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native machine code before running it. Also, while there are a few java compilers out there that can create a native executable from a Java project, the majority of Java applications are delivered as Java bytecode and rely on the JVM to execute them. Compiling the language directly to a standalone (machine code) executable implies that not only is a JVM not used but also that the Java libraries, which the application most certainly uses, are compiled and delivered as native code as well. This is just not the case today.
31:
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Adrian
Joniano (Professor in Computer Science, RMIT Doncaster) this whole issue of JVM alone renders Java almost certainly obsolete within 5 years if not resolved and it is expected that Microsoft will pounce with an evolved .Net by then. If any consolation come to Java and it's compilation issues it will be that at least when SUN delivered the product it extended its native drivers asynchronously to reconcile any threading issues. Portability all a farce in the end.
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affect this rather simplistic measurement, though, due to generational GC. I suspect it could be hard to comment on this in the article without getting in trouble with some people. This is somewhat speculative, but the assertion that 'GC is unavoidably slow' is even more speculative (dare I say provably false, as per the experiment I mention).
147:, and we already got that covered). But the present examples are better suited (after some necessary cleanup) for a "gentle introduction to Java"-type writeup, perhaps on Wikibooks. I'd much prefer to keep code examples to a minimum, unless they serve to illustrate specific language constructs (e.g. the generalized
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Syntax details are of great benefit to some of the people, they're encyclopedic in nature (as is formal grammar), and they require very little effort to create and maintain (much of it can be copied and pasted from other languages, and the syntax for a language tends to change very little over time).
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The more similar some languages are, the more difficult it can be to get a clear idea of how they differ, and the more helpful I find it is to list the syntax for each of them. As an example, I learned PHP, Perl, and Bash scripts at roughly at the same time, all of which share a common ancestry and a
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My preference would be to move as much as possible to the child article. However, I could also see some logic in including the annotated Hello World example in the Java programming article to give a reader of the Java article the flavor of the syntax. While I could see expanding the summary somewhat
301:
In the
Criticisms:Performance Impacts section, it is mentioned that Garbage Collection 'unaviodalbly harms performance and memory usage' which is not neccesarily the case. Often, for large data sets with many small elements GC can dominate conventional malloc/free implementations, and in other cases
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On the same note, I'd have no objection to including the formal grammar, as long as there's even a single person that finds it useful, and as long as it doesn't weigh down the main article. I don't think the easy availability of info from other sources, or the size of the target audience, is enough
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The basic syntax is almost identical to that of languages such as C or C++. A paragraph noting this similarity I think would be much more fruitful than a reexplanation. What would be exciting and interesting would be a page possibly describing the grammar of Java in formal forms (EBNF or somesuch).
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Recently, someone changed the Python article, putting the philosophy at the beginning of the article with the commentary, "Put philosophy before history (what it IS is more important than how it got there)." So far no one has objected to that particular change, and it made sense to me. Would anyone
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I don't know who wrote that last paragraph, but it shows a different view of reality to mine. First, we have applications which run as JVM or C++ (with a preprocessor to convert), and they are of comparable speed - for some code the Java applets even run faster for some reason. Modern JITs are very
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Compiling Java to the native machine will always produce more reliability and not necessarily performance. What must be realised also is that Java is already on the backfoot with execution speed against the likes of .NET which of course doesn't have the JVM/Native type of issues anyway. Speaking Dr
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in a tight loop in C or C++ and the equivalent Java loop show GC to outperform usual implementations of free/malloc by a factor of ten. In Sun JDK allocation is about 10 machine instructions and deallocation is (almost) zero instructions since GC does not touch garbage. The life time of objects may
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This point no longer seems to be very valid. Although the mention of regex in J2SE 1.4 is nice, the truth is that Java now has reg ex support every bit as good as perl or php. The above sentence is misleading...it seems to say that Java's regex is lacking, having early, minor support at best. That
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to the list of packages in the articleāthe article is nearly a complete subset.) The only really relevant thing that needs to be discussed regarding the platform is to describe the distinction between the platform and the language and explain what constitutes the platform. I suspect that can be
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At the very least, would a brief summary (moving everything else to the syntax article) be an adequate solution? Not necessarily an ideal solution but an adequate one. I'd favor moving as much of the syntax info as possible (aside from a brief summary) into the sister article, so that if someone
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This sentence is wrong for a few reasons. The implication of this sentence, by comparing it to native execution, is that JVMs interpret Java bytecode. While this might of been the case in early Java versions, it's almost never the case today. Practically all modern JVMs compile Java bytecode to
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I agree. The introduction is terrible. I've removed some of the really obscure trivia ("Oak" was named after a tree outside someone's office) but just about everything else that's in the introduction (i.e. everything after "Java is an object-oriented programming language ..." down to "shares a
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Another common Java mistake. The type of memory and the way to reference it are separate. In Java objects are really pointers which are automatically referenced and primitive types are references. In C++ all types are handled in exactly the same way. You can have pointers point to automatic or
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Consider that java.lang contains classes that are central to the language. The article on the language already has significant discussion of the libraries. The sections in the Java SE article that list and summarize the packages are better served by the
Javadoc API documentation. (Compare
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I started out writing a response here in favor of putting philosophy first based on the argument that the history is rarely succinct, whereas philosophy should be. However, examining the article on Java convinced me that my argument didn't hold. The philosophy is definitely a more in-depth
691:, for describing and discussing the content reorganizing I've been doing in the past couple weeks for a number of programming-language articles. I recently tried moving the Java history much farther down in the article, but quickly reverted the change because of feedback from a couple users.
