1009:, I'm not fussed by removing the superscript numbers, but I need so discuss the order of the States and Territories. I've been reviewing a lot of the Australian navigation templates and articles and noted a convention of the order NSW, Vic, Qld, WA, SA, Tas, ACT, NT. Where this convention has not been used I have been changing it to this order. Can you please point me to some sort of authority on how the states should be ordered. If you look on my user page I have displayed the different Australian navigation templates I have found and made consistent. If the order I am setting is wrong and the "law" is they must be alphabetical, then I have a lot of articles and templates to change again. Let me know or else I will put the order back to how I had it.
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country to have had referendum about changing the constitution as a whole, or a part of it, or just a law, binding or not, with compulsory voting or not. It's not like it's a monolyth of one single type except in
Australia. In the end, they're all about asking the voter their opinion as direct democracy tools. Just like we have one section for election, and not different ones split along whether First past the post or Preferential voting was used.--
867:
2046:: as mentioned above with several exemples, all others templates have all referendum together, no matter their official names, them being compulsory or not, binding or not, constitutional or not, etc, just like elections are kept together in the same way despite similar differences. Australia is no special case. There's no point to split these, just like there would be no point splitting elections by electoral systems or compulsory votes.--
165:
1943:
was pointing out that this is the case for other countries and they don't feel the need to separate out the rows. I edit election/referendum articles across all countries, and I hope you appreciate that it can be frustrating when editors try and claim their country is somehow a special case (when almost always it isn't). Also, you don't have to ping me; I have this page on my watchlist. Cheers,
1653:
degree of standardization across templates. While consensus is not determined by vote, I do think the relatively even split here is telling: five editors participated in this debate; three supported keeping plebiscites and referenda together; two supported separation. In light of the relatively few users and the closeness in the quality of arguments, I find
1465:: But in Australia a referendum is explicitly a binding vote to amend the constitution and a plebiscite is essentially a survey. A plebiscite is not a referendum and I personally would rather not to include (1916 • 1917 • 1977 • 2017) than to have it in the same section as "Referendums" because they are very different things.
1641:, even though the terms are legally distinct in the Philippines. (Though I also credit GMH Melbourne for pointing out that the Philippines template has far more distinctions than this template.) Aréat expressed concern for consistency across templates should splitting on internal distinctions become commonplace.
1762:
says "Unlike voting in elections and referendums, which is compulsory in
Australia, responding to the survey was voluntary." Anyone who reads that will be confused as to why this template says it was a referendum. Although the 1916 and 1917 articles refer to them as referendums, they acknowledge this
1235:
We've got many different country templates. All of them mix election and referendum whether they're compulsory or not. Why would it be different for
Australia? Why make a different section on this basis when the election section itself isn't divided between election before and after 1924, when voting
1942:
OTHERCONTENT can be a valid point though, because it is important that
Knowledge is consistent in how it presents information (hence why we have things like templates in the first place). You claimed the lines here should be separated because referendums and plebiscites are legally different, but I
1652:
is ascertained by the quality of the arguments given on the various sides of an issue, as viewed through the lens of
Knowledge policy. From my perspective, neither side had an obviously stronger argument—it's valid to tailor templates to a country, and it's also valid to consider that there is a
1446:
I believe we shouldn't split sections upon such internal difference, otherwise we go down an endless path of splitting. With some countries we would have five different subestions. Even there, one could argue about making one more different section about "Survey". It's not unusual at all for a
1611:, in modern usage, referenda are, exclusively, proposals to modify the Constitution—these proposals have legal force and participation is mandatory. Plebiscites, on the other hand, do not have legal force and participation is voluntary. Steelkamp also brought up two links on the template: the
1897:
In the
Philippines (the example cited above) they also have a legal difference – constitutional revisions are plebiscites and other questions referendums, so Australia is not a special case. In addition, the solution suggested above by Aréat to simply change the row title to "Plebiscites and
1794:
In the
Philippines (the example cited above) they also have a legal difference – constitutional revisions are plebiscites and other questions referendums, so Australia is not a special case. In addition, the solution suggested above by Aréat to simply change the row title to "Plebiscites and
382:
I actually prefer this template. It sets the federal elections out as a series, and covers all of them - it's a really handy feature for the bottom of an article. The
Politics of Australia template, on the other hand, I think tries to cover too much - I don't really see a need for all the
977:
The vertical dividers and flagicons are standard for 200+ elections templates, so I wouldn't advise changing them (the flag one can't be changed without changing the metatemplate anyway). The superscript displays fine for me on two different resolutions. Which one are you using?
