1417:. Can you please help us settle this, imo, unnecessary difference here? Just in the above section, we were discussing whether the adjective "aggressive" in the phrase "aggressive US policies against Iran" helped for an objective summary of what the sources point out. But here we are caught debating whether even the phrase "US policies against Iran" should be used! My argument is that neither "US policies against Iran" nor even "aggressive US policies against Iran" are opinions. The sources that we have cite multiple examples of US deliberately harmful and intrusive policies against Iran such as the 1953 coup against an Iranian nationalist leader, supporting the repressive monarchy of the Pahlavi all the years afterwards, training Pahlavi's notorious secret police, SAVAK which was responsible for torture of thousands of Pahlavi regime dissidents; supporting Saddam's 8-year destructive war against Iran in the 1980s, shooting down an Iranian passenger airplane in 1980s, and mounting economic sanctions on the country to this day. Now my question is with such prominent examples of US hostility mentioned by the sources (while each of them is also documented separately in respective Wiki entries as well) that have all resulted in large-scale death and suffering for Iranians, doesn't it warrant summarizing this entire lengthy historical account given by the sources as just "aggressive US policies against Iran"Â ?! I think this is easily warranted based on
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in Iran referring to this quote in english is written "Down with
America", no one actually writes Death to America which is the crude translation mostly used as a kind of propaganda tool to point that Iranians wants to kill Americans and bring more hate, this is the same process as when Ahmadinejad reportedly said "Wipe Israel off the map", this same process of direct translations have been done many times. This is sad because most references here are exactly the ones who made popular "Death to America" when it was not even a thing in Iran, taking the crude translation which was never meant in Iran and spread it for personal interests. The title would be "Down with America (chant)" as we are talking of a chant, a slogan, and "Death" in the lead mentioning this is the crude translation, the article is talking about a slogan/chant.
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Israel in the slogan. It seems inaccurate that the second half of the slogan is ignored. It's referenced four times in citations and a caption, perhaps because it might be difficult to find an article or printed instance of the slogan that doesn't quote both. Despite that, it's omitted everywhere else in the entire article. The inclusion of the two nations should at least be mentioned if this is to be accurately informative of the use of the slogan. The article even refers to the Soviet Union in reference to variations of the phrase - "A similar slogan 'Death to the Soviet Union' was also used."
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and some of the other allegations you mentioned are also disputed, but what I said are all undisputed facts even admitted by US officials! But just as you said these are indeed irrelevant to the point here. The point is whether the history of the US clearly intrusive, unprovoked and troubling interventions into the affairs of a country on the other end of the globe can be objectively described as "aggressive". But you didn't touch on this at all. Instead you went on mentioning the Iran's reactions to the US dominance of Iran and the region in later decades which are beside the point here.
858:, when political activists would chant "zende ba ___" ("long live ___") in support of a policy or leader, or "marg bar ___" in opposition. These two phrases became entrenched within Iranian political discourse, and during the Iranian Revolution of 1979, swarms of protestors took to the streets chanting "marg bar Shah" to express their dissatisfaction with Iran's monarchy. "Marg bar ___" and "zende ba ___" have continued to live on as colloquial phrases incorporated into political chants, and they have been appropriated to express opposition to or support for any number of subjects.
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1328:"US policies against Iran " is not an opinion! It is an undisputed fact of history that is also admitted at times by many US officials! There are already dozens of Wikipages on all the examples cited by the sources!! So we are not talking about a personal opinion but a long list of thoroughly documented US policies against Iran. And no I don't need you to regurgitate all the Iranophobic talking-points based on lies, fabrications or half-truths that we are sold by the Western governments and the complicit
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1157:, isn't "aggressive" an objective summary of the multiple instances of US vicious policies against Iran that are mentioned in the sources? I mean how else one describes a US-backed coup against a nationalist democratic leader back in 1953, US arming of Saddam during his 8-year war of aggression against Iran in the 1980s, shooting down of an Iranian commercial airplane in late 1980s, and all the mounting sanctions by the US government against the country to this day?!
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Is there a good example where the phrase is used, yet the user clearly does not wish literal death? (I'll point out that "Death to
America" would logically be seen as a wish that the country indeed would not exist, would be overthrown and replaced. Such a clarification does not excuse the sentiment.)