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very similar but inconsistent syntax. I found it to be invaluable to have cheat sheets (brief listings of the syntax) to avoid confusing one language with another. The same applies with C++ and Java; they're very similar syntactically, but there are inconsistencies throughout the syntax.
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I agree with Nigelj and Neilc. The code examples that were recently inserted, removed, and reinserted are rather amateurish ("a void is a function") and are not really representative of the language. I wouldn't object to a "Hello, world" program (though the proper place for that is
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The syntax details are not attempting to teach someone to use the language, and they're not attempting to teach the basic concepts of programming (the "References" and "External links" sections serve that purpose), they're simply showing in detail what the language actually is. HTH
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I'm working on splitting off the syntax section, but I'm a little unsure about exactly where to draw the line and what to leave behind. Should everything except a brief summary of the syntax be moved into the "Java syntax" article, or should some parts of it be left behind? For the
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I think the article needs some code examples which go beyond hello world (which often doesn't tell much about a language in most cases). Especially for Java as an object oriented language it seems to pay off to have an example which somehow shows how classes are implemented.
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In C++ there are two different kinds of memory. Memory for automatic objects, which is handled by the language and dynamic memory, which is handled by the programmer. All this requires is a correctly written constructor and destructor method for each class which uses "new".
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The introduction states that Java is a variant of C++ with a "more robust runtime environment." As far as I know, C++ has no runtime environment except the operating system itself, which the JVM also runs on top of. Can we fix this little erratum? --Duke
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Plus, most of the details can be isolated in sister pages, without weighing down the main articles. In other words, there's a need, it's appropriate, and it doesn't get in the way of anything else. So I don't really see a downside.
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Added up, those little differences in syntax of one language to another have as much to do with identifying what the language is, and how it's different from other languages, as do the high-level discussions about philosophy and
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Not all projects or environments require enterprise-level complexity, such as stand-alone websites or sole-proprietorship programmers. Such individuals find Java's self-enforcing complexity management to be
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freely available. There is no such guarantee with most other sources of information, regardless of how easily and readily available they are at present. Adding encyclopedic info to
Knowledge essentially
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article should be merged here. The difference between the Java language and the Java platform is hopelessly blurred. You can't discuss the language in abscence of the libraries in any meaningful way.
206:, where a program consumes more and more memory without cleaning up after itself. Even worse, if a region of memory is deallocated twice, the program can become unstable and will likely crash.
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good - and they run native code. As for portability: we ship Java applets which run on
Windows, Macs and Linux boxes, as well as Java players for mobile phones. I don't think .NET does this.
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But it really is a terrible example, full of errors in terminology and demonstrating nothing useful about the language or OO in general. Where to begin? I'm a bit tied up at the moment. --
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Per this discussion, I've removed the examples again. If someone really does want to keep them, please improve them before just blindly re-adding them to the page (but I tend to agree with
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Java has obtained a reputation for slow performance, primarily because most users have targeted the Java virtual machine rather than compiling the language directly to native machine code.