1052:, when I noticed the order. I found about half the current Knowledge articles I looked at had this order for Australian states and territories and the other half were random order. I think it makes good sense to Australians. I think a good example to demonstrate my theory is
961:
Hi. Anyone else find the superscripts in this template to be miniscule? I'm tempted to amend them and also replace the vertical-lines with the more discreet dot-dividers and place the flag icons on the lefthand side of the headings (since
English read from left to right).
2171:
The referendum is 99% going to happen. I think it is safe to add it in. If it ever becomes that case that it's not happening then I won't be the end of the world and we can simply remove the link. In the meantime I think it will be useful to readers to include the link.
1854:' means a compulsory and binding national vote to alter the constitution which requires a double majority (a majority of people and a majority of states). A plebiscite on the other hand is a simple vote or survey on an issue or policy and has nothing to do with the
1771:
held on the same day. The 2017 one is pretty much exclusively called a plebiscite. Comparisons to other countries are irrelevant because other countries have different laws and may not differentiate between referendums and plebiscites in such a way as
Australia
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Include them in a single line. There is no need to overcomplicate what is meant to be a simple navigation template (this is not the place to educate readers as to the difference between a plebiscite and referendum). It is not standard practice (for example
1972:}} also separates 'Constitutional conventions' and 'Referendums' which is actually quite similar to what I am proposing. Every country is different and in this case I think the distinction between a referendum and plebiscite is an important one to make.
503:
Right you are. I would have been responding to your initial removal while, unbeknownst to me, you were performing the secondary edit to add the footnoting. Good job too. That looks much better yet preserves the relevant information. Cool :)
2099:
Firstly, how are we defining "confirmed"? The Bill for the referendum has now been tabled in Parliament. We have multiple sources stating that the referendum will be held this year including statements from relevant Ministers and from the
938:
Maybe, but I do see anyone mentioning this guideline from the manual of style. That seriously discourages having the flags next to the name of the country. Anyway, it is too close to Christmas to argue. Seasonal greetings to all.
2111:, why is there a higher threshold for inclusion of a link on this obscure template than for its own article? Does anyone seriously think that the referendum be cancelled? There is no evidence that the idea is being considered. (
1321:, whereas a plebiscite would just be a national survey on opinions. That being said I don't think we should mirror the practices of another country a) because Australia has different frameworks and mechanisms and b) because
392:
I agree with Rebecca - they both serve a purpose, and it's the politics of Australia one that should be cut down, not the Australian elections one. Leave this one as it is, or better still, as they were in the first place.
413:
I'd also prefer if the elections template remained. Remove all the election content from the politics of Australia template to the elections template, and beef up the politics template with any additional relevant links.
304:
With the exception of the last couple, the elections should be removed from the Politics of Australia template rather than them merged. This is standard practise throughout the Politics and Elections series in Knowledge.
481:
I have not removed meaningful content, I have merely used a footnote to highlight it instead of two extra lists. Also, the Senate links are not repeats, as they are not included in the federal elections row.
437:
What are the stylistically reasons for including the Aussie flag in all 5 headers of the list subcategories? We know the list is Australian because it says so. The repeated flags look cluttered. --
1529:
matter, and it will be rejected; DRN is for intractable disputes (usually ones that have turned antagonistic). This is simply a matter for which there is no consensus (which regularly happens).
