Talk:Macedonians (ethnic group)/Archive 2

1611:. I see from the way you write, you are a Greek partisan (ofcourse your username also helps). I used Demosthenes' statement as a supporting point, not the whole of the argument. Your point that It belongs to Greece because the Macedons were Greek and were thought so by ancient Greeks, doesn't really matter if you looked at my statement about Prussians. The Prussians were not German, but the Germans appropriated the name (and some of the territory) for use in their own state of Prussia. This is the most similar parallel I can currently think of. I see no reason not to call Prussia Prussia, just because Germans were the main ethnic group there, and they spoke a Germanic and not a Balitc language. Macedonia occupies part of the region of Macedonia, the people are mostly Slavic, and speak a Slavonic tongue, but that they are slavic doesn't really matter, since they still occupy part of the region of Macedonia, and they called their country Macedonia. Greek petty imperialism focuses on the people. However, the land is also important, and since it occupies a portion of the region traditionally considered as Macedonia, it is perfectly fine to call it Macedonia. Ofcourse even if it did not occupy any part of the region of Macedonia (say if it were in South America), it is the name that it chose for itself. There's a US state called Georgia, there's also a country called Georgia. Does the fact that there's a Cambridge in Massachuettes denigrate the cultural heritage of Cambridge England? Does the fact that Zaire renamed itself the Democratic Republic of the Congo mean that the former Zaire is making a territorial play for the Republic of the Congo (or Congo-Brazzaville) ? The Russe were a Viking tribe, hence Germanic, invited to rule from Kiev (Ukraine), but Russia carries the Germanic name of a country based in the Ukraine, and they're slavs, not germans. Are you saying that Russia should be called Moscow because the capital is Moscow, the people are slavs, and they don't speak a Germanic language? 1404:, as you can see in the international organizations list above, just as the Macedonian language is accepted. Actually, the majority of credible institutions and media refer to the Macedonians as Macedonians, plain and simple. I don't see how the usage of the Macedonians (nationality) term deprives from your right to feel as Macedonian? You use it in a regional sense, we use it in a national sense. There would be a real problem if two ethnic groups use the term Macedonians in an ethnic sense, but that's actually not the case. Your knowledge of history amazes me! It is funny that you mentioned that the Greeks were ethnically cleansed from the region of Macedonia. Please check out censuses before the Greek Civil War, who was the majority of Macedonia. Actually, in the 20th century, it is the Greeks that have ethnically cleansed considerable amounts of Macedonians, Bulgarians, Turks, etc. I happen to live in an entire neighborhood comprised of Macedonian refugees from Aegean Macedonia, I do believe that is actually what we are talking about when in comes to "ethnic cleansing". Talking about history, this is not a historical debate, and when reffering to the actual naming of this article Knowledge is not here to debate that there is such a thing called 1664:(what a nonsense, we would equally be ashamed of any irrational add-ons), greek and bulgarian national-chauvinists, people equating democacy with majorization, people that simply didn't manage to see the ripe version of the poll (Geogre). Facts, numbers, comparative situations, international organizations, media, books of references all calling peopleX Macedonians, all this blatantly ignored. Not to mention self-determination. Not to mention a violation of NPOV policy. I have already warned everybody about ethnic majorization that would, and is already happening to this article/poll, and I haven't seen some steps to prevent that. I mean, yes, I can put this topic to some Wiki IRC channels of friendly countries, and probably get some more votes on the "Macedonian" side, but is that the point of Knowledge? Knowledge is about truth, Knowledge is about freedom, Knowledge is about knowledge. I can barely see that in this poll. This is already ruining the image of Knowledge, failing to accept that there is such a thing called 2492:

to inquire which people of the Hellenes he should esteem the most powerful and gain over to himself as friends. And inquiring he found that the Lacedemonians and the Athenians had the pre-eminence, the first of the Dorian and the others of the Ionian race. For these were the most eminent races in ancient time, the second being a Pelasgian and the first a Hellenic race: and the one never migrated from its place in any direction, while the other was very exceedingly given to wanderings; for in the reign of Deucalion this race dwelt in Pthiotis, and in the time of Doros the son of Hellen in the land lying below Ossa and Olympos, which is called Histiaiotis; and when it was driven from Histiaiotis by the sons of Cadmos, it dwelt in Pindos and was called Makednian; and thence it moved afterwards to Dryopis, and from Dryopis it came finally to Peloponnesus, and began to be called Dorian.

2108:. As for the ethnic group that has demonstrably lived there much longer than people X, it is probably nearly "ethnically Slavic" as their northern counterpart, peopleX. You seem to be talking about some ethnically pure, vacuumed ethnic groups? Not to mention that the Slavic speaking inhabitants of the region were actually the majority of the population of until the beggining of the 20th century, inhabiting the region for only 14 centuries. It is actually Greek Macedonians wanting to have "special rights". But the issue itself is not historical. The right of peopleX to declare themselves and to be percevied as Macedonians (nationality) is indisputable, legally. What would be the problem if the article Macedonians is about the different people in the region, while Macedonians (nationality) for the peopleX, which are widely known as Macedonians, both officially and unofficially? -- 2512:"Macedonians (nationality)" and all articles that contain the different applications of the term "Macedonians" would have modifiers such as "nation", "geographic" or "Ancient" to make distinction; 2. The term "Macedonian Slavs" is not clear on its own because of all the Slavic people living in the region who do not consider themselves as Macedonians and because the Slavic nature of its own is disputed. In addition, I would like to underline that research has shown that the use of the term "Macedonians" in international relations as well as on the web refers to "People X" in most of the cases whereas the term "Macedonian Slavs" is outdated as of 2001. For more information, consider the various sources displayed above. Clarity is, therefore, an argument that needs to be reconsidered. Thank you for your attention. 3373:. Λέγω δε ων ότι Μαρδονίω τε και τη στρατιή τα σφάγια ου δύναται καταθύμια γενέσθαι" πάλαι γαρ αν έμάχεσθε• νυν δε οι δέδοκται τα μεν σφάγια εάν χαίρειν, άμα ήμέρη δε διαφωσκούση συμβολήν ποιέεσθαι' κα-ταρρώδηκε γαρ μη πλέονες συλλεχθήτε, ως εγώ εικάζω. Προς ταύτα ετοιμάζεστε. ην δε άρα υπερβάληται την συμβολήν Μαρδόνιος και μη ποιήται, λιπαρέετε μένοντες• όλιγέων γαρ σφι ήμερέων λείπεται αιτία. Ην δε υμίν ο πόλεμος όδε κατά νόον τελευτήση, μνησθήναί τίνα χρή και έμέο έλευθερώσιος περί, ός Ελλήνων είνεκα έργον ούτω παράβολον έργασμαι υπό προθυμίης, έθέλων υμίν δηλώσαι την διάνοιαν την Μαρδονίου, ίνα μη έπιπέσωσι υμίν εξαίφνης οι βάρβαροι μη προσδεκομέ-νοισί κω. Ειμί δε Αλέξανδρος ό Μακεδών." Ό μεν ταύτα είπας άπήλαυνε οπίσω ες το στρατόπεδον και την έωυτού τάξι (Herodot) 2408:

infringe on Greece's right to self-identify as a (partly) Macedonian nation. If people X called themselves anything other than "Macedonian", Greece would have no issue with their distinct nationhood. But whether one likes it or not, Greece considers Macedonia an integral part of its national heritage, and this must be taken into account in any fair decision regarding the name. "Macedonian Slav" is the only viable compromise solution to this otherwise intractable dispute. It is the only alternative term that has been used internationally, including by Greeks, and I personally know X moderates who would not consider it the end of the world or a gross violation of their human rights. I find it interesting that nationalists of the X persuasion would lay claim to

1668:, that this is commonly known in the entire world, and barely causes confusion - that is a great shift from reality. I guess the English administration does not see the seriousness required when such delicate themes are discussed, nor it cannot foresee the grave consequences of this adventure. Allowing discrimination on ethnic or quasihistorical basis is a serious human rights issue, and most admins should be aware that they have the responsibility to prevent that. To make myself clear, I will hardly accept the relevance of this poll, regardless who wins. I'm rather wikidepressed right now, so I'm thinking of quitting of the Macedonian project. I might be off this discussion for a while, meanwhile, I kindly reccomend for this article to be called 3357:. Know then that Mardonius and his army cannot obtain favourable omens; had it not been for this, they would have fought with you long ago. Now, however, they have determined to let the victims pass unheeded, and, as soon as day dawns, to engage in battle. Mardonius, I imagine, is afraid that, if he delays, you will increase in number. Make ready then to receive him. Should he however still defer the combat, do you abide where you are; for his provisions will not hold out many more days. If ye prosper in this war, forget not to do something for my freedom; consider the risk I have run, out of zeal for the Greek cause, to acquaint you with what Mardonius intends, and to save you from being surprised by the barbarians. I am Alexander of Macedon." 1585:

checked out the wikis about Demosthenes and other people of Alexander's era? Surely Demosthenes called Macedonians barbarians, not Greek. Do you know he built an army against Alexander with Persian gold? Are you aware of Demosthenes' political ambitions? Do you know that there were many people in Athens who disagreed with Demosthenes? I understand the right of FYROM to exist and their need for self-identification. And I want the people of Skopje to live free and happy. But what about my need and right for self-identification? How can you deprive my right to call myself Macedonian. This name is active in the Greek history for more than 2000 years. It's not something forgotten or a myth. Perhaps if FYROM choose the name of

1213:, you can do what you like, but you can't label other's how you like: self determination is a right and if you have a problem with that you should take it up with your ambassador in the UN: he signed away that you grant this right to others. If you have any sense of ethics, you will respect that right, not only for yourself but for others. But if you deny others that right, you should not expect others to grant yours. Let me assure you, there is no logic to nation building: it is all politics - grow up and get used to it (or go set up Wiki-kiddie-pedia as a platform for infantile delusions such as that any of the various people in the Balkans have one particular distinct origin). As for you 1369:". What more proof do you need in order to realise that not only you don't own that name, but you also have no connection to it? What's most ironic is that your Slavic ancestors have probably fought and died against the real Macedonians who were Greeks. The sense of irony comes when the new generations want to adapt the name and heritage of their historical enemies. Imagine suddenly all Greeks wishing to be called Ottomans or something similar (and claiming that Ottomans were never a Turkic people). Since you're not ashamed of it, I rest my case. But it's extremely ridiculous that at the same time your people thinks it has an ethnic pride... What would life be without a sense of irony? :) 1836:

and abroad - none of them negates the existence of the nation in question. On the other hand, the term "Macedonians Slavs" is meant to disregard the existence of People X as a separate nation and it is in this context that Greeks have introduced it in the political discourse. The term "Macedonian Slavs" is also being used by some Bulgarians and few Serbs with the subtext that Macedonians are really Bulgarians or Serbs. Also, if you watch political debates concerning the Republic of Macedonia and its peoples, you will notice many politicians and other parties who normally use the term "Macedonians" use the term "Macedonian Slavs" as a

2864:"Clearly"? The intentions and implications of exclaiming that "Cleopatra spoke Macedonian!" (as if this were some kind of earth-shattering revelation), and calling the language "Makedonski jazik" when that is exactly the same name given to the unrelated modern Slavic language, are quite obvious. The author makes no attempt to disambiguate the ancient Macedonian language from the modern "Macedonian" language, leaving your average "Macedonian" assuming that they are one and the same. This kind of deliberate historical falsification lies at the heart of the "Macedonian" issue.-- 2149:

irrational nationalism in the early 90's (I was like 8 years old then) filled with right wing romantic revival and baseless paroles such as:"Thessalonika is ours" (Solun e nash). After 15 dramatic years of a devastating economic crisis, rapid pauperization, and economic, legal, political and moral degradation of the Macedonian society, that culminated in the War conflict, Macedonians learned that having an independent state is not a kiddie play with nationalist swords. I can assure you that no serious person living in the RoM has territorial pretensions towards Greece. --

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officially? Albania also seems to recognize the term "Macedonians" - it had allowed a registration of People X's party called party of "Macedonians". I'm not sure what officially recognized name of a people means, but most governments give the freedom of self - determination. Since People X declare themselves as "Macedonians" in all countries, not as "Macedonian Slavs", and as such (as "Macedonians") appear in the official results of the censuses - this could mean that the officially recognized name of this people by all countries is "Macedonians"

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slightly confusing, it mentions prominent representatives of the theories shown: Nada Proeva, J.R. Ellis, and a greek archeologist Photis Petzas. Because I'm not an expert historian, I left them there (and also added some cosmetics and links on them), until someone negates these theories are actually supported by scientific research. The Egyptians - Macedonians parallel works pretty well, because, although their language is Arabic (the peopleX's language is Macedonian, officialy, not Macedonian Slavic), and although there are groups (the

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present adjective Slav Macedonian/Macedonian Slav should be preserved to distinguish events/persons/other phenomena which refer to the nation from events/persons/other phenomena which refer to the whole region. I will remind you that the same modifier is used with regard to the ancient Macedonians - in this case the adjective "Ancient Macedonian". Don't presuppose that all comments referring to "Macedonian Slavs" are aimed to insult you, that is not the case.

5192:- despite the Greeks having thrown off the Turkish yoke a century earlier. Greeks are well aware that the world doesn't know or care enough about the issue to refrain from calling the FYROM "Macedonia" or people X "Macedonians", but that does not mean they cannot or should not express their legitimate grievances, or, as you suggest, that they are "heartless" or "embarassed" to do so. We live in the real world and not everyone has to agree with you.-- 1341:

themselves as Greeks 2700 years ago. Today it's still used in the same area by people also recognise themselves as Macedonian Greeks. Obviously during all this time many ethnic groups managed to settle in Macedonia (including Slavs and Turks) but Greeks never ceased to be the majority until the area was ethnically cleansed. So due all the respect, but with what logical arguments do you expect us to let this name be monopolised by a people who is

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sources that have no ethnic context they are referred as "Western Bulgarians". And as a last notice, Nothern Greeks today refer to themselves as Macedonians as well, while on the other hand ancient Macedonians referred to themselves as Northern Greeks. After agreeing with this, the Slavic crowd had better come up with a damn good reason as to why we should consider what FYROM calls itself more valid than real Macedonians/Northern Greeks.

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Bulgaria, but also from Yugoslav Partisan and other sources, with the implication that Greek territory would be included in the projected state. “This Government considers talk of Macedonian “nation”, Macedonian “Fatherland” or Macedonian “national consciousness” to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic or political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece”.

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1803:? Can someone explain why Macedonian Slav is a slur when Swiss German or Dutch-Flemish or Greek Cypriot are not? If the argument is that "that's what they call themselves" and calling them anything else amounts to a serious violation of their human rights, what about all those peoples who call themselves one thing and are called something entirely different by the rest of the world? The Germans are 5016:

Congress of Local and Regional Authorities of Europe, the European Court of Human Rights, independent monitoring mechanisms, as well as reports, declarations and other texts attributed to individual Parliamentarians, representatives to the Congress, judges of the Court or members of independent monitoring mechanisms will not have to be changed if they are not in line with the agreed references.

128:, although this is a naming convention about an article, it may be a too sensitive issue to resolve in a poll, since it is connected with some basic human self-identification rights. Also, the other options should be mentioned, and some baseless parts of the facts section should be presented a bit more neutral. (I will add some indisputed facts there, I'll try to be as neutral as possible). -- 1365:

debate on this article, would be on whether or not we could actually consider FYROMians as an ethnic group different from Bulgarians, instead of whether or not they should be called "Macedonians". FYROMians is a Slavic ethnic group and Macedonians is a Hellenic. The word "Macedonia" itself is a Greek word that has no meaning in the Bulgarian dialect that's so ironically baptised "the

107:, there are obvious mistakes in the presented facts because, no country (except Greece), actually denies the existence of a nation called Macedonians (reffering to the people X), which is widely accepted in the international community. No international institution (INCLUDING the UN), nor government (except Greece) denies that Macedonians ("people X") should be called Macedonians. 918:

there is more of you (when there is not), in other words to intimidate - and that ain't nice! I accept that it can become an unconcious bad habit. But I will have none of it all the same. Same goes for voting NO. Its easy to be against something because it spares you from saying what you are for. Why don't "we" write an article against Macedonians then, and we could call it

5105:. Thousands of letters were send to Walter Schwimmer, the chairman of this organization. Also official governmental reaction followed, that the CoE was deconstructing its basic princple. It was immediately withdrawn. In fact Walter Schwimmer himself stated that such a resolution never even existed. The Council of Europe still refers to people X as Macedonians. See: 254:(yet the Gaulish/Celtic element in French is known to be negligible, at least in terms of word-stock). Romanians, by the fact we speak a Romance language, directly links us with the heritage of the Romans. I am going to remove Romanians and French from this list. Romanians would be a comparable situation if we officially called ourselves Dacians---but we do not. 587:

three admin and have by far the biggest number of edits), that I cannot be classified as a case of socket puppetry. If the rule is to serve the purpose and the purpose has not been defied in any way, the rule should not be applied strictly, in my view at least. That said, if you feel that my case does not qualify for exemption, I will respect your solution. --

1030:: Are there any words in the Macedonian Slav language that any credible linguist has nominated as possibly of ancient Macedonian origin? Probably not, and if there are some nominated, those nominated may as well be from Thracian or Illyrian. The absence of ancient Macedonian words speaks for itself, and so you're right that it doesn't depend on what 4959:

school books there are maps of a "liberated" "united" Macedonia? Is it not true that Political parties in FYROM encourage signs "MACEDONIANS ARE MACEDONIAN...NOT GREEK...MACEDONIA CONQUERED GREECE AND ONE DAY ALL OF MACEDONIA WILL BE TOGETHER AGAIN!!!!! MAKEDONIA ZA MAKEDONCITE!!!!!" Similar posts were posted in this page a few days ago isn't it?