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for details on a popular C implementation of a garbage collection. On the other hand the
Language characteristics:Automatic Garbage collection section is very accuarte and independent. -
202:. In C++, memory is allocated by the programmer to create an object, then deallocated to delete the object. If a programmer forgets or is unsure when to deallocate, this can lead to a
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I think these sections have worthwhile content, but I think including a high-level summary and a link to a child article for each of these sections would tighten up the article. ā
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The summary need more info about what Java is, rather than all this about history and who makes it. Something about what makes Java speical, it's popularity, commons uses, --
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object to placing history immediately after philosophy for the Java article, or for other programming articles in general? Please feel free to comment either here, on the
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articles, the main article still covers a lot of ground about the syntax, and the syntax article does a lot more than just listing correct syntactical expressions.
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similar C-like syntax." should be moved out of the intro and replaced by a brief explanation of what Java actually is, where it's used and why it's significant. --
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Java's support of text matching and manipulation is not as strong as languages such as Perl or PHP, although regular expressions were introduced in J2SE 1.4.
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I added a brief summary to the beginning of the syntax section. In theory, this is all that would be left behind when the syntax article gets created. --
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wants to learn about the syntax, they simply go to the syntax article, period; they don't have to keep going back and forth between the two articles. --
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110:. Of course we may discuss what kind of a more longish example to include so this is just to be considered as a placeholder for a more longish example.
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for example is an international standard, therefore everybody is allowed to develop an own C compiler/linker/IDE. What about Java in this context? --
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programmers can become confused with Java because in Java primitives are always automatic variables and objects always reside on the heap, whereas
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Is is really useful to clutter the article with basic syntax as this? We're not here to instruct the user on how to write basic Java.
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stylistically different than the rest of the article being primarily recapitulations of information widely available elsewhere.
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discussion of Java and less likely to be accessible to a lay reader. So now I've gone 180Ā° before even presenting my case. ā
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article. I don't have any plans to split off the
Resources section, but I'd have no objection to someone else doing so. --
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563:, not the language. I left .NET in the info box for now, but unless there are objections, I intend to remove it. --
559:, which is the real influence of the Java language. .NET should be listed as a software platform influenced by the
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of an argument to avoid adding something to
Knowledge. One of the key qualities of Knowledge is that the content
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In almost all cases, history should be before anything else. It is important for framing the article properly.
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If you insist on keeping it, can you please make it suck less? Because the current version is pretty bad.
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With the current reorganization of the article, the sections on syntax and resources stand out now as:
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from what you have included, I would not expand it to the same extent as the C programming article. ā
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claimed, in a Forbes magazine article he wrote, to have started the Java project (linked from his
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I realize this article is already too long, and we should be discussing splitting parts off (see
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that the knowledge won't be lost, that it will remain permanently in the hands of the community.
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If memory serves, the Java standard is open; Sun's Java virtual machine implimentation is not.
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1052:. We could link to that, but I don't see the point of also having the formal grammar here. --
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Done. I moved all of the syntax except for the summary and the Hello World example into the
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I'm pretty comfortable with leaving only the summary and the Hello World example behind. --
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I am the anon above. Why was the {{TOCleft}} reverted? Not everyone runs at 1280x1024. --
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I'll try to split off the syntax section before it gets too ridiculously longĀ :-) --
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The following sentence begins the
Performance Impacts section (under Criticisms)...
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If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the
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that an example isn't really needed, on the main article page at least).
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programmers are explicitly given the choice in both cases by means of
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Added TOCleft (article is hard to read otherwise on <= 1024x768).
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I started the Java project at Sun
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comment added by ] (] ā¢ ]) 13:04, 16 December 2005 213.134.124.81
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loop), as opposed to general lessons about object orientation. --
932:#Moving sections on Syntax and Resources out to child articles
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Moving sections on Syntax and Resources out to child articles
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Is Java open source? Under what license is Java distributed?
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the syntax chapter of the Java Language Specification
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My impression of what influenced what is: Java =: -->
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http://www.hpl.hp.com/personal/Hans_Boehm/gc/#details
703:(one user has already commented on my talk page). --
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For this reason I reinserted the example deleted by
194:One possible argument against languages such as
592:IL code; I was considering removing it also. --
573:.NET is more comparable to (and competes with)
715:User:Dysprosia#location_of_the_history_section
408:). Should that be mentioned in this article?
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577:. I agree with your removal.
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