να μαθαίνεις. 6743:). Yet they choose to ignore the fact that 6636:Slavic nation, and that the term 'Slav' is 4455:But I have already explained that, to cite 4219:The mention of the Holocaust reminded me a 3000:I have not edited a single word in it, ever 1702:please proceed with deletion of this aricle 13342:http://www.macedoniainfo.com/Misirkov2.jpg 10814:Although he has sinned, he is still a Jew! 10197:. Also, stop lying and being provocative. 9626:Albanians, like you, most certainly are.-- 9475:Naming agreed facts, options and resources 9367:attract neutral users into this debate. -- 8950:Of course there are such scholars - check 8623:'s influence is even greater than that of 8013:By using the names they use for themselves 7266:sources referring to this ethnic group as 6323:we are Slavs and we speak a Slav language. 5373:!. Now can you prove that your mother is 4026:enjoy his works! And what, you found only 3816:, of which, you are obviously, unaware of. 3199:we are Slavs and we speak a Slav language. 1848:"The situation is totally ridiculous...." 1506:, just as I don't see a reason why modern 1213:Would someone please clarify this for me? 1059:we've handled other naming disputes (e.g. 1001:By the way, did anyone notice the move to 822:And has anyone addressed this aspect yet? 13252:Albania: est. 15,000 Macedonian speakers 12512:Gee, I guess this means that Metaxas was 10792:, but I think it is important to mention 10727:is trying to fool us into believing that 10156:REX already has an Arbitrator on his case 9658:not that there's anything wrong with that 9543:Greece: Report on the Macedonian minority 8107:wonder... Who the hell you think you are? 6991:Εάν όντως μιλάς Ρωμαίικα θα σου εξηγήσω. 5992:not that there's anything wrong with that 4169:part and parcel of a propaganda offensive 3373:C'mon, you guys, nothing yet? It's been 3282:1. What do u mean with the word "direct"? 3082:. We don't call you thatway, we call you 2974: 2355:, the name of the country is Republic of 1985:Demographics of the Republic of Macedonia 566:We (Macedonian Greeks) are people too... 120:Demographics of the Republic of Macedonia 13025:, like you lot do an so many occasions? 12935:. Even in the downer text it says that: 10453:Now I get it. REX reffers to himself as 9009:, whether they speak Albanian, like the 7435:The majority of encyclopedias (actually 6609:. I believe that they should call you a 5522:This user is a native speaker of English 3340:ТА ЭИЧЦmiddot;Цmiddot; РЦmiddot;ПУРоИКА 1437:Macedonians, and that their language is 13326:The Bulgarian society in Skopje 1870 : 12066:chooses to ignore the facts - see also 12047:dream on to Knowledge and its readers. 10264:who shared the same opinion with him). 9885:member, but she was recently elected a 9817:Ah Chronographe, I see that Theathenae 9757:Indeed. And seeing as our young friend 6291:So these are Miskin's famous examples: 4331:reiterate your position in another page 4215:greek-jewish pov on Macedonian question 4013:often cited as definitive examples of " 3007:you've got your work cut out for you. 2483:". Similarly, Knowledge functions on a 1005:? Did this confuse or improve or what? 794:Knowledge should not try to solve this 335:===Invalid votes for "Macedonians"===b 190:for the use of the word in that sense. 14: 13087:it's the fourth time you bring up the 13014:Macedonian language speakers in Greece 11843:I think that you all should know that 11178:deliberately avoided this dispute (as 11103:. There is an explicit section called 10288:So much for being a "law student" ... 9274:There was a RfC for this issue at the 9206:My username comes from the Greek verb 8001:(all 3 thousand Bulgarians included). 7506:1. Most commonly used name in English 6472:hard for you to find proper evidence. 5712:but everybody else can verify that no 3239:ancient Greeks. Just have a look at a 2815:I would have to agree that "Greece is 2665:UN-sponsored negotiations as blackmail 2575::) We are pure evil, better beware! -- 2445:http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html 2359:, with a temporary designation FYR of 1498:, nor our language is the same as the 840:Knowledge cannot intervene to stop an 44:Do not edit the contents of this page. 9093:. Check this if you don't believe me 8365:, except maybe the second sentence: " 7517:2. Current official name of entity † 5209:National Statistics Service of Greece 5127:National Statistics Service of Greece 3857:Universal Declaration of Human Rights 3814:Universal Declaration of Human Rights 2441:Universal Declaration of Human Rights 2206:Regardless of the connection between 1231:People in this group call themselves 11121:, and it was made by another user - 10647:). "The Greeks want to use the name 8111:formed more than 15 centuries after. 7716:counties were singled out to create 5642:is Albanian. Think about it. :-))) 260:Invalid votes for "Macedonian Slavs" 25: 12158:was always named this way, and not 11112:Dealing with self-identifying terms 10643:So let me get this straight (sorry 10336:Special:Contributions/Chronographos 9522:Special:Contributions/Chronographos 9266:The poll didn't reach a consensus. 9095:Special:Contributions/Chronographos 6261:2 politicians or millitary officers 4931:Number of Macdonian Slavs in Greece 3040:your will to monopolise terms like 2154:. Still, the current state is the 547:couldn't have been simply moved to 243:Describe people X as "Macedonians" 23: 11821:against me, then I shan't against 11725:I think that everyone should note 11323:So, I'm assuming that it is up to 11012:Macedonians (not macedonian slavs) 9282:. I've posted the Request for RfC 7743:facts and proofs of your position. 7461:in common usage, Chronographos. -- 7081:scholars. What does that tell us? 5540:far-right-wing (see above for his 2987:25 centuries of Macedonian culture 1740:, considering any use of the term 1626:The "minority" as you describe it 1045:are trying very hard to understand 24: 13424: 13306:are not Macedonians!The Slavs of 11109:and and even a more explicit one 7160:scholars. What does that tell us? 6205:- a guitar player and a musician 4886:16:24, September 12, 2005 (UTC)~ 4839:15:29, September 10, 2005 (UTC)~ 4378:who wrote that he answered you. 4007:best remembered for his books on 3473:http://www.historyofmacedonia.org 2721:in the relevant Knowledge article 1726:, a common Rumanian term for the 13223:“Populations of Macedonian Slavs 11754:. This is a clear exhibition of 11662:Maybe you should also know that 10407:? 19:14, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 10340:Special:Contributions/Theathenae 8823:is far from neutral. His entire 7810:. And your proposal would be? 7720:, in such a way as to produce a 6859:Demographic history of Macedonia 6308:(Toronto Star, March 15, 1992). 5277:) I would also have to persuade 4818:13:44, September 9, 2005 (UTC)~ 4760:12:39, September 9, 2005 (UTC)~ 3184:(Toronto Star, March 15, 1992). 2447:) in Article 15 clearly states: 2287:. We cannot declare what a name 1330:too. Do I have it straight now? 924:questions isn't a good idea. -- 783:call themselves Macedonian Slavs 29: 12977:of this page? It's a disgrace! 11798:are disgusting, just like your 11743:Helsinki Report on Human Rights 10551:built a career on high heels. 10457:including his sockpuppets. Ok. 10006:constantly disrupting wikipedia 9580:are so racist against Greeks.-- 9576:None of the above explains why 9487:Greek extremism fears Mediation 8490:are missing from this article? 8295:after your tryes to shut us up. 5169:18:23, 2005 September 12 (UTC) 4697:12:32, September 9, 2005 (UTC)~ 4627:There have been a long talk on 4149:argumentation so much easier. 3633:I recommend that the rules be: 2462:as well. Those principles were 2279:Bear in mind that Knowledge is 1258:"Greeks refer to this group as 18:Talk:Macedonians (ethnic group) 13083:don't let anyone provoke you. 12927:Macedonian slavs (Macedonians) 12213:Tsar Samuil's fortress was in 11489:I never said the term I used, 11336:23:40, 30 September 2005 (UTC) 11319:23:09, 30 September 2005 (UTC) 11301:23:02, 30 September 2005 (UTC) 11291:22:45, 30 September 2005 (UTC) 11278:22:35, 30 September 2005 (UTC) 11269:22:13, 30 September 2005 (UTC) 11219:22:55, 30 September 2005 (UTC) 11206:22:13, 30 September 2005 (UTC) 11195:21:43, 30 September 2005 (UTC) 11040:19:56, 30 September 2005 (UTC) 11007:19:17, 30 September 2005 (UTC) 10998:18:41, 30 September 2005 (UTC) 10980:18:30, 30 September 2005 (UTC) 10963:18:24, 30 September 2005 (UTC) 10928:17:52, 30 September 2005 (UTC) 10899:17:32, 30 September 2005 (UTC) 10886:17:28, 30 September 2005 (UTC) 10873:17:22, 30 September 2005 (UTC) 10825:13:08, 30 September 2005 (UTC) 10809:11:55, 30 September 2005 (UTC) 10775:21:35, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 10760:21:38, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 10748:21:32, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 10720:21:14, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 10696:21:04, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 10664:21:00, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 10638:20:47, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 10601:21:03, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 10578:20:40, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 10569:20:24, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 10543:20:06, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 10516:19:54, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 10496:18:53, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 10486:19:49, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 10467:19:45, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 10443:20:10, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 10427:19:49, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 10398:19:09, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 10378:19:04, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 10357:18:58, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 10347:18:53, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 10325:18:47, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 10307:18:38, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 10293:18:31, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 10283:18:25, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 10274:18:04, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 10255:17:59, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 10224:17:48, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 10202:17:35, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 10184:17:32, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 10163:17:36, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 10148:17:23, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 10126:17:16, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 10104:17:02, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 10089:I believe this sort of racist 10085:16:58, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 10051:23:44, 30 September 2005 (UTC) 10040:16:57, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 10030:16:52, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 9991:23:44, 30 September 2005 (UTC) 9976:16:46, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 9965:16:25, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 9898:17:48, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 