Talk:Carthage/Archive 2

2091:

region and the Kerkouane perninsuala). Part of the confusion arises from the usage of the Greek word "polis" - in actual fact meaning city state, but often confused with meaning just "city" (the correct term being asty). Think about it logically; a population of 700,000 for Carthage (which is as large as modern Tunis!), assuming a population of 100,000 or so for several other major cities of today's Tunisia region (e.g. Hadrumentum, Utica) would imply an urban population of at least (and this is a conservative estimate) a million. There is obviously no doubt that Carthage and the rest of the ancient world worked on a primary economic model (i.e. the great majority of people worked in the countryside - there was certainly no industrial revolution at the time) this would suggest that the total population of ancient Tunisia was somewhere in the region of 10 million - slightly more than the modern equivalent. This figure is obviously ludicrous - most countries populations are nearly ten times larger than they were in ancient times - and indeed is completely unsustainable - how could an area develop an equal population to the present day with only a fraction of the technology? A realistic figure, suggested in Colin McEvedy's book on ancient demographics, would be about 30,000-35,000, which would still make it the third largest city in the world at it's heyday (behind only Athens and Babylon). --

641:...Also those who excavated the site have supported the view that Phoenicians practised child sacrifice. A Greek writer, the third century BC Alexandrian Critarchus tells us how the Carthaginians would sacrifice a child to Chronus every time they needed a big favour. Other ancient sources say or imply that child sacrifice was a feature of Carthaginian religious life. Centuries later, the sources appear to have been vindicated with the discovery of a sacred precinct in Carthage. Dedicated to Tanit Pene Baal and her consort Baal Hammon, the area contained numerous stelae and burian urns, filled with the cremated bones of infants, lambs and kids, along with amulets, beads and jewllery. Biblical evidence also attends to child sacrifice among the Canaanites, as the Bible calls the Phoenicians... In any event the similarity of the literary sources suggest that child sacrifice was a very real part of Charthaginian religious practice... 2557:

tid bits of Carthaginian info much like the quick run through article about Rome. In other words kids Myth's and legends such as sacrafice will have seperate articles all to themselves ^^. I already set up a triad of my student body of at least 17 members with reg accounts to support this move when such oppostion from biased members such as veny peep there little heads out this article will be ready for it. I already have most of the page written all I have to do is complete it and make a few corrections then ill replace the article. This will end the senseless yammering here and put an end to most of the arguments. but then I could see how members who have an axe to grind could contend other wise.

2587:"no editor owned an article" exactly and it seems this article is owned by a few miss fit editors who oppose any editions made to the article that doesent agree with there biased point of view of carthage. As I saw skimming through the edit history. Which is why its time to end this. I mostly do edits in anime and japanese oriented articles but learning about Carthage and its history means I have a real passion for this historical era. Which is why iam going to end this once and for all. In any case iam going to refrain from posting further here until iam finished my draft. I hope this will work out best for all party's a quick skim through is just what this article needs not an entire essay. 3327:

Tunisia bear because it was occupied under the French as it was occupied by the Romans. Heck, you can try to downplay the fact that the only reason we know much of anything about Carthage is because of the Greeks and Romans. You can try and remove these unpleasant facts which don't fit into the way you see the world, and thus you don't want anyone else to see those unpleasant facts - i.e. the rest of the world has to see it your way (either that or you are so pathetically desperate for attention and validation that you have to stir people up for attention, but as this is a rather unkind assumption, I'm going with the "historical revisionist" theory). In the end, it will not matter.

367:

and the Greek Fabricated version of events doese make clear that these people have a way with "Long Lies" and "Streched Truth" , but because we have no information from Carthage itself as in not even a measly little document as the City was mass murdered by the Romans we cant be sure of anything. What about the Berbers? Well they make it clear she did exist they have vaible historical records.. but ill leave that research to you. Perhaps when this vote is over and the thread is unlocked (That is saying if the turn out goes the right way towards TRUTH, then we can input Tid Bits that bring about a truthfull acounting of things. Signed Marduk

4281:

Canaries, but only after Carthage was destroyed. Carthage's position was that of domination of west mediterranean trade. Trade with Indian and East Africa would, in all likelihood, have been the domain of Greeks (Rhodians, Alexandrians, etc) or atleast Hellophones. If someone were to present solid historical or archaeological evidence for Carthaginian trade (something better than conjecture would be nice) in South Asia and East Africa, I would accept it. Otherwise, I submit the above offending passage for deletion. Just because it may have happened doesn't mean we should say it did. D.E. Cottrell 05:22, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

4001:

additions that i would like to make in wiki "form". So my question is whats the likely hood that my hard work would be for nothing and I get stuck in the middle of the edit wars here. First there doesent seem to be many Pro-Carthaginian members here (...) which isent good for a base of info I think, there is Marduk and kara who both have had edit wars with the other "camp" of this article. And I dont think theres to many anti-carthaginian (pro Roman-Greek) people either who had some wars here and there also. I hope I can bring a neutral point to this article, thanks.

3908:

these feelings to determine their positions as to the article's proper content. The most strident and radical contributions have come from what might be simplistically called the "pro-Carthage" camp, which at its most extreme seems to wish that Carthage had decisively won the Third Punic War or that some other circumstance prevented the history of Carthage having any reference whatsoever to that of the islands and north shore of the Mediterranean. This camp also would rather not even acknowledge the possibility that child sacrifice actually occured in Carthage.

3312:

the net. What do I mean? Well iam glad you asked, someone here (E. Vedexent) has sent me what seems to be a desperate hyperactive (passionate) message revealing again his true nature and intentions here are. How sad, Really as for me I could care less what happens here personaly this is my 30 minute break on the computer for me I could be here editing this page or go off and chat with my Naruto Fanboy friends :) (lol) or make random correction on articles that have to do with Anime/manga in general because thats what I enjoy. Here I better just post the quote.

3871:

personal knowledge of the geography of Tunis, but it sounds to me as if there is a suburb there called Qartaj (rendered in English as Carthage?) which is near the site of the ancient city, but not collocal and not necessarily even contiguous to it. Nevertheless, the proximity and the shared name seem to offer no obstacle to identifying ancient Qartḥadašt with modern Qartaj. Such identifications are commonplace, as often the remains of an ancient settlement are, for example, on a hilltop while the modern settlement is at the foot of the hill.

350:

not presently a matter of historical record -- history not being co-extensive with possibility. So it seems the article should neither credit her without qualification, nor consign her purely to myth. Her better-known Dido aspect seems to be only partly mythological, only because the remainder is fictional. The role she plays in the Aeneid seems to have orignated with Virgil. That doesn't mean it needs to be left out of this article, but detail probably should be reserved for the Dido article and for others dealing with the Aeneid. --

31: 2405:

where all the conflicts lie, stand Carthage as an independent city-state and Carthage as superpower. And the discussion of "Life in Carthage" — including sections presently outside that one — for the most part describe those Carthages, ascending and ascendent. So rather than have those sections break the historical series, perhaps they could be put together somehow. And the conflicts would take their places as aspects of Carthaginian history, rather than the essence thereof… --

898:

are cemeteries for children. And yes, these children were often cremated. But large numbers of children would have died as a matter of course, and those don't seem to be accounted for. It seems to be over-zealous to label all infant burial sites as sacrificial sites. I propose to that the clause .. charcoal "probably from the sacrificial pyres" be changed to ...charcoal "indicating either sacrificial pyres or cremation". Otherwise it would seem to be POV, albeit citable.

