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seems to me that it's more likely that the drivers are trained to drive in situations involving uncontrolled intersections, uncontrolled intersections being largely a foreign concept in the US. What I meant by being like a
California Stop is that, law aside, the actual behavior of vehicles is about the same: Cars coming to an intersection with no waiting traffic slow down to make sure it is safe to roll through, then proceed. Cars coming to an intersection where other legs are queued must come to a full stop while waiting for their turn. Perhaps it would be more illustrative and clearer for me to say that it's more like intersections have yield signs for either some of or all of the entry points? Americans 'get' that Yield may mean "proceed with caution" or "stop." Thanks for the link to
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have a lack of uncontrolled intersections. Something like "Aside from roundabouts, Europeans are trained to be more used to uncontrolled intersections where standards state that one must yield to traffic in the intersection, or, in the case of a tie, traffic to the right. The end result is something that resembles what is called the 'California Stop' in the US." The question is how does a car at speed determine if an upcoming intersection is uncontrolled or cross streets stop? In the US, all-way stops force drivers to slow down coming up on cross streets, otherwise they may pass through at speed. Uncontrolled intersections with no signage here would lead to confusion and accidents as nobody slows down for conflicting traffic. There must be some way that this is dealt with.
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more simple not too. It is less fatiguing and more fuel-efficient to only stop necessarily, like at a yield sign. It's important to note how a roundabout is more realistically suited to driver behavior. That said, I agree there is a pro-roundabout bias, but in the whole of the article. Perhaps a mention of some of the other cons of roundabouts and further characterizations of the existing pros of all-way stops is in order: Roundabouts pose detours for pedestrians if they desire the safety of a crosswalk, bicyclists find them hazardous, and they are incompatible with historic districts; roundabouts seem to be motorist oriented. All-way stops can greatly increase pedestrian safety, and they are inexpensive to install... for example.
752:, that was very helpful as to how this works. There are signs there that say if you have priority at the next intersection or if someone else does or if nobody does - I see how that would work. The whole point of me asking all these questions is because the concept of not utilizing the all-way stop, the topic of this article, I think would strike many Americans as crazy - the reason being is we see them go up at intersections that didn't work as two-way stops, so can't fathom how fewer regulations would help. What I'm learning (I think) is that other countries utilize priority laws more, which, in practice, operates a lot like intersections with yield signs instead (or a California stop), which I understand.
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turning them into roundabouts, which forces traffic to slow somewhat and go around the circle without needing to widen the intersection for a proper roundabout. My gut feeling is that speed is the real reason for four way stops in the US. My neighborhood is nearly 200 years old and has no four way stops. The traffic lights work for the major intersections, but combined with one-way streets and narrow, sometimes cobblestoned streets, traffic is slow enough for traffic that needs to stop for through traffic to enter the main flow safely.
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an all-way stop recently. The reason being that through traffic on the straight street was fairly heavy, and the most common maneuver from the street that ended as this intersection was a left-hand turn. Backups and dangerous cutoffs were fairly common. Maybe
Americans drive faster? It's extremely risky, as this situation was, to make a turn across oncoming traffic that is moving at 30-40 MPH when volume is significant enough that a wait for a safe break could easily take 30 seconds to a minute per car.
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to believe and doesn't look to be true. My question is, are
Europeans just more patient then Americans, are there different yielding rules, etc? Without four-way stops at crossroads with volume insufficient to warrant either a roundabout or a traffic light, how does it work? In the US, intersections where only the (relatively) minor road yields can get quite backed up, and poor sight lines and speeding traffic on the through street is dangerous! Thanks,
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intersections are used more typically in Europe, a concept fairly foreign to
American drivers. I think this would clarify how the European system works: The need for all traffic to stop regardless of other cars is eliminated (this is already mentioned), but a focus on priority causes cars to slow when approaching intersections - something the US two-way stop lacks, and is often the cause of four-way stops being built here as a safety measure.
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this page. Most readers will be other
English speakers who have no idea what they are and need an explanation that they can relate to. Like other Brits who have posted here, my initial reaction on hearing about them was 'Why would anybody use this crazy system? Hope I never have to navigate through one'. The article explains the rationale quite well. --
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easiest to talk about all-way stops if the article were organized into by-country or jurisdiction section, as all-way stops are not always same. If not that, perhaps operation and location sections. Anyway a history section would also be great. I'll continue to work on this, especially looking for citations.