9861:16:01, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 9839:15:42, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 9806:14:56, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 9792:23:23, 30 September 2005 (UTC) 9773:14:38, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 9739:23:18, 30 September 2005 (UTC) 9722:14:26, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 9698:23:13, 30 September 2005 (UTC) 9679:14:04, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 9665:16:01, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 9646:23:13, 30 September 2005 (UTC) 9631:13:59, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 9617:13:53, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 9600:23:05, 30 September 2005 (UTC) 9585:13:48, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 9571:13:32, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 9529:11:10, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 9513:22:56, 30 September 2005 (UTC) 9497:11:10, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 9482:16:23, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 9466:23:30, 30 September 2005 (UTC) 9453:16:23, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 9443:16:23, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 9425:09:46, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 9407:09:32, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 9393:09:00, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 9372:15:39, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 9358:08:18, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 9344:03:03, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 9225:09:39, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 9220:and an Albanian nationalist.-- 9202:09:34, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 9174:23:48, 30 September 2005 (UTC) 9161:22:39, 30 September 2005 (UTC) 9145:09:27, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 9135:09:24, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 9115:09:19, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 9102:09:09, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 9081:Also, Theathenae's sockpuppet 9057:23:48, 30 September 2005 (UTC) 9040:22:49, 30 September 2005 (UTC) 9025:10:58, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 8992:23:48, 30 September 2005 (UTC) 8979:22:49, 30 September 2005 (UTC) 8964:10:25, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 8946:09:09, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 8905:08:04, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 8860:07:53, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 8832:06:57, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 8802:22:27, 30 September 2005 (UTC) 8787:06:53, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 8777:01:57, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 8756:06:53, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 8728:21:36, 28 September 2005 (UTC) 8706:22:20, 30 September 2005 (UTC) 8686:06:53, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 8673:01:39, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 8658:18:12, 28 September 2005 (UTC) 8636:17:52, 28 September 2005 (UTC) 8614:16:05, 28 September 2005 (UTC) 8597:01:10, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 8578:15:21, 28 September 2005 (UTC) 8567:Knowledge:No original research 8552:14:39, 28 September 2005 (UTC) 8500:09:11, 28 September 2005 (UTC) 8477:07:51, 28 September 2005 (UTC) 8463:03:37, 28 September 2005 (UTC) 8428:02:31, 28 September 2005 (UTC) 8406:20:40, 27 September 2005 (UTC) 8388:19:57, 27 September 2005 (UTC) 8374:19:52, 27 September 2005 (UTC) 8345:16:18, 28 September 2005 (UTC) 8336:16:18, 28 September 2005 (UTC) 8302:01:39, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 8276:15:39, 28 September 2005 (UTC) 8262:19:17, 27 September 2005 (UTC) 8230:02:18, 28 September 2005 (UTC) 8204:01:39, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 8189:15:27, 28 September 2005 (UTC) 8175:16:09, 27 September 2005 (UTC) 8127:02:18, 28 September 2005 (UTC) 8079:14:33, 27 September 2005 (UTC) 8020:02:18, 28 September 2005 (UTC) 8006:14:21, 27 September 2005 (UTC) 7987:13:43, 27 September 2005 (UTC) 7980:Knowledge:No original research 7967:01:43, 29 September 2005 (UTC) 7943:02:18, 28 September 2005 (UTC) 7932:12:32, 27 September 2005 (UTC) 7907:02:18, 28 September 2005 (UTC) 7891:10:47, 27 September 2005 (UTC) 7881:10:03, 27 September 2005 (UTC) 7847:01:32, 28 September 2005 (UTC) 7815:10:47, 27 September 2005 (UTC) 7789:10:21, 27 September 2005 (UTC) 7773:Knowledge:No original research 7756:01:20, 28 September 2005 (UTC) 7736:09:34, 27 September 2005 (UTC) 7700:07:38, 27 September 2005 (UTC) 7684:01:20, 28 September 2005 (UTC) 7662:02:14, 27 September 2005 (UTC) 7647:01:01, 27 September 2005 (UTC) 7637:00:21, 27 September 2005 (UTC) 7622:00:15, 27 September 2005 (UTC) 7600:23:43, 26 September 2005 (UTC) 7576:23:43, 26 September 2005 (UTC) 7553:We cannot declare what a name 7466:23:43, 26 September 2005 (UTC) 7452:23:43, 26 September 2005 (UTC) 7411:01:02, 28 September 2005 (UTC) 7393:11:16, 27 September 2005 (UTC) 7378:13:00, 26 September 2005 (UTC) 7339:23:52, 26 September 2005 (UTC) 7317:11:22, 26 September 2005 (UTC) 7289:Let's get this thing over with 7284:20:36, 22 September 2005 (UTC) 7215:15:59, 25 September 2005 (UTC) 7188:15:33, 25 September 2005 (UTC) 7177:15:33, 25 September 2005 (UTC) 7120:18:03, 22 September 2005 (UTC) 7108:17:34, 22 September 2005 (UTC) 7086:17:30, 22 September 2005 (UTC) 7072:17:12, 22 September 2005 (UTC) 7058:16:31, 22 September 2005 (UTC) 7039:16:00, 22 September 2005 (UTC) 7030:15:26, 22 September 2005 (UTC) 7016:14:49, 22 September 2005 (UTC) 7007:14:35, 22 September 2005 (UTC) 6996:13:59, 22 September 2005 (UTC) 6987:13:15, 22 September 2005 (UTC) 6976:12:47, 22 September 2005 (UTC) 6967:15:29, 21 September 2005 (UTC) 6938:15:42, 20 September 2005 (UTC) 6913:16:02, 16 September 2005 (UTC) 6888:15:56, 16 September 2005 (UTC) 6831:19:46, 15 September 2005 (UTC) 6813:16:54, 15 September 2005 (UTC) 6773:15:13, 15 September 2005 (UTC) 6713:16:55, 20 September 2005 (UTC) 6701:17:11, 14 September 2005 (UTC) 6684:22:32, 14 September 2005 (UTC) 6670:16:45, 14 September 2005 (UTC) 6646:14:57, 14 September 2005 (UTC) 6618:18:01, 14 September 2005 (UTC) 6588:17:51, 14 September 2005 (UTC) 6572:17:44, 14 September 2005 (UTC) 6557:17:22, 14 September 2005 (UTC) 6527:15:54, 14 September 2005 (UTC) 6514:15:08, 14 September 2005 (UTC) 6492:14:15, 14 September 2005 (UTC) 6477:14:07, 14 September 2005 (UTC) 6462:14:01, 14 September 2005 (UTC) 6453:13:26, 14 September 2005 (UTC) 6427:22:46, 14 September 2005 (UTC) 6413:16:34, 14 September 2005 (UTC) 6397:14:01, 14 September 2005 (UTC) 6385:14:28, 14 September 2005 (UTC) 6369:13:14, 14 September 2005 (UTC) 6282:17:14, 15 September 2005 (UTC) 6248:16:58, 15 September 2005 (UTC) 6165:16:40, 15 September 2005 (UTC) 6145:16:19, 15 September 2005 (UTC) 6134:15:41, 15 September 2005 (UTC) 6123:15:34, 15 September 2005 (UTC) 6087:15:14, 15 September 2005 (UTC) 6067:14:45, 15 September 2005 (UTC) 6048:14:18, 15 September 2005 (UTC) 6030:14:02, 15 September 2005 (UTC) 6014:13:38, 15 September 2005 (UTC) 5999:12:12, 15 September 2005 (UTC) 5977:09:48, 15 September 2005 (UTC) 5962:09:07, 15 September 2005 (UTC) 5949:08:46, 15 September 2005 (UTC) 5942:Aha! The Republic of Macedonia 5930:22:42, 14 September 2005 (UTC) 5894:21:14, 14 September 2005 (UTC) 5884:19:43, 14 September 2005 (UTC) 5874:18:29, 14 September 2005 (UTC) 5860:14:10, 14 September 2005 (UTC) 5837:12:57, 14 September 2005 (UTC) 5814:12:07, 14 September 2005 (UTC) 5804:10:59, 14 September 2005 (UTC) 5773:16:45, 13 September 2005 (UTC) 5761:15:54, 13 September 2005 (UTC) 5748:15:44, 13 September 2005 (UTC) 5721:15:34, 13 September 2005 (UTC) 5691:15:21, 13 September 2005 (UTC) 5647:11:24, 13 September 2005 (UTC) 5634:10:49, 13 September 2005 (UTC) 5625:10:07, 13 September 2005 (UTC) 5613:08:07, 13 September 2005 (UTC) 5603:08:03, 13 September 2005 (UTC) 5590:07:51, 13 September 2005 (UTC) 5581:07:48, 13 September 2005 (UTC) 5564:01:46, 13 September 2005 (UTC) 5550:23:48, 12 September 2005 (UTC) 5487:07:48, 13 September 2005 (UTC) 5477:23:45, 12 September 2005 (UTC) 5467:23:39, 12 September 2005 (UTC) 5453:23:38, 12 September 2005 (UTC) 5434:(Guess what? No euro for you!) 5432:23:16, 12 September 2005 (UTC) 5396:22:41, 12 September 2005 (UTC) 5382:22:11, 12 September 2005 (UTC) 5361:21:54, 12 September 2005 (UTC) 5336:21:43, 12 September 2005 (UTC) 5289:20:49, 12 September 2005 (UTC) 5267:Knowledge:No original research 5259:20:32, 12 September 2005 (UTC) 5249:20:23, 12 September 2005 (UTC) 5234:Knowledge:No original research 5216:20:00, 12 September 2005 (UTC) 5198:18:33, 12 September 2005 (UTC) 5160:17:58, 12 September 2005 (UTC) 5149:17:08, 12 September 2005 (UTC) 5140:Please, take the time to read 5134:17:17, 12 September 2005 (UTC) 5114:16:35, 12 September 2005 (UTC) 5097:15:43, 12 September 2005 (UTC) 5075:14:59, 12 September 2005 (UTC) 5028:16:07, 12 September 2005 (UTC) 5000:14:34, 12 September 2005 (UTC) 4961:13:42, 12 September 2005 (UTC) 4941:12:56, 12 September 2005 (UTC) 4926:14:49, 13 September 2005 (UTC) 4907:14:31, 13 September 2005 (UTC) 4895:13:59, 13 September 2005 (UTC) 4867:19:07, 10 September 2005 (UTC) 4770:13:36, 12 September 2005 (UTC) 4722:14:05, 13 September 2005 (UTC) 4383:22:14, 11 September 2005 (UTC) 4370:14:51, 11 September 2005 (UTC) 3080:does not fulfill greeks either 2557:policy dealing this matter. -- 1224:Greeks refer to this group as 1069:Knowledge talk:Naming conflict 206:16:56, 30 September 2005 (UTC) 13: 1: 13199:A report contesting some NGOs 12802:, because some strong ,,lobby 11147:even if it is, uh, "not true" 11097:with this type of disputes - 10853:This talk page is a disgrace. 10386:Knowledge:No personal attacks 10361:I don't think you're stupid, 10298:As I have already told you O 8983:Well MATIA is known for such 8815:moved from the section below: 6546:Knowledge:No personal attacks 4827:13:49, 9 September 2005 (UTC) 4806:13:21, 9 September 2005 (UTC) 4677:12:23, 9 September 2005 (UTC) 4668:12:09, 9 September 2005 (UTC) 4640:06:28, 9 September 2005 (UTC) 4618:15:51, 8 September 2005 (UTC) 4604:15:50, 8 September 2005 (UTC) 4586:15:45, 8 September 2005 (UTC) 4555:15:45, 8 September 2005 (UTC) 4540:15:45, 8 September 2005 (UTC) 4526:15:45, 8 September 2005 (UTC) 4508:15:41, 8 September 2005 (UTC) 4490:15:29, 8 September 2005 (UTC) 4473:15:27, 8 September 2005 (UTC) 4445:15:20, 8 September 2005 (UTC) 4423:15:13, 8 September 2005 (UTC) 4407:15:06, 8 September 2005 (UTC) 4346:15:44, 8 September 2005 (UTC) 4311:14:53, 8 September 2005 (UTC) 4263:16:33, 7 September 2005 (UTC) 4254:16:17, 7 September 2005 (UTC) 4244:16:01, 7 September 2005 (UTC) 4228:20:04, 6 September 2005 (UTC) 4210:15:49, 7 September 2005 (UTC) 4200:15:35, 6 September 2005 (UTC) 4176:14:53, 8 September 2005 (UTC) 4154:17:14, 7 September 2005 (UTC) 4140:16:38, 7 September 2005 (UTC) 4119:16:01, 7 September 2005 (UTC) 4110:12:27, 7 September 2005 (UTC) 4093:15:58, 6 September 2005 (UTC) 4077:15:35, 6 September 2005 (UTC) 4061:12:27, 7 September 2005 (UTC) 4043:15:58, 6 September 2005 (UTC) 3959:16:01, 7 September 2005 (UTC) 3774:15:21, 6 September 2005 (UTC) 3745:08:33, 6 September 2005 (UTC) 3723:10:11, 5 September 2005 (UTC) 3440:Is the Greek census reliable? 