3791:

Carthage treated Rome like a sorta little brother at the time so I doubt the Romans had any reason to feel greater then more advanced and devolped people of the Republic. In those times I doubt there was such a thing as "racist". People lived under Factions concept rather then a "People" one. There were romans,gauls,greeks,carthaginians,persians etc... but thats it. The only differnce back then and the only "racist" was the line between "Barbarian" and Civilized.

3163:. Garnand's paper is clearly unsympathetic to the revisionist view promoted by Ribichini and others, which he considers to be the result of misconcieved "postcolonial" theory rather than new evidence. He also lists a wide range of sources for the standard view. We could copy those from the article, but I'm loath to do so without having read them myself. Some are in my local academic library, but I don't have time to look at them before the end of the week. 3877:

and viewed with antipathy) or Jews (inferred from previous versions which employed the Semiticists' convention of transcribing Canaanite using "Hebrew" letters, as in קרת חדשת). I haven't tried to remove the Arabic names mostly because their inclusion seems harmless, and partly because I personally like to know all the names of everything. But in the interests of concision, clarity, etc., I would like to settle on

2131:. We have been around this block several times before. The current consensus is that we don't know. There's some evidence pointing at the possibility of child sacrifice but there are few extant Carthaginian documents and none of them mention child sacrifice. It could be true or it could be blood libel. We don't know although the consensus among historians seems to be that there probably was child sacrifice. 2888:

speaking here with unreasonable users (abusive users or single sock puppet users who have broken a few of the rules on more then one occastion). I think thats why Kara umi has refrained from posting here again until actuall editing that has to do with the article can be made, and ill respect him for that and so iam going to shut up right now and leave the less respectible members to there affairs ----

3331:

notice a fact that you "missed" and add it when you're not there - that's how Knowledge works. And you'll probably rip it out. And it will happen again. And again. And again. And someday, you won't be there to rip it out. It might take months. Maybe it will take years. It will happen, because people will keep adding to Knowledge from history and publications, and you can't edit those can you? :)

536:

article on our watchlists will clean up after you if that seems to be needed. Frankly, it's more important that you provide sources and citations than that you provide perfect prose. Many of us can write but don't have familiarity with the academic journals. Finally, if you really feel uncomfortable dropping text into the article itself, just put it here (i.e.

1449:

don't actually see what the problem is here. Human sacrifice and infanticide were practiced in many many ancient cultures. We have evidence for it throughout Europe, in Asia and in the Americas, so there's nothing especially shocking about it, nor is it comparable to the "blood libel" of Medieval times. That occurs within a context in which child-murder is

3405:

is clear in the recent behavoir of certain members simply look above you and go to my talk page. But a troll, dont make me laugh western boy. :) Its not surprising that you should agree with him as I have seen in not only one but three pages in this article you have done nothing but agree with vendexent hmmm... ;) (PS Dont forget your troll feed lol)

1861:

Second, I somewhat got the impression that the high priest was the effective ruler of Tyre. I'm not sure that is a correct interpretaion. 3) It might just be me, but the term "Phoenician Punic" is very heavy. Are there really no alternatives? 4) The article needs to be checked for duplicate information. But all in all, it is an interesting read.

140:

question about Elissar, grandniece of Jezebel. Is this fact or mythology? If the only source is the Bible, then we need to take it with a grain of salt. I'm not saying that the Bible is all fabrication but not everything in the Bible has been confirmed as being true. Is there supporting evidence for the Elissar/Jezebel stuff?

3815:

in particular the writings of 19th-20thC anti-Semites (and then responses of anti-anti-Semites!) who used Roman comments on Carthage to set up an Aryan/Semite dichotomy in which Carthaginians came to epitomise alleged "Semitic" money-grubbing, deviousness, degeneracy etc in comparison to the upright Aryan Romans (read

3741:. Perhaps they did - perhaps it is even likely. Show me the historical evidence, or it is merely speculation. The editor speculates that "as only Greeks were habitually used as house-slaves", the Carthaginian population probably worked and dies in the fields. This is incorrect. While it is true that most 657:

real and scant evidence of this comes from the last desperate days of the Third Punic War. The Romans, in contrast, celebrated their victory over Hannibal, as I recall from Plutarch, by sacrificing twelve virgins; and of course Abraham stood ready to commit his foul deed had he been given divine sanction.

3323:

back in by people who had never heard of you, or me, or the edit war - becaue Knowledge is a reflection of the facts, the currently known interpretation of those facts, and the history of the interpretration of those facts - including ideas that were mistaken or exaggerated views (and included as such).

3027:. Remember people being in a frenzy while editing is wikipedia's greatest flaw. Id like to ask other more respectible users here to partake in this articles future editions to make it a clean and to the point page about carthage much like the Roman article. Simply put this page is way to long, thanks. 4323:

What did the Carthaginians actually look like? Were they African in appearance like the Numidians, Middle-Eastern like the Phoenicians? Or more reminiscint of Spaniards of Iberia? I've found little information on the subject on the internet and my local library is lucky to have a copy of the works of

4284:

Furthermore, there are other references to "trade caravans" sent to Persia, etc., as well as trade with Scandinavia and the Canaries. Any historical documentation? Any archaeological evidence? As far as I've read, there is no solid evidence of even trade with Britain, just a possibility of trade.

4173:

is a city on the outskirts of Tunis, Tunisia. In ancient times it was used to refer to the city as well as the civilization which developed, etc." Or words to that affect? Yes, everyone coming to this page is interested in the historic vice the modern city, but all the same the area is still called

3876:

Where the article should bring this up is another matter. Arabic names for Carthage are largely in the article, I suspect, due to the efforts of editors wishing to make ethnic or nationalist claims to it — or at least to blunt its association with Classical Antiquity (identified with Rome and Europe,

3729:

Some account of Scipio's "kill everything that moves" motive. It is undeniable that he starved most of the population to death, then sacked and burnt the city to the ground, and enslaved some 50,000. He was not a nice guy. However - I'd like to see some historical mention that he decided to "go in an

3543:

Someone really needs to chill out. Ive seen the talk pages all of them, and I understand now where this confederate of historical cynasisim comes from. Apearnetly it started with a cry for help from one of the members here then spread quickly rallying his cohorts to this page and in onther instance a

3404:

Its rather pathetic Richard that you should choose to act as childish as Vedexent, its pretty clear both of you are on the same boat (I wouldent be suprised if you were simply say.. his sock puppet...). Its also apparent that I have become a "Threat" to this Graco-Roman Group in this article (lol) as

