2006:. Interestingly, users like Hovhannesk do not like this system, they only like their system (which they will only apply within the limits of their narrow interest); I have seen Hovhannesk emptying categories of the "x of y descent" type and moving them to an "Iranian Armenian" model, without even bothering to replicate the place it had in the category tree, leaving the new category isolated. This is what I'm trying to avoid, this type of inconsistency, that is harmful to the entire project and very hard to remedy, is what we should all consider avoiding.
800:--- I based the above numbers on comparison in the plural form since virtually all of these are referring to the group of people (and note that these are all clearly referring to Armenians of Iran, not Iranians in Armenia). Searching in the singular form will give you roughly equal hits for either ordering; however, most aren't on the topic we're discussing, but instead refer to interstate relations (e.g. "Iranian-Armenian border") or contain random colocations of the two separate words (like "Armenian, Iranian" or "
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1873:(be it in the "x-y" or "y-x" form). This makes the entire argument about usage a false analogy - or, in any case, invites the question: Would it not be equally legitimate to perform a search what form is most preferred in the outside world for all sorts of ethnonyms together, not just for one, and then retroactively apply the same standard to each and all? I'll repeat the above: None of the two variants is unorthodox or insulting (so there is no
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2646:"His first expedition resulted in the deportation of thousands of Armenians from the town of Julfa, situated on the Aras River, in Nakhichevan, to Isfahan. Resettled in a newly built suburb called New Julfa, these were allowed to conduct their own affairs under the control of the state while retaining their religion. Under the patronage of the shah, New Julfa grew into a town of some 30,000
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1998:, but mutatis mutandis), there is no real way of managing entries to avoid confusion - an Iranian (ethnic Persian?) living in Armenia and an ethnic Armenian living in Iran would end up in the same category. This has happened in the past, regardless of how many headers ambitious users will place at the top of categories - one has to read them to comply with them!
1767:, surname first/given name first (e.g. Hungary --- always English order; Japan --- English order after 1867; Korea --- always native order), or any other topic area where names and may differ. It does not matter what you call Italians in America or Ethiopians in Kazakhstan or whatever. I did a quite thorough search of scholarly and journalistic searches in
1979:. Now we finally have a title which is aligned with the category title and with the other articles in the category, and for the most part matches scholarly usage for the country in question. So we got a reasonable result for a bad reason. So what? If you're having a conflict with Hovhannesk, take it up on his talk page and leave the rest of us out of it.
1911:) don't try imposing one standard on every single author. (The articles therein are typically headed "Fooians in Barland", but in the actual article texts you can see Barian Fooians, Fooian Barians, Foobarians, etc.) I don't see why Knowledge should impose a worldwide convention either, especially when it would result in names which are
1804:
how to name these articles" addresses me and what I've said, it so misses the point it's not even funny. The name used here is one of several equally valid notions, regardless of which is most used (the "most used" in this case would have to refer to a random preference in random sources) - we can all agree we have to pick just
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Armenian citizenship, in defiance of categorization guidelines and standards. It may be a patriotic initiative of some sort, but it is terribly counterproductive as such, particularly when it includes one article on all levels of the same category. This is something that needs to be corrected, not encouraged.