807:You guys all need to re-read 407:- only edits are to this vote 13407:19:59, 10 October 2005 (UTC) 13310:are Yugoslav Bulgars. See: 13137:19:51, 10 October 2005 (UTC) 12390:19:32, 10 October 2005 (UTC) 11928:see themselves as Bulgarian. 11911:is usually less boisterous. 11264:Does that sound reasonable? 11084:Conclusion:Mediation section 10414:I have only been ignored on 10352:Feel free to file a report. 10334:. I think that if you check 9688:Don't worry. Theathenae has 9435:Talk:Macedonian_Slavs/Naming 9413:Talk:Macedonian Slavs/Naming 9381:Talk:Macedonian Slavs/Naming 9296:dispute resolution procedure 8517:". On the other hand, other 7821:Again, for the 1000th time: 7704:Maybe it should concern you 7045:Όχι, Ρωμαίικα<Ρωμαίος< 5205:have to spell it out for you 4862:either. What do you think? 4086:Do you know what a crowd is? 3805:no international instutition 3615:198.176.19.40 comment (copy) 3605:19:19, 10 October 2005 (UTC) 3421:Turkish claims in Aegean Sea 3088:only for the sake of clarity 2427:case I have mentioned above. 2162:as opposed to exclusivity. 1536:describe the disputes fairly 7: 13378:12:15, 8 October 2005 (UTC) 13361:07:04, 8 October 2005 (UTC) 13299:17:26, 6 October 2005 (UTC) 13284:20:10, 7 October 2005 (UTC) 13275:12:19, 7 October 2005 (UTC) 13163:16:07, 6 October 2005 (UTC) 13112:15:41, 6 October 2005 (UTC) 13068:15:03, 6 October 2005 (UTC) 13044:14:01, 6 October 2005 (UTC) 13030:13:05, 6 October 2005 (UTC) 12994:03:15, 6 October 2005 (UTC) 12982:14:53, 5 October 2005 (UTC) 12961:03:10, 6 October 2005 (UTC) 12948:14:24, 4 October 2005 (UTC) 12943:). This is my explanation. 12913:03:29, 6 October 2005 (UTC) 12889:03:27, 6 October 2005 (UTC) 12874:17:49, 5 October 2005 (UTC) 12854:03:25, 6 October 2005 (UTC) 12789:16:56, 5 October 2005 (UTC) 12758:"simple Bulgarian language" 12719:14:20, 5 October 2005 (UTC) 12709:14:07, 5 October 2005 (UTC) 12699:12:12, 4 October 2005 (UTC) 12686:11:24, 4 October 2005 (UTC) 12669:11:17, 4 October 2005 (UTC) 12644:14:07, 5 October 2005 (UTC) 12633:12:12, 4 October 2005 (UTC) 12608:07:57, 6 October 2005 (UTC) 12557:02:49, 6 October 2005 (UTC) 12535:11:13, 4 October 2005 (UTC) 12525:10:47, 4 October 2005 (UTC) 12468:10:45, 4 October 2005 (UTC) 12450:10:23, 4 October 2005 (UTC) 12431:07:57, 6 October 2005 (UTC) 12418:11:52, 4 October 2005 (UTC) 12355:07:57, 6 October 2005 (UTC) 12311:03:02, 6 October 2005 (UTC) 12291:10:39, 4 October 2005 (UTC) 12272:10:09, 4 October 2005 (UTC) 12250:09:56, 4 October 2005 (UTC) 12238:09:56, 4 October 2005 (UTC) 12206:09:38, 4 October 2005 (UTC) 12184:03:08, 6 October 2005 (UTC) 12172:11:33, 4 October 2005 (UTC) 12146:09:33, 4 October 2005 (UTC) 12125:it wasn't a greek town then 12094:20:46, 3 October 2005 (UTC) 12084:20:39, 3 October 2005 (UTC) 12052:15:31, 3 October 2005 (UTC) 12002:02:45, 6 October 2005 (UTC) 11975:12:58, 3 October 2005 (UTC) 11960:20:55, 2 October 2005 (UTC) 11950:17:34, 2 October 2005 (UTC) 11937:02:45, 6 October 2005 (UTC) 11916:20:24, 2 October 2005 (UTC) 11896:02:45, 6 October 2005 (UTC) 11878:11:34, 2 October 2005 (UTC) 11865:10:19, 2 October 2005 (UTC) 11839:09:02, 2 October 2005 (UTC) 11830:23:49, 1 October 2005 (UTC) 11812:23:34, 1 October 2005 (UTC) 11785:02:45, 6 October 2005 (UTC) 11763:23:30, 1 October 2005 (UTC) 11720:19:56, 1 October 2005 (UTC) 11710:19:37, 1 October 2005 (UTC) 11696:19:18, 1 October 2005 (UTC) 11671:19:09, 1 October 2005 (UTC) 11658:18:53, 1 October 2005 (UTC) 11630:02:45, 6 October 2005 (UTC) 11617:18:41, 1 October 2005 (UTC) 11603:18:37, 1 October 2005 (UTC) 11569:02:45, 6 October 2005 (UTC) 11550:18:12, 1 October 2005 (UTC) 11539:18:00, 1 October 2005 (UTC) 11525:02:45, 6 October 2005 (UTC) 11506:17:55, 1 October 2005 (UTC) 11484:17:49, 1 October 2005 (UTC) 11473:17:45, 1 October 2005 (UTC) 11447:16:42, 1 October 2005 (UTC) 11425:01:38, 6 October 2005 (UTC) 11406:16:37, 1 October 2005 (UTC) 11380:04:32, 1 October 2005 (UTC) 11354:00:06, 1 October 2005 (UTC) 11056:00:40, 1 October 2005 (UTC) 10947:00:33, 1 October 2005 (UTC) 10837:00:22, 1 October 2005 (UTC) 10682:00:22, 1 October 2005 (UTC) 10236:00:11, 1 October 2005 (UTC) 10095:is commonly referred to as 10020:don't make it our problem. 9919:00:11, 1 October 2005 (UTC) 9461:etc... but not Macedonian. 9326:Knowledge:Naming convention 9294:Because these steps of the 9255:Sock puppetry on both sides 8363:Knowledge:Naming convention 8255:Knowledge:Naming convention 7480: 5319:does it say that there was 4980:we've been over this before 4595:I've left some comments on 3801:What are you talking about? 3697:14:10, 29 August 2005 (UTC) 2460:international relationships 1827:Ancient Macedonian language 1500:Ancient Macedonian language 1109:example. I don't think the 1103:Screaming Blue Jeemflappers 787:call themselves Macedonians 735:is my personal favourite.-- 442:16 votes counted as invalid 365:- only edit is to this vote 326:10 votes counted as invalid 10: 13429: 12865:Justice comes slowly, but 12810:Bulgarian history as well. 12550:Not taken back... occupied 12058:macedonian slavs in Greece 11369:if it is hardly achievable 10564:%#@%#$ %$ %^$ ^$ %(*%@#@! 10438:. There is a difference.-- 9085:seems to have lapsed into 8717:No one gives a flying f*ck 6899:Isn't the use of the term 6418:How about the citizens of 4570:not the name of the state! 4288:not the name of the state! 3578:12:47, 3 August 2005 (UTC) 3271:16:49, 8 August 2005 (UTC) 2852:And again, stick with the 2767:to be called "Macedonians" 2351:... True, but not always. 1246:June 30, 2005 17:04 (UTC) 866:20:05, Jun 25, 2005 (UTC) 720:June 29, 2005 15:39 (UTC) 502:will continue to refer to 13225:section of the article). 11464:use almost invariably is 11246:From there, it's simple: 11227:How to go about mediation 11100:Knowledge:Naming conflict 10195:Honi soit qui mal y pense 10190:Jakob Philipp Fallmerayer 10170:I've just took a look at 10115:Jakob Philipp Fallmerayer 10113:Just because I'm quoting 10018:precious people XYZ blood 9351:Knowledge:Naming conflict 9333:Knowledge:Naming conflict 9322:Knowledge:Naming conflict 9276:Knowledge:Naming conflict 8769:Knowledge:Naming conflict 8573:. That is a possibility. 8543:Knowledge:Naming conflict 8092:except Greece and Cyprus. 7538: 7495: 7488: 7483: 7476:Knowledge:Naming conflict 6718:"People's peculiar logic" 6268:I like the idea of using 4844:Ϭ,ιϬ αγορεύειν βούλεϬ,αι? 4736:Miskin's moronic examples 4597:naming conflict talk page 4564:makes you think that the 4282:makes you think that the 3494:The rest links seems OK. 3484:http://www.macedonia.org/ 3390:20:32, 20 July 2005 (UTC) 3366:15:02, 19 July 2005 (UTC) 3349:19:25, 29 July 2005 (UTC) 3336:19:11, 29 July 2005 (UTC) 3320:18:42, 29 July 2005 (UTC) 3305:17:52, 29 July 2005 (UTC) 3253:15:41, 29 July 2005 (UTC) 3228:13:56, 18 July 2005 (UTC) 3159:13:56, 18 July 2005 (UTC) 3115:14:07, 18 July 2005 (UTC) 3094:12:56, 18 July 2005 (UTC) 3012:10:12, 17 July 2005 (UTC) 2949:02:17, 17 July 2005 (UTC) 2899:19:48, 16 July 2005 (UTC) 2861:19:21, 16 July 2005 (UTC) 2736:09:12, 16 July 2005 (UTC) 2707:02:17, 16 July 2005 (UTC) 2689:08:54, 15 July 2005 (UTC) 2679:02:08, 15 July 2005 (UTC) 2630:it does not mean anything 2611:20:08, 14 July 2005 (UTC) 2580:01:58, 16 July 2005 (UTC) 2571:06:45, 15 July 2005 (UTC) 2562:02:08, 15 July 2005 (UTC) 2526:19:54, 14 July 2005 (UTC) 2504:19:06, 14 July 2005 (UTC) 2232:10:45, 14 July 2005 (UTC) 2219:10:37, 14 July 2005 (UTC) 2167:10:15, 14 July 2005 (UTC) 2137:09:50, 14 July 2005 (UTC) 2073:09:13, 14 July 2005 (UTC) 2024:00:29, 14 July 2005 (UTC) 1992:19:54, 13 July 2005 (UTC) 1935:19:17, 13 July 2005 (UTC) 1907:17:45, 13 July 2005 (UTC) 1890:16:58, 13 July 2005 (UTC) 1876:15:31, 13 July 2005 (UTC) 1865:13:16, 13 July 2005 (UTC) 1856:06:54, 13 July 2005 (UTC) 1843:11:04, 12 July 2005 (UTC) 1816:23:00, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC) 1784:07:28, 11 July 2005 (UTC) 1759:22:00, 10 July 2005 (UTC) 1749:19:10, 10 July 2005 (UTC) 1715:11:33, 10 July 2005 (UTC) 1334:July 6, 2005 19:30 (UTC) 1305:30 June 2005 19:23 (UTC) 1298:30 June 2005 18:57 (UTC) 1255:30 June 2005 17:17 (UTC) 1172:June 29, 2005 21:03 (UTC) 1146:June 29, 2005 15:20 (UTC) 1120:June 28, 2005 19:31 (UTC) 1084:to refer to those people 1054:09:00, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC) 1012:22:40, Jun 25, 2005 (UTC) 982:Piss off, you sad twat.-- 949:30 June 2005 16:33 (UTC) 940:23:24, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC) 897:23:21, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC) 818:19:59, Jun 25, 2005 (UTC) 781:but rather say that they 755:29 June 2005 18:31 (UTC) 747:29 June 2005 18:08 (UTC) 739:29 June 2005 16:25 (UTC) 697:29 June 2005 13:06 (UTC) 690:29 June 2005 13:01 (UTC) 662:June 28, 2005 19:22 (UTC) 538:19:48, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC) 490:00:46, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC) 472:00:43, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC) 448:00:07, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC) 395:- only 2 edits in history 332:00:07, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC) 199:Macedonian Slavs (people) 171:19:25, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC) 155:15:03, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC) 13095:after long discussions. 11584:World Book Encyclopaedia 10219:distinguished company.-- 9905:becomea smelly bullshit. 9052:comments in his pocket. 7427:this encyclopedia - the 7193:This is a revelation of 5778:Famous Macedonian Slavs? 5472:Does your mother agree? 4754:the Bulgarians are Slavs 4485:used that terminology.-- 3750:explanation for my edits 3355:The Silence of the Lambs 3150:also change the article 3108:Damascene transformation 2777:Tetovo#Albanian_Minority 2622:and questioned by no one 2499:let you to EU/NATO"). -- 1642:9 July 2005 12:28 (UTC) 1634:8 July 2005 14:08 (UTC) 1623:8 July 2005 13:02 (UTC) 1615:7 July 2005 15:33 (UTC) 1608:7 July 2005 01:48 (UTC) 1371:6 July 2005 22:44 (UTC) 1312:30 June 2005 19:27 (UTC) 1274:), and reserve the name 1200:30 June 2005 12:09 (UTC) 1187:29 June 2005 21:12 (UTC) 1158:29 June 2005 16:35 (UTC) 1132:29 June 2005 00:17 (UTC) 1094:definitions of Palestine 1075:11:53, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC) 1028:22:55, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC) 979:3 July 2005 13:36 (UTC) 972:3 July 2005 13:08 (UTC) 965:3 July 2005 12:48 (UTC) 928:22:55, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC) 875:20:14, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC) 763:30 June 2005 12:13 (UTC) 728:29 June 2005 18:08 (UTC) 704:29 June 2005 15:31 (UTC) 650:18:15, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC) 633:16:22, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC) 606:14:04, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC) 586:21:24, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC) 570:21:03, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC) 559:20:19, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC) 522:10:06, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC) 481:00:45, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC) 163:15:29, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC) 141:12:54, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC) 126:12:35, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC) 111:12:28, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC) 12931:I think this is trully 12770:"Macedonian Bulgarians" 11645:Encyclopædia Britannica 11580:Hutchinson Encyclopedia 10731:is the NPOV way to go. 10067:don't know who are the 9185:seems to think thet by 9110:claimed. Which is it?