3337:

So, have a blast, edit away, distort the entries away from thousands of years of writing. Have fun with historical revisionism. You will fail - and I don't have to do a damn thing. You'll be defeated by the open nature of Knowledge, people's desire to keep improving and tinkering with things, and two

3322:

The historical publishing and evidence is out there. You and I could both get hit by buses tomorrow and never come back to Knowledge, so that neither of us could ever edit again, and you know what would happen? The topics of "child sacrifice" and the alternate names of the "Sea Gate" would get added

3311:

I would like to turn your attention to this little quote I got from scrumging through my messages. It seems this has gotten out of hand (lol) for a few users or maybe just one. The Moral of this story (the one below) is people please guard your IP's adresses and be carefull when filling things out on

3230:

That is perfectly true - that one did treat it in more than one line. And yes, you've mentioned others over the past as well (I went back and looked at the archives myself just now). However, neither my talk page, nor the discussion archives, get read by many of the people who read (or even edit) the

3158:

I have, as it happens, already provided a source for the "no sacrifices" position, from Ribichini. However, even he does not deny it outright. He falls back on the line that it was a rare event, taking the view that most of the burials were of infants who died of natural causes. I have a copy of this

2797:

users is almost impossible - which is why they can break Knowledge's rules left right and center and there isn't a whole lot that can be done, except exclude anonymous edits through semi-protection. That was what was done last time, which is why "Marduk and friends" have claimed "17 regular accounts"

2619:

I've talked to an admin, and the advice seems to be that we pretty much just follow the guidelines, wait for Marduk and friends to violate the rules, and then the admins can take action: Probably semi-protection of the article to protect it against anon edits and blocking of accounts that violate the

2556:

Once I have finished with work i'll be converting this page completly and then shielding it from the anti-carthaginian baised that has devolped here. First I have already gotten a pro response from the AD's about my idea. In other words iam going to settle this by converting this article into a short

2203:

Older versions of this article transcribed the Phoenician name of Carthage using Aramaic (more commonly thought of as Hebrew) and Arabic lettering. If I ever knew for certain I've forgotten, but I suspect that the Aramaic transcription was added first. I also suspect that this was not done because of

2077:

In the middle ages some cities of 200,000 were the largest in the wordld. Between the fall of the persian empire and the rise of the great hellenistic cities of Alexandria, Antioch and Seleucia. Carthage could have been the largest city in the world. It probably was the largest city in the history of

2000:

sources. Additionally, few web sites work under any form of "editorial control" other than the whim of their webmaster. Obviously this doesn't hold true when web sites are mirroring published articles: published articles are more rigorous about their sources, and journals exercise editorial control.

1756:

It also doesn't show nearly all of the possessions in Iberia and I believe that it controlled more of the North African coast than just the various Phoenician colonial cities and modern-day Tunisia. Some identification of some of the other Phoenician cities should be included, too (e.g. Hippo, Utica,

1581:

Having said all that, I will add that Anonymus here is throwing up pieces of a potentially sound contribution. The many peoples of antiquity who practiced human or child sacrifice, under circumstances regular or exceptional, are as likely to have done so because they considered it the right, best, or

1448:

Since this section seems to have been contentious, I think I'd better submit a suggestion before editing again. I think we should delete altogether the "arguments against child sacrifice" section. The arguments presented there are already rehearsed in the earlier sections, so it's sheer repetition. I

1352:

has written. BTW, it's a lot more fun reading his postings when he's not going head-to-head with Marduk. While I do think there is more credibility to the "child sacrifice" charge than just Greco-Roman blood libel, at the end of the day, we are not supposed to decide the question, just document it.

1169:. If you want to see Carthage acting in a short-sighted, bumbling way, just look how their handling of the mercenary companies at the end of the First Punic War which sparked off the internal revolt of the Mercenary War. Hello? Don't let your politicians piss off forign armies within your own borders! 1064:

Marduk is right. Carthage was far superior to the Classical peoples. Rome's treatment of Carthage for doing nothing more than existing illustrates this. And Greece was like our if-it-feels-good-do-it society of today, built largely upon the backs of slaves. Most of what Greece supposedly accomplished

656:

Actually not, a book on archeology dispelled this view, stating the forensic evidence discounted it. Rather, this myth became embellished and is the function of the victor's history regarding those it committed genocide to, as is the Black Legend of the Aztecs. The aforementioned work says the only

573:

there are a lot of details about the child sacrifice ritual that have started to tickle the skeptic in me. If, as the article says, "there is no large body of Phoenician writing that has come down to us" then how do we know these details? Did Plutarch provide all these details? Or one of the other

4134:

Dingo welcome to wikipedia. Marduk of Babylon's edits was the change that this article needed I agree, before it was a mess even tho its changed now it hasn’t really gotten any better. There are still POV members lurking around. POV is what we call Biased people and we may as well call them filth as

4099:

Sorry If I seemed to imply that there are Biased (POV) members here but seeing as there seems to have been a lot of edit wars here I would think there are two groups one "pro" and onther "anti" again sorry if i insult anyone. Well first off I made a few addittions to a few other articles already and

3850:

Granted, The cite of ancient Carthage is now in an arabic speaking country. However, the article specifically says that carthage lost its importance when the arabs attacked it, and it was outshadowed by Tunis. So why is the arabic name of the city in the first sentance of the article? Is that really

3018:

Its funny, Marduk the user vendexent is parnoid of is the only one who made major contrabutions to this page and is the sole reason for raising it out of the trash heap tho there is still alot of work to be done and it will be done. However Vendexent has done nothing (As I have simply noticed) other

2887:

Its almost amusing to see the circus of friends Veny and his either "Consorts" or sock puppets and how they are always able to distrupt this article's edits and the arguments here with blind accusations and rather funny rambling between themselves if they are indeed not the same person. Non the less

2437:

As I said last time, I do not like the idea of forcing people out of the editing process - Knowledge thrives only because of public contributions and debate. However, "Marduk" has, I believe, used his/her anonimity to bypass the possibility of censure when he/she violates wikipedia policy and rules.