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With all due respect, who cares about "the actual article texts", whether in the wikipedia article or the source up for scrutiny? Nobody is talking about suggesting, let alone imposing, a single-ever reference to the same concept within all contexts, just a single title. This, per your own admission,
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This initiative of
Hovhannesk ignores the global situation and limits itself to Armenians worldwide, for which it has created a special system that is inconsistent with all precedents. It is on par with his moves to include articles on people from the Armenian diaspora into categories relating to the
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The above is a perfect illustration of the uphill struggle one has to face to get a simple point across after a group of wikipedians spontaneously decides to create a problem where there was none. If "all the people who think that the entire world should be following their home country's standard of
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Anyone who is literate can see from the first sentence of this article that it discusses
Armenians in Iran, not Iranians in Armenia or people with both citizenships or people of mixed descent or whatever other fanciful interpretation you can come up with for these double-barrelled ethnonyms. We have
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reasons. I am only here because the ramifications of this conflict directly touched and messed with pages that I have contributed to, articles that fall in the middle of this divide. I suppose that is an approach you can understand and respect, so I will respectfully ask not to be portrayed as some
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Yes, the categories too are subject to these whims, especially because people with stubborn preferences form tiny camps that battle with each other on very small areas - precisely what happened here. The moves you mention echo that lack of communication, and it is entirely irrelevant whether or not
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has generated this notice as a focus of cleanup efforts, and also contacted several contributing editors of the article to bring their attention to the problem. You should use this section to discuss possible resolution of the problem and achieve consensus for action. Only when there is a consensus
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The move is astonishingly absurd. It is amazing that people went with
Hovhannesk's obstinate application of an obscure system, which he has single-handedly been pushing into articles with countless page moves going against consensus, without realizing what this implies. People: it does not matter
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As for the "whatever other fanciful interpretation you can come up with for these double-barrelled ethnonyms" part: I think you missed my point entirely. I have not ever suggested that any distinction should be made between descent and double citizenship within the article etc. May I suggest you
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personal preference, and this makes it even more paradoxical that you would be speculating about the personal preferences of someone other than
Hovhannesk. It is for this reason, for this irrational non-argument only, that it became "relevant" which name takes precedence and why this false lead
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Lastly: I am a decent editor with a good standing in the community, whose interest is in improving the quality and structure of information on wikipedia. In this case, I am the one who noted incompatibilities of vision between users who will not communicate with each other, but who are working
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What is "astonishingly absurd" here is the desire of some
Wikipedians to invent a world-wide standard of naming in a topic area where real-world writers follow no such standard. In Knowledge we have a widely-accepted process of determining article and category titles on an individual or
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Your statement "It is for this reason, for this irrational non-argument only, that it became "relevant" which name takes precedence" is a gross oversimplification of the situation. In the past five years you can all sorts of undiscussed back-and-forth-and-sideways moves of this article
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The article (which I for one did not create nor name) was "Armenian
Iranian" until Hovhannesk decided to move it to "Iranian Armenian". In doing so, Hovhannesk did not even make a statement about the naming convention in general, but merely suggested that we should not be applying it
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Other images used on this page may also have been nominated -- please check them all by clicking on them to see if there is a deletion notification on the image page. If there is, use the link that takes you to "this image's entry" to comment on the nomination for deletion.
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is what the Ember encyclopedia itself does, so your point about "imposing conventions" eludes me. If you struggle with the (questionable) notion that we would be "inventing" terminology, I can only urge you, again, to read again my earlier post: it does not have to be
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Before jumping in to determine which is one is supposedly more used for one of the terms here, let's note that the basic service we provide for our readers is a minimum of consistency. Let's see: based on this "Iranian
Armenians" rationale, we should have
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be no big deal were this not interfering with the usual order - an order I for one did not decide, do not necessarily prefer, and which has nothing to do with the standard my country of origin (though I don't suppose we are here do discuss the
Romanian
2638:"Shah Abbas relocated an estimated 500,000 Armenians from his Armenian lands during the Ottoman-Safavid War of 1603–1618 to an area of Isfahan called New Julfa, which was created to become an Armenian quarter, and to the villages surrounding Isfahan."
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The way to avoid that debacle, and the way forward, is again to avoid this ambiguity by using a clear category title, the "x of y descent" kind. This seems to have been enforced, at least in the case of categories, with some consistency - though, nb,
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The given source is H. Nahavandi, Y. Bomati, Shah Abbas, empereur de Perse (1587–1629) (Perrin, Paris, 1998). However, looking up the source, there is no mention of this or any other number for the total deportations, the source simply says
1584:. A user moved the article while this discussion was ongoing. I've moved it back and protected the page from being moved again. It's my intent that the protection be removed once the discussion is concluded and the page is moved (or not).
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etc. It is by no means consistent, but note than in most such instances, one we look outside the box, the article title is "ethnic origin in country of residence", not the other way around. Or else change the standard
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entered the debate here. Were it not for that type of rationale, nobody but nobody would find fault with the article title as it was, whereas there are valid concerns surrounding the article title as it now is.
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against each other at different ends - I do not particularly care which system is eventually enforced, but all signs are pointing that one or the other will have to be applied at some point, for
1821:- apparently based on a bogus claim that the name is incorrect (which, if followed consistently, would imply changing the names of tens or hundreds of articles he does not care about). This was
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redirects, disambiguation pages, and header notes to take care of all the people who think that the entire world should be following their home country's standard of how to name these articles.