1637:, and Steelkamp noted that not every other country has a legal distinction between the two terms. But I do also credit Number 57 for pointing out that referenda and plebiscites are paired in
1246:
If you go through many countries election templates, you will notice that over the centuries a lot of them had referendum which sometimes were named differently than referendum (for example
1236:
was made compulsory? Besides, The turnout isn't that different. The 2017 one had a 80 % turnout, way above most countries and even above some in which elections are compulsory (for example
470:
The removal of relevant meaningful content cannot be justified on the basis that it makes the flag look cluttered. The flag icon is superfluous and secondary to the informative content. --
768:
should be simplified. Maybe just list each country's name, sectioned alphabetically per current, with each name being the hyperlink to their respective individual Elections template? --
703:
That list needs changing, as more than half the templates don't show up (there must be some kind of limit to how many templates a single page can show) - perhaps a return to links to
1691:
As can be seen in the discussion directly above, I am suggesting that the navbar about the election history of Australia separate referendums and plebiscites into two sections
1879:
I also think it's important not to compare Australia's Navbox to other countries because referendums/ plebiscites can mean different things within a country's legal framework.
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1968:}}, they have five different sections for their elections, so does that mean Australia should seperate senate-only elections, general elections and half-senate elections? {{
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1403:' has a different meaning than that of other countries. The difference between referendums vs plebiscites isn't compulsory vs voluntary, rather a referendum changes the
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Standard practice is to only link to referendums once they are officially scheduled. Until the bill is passed in parliament, the referendum in question isn't. Cheers,
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I think they should be included, but in the same line as referendums. We wouldn't separate out (for example) binding and non-binding referendums in other countries.
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was compulsory (and the one later this very year will also be compulsory, but it doesn't have a page yet). Notice how all three of them are grouped together on the
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The discussion of the naming for the senate-only elections (whether to use "Senate-only elections", "half-Senate elections" or "Senate elections") is happening at
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When the template is viewed in situ on an article, the flag repetition doesn't appear to add much stylistic or content value. For example, see
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It was discussed several months ago, and there was no consensus to remove the flags. To be honest, I think it makes the template look better.
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1314:, where as a plebiscite is essentially a survey of public opinion in relation to policy, I therefore think that the distinction is important.
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non-electoral content in these articles, and I don't really see a need for every election to be linked in non-electoral political articles.
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by saying "Such a ballot is now usually referred to as a plebiscite to distinguish it from a referendum to alter the Constitution." The
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I've taken it back to just being links to the Elections in XX articles, though perhaps it would look better without the headings, just:
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1055:. The Government weather website uses this order, and Australians are very used to this order every night on the weather forecasts.
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The original question remains, though, of the stylistic value of repeating a miniature Aussie flag on small-font list like this? --
1254:), or switched between mandatory and non mandatory voting, and yet we don't split the elections templates into as many sections.--
360:. Do not blank this again before you have consensus. Why doesn't Australia have a sidebar politics template like everywhere else?
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So it seems the government uses both. In this case, I think we should defer to another denominator, which is alphabetical order.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
1198:: "Unlike voting in elections and referendums, which is compulsory in Australia, responding to the survey was voluntary."
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294:- is redundant. The senate elections and referendums should be placed into that template, and this template scrapped. -
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1619:—though each is termed "referendum", the latter article notes that the modern parlance would call them "plebiscites".
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I don't think that is necessary. The discussion seems to going round in circles so I've requested a fresh set of eyes
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Secondly, why do we need to wait until it is "confirmed"? It has already met the notability requirements for its own
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both contended that the combination of referenda and plebiscites is fairly standard practice across countries. As
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be included in this template under the Referendum section, under a new section, or not in the template at all (
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has both referendums and plebiscites on the same line) and I see no reason why Australia is a special case.
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The Constitutional Convention row is elections to constitutional conventions, not referendums/plebiscites.
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The chief argument in favor of segregation was that there is (now) a distinction in usage and effect: Per
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660:(where a single flagicon can easily be added next to the section title for improved stylistic effect). --
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I have removed two of the lists - they were the main reason for cluttering rather than the flagicon.