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thinks of FYROM, the majority of its inhabitants, and the rest of the Slavs. (And hopefully, this won't ever affect the world's view of the Slavs.) This is merely a diplomatic tactic, duplicated here in order to create confusion and spread false impressions. People should focus on the real arguments and totally disregard this hilarious claim.

4016:, and RoM is constitutionally consisted of ethnic groups, among them Macedonian people. I think that an Albanian would be even offended if he is told that he is a member of Macedonians (nationality), although he definitely is a Macedonian citizen. Besides, no one refers to them as Macedonians. I think I have a semantic trouble with all this 120:, this black and white situation (Macedonians vs Macedonians Slavs) is not a good solution to end this dispute, because, if the use of the term Macedonians causes confusion, this could be resolved in a less dramatic way - Macedonians (ethnicity), Macedonians (ethnic group), Macedonians (nationality) or Ethnic Macedonians. That means that 3907:

Inasmuch as the Greek Macedonians are neither an ethnicity, nor a nationality, I can't see any reason as to why this proposal should be unacceptable for them... And inasmuch as FlavrSavr also agrees to such a variant, I would propose that most people who have some common sense in their heads unite around such a compromise variant.

976:. But this is absurd because there is no such thing as a Slav language; "Slav" is a term that designates a group of languages, many of which I personally do not understand at any useful or practical level. But never mind reality (which has anyway been amputated from this article): your idea must then be corrected as to read: 1949:; they would simply call them Bulgars or Serbs. Indeed, Greece would be rather disinclined to promote a greater ethnic Bulgaria in this way. As Delirium mentioned, the only problem Greeks have is not with the existence of people X as a separate nation, but their unqualified use of the name in a way Greeks see as negating 2315:"Mother earth". "the Mother land". Suggesting no doubt that Macedonia is the age-old homeland of the Macedonian Slavs? See, politics & nationalism do begin to infringe on history, which is why I'm concerned with this issue---but the nationalists who make such claims don't represent the position of the entire people. 350:

means that some aspects (the ethnicity) are more important than others (the most common name used to descripe People X, right of self-identification etc.). Perhaps different 'areas' of comparability are more appropriate? The Bulgarian - Bulgar example is a good one, thanks for reminding me of that. Regards. --

984:. I've even got a better idea: Why don't we all start pinning language to other national identities and start reclassifying these according to our newfound wisdom!? Lets do the Spanish first: anyone dare? Of course not, better just stick to beating up the Macedonians! Even better: anyone up for a redirect of 5164:

I urge any Macedonian and Greek to when in NY visit the UN and attend a meeting - many of them are public. Maybe they get lucky to see one where there will be some delegates from one or both countries and see this practical compormise in action. Its almost cute, especially when the meeting brakes and

5066:

You know, I didn't think that Knowledge was covered by any one of the Council of Europe's "Parliamentary Assembly, the Congress of Local and Regional Authorities of Europe, the European Court of Human Rights and independent monitoring mechanisms". What international bodies call states is a matter for

3930:

Macedonia has been so-called for at least 2500 years. I don't think disambiguating Macedonians as "Modern" would be particularly useful, though. Ancient Macedonians were a distinct ethnic group - Greek-speaking, arguably ethnically Greek themselves, etc. "Modern" Macedonians implies a line of descent

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This is actually more a response to Mel Etitis, I thought mistakenly that it was FlavrSavr that had written that "thing" up there. No article is supposed to be frozen in a state of "permanent beauty". And even panel of neutral editors does not have the right to decide which "permanent beauty" is best

3778:

I couldn't agree more. The problem with this sort of vote is that many of the participants bring so much emotional and political baggage with them that they don't - and perhaps can't - take an objective view. Contentious decisions on naming need to be taken out of the hands of the POV-pushers on both

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45-They at once, hearing this, made haste to the outpost, where they found Alexander, who addressed them as follows:"Men of Athens, that which I am about to say I trust to your honour; and I charge you to keep it secret from all excepting Pausanias, if you would not bring me to destruction. Had I not

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From this I can conclude that the UN refers to peopleX as Macedonians. Given the fact that the United Nations is one of the most reliable sources when dealing such matters, I do believe this fact should be incorporated in the Agreed Facts section, rather than in the lower "International Organizations

2928:

Witty you. After Cleopatra was unrolled from her carpet in front of Caesar, she was asked about it and said: "NE ZNAM." So 1) she was off topic too and 2) she spoke in Macedonian. Killer piece of evidence by Cleopatra's contemporary Vasil Ilyov... But wait... Even if he was her contemporary, would he

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have convinced you that nobody outside FYROM buys the existence of "Macedonian nation" prior to Tito. Basically if it makes you feel any better, the only link between Slavo-Macedonian and the real Macedonians, is that both of them are part of a greater ethnic group (the former being Bulgarian and the

2228:

has a greek history of more than 2000 years, and only matters the 50 or 150 last years of the people self-identifying themselvers as Macedonians. I wonder what would happen if Greece instead of a pacifist nation were warmonger. And I 'll never understand why people of FYROM cannot find something from

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We hava a constitution that assures everybody that RoM has no expansion intentions to any neigbour country. Since this is a modern state, which is recognized by everybody, it should be an sufficent insurance that people X have no teritorial pretensions towards Greece!? Other than that, I dont see how

2148:

Hardly. We barely manage to maintain an actual unification in the very Republic of Macedonia, considering the damaged inter-ethnical relations with Albanians. However, there are certain individuals that bear such irredentist emotions, I can assure you they are marginal. There was a certain element of

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sense here. However, I do believe that Ethnic Macedonians, Macedonians (ethnic group), Macedonians (ethnicity), or Macedonians (nationality) are far more disambiguating than Macedonian Slavs, aren't they? Furthermore, you obviously don't see the essential difference between the "Macedonian Greek" and

1851:

No, it is simply a disambiguating term. My mom is a Macedonian. She is not, however Slavic, or a resident of the Republic of Macedonia; she is a Macedonian Greek. Thus we have Macedonian Slavs and Macedonian Greeks. The Greeks, at least, do not dispute the existence of this group as a people or a

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existing in the 19 century. They will also tell you that Northern Greece is an occupied territory, and in order to back this up they'll come up with data that shows Greek Macedonian population being 95% Macedonian Slav. Quoting what they think or say doesn't make you look very intelligent. As for the

1575:

The Germans in Prussia were not ethnic Prussians, but still called themselves Prussian. Names, ah names. Why do so many Christian-names come from the Bible when these people with those names are not semitic? Why do you find so many Britons of antiquity with Latin names when they're not members of any

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positions? Fortunately, if one is really interested about ancient history, there are many evidence that macedonians are just another Greek group, like Spartans or Athenians. There were a lot of people opposing Demosthenes, just study the history before and during the reign of Alexander the Great. The

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with no add-ons. Macedonians speaking for themselves is the only thing that speaks for itself. Everything else is but commentary about Macedonians speaking for themselves, including your noted linguists. The fact is that there are political interests that do not want Macedonian self-determination and

896:. You have cluttered the talk page with an endless stream of unclear rumminations and spiteful comments. I will kindly suggest you that if you can't say anything constructive and to the point, you might as well keep the rest for yourself. I doubt that anyone has bothered read your "thingie" in depth. 623:, instead? This avoids confusion even more. They are undoubtedly of primate origin, plus this is how they are generally percieved by their neighbors. "Macedonian Apes are a nation of primate origin. They call themselves "Macedonians" and a "nation", but this is somewhat ambigious, since several other 443:

be mentioned - try to filter all Google searches with -2001, especially those concerning the various media attitudes towards the naming of people X, it is easy to conclude that they haven't used the "Macedonian Slavs" term since 2001, while they continue to use the name "Macedonians" after that year.

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The Parliamentary Assembly, the Congress of Local and Regional Authorities of Europe, the European Court of Human Rights and independent monitoring mechanisms are strongly encouraged to use these references. However, texts emanating or prepared under instructions from the Parliamentary Assembly, the

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is a special case; it's customarily not translated in order to avoid confusion with Serbia proper (compare "Serbian Republic" with "Republic of Serbia" - in English the two have the same meaning.) In the case of the Macedonians, there's already a well-established term (the word "Macedonian" has been

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U.S. State Department, Foreign Relations Vol. VII, Circular Airgram (868.014 / 26 Dec. 1944) by then Secretary of State E. Stettinius: “The Department has noted with considerable apprehension increasing propaganda rumors and semi-official statements in favor of an autonomous Macedonia emanating from

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To make things clear - in case someone misunderstands me now - I'll again reiterate that a decision on "Macedonians" with a qualifier is perfectly acceptable for me - whether this qualifier is "(ethnicity)" or "(nationality)". And I agree with FlavrSavr that Modern Macedonians sounds rather bizarre.

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solution is going to be acceptable to everyone. As we've already seen from this debate, some Greeks don't want the Macedonian Slavs to be called "Macedonian" at all, while of course the Macedonians themselves understandably would prefer to be called by what they call themselves. Whatever solution is

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2524:

referring to people X as "Macedonian Slavs" in the year 2001 precisely to distinguish the majority ethnic group from the Albanian minority, which was a relevant distinction to make in the context of an ethnic conflict. Before then, the ethnic complexity of the FYROM was largely ignored and the focus

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of Belgium and Egypt, not a mere 38%, and nobody but a Belgian or Egyptian would describe his or herself that way. Also, none of the ethnic groups in Belgium or Egypt claims the exclusive right to call itself ethnic "Belgians" or ethnic "Egyptians" speaking "Belgian" or "Egyptian". A truer parallel

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problem with calling people X "Macedonians" is the implication that they have a special status or special connection to Macedonia that the rest of the Macedonian population, including an ethnic group that has demonstrably lived there much longer than people X and happens to be in the majority today,

1547:

did you find in Prussia anyways? (Note: not the same as German). The United States has a state called New Mexico, and there's a country refered to as Mexico. Californias exist on both sides of the US-Mexico border. There are two countries named Congo! We have two Chinas, two Koreas, used to have two

1298:

Anyway, there is not much more juice to squeeze out of this. I'm not foaming at the mouth on this topic, and it is an issue outside of Knowledge's jurisdiction. In the end, no one can force a people to adopt an ethnonym they don't want, even at gunpoint. And this issue doesn't involve me personally,

688:

When will people realise that the racial and ethnic disctinctions in the Balkans are a myth that is not supported by scientific genetic research? Ethnicity and nationalism are expressions of political self-determination. They have nothing to do with any notion of "who you actually and scientifically

639:

I have nothing against the renaming of the article to "Macedonians (ethnic group)" or something similar. However, I am of the opinion that Macedonian Slavs should continue to be used synonymously in contexts which are potentially confusing. The same regards even in a higher degree the adjective. The

349:

a comparable situation, in a sense that, regardless of naming controversies with the Hispanic world, it is almost always used to decribe a citizen of the US, a certain nation. I'm not sure about the 'levels' of comparability, the naming problems has multiple aspects, not only an ethnic one. 'Levels'

5168:

If the wiki Greeks think this is impossible or outrageous - think twice: no UN decision can be above and higher than the UN charter and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights which describe the rights related to self-determination and nationhood. The decision is just a temporary patch up about a

4958:

Dear FlavrSavr can you explain why is vandalism the expression of a certain view. Even if you strongly disagree with this? I wrote the above statements and they are absolutely true. On the contrary your attermpt to delete my views is censorship and vandalism. Is it not true the fact that in FYROM's

3808:

No, it is not just a question of nomenclature, the point is to find a compromise solution which is not gonna be automatically resented as an affront either by the Macedonians or the Greeks. In my own opinion, "Macedonians" with some qualifier - (ethnicity), (nationality), Modern, etc. - is the best

3658:

above clearly shows that "Macedonians" is by far the most widely used term for People X. Yet this seems to be ignored in favour of rival nationalists trying to get out the votes for their own position (I've seen evidence of this on both the Greek and Macedonian sides). The evidence is largely being

3484:

Hellenophone. But they spoke Romanian also at least as far back as my great-grandfather, and my father never learned Greek, and neither did I. Beyond my great-grandfather, I don't know if they spoke Romanian. I know my great-grandfather spoke Greek also because his wife was a Greek who didn't speak

3154:

report. The text uses "Macedonian Slavs" in one ocassion, while it also undoubtedly refers to peopleX as "Macedonians" two times, in one of them the term "ethnic Macedonians" is used. There are various statements of Albanian politicians referring to peopleX as "Macedonians". Sometimes the term Slav

2491:

See Herodot I,56 I,56. By these lines when they came to him Croesus was pleased more than by all the rest, for he supposed that a mule would never be ruler of the Medes instead of a man, and accordingly that he himself and his heirs would never cease from their rule. Then after this he gave thought

1364:

should not be allowed monopolise the name "Macedonians". In one phrase: Because they're not. The reason I'm pointing out the term "Slavic crowd" is in order to make a linguistic distinction from the real Macedonians. You can call Greeks "Hellenic" if that makes you feel any better. A more realistic

653:

Many of the arguments put forward against using the term Macedonians are pointless. A group of people have made their social contract and formed their national identity and vision. They chose the name Macedonians conciously and politically. No one else wanted it anyway - and even if they did, tough

594:

We recently had an outburst of sockpuppetry on some tangentially related VfD's — that was my main reason for including that clause. The purpose of the clause is to discourage sockpuppetry, and 50 edits on any Knowledge should in principle be enough to provide for that. I think that your vote should

373:

On the other hand the Belgians are hardly an ethnicity, so our problems continue :). Maybe even closer parallel is the Mexican case, since the word "Mexico" is possibly the name of the Aztec rulling class "Meshika" or an Aztec God? The Spaniards took their term, so the inhabitants of modern Mexico,

208:

that the ancient Macedonians felt Greeks is that Alexander the great after his first victory over the Persians dedicated all the spoils to the temple of Athena in Athens saying "Alexander and the Greeks except Spartans from the barbarians who live in Asia". Not even a slight note that the Hellenic

5149:

RoM delegations get to call it and themselves what they like AND everybody at the meeting is obliged to respond to them. Meaning, if a RoM delegate makes a statement "The Gov't of the RoM is of the opinion etc..." that statement is accepted as any other official statement from anyone else. No one,

5125:

A question to FlavrSavr. At your previews message you said that as long as the term Slav Macedonians is being used by WIKIPEDIA ".....As an admin of the Macedonian Knowledge I found it very hard to convince a wider macedonian public to participate in the macedonian wiki project ...." It looks like

5116:

Again, you distort the facts. The resolution clearly states that the decision is binding only on the Secretariat, not the other CoE bodies (such as the ECRI which you cite), for which it is merely a recommendation. Your campaign appears to have failed miserably, as the country is still referred to

3600:

votes particularly amusing.) And that number certainly excludes the much larger number of Slavophones in Macedonia who identify as Greeks and see the Rainbow Party as an affront to their Greek identity. Or maybe they're just afraid to show their true colours (excuse the pun), after all those evil,

3595:

prefecture, with a grand total of 0.39%. As parties stand for election across the entire length and breadth of the country, that national total of 6,176 includes people in Greece's positively ethnically undiverse deep south who probably only voted for them on account of their pretty name. (I found

3093:

Vergina, I must state that your I HAVE SOMETHING TO SAY!!! attitude and your bad English is doing much damage for the Greek POV. However, thanks for proving that: 1. Greece/most Greeks/some Greeks (I wouldn't like to make generalizations) actually, still deny that PeopleX are a distinct nation. 2.