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The space issue is a good example of an advantage over roundabouts specifically, but not necessarily other types of control. The same for cost vis a vis traffic lights. Those are specific advantages of the all-way stop to other specific right-of-way regulations and they could be added to the list of
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The contributions citing AA may be referencing safety facts about roundabouts in the UK, but does not contribute any information about all-way stops. That would be fine except that the reference doesn't come from a direct source, the DFT. So now that there is a reference to the same statistics from
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Germany (e.g.; and Europe, with few exceptions) does not have 4-way stops. Does this mean that roads do not intersect? No. They do. Does this mean that there are roundabouts in every intersection? No, though there are some (and though in France you might start to guess they do). The thing is, if two
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I understand the point that unlike the US, much of Europe is not on a grid, but grids and four way intersections are different things. Also, I can think of at least one local intersection that is 3-legged (I live in New
England so as far as America goes, our street system is ancient) and we made it
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I didn't see anything about the middle ages. The article is clearly about an intersection system where all vehicles must stop before crossing. To answer: the yielding rules are applied differently. All-way stop is not employed in Europe, however uncontrolled intersections (where vehicles yield to
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I think the main problem is that the bulk of the article was written by someone familiar with roundabouts but only a passing knowledge of all-ways stops, ie. me. My goal was to explain them to the rest of the world, which for the vast majority of the world means comparing them to roundabouts. I will
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I don't follow this article. A map of most
European cities will show plenty of four-way intersections without roundabouts in them and with seemingly no traffic lights. The concept expressed in this article that roads never crossed each other making a 4-way intersections in the Middle Ages is hard
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I don't feel the detailed comparison with roundabouts is unwarranted, despite minor nitpicks like the UK AA reference. Most people in North
America will know what an all way stop is (at the very least, they will have learned about them while learning to drive) and they won't be the people accessing
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The comparison is way too long compared to the rest of the article. I don't normally advocate the deletion ('trimming') of text unless it is highly irrelevant and I'm not doing so here. That said, we need to break the current intro into several sections and add reliable information. It would be
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There are some pros and cons that aren't written- about both types. But really, roundabouts, the modern ones, are less complex for motorists because of one-way movement, channelization, curving, one step rules and elimination of crossing movements. It's possible to make an err or, but so much
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So, would it be correct to say then that
Europeans don't have fewer four-way stops because of intersection geometry (as I feel this article implies) but rather are trained to drive in uncontrolled intersections? Perhaps your point is what should be made in the article - that countries like the US
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To improve the article, I'd suggest showing graphics or photographs on how these sorts of intersections are controlled in Europe, and the volumes they can handle if that data is available. I did a small amount of research on my own and saw that often circles are painted in standard intersections,
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I don't really have time now to do so, but if you look at the MUTCD archive at the FHWA's site or anywhere else I think you'll find that they've been around for at least sixty years, perhaps longer. And that they've become more numerous as the standards in the MUTCD have evolved. Other good places
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I'm quite familiar with both. Roundabouts caused confusion when they were first introduced around where I live. I love them, but people sometimes still mess up. Most people I know would say all-way stops are a necessary evil because 'there're so many dumb drivers out there...". I'm one of the few
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My wording must've been unclear because that is what I meant. I was just trying to say that this article seems to imply that the types of intersections that warrant all-way stops (four-legged intersections too small for roundabouts) are rare in Europe. I find that extremely hard to believe. It
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One last thing - an uncontrolled 4-way intersection, under reasonable volume, functions as a four way stop does anyhow, right? You're always arriving at the intersection after someone to your right who was queued up behind another car is already there. Traffic takes turns in a counter-clockwise
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There has been a recent tendency in
Britain to replace mini roundabouts (the closest equivalent to a US all-way stop) with signaled junctions, sometimes of considerable complexity. These are much less efficient at managing traffic conflicts but are perceived as safer for pedestrians and cyclists.
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We're having problems getting US drivers to stop saying 'Why would anybody use this crazy system? Hope I never have to navigate through one' about roundabouts! Guidance on all-way stops says they can be used as an interim measure until a badly needed signal can be installed. Perhaps it should say
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According to US practice, if an uncontrolled intersection has enough volume to have queues, it should not be an uncontrolled access. Hans Monderman has shown this does not have to be so, but US uncontrolled intersections tend to have traffic volumes under 150 vehicles per day, and all-way stop
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One reason for this difference is historical development patterns, in that most parts of North America were developed on a grid pattern and after the advent of the automobile, which resulted in a much higher incidence of four-legged intersections compared to Europe. In Europe, where most roads
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Someone used the term "two-way stop" once in the introductory paragraph to mean an all-way stop in which both streets are one-way, and then it says later in the paragraph that a two-way stop is the previous state of an intersection that has been converted to an all-way stop. Can someone please
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US state laws usually only state the requirements for stop signs, and the respective Motor Vehicle Divisions write hard-to-find driver manuals that give their precise all-way stop protocols; these usually enshrine local variations but are comparable to the UK Highway Code. The federally funded
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I agree that the article is misleading in its assertion that four way stops exist because of US grid road systems or (even more dubiously) automatic transmission cars. The big difference in Europe is that *all* open road junctions have a priority, either signed (by far the commonest system in
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So, finally... I think we should 1.) Take out that bit about Europe having comparatively few four-way intersections as misleading. The bit about roundabouts being more common for intersections of moderate volume I think should stay. 2.) Discuss how priority rules and priority signage at
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This article seems to have strayed away from discussing the subject (All-way stop) and onto discussing roundabouts. I'm probably as guilty of this as anyone. Can we get consensus on trimming down the commentary and focussing all-ways stops and reliable, third-party sourced information?