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have a problem with all form of sectarian editing that facilitates confusion, and have a particular problem with it when it is given enforcement by third-parties based on superficial arguments.
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that the article is now cleaned up should you then de-list it by deleting the cleanup tag from the article, this causes the article to drop off the monthly cleanup-needed list page.
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And, incidentally, the prime reason why "real-world writers" don't follow a standard is that, unlike us, they do not aim to create a single, consistent, document. It is likely that
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The usual estimate for the total number of ALL DEPORTATIONS of
Armenians from the CAUCASUS (not just Julfa) is 250-300,000 (e.g. Herzig, referenced in this WIKI article!).
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I corrected the passage. Armenians of Iran are not an "Iranian people" of Armenian descent." There is no evidence that they have an identity formulated this way.
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I moved the page to "Iranian Armenians" because the previous title suggested that Armenians are foreigners who just live in Iran rather than actual Iranians.
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I moved the page to "Iranian Armenians" because there is nor Armenian having Iranian sDescendants. Yu hardly find Armenians who are married to Iranians.
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The article mentioned 300,000 Iranian Armenians exist but then someone edited it to 3,000,000. I checked the sources and they all say 300,000.
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That is true. Agassi is An Armenian. But when was the last time he helped Armenia , donate anything to Armenia or claimed he is an Armenian ?
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the categories match at the moment. But this raises an interesting point: in a category like "Iranian Armenians" (probably not in this case
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If people like Cher and the System of a Down Guy make the notable Iranian Armenian list then surely Andre Agassi should be there aswell.
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of the two alternatives. For a simple logical reason, we cannot follow both terminologies at once, but they are indeed synonymous
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I don't really see what the big deal is, but the evidence above and the succinct reason offered by Hovhannesk seem compelling.
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I am reading the number 500,000 for the first time in my life. The highest number in scholarship is usually 250-300,000.
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
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It should be Iranian Armenians because it refers to Iranians of Armenian descent, not Armenians of Iranian descent.
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reason for preserving the inconsistency), but one is, in this context, inconsistent without being "more correct".
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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I confirm this. The other incorrect estimates on other pages related to it should be adjusted as well, like
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reread the section of my earlier post where I refer to the issue of "descent" and see what I actually said?
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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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the article is very short and might need expanding, removal or merging with a broader article
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What's the source for the distribution or demographic data in the Distribution section?
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https://web.archive.org/web/20120324074036/http://home.wanadoo.nl/edmond_k/armhist.html
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https://web.archive.org/web/20120324074036/http://home.wanadoo.nl/edmond_k/armhist.html
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http://www.lonelyplanet.com/worldguide/iran/tehran/sights/1000686149?list=true
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http://armenianstudies.csufresno.edu/faculty/kouymjian/articles/columbus.htm
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Resolve the disparity in importance rankings among different ethnic groups
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after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add
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I have played no part in that decision, I just tried to follow the norm
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And no, I have no particular conflict with Hovhannesk personally. I
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None of the two variants is unorthodox or insulting (so there is no
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to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
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Major English-language Iranian and Armenian news outlets like
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in the banner shell. Please resolve this conflict if possible.
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This article has been given a rating which conflicts with the
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But more commonly, they do not follow any convention at all:
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the
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topic area and came to the conclusions already listed above.
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The only major English-language book devoted to this group,
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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use "Iranian Armenian" and almost never "Armenian Iranian"
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500,000 deported? The referenced source doesn't say that!
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http://www.cidcm.umd.edu/mar/assessment.asp?groupId=63010
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I have just added archive links to one external link on
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The following discussion is an archived discussion of a
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Knowledge:WikiProject Ethnic groups/Article requests
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http://armradio.am/arm/news/?part=cult&id=46087
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2147:to let others know (documentation at
362:WikiProject Ethnic groups open tasks:
736:The result of the move request was:
291:This article is within the scope of
191:This article is within the scope of
15:
1919:one way, or "American Italian" for
526:because it has been suggested that:
489:Article Cleanup Co-Ordination Point
311:Knowledge:WikiProject Ethnic groups
38:It is of interest to the following
13:
2729:WikiProject Ethnic groups articles
2719:Start-Class Ethnic groups articles
333:project-independent quality rating
314:Template:WikiProject Ethnic groups
14:
2740:
2490:. Please take a moment to review
2370:. Please take a moment to review
2240:. Please take a moment to review
2100:. Please take a moment to review
629:has been nominated for deletion.