-- 8559:Knowledge:Verifiability 7493:Macedonians (people) ‡ 7443:of them), governments ( 7388:Macedonians, however. 7129:Ok let's make a point, 6971:Dammit, you busted me. 6802:subsets of a larger set 6264:2 artists or musicians. 5516:(earlier today) and in 5389:Knowledge:Verifiability 5275:Knowledge:Verifiability 5242:Knowledge:Verifiability 4949:Greek Interior Ministry 4566:name of the nationality 4284:name of the nationality 4005:physical anthropologist 3243:and compare him to the 2977:File:Japaneseensign.png 2329:describe, not prescribe 2148:constitutionally merged 1670:9 July 2005 12:56 (UTC) 1470:7 July 2005 00:16 (UTC) 1414:6 July 2005 23:39 (UTC) 1382:6 July 2005 23:20 (UTC) 1359:6 July 2005 21:17 (UTC) 1342:6 July 2005 20:29 (UTC) 986:3 July 2005 14:23 (UTC) 12754:the Bulgarian language 11479:extremists) are NPOV. 11175:neglected this dispute 9048:, Theathenae also has 8416:A simple google test: 8266:That would be correct 7326:a RfC for the dispute 6613:. I reflects reality! 6337:" He also commented, “ 5708:of 1986, you may have 5510:to English translators 4793:(spelling?) named "I, 4501:in the first paragraph 4356:Chronographos, it was 3713:Macedonian (ethnicity) 3707:Macedonian (ethnicity) 3213:" He also commented, “ 2393:Russia is a Federation 13289:Amnesty International 11748:Republic of Macedonia 11691:. :-))))))))))))))) 11436:Republic of Macedonia 11119:guideline's talk page 10739:is NPOV. It must be, 10119:Republic of Macedonia 9958:Republic of Macedonia 9564:Human Rights Act 1998 8974:as a scholar, Matia. 8970:Too bad that you see 8939:Republic of Macedonia 8935:Republic of Macedonia 8621:Republic of Macedonia 8571:Republic of Macedonia 8168:Republic of Macedonia 7260:Republic of Macedonia 7141:Dictionary.com says: 6536:, I suggest you read 6243:OK, got to go now. -- 6009:else who would know. 5938:Republic of Macedonia 5503:(12 September 2005), 5057:. Wow it sounds like 4879:Republic of Macedonia 3982:Carleton Stevens Coon 3152:Republic of Macedonia 2743:own, personal opinion 2487:policy which is also 1981:Republic of Macedonia 1926:. I definitely agree 1832:Republic of Macedonia 1504:in terms of ethnicity 1270:(after their capital 1179:Ah, but the point is 1088:expressing a certain 42:of past discussions. 13101:http://statistics.gr 12628:! :-))))))))))))))) 12045:romantic nationalist 12016:romantic nationalist 10935:issues like this is. 9383:, after discussion. 9290:Conclusion:Mediation 9187:setting up straw men 7234:narrow-minded Greek 7223:narrow-minded Greek 6808:is a case in point. 6357:Macedonians, we are 6217:, now a director at 5909:Philip II of Macedon 5574:User talk:Theathenae 5352:foul play afoot (ie 4746:Macedonians, we are 4258:OK, you're right. -- 3630:So ... let’s start. 3498:Neutral Knowledge??? 3241:contemporary version 3004:Culture of Macedonia 2983:Culture of Macedonia 2646:consensually adopted 2638:consensually adopted 2472:consensually adopted 1796:Region of Macedonia? 1767:06:51, 11 July 2005 852:on any controversy. 798:problem, but rather 195:Macedonians (people) 10547:Why shouldn't he? 9828:UN Security Council 8470:Knowledge:Mediation 8144:conspiracy theories 7276:Macedonian speakers 7169:wiki-article says: 7011:In English please. 6542:Malice (legal term) 5919:Theodoros Zagorakis 5905:Alexander the Great 5535:Right now I am not 5311:say that there was 4860:Ancient Macedonians 4797:". Not only is it 4633:biogenetic research 3637:like German!! OK?? 1496:Ancient Macedonians 1374:Calling yourselves 1196:Me confused. :-) -- 1003:region of Macedonia 857:what each side says 848:. Knowledge takes ' 506:the inhabitants of 211:Outcome of the vote 12426:done really well. 11493:, was neutral; it 10987:User:Chronographos 10367:User:Chronographos 10000:I think that you, 9083:User:Chronographos 8629:Greek POV template 6582:The king is naked! 6203:Vlatko Stefanovski 5716:was held in 1986. 4651:is, let alone the 2763:people who do not 2642:basic human rights 2531:simple questions: 1113:is silly at all.) 387:Gorann Andjelkovic 180:Albanians (people) 13149:According to the 13110: 12794:Collective named 12740:thema of Bulgaria 12170: 12082: 11855:. They deniy the 11810: 11750:loathes the name 11615: 10622:original research 10514: 10465: 10318:Hooked on Phonics 10272: 10182: 10146: 10083: 10028: 9819:has activated you 9612:Get it Δεαθήναι? 9423: 9391: 9108:User:I_sterbinski 8962: 8505:First of all, it 8498: 8148:original research 7923:we could request 7549: 7548: 7330:, I've posted it 6538:Slander and libel 6274:Milcho Manchevski 6226:Goran Stefanovski 6181:Milcho Manchevski 5315:census in 1986. 4967:let's twist again 4799:very well written 4339:Asperger syndrome 4015:scientific racism 3449:organizations. ;) 2479:is subject to a " 307:EleftheriosKosmas 95: 94: 54: 53: 48:current talk page 13420: 13106: 13089:imaginary census 12937:Macedonian Slavs 12818:P.S. Bulgarians 12725:Bomac's bollocks 12166: 12107:fortress was in 12078: 11853:double standards 11819:Knowledge policy 11806: 11800:personal attacks 11756:double standards 11752:Macedonian Slavs 11731:double standards 11689:double standards 11611: 11214:You're right. -- 10729:Macedonian Slavs 10649:Macedonian Slavs 10626:Macedonian Slavs 10510: 10506:-anything etc). 10461: 10449:the missing link 10391:User:Fred Bauder 10268: 10178: 10142: 10079: 10063:I also bet that 10024: 9639:he is not racist 9419: 9387: 9125:STRAW MAN ALERT! 9087:Absolute Silence 8958: 8853:User:Fred Bauder 8494: 7782:double standards 7722:certain majority 7718:Northern Ireland 7708:you are Irish. 7500:Macedonian Slavs 7481: 7272:Macedonian Slavs 7256:Macedonian Slavs 7207:Macedonian Slavs 7167:Byzantine Empire 6901:Macedonian Slavs 6213:- former COO of 6006:Alexander (film) 5493:More lies by REX 4986:it looks like a 4791:Vera Mutafchieva 2980: 2978: 2695:178 UN documents 2443:(to be found at 1806:Macedonian Slavs 1648:Macedonian Slavs 1452:Aegean Macedonia 1284:Macedonian Slavs 1260:Macedonian Slavs 1226:Macedonian Slavs 1082:Macedonian Slavs 842:ethnic cleansing 779:Macedonian Slavs 625:of the state SFR 553:Macedonian Slavs 545:Macedonian Slavs 528:Macedonian Slavs 188:Germanic peoples 135:Macedonian Slavs 73: 56: 55: 33: 32: 26: 13428: 13427: 13423: 13422: 13421: 13419: 13418: 13417: 13291: 13171: 13151:Helsinki Report 13078: 13016: 13008: 12971: 12939:(also known as 12929: 12820:are descendents 12727: 12658:Slavic language 12597:Slavomacedonian 12587:Greek Macedonia 12583:Slavomacedonian 12193:And, maybe the 12101: 12060: 11845:User:Theathenae 11590:. If you check 11325:User:Theathenae 11229: 11141:instead of the 11066: 11014: 10991:washing machine 10847: 10753:Sashay, chantay 10613: 10500:Greek extremism 10478: 10451: 9834:(like the UK). 9536: 9489: 9292: 9272: 9245: 9237: 8257:for more info. 8059:Greek Macedonia 7557:, only what it 7291: 7242:? Just because 7228: 7092:time-travellers 6720: 6289: 6211:Mike Zafirovski 6186:Before the rain 6112:downright anger 5923:Traianos Dellas 5780: 5698: 5696:and round again 5661: 5496: 5371:And here's more 4990:, doesn't it? 4969: 4933: 4738: 4625: 4611: 4593: 4276: 4234:Macedonian Jews 4217: 4024:certain circles 3752: 3730: 3709: 3617: 3500: 3470: 3435:assimilated. ;) 3415:Greater Albania 3400: 3358: 3165:Macedonian Slav 3078:macedonian-slav 2985:article, where 2976: 2620:are still valid 2592:are still valid 2521:Macedonians".-- 2510:Greek Macedonia 2291:, only what it 2130:Grande Bretagne 1812:of Macedonia?-- 1798: 1704: 1602:a minority view 1446:the capital of 1047: 850:no sides at all 774: 510:, not just the 454: 262: 213: 100: 69: 30: 22: 21: 20: 12: 11: 5: 13426: 13416: 13415: 13414: 13413: 13412: 13411: 13410: 13409: 13399: 13395: 13385: 13384: 13383: 13382: 13381: 13380: 13366: 13365: 13364: 13363: 13352: 13351: 13347: 13346: 13345: 13344: 13335: 13334: 13333: 13332: 13323: 13322: 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12565: 12564: 12563: 12562: 12561: 12560: 12559: 12511: 12482: 12475: 12474: 12473: 12472: 12471: 12470: 12455: 12454: 12453: 12452: 12436: 12435: 12434: 12433: 12411: 12410: 12405: 12404: 12403: 12402: 12401: 12400: 12399: 12398: 12397: 12396: 12395: 12394: 12393: 12392: 12383: 12380: 12376: 12373: 12343: 12342: 12341: 12340: 12339: 12338: 12337: 12336: 12335: 12334: 12320: 12319: 12318: 12317: 12316: 12315: 12314: 12313: 12304: 12301: 12253: 12252: 12241: 12240: 12191: 12190: 12189: 12188: 12187: 12186: 12139: 12138: 12135: 12100: 12097: 12059: 12056: 12055: 12054: 12049:GrandfatherJoe 12028:European Union 12011: 12010: 12009: 12008: 12007: 12006: 12005: 12004: 11994: 11990: 11987: 11953: 11952: 11947:GrandfatherJoe 11942: 11941: 11940: 11939: 11929: 11913:GrandfatherJoe 11905: 11904: 11903: 11902: 11901: 11900: 11899: 11898: 11889: 11886: 11792: 11791: 11790: 11789: 11788: 11787: 11778: 11774: 11723: 11722: 11717:GrandfatherJoe 11635: 11634: 11633: 11632: 11586:and of course 11576: 11575: 11574: 11573: 11572: 11571: 11561: 11558: 11532: 11531: 11530: 11529: 11528: 11527: 11517: 11513: 11476: 11475: 11432: 11431: 11430: 11429: 11428: 11427: 11418: 11409: 11408: 11399: 11396: 11392: 11391: 11390: 11389: 11316:GrandfatherJoe 11304: 11303: 11258: 11257: 11254: 11251: 11244: 11243: 11240: 11228: 11225: 11224: 11223: 11222: 11221: 11209: 11208: 11188: 11187: 11176: 11065: 11062: 11061: 11060: 11059: 11058: 11049: 11013: 11010: 10983: 10982: 10956: 10955: 10954: 10953: 10952: 10951: 10950: 10949: 10940: 10936: 10925:GrandfatherJoe 10917: 10916: 10915: 10914: 10913: 10912: 10889: 10888: 10846: 10843: 10842: 10841: 10840: 10839: 10782:/More comments 10767: 10766: 10765: 10764: 10763: 10762: 10693:GrandfatherJoe 10689: 10688: 10687: 10686: 10685: 10684: 10674: 10671: 10659:you are not.-- 10635:GrandfatherJoe 10612: 10609: 10608: 10607: 10606: 10605: 10604: 10603: 10585: 10584: 10583: 10582: 10581: 10580: 10558: 10557: 10556: 10555: 10519: 10518: 10504:far right wing 10477: 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8207: 8206: 8196: 8172:GrandfatherJoe 8134: 8133: 8132: 8131: 8130: 8129: 8119: 8115: 8112: 8108: 8104: 8097: 8093: 8086: 8029: 8027: 8026: 8025: 8024: 8023: 8022: 7984:GrandfatherJoe 7976: 7975: 7974: 7973: 7972: 7971: 7970: 7969: 7952: 7951: 7950: 7949: 7948: 7947: 7946: 7945: 7914: 7913: 7912: 7911: 7910: 7909: 7858: 7857: 7856: 7855: 7854: 7853: 7852: 7851: 7850: 7849: 7841: 7835: 7831: 7786:GrandfatherJoe 7768: 7767: 7766: 7765: 7764: 7763: 7762: 7761: 7760: 7759: 7758: 7748: 7744: 7697:GrandfatherJoe 7687: 7686: 7676: 7672: 7654: 7653: 7652: 7651: 7650: 7649: 7631: 7604: 7547: 7546: 7544: 7542: 7536: 7535: 7532: 7529: 7525: 7524: 7521: 7518: 7514: 7513: 7510: 7507: 7503: 7502: 7501: 7499: 7494: 7492: 7487: 7424: 7423: 7422: 7421: 7420: 7419: 7418: 7417: 7416: 7415: 7414: 7413: 7404: 7400: 7372: 7365: 7361: 7358: 7355: 7351: 7342: 7341: 7290: 7287: 7227: 7218: 7191: 7190: 7163: 7162: 7135: 7134: 7127: 7126: 7125: 7124: 7123: 7122: 7112: 7111: 7110: 7088: 7074: 7060: 7043: 7042: 7041: 7023: 7022: 7021: 7009: 7000: 6999: 6998: 6980: 6979: 6978: 6949: 6948: 6947: 6946: 6945: 6944: 6943: 6942: 6941: 6940: 6922: 6921: 6920: 6919: 6918: 6917: 6916: 6915: 6870: 6869: 6855: 6854: 6848: 6847: 6846: 6845: 6816: 6815: 6804:. The region 6719: 6716: 6706: 6705: 6704: 6703: 6691: 6690: 6689: 6688: 6687: 6686: 6654: 6625: 6624: 6623: 6622: 6621: 6620: 6593: 6592: 6591: 6590: 6575: 6574: 6560: 6559: 6531: 6530: 6529: 6498: 6497: 6496: 6495: 6494: 6466: 6465: 6464: 6435: 6434: 6433: 6432: 6431: 6430: 6429: 6400: 6399: 6390: 6389: 6388: 6331: 6330: 6314: 6313: 6288: 6285: 6270:Boris Trajanov 6266: 6265: 6262: 6251: 6250: 6240: 6239: 6234:Boris Trajanov 6231: 6223: 6208: 6200: 6195:Petar Naumoski 6192: 6177: 6176: 6148: 6147: 6126: 6125: 6070: 6069: 6033: 6032: 6002: 6001: 5967: 5966: 5965: 5964: 5933: 5932: 5903:, I would say 5887: 5886: 5863: 5862: 5817: 5816: 5779: 5776: 5766: 5765: 5764: 5763: 5751: 5750: 5697: 5694: 5686:view). Shame! 