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Surely which car gets priority depends on which way the turning car is turning? It makes no sense for the car going straight to have priority if the car turning is turning right, as there is no clash of road use. Is that really the rule? If so then it needs to be clearly stated.
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This sounds highly dubious to me. The "worst case delay" would be when there are a large number of cars waiting at the intersection, in which case traffic signals may be better, allowing the queue to move more quickly, giving different priorities to different directions, etc. --
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An advantage compared to traffic lights, is lower cost (of running the intersection, not counting possible congestion), lower energy consumption and lower light pollution. Also, cars never have to wait unnecessarily for a cycle change at an empty intersection.
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It is probably the case for intersections that don't quite or barely meet warrants for signalization, considering that four traffic signs can be installed for under US$ 1000, and traffic signals can cost 100 times that much. I agree that elaboration is needed.
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The first point is talking about all other types of traffic control, especially uncontrolled intersections (yield to the right) and intersections where one road has priority. In any case traffic signals, and other forms of regulation, do not require
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Editors should avoid adding to the worldwide comparisons section of this article. If they want to provide useful and reliable citations to that text that's fine. Much of NPOV disputes for this article are referring to that section, so please tread
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I sincerely doubt that four-way stops are appearing all around Europe. They would be incompatible with France's priority rules, and the UK highway code states that stop signs are where major and minor roads intersect. Where are they appearing? --
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The end result is not necessarily like a California stop, because there is no general obligation to stop that is being ignored. A warning sign may be used to mark an uncontrolled intersection, and in countries that are signatories to the
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where traffic yields to the right or to traffic on the crossing road if it is a T-intersection (in some countries all uncontrolled intersections are yield-to-the right). It is important that you understand this for this thread to continue
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vehicles to stop. Though surely there are some very poorly timed traffic lights that are worse, they can be adjusted. In general, high-traffic intersections need lights to avoid gridlock and past a certain threshold all-way stops are not
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Surely this is only the case if you only take the direct cost of the junction, not the cost of congestion, delays, etc. For larger and more busy junctions this must outweigh the cost of provision or there would be no traffic signals! --
967:"reduced respect for stop signs if drivers perceive a complete stop to be unnecessary in the absence of conflicting traffic." is given as a disadvantage -- but 2-way stop signs have the same problem, as do non-smart traffic signals.
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Uniform Vehicle Code is only availble through private publishers. In general the information about the procedure at all-way stops is accurate and carefully worded. It would be nice to see more information on local variances though.
964:"wasted fuel and vehicle wear by requiring all drivers to stop, even when conflicting traffic is not present" is given as a disadvantage -- but traffic signals have much the same problem (unless they are "smart" traffic signals).
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The overall tone of sections of this article is very pro-roundabout. An explanation of the pros and cons of all-way stops and roundabouts is fine, but it should not be overly critical of the use of all-way stops.
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880:. Of course, one example in Ireland doesn't prove anything about Europe in general, although, given that the Irish Rules of the Road also describe stop signs as appearing "at junctions with major roads" (
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add a point about roundabouts being more difficult for learner drivers, though. What really needs doing is for a Canadian, South African or US citizen to write more about the history of the 4-way stop.
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the right -not necessarily stop) are used more frequently. Roundabouts are becoming more popular worldwide, but are definitely a feature of European roads. Any sugggestions for improvement?
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of them, are "inconvenienced" it leads to greater disrespect than a standard stop sign intersection, a traffic signal (smart or otherwise) whose timing can be adjusted or other regulation.
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approaching drivers. I don't know of much literature on the comparative research of traffic engineering and law, but licensing requirements are generally not prohibitive in the US.