2689:Top-importance Armenian articles
502:
368:
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205:where you can contribute to the
178:
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147:
72:
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20:
2388:http://hayrenadardz.org/history
1808:as the name of the article. It
1693:as long as consistently applied
625:No notice was placed here that
508:
345:This article has been rated as
239:This article has been rated as
126:This article has been rated as
1751:country-by-country basis, and
764:Category:Ethnic groups in Iran
1:
2224:15:44, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
2083:00:13, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
2032:04:23, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
1989:03:26, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
1949:04:23, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
1891:02:56, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
1851:02:41, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
1791:02:14, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
1742:01:11, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
595:03:47, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
305:and see a list of open tasks.
106:Knowledge:WikiProject Armenia
2704:Top-importance Iran articles
2694:WikiProject Armenia articles
2604:01:57, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
2354:05:05, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
1662:07:43, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
1633:11:40, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
1589:03:55, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
1575:06:11, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
1563:Chinese people in Kazakhstan
792:06:11, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
745:11:51, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
707:21:45, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
621:Image nominated for deletion
615:21:42, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
109:Template:WikiProject Armenia
7:
1496:In other countries of the "
659:01:01, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
641:23:00, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
10:
2745:
2567:(last update: 5 June 2024)
2483:Hello fellow Wikipedians,
2474:15:21, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
2437:(last update: 5 June 2024)
2363:Hello fellow Wikipedians,
2317:(last update: 5 June 2024)
2233:Hello fellow Wikipedians,
2189:(last update: 5 June 2024)
2118:|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
2093:Hello fellow Wikipedians,
1935:"Armenian Iranians" - the
351:project's importance scale
245:project's importance scale
219:Knowledge:WikiProject Iran
132:project's importance scale
2709:WikiProject Iran articles
2684:C-Class Armenian articles
2669:03:28, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
2623:03:34, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
1909:Encyclopedia of Diasporas
685:17:36, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
581:19:34, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
544:Knowledge:Manual of Style
375:WikiProject Ethnic groups
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1676:Please do not modify it.
1615:) 21:00, 16 January 2010
728:Please do not modify it.
100:for further information.
2479:External links modified
2359:External links modified
2229:External links modified
2089:External links modified
2060:07:23, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
82:is within the scope of
1715:(nb - the link is for
1368:(more commonly called
762:and the convention of
497:Cleanup Co-ordination
317:Ethnic groups articles
28:This article is rated
2699:C-Class Iran articles
938:The Armenians of Iran
2548:regular verification
2418:regular verification
2298:regular verification
2170:regular verification
2104:. If necessary, add
1931:"Iranian Armenians"
1755:, by looking at the
1559:Bulgarians in France
514:to meet Knowledge's
2538:After February 2018
2408:After February 2018
2288:After February 2018
2267:parameter below to
2160:After February 2018
2139:parameter below to
1508:British Bangladeshi
467:discuss these tasks
373:Here are some open
85:WikiProject Armenia
2592:InternetArchiveBot
2543:InternetArchiveBot
2462:InternetArchiveBot
2413:InternetArchiveBot
2342:InternetArchiveBot
2293:InternetArchiveBot
2165:InternetArchiveBot
1512:British Pakistanis
450:Start an article:
209:and help with our
34:content assessment
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2488:Iranian Armenians
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2238:Iranian Armenians
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1603:comment added by
1555:Indians in Zambia
1538:Malaysian Chinese
1534:Malaysian Siamese
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756:Iranian Armenians
752:Armenian Iranians
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2655:— Preceding
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2069:— Preceding
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2018:
2010:
2003:
1995:
1936:
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802:Indo-Iranian
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699:96.35.95.121
693:— Preceding
668:
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601:— Preceding
598:
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381:Meta-tasks:
367:
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98:project page
83:
79:
40:WikiProjects
2279:Sourcecheck
2151:Sourcecheck
1717:the dialect
1707:instead of
1625:Work permit
1623:per above--
1599:—Preceding
1460:free images
1400:free images
1331:free images
1271:free images
1207:free images
1147:free images
1082:free images
1022:free images
936:Chaquèri's
895:free images
834:free images
671:—Preceding
578:Hajji Piruz
551:PocKleanBot
271:Start‑class
207:discussions
186:Iran portal
2678:Categories
2599:Report bug
2469:Report bug
2349:Report bug
2052:Pouyakhani
1813:standard).