5660: 5657: 5656: 5655: 5654: 5653: 5652: 5651: 5650: 5649: 5620:is Albanian. 5567: 5566: 5559:is Albanian. 5553: 5552: 5533: 5518:Talk:Arvanites 5495: 5490: 5480: 5479: 5436: 5435: 5385: 5384: 5341: 5340: 5339: 5338: 5327:say that I am 5271:Knowledge:NPOV 5262: 5261: 5238:Knowledge:NPOV 5219: 5218: 5179: 5178: 5177: 5176: 5152: 5151: 5138: 5137: 5136: 5102: 5101: 5100: 5099: 5090:You are a liar 5078: 5077: 5055:Greek speaking 5051:Greek Orthodox 5032: 5031: 5030: 4988:vicious circle 4976:Chubby Checker 4968: 4965: 4964: 4963: 4932: 4929: 4913: 4912: 4911: 4910: 4874: 4873: 4872: 4871: 4870: 4869: 4830: 4829: 4811: 4810: 4809: 4808: 4773: 4772: 4737: 4734: 4733: 4732: 4731: 4730: 4729: 4728: 4727: 4726: 4725: 4724: 4705: 4704: 4703: 4702: 4701: 4700: 4699: 4698: 4684: 4683: 4682: 4681: 4680: 4679: 4629:Talk:Macedonia 4624: 4621: 4610: 4607: 4592: 4589: 4513: 4512: 4511: 4510: 4493: 4492: 4479: 4478: 4477: 4476: 4475: 4448: 4447: 4414: 4412: 4411: 4410: 4409: 4396:User:FlavrSavr 4393: 4392: 4391: 4390: 4389: 4388: 4387: 4386: 4385: 4341:while at it. 4304: 4303: 4302: 4301: 4275: 4274:Miskin's edits 4272: 4270: 4268: 4267: 4266: 4265: 4216: 4213: 4189: 4188: 4187: 4186: 4185: 4184: 4183: 4182: 4181: 4180: 4179: 4178: 4121: 4098: 4097: 4096: 4095: 4080: 4079: 4068: 4067: 4066: 4065: 4064: 4063: 4048: 4047: 4046: 4045: 4020: 3976: 3975: 3970: 3969: 3968: 3967: 3966: 3965: 3964: 3963: 3962: 3961: 3942: 3941: 3940: 3939: 3938: 3937: 3936: 3935: 3934: 3933: 3932: 3931: 3917: 3916: 3915: 3914: 3913: 3912: 3911: 3910: 3909: 3908: 3907: 3906: 3892: 3891: 3890: 3889: 3888: 3887: 3886: 3885: 3884: 3883: 3882: 3881: 3867: 3866: 3865: 3864: 3863: 3862: 3861: 3860: 3834: 3833: 3832: 3831: 3830: 3829: 3820: 3819: 3818: 3817: 3795: 3794: 3777: 3776: 3767: 3756: 3751: 3748: 3729: 3726: 3708: 3705: 3704: 3703: 3702: 3701: 3700: 3699: 3669: 3662: 3659: 3616: 3613: 3612: 3611: 3610: 3609: 3608: 3607: 3598: 3581: 3572: 3571: 3569: 3566: 3560: 3559: 3540: 3499: 3496: 3493: 3492: 3489: 3487: 3486:<-- Deleted 3482: 3481: 3478: 3476: 3475:<-- Deleted 3469: 3468:External Links 3466: 3464: 3457: 3456: 3451: 3450: 3447: 3445: 3443: 3441: 3437: 3436: 3433: 3431: 3428: 3427: 3423: 3422: 3420: 3418: 3417:Great Bulgaria 3416: 3414: 3411: 3407: 3406: 3399: 3396: 3395: 3394: 3393: 3392: 3357: 3352: 3329: 3328: 3327: 3326: 3325: 3324: 3323: 3322: 3291: 3289: 3287: 3285: 3283: 3281: 3278: 3277: 3276: 3275: 3274: 3273: 3258: 3257: 3256: 3255: 3207: 3206: 3190: 3189: 3126: 3124: 3123: 3122: 3121: 3120: 3119: 3118: 3117: 3035: 3034: 3033: 3032: 3031: 3030: 3029: 3028: 3027: 3026: 3025: 3024: 3023: 3022: 3021: 3020: 3019: 3018: 3017: 3016: 3015: 3014: 2918: 2916: 2915: 2914: 2913: 2912: 2911: 2910: 2909: 2908: 2907: 2906: 2905: 2904: 2903: 2902: 2901: 2876: 2875: 2874: 2873: 2872: 2871: 2870: 2869: 2868: 2867: 2866: 2865: 2864: 2863: 2837: 2836: 2835: 2834: 2833: 2832: 2831: 2830: 2829: 2828: 2827: 2826: 2825: 2824: 2800: 2799: 2798: 2797: 2796: 2795: 2794: 2793: 2792: 2791: 2790: 2789: 2788: 2787: 2784: 2773:Macedonian NLA 2768: 2757: 2754: 2751: 2661: 2653: 2588: 2587: 2586: 2585: 2584: 2583: 2582: 2550: 2549: 2548: 2538: 2496: 2456: 2455: 2454: 2451: 2429: 2428: 2413: 2412: 2397: 2396: 2389: 2388: 2378: 2365: 2364: 2345: 2344: 2343: 2342: 2335: 2334: 2333: 2332: 2317: 2316: 2315: 2314: 2307: 2306: 2305: 2304: 2274: 2273: 2253: 2252: 2251: 2250: 2249: 2248: 2247: 2246: 2245: 2244: 2243: 2242: 2241: 2240: 2239: 2238: 2237: 2236: 2235: 2234: 2187: 2186: 2185: 2184: 2183: 2182: 2181: 2180: 2179: 2178: 2177: 2176: 2175: 2174: 2173: 2172: 2171: 2170: 2144:personal union 2088: 2087: 2086: 2085: 2084: 2083: 2082: 2081: 2080: 2079: 2078: 2077: 2076: 2075: 2035: 2034: 2033: 2032: 2031: 2030: 2029: 2028: 2027: 2026: 2003: 2002: 2001: 2000: 1999: 1998: 1997: 1996: 1995: 1994: 1964: 1963: 1962: 1961: 1960: 1959: 1958: 1957: 1942: 1941: 1940: 1939: 1938: 1937: 1914: 1913: 1912: 1911: 1910: 1909: 1895: 1894: 1893: 1892: 1879: 1878: 1846: 1845: 1797: 1794: 1793: 1792: 1791: 1790: 1789: 1788: 1787: 1786: 1703: 1693: 1692: 1691: 1690: 1689: 1688: 1687: 1686: 1685: 1684: 1683: 1682: 1681: 1680: 1679: 1678: 1677: 1676: 1675: 1674: 1673: 1672: 1671: 1587: 1586: 1585: 1584: 1583: 1582: 1581: 1580: 1579: 1578: 1577: 1576: 1575: 1574: 1550: 1549: 1548: 1547: 1546: 1545: 1544: 1543: 1542: 1541: 1540: 1539: 1524: 1480: 1479: 1478: 1477: 1476: 1475: 1474: 1473: 1472: 1471: 1422: 1421: 1420: 1419: 1418: 1417: 1416: 1415: 1388: 1387: 1386: 1385: 1384: 1383: 1361: 1360: 1344: 1343: 1320: 1319: 1318: 1317: 1316: 1315: 1314: 1313: 1264:Slavomakedónes 1237: 1236: 1229: 1222: 1204: 1203: 1202: 1201: 1191: 1190: 1189: 1188: 1174: 1173: 1162: 1161: 1160: 1159: 1148: 1147: 1136: 1135: 1134: 1133: 1122: 1121: 1098: 1097: 1077: 1076: 1046: 1035: 1034: 1033: 1032: 1031: 1030: 1029: 1016: 1015: 1014: 1013: 996: 995: 994: 993: 992: 991: 990: 989: 988: 987: 947:213.91.216.210 934: 933: 932: 931: 930: 929: 911: 910: 909: 908: 900: 893: 890: 887: 884: 881: 877: 876: 837: 831: 830: 820: 819: 809:Knowledge:NPOV 804: 803: 791: 790: 773: 772:Admin response 770: 769: 768: 767: 766: 765: 764: 733:Macadamia nuts 730: 729: 714: 713: 712: 711: 710: 709: 708: 707: 706: 705: 666: 665: 664: 663: 652: 651: 642:are ethnicity 640:Slavs of FYROM 635: 634: 621:are ethnicity 619:Slavs of FYROM 614: 613: 612: 611: 610: 609: 608: 607: 592: 591: 590: 589: 588: 587: 574: 573: 572: 571: 561: 560: 524: 523: 483: 482: 453: 450: 439: 438: 432: 426: 423:SpeedyGonsales 420: 414: 408: 405:194.106.167.14 402: 396: 390: 384: 378: 372: 366: 360: 354: 348: 323: 322: 316: 310: 304: 298: 292: 286: 280: 274: 261: 258: 254: 253: 252: 251: 237: 236: 235: 234: 212: 209: 184:Slavic peoples 165: 164: 145: 144: 143: 142: 128: 127: 115: 114: 113: 112: 99: 96: 93: 92: 87: 84: 79: 74: 67: 62: 52: 51: 34: 15: 9: 6: 4: 3: 2: 13425: 13408: 13405: 13400: 13396: 13393: 13392: 13391: 13390: 13389: 13388: 13387: 13386: 13379: 13376: 13372: 13371: 13370: 13369: 13368: 13367: 13362: 13359: 13356: 13355: 13354: 13353: 13349: 13348: 13343: 13340: 13339: 13337: 13336: 13331: 13328: 13327: 13325: 13324: 13319: 13316: 13315: 13313: 13312: 13311: 13309: 13305: 13301: 13300: 13297: 13286: 13285: 13282: 13277: 13276: 13273: 13269: 13257: 13254: 13251: 13250: 13249: 13248: 13247: 13246: 13243: 13240: 13239: 13234: 13233: 13227: 13226: 13224: 13219: 13218: 13212: 13211: 13208: 13207: 13206: 13200: 13196: 13194: 13190: 13188: 13184: 13183: 13182: 13176: 13173: 13172: 13164: 13161: 13156: 13152: 13148: 13147: 13138: 13135: 13132: 13130: 13127: 13126: 13123: 13120: 13119: 13118: 13117: 13116: 13115: 13114: 13113: 13109: 13105: 13102: 13098: 13094: 13090: 13086: 13082: 13076: 13070: 13069: 13066: 13061: 13059: 13051: 13046: 13045: 13042: 13038: 13032: 13031: 13028: 13024: 13020: 13011: 13005: 12995: 12992: 12988: 12987: 12986: 12985: 12984: 12983: 12980: 12976: 12962: 12959: 12954: 12953: 12952: 12951: 12950: 12949: 12946: 12942: 12938: 12934: 12914: 12911: 12906: 12905: 12904: 12903: 12902: 12901: 12900: 12899: 12898: 12897: 12890: 12887: 12882: 12881: 12880: 12879: 12878: 12877: 12876: 12875: 12872: 12868: 12855: 12852: 12847: 12843: 12839: 12838: 12837: 12836: 12835: 12834: 12833: 12832: 12831: 12829: 12825: 12821: 12816: 12809: 12805: 12801: 12797: 12793: 12792: 12791: 12790: 12787: 12779: 12775: 12771: 12767: 12763: 12759: 12755: 12751: 12747: 12743: 12741: 12737: 12733:Samuil -: --> 12732: 12731: 12730: 12720: 12717: 12713: 12712: 12711: 12710: 12707: 12700: 12697: 12693: 12692:Hellenisation 12690: 12689: 12688: 12687: 12684: 12680: 12679:hellenisation 12675: 12671: 12670: 12667: 12663: 12659: 12655: 12651: 12646: 12645: 12642: 12634: 12631: 12627: 12623: 12622: 12609: 12606: 12602: 12598: 12594: 12593: 12588: 12584: 12580: 12579: 12578: 12577: 12576: 12575: 12574: 12573: 12572: 12571: 12570: 12569: 12558: 12555: 12551: 12547: 12546: 12545: 12544: 12543: 12542: 12541: 12540: 12539: 12538: 12537: 12536: 12533: 12527: 12526: 12523: 12519: 12515: 12509: 12506: 12501: 12499: 12494: 12490: 12489: 12480: 12469: 12466: 12461: 12460: 12459: 12458: 12457: 12456: 12451: 12448: 12444: 12440: 12439: 12438: 12437: 12432: 12429: 12424: 12423: 12422: 12421: 12420: 12419: 12416: 12407: 12406: 12391: 12388: 12384: 12381: 12377: 12374: 12371: 12370: 12369: 12368: 12367: 12366: 12365: 12364: 12363: 12362: 12361: 12360: 12359: 12358: 12357: 12356: 12353: 12349: 12333: 12330: 12329: 12328: 12327: 12326: 12325: 12324: 12323: 12322: 12321: 12312: 12309: 12305: 12302: 12298: 12297: 12296: 12295: 12294: 12293: 12292: 12289: 12285: 12280: 12276: 12275: 12274: 12273: 12270: 12266: 12261: 12259: 12251: 12248: 12243: 12242: 12239: 12236: 12232: 12231: 12227: 12221: 12220: 12216: 12210: 12209: 12208: 12207: 12204: 12200: 12196: 12185: 12182: 12177: 12176: 12175: 12174: 12173: 12169: 12165: 12161: 12157: 12153: 12150: 12149: 12148: 12147: 12144: 12136: 12133: 12132: 12131: 12128: 12126: 12122: 12118: 12114: 12110: 12106: 12105:Tsar Samuil's 12096: 12095: 12092: 12086: 12085: 12081: 12077: 12073: 12069: 12065: 12053: 12050: 12046: 12042: 12037: 12033: 12029: 12025: 12024:Elgin Marbles 12021: 12017: 12013: 12012: 12003: 12000: 11995: 11991: 11988: 11985: 11984: 11983: 11982: 11981: 11980: 11979: 11978: 11977: 11976: 11973: 11968: 11962: 11961: 11958: 11951: 11948: 11944: 11943: 11938: 11935: 11930: 11927: 11922: 11921: 11920: 11919: 11918: 11917: 11914: 11910: 11897: 11894: 11890: 11887: 11883: 11882: 11881: 11880: 11879: 11876: 11871: 11870: 11869: 11868: 11867: 11866: 11863: 11858: 11854: 11851:seem to have 11850: 11846: 11841: 11840: 11837: 11832: 11831: 11828: 11824: 11820: 11814: 11813: 11809: 11805: 11801: 11797: 11786: 11783: 11779: 11775: 11771: 11770: 11769: 11768: 11767: 11766: 11765: 11764: 11761: 11757: 11753: 11749: 11744: 11740: 11736: 11732: 11728: 11721: 11718: 11714: 11713: 11712: 11711: 11708: 11704: 11698: 11697: 11694: 11690: 11686: 11682: 11678: 11673: 11672: 11669: 11665: 11660: 11659: 11656: 11652: 11648: 11646: 11640: 11631: 11628: 11623: 11622: 11621: 11620: 11619: 11618: 11614: 11610: 11605: 11604: 11601: 11597: 11593: 11589: 11585: 11581: 11570: 11567: 11562: 11559: 11555: 11554: 11553: 11552: 11551: 11548: 11543: 11542: 11541: 11540: 11537: 11526: 11523: 11518: 11514: 11511: 11510: 11509: 11508: 11507: 11504: 11500: 11496: 11492: 11488: 11487: 11486: 11485: 11482: 11474: 11471: 11467: 11463: 11459: 11455: 11451: 11450: 11449: 11448: 11445: 11441: 11437: 11426: 11423: 11419: 11415: 11414: 11413: 11412: 11411: 11410: 11407: 11404: 11400: 11397: 11394: 11393: 11386: 11385: 11384: 11383: 11382: 11381: 11378: 11372: 11370: 11364: 11361: 11356: 11355: 11352: 11346: 11344: 11338: 11337: 11334: 11330: 11326: 11321: 11320: 11317: 11313: 11309: 11302: 11299: 11295: 11294: 11293: 11292: 11289: 11285: 11280: 11279: 11276: 11271: 11270: 11267: 11262: 11255: 11252: 11249: 11248: 11247: 11241: 11238: 11237: 11236: 11233: 11220: 11217: 11213: 11212: 11211: 11210: 11207: 11204: 11199: 11198: 11197: 11196: 11193: 11185: 11181: 11177: 11174: 11173: 11172: 11169: 11165: 11163: 11159: 11156: 11152: 