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The meaning of the quote is Down with
America, not Death, which is the direct translation, getting the quote out of its meaning, a language is dynamic, not static, we are talking about a slogan/chant the same can be done on many quotes and getting it completely out of its original meaning. Every arts
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on US activities in relation to Iran, and the same argument you made relating to US activities could be made for Iran's activities towards the US in the seizing of the US embassy, the bombing of the khobar towers, the bombing of the US marine barracks in
Lebanon, training insurgents to fight against
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Reaching out to editors or others who've authored this page, but I'm really surprised how the chant is quoted simply as "Death to
America", when the routinely quoted chant in media seems to be "Death to America. Death to Israel.". I'm not sure I've ever seen a quote in the press that didn't include
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Are you suggesting that the existence of "US policies against Iran" are false or disputed?! Even if you had cared to look at the provided sources, you would have seen that even US ex-president Bill
Cointon and ex-foreign minister Madlin Albright, have admitted the existence of such vicious policies
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the US unprovoked hostilities against Iran! Seizing of US embassy for example was after the
Islamic Revolution in 1979 which ousted a US backed dictatorial monarchy that was installed and consolidated by the 1953 coup that was orchestrated by CIA-MI6. The allegations of training insurgents in Iraq
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explains that the phrase is not in reference to the
American people or even the country as a whole, but instead discontent with American political policies and its intervention in the Middle East. When the Iranian people took to the streets last week to celebrate the anniversary of the revolution,
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Recently an edit (in the overview section, beginning This was due to inappropriate behavior...) was added to the article that added some historical context to the slogan. It was then reverted with the edit summary 'POV editorializing'. I don't believe this was the intent or the effect of that
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is not really relevant here. I'm just citing what the sources say about US policies towards Iran to find out whether they can be objectively described as "aggressive" (regardless of our personal opinion) and that for the sake of brevity in which case such characterization wouldn't qualify as
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I've changed the translation of "Marg bar Âmrikâ" with the nearest correct one of "Down with
America" throughout the article. I can't find a secondary source "official" enough to reference and I don't speak Farsi, but it seems pretty clear by a search on the internet that that's the nearest
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Travel writer Rick Steves recorded a taxi driver in Tehran exclaiming "Death to traffic!" in
English, explaining that "when something frustrates us and we have no control over it, this is what we say". Steves compares the phrase to non-literal use of the word damn in American
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addition, but rather an attempt to give balance and context to the article. This should be discussed on the talk page, not via edit summaries. It may take a little work, but I am sure that references can be improved and that the added context will be an improvement. —
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is seen by even some US officials as being disgraceful as quoted by AlJazeera?! The US policies against Iran both before and after the 1979 Islamic Revolution of Iran are just beyond question and what you propose here is baseless at worst and redundant at best.
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on the politics of this topic or however you'd like to characterize it, bottom line is that calling the US policies aggressive is editorializing on your part and inserting your own opinion of what US actions are which is not only not neutral but its OR. -
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Hehe, you can't answer because you have no point. To argue that "US policies against Iran" is an opinion just shows that you never read the sources or don't want to admit the fact for some reason. I'm going to restore the version, anyway; for you indeed
980:, that the cite for the addition (...This was due to inappropriate behavior...) is weak. If the article itself were neutral, and the use made of prior cites were more neutral, I would not have restored the addition in question. However, the article is
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can be proven in case we can show the opposite views have more weight in comparison to the Iranian official views. In fact, the so-called apologist view is even supported by several Western analysts which are not covered in this page. Such as
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the US in Iraq, kidnapping US soldiers in Iraq, I could go on but it's generally irrelevant to the point. Putting that it is aggressive is editorializing and inserting your own opinion of what US actions are, which is clearly not neutral. -
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translation is "death" a better translation is probably "down with." Official translation may render it this way not to be less offensive, but simply because official Iranian translations are produced by translators with a good command of
1682:"Death" should be just a detail about the quote direct translation, not in the title. Many quotes can be direct-translated and make that quote totally out of its original meaning. This is very misleading as a title for a chant
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In general, it is perfectly acceptable to notify other editors of ongoing discussions, provided that it is done with the intent to improve the quality of the discussion by broadening participation to more fully achieve
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1314:. I'm not here to argue with you about Iran or US policies. For that you can make a blog, where I can give you a long list of Iranian policies against the world since the ayatollahs came to power (if you wish).--
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Propose whatever background you wish Neonrange. Anders exactly articulated my own position on the matter. And the article is not useless as is. It is a reflection of ideology, not simply grievances.
