227:. ;-) The topic was discussed twice in the German Knowledge and the article was deleted twice. There are no reliable sources that Andro invented the so called Tantramassage (except the website of his own Association, which represents a minority of practitioners in Germany and Switzerland). The mentioned book from Stubbs exists (it has more to to with erotic massage than any sort of Tantrism) and proves that the terme was used years before Andro used it (there are several editions from several publishers). --
342:. As I said on the talk page, I don't give a crap about Andro, only that the material in the article was cited, which you never bothered to take the time to understand. You, however, are a hypocrite, and have been attempting to use the article to promote your massage studio in Austin while simultaneously complaining about Andro's "marketing". The one thing I can discern from this is that he's a much smarter man than you, with better marketing savvy! —
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title is Berühre mich. Anregungen für erotische
Massagen (tranlated: Touch me. Inspirations for erotic massages). So why do you pretend Andros massage has nothing to do with erotic massage? Finally is not true that most of the "institutes" are member of the Association. Most practioners are not! Only 13 massage parlors in Germany and one person in Switzerland are affiliated to the Association. --
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massage with his master back in the 1950's. What is amazing to me is that any novice in tantra clearly understands Andro had nothing to do with "inventing" the tantric massage modality. I mean, please ... that is preposterous and you know it. And, if not, you better go write someting about something you do know and leave this subject to others who have studied tantra.
128:- I think an association of practitioners is a valid source. However, it appears that who created the technique is disputed. If the dispute has been published in a reliable source, I have no objection to the dispute being included. However, those disputing the citable facts don't seem to have reliable sources.
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If there are any sources, that proof that Andro is the inventor of the tantric massage, I will accept it. Till now he is only the inventor of the "Original
Tantramassage" (as a brand), but not at all of the so called Tantramassage. Perhaps you know his publication about the concept you mentioned. Its
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Hanuman, the (English) internet is not the only source for knowledge! You do not have to buy any books, you can go to a library and lend them... But you have to know the "state of the art". Your statement ("I can only add the information I have access to.") is laziness and not according to
Knowledge
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Those of us who have studied tantra certainly understand that Andro's organization is a front for marketing. For goodness sakes, take one of Daniel Odier's workshops, or read his books. I recommend "Tantric Quest". It'll put a perspective on the matter. In the book, he writes about performing tantic
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There is a growing scene of people who work with Tantra
Massage in Germany and Switzerland. These people use the massage concept of Andro, who is a very experienced Tantra and Massage teacher - he was the first person who used this "Tantra Massage Concept" - not only the term "Tantra Massage" but a
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Tantra and
Tantric are one in the same. The term 'Tantra' is a noun, whereas 'Tantric' is an adjective. The correct term for a massage based on the practice of tantra would be a "Tantric Massage" Again, any first year student of tantra would know this. The fact that you people are discussing issues
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I'm concerned that this article somewhat reads as an advert for the "Tantric
Massage Association", but moreso that the references don't appear to be reliable sources. The book appears to be self-published (or perhaps a vanity publisher?). I'm not dead set on deletion, but I wanted to get more eyes
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This article is consistently changed by 'Hanuman Das', an obvious agent of Andro and his association. Apparently, the same thing was happening in the German edition. The notion that Andro invented this modality is preposterous! It's unfortunate, really ... to have someone who's profile appears to
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I want to inform you about the person Edi
Goetschel. For some reason he is very much against Tantra Massage and tries to make it miserabel whereever he can. It was mainly the work of Edi Goetschel to destroy the German Articel with similiar arguments like he uses
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As you said
Knowledge is a collaborative work. So please accept or respect also other sources than the ones you like. Knowledge has nothing to do with personel preferences. We cited other sources. The sources are not the problem, you are the problem. EOD.
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As I know there is nothing like a licensed association in
Germany and Switzerland. Every group of interested people can form an association, and there are a lot of associations in Germany and Switzerland... See also the entry in the German Knowledge
48:. Requests to provide reliable third-party sources on the topic (rather than just self-interested first-party sources) have not been answered. The article has been edited during the run of this AfD, but the main problem persists. ~
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cited information into the article. I came across a completely uncited article in violation of policy and did my best to fix it immediately based on the resources I have available. Knowledge is a collaborative effort, and I
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refused to cite your sources for the information that you added, therefore that information had to be removed according to WIkipedia policy. Your laziness in learning how to write an article according to
Knowledge policy is
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you could be right, "tantric massage" existed and was refined into official "tantra massage" by the German dude. Still you need to docuement the respective dates from reliable source to make any statement about primacy.
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By the way there are about 300 people in Germany working with Tantra Massage (Andro's style) most of them work together in massage instituts and most of these instituts are members of the Tantra Massage
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there is nothing too strange about that, a lot of thousands of years old practices (or so they are claimed) coming from the asian region will have little references to them in the western world.
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Also if you a search for this and it's variations in name you get hundreds of thousands of ghits. Am sure with minimal effort you can find verifiable sources to you heart's content.
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have to do all the work on the article. If I point out Knowledge's verfiability policy and other users refuse to follow it, their work may be removed. Period. —
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Then why don't you add and cite the information. I can only add the information I have access to. I'm not going to buy any books. The issue here is that
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listed as a reference for the article, there is no such thing as Tantric massage, it is a misnomer, as no massage techniques were included in the
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convey knowledge on the subject be an obvious agent of misguidance by those of us who truly do have knowledge on the subject.- Etheric One
141:? 14 people in all of Germany and Switzerland doesn't seem very notable. I'd really like to see documentation from some 3rd party source.
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from book publication dates, etc. Also, note that the article is titled "Tantra massage" not "Tantric massage". Is there a difference as
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The Original Tantramassage in the style of Andro has a very clear structure and clear borders, sexual exchange is not allowed.
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suggests below? Is "tantra massage" simply a well-defined and possibly trademarked form of "tantric massage"? If so, both TMA
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Very thin on reliable sources. For what it's worth, I'm Swiss and haven't heard of this technique or any such association.
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such as this is quite telling. Please, if you don;t know anything about tantra, move on to another subject. - Etheric One
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If you can find a source that docuements the history of the use of the term, you can use and cite it. You just can't
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a
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Kaukaukau, Knowledge is an encyclopedia and not a messageboard for your personal opinion about other persons!
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No, I repeatedly asked "Etheric One" to provide his sources. It's on the talk page. I was and am happy to
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Out of his students developed some very motivated practitioners who made his work more and more popular.
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for a practice allegedly "over 5,000 years old" there sure aren't many verifiable sources for this. -
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below.
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Tantramassage practitioners do not want to be mixed up with prostitutes!
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on it after it came to my attention from an edit war.--
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