2346:

I have no idea whether those are ancient Macedonian words or not, but they do look suspicious to me too. The text is not so well organized, but: 1. there are several other explanations of the etymology of the term, one of them being that the name comes from greek words etc. and 2. although, it is

2128:, regardless of their genetic ancestry. Yes, any territorial pretensions against Greece would indeed be impossible to realise, but those calling for the "spiritual reunification of Macedonia" were only removed from the constitution in 1995 after intense Greek and international pressure, as was the 1835:

It is not necessarily an ethnic slur to call someone a Slav (depending on context), but it is an ethnic slur to refer to ethnic Macedonians as "Macedonian Slavs" in present terms. Why are these two things different, you ask? Let's go back to your examples of people being called differently at home

1598:

The two parts of Ireland are *not* working for a Union. They are working towards something that is yet to be determined. Considering that a great many Protestants in Northern Ireland would like to remain in the UK, while a great many Catholics in Ireland would like to join the Republic of Ireland,

1395:

Miskin, if you really think that I am supposed to believe that you consider the Macedonians a real nation, or even humans, after saying a "Slavic crowd", we being "aliens" to the region, well, I don't know what to say - you can barely hide your racist attitude. You could have said "Slavic speaking

917:

There is nothing fair or unfair about it. We is We and its not I. So who gave VMORO the privilege, right or duty to speak for the writers of Knowledge? Is it perhaps you? I certainly didn't, I wouldn't and I have no right to do so. The only reason anyone may want to use "I" is to make others think

3881:

I agree that the committee of neutral editors should decide on this matter. Of course, no ethnic ties should be allowed for the members of this committee. No politics, also. I am a member of people X, so this can be seen as a POV: but, actually no significant (non-Greek, and non-Bulgarian) media,

3819:

The point about the panel of neutral editors s surely that their decision would be final; the article would be protected against moves, so that it wouldn't matter whether nationalist editors complained — there'd be nothing that they could do, and editors who simply wanted to write better articles

3620:

To be fair, I don't think the government in Skopje advocates any border changes. After all, if the borders in the region ever do change, it will certainly not be in Skopje's favour. I described the Rainbow Party as "Skopje-aligned" purely in terms of the ethnonational persuasion of its adherents,

2393:

assumption: That just like "Egyptian", the name "Macedonian" has always referred to an distinct ethnic group (rather than a group which recognises itself ethnic Greek). In other words, you're taken for granted that the entire world is under the FYROM government's nationalist propaganda. Until you

2196:

Anyone wondering where did the word "Slav" derive its negative connotation from? In the absence of true arguments, political and historical, official FYROM diplomacy often resorts to the "I'm offended" cliche in every mention of the "S" word. This has nothing to do with what the rest of the world

1969:

Theathenae, please show me the official population breakdown of Greece and tell me just when did Greece recognize the existence of the "Skopianoi" and the "Slavomakedones" as you call them. The Greek government did not bother recognizing the existence of these people in northern Greece until very

1953:

existence in the region. It is simply absurd to say that "the Macedonians form a minority of the Macedonian population", as if the majority were an alien element and by implication had no right to be there. (There are, of course, many Slav nationalists who wish to "liberate" the region from Greek

1872:

the "Macedonian Slav" term. While "Greek" is a name that is commonly accepted as an identifier of a certain nationality (actually, the identifier of that nationality abroad), "Slav" is merely a 6th century tribesman, and it is certainly not acceptable when refering to the certain modern nation. --

1663:

I'm sick and tired of this nonsense. I haven't heard any rational arguments about why shouldn't peopleX be called Macedonians (nationality). People equating Slavs and Slavic language, (Dutch = Dutch Germans, following that logic), people claiming that people X are ashamed of their Slavic heritage

1527:

As the ancient Greeks did not recognize Macedonia as a Hellenic nation, there is absolutely no point in regonizing the Hellenic Republic (Greece) claim to be the righteous owner of the term Macedonian. Since ancient Macedonia is non-Hellenic, any claims to ownership of the name (whose people were

147:

I tried to list the facts and sources above as neutrally as I could, and by the reactions so far it would appear that my personal POV is not showing very much. If I had thought that this should be decided on the basis of the current text of the article, I wouldn't have gone through the trouble of

5157:

In practice the second applies only when there is a Greek dlegate or official in the room because, even though non-Greek delegates are mostly not concerned in the least, if anyone starts RoM-ing or Macedonian-ing the RoM delegates, the Greek delegations are obliged by automatism in the form of a

4564:

a thousand years longer than they have been speaking Slavic. The language the "original" ancient Macedonians spoke is largely irrelevant; the ancient Macedonians were indisputably Greek by the time of the Roman conquest - several centuries before the first Slavs arrived - and were quite arguably

3918:

Well, isn't "Modern" the counterpart to "Ancient"? Seemed fairly logical to divide Macedonians into Ancient and Modern. It's still not ideal though, as it doesn't clearly establish which category Macedonians from Greek Macedonia belong. Question: How long has the Macedonian region of Greece been

3797:

Sure - but do you honestly expect that if this panel of yours decides tomorrow that the decision will be "Macedonians" without a qualifier, the decision will be accepted by the Greeks? And how long do you think that such a decision will last? The same regards the preservation of the status quo -

3364:

The Macedonian Language(Greek) 45.Οι δε έπει ταύτα ήκουσαν, αυτίκα είποντο ες τάς φύλακας. Άπικομένοισι δε έλεγε Αλέξανδρος τάδε' "Άνδρες Αθηναίοι, παραθήκην υμίν τα έπεα τάδε τίθεμαι, απόρρητα ποιεύμενος προς μηδένα λέγειν υμέας άλλον ή Παυσανίην, μη με και διαφθείρητε• ου γαρ αν έλεγον, ει μη

1589:

it would be different... It's not true that only ancient macedonians names were Greek. All of them, not just their kings, were Greeks and believed it. The books exist, and even the wikis are right here available, you just have to read them. Finally, I want to emphasize that wikipedia is not the

1584:

The two parts of Ireland are working for a union, we only have one Germany for the last 15 years, I 'm not aware of a second China. Will FYROM join Greece? Will FYROM dream, like Bulgary surely did one century ago, of "Aegean Macedonia", an exit to sea? Have you studied ancient history? Have you

1345:

to both the real region of Macedonia and the historically known Macedonian people? But you can't answer that can you? Let me guess, Big Brother never told you that ancient Macedonians recognised themselves as Greeks nor that part of the Greek war of independence took place in Macedonia (which is

831:

also chose to abstain by voting NO (???) in the part where contributors are asked to vote "YES: Keep this article". There was no request for a NO vote: only for a YES vote for one of two options. This is again another Balkan sickness: people voting against stuff (but I hear its catching in other

586:

I feel that the rule to have a minimum of 50 edits is unfairly banning me from voting (sadly, I have spent a long time editing without registering as a user). It should be clear from my previous record on both the English Knowledge and, especially, the Macedonian Knowledge (where I am one of the

5011:

Taking into account Resolution (95) 23 adopted by the Committee of Ministers on 19 October 1995 at the 547th meeting of Ministers' Deputies, the Secretarial is hereby instructed to use the following references provisionally for all purposes within the Council of Europe pending settlement of the

4800:

instead of Serbian Republic, to mention just four examples. None of Skopje's supporters can proffer a valid reason why the same convention can't be applied here. As for the "common" English name, 13 years is hardly long enough to establish what is common usage, especially when that usage either

4584:

Hm, what about the large portion of the ancient Macedonian population that accepted the Slavic language in the Middle Ages? The language the original ancient Macedonians spoke is the most relevant, when you're making such parallels. You are actually assuming that only the Greek influence on the

3106:

simply makes the point that the Slav-speaking population of Macedonia were not regarded as ethnic "Macedonians" until fairly recently. That is a valid point to make, even if you find it irritating. And the fact that Greek-speakers were not in the majority among the Macedonian peasantry does not

2072:

I completely agree that the supposed Macedonian occupation is completely insane. Actually, it is written in the Macedonian Constitution, that the Republic has no territorial pretensions on any foreign country. Is it absurd to say, for example, that "the ethnic Macedonians form a minority of the

1340:

Paletakis, thank you for proving that you're unable to participate in a healthy dialogue, you know, of the kind where people answer in respect to what has actually been said to them, reaching thus a mutual communication. The name "Macedonians" has been invented and used by people who recognised

1068:

are so desperate to link a historical background to their artificial nation and their vary according to the circumstances. In other words, the fact that Slavo-Macedonians refer to themselves as Macedonians is something completely irrelevant to what they actually are in reality. In most academic

933:

Paletakis, beleive me, I understand your concerns over VMORO's "we" attitude, but nevertheless, he has the right to it, whether we (me, and you) like or not. My primary objection to VMORO's reasons was putting the Macedonian nation into quotation marks. Some of VMORO's activities can be seen as

361:

Yeah, you're right that 'areas' of comparability might be better, because 'levels' does imply that certain elements are more important---though I think certain elements are more important. The most parallel cases, of course, are the ones where a newer people have taken on the name of a previous

2955:

Eccentrics such as that anonymous Vasil Ilyov do not constitute the majority of the Macedonian's opinion. Macedonian people clearly recognize the difference between the ancient and the modern Macedonian language. That's what I actually ment when saying that you're "underestimating my nation" -

1624:

What was the motivation behind choosing the name "Macedonia" for FYROM? Maybe it might be relevant to look at any documentated evidence of the thought process behind this. I wonder why it wouldn't have been safer to choose the name "Rome" for the country. That way they could have a much better

471:

Since, the US government has not used the term "Macedonian Slavs" since 2001, and states that 64,2% of the inhabitants of RoM (PeopleX) are "Macedonians", (plus the USA recognizes the RoM under its constitutional name) - does this actually mean that the US recognizes People X as "Macedonians",

4962:

Dear FlavrSavr, the only way to read this discussion page is through the history link . You disagree about that 1923 "plan". What about the constitutional changes that your country have done the last decade? You do remember what quotes have been removed and I do suppose that you can see the

3715:

Considering that the discussion is almost completely compromised, this is the best decision. The panel of arbitrators should, however, be very well prepared as the question is not just a mere question of denomination - it is above all a question of politics and it is as politically laden as a

2470:

handle Macedonia nationals? There are other regions with the same name as countries, but without this problem introduced by Greece as a way of laying claim to a people that Hellenes didn't even consider Greek (they thought Macedonians were barbarians, so why should we let Greeks get away with

2407:

The first expressions of a separate X identity actually go back a few decades further than Tito, but that's not even the real issue. Denying their existence as a separate nation is not the policy of the Greek government. Greece respects their right to self-determination, as long as it doesn't

1703:

To the user who consistenly tries to change the number of the Macedonian Slavs in Greece to 962: The numbers regard the number of INDIGENOUS Macedonian Slavs with Greek citizenship, what you quote is the number of legal emigrants from RoM living in Greece. If you had paid any attention to the

195:

Macedonian Slav historians claim that their people were the descendants of the ancient Macedonians who mixed with slavs when they invaded the Balkan peninsula, but this is strongly disputed by Greek historians, who claim that the ancient Macedonian was just one more of the Greek states. Greek

98:

of all, considering the fact that the most interested users in this article are Greeks, Bulgarians (having a long history of denying the very existence of Macedonians) or Macedonians, while also having in mind that Greek and Bulgarian users of the English Knowledge are far more numerous - the

5172:

I hope the wiki Greeks don't come flaming at this, I understand it may go against their principled understanding of politics - but real life in the international political insitutions is much softer and measured than some of then seem to appreciate, or that is evident by some of the official

5153:

The catch is that RoM must respond if anyone from the UN or other member country delegations requests: "Can we have a comment/report from FYROM" - then their delegate must respond or take note and cannot ignore or use this as an excuse to ignore, in the sense of "that's not us, why bother?".

249:

The problem is, in the case of Macedonian Slavs, there is no proof or even a strong indication that they have any direct ancient Macedonian heritage (words/language elements; notable genetic element; or even customs). The French are directly linked to the Franks by the fact that the Frankish

5142:

On more than a one occasions I've been to UN meetings and have had discusions about how does this FYROM/RoM business work. I know that this is only marginally relevant to this article, but it is an illustration about how far away from everyday realities the anti-Macedonian position is here.

2103:

Greeks and Bulgarians living in the region Macedonia also have the right of ethnic self-determination, they choose to declare themselves as Greeks and Bulgarians, not Macedonians. There would be a real problem if they too wanted to declare themselves as Macedonians in ethnic terms, but they

1139:

And is it any wonder why they want to be called Macedonians? Slavs are known to lack Slavic pride. We always hear how the Croats are "not in fact a Slavic people, we descend from ancient Iranians", and so on and so forth. This is a common tendency among Slavic speakers. Many seek to connect

2511:

Dear Dionyziz, you claim that you would allow for Macedonians to call themselves as they like but that for the sake of clarity, they should call themselves Macedonian Slavs. Have you considered the following two possibilities: 1. The present article "Macedonian Slavs" could also be titled

3421:

Vergina, this argument has been gone through before: the Macedonian Royals were of Greek descent, that is known, but there is still uncertainty whether the Macedonians could be considered Hellenic. I am of Greek descent on my paternal lineage (the Hellenized version of my name would be

1091:

its expression in the use of the the name "Macedonian" documented - this can and should be noted as an indication of a particular POVs, but not as a title of a Knowledge entry. Thus your suggestion is completely off topic. Now please go and join the work and discussion at the article

1350:, a region which has little if anything at all to do with Macedonia. It reminds me of the Danish-made Feta which is called "SALAKIS", another a pseudo-Cretan name, written in a ridiculous ancient Greek font in order to fool French consumers into believing that it's the real thing... 175:

OK, I see that the article was changed during my previous comment. It seemed to me that the facts section was to be left permanent by the wikipedia admins, while it was obvious that some facts were missing. In addition, I will post several objections to the structure of this poll.

3612:

For the sake of accuracy: Rainbow Party is not so "Skopje-aligned", because contrary to what they were expected to do, they were among the first to declare that they support a no-border-changes policy. This has brought a clash between them and the official FYROM administration.

1978:, not Macedonians, not Bulgarians, not Serbs, nothing at all. The term "Macedonian Slavs" is not meant to mark any kind of nation. In fact, if you go deeper into the problem, you will see that Greek nationalists simply call them Slavs or various aggressively depreciating terms. 4648:

lexicon of Hesychius which includes Macedonian words about a century before Slavic arrival---though some words doesn't necessarily prove language survival as long as those who passed down the words remembered that they were Macedonian words---but an AD survival is possible.

1466:

Ok, this is beginning to look like a personal dispute, so I'm not intending to continue. However you seem to ignore the fact that this poll is actually forcing out Greek POV, although, it is quite obvious that this is baseless - what is wrong with Macedonians (nationality)?

1360:, I never said that this argument has no political context. It has an all political, historical, practical and cultural context (and the list can go on). Basically to someone who has fundamental historical knowledge on the term "Macedonia", it's pretty self-explanatory why 3743:

No, it's a question of nomenclature. The problem is precisely that two groups of nationalists insist on taking a trivial matter of naming as a deadly insult to their machismo; the last thing we need is to transfer that sort of thinking to a neutral and independent panel.

2471:

stealing their conqueror's heritage?) Tajiks, Uzbeks, etc, all extend further than their nations as ethnic group coverage. The former non-viable country of the Rhineland didn't cover the entire Rhine valley, Turkey certainly doesn't cover the traditional turkish region...

1346:

understandable). What's most pathetic about you is that in order to desperately promote your national myths about a fictional huge Slav Macedonian minority being hidden in Northern Greece, you chose a username that would sound like a real Greek name and stupidly enough a

2132:

from the national flag. Doesn't this mean that the "natural" national impulse tends towards such irredentism? Isn't Greece's relative strength the real reason these territorial pretensions are "impossible", rather than a genuine lack of such sentiments among the people

1758:

insert those edits and references. I mean, Helsinki Watch is a credible organization, right? However, take it easy with that attitude man - if you're on the ball maybe its cooler to just do the edit for the article's sake: what's the point of being one-up on an anon?

654:

luck (but they didn't, so stop whinning you Hellenic Republicans!). What right does anyone have to call them anything else? What right has Knowledge to promote an externally imposed and political name? Would it not be contentious if Knowledge carried an article about

3897:

for an article. The appropriation of the name "Macedonians" only for the present population of RoM is unjustified and absolutely unacceptable. And as far as I am concerned, I will appeal such a decision as long as the world turns. And I will be far from the only one.