11151:minority view 11148: 11144: 11143:minority view 11140: 11139:majority view 11136: 11132: 11127: 11126: 11124: 11120: 11114: 11113: 11108: 11107: 11102: 11101: 11096: 11091: 11089: 11085: 11081: 11077: 11076: 11072: 11057: 11054: 11050: 11046: 11045: 11044: 11043: 11042: 11041: 11038: 11034: 11029: 11027: 11023: 11019: 11009: 11008: 11005: 11000: 10999: 10996: 10992: 10988: 10981: 10978: 10974: 10971: 10967: 10966: 10965: 10964: 10961: 10948: 10945: 10941: 10937: 10933: 10932: 10931: 10930: 10929: 10926: 10921: 10920: 10919: 10918: 10911: 10907: 10906: 10905: 10904: 10903: 10902: 10901: 10900: 10897: 10893: 10887: 10884: 10880: 10877: 10876: 10875: 10874: 10871: 10865: 10863: 10857: 10854: 10850: 10838: 10835: 10831: 10830: 10829: 10828: 10827: 10826: 10823: 10819: 10815: 10811: 10810: 10807: 10803: 10799: 10795: 10791: 10786: 10785: 10783: 10777: 10776: 10773: 10761: 10758: 10754: 10751: 10750: 10749: 10746: 10742: 10738: 10734: 10730: 10726: 10723: 10722: 10721: 10718: 10714: 10713: 10708: 10704: 10700: 10699: 10698: 10697: 10694: 10683: 10680: 10675: 10672: 10669: 10668: 10667: 10666: 10665: 10662: 10658: 10654: 10650: 10646: 10642: 10641: 10640: 10639: 10636: 10631: 10627: 10623: 10619: 10602: 10599: 10595: 10591: 10590: 10589: 10588: 10587: 10586: 10579: 10576: 10575:Chronographos 10572: 10571: 10570: 10567: 10562: 10561: 10560: 10559: 10554: 10553:Chronographos 10550: 10549:Ginger Rogers 10546: 10545: 10544: 10541: 10537: 10533: 10529: 10525: 10521: 10520: 10517: 10513: 10509: 10505: 10501: 10497: 10495: 10490: 10489: 10488: 10487: 10484: 10475: 10469: 10468: 10464: 10460: 10456: 10444: 10441: 10437: 10436: 10431: 10430: 10429: 10428: 10425: 10421: 10417: 10410: 10409:Chronographos 10406: 10402: 10401: 10400: 10399: 10396: 10392: 10387: 10379: 10376: 10372: 10368: 10364: 10360: 10359: 10358: 10355: 10354:Chronographos 10351: 10350: 10349: 10348: 10345: 10341: 10337: 10333: 10326: 10323: 10322:Chronographos 10319: 10315: 10312:Oh, that was 10311: 10310: 10309: 10308: 10305: 10301: 10294: 10291: 10290:Chronographos 10287: 10286: 10285: 10284: 10281: 10276: 10275: 10271: 10267: 10263: 10262:nazi scholars 10257: 10256: 10253: 10249: 10237: 10234: 10229: 10228: 10227: 10226: 10225: 10222: 10218: 10214: 10210: 10206: 10205: 10204: 10203: 10200: 10196: 10191: 10186: 10185: 10181: 10177: 10173: 10164: 10161: 10160:Chronographos 10157: 10154: 10153: 10152: 10151: 10150: 10149: 10145: 10141: 10137: 10133: 10128: 10127: 10124: 10120: 10116: 10105: 10102: 10101:Chronographos 10098: 10094: 10093: 10088: 10087: 10086: 10082: 10078: 10074: 10070: 10066: 10062: 10061: 10060: 10059: 10052: 10049: 10045: 10044: 10043: 10042: 10041: 10038: 10037:Chronographos 10034: 10033: 10032: 10031: 10027: 10023: 10019: 10015: 10011: 10007: 10003: 9992: 9989: 9984: 9981: 9980: 9979: 9978: 9977: 9974: 9973:Chronographos 9969: 9968: 9967: 9966: 9963: 9959: 9955: 9954:Slavic people 9951: 9947: 9943: 9939: 9935: 9931: 9930:knowledgeable 9920: 9917: 9912: 9907: 9903: 9902: 9901: 9900: 9899: 9896: 9892: 9888: 9884: 9880: 9876: 9872: 9868: 9864: 9863: 9862: 9859: 9858:Chronographos 9855: 9851: 9847: 9843: 9842: 9841: 9840: 9837: 9833: 9829: 9825: 9820: 9807: 9804: 9803:Chronographos 9799: 9793: 9790: 9785: 9784:far, far more 9780: 9779: 9778: 9777: 9776: 9775: 9774: 9771: 9767: 9764: 9760: 9756: 9755: 9754: 9753: 9752: 9751: 9740: 9737: 9732: 9729: 9728: 9727: 9726: 9725: 9724: 9723: 9720: 9719:Chronographos 9716: 9712: 9709: 9708: 9707: 9706: 9699: 9696: 9691: 9687: 9686: 9685: 9684: 9683: 9682: 9681: 9680: 9677: 9673: 9666: 9663: 9662:Chronographos 9659: 9655: 9654: 9647: 9644: 9640: 9636: 9635: 9634: 9633: 9632: 9629: 9625: 9621: 9620: 9619: 9618: 9615: 9611: 9601: 9598: 9594: 9590: 9589: 9588: 9587: 9586: 9583: 9579: 9575: 9574: 9573: 9572: 9569: 9565: 9561: 9554: 9551: 9549: 9546: 9544: 9541: 9540: 9539: 9534:Extra Reading 9531: 9530: 9527: 9523: 9514: 9511: 9506: 9503: 9502: 9501: 9500: 9499: 9498: 9495: 9484: 9483: 9480: 9476: 9467: 9464: 9459: 9458: 9457: 9456: 9455: 9454: 9451: 9445: 9444: 9441: 9436: 9432: 9427: 9426: 9422: 9418: 9414: 9409: 9408: 9405: 9401: 9395: 9394: 9390: 9386: 9382: 9373: 9370: 9365: 9361: 9360: 9359: 9356: 9352: 9348: 9347: 9346: 9345: 9342: 9338: 9334: 9329: 9327: 9323: 9319: 9311: 9308: 9307: 9306: 9303: 9301: 9297: 9287: 9285: 9281: 9277: 9267: 9260: 9257: 9254: 9253: 9252: 9250: 9240: 9226: 9223: 9219: 9215: 9211: 9210: 9205: 9204: 9203: 9200: 9196: 9192: 9188: 9184: 9181: 9175: 9172: 9168: 9164: 9163: 9162: 9159: 9155: 9150: 9149: 9148: 9147: 9146: 9143: 9139: 9138: 9137: 9136: 9133: 9129: 9126: 9116: 9113: 9109: 9105: 9104: 9103: 9100: 9096: 9092: 9088: 9084: 9080: 9079: 9078: 9077: 9058: 9055: 9051: 9047: 9043: 9042: 9041: 9038: 9034: 9033: 9032: 9031: 9030: 9029: 9028: 9027: 9026: 9023: 9019: 9016: 9012: 9008: 9007: 9002: 8999: 8993: 8990: 8986: 8982: 8981: 8980: 8977: 8973: 8969: 8968: 8967: 8966: 8965: 8961: 8957: 8953: 8949: 8948: 8947: 8944: 8940: 8936: 8932: 8928: 8924: 8920: 8916: 8915: 8914: 8913: 8906: 8903: 8899: 8895: 8891: 8888: 8885: 8881: 8877: 8874: 8871: 8867: 8863: 8862: 8861: 8858: 8854: 8850: 8846: 8842: 8839: 8835: 8834: 8833: 8830: 8826: 8825:raison d'être 8822: 8819: 8818: 8817: 8816: 8803: 8800: 8795: 8792: 8791: 8790: 8789: 8788: 8785: 8780: 8779: 8778: 8775: 8770: 8766: 8761: 8757: 8754: 8750: 8746: 8742: 8738: 8734: 8733: 8732: 8731: 8730: 8729: 8726: 8722: 8718: 8707: 8704: 8700: 8697: 8694: 8691: 8690: 8689: 8688: 8687: 8684: 8680: 8674: 8671: 8667: 8663: 8662: 8661: 8660: 8659: 8656: 8651: 8650:rapprochement 8647: 8646: 8641: 8640: 8637: 8634: 8630: 8626: 8622: 8619:Exactly, the 8618: 8617: 8616: 8615: 8612: 8608: 8598: 8595: 8592: 8589: 8584: 8583: 8582: 8581: 8580: 8579: 8576: 8572: 8568: 8564: 8560: 8553: 8550: 8546: 8544: 8537: 8536: 8535: 8528: 8523: 8520: 8516: 8512: 8508: 8504: 8503: 8502: 8501: 8497: 8493: 8489: 8485: 8478: 8475: 8471: 8467: 8466: 8465: 8464: 8461: 8457: 8453: 8449: 8429: 8426: 8421: 8419: 8415: 8411: 8410: 8409: 8408: 8407: 8404: 8400: 8399: 8398: 8397: 8396: 8395: 8394: 8393: 8392: 8391: 8390: 8389: 8386: 8375: 8372: 8371:Chronographos 8368: 8364: 8360: 8359: 8358: 8357: 8356: 8355: 8346: 8343: 8339: 8337: 8334: 8330: 8325: 8324: 8323: 8322: 8321: 8320: 8319: 8318: 8303: 8300: 8297: 8293: 8289: 8285: 8284: 8283: 8282: 8281: 8280: 8279: 8278: 8277: 8274: 8269: 8265: 8264: 8263: 8260: 8256: 8252: 8248: 8246: 8243: 8242: 8241: 8240: 8231: 8228: 8223: 8222: 8221: 8220: 8219: 8218: 8217: 8216: 8205: 8202: 8197: 8194: 8193: 8192: 8191: 8190: 8187: 8183: 8178: 8177: 8176: 8173: 8169: 8165: 8161: 8157: 8153: 8149: 8145: 8141: 8138: 8137: 8136: 8135: 8128: 8125: 8120: 8116: 8113: 8109: 8105: 8102: 8098: 8094: 8091: 8087: 8084: 8083: 8082: 8081: 8080: 8077: 8072: 8068: 8064: 8060: 8055: 8051: 8047: 8042: 8037: 8032: 8031: 8030: 8021: 8018: 8014: 8011: 8010: 8009: 8008: 8007: 8004: 8003:Chronographos 8000: 7996: 7991: 7990: 7989: 7988: 7985: 7981: 7968: 7965: 7960: 7959: 7958: 7957: 7956: 7955: 7954: 7953: 7944: 7941: 7937: 7936: 7935: 7934: 7933: 7930: 7926: 7922: 7918: 7917: 7916: 7915: 7908: 7905: 7900: 7896: 7895: 7894: 7893: 7892: 7889: 7888:Chronographos 7885: 7884: 7883: 7882: 7879: 7875: 7871: 7867: 7863: 7848: 7845: 7842: 7840: 7836: 7832: 7828: 7824: 7820: 7819: 7818: 7817: 7816: 7813: 7812:Chronographos 7809: 7805: 7801: 7796: 7792: 7791: 7790: 7787: 7783: 7778: 7774: 7769: 7757: 7754: 7749: 7745: 7741: 7740: 7739: 7738: 7737: 7734: 7733:Chronographos 7729: 7726: 7725: 7723: 7719: 7715: 7711: 7707: 7703: 7702: 7701: 7698: 7693: 7692: 7691: 7690: 7689: 7688: 7685: 7682: 7677: 7673: 7670: 7666: 7665: 7664: 7663: 7660: 7648: 7645: 7640: 7639: 7638: 7635: 7632: 7628: 7627: 7626: 7625: 7624: 7623: 7620: 7616: 7612: 7608: 7602: 7601: 7598: 7593: 7588: 7583: 7578: 7577: 7574: 7570: 7566: 7562: 7558: 7554: 7541: 7537: 7533: 7530: 7527: 7526: 7522: 7519: 7516: 7515: 7511: 7508: 7505: 7504: 7498: 7491: 7486: 7482: 7479: 7477: 7473: 7468: 7467: 7464: 7460: 7454: 7453: 7450: 7446: 7442: 7438: 7434: 7430: 7412: 7409: 7405: 7401: 7398: 7397: 7396: 7395: 7394: 7391: 7390:Chronographos 7387: 7386: 7381: 7380: 7379: 7376: 7373: 7370: 7366: 7362: 7359: 7356: 7352: 7348: 7347: 7346: 7345: 7344: 7343: 7340: 7337: 7333: 7329: 7325: 7321: 7320: 7319: 7318: 7315: 7310: 7306: 7301: 7297: 7286: 7285: 7282: 7277: 7273: 7269: 7265: 7261: 7257: 7253: 7249: 7245: 7241: 7237: 7233: 7226: 7222: 7217: 7216: 7213: 7208: 7204: 7200: 7199:vast majority 7196: 7189: 7186: 7181: 7180: 7179: 7178: 7175: 7172: 7168: 7161: 7157: 7152: 7151: 7150: 7149: 7148: 7144: 7140: 7132: 7131: 7130: 7121: 7118: 7113: 7109: 7106: 7102: 7097: 7093: 7089: 7087: 7084: 7080: 7075: 7073: 7070: 7066: 7061: 7059: 7056: 7052: 7048: 7044: 7040: 7037: 7033: 7032: 7031: 7028: 7024: 7019: 7018: 7017: 7014: 7010: 7008: 7005: 7001: 6997: 6994: 6990: 6989: 6988: 6985: 6981: 6977: 6974: 6970: 6969: 6968: 6965: 6961: 6957: 6956: 6955: 6954: 6953: 6952: 6951: 6950: 6939: 6936: 6932: 6931: 6930: 6929: 6928: 6927: 6926: 6925: 6924: 6923: 6914: 6911: 6906: 6902: 6898: 6897: 6896: 6895: 6894: 6893: 6892: 6891: 6890: 6889: 6886: 6881: 6876: 6868: 6865: 6864: 6863: 6860: 6853: 6850: 6849: 6843: 6842: 6841: 6840: 6839: 6838: 6833: 6832: 6829: 6825: 6820: 6814: 6811: 6810:Chronographos 6807: 6803: 6798: 6794: 6789: 6785: 6781: 6777: 6776: 6775: 6774: 6771: 6766: 6761: 6758: 6754: 6751:This was the 6750: 6745: 6742: 6738: 6734: 6729: 6726: 6715: 6714: 6711: 6702: 6699: 6695: 6694: 6693: 6692: 6685: 6682: 6681:Chronographos 6678: 6674: 6673: 6671: 6668: 6664: 6659: 6655: 6652: 6651: 6650: 6649: 6648: 6647: 6644: 6639: 6634: 6630: 6619: 6616: 6612: 6608: 6604: 6599: 6598: 6597: 6596: 6595: 6594: 6589: 6586: 6583: 6579: 6578: 6577: 6576: 6573: 6570: 6566: 6562: 6561: 6558: 6555: 6551: 6547: 6543: 6539: 6535: 6532: 6528: 6525: 6521: 6517: 6516: 6515: 6512: 6508: 6504: 6499: 6493: 6490: 6486: 6485:contributions 6482: 6481: 6480: 6479: 6478: 6475: 6471: 6467: 6463: 6460: 6456: 6455: 6454: 6451: 6447: 6443: 6439: 6436: 6428: 6425: 6424:Chronographos 6421: 6417: 6416: 6414: 6411: 6406: 6405: 6404: 6403: 6402: 6401: 6398: 6395: 6391: 6386: 6383: 6382:Chronographos 6379: 6376: 6375: 6374: 6373: 6372: 6370: 6367: 6362: 6361: 6356: 6355: 6348: 6344: 6342: 6341: 6336: 6328: 6327: 6326: 6324: 6320: 6311: 6310: 6309: 6307: 6305: 6298: 6296: 6292: 6284: 6283: 6280: 6275: 6271: 6263: 6260: 6259: 6258: 6256: 6249: 6246: 6242: 6241: 6238: 6235: 6232: 6230: 6228:- playwright 6227: 6224: 6222: 6220: 6216: 6212: 6209: 6207: 6204: 6201: 6199: 6196: 6193: 6191: 6188: 6187: 6182: 6179: 6178: 6173: 6169: 6168: 6167: 6166: 6163: 6158: 6153: 6146: 6143: 6142:Chronographos 6138: 6137: 6136: 6135: 6132: 6124: 6121: 6120:Chronographos 6117: 6113: 6109: 6108: 6103: 6098: 6097: 6091: 6090: 6089: 6088: 6085: 6080: 6076: 6068: 6065: 6064:Chronographos 6061: 6056: 6052: 6051: 6050: 6049: 6046: 6042: 6038: 6031: 6028: 6027:Chronographos 6023: 6018: 6017: 6016: 6015: 6012: 6007: 6000: 5997: 5996:Chronographos 5993: 5988: 5984: 5981: 5980: 5979: 5978: 5975: 5971: 5963: 5960: 5959:Chronographos 5955: 5954: 5953: 5952: 5951: 5950: 5947: 5943: 5939: 5931: 5928: 5927:Chronographos 5924: 5920: 5917: 5914: 5910: 5906: 5902: 5898: 5897: 5896: 5895: 5892: 5885: 5882: 5881:Chronographos 5878: 5877: 5876: 5875: 5872: 5868: 5861: 5858: 5857:Chronographos 5854: 5850: 5846: 5841: 5840: 5839: 5838: 5835: 5831: 5827: 5823: 5815: 5812: 5808: 5807: 5806: 5805: 5802: 5798: 5794: 5790: 5786: 5775: 5774: 5771: 5762: 5759: 5755: 5754: 5753: 5752: 5749: 5746: 5742: 5737: 5732: 5729:is trolling, 5728: 5725: 5724: 5723: 5722: 5719: 5715: 5711: 5707: 5704:. As for the 5703: 5693: 5692: 5689: 5685: 5681: 5677: 5676:Chronographos 5673: 5669: 5668:Chronographos 5665: 5648: 5645: 5644:Chronographos 5641: 5637: 5636: 5635: 5632: 5628: 5627: 5626: 5623: 5622:Chronographos 5619: 5616: 5615: 5614: 5611: 5607: 5606: 5605: 5604: 5601: 5597: 5592: 5591: 5588: 5583: 5582: 5579: 5575: 5571: 5565: 5562: 5561:Chronographos 5558: 5555: 5554: 5551: 5548: 5543: 5538: 5534: 5531: 5527: 5523: 5519: 5515: 5514: 5513:including REX 5511: 5509: 5502: 5498: 5497: 5494: 5489: 5488: 5485: 5478: 5475: 5474:Chronographos 5471: 5470: 5469: 5468: 5465: 5461: 5455: 5454: 5451: 5446: 5441: 5433: 5430: 5429:Chronographos 5426: 5422: 5418: 5414: 5410: 5409: 5404: 5401:Oh, really? 