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severely overlaps with this template, and having both together - as is currently the case with
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But every country is unique as their mechanisms of democracy differ. To use the example of {{
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This RFC concerned whether referenda and plebiscites should be segregated on this template.
1240:). I don't think this is a good enough reason to make such a split. Do notice that the page
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The logic is sorted by population, largest first. I started this a couple of days ago here
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As I wrote above, it has been discussed before, and there was no consensus to remove them.
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I agree with Number57, leave this template in peace, it's part of a very sensible series. —
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is suggesting that the referendum and plebiscites be merged with one another (like the
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I think they should be included in the template but under a plebiscites section as per
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Still disagree - it doesn't list half Senate elections. Plus this template is used on
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includes these plebiscites, so there would be two sections linking to the same thing.
1194:. Having plebicites with the referendums directly contradicts the first paragraph of
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1399:: I think we should avoid comparing Australia to other countries because the term '
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How many countries have compulsory referendums like Australia. It's not very many.
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mostly calls it a plebiscite, with mentions of a referendum only referring to the
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To provide an example from another country, a referendum is the US equivalent to
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and other aspects of democratic decision-making. For more information, visit
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should not be added until it is "confirmed". I take a few issues with this:
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1703:). As the discussion keeps going around in circles, I am initiating a RfC.
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I can see your point. Wouldn't it be enough, though, to have the header be
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Fair enough. Whatever is standard, so long as it's one way or the other. -
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Knowledge talk:WikiProject Australian politics#Senate-only or half-senate?
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at the bottom, all the navigation templates have the order I had. See
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Knowledge:Manual of Style (flags)#Help the reader rather than decorate
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In Australia a referendum is the only instrument that can change the
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No worries, I withdrew the DRN request. They have suggested a RfC.
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I too agree that the distinction is important to be made as per the
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1364:. A very recent example of such a difference would be Chile. The
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Where is this standard practice stated? It's not what we did
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It seems to me that the flags are in breach of the guideline
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The note included in the template currently states that the
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no point in doing this, the two topics are similar enough
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RfC - Including plebiscites under the referendums header
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You can see a list of countries with compulsory voting
1858:, for instance 'what is the preferred national song' (
1380:, regardless of name, effect or compulsory voting.--
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1028:seem to use. What is the logic of the above order?
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185:, which aims to improve Knowledge's coverage of
106:Knowledge:WikiProject Elections and Referendums
2209:WikiProject Elections and Referendums articles
193:. If you would like to participate, visit the
109:Template:WikiProject Elections and Referendums
1756:Separate out the referendums and plebiscites.
658:List of election results by country#Australia
433:Inclusion of Aussie flag on every list header
2012:Regardless, I think my point still stands.
1250:, or sometimes weren't binding (for example
2224:Template-Class Australian politics articles
1898:referendums" would deal with your concern.
1795:referendums" would deal with your concern.
1024:I can point you to the alphabet, which the
2229:NA-importance Australian politics articles
1765:1977 Australian plebiscite (National Song)
1001:Order of Australian states and territories
2153:last time there was a proposed referendum
32:does not require a rating on Knowledge's
2234:WikiProject Australian politics articles
2104:. What more confirmation do we require?
1617:1917 Australian conscription referendum
1613:1916 Australian conscription referendum
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1378:1989 Chilean constitutional referendum
1760:Australian Marriage Law Postal Survey
1196:Australian Marriage Law Postal Survey
1129:Australian Marriage Law Postal Survey
1122:Australian Marriage Law Postal Survey
256:, since it affects several articles.
79:WikiProject Elections and Referendums
76:This template is within the scope of
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1682:The following discussion is closed.
707:below each heading would be better.
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358:List of election results by country
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1633:said, that is, to some extent, a
423:I've amended the other template.
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2219:NA-importance Australia articles
2079:The discussion above is closed.
1370:2022 Chilean national plebiscite
1366:2020 Chilean national plebiscite
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902:. I suggest they be removed. --
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1368:was non compulsory, while the
764:{ec} So it does, and I agree:
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346:and remove this template.
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860:Elections in the Bahamas
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