2359:

Thanks for the fuller translation. I'm wondering who originated that alleged etymology. The article should definitely make it clear that it is a speculation (& I'm sure it's wrong). Does that idea emanate from a linguist at least? I wouldn't assume that it does.

233:+ "They think that is their basic human right" or something in that sense? I'm not sure because i'm rather biased by definition (I guess): This might be insinuating, cause it sort of puts People X in a position of a victim, although they definitely think that way. -- 1954:"occupation" and expel the entire "occupying" Greek population, though these loonies are far more numerous and vociferous in the diaspora than they are in the FYROM itself.) Don't confuse the Greek and Bulgarian positions, they are in fact diametrically opposed.-- 3843:

found, someone will be offended. "Macedonians" without a qualifier is clearly not a suitable name, as there are multiple meanings of the term "Macedonians", but I would expect that the panel that I suggested would find a suitable qualifier to disambiguate it. --

2882:

What's up next? Well, you know, we were working on an atomic bomb, specifically designed to attack Athens, and and a brainwashing TV program that will cause Greek Macedonians to ally with us, when our super-troopers would launch the final offensive. Mwhahaha!

2660:

There are like 15 or 20 news articles on the BBC site with the refference "Macedonian Slavs", they stopped when they realized how utterly stupid was this term. (I guess there was some Greek lobying in all this) Besides, you seem to be ignoring your statements

2343:

ecause of the Great Mother cult which was practised not only in Macedonia and the Balkans, but also on a broader region the word Makedonia is a coin word from Make (mother) and Don (land), on the ancient Macedonian language. Therefore, Macedonia means Mother

3664:

I've come to the conclusion that a RfC vote is the wrong way to go about deciding this sort of question. There is, however, an alternative - to put disputed names in the hands of a committee of neutral editors - and I'll work up some proposals for that. --

303:

an ethnicon originally, since it is based on Vespucci's name. See, if 'Americans' was the name of a Native American tribe that the U.S. citizens usurped/adopted, that would be a solid parallel case. Maybe we might consider adding 'levels' of comparability.

4064:

By "Modern", I just mean "Present day", i.e. current usage of the word. Regardless of it's historical accuracy, if everyone agrees that a large majority of the world now uses the term "Macedonians" to refer to the inhabitants of FYROM, then why not rename

387:

of the genetic links to the original bearers of the name. If a person feels that he's a Macedonian, he is Macedonian by any means. Yes, several other peoples inhabit this region, but none of them uses the word "Macedonian" in ethnic terms, except PeopleX.

5100:

A well known case in the Republic of Macedonia. This is a good example exactly why we shouldn't be using Macedonian Slavs term. This wasn't a resolution, it was only a reccomendation that was immediately cancelled due to mass NGO organized protest called

113:

However, "Macedonian Slavs" also has ambiguities - Bulgarians, Serbs etc who live in geographical Macedonia are Slavs, and (geographical) Macedonians, and therefore also "Macedonian Slavs". It also isn't the most commonly used term by the ethnic group in

3198:

The UN is not an encyclopedia, though, and rarely deals in classical history. There is a disambiguation here that the UN doesn't have to deal with, but we do: There are an ancient people called the Macedonians as well, so at the very least we must use

2119:

You are misinterpreting me. I did not speak of any "ethnically pure, vacuumed ethnic groups". I was simply referring to the continuous and unbroken presence over the course of millennia of people who have lived in Macedonia and have identified as both

4963:

similarities with that "plan". Now, the destabilization. It has been mentioned before, the existance of two Koreas and two Germanys etc. Ask yourself how those countries were split apart, check history and think about it. Can you see a pattern there?

2708:

At first Macedonians were polite if distant to the many British and Americans here. They saw the UK, in particular, as its ally in a battle against rebels who wanted to partition the country into two enclaves - one for ethnic Albanians, the other for

1127:

have nothing to do with ancient Macedonians but the example that I brought up does, because it was an argument against the childish argument "Macedonians Slavs should be called Macedonians because that's how they want it". It aimed to explain how

613:

VMORO, I find your concerns unnecessary. If we are to distinguish people X from other people inhabiting this region we can use Macedonians (nationality) or Macedonians (ethnic group). The Ancient Macedonians article should redirect to the current

362:

people, even though there is no demonstrated linguistic, cultural link (not much of a direct genetic link either, but this is harder to prove---also "ancient Macedonian genes" could have entered via intermediaries: Greeks, maybe Albanians, etc.).

4034:

I think I'll have to correct you, Ancient Macedonians become Greek-speaking in time, some historians argue that they had a distinct language before that. Ah, history again. Whatever. Not meant to trigger another infinite discussion, just a note.

2579:

The make up of the population of Yugoslavia at the time of World War Two was extremely complex. Broadly speaking, there were two main ethnic groups - the Serbs and the Croats - plus three other smaller ethnic groupings - Albanians, Macedonians,

1786:

met a "Slavo-phone" in their lives? Oh, I know, it's because of those cursed Greeks. They are hiding them so well and don't allow them to speak their languages so nobody has ever realised that they exist. I bet those hairy Greeks smell bad too.

4093: 4821:

used for hundreds of years, though admittedly not for people X) and there's no confusion with another ethnic group or country called Macedonians or Macedonia. Let's face it, the main issue that you're concerned about is whether they have the

3462:

Yeah, but even though I don't believe the ancient Macedonians were Greek doesn't mean I will vote in support of people X being called Macedonians---nope, I can't do that. By the way, some of those who voted don't enough edits to qualify: see

399:

I can tell you from personal knowledge (in Los Angeles) as well as accepted knowledge that the Mexican people are extremely mixed, with many of them looking more Native American (Aztec, Mayan) than Spaniard. In other words, many of them are

1423:

would be the best option; the term Macedonian Slavs is considered by many people X offensive, while Macedonians (nationality) is not. Also, notice that we are not suggesting that people X shouldn't be called Macedonians! The issue is about

263:

Despite the lack of demonstrable ancient Macedonian heritage, it is still possible for Macedonian Slavs to be called Macedonians simply because they inhabit that geographical region. But this would extend to all inhabitants of that region.

5117:

everywhere on the main CoE website as "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia", and your assertion that the resolution was withdrawn is refuted by the fact that its main provision is still studiously enforced, inverted commas and all.--

383:. (I have pointed several of them, see the archive if you're interested). On the other hand, Greeks and Albanians are no less mixed than the "Macedonian Slavs", so a person can claim that he's a Greek, Bulgarian, Albanian, or Macedonian, 4971:

I know that, but I was only drawing attention to that problem, which, sadly, still exists. As for the other,, no one sane in the Republic of Macedonia, has territorial pretensions over the region of Macedonia, considering that would be

5034:

of "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" Examples: the government of "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia", the police of "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" citizen of "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia"

2737:

I've already pointed out that after that, they are almost exclusively referred to as "Macedonians", and I'm not going to further debates on this topic, wasting my time to correct someone's attitude towards reality. I'm having a small

1443:

is the most rational and NPOV choice. Actually it is seems that this poll is giving space for ethnic majorization, which is far from "describing debates fairly" (NPOV). I'm very glad to hear some common sense in this debate, finally.

2204:

May I ask that if "slav" is slur to slavomacedonians why "greek" do you think is not slur to the greek macedonians. (If the name "Macedonian Slavs" of the article change to "Macedonians" it will be very offencive to greek and simply

1217:, you too can help with Wiki-kiddie-pedia: please go and start a page on "Slavic pride (not)". There you can explain your biggoted opinions and give us your esteemed insight in swooping generalizations about assorted Balkan bipeds.-- 618:

article. I really don't see any rational, legal, moral, historical or practical reason why Macedonians shouldn't be called Macedonians, except for maybe proving that they are a "nation" in quotation marks. Maybe we should call them

3409:

The most important of all those arguments is that someone lives in county named "Makedonija" and he wants to be called "Mekedonac". In the name of what someother interdict this name because likewise to substantive (antecedent)

748:

Please, VMORO, who the heck is "we"? Maybe you're representing someone? If so please tell me, I'd love to know. Are you an organization of some sort because your pseudo sure sounds like one? Maybe you represent Knowledge.org?

2788:

This problem is similar to the "Palestinian issue". Knowledge has utterly failed to identify the true Palestinians. It can't do so, and never will. The articles should merely describe the major POVs about who really owns the

1043:

Anyway, my problem is more with the usage outside of Knowledge. I guess in Knowledge it wouldn't make much of a difference if the term "Macedonian" is used, since Knowledge doesn't have much political influence in any case.

103:, the neutral users of this page would see the extremely biased article already called Macedonian Slavs, along with "facts" that I believe are giving far more weight to the Greek POV than it is actually accepted in reality. 5129:

People in Northern Greece call themselves Macedonians and they have strong Greek identity. Are n't those Macedonians entitled to use those terms? Should we answer people of FYROM "Don't you (steal) MACEDONIA (from) me!" ?

908:

For the sake of fairness, "we" is often used on Knowledge to mean "we the writers of Knowledge", and there's nothing presumptuous in asking "how are we going to do something". It's not like he said "we prefer it this way".

1396:

people" if you wanted to be fair. You're also calling me a liar, while you obviously do know that this article is not about the name of the country, but about the name of the people. While the Republic of Macedonia name

4217:

Goce Delchev:We must struggle for the autonomy of Macedonia and the district of Adrianople in order to preserve them in their integrity which is a stage to their future incorporation to the common Bulgarian fatherland."

3107:

negate their continued and unbroken presence in the region over a period of millennia. Moreover, the maps belie the substantial Greek presence in the urban areas throughout Macedonia, not just Chalcidice as you claim.--

1384:. Are you really extremely ignorant or intentionally lying as usual? The name "Republic of Macedonia" will never be officially recognised, unless of course FYROM someday decides to stay forever outside NATO and the EU. 520: 1687:

You seem to be underestimating my honesty, just like you're underestimating my nation. I've started complaining even before the poll actually started (check out the archive). I still think that the poll is a bad idea.

1243:

can do what he likes and he can also label others however he likes. You don't have to agree with him, of course, nor do you have to respect his "right to self-determination" if you feel he does not respect yours. (The

922:. According to the article under discussion a lot of things are not Macedonian (for example Macedonians) so it would be a big project and perhaps some "We"-ner could write it on behalf of the writers of "We"-kipedia.-- 4520:

Because that would reflect the continuity between the ancient Macedonians who spoke Greek and the modern Macedonians who speak Greek. But the primary issue here is what to call people X and their country. What do you

3864:

Well - that is something I wanted to hear. And anyway, my point was only that the panel has to take in mind the possible political repercussions of their decision. The rest of my comment - as an answer to FlavrSavr.

457:

A somewhat important note: Out of the top results of the Google search "Macedonian Slavs" there is a number of mirror Knowledge sites (absoluteastronomy.com and others). Plus, there are some greek sites, as well.

4669:

I don't know how many are in Hesychius. It's to be expected that some words would outlive the language, so Hesychius might be inconclusive regarding language survival---unless he noted it was still being spoken.

3676:

I agree. In a case like this, where the vote is dominated by partisans for either side - the numerical result is meaningless and shouldn't be used to determine the outcome. Your alternative would be much better.

3538:

slur that nationalists of the X persuasion hurl at Macedonian Slav-speakers (and even their non-Slavophone descendants) who identify as Greeks. The very same people who preach "self-determination", nonetheless.--

1641:. What wonders the world provides, when a sub-national unit secceeds and wishes to translate it's former sub-national political division name into the name of the country it became! Will wonders never cease? :) 4231:"We considered creating an organization that would follow the model of the revolutionary organization in Bulgaria before the Liberation, we considered following the example of Botev,Levsky, Benkovsky etc."(1905) 934:

inconsistent, but in one thing he has been seriously consistent - that is denying that Macedonians, are actually, a real nation. As for the neutrality of the current article, I do believe that there should be a

4431:

There is no logical reason to reseve Macedonia for Greece in your argument. What would you call Prussia, given your stance that the Prussians are not the Germanics who lost East Prussia to the USSR? If we have

5169:

technical naming convention: it is not a statement of politcal thought or siding in the international fora from a daily perspective. Of course, its very political in the country capitals - this I do not deny.

378:

to decipher. The name "Macedonian Slavs" is too unusual since it ignores the ethnological complexities of this region - the mixing of a wide range of ethnic groups that have inhabited the region of Macedonia,

5158:

prescription from the Greek Foreign Office to react with a usual statement which they keep in their pocket and heartlessly file with the particular meeting's secretary, often much to their own embarassment.

2380:

The Egyptians - Macedonians parallel works pretty well, because, although their language is Arabic (the peopleX's language is Macedonian, officialy, not Macedonian Slavic), and although there are groups (the

2764:

to identify any group as the "true PQRS" (to use another ethnic identity variable). Any attempt to settle the issue is doomed to failure, which is the primary reason Jimmy Wales and Larry Sanger devised the

4690:. The article "Republic Macedonia"should be renamed in "Republika Makedonija". "Republika Makedonija" should be untranslatable. That is the Constitutions name of the country. See UNO proposal (Nimitz). 3210:

I actually, happen to agree with that, if you see my previous posts. However, the UN references to people X, are of great significance to portray, just how much "Macedonian Slavs" is accepted in reality.

548:" is much more appropriate considering the ethno-genetical complexities of this region. I'm not sure whether the following is an unconcious bias or a more neutral POV: I found it troublesome that People X 751:

This is one serious Balkan sickness - using third person plural. I thought only the Queen of England called herself "we". Or was it "We"?. Just in case you are some kind of royalty, I will title you with

157:

As the wording says, if the option "Macedonians" win, the People X will be called "Macedonians" and the articles will be properly dissambiguated, so I believe that it already says what you want it to say.

481:

Similar Google searches should be done with all English speaking domains: .au, .uk etc. This should be done with the un.org domain, also. (a tiny indication of the stance of most UN official documents -

1408:, it is only here to state facts about them (among the facts, of course, is that their right to call themselves is disputed by a considerable minority, in world terms). Please see NPOV, for details. -- 2552:"popularity in" 2001 (by BBC and CNN), and was very soon after replaced with Macedonians, by the same televisions. As you obviously think that World media = Greek media, here are some examples of how 160:

This debate has been going on for years. It has caused many edit wars and has consistently involved personal attacks, ethnic slurs and other forms of bad taste. A poll seems the only available option.

3886:

not a suitable name. Macedonians (region) option should also be considered. However, every qualifier mentioned above sounds good to me, except maybe "Modern Macedonians"... that is rather strange. --

2800:

This is not a blog, not an opinion board, it's an encyclopedia. When there are multiple POVs about what's what, we can only describe each POV fairly and accurately. Let's do that for people X, too.

519:. I personally feel that the article is far from neutral, due to various reasons, (mainly because of poor involvement of Macedonians on Knowledge). You can see some evidence I have elaborated in the 515:

This will be a rather unpopular one. Although Knowledge tends to be more and more neutral over time, and is often used as a reference (as an active Wikipedian, I feel good about that), I think that

2099:

What special status are you actually talking about? I must assure you, no one sane in the Republic of Macedonia, has territorial pretensions over the region of Macedonia, considering that would be

4529:

It's no use saying the original ancient Macedonians spoke Greek if that hasn't been proven. It makes a person look biased and dogmatic when they say things like that (doesn't help this argument).

5150:

niether UN beurocrat nor country delegate, not event he Greek delegation, can explain failure to act or respond on the basis of "I don't know who this delegation represents" or "who was that?".

4846:. And this is becoming too chat-based (I admit that I have tried to make a point too, on several ocassions, got carried away by emotions), this perhaps will be my last violation of that policy: 3546:

Alright, I got a question: how many Slavophone Macedonians would you estimate are in Greek Macedonia, if you want to take a guess? I bet there's more than the Greeks claim, but I don't know.

2700:

Equally predictably the far smaller number of Macedonians who haven't left this predominantly Albanian city with their families, spoke of the just deserts that the rebel fighters were getting.

3168:- a text by Marko Hajdinjak, uses "Macedonian Slavs" in one ocassion, while it also undoubtedly refers to peopleX as Macedonians four times, in two of them term "ethnic Macedonians" is used. 2773:

The best we can do is to continue what the article has done a fairly good job of doing: outlining and describing the conflict about the ethnic identity and rightful name of, er, People X.