5400: 5399: 5398: 5397: 5394: 5390: 5383: 5380: 5379:Chronographos 5376: 5372: 5368: 5365: 5364: 5363: 5362: 5359: 5355: 5350: 5346: 5337: 5334: 5333:Chronographos 5330: 5326: 5322: 5318: 5314: 5310: 5306: 5302: 5298: 5295: 5294: 5293: 5292: 5291: 5290: 5287: 5283: 5280: 5276: 5272: 5268: 5260: 5257: 5253: 5252: 5251: 5250: 5247: 5243: 5239: 5235: 5231: 5227: 5223: 5217: 5214: 5210: 5206: 5202: 5201: 5200: 5199: 5196: 5192: 5188: 5187:Chronographos 5184: 5181:That's right 5175: 5171: 5170: 5168: 5164: 5163: 5162: 5161: 5158: 5150: 5147: 5143: 5139: 5135: 5132: 5131:Chronographos 5128: 5124: 5120: 5119: 5118: 5117: 5116: 5115: 5112: 5108: 5098: 5095: 5091: 5087: 5082: 5081: 5080: 5079: 5076: 5073: 5069: 5064: 5060: 5056: 5052: 5048: 5044: 5040: 5036: 5033: 5029: 5026: 5025:Chronographos 5022: 5018: 5014: 5010: 5006: 5005: 5004: 5003: 5002: 5001: 4998: 4995: 4991: 4989: 4985: 4984:Chronographos 4981: 4977: 4973: 4962: 4959: 4958:Chronographos 4955: 4950: 4945: 4944: 4943: 4942: 4939: 4928: 4927: 4924: 4918: 4917: 4908: 4905: 4901: 4900: 4899: 4898: 4897: 4896: 4893: 4887: 4885: 4880: 4868: 4865: 4864:Chronographos 4861: 4857: 4853: 4849: 4845: 4841: 4840: 4838: 4834: 4833: 4832: 4831: 4828: 4825: 4824:Chronographos 4821: 4820: 4819: 4817: 4807: 4804: 4803:Chronographos 4800: 4796: 4792: 4787: 4783: 4782: 4780: 4775: 4774: 4771: 4768: 4763: 4762: 4761: 4759: 4755: 4751: 4749: 4745: 4723: 4720: 4715: 4714: 4713: 4712: 4711: 4710: 4709: 4708: 4707: 4706: 4696: 4692: 4691: 4690: 4689: 4688: 4687: 4686: 4685: 4678: 4675: 4674:Chronographos 4671: 4670: 4669: 4666: 4665:Chronographos 4662: 4658: 4654: 4650: 4646: 4645: 4644: 4643: 4642: 4641: 4638: 4634: 4630: 4620: 4619: 4616: 4606: 4605: 4602: 4598: 4588: 4587: 4584: 4580: 4574: 4573: 4571: 4565: 4561: 4560:Miskin, what 4557: 4556: 4553: 4547: 4546: 4542: 4541: 4538: 4533: 4532: 4528: 4527: 4524: 4518: 4517: 4509: 4506: 4502: 4497: 4496: 4495: 4494: 4491: 4488: 4484: 4480: 4474: 4471: 4466: 4462: 4457: 4454: 4453: 4452: 4451: 4450: 4449: 4446: 4443: 4439: 4435: 4431: 4427: 4426: 4425: 4424: 4421: 4417: 4408: 4405: 4401: 4397: 4394: 4384: 4381: 4380:Chronographos 4377: 4373: 4372: 4371: 4368: 4363: 4359: 4355: 4354: 4351: 4347: 4344: 4343:Chronographos 4340: 4336: 4332: 4328: 4324: 4321: 4320: 4319: 4318: 4317: 4316: 4315: 4314: 4313: 4312: 4309: 4299: 4295: 4294: 4293: 4292: 4291: 4289: 4285: 4281: 4278:Miskin, what 4271: 4264: 4261: 4257: 4256: 4255: 4252: 4248: 4247: 4246: 4245: 4242: 4238: 4235: 4230: 4229: 4226: 4222: 4212: 4211: 4208: 4202: 4201: 4198: 4194: 4177: 4174: 4170: 4166: 4162: 4157: 4156: 4155: 4152: 4151:Chronographos 4147: 4143: 4142: 4141: 4138: 4134: 4129: 4126: 4122: 4120: 4117: 4113: 4112: 4111: 4108: 4104: 4103: 4102: 4101: 4100: 4099: 4094: 4091: 4087: 4084: 4083: 4082: 4081: 4078: 4075: 4070: 4069: 4062: 4059: 4054: 4053: 4052: 4051: 4050: 4049: 4044: 4041: 4037: 4033: 4029: 4025: 4021: 4018: 4016: 4010: 4006: 4003: 3999: 3998: 3994: 3990: 3987: 3983: 3980: 3979: 3978: 3977: 3972: 3971: 3960: 3957: 3952: 3951: 3950: 3949: 3948: 3947: 3946: 3945: 3944: 3943: 3929: 3928: 3927: 3926: 3925: 3924: 3923: 3922: 3921: 3920: 3919: 3918: 3904: 3903: 3902: 3901: 3900: 3899: 3898: 3897: 3896: 3895: 3894: 3893: 3879: 3878: 3877: 3876: 3875: 3874: 3873: 3872: 3871: 3870: 3869: 3868: 3858: 3854: 3850: 3846: 3842: 3841: 3840: 3839: 3838: 3837: 3836: 3835: 3826: 3825: 3824: 3823: 3822: 3821: 3815: 3810: 3806: 3802: 3799: 3798: 3797: 3796: 3792: 3787: 3783: 3782:United Nation 3779: 3778: 3775: 3772: 3768: 3765: 3761: 3757: 3754: 3753: 3747: 3746: 3743: 3739: 3735: 3725: 3724: 3721: 3718: 3714: 3698: 3695: 3691: 3687: 3686: 3685: 3684: 3683: 3682: 3681: 3678: 3674: 3671: 3667: 3664: 3660: 3657: 3654: 3650: 3646: 3642: 3638: 3634: 3631: 3628: 3624: 3620: 3606: 3603: 3599: 3596: 3595: 3594: 3593: 3592: 3591: 3590: 3587: 3584: 3580: 3579: 3576: 3570: 3567: 3564: 3558: 3555: 3551: 3547: 3544: 3539: 3538: 3534: 3530: 3526: 3522: 3519: 3515: 3511: 3507: 3503: 3495: 3491: 3485: 3480: 3474: 3465: 3462: 3458: 3452: 3438: 3429: 3424: 3408: 3404: 3391: 3388: 3387:Chronographos 3384: 3380: 3376: 3372: 3371: 3370: 3369: 3368: 3367: 3364: 3363:Chronographos 3356: 3351: 3350: 3347: 3343: 3338: 3337: 3334: 3321: 3318: 3317:Chronographos 3314: 3313: 3308: 3307: 3306: 3303: 3298: 3297: 3296: 3295: 3294: 3293: 3292: 3286:For example: 3272: 3269: 3264: 3263: 3262: 3261: 3260: 3259: 3254: 3251: 3246: 3245:classic model 3242: 3237: 3234: 3233: 3232: 3231: 3230: 3229: 3226: 3220: 3218: 3217: 3212: 3204: 3203: 3202: 3200: 3196: 3187: 3186: 3185: 3183: 3181: 3174: 3172: 3168: 3166: 3161: 3160: 3157: 3153: 3148: 3143: 3139: 3134: 3133: 3130: 3116: 3113: 3112:Chronographos 3109: 3104: 3103: 3102: 3101: 3100: 3099: 3098: 3097: 3096: 3095: 3092: 3089: 3085: 3081: 3079: 3072: 3070: 3065: 3063: 3059: 3055: 3050: 3049: 3047: 3043: 3013: 3010: 3009:Chronographos 3005: 3001: 2996: 2992: 2988: 2984: 2979: 2972: 2967: 2963: 2959: 2954: 2953: 2952: 2951: 2950: 2947: 2942: 2937: 2936: 2935: 2934: 2933: 2932: 2931: 2930: 2929: 2928: 2927: 2926: 2925: 2924: 2923: 2922: 2921: 2920: 2919: 2900: 2897: 2896:Chronographos 2892: 2891: 2890: 2889: 2888: 2887: 2886: 2885: 2884: 2883: 2882: 2881: 2880: 2879: 2878: 2877: 2862: 2859: 2855: 2851: 2850: 2849: 2848: 2847: 2846: 2845: 2844: 2843: 2842: 2841: 2840: 2839: 2838: 2822: 2818: 2814: 2813: 2812: 2811: 2810: 2809: 2808: 2807: 2806: 2805: 2804: 2803: 2802: 2801: 2785: 2782: 2778: 2774: 2769: 2766: 2762: 2758: 2755: 2752: 2750: 2744: 2739: 2738: 2737: 2734: 2733:Chronographos 2730: 2726: 2722: 2718: 2714: 2710: 2709: 2708: 2705: 2701: 2696: 2692: 2691: 2690: 2687: 2686:Chronographos 2682: 2681: 2680: 2677: 2673: 2669: 2666: 2662: 2659: 2654: 2651: 2647: 2643: 2639: 2635: 2631: 2627: 2623: 2619: 2614: 2613: 2612: 2609: 2608:Chronographos 2605: 2601: 2597: 2593: 2589: 2581: 2578: 2574: 2573: 2572: 2569: 2565: 2564: 2563: 2560: 2556: 2551: 2547: 2543: 2539: 2537: 2533: 2532: 2529: 2528: 2527: 2524: 2519: 2515: 2511: 2507: 2506: 2505: 2502: 2497: 2494: 2490: 2486: 2482: 2478: 2473: 2469: 2465: 2461: 2457: 2452: 2449: 2448: 2446: 2442: 2438: 2434: 2431: 2430: 2426: 2422: 2418: 2415: 2414: 2410: 2406: 2402: 2399: 2398: 2394: 2391: 2390: 2386: 2382: 2379: 2375: 2371: 2367: 2366: 2362: 2358: 2354: 2350: 2347: 2346: 2339: 2338: 2337: 2336: 2330: 2326: 2321: 2320: 2319: 2318: 2311: 2310: 2309: 2308: 2302: 2298: 2294: 2290: 2286: 2282: 2278: 2277: 2276: 2275: 2271: 2266: 2261: 2258: 2257: 2256: 2233: 2230: 2229:Chronographos 2226: 2222: 2221: 2220: 2217: 2213: 2209: 2205: 2204: 2203: 2202: 2201: 2200: 2199: 2198: 2197: 2196: 2195: 2194: 2193: 2192: 2191: 2190: 2189: 2188: 2168: 2165: 2164:Chronographos 2161: 2157: 2153: 2149: 2145: 2140: 2139: 2138: 2135: 2131: 2127: 2123: 2119: 2115: 2111: 2107: 2104: 2103: 2102: 2101: 2100: 2099: 2098: 2097: 2096: 2095: 2094: 2093: 2092: 2091: 2090: 2089: 2074: 2071: 2070:Chronographos 2067: 2062: 2058: 2054: 2049: 2048: 2047: 2046: 2045: 2044: 2043: 2042: 2041: 2040: 2039: 2038: 2037: 2036: 2025: 2022: 2018: 2013: 2012: 2011: 2010: 2009: 2008: 2007: 2006: 2005: 2004: 1993: 1990: 1989:Chronographos 1986: 1982: 1978: 1974: 1973: 1972: 1971: 1970: 1969: 1968: 1967: 1966: 1965: 1954: 1950: 1949: 1948: 1947: 1946: 1945: 1944: 1943: 1936: 1933: 1929: 1925: 1920: 1919: 1918: 1917: 1916: 1915: 1908: 1905: 1904:Chronographos 1901: 1900: 1899: 1898: 1897: 1896: 1891: 1888: 1883: 1882: 1881: 1880: 1877: 1874: 1873:Chronographos 1869: 1868: 1867: 1866: 1863: 1858: 1857: 1854: 1849: 1844: 1841: 1840:Chronographos 1837: 1833: 1828: 1824: 1819: 1818: 1817: 1815: 1811: 1807: 1803: 1785: 1782: 1778: 1774: 1769: 1768: 1766: 1762: 1761: 1760: 1757: 1752: 1751: 1750: 1747: 1743: 1739: 1738: 1733: 1729: 1725: 1724: 1719: 1718: 1717: 1716: 1713: 1708: 1701: 1697: 1669: 1665: 1661: 1657: 1653: 1649: 1644: 1643: 1641: 1636: 1635: 1633: 1629: 1625: 1624: 1622: 1617: 1616: 1614: 1610: 1609: 1607: 1603: 1599: 1598: 1597: 1596: 1595: 1594: 1593: 1592: 1591: 1590: 1589: 1588: 1573: 1568: 1564: 1563: 1562: 1561: 1560: 1559: 1558: 1557: 1556: 1555: 1554: 1553: 1552: 1551: 1537: 1533: 1529: 1525: 1523:as Yugoslavs? 1521: 1517: 1513: 1509: 1505: 1501: 1497: 1492: 1491: 1490: 1489: 1488: 1487: 1486: 1485: 1484: 1483: 1482: 1481: 1469: 1465: 1464:Mount Olympus 1461: 1457: 1453: 1449: 1445: 1440: 1436: 1432: 1431: 1430: 1429: 1428: 1427: 1426: 1425: 1424: 1423: 1413: 1409: 1405: 1401: 1396: 1395: 1394: 1393: 1392: 1391: 1390: 1389: 1381: 1377: 1373: 1372: 1370: 1365: 1364: 1363: 1362: 1358: 1354: 1350: 1346: 1345: 1341: 1337: 1336: 1335: 1333: 1329: 1325: 1311: 1307: 1306: 1304: 1300: 1299: 1297: 1293: 1289: 1285: 1281: 1277: 1273: 1269: 1265: 1261: 1257: 1256: 1254: 1249: 1248: 1247: 1245: 1242: 1234: 1230: 1227: 1223: 1220: 1216: 1215: 1214: 1211: 1209: 1199: 1195: 1194: 1193: 1192: 1186: 1182: 1178: 1177: 1176: 1175: 1171: 1168: 1164: 1163: 1157: 1152: 1151: 1150: 1149: 1145: 1142: 1138: 1137: 1131: 1126: 1125: 1124: 1123: 1119: 1116: 1112: 1108: 1104: 1100: 1099: 1095: 1091: 1090:point of view 1087: 1083: 1079: 1078: 1074: 1070: 1066: 1062: 1057: 1056: 1055: 1053: 1044: 1040: 1027: 1022: 1021: 1020: 1019: 1018: 1017: 1011: 1008: 1004: 1000: 999: 998: 997: 985: 981: 980: 978: 974: 973: 971: 967: 966: 964: 960: 956: 951: 950: 948: 943: 942: 941: 939: 927: 922: 917: 916: 915: 914: 913: 912: 905: 904: 903: 902: 901: 898: 896: 874: 869: 868: 867: 865: 862: 858: 853: 851: 847: 843: 838: 835: 829: 825: 824: 823: 817: 814: 810: 806: 805: 801: 797: 793: 792: 788: 785:or that they 784: 780: 776: 775: 762: 757: 756: 754: 749: 748: 746: 742: 741: 740: 738: 734: 727: 723: 722: 721: 719: 703: 699: 698: 696: 692: 691: 689: 685: 680: 676: 672: 671: 670: 669: 668: 667: 661: 656: 655: 654: 653: 649: 645: 641: 637: 636: 632: 628: 624: 620: 616: 615: 605: 600: 599: 598: 597: 596: 595: 594: 593: 585: 580: 579: 578: 577: 576: 575: 569: 565: 564: 563: 562: 558: 554: 550: 546: 541: 540: 539: 537: 533: 529: 521: 517: 513: 509: 505: 501: 497: 493: 492: 491: 489: 480: 475: 474: 473: 471: 466: 461: 460: 449: 447: 443: 436: 433: 430: 427: 424: 421: 418: 415: 412: 409: 406: 403: 400: 397: 394: 391: 388: 385: 382: 379: 376: 373: 370: 367: 364: 361: 358: 355: 352: 349: 346: 343: 342: 341: 340: 336: 333: 331: 327: 320: 317: 314: 311: 308: 305: 302: 299: 296: 293: 290: 287: 284: 281: 278: 275: 272: 269: 268: 267: 266: 257: 249: 245: 244: 242: 239: 238: 232: 228: 227: 225: 222: 221: 220: 218: 208: 207: 204: 200: 196: 191: 189: 185: 181: 176: 172: 170: 162: 158: 157: 156: 154: 150: 140: 136: 132: 131: 130: 129: 125: 121: 117: 116: 110: 107: 106: 105: 104: 103: 91: 88: 85: 83: 80: 78: 75: 72: 68: 66: 63: 61: 58: 57: 49: 45: 41: 40: 35: 28: 27: 19: 13302: 13292: 13278: 13265: 13203: 13180: 13154: 13088: 13084: 13080: 