2398:

I agree completely. One of the things that has always bothered me about the article was the weight given to the various wars — especially since several of them have articles of their own. But that did reflect a long-standing typical attitude which viewed Carthage as essentially only worth mentioning

2090:

I think there's actually quite a lot of evidence to suggest that cities in the ancient world weren't nearly as large as is often suggested, and that figures given (e.g. 400,000 to Athens or 700,000 to Carthage actually refer to the city AND its hinterland (in Carthage's case the immediately adjacent

1483:

I had not looked at the text of this section in weeks and I was dismayed to find that the section was actually quite a mess. I have reorganized the section a bit and removed the redundancy that you pointed out but more work needs to be done. If you wish to do improve the section further, please go

1271:

and let the reader decide. Vilifying the Carthaginians (as many Roman historicans did) is wrong. Building up a Utopian image of Carthage is wrong. Laying out the views of the Classical historians, explaining why their viewpoints may be the way they are, providing the supporting evidence for both the

535:

Expanding on what Bridesmill and Vedexent have said, I am currently partnered with a Mexican expert on the Aztec empire. He writes as best as he can in broken English. I and other editors "clean up" behind him. You are welcome to write what you can as best as you can and those of us who have this

518:

There used to be a section of the Roman occupation of the site. It was deliberatly removed by "Marduk of Babylon". As Brudesmill said, you can always drop chunks of text here - or even rough drafts into the article itself. Trust me - people will edit and polish if they don't like the way it reads. -

92:

The first sentence contains the following statement: "written without vowels as QRT HDŠT." Now, while this is obviously an accurate extraction from the previous section which calls Carthage Qart-Hadasht, I'm curious whether or not it's pointed out for any reason. Is this just a quaint observation? R

4123:

may have resulted in a more balanced article, because it forced many people on all sides of a given issue to "stick to what you can prove" - which did help smooth out the article's previous anti-Carthaginian bias - but saying that Marduck's edits were a good thing is akin to saying that the nuclear

3870:

lists a Qartaj as the 94th largest city in Tunisia, with a population of 17000 — though without a date or source. The same site also provides information about Carthage (site of ruins), including an alternate name of Qartajannah. The coordinates don't quite match... I don't have any good sources or

3814:

It is well-established that the Romans thought of the Carthaginians as treacherous (hence the derogatory term "Punic faith"). The rest of the description is rather journalistic, but not entirely false. The big difficulty here is distinguishing what the Romans actually sais from later glosses on it,

3616:

There are texts vendexent :). Most come from records by carthaginian trade records, excavation of pottery notes, phoenician accounts of there colony, stories and myths passed down to native people of north africa (Berbers) which themselves have sources and written records, and the abundant writings

2273:

Marduck (or someone who is channeling Marduck's spirit :p ), I don't plan on debating them this time; nor do I think anyone else should waste their time doing so. We firmly thrashed out the rules of Knowledge, the conventions regarding sources, balance, NPOV, and citations 101 ways from Sunday last

2247:

I would draw your attention to the edits, and the attitude displayed in the edit comments, by a recent anon editor. What do people think - does it look like "Marduk" is back? (If it walks like a Marduck, and it squawks like a Marduck....) Is it time to put the page under partial protection again? -

2223:

Anyway, the other thing I thought needed explaining was the masking of the etymology of carbuncle. I can't find any sources for a derivation of carbuncle < Carthage, and while there are other assertions in the article now which I find dubious, this is one I feel especially confident in doubting.

1535:

Although it seems impossible for the modern mind to accept we must remember that the people of ancient times were not aware that not everything was influenced by the gods. So basically this was their way of making sure everything turned out peachy. So we shouldnt go thinking they are barbarians. if

1249:

evidence. The article should not say "Carthage sacrificed babies!" and it should not say "Carthage did not sacrifice babies!", and the issue of child sacrifice has been part of the view of Carthage for 1000s of years, so to not mention it is revising "the history of the history". The article should

1028:

the Knowledge rules and conventions, rather than just shouting them down. I would recommend you read and understand the guidelines that have been quoted at you repeatedly, and get aquainted with the conventions here in the meantime, if that is a road you want to pursue. Personalities aside, if your

986:

Just remember the Carthaginian's were the greatest people of the med sea, brining wealth,health and prosperity to all the known lands of that region, the exception of the Greeks who's population was almost certainty creating from Raping children and the Romans who elect Animals as there leaders (in

897:

The practice of live sacrifice to ensure the survival of bridges is not all that distant in our own past (Opie, Iona and Peter. The Oxford Dictionary of Nursery Rhymes. 1951. p 275). Having said that, as I understand it, the archeological confirmation of child sacrifice is quite weak. Yes, there

349:

That seems the only appropriate tack in general. From personal recollection only at this point, there is evidence for the historicity of the "Elissar" personage and for her relatives in the royalty of Tyre, the "metropolis" of Carthage. What role she personally played in the founding of Carthage is

239:

Yes, this is precisely my point about Dido. I was pretty sure she was legendary like Romulus and Remus. But the English version of the article doesn't make it sound like that. If a reader knew nothing about Carthage or the Aeneid, that reader might infer from the article that she and Elissar had

97:

It's because the caananite/hebrew/phonecian, and by extention, punic alphabet, has no vowels. Neither does egyptian for that matter. For this reason, transliterations of anything in these alphabets is always done without vowels in that transliteration system, since we can't be sure precicely how it

4138:

You have already met a few of them, there’s also onther thing we like to call "CYNICYSIM" it’s a common trait among western biased driven maniacs and it’s closely related to Bias. To give you an example Vedexent here likes to prance around pretending to be the flowergirl of the article lol. But if

3360:

hee hee, thank you for that, Kara Umi. I agree wholeheartedly with everything Vedexent said. However, it's too bad that he wasted all that time writing it. I've counseled him "not to feed the trolls" but he just can't restrain himself. Oops, I guess I'm doing it myself now. Oh well, I guess I

3326:

You can edit all you like. You can distort all you like. You can fight desperatly to try and erase the fact that for two thousand years Carthage was known (and is still known in some academic circles) as murderers of children. You can try desperatly to erase any mention of the marks that Tunis and

2597:

Don't you (and your 17 members who most likely share the same IP) have anywhere else to act like a teenage punk? You don't own the article, and don't come in here and talk about misfit editors who actually contribute and follow rules. What do you mean it needs a skim through? Isn't knowledge great

2353:

It seems like the article concentrates overly on the military interactions of Carthage with other nations, and then only in the struggles against Carthage itself. While it is undeniable that Carthage came into conflict with other nations, most of Carthage's influence was economic and trade based -

2211:

Later someone noticed the apparently Hebrew lettering and decided to provide equal representation to Arabic. This had the unfortunate effect of increasing the likelihood that a casual reader would interpret the Hebrew (and Arabic) lettering as more or less direct representations of the Phoenician.