200:. All ancient Macedonian inscriptions on monuments, temples etc. are in Greek. The ancient Macedonian religion was the ancient Greek religion and they adored the same heroes like Hercules. 5086:'s false assertion that the name of people X is not a matter of international dispute, as the UN recognises people X as "Macedonians". In fact, the only international organisation with an 3186:

part" of the poll. I will do that, unless somebody provides me evidence that the UN does not refer to peopleX as Macedonians. Also, It would be good to stress that the term Macedonians is

3931:

from the ancients - which is controversial to say the least - and it's also much too imprecise. Who would you mean by "Modern" Macedonians? - Greeks, Macedonian Slavs, Bulgarians or what?

2684:

The battle for day to day existence has left many with little sympathy for the Albanians' plight. Some Macedonians warn that they too are ready to bear arms to keep their nation together.

2017:

Greece's borders is an entirely different matter. Greece has never denied the existence of a South Slavic nation distinct from the Bulgarians and Serbs. It simply rejects the notion of a

1922:

Theathenae, your mixing things up. Slav, in itself, is not a slur, Macedonian Slav is, just as English Norman or Swedish Viking would be when referring to an English or Swedish person. --

2742:

music session to forget all this nonsense and hatred towards "PeopleX" that I have encountered today, and then I'm going out. After all, I'm a perfectly normal ape. Peace, to you all. --

4984:

Do you believe that ordinary people of Eastern Germany hated the ordinary people of West Germany? Right now we have one united Germany. Can you understand the motives behind such moves?

4816:

foreign name into English, which is why we call the Deutsch the Germans but we call the Xhosa the Xhosa, for instance. It's mostly a matter of historical accident and linguistic needs.

1011:. What the rest of the world thinks is secondary and any disapproving view can be reflected under its own subtitle in the article - but then that POV is attributed fairly and squarely. 4872:

is not only the commonly used version of the constitutional name of RoM, it is the official English translation of "Skopje's" constitutional name after the United States recognized

3337:

It is a fact that the slavic population FYROMs are not the Macedonian (ethnicity). Whether the Macedonian (ethnicity) Greeks are or not is not discussion-subject here.Nevertheless!

2572:

the list continues Moldovans versus Russians, Hungarians versus Romanians, Macedonians versus Greeks - these are all Christians and I haven't yet touched on Rwanda and Sierra Leone.

3554:

Nationalists of the X persuasion would say there are over 1 million "Macedonians" in "Aegean Macedonia", out of a total population of just under 2.5 million. They'd also say that

1432:

or would it be confusing? Adding nationality in parentheses would definately make this clear, and people X will keep the name they want others to call them -- as simple as that. --

2564:

Many hope the vote will help cement the peace process which brought an end to last year's conflict between Orthodox Christian Macedonians and the minority Muslim ethnic Albanians.

1543:

I never said that Greece can't have a prefecture called Macedonia, only that Greece cannot claim exclusive rights to the name. Besides, how many *real* (traditional ethnic group)

1648:

occupied part of the region traditionally associated with the Baltic tribe of Prussians, but whose citizenry were Germanic and not Baltic at all, and spoke German, not Prussian.

2219: 949:

One argument I see against the term Macedonian Slav is that it supposedly "ignores" the genetic mix of People X. That's a wrong way of thinking (if anybody was thinking that).

4549:

I agree that they may likely have all taken up Greek by the time Rome conquered Macedon, that's why I said original ancient Macedonians---and now you defined what you meant.

1974:

recently and the estimate of 10,000 people is just a number thrown out there because of political pressure. So, according to the Greeks, there is no nation there to speak of

3693: 3297: 4302:

Choose your examples with more care. The Armenians actually have territorial claims on what they call "western Armenia" and they do so in the most straightforward manner.

4077:. I'm sure there are plenty of words which have had their meanings change over the years. The important thing to to accept modern day usage, WITHOUT distorting history. -- 2450:

Belgians (and that the Flemings were irrelevant; the more hotheaded "Belgians" would openly say that Flanders should be "liberated" and the Flemings should leave). As for

1644:

But seriously, as Macedonia occupies part of the region generally known by Greeks as Macedonia, there's not a very good reason why it can't use the name, considering that

4751:

Agree. Use "Macedonians" for the inhabitants of the greater Macedonia region, and "Makedonski" (or the appropriate native term) for the people that define themselves so.

3882:

international organization or books refer to the modern non-People X inhabitants of Macedonia as "Macedonians", so I wouldn't be so confident about that "Macedonians" is

2797:

are the major claimants: they're the loudest, they have the widest political support, etc. But determining the veracity of their claims is outside Knowledge's purview.

2596:

Al-Jazeera broadcast a statement by the militant group called the Islamic Army in Iraq which claimed it had killed two Macedonians whom it accused of spying for the US.

1522: 5106: 3200: 2641:

distinction between people X and the Albanians, only to recede when the conflict had fizzled out? Is this article not about people X specifically as an ethnic group?--

2165: 2815: 1187:. Good on them. The rest seem to try to convince the world that they're something they're not. It's an alien concept to me, but I guess I'm not a Slav to understand. 1132:

base their claims on national myths rather than logic. It's very relevant and crystal clear. Whether you refuse or fail to understand it, it's your personal problem.

4074: 3518:

you". It's interesting that you seem so proud of your forebears assimilating as Rumanians when you're so hostile towards Aromanians who have assimilated as Greeks.--

3133: 2454:, the Israelis have consciously rejected the term to describe themselves, whereas the (non-people X) Macedonians have never stopped calling themselves Macedonians.-- 2177: 2263:

At the same time, it voted down the amendments urging the Council to recognize FYROM under its constitutional name (139 in favor, 398 against and 26 abstentions).

374:

are usually refered to as Mexicans. Moreover, there are several other towns and a US state, New Mexico, bearing the same name. As for the genetic links, they are

213:, not a mention of the attitude of Demosthenes towards Macedonians, etc. I'm not going to a discussion whether Ancient Macedonians were Greeks or not but to add " 4565:

Greek from the very beginning. But I will give you the benefit of the doubt, as it doesn't change the essence of my argument one iota. And sorry for calling you

3506:

Well, I couldn't rise against anything if I wasn't even born yet. Maybe they were busy. I don't even know much about that phase of history, so I can't comment.

3324: 2351:) that are more likely to have more in common with the "true" Egyptians, their right to declare themselves seems indisputed, while peopleX's right is denied. -- 404:. They also generally acknowledge and take pride in their Native American heritage. In some parts of Mexico, the native pre-Spanish languages are still spoken. 5012:

difference which has arisen over the name of the State in question. They are to be used in all documents prepared by the Secretariat of the Council of Europe.

683:. Traitors to their own cultural and historical richness because they would rather deny themselves than embrace others: a history of the Balkans in a nutshell. 4512:

Tell me one reason, why should Macedonians be reserved for the greek inhabitants of the region instead of Makedoniai, or whatever the greek translation is. --

816:"Any potential ambiguity of "Macedonians" can be easily avoided in prose. Ambiguity in article names can be avoided by following standard naming conventions." 345:

I guess you're right on the Canadians. However, it was ment to point that a nation's name might arrive from totally distant ethnonyms. I think that Americans

4759:

That won't work. We don't use "Russki" for the Russians or "Hrvati" for the Croatians so why use "Makedonski" for the Macedonians? Remember that this is the

4505: 3415: 3411: 3063:,the Macedonian revolutionary organisation,was likewise a Bulgarian organization. See "Invitation from the central revolutionary commitee to all Bulgarians" 2472: 2385:) that are more likely to have more in common with the "true" Egyptians, their right to declare themselves seems indisputed, while peopleX's right is denied. 1649: 1612: 1529: 517:

it should be somehow emphasized that the current article is not to be used as only reference, or at least that it should be treated with a dose of suspicion

4070: 1577: 1549: 5008:

References concerning "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" and persons belonging to a minority or speaking a minority language outside the country

3366: 1704:

discussion before (you haven't), you would have found out that there was a dispute whether the article should include only the Greek government estimate (

3446:

Obviously, the very fact that Alexander the I made it clear that he was of Greek descent is because he was a King of the non-Greek ancient Macedonians.

2692:

he Macedonians say ethnic Albanian fighters in the Presevo valley in southern Serbia are trying to spread the conflict across the border into Macedonia.

2506: 1766:

I see lively discussion in this section and I would like to draw your eyes further up the page, to the currently ongoing poll. See top of the page.

572:

also differ "in a cultural or ethnic sense" from the ancient Macedonians can also soften the somewhat deterministic tone of the entire paragraph. --

3406:

Greeks have province "MACEDONIA" and people called "Macedonans". Those names is not identical. Greek`s distraint for useing this name is unmeaning

3120:

The United Nations clearly recognize PeopleX as Macedonians. You can check out the Google search that Zocky has performed - while Macedonians gave

2368: 2091:

does not. And it's downhill from then on: special status means special rights; people X are the Chosen People. "Macedonia for the Macedonians".--

3633: 3115: 2780:

ethnic groups in Macedonia / Macedonian ethnic groups (which would attempt to list and describe the various groups in and around the historical

2005:

within its borders. It says nothing and cares less about their actual or perceived or supposed ethnic origins. In this way it is very much like

1474:

The problem with "Macedonians (nationality)" is the fact that the name of the nation in question is in fact a matter of international dispute.--

4742: 4696: 4316: 4273: 4116: 3644: 3464: 3393: 3304: 3268: 3242: 3103: 3087: 3068: 2831: 2665:". Here are some news articles, about the supposed "confusion" what the word Macedonians refers to, before, and in the beginning of the crisis: 2500: 2395: 2291: 2272: 2210: 1056:(a nation with no official name yet) have to be referred to as "Macedonians", because that's how they recognise themselves. On the other hand, 5028:

The inverted commas are an integral pan of the reference. When the term appears within a sentence, the (the) must be written with a small (t)

4725:

are offensive slurs that are tantamount to a gross violation of their right to self-determination and their human rights in general. Now that

5076: 4826: 4768: 4671: 4650: 4596: 4550: 4530: 4049: 4002: 3998: 3983: 3844: 3780: 3697: 3666: 3547: 3527: 3507: 3486: 3468: 3447: 3440: 2372: 2361: 2334: 2323: 2316: 2309: 2302: 1896: 1304: 1290: 1214: 1199: 1164: 1157: 1116: 1107: 1086:

you are getting confused: this article is not about ancient Macedonians, but about a contemporary nationality that designates themeselves as

1079: 1045: 1035: 1031: 994: 962: 426: 409: 363: 335: 326: 305: 283: 265: 255: 2976: 2157:

Macedonian (Nationality) can be considered hostal. Turks lived (occupied) on this land for 5 centuries but we dont find them a treat now. --

2073:

region of Macedonia"? When it comes to the ethnic composition of the region of Macedonia, it has drastically changed in the 20th century. --

1672:. That will spare "everybody" (the admins and the nationalists) from trouble. Now, I'll climb up my FYROM tree and parasite some bananas. -- 3426: 2322:"Ottamu, Makedonia oznachuva Majka Zemja" (roughly transliterated), means, so far as I can tell, "Therefore, Macedonia means Mother Land". 2001:

use to define people X, not the official policy of the Greek state - a policy which simply does not exist. The Greek state recognises only

1895:' is merely a 6th century tribesman"?? All 300 million of them living in Europe today? OK, now I've heard it all. Where's that Latin Lover 1576:

Latinate tribe? Why do the Germanic Frank-descended and Gaullic-descended French speak a Latin language and not a Germanic or Celtic one?

3678: 705:

and explain why, end of story. To validate that POV in a Knowledge article title is absurd and a denial of its philosophy and principles.

1782:

in Greece, less than 1000 vote for their political party. But you didn't know that did you? How come most Greek Macedonians I know have

1272:.) Call him whatever you like, if it makes you feel better. But you cannot make him call you a Macedonian. Grow up and get used to it.-- 444:

This was done because of similar naming controversies - they have chosen to use the name "Macedonians" instead of "Macedonian Slavs". --

2009:, after which the modern Greek state was modelled after all. The only legally recognised minority is in fact the religious minority of 5161:

When there is no Greek at a UN meeting, the RoM delegation is habitually reffered to as RoM, "Macedonian delegation" and Macedonians.

2394:

debate and make a point on this, bringing up such bad exaples will only makes look rather stupid. I hope the demographics provided by

1740:

Dude, no need for such kind of language. You make it sound like a threat. I mean, go ahead and add the sources, who's gonna stop you?

4045: 4013: 1773:

The FYROM government will also claim that Macedonian Slavs have nothing to do with Bulgarians and they'll give you demographics with

1451:

Yes, of course. Only those who agree with you possess "common sense". The rest of us are to be ignored. It's like we're fresh out of

1060:

scholars claim that eventhough ancient Macedonians clearly viewed themselves as Greeks, they shouldn't be recognised as such because

1052:

Basically the entire debate and the arguments brought up by the Slavic crowd are a comical contradiction. Some people suggested that

701:

this that or the other. At best Knowledge can indicate that certain politcs in some countries chose not to use this term Macedonians

111:, to cite a neutral admin (ChrisO) of Knowledge concerning the issue of the use of "Macedonians Slavs" - which seems quite logical: 81: 76: 71: 59: 5047:

Persons/group: Macedonian(s) accompanied by a footnote reading �Terminology of self-identification used by the person(s) concerned�

4825:

to call themselves Macedonians - but that is entirely a POV issue and isn't something that we as Wikipedians should be deciding. --

1567:

came to Balkans around the 7th century a.D. and all the names Alexander, Phillip etc are of Greek origin and have greek etymology.

99:"Macedonians" option could be simply outnumbered. That does not mean that it this is the majority view of the name of Macedonians. 1285:

Whether generalized or not, it is a noted phenomenon among Slavs. And it relates directly to the situation here. No use trying to

204:

is that when ancient Macedonians as the ruling Greek state conquered the world they spread the Greek civilization and philosophy.

1625:

territortial claim, claiming that they were the modern day Roman empire. :) I wonder if Italy would have had any objections... --

5050:

Adjective: Macedonian (Slav) Examples: Macedonian (Slav) traditions. Macedonian (Slav) associations, Macedonian (Slav) schools

4137: 1658: 1115:

And what the hell does "Macedonians speaking for themselves is the only thing that speaks for itself" mean? Circular nonsense.

3094:

That maps provide a fine evidence that most of the population in northern Greece (except Chalcidice) was in fact non-Greek. --

1498:

Theathenae, we're not discussing what is more important, but whether something is a matter of international dispute or not. --

4936:

The creation of a "Macedonian" ethnicity is an old commintern (1923)plan in order to create territorial claims against Greece

3234: 2529:- quite different from an ethnic conflict. Curiously, 2001 was also the year the Greek media started to refer to people X as 421:

article, mestizos make up an estimated 60% of Mexico's population, and I can tell you that figure is accurate, if not more.

3177:- the only text that refers to peopleX as "Macedonian Slavs" is written by Katerina Limenopoulou, obviously, a person from 2329:

By the way, don't take offense to the term Slavophonic Macedonian, because the language of the modern Egyptians is called

1316:

However, please note Miskin's attitude. That will exactly show us why Greece insists so much on the "Slavs" term. It is a

243: 2717:

The two Macedonian and Albanian parties taking part had shown up and no-one was shouting at each other, the sources said.

936:"The neutrality of this article is disputed" mark in the beginning. If nobody disagrees, I will put it there. So, anyone? 5071:

call states, particularly if political usage conflicts with common usage. Otherwise we wouldn't have an article on the

2956:

they're not that stupid. There's no such thing as Macedonian irredentism towards Greece, except for maybe a handful of

778:

embarassment by hiding behind "we". Just say "I don't understand" or "I don't know". At first it may be difficult, but

493:

Maybe a note should be added somewhere to indicate that only people X use the word "Macedonians" in terms of ethnicity.

3809:

possible solution. Macedonian Slavs and Macedonians without a qualifier are obviously loathed by either of the sides.

3526:

That's because I'm a Latin Lover. But let's not continue this on this talk page. There's plenty other stuff going on.

568:", is more precise (since they did accept the ancient Greek culture). Indication(s), small note(s) that modern Greeks 144:, which should attract more eyes. If you feel that there are other places where it should be advertised, please do so. 2308:

I can't read enough to tell in what manner that alleged etymology is given (as a speculative hypothesis or as fact).