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What's wrong with you? Why do you keep deleting that quote? "Whitewash" or whatever doesn't concern us in Knowledge. So long as it is related to the topic and is notable it can be there. See
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the way to build a useful, neutral article. In my opinion, the article ought to give some background now missing: why the slogan was able to gain traction (US instigated overthrow in 1951 of
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editorializing. Otherwise we would have to explicitly mention those policies and their consequences each time we want to describe the impact and nature of US policies towards Iran.
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as of their time? So how can you dispute such a clear fact even when Iran is just facing a new round of US hostility in the form of illegal mounting sanctions? How can you when
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mey be it began at 1960 when Richard Niksone was in Iran and Iranian army was kild thery universitty students for stoped the protest of Iranian students againste USA.
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NPOV issue - we already have statements of Iranian leaders and we already amply cover the apologist stance that attempts to cast this slogan in a non-literal fashion.
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The phrase "US policies against Iran " is an opinion, it doesn't matter if Obama himself said it. As an opinion, it must be attributed per NPOV. Also take a look at
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reverted IMO is not. We don't need to leave a poorly sourced blurp in the article while we sit around waiting for someone to come up with a proper source.
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This is no proof at all, since "Death to traffic" is good, and the driver sincerely wishes that the traffic would not exist, in the literal sense.
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the chants of "marg bar America" were not threats of violence or war, but rather anger over Trump's policies targeting Iranians and Muslims.
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translation. Also, the official mural featured in the article seems clear and authoritative enough, and it uses the translation "down with".
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1565:. And Nahavandian is particularly interesting in that he gives examples of US hostilities that have provoked this sentiment in Iran. --
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post. It does seem that "Marg bar Âmrikâ" should be translated as "Down with America." The current lead suggests that the
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions.
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Deletion of recent edit that added background and historical context to article (please discuss on talk page)
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I'm not going to answer that. I already told you that Knowledge's policy (which is non-negotiable) requires
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the consensus version, and I am not the only editor opposing these changes. Please join the discussion.
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Google translate gives the same beginning for the two phrases "Death to america" and "Down with love":
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https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/11/11/tehran-iran-anti-american-murals-united-states-weaker-laughable/
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First of all, all you said about Iran's activities towards the US took place without exception only
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on false premises in addition to generally stalking my edits. The previous version, which was the
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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and contains no real information. If you are "sure that references can be improved", you should
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neutral. And is not very useful. It is mainly an arena for combat. Ignoring the talk page as
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does not seem to be supported by evidence from Farsi speakers or the history of the phrase
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https://translate.google.com/#fa/en/%D9%85%D8%B1%DA%AF%20%D8%A8%D8%B1%20%D8%B9%D8%B4%D9%82
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for feedback and arbitration here, who I have seen working on other Iran-related topics.
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The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
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https://www.alamy.com/down-with-the-usa-propaganda-mural-tehran-iran-image1470010.html
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Also, it seems that when they say "Death to Israel", then they do mean it literally.
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Here, the movie title "down with love" is translated in Persian as "marg bar.."
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https://www.alamy.com/iran-tehran-down-with-the-usa-mural-image417523990.html
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I agree the background would be useful, but the particular formulation which
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the US diabolical act of shooting down an Iranian passenger plane in 1988
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A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion
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in the banner shell. Please resolve this conflict if possible.
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This article has been given a rating which conflicts with the
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And the revised version shows you're not able to edit in an
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I agree with 80.111.149.114, who is supported by a recent
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Start-Class United States articles of Unknown-importance
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It is "Down with America", not "death" as a slogan/chant
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https://translate.google.com/#en/fa/death%20to%20america
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this edit of yours and the allegation of editorializing
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http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2382141
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misses the point of a discussion. I agree with you,
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1644:"Death to America. Death to Isreal." is the slogan.
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Now you're just engaging in disruptive edit-warring
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