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the the DFT is it really necessary or appropriate to have a quasi-advertisement masquerading as a reference? No it's totally inappropriate. Call it an external link (it is not an
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Sorry to bump this, but there is a solitary example in Ireland (I've never seen it, but it was converted in 2010 and I assume it's still in four-way stop form):
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Although not much more "international," Canada also uses the 4-way stop. So maybe this tag should say "North America" rather than just referring to the USA.
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direction passing through. Is there different signage for this than there is for say, an intersection where crossing traffic must yield to the main street?
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The section I'm referring to is this one. It doesn't make any sense that crossroads are being (somewhat) suggested as some sort of 19th century invention:
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I don't think the first section should be called "North America" since it simply describes the concept of an all-way stop. I'll try to change this. --
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after the link to keep me from modifying it, if I keep adding bad data, but formatting bugs should be reported instead. Alternatively, you can add
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developed Europe) or implied ('give way to the right'). Where there is genuinely no priority, a roundabout or signalled intersection is used. See
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that tag, I don't see how this article does: To the best of my knowledge, no country but the US sports such (to me: strange) all-way stops. --
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roads intersect, the driver of the more important one has the right of way, and the driver on the other one has to yield - and mostly,
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A problem with the lists is that there is a lot of unsourced information there currently. I will remove it.
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The reduced respect argument can apply to other types of traffic control too. But because more road users,
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developed centuries before, three-legged intersections are much more common, particularly in urban settings
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to keep me off the page altogether, but should be used as a last resort. I made the following changes:
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If one vehicle is turning and one is going straight, the right-of-way goes to the car going straight.
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drivers who actually stops at stop signs regularly but recognise that they are overused.
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The second sentence of bullet 5 in the operation section of the article is ambiguous.
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Surely an advantage, compared to roundabouts, is that no additional land is required.
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intersections should have volumes in the 4000 vehicle per day range.--
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Article is about all-way stop, or roundabouts? Article needs trimming.
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Dubious - more cost effective than an active traffic signal.
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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I have just added archive links to one external link on
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http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=four-way-stop+site%3Aza
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334:North America?
332:
324:clarify this?
320:
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285:128.196.208.15
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100:the discussion
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83:Science portal
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671:productively.
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319:Two-way stop?
316:
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299:
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294:24.28.154.193
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268:
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260:Four-way stop
257:
256:
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242:redirects to
241:
240:Four-way stop
237:
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177:Andrew Oakley
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1212:source check
1191:
1185:
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1158:All-way stop
1155:
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1109:
1100:
1087:
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1079:
1077:
1045:All-way stop
1042:
1039:
1002:
994:
954:
942:Triskele Jim
922:
902:
885:Grover Snodd
857:
835:
831:
808:
706:
667:
663:
619:Triskele Jim
532:
484:
440:Triskele Jim
399:encyclopedic
356:
337:
322:
300:
291:
280:
278:
234:
218:75.161.76.30
214:
150:
89:
36:WikiProjects
1094:Sourcecheck
1020:Synchronism
711:Synchronism
504:Synchronism
403:Synchronism
360:—Preceding
200:Synchronism
154:—Preceding
1294:Categories
1249:Report bug
391:carefully.
340:SmilingBoy
306:SmilingBoy
236:4-way stop
147:Neutrality
1232:this tool
1225:this tool
1124:this tool
1117:this tool
998:feasible.
836:necessary
244:Stop sign
231:Redirects
1238:Cheers.—
1130:Cheers.—
1055:cbignore
567:Thanks,
481:Question
374:contribs
366:Evilandi
362:unsigned
246:. Bwuh?
156:unsigned
1162:my edit
1140::Online
1080:checked
1049:my edit
926:Q Chris
906:Q Chris
861:Q Chris
854:Dubious
326:Hellno2
281:deserve
264:Sebwite
105:Science
96:Science
55:Science
1088:failed
1063:nobots
784:CSZero
650:CSZero
592:CSZero
569:CSZero
488:CSZero
32:scale.
1282:talk
1084:true
1024:talk
980:talk
946:talk
930:talk
910:talk
889:talk
865:talk
844:talk
832:only
820:talk
816:Ef80
814:. --
788:talk
715:talk
666:and
654:talk
623:talk
596:talk
573:talk
508:talk
492:talk
467:talk
444:talk
424:talk
407:talk
370:talk
344:talk
310:talk
222:talk
204:talk
181:talk
164:talk
1206:RfC
1176:to
1098:).
1086:or
1003:all
995:all
707:all
438:"--
124:???
1296::
1284:)
1270:"
1219:.
1214:}}
1210:{{
1096:}}
1092:{{
1061:{{
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38::
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