1726:everywhere
1605:Hovhannesk
772:convention
738:Page moved
627:this image
562:Discussion
384:Place the
211:open tasks
2582:this tool
2575:this tool
2452:this tool
2445:this tool
2332:this tool
2325:this tool
2204:this tool
2197:this tool
2019:practical
1765:sports in
1498:Old World
1370:Fereydani
780:Old World
776:New World
768:precedent
760:WP:NC(CN)
587:Capasitor
394:template
94:Armenians
2657:unsigned
2615:Hovsepig
2588:Cheers.—
2458:Cheers.—
2338:Cheers.—
2210:Cheers.—
2108:cbignore
2071:unsigned
1875:inherent
1831:inherent
1761:sport in
1689:just one
1613:contribs
1601:unsigned
946:Press TV
695:unsigned
673:unsigned
652:(unfutz)
634:(unfutz)
603:unsigned
2492:my edit
2372:my edit
2265:checked
2242:my edit
2220::Online
2137:checked
2102:my edit
1996:exactly
1638:Support
1582:Comment
1466:WP refs
1454:scholar
1406:WP refs
1394:scholar
1337:WP refs
1325:scholar
1277:WP refs
1265:scholar
1213:WP refs
1201:scholar
1153:WP refs
1141:scholar
1088:WP refs
1076:scholar
1028:WP refs
1016:scholar
901:WP refs
889:scholar
840:WP refs
828:scholar
524:cleanup
512:cleanup
377:tasks:
349:on the
243:on the
130:on the
103:Armenia
90:Armenia
59:Armenia
30:C-class
2273:failed
2145:failed
2116:nobots
2046:Number
1929:either
1757:actual
1621:Rename
1594:Rename
1438:Google
1378:Google
1309:Google
1249:Google
1185:Google
1125:Google
1060:Google
1000:Google
873:Google
812:Google
758:— Per
742:Ucucha
665:Agassi
36:scale.
1913:never
1879:moral
1835:moral
1810:would
1481:JSTOR
1442:books
1421:JSTOR
1382:books
1352:JSTOR
1313:books
1292:JSTOR
1253:books
1228:JSTOR
1189:books
1168:JSTOR
1129:books
1103:JSTOR
1064:books
1043:JSTOR
1004:books
916:JSTOR
877:books
855:JSTOR
816:books
782:. ---
327:Start
2665:talk
2619:talk
2269:true
2141:true
2079:talk
2056:talk
2028:talk
2024:Dahn
1985:talk
1945:talk
1941:Dahn
1937:same
1887:talk
1883:Dahn
1847:talk
1843:Dahn
1819:here
1787:talk
1769:this
1738:talk
1734:Dahn
1629:talk
1609:talk
1571:talk
1474:FENS
1448:news
1432:vs.
1414:FENS
1388:news
1345:FENS
1319:news
1303:vs.
1285:FENS
1259:news
1221:FENS
1195:news
1179:vs.
1161:FENS
1135:news
1096:FENS
1070:news
1054:vs.
1036:FENS
1010:news
959:IRNA
909:FENS
883:news
848:FENS
822:news
798:Note
788:talk
703:talk
681:talk
611:talk
591:talk
572:Move
437:Iyer
341:High
216:Iran
199:Iran
155:Iran
92:and
2556:RfC
2526:to
2516:to
2506:to
2426:RfC
2396:to
2386:to
2306:RfC
2283:).
2271:or
2256:to
2178:RfC
2155:).
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2128:to
1981:cab
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1833:or
1823:his
1806:one
1783:cab
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1488:TWL
1428:TWL
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1299:TWL
1235:TWL
1175:TWL
1110:TWL
1050:TWL
923:TWL
862:TWL
784:cab
465:or
235:Top
122:Top
2680::
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