13079: 13074: 13057: 13054: 13047: 13037:Eric Clapton 13033: 13022: 13017: 13009: 12975:edit history 12972: 12940: 12936: 12930: 12869:some day... 12866: 12864: 12827: 12823: 12819: 12817: 12813: 12807: 12803: 12799: 12782: 12777: 12773: 12769: 12765: 12761: 12757: 12753: 12749: 12745: 12739: 12735: 12728: 12703: 12691: 12678: 12676: 12672: 12661: 12657: 12647: 12637: 12625: 12600: 12590: 12549: 12528: 12513: 12503: 12502: 12496: 12495: 12491: 12486: 12483: 12476: 12412: 12344: 12331: 12262: 12254: 12225: 12223: 12212: 12198: 12192: 12156:Thessaloniki 12151: 12140: 12129: 12124: 12116: 12104: 12102: 12087: 12061: 12040: 12019: 11966: 11963: 11954: 11925: 11908: 11906: 11842: 11833: 11815: 11793: 11751: 11738: 11724: 11702: 11699: 11674: 11664:WebsterWorld 11661: 11642: 11636: 11606: 11577: 11533: 11498: 11494: 11490: 11477: 11465: 11461: 11457: 11453: 11433: 11373: 11368: 11365: 11357: 11347: 11339: 11322: 11311: 11307: 11305: 11283: 11281: 11272: 11263: 11259: 11245: 11234: 11230: 11189: 11183: 11180:bogdangiusca 11170: 11166: 11161: 11157: 11154: 11150: 11146: 11142: 11138: 11134: 11128: 11116: 11110: 11104: 11098: 11095:specifically 11094: 11092: 11087: 11078: 11074: 11070: 11067: 11032: 11030: 11025: 11021: 11017: 11015: 11001: 10984: 10969: 10957: 10890: 10866: 10861: 10858: 10852: 10851: 10848: 10813: 10812: 10797: 10787: 10779: 10778: 10768: 10736: 10728: 10710: 10706: 10702: 10690: 10656: 10652: 10648: 10629: 10625: 10617: 10614: 10611:Party's over 10593: 10503: 10499: 10491: 10479: 10473: 10454: 10452: 10433: 10419: 10413: 10404: 10384: 10329: 10313: 10297: 10277: 10261: 10258: 10247: 10244: 10216: 10194: 10187: 10169: 10131: 10129: 10112: 10090: 10068: 10017: 10009: 10005: 9999: 9941: 9937: 9929: 9927: 9886: 9882: 9873:economy? Or 9871:Celtic Tiger 9824:Celtic Tiger 9816: 9783: 9689: 9669: 9638: 9623: 9609: 9608: 9577: 9557: 9537: 9519: 9490: 9472: 9446: 9430: 9428: 9410: 9396: 9378: 9363: 9336: 9330: 9315: 9304: 9293: 9280:this section 9273: 9265: 9246: 9238: 9217: 9216:an Albanian 9213: 9208: 9207: 9153: 9123: 9090: 9086: 9049: 9004: 8984: 8918: 8897: 8893: 8886: 8872: 8848: 8840: 8838:Bêtes noires 8837: 8824: 8814: 8812: 8744: 8716: 8714: 8649: 8644: 8643: 8606: 8603: 8587: 8556: 8540: 8533: 8525: 8518: 8514: 8513:arguments: " 8510: 8506: 8487: 8484:agreed facts 8481: 8444: 8382: 8366: 8328: 8267: 8250: 8244: 8181: 8163: 8159: 8155: 8100: 8089: 8070: 8067:Thessaloniki 8054:Saudi Arabia 8049: 8046:ethnic group 8045: 8040: 8035: 8028: 8012: 7994: 7977: 7920: 7919:Either that 7898: 7873: 7869: 7865: 7861: 7859: 7826: 7822: 7776: 7721: 7705: 7668: 7655: 7606: 7603: 7591: 7586: 7579: 7568: 7567:prescriptive 7564: 7560: 7556: 7552: 7550: 7539: 7496: 7489: 7484: 7471: 7469: 7458: 7455: 7444: 7440: 7436: 7432: 7425: 7384: 7383: 7368: 7323: 7308: 7304: 7299: 7292: 7271: 7267: 7263: 7255: 7239: 7229: 7206: 7202: 7198: 7192: 7170: 7164: 7159: 7154: 7146: 7142: 7137: 7136: 7128: 7094:who went to 7078: 7064: 7051:Δες και αυτό 6900: 6879: 6874: 6871: 6866: 6856: 6851: 6835: 6834: 6823: 6817: 6792: 6764: 6762: 6756: 6752: 6747: 6741:prescriptive 6740: 6736: 6732: 6730: 6725:Goce Delchev 6721: 6707: 6661: 6657: 6637: 6632: 6628: 6626: 6610: 6606: 6602: 6581: 6520:contributing 6519: 6484: 6469: 6359: 6358: 6353: 6352: 6349: 6345: 6339: 6338: 6334: 6332: 6322: 6317: 6315: 6303: 6301: 6299: 6294: 6293: 6290: 6273: 6267: 6252: 6184: 6171: 6156: 6151: 6149: 6127: 6115: 6111: 6106: 6105: 6095: 6094: 6074: 6071: 6059: 6054: 6040: 6036: 6034: 6021: 6003: 5986: 5970:Chronographe 5968: 5941: 5934: 5900: 5888: 5867:Chronographe 5864: 5844: 5818: 5781: 5767: 5740: 5713: 5710:forgotten it 5705: 5701: 5699: 5662: 5593: 5584: 5568: 5541: 5529: 5525: 5521: 5512: 5507: 5504: 5500: 5499:REX's quote 5492: 5481: 5459: 5456: 5444: 5439: 5437: 5417:there's more 5412: 5407: 5406: 5386: 5374: 5367:Indeed I can 5353: 5348: 5344: 5342: 5328: 5324: 5320: 5316: 5312: 5308: 5300: 5263: 5220: 5204: 5180: 5153: 5122: 5103: 5089: 5086:not even one 5085: 5008: 4993: 4992: 4971: 4970: 4934: 4919: 4915: 4914: 4888: 4875: 4851: 4843: 4812: 4798: 4795:Anna Comnena 4790: 4753: 4747: 4743: 4741: 4739: 4660: 4657:T lymphocyte 4632: 4626: 4612: 4594: 4578: 4575: 4569: 4567: 4563: 4559: 4558: 4548: 4544: 4543: 4534: 4530: 4529: 4519: 4515: 4514: 4500: 4482: 4464: 4459: 4437: 4429: 4413: 4399: 4374:It was also 4349: 4348:(You should 4330: 4305: 4297: 4287: 4283: 4279: 4277: 4269: 4233: 4231: 4218: 4203: 4192: 4190: 4168: 4164: 4160: 4145: 4131: 4123: 4085: 4031: 4027: 4012: 3995: 3981: 3852: 3848: 3844: 3804: 3800: 3790: 3785: 3763: 3760:contemporary 3759: 3731: 3710: 3679: 3675: 3672: 3668: 3665: 3661: 3658: 3655: 3651: 3647: 3643: 3639: 3635: 3632: 3629: 3625: 3621: 3618: 3588: 3585: 3582: 3575:I sterbinski 3573: 3568: 3565: 3561: 3556: 3552: 3548: 3545: 3541: 3535: 3531: 3527: 3523: 3520: 3516: 3512: 3508: 3504: 3501: 3471: 3463: 3459: 3453: 3439: 3430: 3425: 3409: 3401: 3382: 3378: 3374: 3359: 3339: 3330: 3311: 3310: 3279: 3221: 3215: 3214: 3210: 3208: 3198: 3193: 3191: 3179: 3177: 3175: 3170: 3169: 3164: 3162: 3146: 3141: 3138:not a single 3137: 3135: 3132: 3127: 3125: 3087: 3083: 3077: 3075: 3073: 3068: 3066: 3061: 3057: 3053: 3051: 3045: 3041: 3039: 3036: 2999: 2990: 2971:unacceptable 2965: 2961: 2957: 2939: 2917: 2820: 2816: 2781:debilitating 2780: 2764: 2760: 2747: 2742: 2728: 2724: 2716: 2712: 2664: 2657: 2649: 2645: 2641: 2637: 2633: 2629: 2625: 2621: 2617: 2603: 2591: 2545: 2535: 2517: 2492: 2489:indisputable 2488: 2480: 2476: 2471: 2467: 2464:consensually 2463: 2459: 2440: 2436: 2432: 2420: 2416: 2408: 2404: 2400: 2392: 2384: 2380: 2368: 2360: 2356: 2352: 2348: 2341:controversy. 2328: 2324: 2301:prescriptive 2300: 2296: 2292: 2288: 2285:prescriptive 2284: 2280: 2263: 2259: 2254: 2224: 2211: 2207: 2159: 2155: 2143: 2129: 2121: 2105: 2065: 2060: 2057:non sequitur 2056: 2052: 1976: 1952: 1927: 1859: 1850: 1847: 1835: 1809: 1799: 1776: 1772: 1741: 1735: 1731: 1721: 1705: 1659: 1655: 1651: 1627: 1601: 1571: 1566: 1535: 1531: 1515: 1511: 1503: 1455: 1444:Thessaloniki 1438: 1434: 1407: 1403: 1399: 1375: 1348: 1327: 1323: 1321: 1275: 1267: 1263: 1238: 1233:Macedonians' 1232: 1212: 1205: 1180: 1110: 1106: 1102: 1085: 1081: 1061:Sea of Japan 1048: 935: 920: 899: 880:nationality. 878: 856: 854: 849: 839: 836: 832: 821: 799: 786: 782: 778: 731: 715: 682: 525: 503: 495: 484: 462: 459:kafrileontas 455: 441: 440: 338: 337: 334: 325: 324: 313:kafrileontas 264: 263: 255: 247: 240: 230: 223: 214: 192: 177: 173: 166: 146: 101: 70: 43: 37: 13075:fourth time 12941:Macedonians 12766:"Bulgarian" 12518:nationalism 12041:Macedonians 12020:Macedonians 11857:Macedonians 11018:macedonians 10879:Yes, master 10737:Macedonians 10653:Macedonians 10630:Macedonians 10618:Macedonians 10592:Cum again, 10538:at times.-- 10435:reprimanded 10314:high school 10172:Fallmerayer 10097:White trash 9938:information 9262:supervision 8735:As always, 8329:in the past 8164:technically 8160:Macedonians 8156:Macedonians 8050:nationality 7582:Macedonians 7563:descriptive 7472:Macedonians 7369:Macedonians 7300:Macedonians 7268:Macedonians 7250:protest to 7240:Macedonians 7203:Macedonians 6826:offensive. 6737:descriptive 6540:as well as 5901:Macedonians 5845:any history 5542:white power 5297:Jonathunder 5183:Jonathunder 5167:Jonathunder 5015:. You are 4750:Macedonians 4742:we are not 4661:prima facie 4631:about this 4591:to Flavsavr 4581:wikipedia. 4434:User:Miskin 4130:- to cite: 3880:Article 15. 3784:recognises 3442:Yes, it is. 3069:Macedonians 3046:Macedonians 2514:Balkan Wars 2468:Macedonians 2385:Macedonians 2297:descriptive 2281:descriptive 1851:So it is! 1328:Macedonians 1324:Macedonians 1241:-- Uncle Ed 1167:-- Uncle Ed 1141:-- Uncle Ed 1115:-- Uncle Ed 1007:-- Uncle Ed 945:Macedonia). 861:-- Uncle Ed 813:-- Uncle Ed 549:Macedonians 532:Macedonians 500:Macedonians 465:Macedonians 149:Macedonians 36:This is an 13404:Macedonian 13268:Macedonian 13134:Macedonian 13097:Ethnologue 13019:Ethnologue 13004:Bulgarians 12991:Macedonian 12958:Macedonian 12910:Macedonian 12886:Macedonian 12867:it'll come 12851:Macedonian 12554:Macedonian 12387:Macedonian 12308:Macedonian 12265:propaganda 12181:Macedonian 11999:Macedonian 11934:Macedonian 11893:Macedonian 11782:Macedonian 11677:Theathenae 11627:Macedonian 11592:Britannica 11588:Ethnologue 11566:Macedonian 11547:Theathenae 11522:Macedonian 11503:Theathenae 11470:Theathenae 11422:Macedonian 11282:It sounds 11053:Macedonian 10977:Theathenae 10973:convenient 10944:Macedonian 10910:Macedonian 10892:Theathenae 10883:Theathenae 10845:Lights out 10834:Macedonian 10806:Theathenae 10798:volte-face 10757:Theathenae 10741:Britannica 10733:Britannica 10717:Theathenae 10679:Macedonian 10661:Theathenae 10598:Theathenae 10540:Theathenae 10534:is rather 10522:You know, 10440:Theathenae 10375:Theathenae 10332:Sockpuppet 10233:Macedonian 10221:Theathenae 10048:Macedonian 10010:ideologies 9988:Macedonian 9950:aspiration 9934:everything 9916:Macedonian 9895:Theathenae 9789:Macedonian 9770:Theathenae 9736:Macedonian 9695:Macedonian 9643:Macedonian 9628:Theathenae 9597:Macedonian 9582:Theathenae 9510:Macedonian 9463:Macedonian 9355:Theathenae 9331:IMHO, the 9222:Theathenae 9167:Theathenae 9158:Macedonian 9142:Theathenae 9128:Theathenae 9112:Theathenae 9046:Macedonian 9037:Macedonian 9022:Theathenae 9013:, or not. 8976:Macedonian 8902:Theathenae 8898:status quo 8880:Theathenae 8841:inter alia 8829:Theathenae 8799:Macedonian 8784:Theathenae 8753:Theathenae 8741:homophobia 8721:Theathenae 8703:Macedonian 8683:Theathenae 8670:Macedonian 8655:Theathenae 8594:Macedonian 8519:irrelevant 8425:Macedonian 8299:Macedonian 8227:Macedonian 8201:Macedonian 8124:Macedonian 8063:Aegean Sea 8036:convention 8017:Macedonian 7964:Macedonian 7940:Macedonian 7904:Macedonian 7864:called is 7844:Macedonian 7777:researched 7753:Macedonian 7681:Macedonian 7634:Macedonian 7551:And this: 7408:Macedonian 7375:Macedonian 6905:Bulgarians 6788:Macedonian 6757:a postcard 6641:yourself. 6611:gënjeshtar 6550:accusation 6444:is right. 5822:Bulgarians 5797:Bulgarians 5664:Ethnologue 5638:I repeat: 5594:See, when 5279:User:VMORO 5107:Ethnologue 5063:infallible 4954:Trotskyite 4655:or even a 4487:Theathenae 4465:a postcard 4442:Theathenae 4404:Theathenae 4362:Nat Krause 4298:this State 4251:Theathenae 4146:monopolize 3602:Macedonian 3346:Theathenae 3342:МАКАТАМИЈА 2821:investment 2729:investment 2674:policy. -- 2628:, in fact 2596:amputation 2568:Theathenae 2523:Theathenae 2512:after the 2477:everything 2216:Theathenae 2152:Queen Anne 1987:article. 1814:Theathenae 1773:status quo 1765:Theathenae 1746:Theathenae 1742:Macedonian 1728:Aromanians 1723:Macedoneni 1707:Theathenae 1668:Theathenae 1632:Theathenae 1613:Theathenae 1572:the truth. 1468:Theathenae 1380:Theathenae 1357:Theathenae 1310:Theathenae 1296:Theathenae 1290:living in 1208:Theathenae 1181:they don't 1086:are indeed 984:Theathenae 970:Theathenae 753:Theathenae 737:Theathenae 695:Theathenae 675:Bulgarians 627:Yugoslavia 520:Theathenae 435:KoRnholio8 369:Alma Pater 357:Emir Arven 161:Theathenae 139:Theathenae 90:Archive 10 13304:Fyromians 12824:FTROGians 12800:Macedonia 12379:Bulgaria. 12226:St. Cyril 12219:Macedonia 12195:etymology 12141:Regards. 12117:St. Cyril 12113:Macedonia 12099:To Miskin 11796:your lies 11707:FlavrSavr 11594:and then 11377:FlavrSavr 11329:Christmas 11288:FlavrSavr 11284:perfectly 11216:FlavrSavr 11192:FlavrSavr 11162:Of course 11158:Of course 11071:the right 10989:. 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