2109:

Iam going to begin an entire clean up first by reg an account and within a weeks time ill be clearing the filth that has collected here. Most notably the the sacrafice myth or legend second as I see it a page about Roman And greek views of Carthage... well that about does it for me. Hopefuly I can

1595:

is something people have used to demean or exclude other people, rather than that any particular group or groups are or were barbarians in any absolute sense. Ideally an article like this lays out facts (with sources) and if a reader is looking for a way to determine who qualifies as barbaric, she

1071:

Why are people even asserting that the Carthaginians practiced child sacrifice? That's just Rome's way of explaining away their horrible mistreatment of an innocent people. I HAVE to take care of that. And that does not even make sense. Where do you think the Carthaginians came from? Did any other

976:

A dark day for history and knowledge, I cant belive I was wrong about this site as a central for information. All those stern critics of this begotten loathsome site. No wonder people are fed with this type of bull shit. What a sad collection of informants, Greek and Roman Apologists writing to us

849:

Hm, I don't know for how long they were "close allies", but I'm pretty sure that the Hebrew (Judaist) identity has been based on the Jews' distancing themselves from their West Semitic "idolatrous" neighbours and relatives. That was necessary exactly because the proximity and the influence were so

366:

Again a bold face claim to historical accuracy: We dont know if Queen Dido Existed, Queen Dido of Phoencian Capital (Lebanon) and voaged to North Africa were she settled Carthage. We dont know if its a Legend so then we dont know if its true. She seems to have existed wether the Roman Fake version

275:

Hmmm, not so sure about Dido - quite well documented - only the fuzzy line between history and legend remains, & IMHO it's on the legend side of the equation, but still germane to how Carthage fits in global context. This Postinus/Postinius individual is the one who has me curious - other than

4000:

Hi everyone, Iam pretty much new to wiki (just finished reading some of the rules) and also a history buff. The Punic wars being my most favorite of subjects this is the first article I would like to start on. First It seems like there has already been two edit wars here. I have alot of ideas and

3907:

page, including the archive. But that won't directly answer your question about the major point of conflict because I don't think it's ever been addressed directly. In general, most people with an interest in the subject have some very strong feelings about Carthage, and some editors have allowed

3832:

Ok - that makes more sense. As you say - it wasn't so much the facts of the edits I was objecting to it was the "journalistic slant" and "attribution of attitude" that I was questioning - which is why I pointed out the objections and gave the author a chance to rebut/edit - whatever. Someone else

3790:

In any case I jus saw the edit and I agree it doesen't need to stay. I doubt the Romans where racist. I mean towards who? The Phoenicians and Berbers who made up Carthage? Well for one thing they both look almost the same, they both have been in close contact and trading worthwhile for some time.

3631:

Before I try to fix the wrong etymologies for English "Punic" in the article "Carthage" a third time, only to see my changes reversed in a day or two, I guess I should briefly point out that I have been teaching Latin and Greek at the college level for more than 15 years. I know what I am talking

3330:

The futility of your actions will have nothing to do with me. I'm not debating you in Talk pages; I'm not touching your edits - I won't have to. Unless you and you "friends" plan to stand over your edits and guard them for the rest of time, you will fail. Why? Because someome will come along, and

3318:

You want to try and ask around, see if the general consensus is whether I am damaging the page, or you are? :) You probably don't :) But in case you really are deluded enough to believe that people agree with you, check out Knowledge:Straw polls, have a read, and set it up in Talk:Carthage. Other

3071:

I wouldn't call your edits vandalism, just simple POV-pushing. The vast majority of modern, credible sources agree that child sacrifice _did_ take place in Carthage and the Phoenician world. If you think that this is "hotly debated in some circles", then provide a credible source to support this.

1353:

We can cant the writing in one direction or the other IF there is a clear majority consensus in the academic world (i.e. not all crank theories are required to be given equal weight). If there is serious debate in scholarly circles, then we should definitely seek "safe haven" in adopting a NPOV.

1117:

Personally, I think trying to say "Civilization A" is better than "Civilization B" is silly. Saying that "Carthage is better than Rome" is just as bigoted as saying "Rome is better than Carthage". "Marduk's" "parting" statement (yes, the quotes mean that I'm suspicious that the new anon poster is

1075:

This is bullshit! And has anyone actually seen the pseudo-article on Tyre? They were more accomplished than Athens, Sparta, Syracuse, etc., and we dedicate an astounding two and a half pages to them! History textbooks write more about McCarthyism, whatever the hell that is! Do we even have a page

879:

Yes you are correct, but the Hebrews really had to have nearby allies like any other kingdom of their size. According to the ancient record they were one of the primary contributors to a coalition against the assyrians that included many of the neighbors that they so criticized. This is a common

4114:

I think you need to look at the edit history closer. "Marduk of Babylon" replaced one set of biases with an opposite, but no less slanted, version of the article, and then showed the temper of a three year old when someone tried to insist that they either temper their slant, or that they provide

3803:

No I just think vendexent is attempting onther cynical drive against historical carthage info. The editor however seems to have a silly sense of humor. This line right here nearly killed me lol "allegedly treacherous, money-grubbing and degenerate Middle Easterners undermining the moral fibre of

2404:

As things stand, we have several historical sections (Founding, Roman, Today) and the section on conflicts might properly be another in that series. The Founding section concerns Carthage as a Phoenician Colony, the Roman section touches on Carthage as the center of a Roman province. In between,

1860:

A few observations: 1) The intro paragraph is pretty heavy compared to e.g. the German and Norwegian ones. I think it would be better to start describing the city before the empire. 2) The part about Dido is somewhat confusing. First, it is not clear if Dido or Elissa(r) is the most common name.

1477:

I'm not sure because we never actually voted but I think the consensus is that we don't know for sure if child sacrifice occurred in Carthage although there is strong evidence suggesting that it did occur. However, two editors disagreed and believed that the evidence ran against child sacrifice

1079:

I wish the Phoenicians could have built a great empire as did Rome, so then you could at least acknowledge their greatness. Phoenicia was responsible for disseminating the arts of civilization to then Neolithic Europe, inspiring the Classical world, and inventing the concept of modern industrial

3306:

We have all seen books about Rome that paint Carthage in a negative light while not even looking at the cause in the first place,an attack on Carthaginian forces by the Romans. In this site they at least exercise some restraint, even if their sources, the only ones available, happen to be a bit

1712:

First of all, I think the expansions on Carthaginian and Phonecian trade and colonization are great additions to the article - thank you :) However, I think that there are some pretty broad claims being made here, which I don't doubt, but which need to be referenced. Can you provide sources for

832:

I don't think the Hebrews would have a reason to libel the phoenicans, for most of their shared history the Israelites were close allies of most of the Phoenician city states (especially Tyre) also the bible admits that the Hebrews' ancestors engaged in child sacrifice themselves, it was just a

494:

I'm an undergraduate classicist writing a report/paper on Roman Carthage. I've got plenty of sources/citations, so I can provide some information that the page is lacking (i.e. information about Carthage after the Punic Wars, things like the Antonine Baths, amphitheatre, naval port, &c). My

249:

There are lots of legendary people who may be based on real people but there is not necessarily a strong similarity between the legend and the real person. In these cases, we need to give the reader some indication that we are not talking about someone as clearly historical as Julius Caesar or

3115:

If the "The vast majority of modern, credible sources agree that child sacrifice _did_ take place in Carthage and the Phoenician world." then citing those sections should be a breeze for you. People who make these claims need to cite them. People who make counter-claims need to cite them. That

3924:

The best bet is not to worry about "whose toes am I stepping on", but to adhere to principles of good academic research and writing. I'm not sure it matters in there is someone ideologically offended by the idea that Cato the Elder was anti-Carthaginian (just an example), since we have direct

3248:

I might agree with you, and I might have noted and even read some of your "mentioned references". Neither may apply to someone coming to the article from "off the web". We're not writing for the people who participate in the talk page, we're writing for the genernal reading public, so claims,

3022:

Going through the pages history its what ive noticed iam putting this one in my watchlist, its to bad marduk left. One should also notice where the user vedexent has shown his true motives and reason for being here and that is an axe to grind against carthage as he is what we call Graco-Roman

2219:

But recently I noticed that the Aramaic transcription was back. And rather than wander down that road again, I just substituted the Phoenician itself, using the approved (but not yet published) Unicode standard. I know that means most people won't be able to see the lettering at all. I have a

139:

I wanted to ask about the "Dido" bit. Is this fact or mythology? I think the "Dido" bit is just something that Virgil made up for the Aeneid and is part of the "creation myth" for Carthage. If my inexpert opinion is true, then the "Dido" section should be moved to a separate section. Same

4280:

There has been no archaeological, nor solid historical evidence, of Carthaginian or Phoenician exploration of Madeira, nor the Canaries. Madeira, furthermore, was uninhabited and therefore no "trade exchanges" could occur. There is evidence from the Roman period the indicates exchange in the

3951:

version of Knowledge, that's the English terms - which tend to be the Latin and Greek terms only because the English speaking world got most of its knowledge through the Greco-Roman historians. Without that, I'm sure we'd have our own terms for the Carthaginian civilization, as we do for the

3019:

then complain, whine and make major reverts and major deletions to practical writings and then log into the discussion for a round of "You broke the rules, now listen to me cry" The simple truth to this article is vendexent you are ruining it please contribute or stop vandalizing its wrong.

327:

Yes, but - by saying 'according to xyz', to a lot of people that implies that we are citing a fact (e.g. 'According to Pasteur, bacteria can be described as...'); in the case of Dido I think that scientific consensus is on the side of 'hasn't been proven/not supported by credible physical or

3913:

The other editors involved seem neutral, or at least adopt appropriately neutral tones. But there have been some subtle anti-Carthage contributions, primarily in the Talk page. (The original versions of the article were heavily anti-Carthage, but that has been and continues to be remedied.)

2053:

Ships of tonnages in the 100 ton range were very common in the ancient meditarranean and in early modern europe. In fact, there are reports of ships with cargo capacity of 2,500 tons (the Siracusia grain ship build in syracuse in the 3th century BC) to 3,500 tons (the grain ship used to the

1601:

What's needed here (among other things) are references to work that has been done on ancient cultures and their use of different kinds of sacrifice, and on the general practice of assigning to others (especially rivals) the worst traits imaginable — or to articles which in turn include such

3580:

I hope editing wont end for this article, it seems things have gone silent for a while now. personaly I would like to see Marduk return he made a great deal of contrabution to this article in fact wa responsible for its tranformation if it just gets cleaned up a bit I think it can go for a

1065:

wasn't even created by the Greeks, it was created by the Phoenicians and ripped off from them, then ripped off from Greece by the Romans. Greece was constantly ripping shit off from other peoples, just like the Arab empires would. They even tried to clame that they invented Tyrian Purple.

602:

by the Romans - who hated and feared the Carthaginians enough to wipe them out - or it takes a minor or ancient (compared to he Carthaginians themselves) practice and exaggerates (this is possible - many neolithic cultures did it, and vestiges survived into Bronze and early Iron ages - see

188:

page here is just stuffed with a good bibliography, as well as links to many good etexts, including both classical and more modern literary treatments of the Dido legend. At least a place to start digging. I think the "historical fact" of Dido is a slippery as that of Romulus. The origin

2105:

WoW that took a good long time, the amount of garbage and Anti-Carthaginian Prancing going on around here makes this place reak of filth. Reading this whole thing just made me realize how sad and disturbing the time people can go to in order to ruin knowledge and information of others.

328:

documentary evidence' although a grain of truth arguably exists; I would prefer citing it as 'Legend recorded in the writings of xyz' or some such. I think to be honest, we have to state where things are hard facts and where some fuzziness exists and where there's more fuzzy than form.

4274:"Irregular trade exchanges occurred as far west as Madeira and the Canary Islands, and as far south as southern Africa. Carthage also traded with India by traveling through the Red Sea and the perhaps-mythical lands of Ophir (India/Arabia?) and Punt, which may be present-day Somalia." 437:

This article needs to mention the campaign of Rome against Carthage and its lesson for History and Economics classes--you know, the whole Cartago Delenda Est stuff...? Maybe a mention of spreading salt over the fields upon being raized? Even the destruction of the city? Mention

1182:

is no better. Claiming that Carthage did everything good, that the Greeks were really no more than child-molesting sodamites, and that Rome was nothing more than a pack of bloodthirsty idiots who elected a horse (actually it was Caligula that either appointed his Horse a Senator,

941:

Well, sort of. I got messed up trying to cut and paste just the Human Sacrifice discussion to the new archive so I decided to just copy the whole Talk:Carthage page there. When I have time, I will slowly delete any stuff that isn't related to Human Sacrifice out of that page.

226:

Not the foggiest - translated from the NL wiki - the NO wiki doesnt mention this source. It may be 'Postinius'; but he doesn't come up too much either. I'll have a look on ebscohost when I get back to the office. Myth/history - not just the bronze age suffering from that one ;-)

4103:

Ok just got through the history I got the page as it was before the edit wars. It seems Marduk of babylon was responsible for the pages current form, which is pretty good its better than the last one it would be nice if would make more adittions. And also everyone else's to :)

2215:

After the Child Sacrifice Revolution, I took out both the Aramaic and the Arabic lettering, replaced them with the most immediate Latin descendents of the Phoenician letters in question, and added an IPA transcription — mostly so no one would wonder about the lack of vowels.

3892:

Ok, I'm editing this to ask two small questions. I gather that there is some partisan bickering on this page. If I try to add anything, I want to not step on any toes. Can someone sum up the major point of conflict so that I don't blindly rush in and irritate people? Thanks

4100:

should like to start here on the Punic War section of the carthage article. Again iam sorry if for any speculation on my part. But seeing as again there isent an agreement on the article yet I would say yes "I hope I can bring a neutral point to this article, thanks." ^^

1602:

references. That would let editors and readers compare a phenomenon of Carthaginian child sacrifice in both the context of wider practice (where it may not stand out as unusual) and of Carthage's rivalry with Greece and Rome (where it may not be so immediately credible).