5038:

Adjective referring to culture: Macedonian (Slav) Examples: Macedonian (Slav) traditions. Macedonian (Slav) culture

4337:

One of the ideas non-partisan international observers have toyed with in the past is to use the native Slavic terms

3038: 2416:

language when they show such disdain for the term "Slav" in the ethnonymic context. Why? Finally, I remind you that

2021:

nation. As I understand it, the Greek position is simple: find another name, or at the very least qualify the term

483: 271:

I've copied/pasted your comment in the comments section, and also added few more examples. Hope you don't mind. --

3534:

Well I'll try to make it relevant to the page then. Your attitude towards the Aromanians kinda reminds me of the

3054: 47: 17: 4927: 1680:

I trust you won't be complaining about "ethnic majorisation" now that it appears to be working in your favour.--

2711: 2613: 2611:

As a matter of fact, a growing number of BBC articles uses the term Macedonians as the end of 2001 approaches:

542:

It is plausible and quite possible that People X have inherited much genetic material from ancient Macedonians

3572:

at the last European elections in 2004 in a free, fair and secret ballot. They achieved their best result in

3259:

The name of the state,the name of the nation & the name of language is a matter of international dispute!

3171: 3162: 3144: 196:

historians bring as proof the language of ancient Macedonians, the religion, and the civilization which were

4325: 2828: 2428: 4595:

FlavrSavr, what's your source for that info? Just trying to verify, not necessarily questioning that info.

4244:

Dame Gruev:"...We are Bulgarians and we always work and will work for the unification of the Bulgariandom."

3284:

just the name of the state that is in dispute. Nimetz's proposal includes references to what the people of

1303:

I'm out of here for now. But if I hear another stupid comment from any of you as I step out, I'll be back.

997:, you can think whatever you like is valid, but you're missing the point. This article must represent what 3027: 3017: 2874:

So much for the "Greek-speaking aristocracy and Macedonian-speaking population" theory... What's up next?

2604:

Many ethnic Macedonians, who make up a majority of the population, are unhappy with the electoral changes.

2441:

describe peoples entirely contained within the nations of Belgium and Egypt. Belgium and Egypt occupy the

4896:

The name of the people, was never a matter of international dispute. United Nation recognize people X as

4630: 4110:) are Greek symbols. Here an again saying gives. The flag of FYROM is not "Ethnic Macedonian symbol"! 4084: 3361:

As soon as he had said this, Alexander rode back to the camp, and returned to the station assigned him.

2839: 2621:, and the list of Macedonians is too huge to bother continuing this list... check out for CNN, also... -- 2287: 2184:

with no qualification should remain a more general page like it currently is. --19:06, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)

1600: 1092: 3435:, but I am Romanian myself---that argument is not enough. If you got something more, post it here also: 1941:

If the Greeks wished to negate the existence of people X as a separate nation, they would not call them

1720:, I'll find myself forced to add the other sources, as well - not only the Greek government estimate of 2409: 2236: 1528:

spread across the ancient world by Alexander himself) as exclusively Greek is a distortion of history.

1491:

I'm afraid you're wrong. The name of the state is in fact less important than the name of the nation.--

38: 3288:

should be called, and all these proposals are of course open to negotiation between the two parties.--

2224:

I still don't understand what's your problem with the term Slav Macedonians. So, it doesn't matter if

4661:

words that have survived from ancient Macedonian: κρεβάτι (kreváti, bed) and καράβι (karávi, boat).--

3102:

I doubt the Greek POV matters to you at all; you will continue to ignore it however it is presented.

2582: 2495: 141: 4012:

Agree. However, Macedonians (nationality), is somewhat confusing to me, that is already included in

2930: 1106:

I'm glad to see that you agree that this discussion has nothing to do with the Ancient Macedonians.

5184:

That really brought a tear to my eye, Modi. It's also cute when I affectionately call my X friends

4736:

Do the Fyromian not want to accept the Constitutions name of the state as "Republika Makedonija"?

2686: 4991: 3190:

used (in international media) to describe a person from Northern Greece or Southwest Bulgaria.. --

3032: 4292: 3428: 1852:

sovereign nation; they simply dispute their claim to unqualified use of the term "Macedonian". --

1536:

So of course it follows then that it should be recognised as exclusively Slavic instead? Right.--

4158: 4148: 2996:. 1945 ago no slav people existed as Macedonians.Only Serbs and Bulgars. See ethnographic maps: 1619: 5044:

As regards persons belonging to a minority or speaking a minority language outside the country

4610:"? The ancient Macedonian population accepted no Slavic language. The Macedonians were already 3496:

actually believed people like you would help us rise up against the Turkish yoke. Ts ts ts...--

1428:

here; can Knowledge readers understand that we are talking about the nationality with the term

154:

If you read the above information carefully, you will see that it says what you want it to say.

151:

If you read the above information carefully, you will see that it says what you want it to say.

3403:

Macedonians, wants to be called "MAKEDONCI" and for his state wants to be called "MAKEDONIJA"

2281: 1558:

It is quite annoying to misinterpret ancient history. What's the deal, are you only following

730:, which is awful as well, but at least has some strucuture and maybe hope for a NPOV outcome. 4915:

As for "people like FlavrSavr" and their "deafening silence"... whatever, that was of really

3370: 2173: 1249: 4541:

spoke Greek by the time the Romans arrived. Wouldn't you say they were still ancient then?--

3583:

Their next best result was not even in Macedonia; it was among the Muslim population in the

1198:

do the threatening on this page, since he lives in the Republic and is within firing range.

4842:

Project2501a made a good statement when he said that this poll was used for the purpose of

4138:

http://images.google.de/images?q=Uskub&hl=de&lr=&start=40&sa=N&filter=0

3825: 3749: 2172:

is relatively neutral as well since it implies a connection to the nation in question, the

556:, since that could possibly mean that modern Macedonians cannot be ethnic Macedonians. The 4032:

differentiation. Would you mind explaining the need for Macedonians (nationality) as such?

3250:

The name of the nation is not a matter of international dispute, the name of the state is.

1482:

The name of the nation is not a matter of international dispute, the name of the state is.

726:

and a certain number of its institutions and individuals. The article would then point to

608: 282:

No, no problem. As long as the examples are comparable in the sense intended in the list.

8: 4783: 4717:

proposal is deafening. What I'm really hanging for is for a person X to come out and say

4167:..of an autonomous Macedonia emanating from Bulgaria, but also from Yugoslav Partisan..." 3493: 2824: 2790: 2781: 2588:

Of a population of two million people 62% are Macedonians and a quarter ethnic Albanians.

1548:

Germanys, there are two Irelands. What's the problem with calling this nation Macedonia?

1366: 4614:

Greeks by the time the Slavs arrived. And I'm still waiting for an answer in regards to

3132:

Two are actually excerpts of statements given by individuals in some trials done by the

2168:

so long as it is properly explained who uses this term and who objects to it. The term

209:

character of the ancient Macedonians is in fact disputed by other historians other than

4942:

It is the first step on a wider plan for the destabilization of the area (my favorite)

4416: 3577: 2989: 2574: 3601:

barbarian Greeks have done to them. I really don't know the answer to your question.--

3048: 3002: 2719: 2702: 2694: 2619: 2616: 961:

classification, and I think it is valid. It does not refer to 'Slav' as genetic type.

5072: 3654:

For perhaps the first time ever, I have to agree with you. The evidence posted under

3581: 3043: 2809: 2570:

Monday, 8 September, 2003, 11:39 GMT 12:39 UK: (interview with the Prince of Jordan)

1741: 1708:) or estimates from other sources, which, PLEASE PAY ATTENTION, amount to as high as 1604: 4862:

is, since there isn't an constitutional (official) latinicized version of the name.

4537:

Are you kidding me, Decie? Whatever language the Macedonians spoke in 500 BCE, they

4259: 3064: 2288:

http://mk.wikipedia.org/%D0%9C%D0%B0%D0%BA%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%98%D0%B0

865:

as the first would certainly be an insult to any Hellenic Republican Ape. How about

5217: 5102: 4347: 4066: 4006: 3390: 3345:

greatly at heart the common welfare of Greece, I should not have come to tell you;

3314: 3022: 3007: 2982: 2794: 1779: 1774: 1361: 1129: 1124: 1065: 1053: 4974:

not only morally wrong, but also politically, economically and legally impossible.

4629:

Decie, I am intrigued. I'd like to see your sources regarding the survival of the

4094:

The term "Ethnic Macedonians" or "Macedonians" ,for the Slavs of FYROM, is false!

3919:

around for? Does it span the time period from Ancient Macedonia to present day? --

2101:

not only morally wrong, but also politically, economically and legally impossible.

5193: 5118: 5091: 5059: 4806: 4730: 4679: 4662: 4634: 4623: 4603: 4574: 4542: 4522: 4424: 4296: 3821: 3745: 3622: 3602: 3539: 3519: 3497: 3476: 3455: 3289: 3262:

The name of the state included the name of the nation & name of the language!

3108: 3039:

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/shepherd/races_balkan_shepherd_1923.jpg

2865: 2642: 2538: 2455: 2421: 2330: 2134: 2092: 2054: 1955: 1900: 1828: 1681: 1537: 1492: 1475: 1460: 1273: 1188: 1057: 251: 4126:

The slavs of FYROM are ethnicity Serbs and Bulgarians!Not ethnicity Macedonians!

2997: 2993: 2606: 2598: 2590: 2566: 1322:"Crowds" do not have the right for self-determination. Hope this will end up in 46:

If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the

5185: 5109: 5083: 4977: 4952: 4920: 4706: 4586: 4513: 4496:

which redirects to the Macedonian page above. Then we can start disambiguating

4476:

for an article on the controversy profferred by Greek special interest groups;

4038: 3887: 3584: 3277: 3253: 3212: 3191: 3175:

The politics of ethnic identity in the Balkans in a post Communist power vacuum

3140: 3137: 3095: 3012: 2961: 2910: 2884: 2843: 2743: 2622: 2371:(01:42 8 May 2005) without a reference for it or authoritative name mentioned. 2352: 2297:

I can't read Slavophonic Macedonian, but I think that Wiki article claims that

2249: 2150: 2109: 2074: 2010: 1923: 1892: 1873: 1800: 1760: 1689: 1673: 1499: 1485: 1468: 1456: 1445: 1409: 1357: 1331: 1236: 1218: 1141: 1096: 1016: 1012: 939: 923: 880: 784:

have only self-improvement to look forward to as people will respond better to

628: 573: 524: 503: 502:

That's all I have to say, for now. Sorry, for being such a pain in the butt. --

459: 445: 389: 351: 272: 234: 218: 177: 129: 3369:γένος ειμί τώρχαίον, και άντ' ελευθέρης δεδουλωμένην ουκ αν έθέλοιμι όραν την 3055:

http://www.univ.trieste.it/~storia/corsi/Dogo/tabelle/popolazJugosl1921-31.jpg

2854:

as a dialect of North-Western Greek. So it does lie about the Greek language.

2487:! The Macedonia region took its name from the inhabitants, the Macedonians or 5227: 5131: 4985: 4964: 4752: 4303: 4087: 3960:

Macedonians (geographical) - the inhabitants of the wider region of Macedonia

3614: 3562: 3318: 3204: 2933: 2895: 2875: 2417: 2301:

is from Make + Don (make=mother, don=earth)? That sounds pretty false to me.

2198: 1853: 1591: 1568: 1433: 1172: 4951:... please, although this poll is seemingly absurd, do prevent vandalism. -- 4221: 1439:

I actually don't understand why this poll was conducted, it is obvious that

408:

is not a good parallel, because the Mexican people have strong Aztec links.

4801:

unintentionally or deliberately ignores the history of the use of the name

4658: 4358: 4288: 4078: 4021: 3957:

Macedonian people - the Slavic ethnic group who call themselves Macedonians

3920: 3570: 3436: 3348: 3330: 3178: 3156: 2806: 2513: 2413: 1979: 1841: 1626: 1286: 1257: 588: 5200: 4866:

as a term, cannot be found in any official international documents of RoM.

4256:

See "Invitation from the central revolutionary commitee to all Bulgarians"

3340:

Are Alexander I,king of Macedonia not Greek? See Herodot(Kalliopi IX 45):

3172:

http://unpan1.un.org/intradoc/groups/public/documents/UNTC/UNPAN019075.pdf

3163:

http://unpan1.un.org/intradoc/groups/public/documents/UNTC/UNPAN014972.pdf

3145:

http://unpan1.un.org/intradoc/groups/public/documents/UNTC/UNPAN014972.pdf

5221: 5213: 5206: 4645: 4611: 4607: 4362: 4107: 4029: 4017: 3975: 3386: 3382: 2855: 2829:

http://www.makedonskosonce.com/broevis/2005/sonce570.pdf/50_52_donski.pdf

2484: 2400: 2129: 1788: 1559: 1385: 1370: 1351: 1253: 1240: 1210: 1175:

Lover, so you'd better watch out. I do however agree that the only proud

1133: 1083: 1070: 727: 4945:

People X, are actually CIA agents trying to destroy Greece (my addition)

3908: 3866: 3810: 3799: 3721: 3326: 3028:

http://img57.exs.cx/img57/1241/ResizeofEuropavolkerundsprachenkarte.jpg

3018:

http://img56.exs.cx/img56/5857/VolkerkartevonMittel-undSudosteuropa.jpg

2986: 2850:

Desite what the wikipedia article supports, major academics categorise

2181: 2158: 1767: 1749: 1733: 1452: 1245: 910: 897: 641: 596: 299:. But 'Canadian', AFAIK, was never a Native American ethnicon, nor was 231:

It's what people X call themselvses and wish other people to call them.

165: 5090:

and articulated policy regarding the issue is the Council of Europe.--

5177: 4412: 2480: 2225: 318: 296: 4686:

Yes! That is a compromise proposal!Until a solution is found in the

3798:"Macedonian Slavs". Quite obviously, this is not a working variant. 2812:(not speaking as Mediator, but merely as an "old hand" around here) 1007:

who express their self determination and national politic and name,

679:, it is double political as it is trumped up by people in denial of 560:

of the ancient Macedonians is too relative, and it also depends on "

4657:

How many words? Off the top of my head I can think of at least two

4372: 2367:

It was put into the article so-far-as-I-can-tell by anonymous user

2033:

is not "aggressively deprecating", it is the precise equivalent of

1633:

Well, the Yugoslav Republic that was part of Yugoslavia was called

1586: 1544: 1194:

I'm not "threatening" anybody here so stick to the topic. I'll let

1180: 958: 724:

that this is a POV and political term used by the Hellenic Republic

401: 322: 300: 5075:, for instance (the RoC is unrecognised by most of the world). -- 2520:

Outdated as of 2001? Quite the contrary. International news media

2496:

http://ancienthistory.about.com/library/bl/bl_text_herodotus_1.htm

1794: 5056:

Jan Kleijssen, Director of the Secretary General's Private Office

4420: 4392: 4367: 4353: 4129:

Uskub,as capital city of Vilayet Kosovo is not Macedonia country!

3979: 3588: 3573: 3053:

See Yugoslavian ethnographic 1921-1931(Serbs,Croats,Slovenians):

1778:

Helsinki Watch, I'm curious to know how out of 240,000 supressed

615: 422: 418: 405: 291:

Not all those new examples are comparable at the same level. The

5137: 4345:

for the people and language even in English, along the lines of

4044:

In that case, Macedonians (nationality) should just redirect to

4606:

Macedonian population that accepted the Slavic language in the

4388: 4106:, is false! Would consider that the ethnic Macedonian symbols ( 4025: 3597: 3432: 3352: 3033:

http://img57.exs.cx/img57/8127/1880-geoturkeyethnographical.jpg

2006: 1607:. There is a movement to prevent a future unified China in the 1523:

Hellenes are misappropriating the name Macedonia for themselves

1419:

FlavrSavr, I must state that the idea to rename the article to

1261: 292: 4266:

Republic of krushevo is established as a Bulgarian "province"!

3561:(Thessaloniki is ours). On the other hand, the Skopje-aligned 3475:

Decius, is your father's heritage Hellenophone or Aromanian?--

2816:

The falsification of the Macedonian language as Greek language

1144:. That's what it comes down to. That's why they fear the term 191:, I cite it because of its, in my opinion, biased structure:" 187:

The following citation from the article "Macedonian Slavs" is

5005:

Note for the attention of the members of the Executive Board

4792: 4383: 4159:

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/grande.guerre/novembre15/pserbes2.jpg

4149:

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/grande.guerre/novembre15/pserbes1.jpg

4103: 4099: 3592: 3591:, with 0.44%. Their next best result in Macedonia was in the 3556: 3238: 2776:

As for the best article title, we might pick something like:

2382: 2348: 2220:

Every time you are given an inch you try to take a whole mile

1564: 1347: 1265: 1195: 1184: 1176: 1168: 818:

Sounds familiar? Its under "options" above. Read it again if

314: 4767:

name should be used - which happens to be "Macedonians". --

4005:

should be a small disambig article with all these meanings.