4169:...both the ancient city and the civilization. True, but there is still to this day a city called Carthage. I'm loath to change an intro on a topic that so many people work on, but since the city is still officially called Carthage, shouldn't it read something like: " 3761:

What the editor seems to have missed is that at this temporal distance, we can't address the motives and attitudes behind actions, unless they are specifically recorded. Many times they are specifically mentioned by the historians of the time. Many times they are not,

1404:

I think Richard's suggestion entirely sensible, and would advocate cutting all the material from the end the initial section on child sacrifice to the end of the whole section on religion, since it is elsewhere; doing a slight rephrasing; and adding a header of the

464:. The famous salting doesn't seem to be mentioned until relatively recently, and much other evidence makes it unlikely. So it should be mentioned along with all the things for which Carthage is famous, while making it clear which are historical and which are not. -- 2798:- semi-protection wouldn't affect those. However, I don't think they've realized that if they break the rules using registered accounts, they'll lose them. Being non-anonymous means there are very real consequences for breaking the rules. We'll just wait and see. 987:

this case a horse) submit to Vile and Disgusting Disturbing Orgy's with 7 year old boys and founded there city on Rape and Murder. Iam just so happy and overwhelmed with joy that these two group of people have come to this reunion for onther round with Carthage.

1742:

The map is very helpful, but would benefit from some explication. To which period does it apply? Clearly it is not at the height of Carthaginian power - to take just one example, between the Greek and Roman periods, Carthage held unchallenged sway over Sicily..

1668:

Originally, the preferred ports of sale were in the eastern Mediterranean, where they brought the goods from Africa, Iberia, the British Isles, and Scandinavia and those they manufactured; shift to western ports because of Carthaginian conflicts with Greece ove

1471:

Thanks for showing restraint. This section has been the subject of contentious debate. I think we were all so exhausted by the debate that once it was resolved via semi-protection, we all just moved on to other stuff and figured we were happy with the current

577:

Once again, I'm not going to pull a "Marduk" and insist that these details be excised from the article. However, I'm curious what the source of all these details is. When I figure out how, I'm going to insert a bunch of "citation needed" tags in this section.

1658:

Highly advanced agriculture; Mago's writing about said agriculture; export of wine, grapes, fruits, nuts, and olive oil and evidence of some trade in marijuana from shipwrecks recently found; how this significantly restored their economy after the Second Punic

3946:

As for the name: I don't object to the inclusion of the Arabic name here. However you might have a point. The only important terms are those of the Carthaginians themselves, and those used by the general reading public for the article. In this case, being the

2399:

because of its conflicts with Greeks and Romans, often condensed into the image of Hannibal's elephants. And I've been correspondingly pleased with the recent additions which explore Punic culture, both in itself and in its relationship to its contemporaries.

2499:

I was thinking about putting in some kind of section or subsection about other civilizations' opinions on the Carthaginians. This could be something that might raise point of view questions and I was just wondering what everyone else thought about the idea.

880:

trend in history, where a King makes practical alliances with another culture that may be looked down upon as inferior. Tyre was probably almost always the closest allies to the Israelites, soppoedly the king of Tyre helped Soloman build the first temple.-

862:"fire-worshippers", in both cases by ascribing them all kinds of immorality and crimes, in a direct ratio to genetic and cultural proximity. Compare also Christian attitude towards Jews and Greek pagans (i.e. the ancestral religious groups) in the article 1991:

I would disagree that it is "just as credible as any other source of information" in all cases. Web sites, as a rule (and there are many exceptions to this rule), do not make good references. Typically they are un-referenced: we don't know what sources

1080:

society, yet nobody pretends they did any of these, or anything at all. The man that destroyed Carthage is praised in the Italian national anthem, and Carthage is praised on a few select webpages. That disturbs me and it should disturb everyone else.

3581:

nomination. Other then that I hope he does put all that knowledge and passion for Carthage to good use wther in wikipedia or in real world studies. Kara Umi hasent replyed back or made the contrabution he said he would myabe will just have to wait??

1033:, your viewpoints can be blended into the article - perhaps creating a point/counterpoint structure discussing the controversy over some points. In short, you need not "pack up and go home", but you are now restricted to working wihin the system and 3804:

allegedly honest, robust and vigorous Italians"... I think I'll begin right away on it. I dont have much time on the computer as I used to so this is all that i can do for now my promise of reforming will have to wait a whole lot longer I suppose.

1536:

you lived in ancient times think what you would do? would you let your crops and empire die or would you take the only other opportunity and try something new and innovative? Also most of most of the people didnt want their child to be sacrificed.

3721:

Some account of the siege from Carthaginian perspective? I have never seen the story of "a small fraction of the population hiding in the citadel, trying hard to surrender". I'm not saying it doesn't exist - just that I'd like to see some sort of

1639:

How they maintained a monopoly on tin and how this was extremely lucrative due to its usage in the production of bronze; their obtaining secretly the tin from the British Isles and the way they prevented other nations from doing the same by naval

495:

concern is that, being new here, I am not well able to write the additions. Can someone work with me? I've read the Wiki-help articles on how to write on Knowledge, but honestly, I'm not comfortable trying to tackle something this big on my own.

926:

There are two approaches to archiving Talk pages. You can archive chronologically or you can archive topically. Archiving chronologically is easiest but it's hard to find stuff because everything is a jumble based on who said what and when.

293:

Agreed, a discussion of Dido is as valid to place in the Carthage article as a discussion of Romulus and Remus are in an article on Rome. However, is there any need to classify her in the article as one or the other? Rather than saying "Dido

2008:, the cursory examination I gave the site turned up examples of both kinds of articles. The referenced and "vetted" articles might make acceptable references, but I don't think the rest of the articles are valid sources for this article. - 3865:

I agree, the Arabic name for Carthage is of no special significance, except as the contemporary, local name of the place. I'm presently confused about that. The article refers to Carthage as a residential suburb — I presume of Tunis. And

1972:

Good observation. I will fix that and cite the actual authors (I didn't notice that). Apart from this, it is a fine resource and it is just as credible as any other source of information. Nobody has made any real argument against it. -

1288:

intention of an objective article. Marduk decried the "anti-Carthage propaganda" and tried to replace it not with a neutral and balanced view but with "Pro-Carthage, anti-Roman, anti-Greek, and anti-anyone-who-doesn't-agree-with-Marduk

93:

ds t br sm rlvnc t smthng? Mn, lthgh t s knd f fn t wrt lk ths, 'm wndrng f thr s pnt t t (Or does it bear some relevance to something? I mean, although it is kind of fun to write like this, I'm wondering if there is a point to it).

2567:

Last time I checked the rule book, no editor owned an article! I'll suggest you debate if you wish to make large-scale edits rather than posting threats to disrupt Knowledge. Creating 17 or whatever accounts will be exactly that.

1848:

Oh. I guess I din't think about the timeframe. But didn't Carthage also have some colonial cities on the Portuguese coast? I remember something about them rebelling during one of the Punic Wars and aligning themselves with Rome.

3679:

A recent anonymous edit has expanded the fall of Carthage section. For the most part, it adheres to the course of events. However, its tone is highly slanted (evil racist Romans slaughtering peaceful, egalitarian Carhaginians).

1250:

say "Historian X said Carthage sacrificed babies. Historian X was a Hottentot. The Hottentots didn't like the Carthaginians, therefore X is probably biased. Here's the supporting evidence for X's viewpoint.... here's the

696:

Dig into some of those sources that Richard found, and even the debate on Phonecia.org that Marduk listed. There are alternate explanations as well. I don't know if the issue can be conclusively determined either wat. -

3881:

Arabic name, ideally the one used in Tunisia today. And then a review of other articles about ancient cities identified with contemporary ones should be our guide as to how to include this information in this article.