3385:, people homoglossoi (speaking the same Greek language)..." 2420:

himself suggested "Slavomakedonija" back in the early 90s.--

5189: 4585:

Macedonians is relevant, which is, so obviously, biased. --

4468:

for things related to the kingdom and empire of antiquity,

4377: 4249: 4248:

the flag of the Krushevo Republic is Bulgarian Symbol of

3454:

I knew it! *Takes a peep underneath Decius's Greek skirt*--

3230: 3060: 2766: 1728:) and the speculations of the Macedonian government (up to 1269: 689:

are" - this person-type doesn't objectively exist. Thus if

5224:

would this be like vandalizing the original wiki, or not?

3940:

I think there are five categories for disambiguation here:

3576:, widely acknowleged in Greece as the Slavic heartland of 697:, it is not Knowledge's business to explain that they are 4687: 4313:

Riviera is not yet into Turkey! (lake "Turkish Riviera")!

4098:

The term "Ethnic Macedonians" or "Macedonians" ,for the

3951:

Ancient Macedonians - the Greek-speaking classical people

3280:, do not try to distort the nature of the dispute. It is 3222: 3151: 3134:

International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia

2446:

would be if the Walloons started claiming that they were

2029:

province, and we will be more than happy to do business.

1123:

You're not in position to tell me what to do and not do.

5212:

Is this voting an attempt to justify the vandalizing of

4399:

makes it abundantly clear that it is a Slavic language;

3978:

would thus need to disambiguate all of these, much like

3381:"...there were representatives from Aitoloi, Acarnanes, 1698: 566:

they're probably not their descendants in cultural sense

425:

should not be listed at all, given the high percentage.

3226: 2245: 1599:

this issue is to be resolve. There are two Chinas, the

1015:

please go ahead and put the disputed neutrality mark.--

250:

language, along with popular Latin and Gaulish, formed

5067:

those international bodies. It doesn't constrain what

3954:

Macedonians (nationality) - the inhabitants of the ROM

3720:. And a politcal question demands a political answer. 3148:

Pan-Albanianism: How Big a Threat to Balkan Stability?

2507:

Response to Dionyziz: Macedonians vs. Macedonian Slavs

1376:

And for crying out loud, the UN and NATO do not, not,

4456:

for the ethnic Macedonians that are a slavic people,

3638:

Apparently the arguments play no role in the voting!

2548:

Exactly, the term "Macedonian Slavs" actually gained

1299:

only when it crosses over into historical claims, so

1095:, your expertise will surely be appreciated there. -- 321:. In both cases, a non-Slavic people 'imposed' their 4805:

and the fact that its use by people X is disputed.--

3365:μεγάλως έκηδόμην συναπάσης της Ελλάδος• αυτός τε γαρ 2756:

I've been asked to comment, so for what it's worth:

2025:

with something that distinguishes you from Greece's

1314:

The "Slavic crowd" sayer barely deserves a comment.

861:

is an excellent suggestion. However, I would prefer

4774:Your argument collides with the reality of the use 3634:

Apparently the arguments play no role in the voting

3116:

The United Nations recognize PeopleX as Macedonians

3049:

http://www.cjcr.cam.ac.uk/gateway/maps/Ethnic16.gif

3003:

http://img67.exs.cx/img67/8450/MapbyAmiBoue1847.jpg

2180:would be more problematic IMO. I definitely think 2045:. Most ethnologists and linguists would agree that 1637:, so when it became independant, it called itself ' 4484:for the old Empire / Kingdom of Alexandrian days, 3580:; but even there they only managed a paltry 3.13%. 3317:, and I dont think he 'll have a problem with it. 3067:All of the documents are in Bulgarian language. 3044:http://img57.exs.cx/img57/7518/macedonia_19192.jpg 2682:Wednesday, March 11, 1998 Published at 10:47 GMT: 2533:rather than the erstwhile ubiquitous blanket term 772:just don't get something, just say so: don't hide 681:their own multi-ethnic and mixed racial background 4464:for the pre-Hellenized Macedonians of antiquity, 4260:http://img24.exs.cx/img24/7216/Invitation1893.jpg 3963:Macedonians (religious) - an early Christian sect 3065:http://img24.exs.cx/img24/7216/Invitation1893.jpg 2931:a 7000 year old WOODEN inscription in Macedonian? 2690:Tuesday, 27 February, 2001, 23:57 GMT 00:57 UK: T 2341:Decius, here's the translation of the sentence: B 2260:EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT RESOLUTION ON WESTERN BALKANS 892:Palatakis, I will tell you only one thing: Get a 3023:http://img56.exs.cx/img56/3069/slaveni-karta.jpg 3008:http://img67.exs.cx/img67/5561/Safariknarodi.jpg 2562:Monday, 16 September, 2002, 03:51 GMT 04:51 UK: 1590:place to change the facts or to change history. 744:are going to distinguish between "Macedonian"... 334:I added a distinction between the cases listed. 217:", that the current article is far from NPOV. -- 4858:is not the constitutional name of the country, 4472:for things related to the region of Macedonia, 3124:results, the Macedonian Slavs search gave only 295:example is good, as the Belgae were an ancient 4939:None has the right to steal a nation's history 2594:Friday, 22 October, 2004, 15:39 GMT 16:39 UK: 2586:Monday, 18 October, 2004, 15:52 GMT 16:52 UK: 439:: There is a significant time dimension, that 4976:It is constitutionally forbidden. Regards. -- 2998:http://img67.exs.cx/img67/6475/brailsford.jpg 1330:variant, it seems to be less hypocritical! -- 846:confusion: just vote and don't tell me about 148:writing the above description of the dispute. 5025:"The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" 4908:, in all English-speaking countries, not as 4486:Macedonia (political subdivisions of Greece) 3696:for the proposals. Comments are welcome! -- 3013:http://img10.exs.cx/img10/3681/mackenzie.jpg 2698:Sunday, 25 March, 2001, 18:35 GMT 19:35 UK: 2250:http://www.mpa.gr/article.html?doc_id=522728 2013:, i.e. the Muslims. Of course, what happens 1712:people. If you wanna continue to substitute 1380:recognise "Macedonians" they only recognise 627:peoples inhabit the region of Macedonia." -- 189:not meant to trigger a historical discussion 137:I believe that your concerns are misplaced. 5146:In the UN this the usual state of affairs: 3400:MAKEDONIJA and MACEDONIA is diferent names 2706:Friday, 29 June, 2001, 11:52 GMT 12:52 UK: 1026:I got a question that I think is very much 317:as a parallel case, you might as well list 211:some nationalist Macedonian Slav historians 4904:). Also, they have declared themselves as 4560:: Macedonians have been speaking Greek at 3351:by descent, and I would not willingly see 2715:Monday, 9 July, 2001, 22:12 GMT 23:12 UK: 2637:was used when there was a need to make an 992:? Now that would be really well received! 5082:I posted the resolution merely to refute 4932:Dear god... I have just noticed this... 4919:dimensions, I'll let you live in them. -- 4474:Macedonian (Greek biased word definition) 4222:http://knigite.abv.bg/en/turk/turk_4.html 4046:Demographics of the Republic of Macedonia 4014:Demographics of the Republic of Macedonia 2820:CLEOPATRA SBORUVALA NA MAKEDONSKI JAZIK 540:" is too harsh if we are to accept that " 4494:Macedonia (Greek biased word definition) 4211:......................................." 3659:ignored in favour of partisan positions. 3221:The provisional designation used by the 2981:Which people is the "Macedonian Slavs"? 1659:What's the point of going on? (to Zocky) 1455:, gotta get yourself a little something 735:Finally, I take note of VMORO's comment: 2977:Which people is the "Macedonian Slavs"? 2663:Outdated as of 2001? Quite the contrary 1799:It is an ethnic slur to call someone a 808:an organization. On to the explanation 554:descendants in cultural or ethnic sense 546:People X speak a Slavic tongue/language 14: 4142:Prisonniers Serbes;Prisonniers Bulgars 3325:Are Alexander I,king of Macedonia not 2602:Sunday, 13 March, 2005, 23:53 GMT UK: 2525:was on the naming dispute between two 1320:issue, not historical, nor practical. 1256:; in the real world, that didn't stop 562:definitions which changed through time 44:Do not edit the contents of this page. 4419:as the modern counterpart of ancient 3569:in Greek) received a mere 6,176 votes 3235:Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia 2433:The only difference here being that 2290:This is falsification of Etymology! 1724:but also the one of Helsinki watch ( 1062:the Greeks didn't view them that way 25: 5165:they go altogether for a kafedaki! 4928:Who vandalized the Options section? 4782:for the people of Monaco and their 4190:".................................. 3621:i.e. not Greek and not Bulgarian.-- 1997:I was talking about the terms that 1064:(something which is false anyway). 978:Macedonians (that speak Macedonian) 244:Comments on 'comparable situations' 23: 4480:as a disambiguation page for RoM, 4448:) for the people of that country, 2909:Maybe, but what is the subject? -- 24: 5239: 4458:Macedonian (slavophonic language) 4403:does not. Accordingly, the terms 4214:Goce Delchev is ethnicity Bulgar! 2429:Belgians, Egyptians, Palestinians 1239:, you're actually wrong (again). 1148:. It is an "insult" to call them 2929:still have been able to salvage 2838:He is clearly talking about the 1140:themselves with anything except 29: 4573:in the correct vocative case.-- 4488:for the Greek prefectures/etc, 4196:(that) of the Krushevo Republic 4182:FYROMs anthem is Pro-Bulgarian! 2633:So you agree with me then that 2466:handle ethnic Macedonians, and 18:Talk:Macedonians (ethnic group) 4886:translated into Macedonian is 4602:You contradict yourself. "The 4462:Macedonian (ancient ethnicity) 4446:Republic of Macedonia national 4440:as a disambiguation page for: 3655: 740:Can someone explain to me how 712:Macedonian Slavs can be a kept 595:be counted. Anyone dissagree? 13: 1: 4678:Maybe Vergina knows. Hehe..-- 4644:---such as the Fifth Century 4454:Macedonian (slavic ethnicity) 4351:instead of Serbian Republic, 4241:Dame Gruev ethnicity Bulgar ! 3166:Smuggling in Southeast Europe 802:are a person. But then maybe 667:Some will say: wait a minute 656:Greek Slavophobes (ethnicity) 325:on an earlier Slavic people. 5053:Language: Macedonian (Slav) 5041:Language: Macedonian (Slav) 4992:Council of Europe resolution 4633:beyond the Roman conquest.-- 3514:My exact words were "people 3355:exchange freedom for slavery 2985:are the Bulgarian people of 2389:Your parallel is based on a 2237:Vergina's comment to Ivica83 790:questions, because they are 7: 5002:F.B (2004) OS 2 March 2004 4705:The silence of people like 4631:ancient Macedonian language 4492:for the geographic region, 4085:Ancient Macedonian language 3694:User:ChrisO/Naming disputes 3298:Republika Makedonija-Skopje 3286:Republika Makedonija-Skopje 3076:Yugoslavia-Bulgaria ACTION: 2840:ancient Macedonian language 1867:I do believe we are making 1827:, and so on and so forth.-- 1093:Ancient Macedonian language 673:Well so is Macedonian Slavs 215:another proof (out of many) 206:Another proof (out of many) 140:This poll is advertised on 10: 5244: 4411:would be reserved for the 4236:Pitu Guli ethnicity Vlah ! 4173:See U.S. State Department: 3802:00:09, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC) 3207:22:44, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC) 2479:See Etymology of the Name 2410:Saints Cyril and Methodius 2282:Falsification of Etymology 2233:history to use as a name. 2164:I would be able to accept 1736:21:31, Jun 12, 2005 (UTC) 1601:People's Republic of China 1328:Macedonian Ape-like bipeds 1000:Macedonians think is valid 863:Macedonian Ape-like Bipeds 693:have decide that they are 5230:11:25, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC) 5180:20:34, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC) 5173:statements or decisions. 5134:11:36, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC) 5112:11:08, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC) 5079:10:42, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC) 4988:11:30, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC) 4967:10:01, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC) 4955:02:19, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC) 4809:00:15, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC) 4796:instead of Ruthenian and 4771:23:01, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC) 4763:Knowledge, so the common 4755:22:44, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC) 4733:17:57, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC) 4674:17:32, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC) 4653:17:20, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC) 4637:17:15, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC) 4626:16:35, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC) 4599:16:25, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC) 4553:16:06, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC) 4533:15:59, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC) 4516:15:44, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC) 4427:15:28, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC) 4299:00:35, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC) 4090:10:56, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC) 4081:09:18, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC) 4041:04:32, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC) 4009:21:30, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC) 3911:22:13, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC) 3890:08:09, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC) 3869:21:55, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC) 3831:11:46, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC) 3813:00:05, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC) 3724:23:49, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC) 3617:20:41, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) 3550:07:52, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) 3530:07:40, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) 3510:07:24, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) 3489:07:10, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) 3471:06:54, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) 3450:04:45, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) 3443:03:20, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) 3418:01:23, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) 3396:23:31, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC) 3321:00:40, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC) 3271:06:49, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) 3256:00:21, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) 3245:23:00, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC) 3194:20:43, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC) 3098:23:16, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC) 3090:07:30, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) 3071:07:56, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC) 2878:15:04, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC) 2858:14:28, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC) 2834:16:39, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC) 2625:15:19, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC) 2556:sees people X after 2001: 2516:12:30, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC) 2503:19:36, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC) 2458:11:37, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC) 2403:14:40, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC) 2375:16:39, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC) 2364:16:16, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC) 2337:14:49, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC) 2326:14:04, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC) 2319:12:49, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC) 2312:12:21, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC) 2305:12:15, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC) 2294:19:38, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC) 2213:08:32, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) 2201:13:27, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC) 2161:17:37, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC) 2153:13:14, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC) 2095:10:02, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC) 1856:07:03, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC) 1831:22:02, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC) 1791:09:25, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC) 1770:14:09, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC) 1763:13:58, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC) 1684:06:38, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) 1676:02:36, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC) 1666:Macedonians (nationality) 1629:09:12, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC) 1594:00:21, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC) 1571:12:04, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) 1540:07:09, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) 1532:18:36, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC) 1495:06:36, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) 1488:22:38, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC) 1478:00:05, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC) 1471:17:59, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC) 1463:12:35, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC) 1448:12:20, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC) 1441:Macedonians (nationality) 1436:15:46, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC) 1421:Macedonians (nationality) 1406:Macedonians (nationality) 1400:, the name of the people 1388:11:35, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC) 1373:11:19, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC) 1354:11:19, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC) 1248:also guarantees nations' 1202:16:25, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC) 1160:15:25, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC) 1152:, even though they speak 1136:15:15, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC) 1073:14:43, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC) 913:16:28, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC) 900:13:02, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC) 873:or even a Scooby-Doobien 644:13:10, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC) 631:03:45, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC) 591:02:38, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC) 268:01:06, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC) 142:Knowledge:Current surveys 5196:09:29, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC) 5121:11:42, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC) 5094:10:50, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC) 5031:Adjective/ Nationality: 4980:11:14, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC) 4923:04:14, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC) 4900:(the english version of 4829:10:09, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC) 4745:18:18, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC) 4699:17:50, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC) 4682:17:33, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC) 4665:17:28, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC) 4589:16:23, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC) 4577:16:09, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC) 4545:16:04, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC) 4525:15:53, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC) 4508:21:05, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC) 4442:Macedonian (nationality) 4319:12:45, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC) 4306:10:56, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC) 4276:09:51, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC) 4193:Now again the flag flies 4155:See Prisonniers Bulgars: 4145:See Prisonniers Serbes: 4119:22:39, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) 4052:10:00, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC) 3986:12:50, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC) 3923:08:20, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC) 3847:07:48, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC) 3783:00:05, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC) 3755:23:54, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) 3700:23:30, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) 3681:13:22, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) 3669:09:12, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) 3647:07:55, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) 3625:22:24, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) 3605:08:59, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) 3542:07:46, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) 3522:07:35, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) 3500:07:20, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) 3479:07:07, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) 3458:06:42, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) 3414:01:06, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) 3307:07:05, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) 3292:06:47, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) 3215:22:49, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC) 3201:Macedonian (nationality) 3111:07:03, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) 2964:03:29, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC) 2936:10:43, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC) 2913:22:28, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) 2898:19:56, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) 2887:22:47, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC) 2868:00:21, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC) 2846:18:05, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC) 2746:16:43, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC) 2645:15:42, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC) 2541:14:25, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC) 2475:18:19, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC) 2424:16:17, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC) 2355:15:47, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC) 2275:20:59, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC) 2166:Macedonian (nationality) 2137:15:33, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC) 2112:11:40, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC) 2077:08:30, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC) 2057:15:42, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC) 1982:12:56, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC) 1958:07:44, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC) 1926:12:52, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC) 1903:15:33, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC) 1876:08:15, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC) 1844:03:26, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC) 1744:22:09, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC) 1692:14:59, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) 1652:20:14, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC) 1615:20:08, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC) 1580:21:30, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) 1552:21:24, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) 1502:09:11, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC) 1412:02:21, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC) 1334:17:27, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC) 1307:17:05, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC) 1293:16:50, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC) 1276:17:22, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC) 1221:16:36, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC) 1119:14:58, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC) 1110:14:54, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC) 1099:14:51, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC) 1048:14:30, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC) 1038:13:44, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC) 1019:12:58, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC) 982:Macedophonic Macedonians 965:10:36, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC) 942:19:26, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC) 926:17:02, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC) 883:14:36, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC) 609:Why not Macedonian Apes? 599:02:50, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC) 576:05:08, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC) 558:cultural or ethnic sense 527:19:07, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC) 506:07:19, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC) 462:06:07, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC) 448:06:31, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC) 429:06:18, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC) 417:As you can see from the 412:05:45, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC) 392:04:58, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC) 366:04:19, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC) 354:04:07, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC) 338:03:57, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC) 329:03:33, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC) 308:03:29, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC) 286:03:08, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC) 275:03:05, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC) 258:00:54, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC) 237:05:37, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC) 221:04:27, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC) 180:02:28, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC) 168:02:20, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC) 132:02:04, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC) 5220:replace the wiki about 5205:What about the current 5019:As regards the country 4803:in the English language 4293:Coat of arms of Armenia 4205:Goce Delchev, Pitu Guli 4199:Goce Delchev, Pitu Guli 4132:See Uskub(Skopje) 1915: 4075:Present day Macedonians 3377:Tito Livius XXXI 29, 15 2894:Cute, but off subject. 2823:CLEOPATRA SPOKE IN THE 2176:, while something like 974:Slavophonic Macedonians 832:places, like France). 710:At the end of the day, 122:there are other options 5058:-- 10:33, 23 Jun 2005 4790:instead of Moldavian, 4466:Macedonian (antiquity) 4208:Dame Gruev, Sandanski! 4202:Dame Gruev, Sandanski! 3295:NOT TRANSLATABLE NAME: 3155:is used to describe a 2803:Thanks for listening. 2178:Macedonian (ethnicity) 875:Macedonians (huuuh???) 840:vote, please spare me 671:is a political issue! 5126:blackmailing isn't? 4878:Republic of Macedonia 4874:Republic of Macedonia 4870:Republic of Macedonia 4482:Macedonia (antiquity) 4434:Republic of Macedonia 4291:is not armenian? See 3424:Alexandros Gheorghiou 2174:Republic of Macedonia 1250:territorial integrity 990:American (anglophone) 677:Macedonian (traitors) 669:Macedonian (traitors) 660:Macedonian (traitors) 552:(ancient Macedonian) 437:A very important note 42:of past discussions. 5216:? If the wiki about 4864:Republika Makedonija 4860:Република Македонија 4856:Republika Makedonija 4719:Republika Makedonija 4711:Republika Makedonija 4616:Republika Makedonija 4415:or specifically for 4341:for the country and 4339:Republika Makedonija 4327:Republika Makedonija 4187:See Fyromian anthem: 1899:when you need him?-- 718:if the text explains 699:actually and in fact 5188:and they call me a 5103:Don't you FYROM me! 4812:We don't translate 4470:Macedonian (region) 3820:could ignore them. 2825:MACEDONIAN LANGUAGE 2791:region of Palestine 2782:region of Macedonia 1367:Macedonian language 871:Macedonians (wOOt!) 867:Macedonians (duh!?) 852:unfathomable logic. 538:People X are Slavic 4490:Macedonia (region) 4417:Macedonia (Greece) 4228:Sandanski=Bulgar ! 4071:Modern Macedonians 3347:but I am myself a 3128:results, of them: 2994:Vardarska Banovina 2990:Vardarska Banovina 972:Then it should be 313:Also, if you list 5176:Peace&love -- 5073:Republic of China 4999:CONSEIL EXECUTIF 4640:I said there are 4436:for the country; 4036: 2852:acient Macedonian 2795:Palestinian Arabs 2464:ethnic Macedonian 1807:, Hungarians are 1620:How about "Rome"? 1605:Republic of China 920:Macedonians (not) 544:". I think that " 87: 86: 54: 53: 48:current talk page 5235: 5218:Macedonian Slavs 5201:Macedonians wiki 4997:EXECUTIVE BOARD 4818:Republika Srpska 4798:Republika Srpska 4348:Republika Srpska 4067:Macedonian Slavs 4033: 3828: 3752: 3391:Macedonian Slavs 3315:Richard Stallman 2983:Macedonian Slavs 2635:Macedonian Slavs 1811:, Albanians are 1780:Macedonian Slavs 1775:Macedonian Slavs 1732:). Your choice. 1362:Macedonian Slavs 1167:of course is an 1154:Slavic languages 1130:Macedonian Slavs 1125:Macedonian Slavs 1066:Macedonian Slavs 1054:Macedonian Slavs 851: 845: 839: 830: 823: 813: 807: 801: 795: 789: 783: 777: 771: 766:problem is that 765: 757: 564:": I find that " 193:Some nationalist 68: 56: 55: 33: 32: 26: 5243: 5242: 5238: 5237: 5236: 5234: 5233: 5232: 5203: 5140: 4994: 4930: 4729:be a hoot! :D-- 4335: 4096: 3826: 3750: 3636: 3485:much Romanian. 3429:See number 3693 3335: 3118: 2979: 2818: 2509: 2431: 2399:latter Greek). 2331:Egyptian Arabic 2284: 2239: 2222: 1840:clear offense. 1815:, Dutchmen are 1797: 1701: 1670:Macedonian Apes 1661: 1622: 1525: 1402:is not disputed 1324:Macedonian Apes 1289:from the fact. 1189:User:Theathenae 1179:seem to be the 1058:Macedonian Slav 955:Macedonian Slav 859:Macedonian Apes 847: 841: 835: 826: 819: 809: 803: 797: 791: 785: 779: 773: 767: 761: 753: 621:Macedonian Apes 611: 246: 64: 30: 22: 21: 20: 12: 11: 5: 5241: 5202: 5199: 5198: 5197: 5186:Macadamia nuts 5139: 5136: 5123: 5122: 5098: 5097: 5096: 5095: 4993: 4990: 4982: 4981: 4949: 4948: 4947: 4946: 4940: 4937: 4929: 4926: 4925: 4924: 4913: 4894: 4881: 4867: 4852: 4851: 4850: 4849: 4848: 4847: 4844:making a point 4835: 4834: 4833: 4832: 4831: 4830: 4749: 4748: 4747: 4746: 4709:regarding the 4703: 4702: 4701: 4700: 4684: 4683: 4667: 4666: 4593: 4592: 4591: 4590: 4579: 4578: 4547: 4546: 4527: 4526: 4510: 4509: 4506:132.205.44.134 4334: 4324: 4323: 4322: 4321: 4320: 4314: 4311: 4310: 4309: 4308: 4307: 4280: 4279: 4278: 4277: 4268: 4267: 4263: 4262: 4257: 4246: 4245: 4242: 4238: 4237: 4233: 4232: 4229: 4225: 4224: 4219: 4215: 4212: 4209: 4206: 4203: 4200: 4197: 4194: 4191: 4188: 4184: 4183: 4179: 4178: 4174: 4170: 4169: 4162: 4161: 4156: 4152: 4151: 4146: 4143: 4140: 4134: 4133: 4130: 4127: 4123: 4122: 4121: 4120: 4095: 4092: 4062: 4061: 4060: 4059: 4058: 4057: 4056: 4055: 4054: 4053: 3990: 3989: 3988: 3987: 3969: 3968: 3967: 3966: 3965: 3964: 3961: 3958: 3955: 3952: 3944: 3943: 3942: 3941: 3935: 3934: 3933: 3932: 3925: 3924: 3915: 3914: 3913: 3912: 3901: 3900: 3899: 3898: 3879: 3878: 3877: 3876: 3875: 3874: 3873: 3872: 3871: 3870: 3853: 3852: 3851: 3850: 3849: 3848: 3817: 3816: 3815: 3814: 3795: 3794: 3793: 3792: 3791: 3790: 3789: 3788: 3787: 3786: 3785: 3784: 3765: 3764: 3763: 3762: 3761: 3760: 3759: 3758: 3757: 3756: 3732: 3731: 3730: 3729: 3728: 3727: 3726: 3725: 3706: 3705: 3704: 3703: 3702: 3701: 3685: 3684: 3683: 3682: 3671: 3670: 3661: 3660: 3651: 3650: 3649: 3648: 3635: 3632: 3631: 3630: 3629: 3628: 3627: 3626: 3607: 3606: 3587:prefecture of 3544: 3543: 3524: 3523: 3504: 3503: 3502: 3501: 3481: 3480: 3460: 3459: 3416:194.106.167.14 3412:194.106.167.14 3399: 3379: 3378: 3359: 3358: 3334: 3323: 3311: 3310: 3309: 3308: 3301: 3293: 3266: 3265: 3264: 3263: 3260: 3219: 3218: 3217: 3216: 3183: 3182: 3169: 3160: 3142: 3117: 3114: 3113: 3112: 3085: 3084: 3079: 3078: 3059: 2978: 2975: 2974: 2973: 2972: 2971: 2970: 2969: 2968: 2967: 2966: 2965: 2944: 2943: 2942: 2941: 2940: 2939: 2938: 2937: 2919: 2918: 2917: 2916: 2915: 2914: 2902: 2901: 2900: 2899: 2889: 2888: 2872: 2871: 2870: 2869: 2848: 2847: 2817: 2814: 2793:. Clearly the 2786: 2785: 2771: 2770: 2754: 2753: 2752: 2751: 2750: 2749: 2748: 2747: 2728: 2727: 2726: 2725: 2724: 2723: 2722: 2721: 2713: 2704: 2696: 2688: 2673: 2672: 2671: 2670: 2669: 2668: 2667: 2666: 2651: 2650: 2649: 2648: 2647: 2646: 2560: 2559: 2558: 2557: 2543: 2542: 2531:Slavomakedónes 2508: 2505: 2477: 2476: 2473:132.205.45.148 2430: 2427: 2426: 2425: 2378: 2357: 2356: 2283: 2280: 2279: 2278: 2277: 2276: 2267: 2266: 2265: 2264: 2261: 2255: 2254: 2253: 2252: 2238: 2235: 2221: 2218: 2216: 2194: 2193: 2192: 2191: 2190: 2189: 2188: 2187: 2186: 2185: 2141: 2140: 2139: 2138: 2130:Sun of Vergina 2114: 2113: 2083: 2082: 2081: 2080: 2079: 2078: 2065: 2064: 2063: 2062: 2061: 2060: 2059: 2058: 2011:western Thrace 2003:Greek Citizens 1988: 1987: 1986: 1985: 1984: 1983: 1962: 1961: 1960: 1959: 1947:Slavomakedónes 1936: 1935: 1934: 1933: 1932: 1931: 1930: 1929: 1928: 1927: 1911: 1910: 1909: 1908: 1907: 1906: 1905: 1904: 1882: 1881: 1880: 1879: 1878: 1877: 1860: 1859: 1858: 1857: 1846: 1845: 1796: 1793: 1746: 1745: 1700: 1697: 1696: 1695: 1694: 1693: 1660: 1657: 1656: 1655: 1654: 1653: 1650:132.205.44.134 1621: 1618: 1617: 1616: 1613:132.205.44.134 1582: 1581: 1556: 1555: 1554: 1553: 1530:132.205.45.148 1524: 1521: 1520: 1519: 1518: 1517: 1516: 1515: 1514: 1513: 1512: 1511: 1510: 1509: 1508: 1507: 1506: 1505: 1504: 1503: 1457:semi-automatic 1414: 1413: 1391: 1358:User:FlavrSavr 1338: 1337: 1336: 1335: 1309: 1308: 1295: 1294: 1283: 1282: 1281: 1280: 1279: 1278: 1277: 1227: 1226: 1225: 1224: 1223: 1222: 1192: 1191: 1121: 1120: 1112: 1111: 1103: 1102: 1101: 1100: 1050: 1049: 1040: 1039: 1023: 1022: 1021: 1020: 993: 967: 966: 946: 945: 944: 943: 928: 927: 906: 905: 904: 903: 902: 901: 885: 884: 878: 854: 853: 833: 825: 759: 750: 746: 736: 732: 731: 707: 706: 685: 684: 664: 663: 650: 649: 648: 647: 646: 645: 610: 607: 605: 603: 602: 601: 600: 582: 580: 579: 578: 577: 531: 530: 529: 528: 510: 509: 508: 507: 497: 496: 495: 494: 488: 487: 486: 485: 476: 475: 474: 473: 466: 465: 464: 463: 452: 451: 450: 449: 431: 430: 414: 413: 396: 395: 394: 393: 368: 367: 358: 357: 356: 355: 340: 339: 331: 330: 310: 309: 288: 287: 279: 278: 277: 276: 260: 259: 245: 242: 241: 240: 239: 238: 225: 224: 223: 222: 182: 181: 172: 171: 170: 169: 162: 161: 158: 155: 152: 149: 145: 134: 133: 85: 84: 79: 74: 69: 62: 52: 51: 34: 15: 9: 6: 4: 3: 2: 5240: 5231: 5229: 5225: 5223: 5219: 5215: 5210: 5208: 5195: 5191: 5187: 5183: 5182: 5181: 5179: 5174: 5170: 5166: 5162: 5159: 5155: 5151: 5147: 5144: 5135: 5133: 5127: 5120: 5115: 5114: 5113: 5111: 5107: 5104: 5093: 5089: 5085: 5081: 5080: 5078: 5074: 5070: 5065: 5064: 5063: 5062: 5061: 5054: 5051: 5048: 5045: 5042: 5039: 5036: 5032: 5029: 5026: 5023: 5020: 5017: 5013: 5009: 5006: 5003: 5000: 4998: 4989: 4987: 4979: 4975: 4970: 4969: 4968: 4966: 4960: 4956: 4954: 4944: 4943: 4941: 4938: 4935: 4934: 4933: 4922: 4918: 4914: 4911: 4907: 4903: 4899: 4895: 4893: 4889: 4885: 4882: 4879: 4875: 4871: 4868: 4865: 4861: 4857: 4854: 4853: 4845: 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2777: 2774: 2768: 2763: 2762:not permitted 2760:Knowledge is 2759: 2758: 2757: 2745: 2741: 2736: 2735: 2734: 2733: 2732: 2731: 2730: 2729: 2720: 2718: 2714: 2712: 2710: 2705: 2703: 2701: 2697: 2695: 2693: 2689: 2687: 2685: 2681: 2680: 2679: 2678: 2677: 2676: 2675: 2674: 2664: 2659: 2658: 2657: 2656: 2655: 2654: 2653: 2652: 2644: 2640: 2636: 2632: 2631: 2630: 2629: 2628: 2627: 2626: 2624: 2620: 2617: 2614: 2612: 2608: 2607: 2605: 2600: 2599: 2597: 2592: 2591: 2589: 2584: 2583: 2581: 2576: 2575: 2573: 2568: 2567: 2565: 2555: 2551: 2547: 2546: 2545: 2544: 2540: 2536: 2532: 2528: 2523: 2519: 2518: 2517: 2515: 2504: 2502: 2498: 2497: 2493: 2490: 2486: 2482: 2474: 2469: 2465: 2461: 2460: 2459: 2457: 2453: 2449: 2444: 2440: 2436: 2423: 2419: 2418:Kiro Gligorov 2415: 2411: 2406: 2405: 2404: 2402: 2397: 2392: 2387: 2386: 2384: 2376: 2374: 2370: 2369:84.177.113.93 2365: 2363: 2354: 2350: 2345: 2340: 2339: 2338: 2336: 2332: 2327: 2325: 2320: 2318: 2313: 2311: 2306: 2304: 2300: 2295: 2293: 2289: 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