2682:

It is very possible the Marduk and friends have very good points and viewpoints to add to the article - and if they can do so within the bounds of the rules, and article balance, that's great. We'll see how it goes.

2529:

Given this, I'm not sure that a seperate section is required. Perhaps the section explaining the historical bias could be expanded, or mention added of particular opinions that are now discounted, or are in doubt? -

945:

However, it appears that something like 70% of the talk page was r0elated to the Marduk/Vedexent discussion of Human Sacrifice. This Talk Page sure is a lot shorter without that unpleasant series of exchanges.

1942:

reference or not (that issue has been discussed here before), the citations are incorrect in many cases. Often, the links lead to "mirrors" of works by other writers and scholars. The citations should be for the

3777:

I hope the editor can provide some sort of backing for these points within the next week or so. If not, I will most likely take out the aspects that cannot be historically substantiated one way or another. -

3749:

other household slave roles, and thus many possible non-Greek house slaves. I don't think we have any historical "slave demographics" though, so this is most likely just something we can't say one way or the

3522:

Of cource, I think it should be well interesting enough to "mention" :). In any case Iam way head of you I havent got to that point yet on my draft but with work easing a bit I should have it in there thanks

4068:

It is true that there has been a lot of edit warring in this article in the past, particularly over the question of child sacrifice. I would hope that this will not occur wrt to anybody's edits. Let's be

3496:

I think it's worth mentioning but perhaps not separately. I should think it can be incorporated just as you suggest: as an addendum to the First Punic War. Just work it into the last part of that section.

2510:

I think that discussing the actual opinions is what we already do. We don't have (much) of the Carthaginian's views of themselves, because we have no historical primary written sources from Carthage - so

730:

I'd think this should be restored to the article. Based on references to it in scholarly papers, it seems to support the reality of child sacrifice, but someone should report on what it actually says.

2793:

They probably are all the same person. No, tracking IPs is moot - they're using account(s) with dynamically assigned IP addresses, so everytime they log in they could be using a different IP. Tracking

4011:

I just asked that question a few days ago. I was told not to worry about it. If you just cite all your additions you shouldn't have a problem, because deleting cited data is in particularly bad form.

1461:

normal. The evidence is strongly in favour of the reality of it in this case, and we should reflect that. Nevertheless, counter arguments are legitimate, but should not be presented repetitiously.

2907:

article. It makes some pretty strong claims for supporting the child sacrifice angle. Does anyone know where this comes from, and if it can be cited? If not, it should be taken back out again.

1315:

Anyhow, that's my take on the anon's post. It's not about building a "fair", or "unfair" portrayal, or comparing Culture A with Culture B to find out which is "better". It is about laying out

4046:

saying "I hope I can bring a neutral point to this article, thanks." This implies that there is not currently a "neutral point " in this article. As a member of "the other camp" along with

983:

Well have fun Butt Raping Carthage everyone, iam sure you would like to call all your Graco-Roman Historical Revenist now to join in the fun of perverting information. Good Luck and have Fun

1068:

The Phoenician and Punic peoples were (in my mind, together with those of China) far superior to the Classical Peoples, and there is no reason they cannot get the same degree of treatment.

3603:

primary sources survived (apart from inscriptions), and that there were no original Cathaginian texts left (I would count Greek and Latin translations quoted by Greco-Roman historians as

3350:

A copy and paste brought to you by me, its rather unfortunate but its clear now this user no longer has the right (or sanity) to continue to edit this page. Iam sorry you had to see that

2917:

Brown, Shelby. Late Carthaginian Child Sacrifice and Sacrificial Monuments in their Mediterranean Context (JSOT/ASOR Monograph Series, vol. 3; Sheffield: Sheffield Academic Press, 1991)

2208:

more readily available to publishers, and because there happens to be a very close correspondence between the letters in the two scripts, which reduces the ambiguity of a transcription.

4063:

and work hard to maintain an NPOV". This may sometimes mean writing that "Source A says that X is true whereas source B disputes the truth of X" rather than simply saying "X is true".

3903:

As is so often the case, while this may be a small question the answer is enormous. The best thing to do to get a sense of what might be irritating would be to read through the whole

743:

Yes, sigh... I think we tried to go back to a "good" copy of the article but there were so many edits back and forth, it is inevitable that something probably got lost along the way.

611:

did it). I think the emphasis on it is probably Roman and/or Greek propaganda. Still, it should get mentioned, IMHO, as long as the questionability of its truth is also explained. -

2470: 2428: 4215:, the "mother city" of Carthage. During this time, there were kings that ruled with most of the power behind them. In 480BCE, however, the kings began to lose thier power to the 2100: 374:

I think to talk with fascist people is impossible: do they need a cd-rom with Dido's original blog from 8th Century? May be we can discover it, one day, under Carthage ruins...

3683:

Not only does it attribute causes to actions which - as far as I know (and my knowledge of history is vastly imperfect) - cannot be supported by the historical record (i.e. it

4050:

and others, I think there's been quite an effort to maintain an NPOV stance in this article in the face of POV-pushing by Marduk and threatened something or other by Kara Umi.

2951:

add a reference (along with a snarky edit summary), but I don't think it is very authoratative. In fact, the only relevance it has to the entire section is a single sentence:

2220:

compliant font, and I can't see the letters when in Knowledge myself. (Some insufficient cooperation between my browser and style sheet, no doubt.) But someday, in theory...

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Don't bother discussing this. "They" have already been stupid enough to publically announce their plans. They can try to do it, and get their accounts banned from Knowledge.

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My browser normally has no problem with Hebrew text, but it can't show the recent edit which changed the Phoenecian text to Hebrew. Does anybody else have the same problem?

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I did but I don't see how it can cover it up. Either way, there's good enough reason to mention the various speculations (which is what the article did in the first place).

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is what KongminRegent is looking for. Can one of you write-up a request for a checkuser on Marduk, Takashi, Kara Umi and whoever else has been writing this stuff? Thanks.

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LOL- It also be nice to put alot of mention in the obliteration of those pesky iberian tribes, if the vote gotes well we can have all the mentions we want.--Signed Marduk

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I'm done reacting to you anywhere. Like I said, I don't have to - you can't win - it will just take time :) - Vedexent (talk • contribs • blog) 12:03, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

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Carthage was one of the largest city's in ancient times, with some 700,000 inhabitants, although it was not the second largest city in the world at any point in time. -

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LOL but really tho every member of wikipedia is a prized member and everyone makes there contributions just hope you turn out to be a Positive one not a negative, cya

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footnotes, and references have to be on the main page, or they might as well not exist as far as the article is concerned. Since you know about these sources, I would

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motive, btw). Something about Hannibal staring the Second Punic War (the first was just two major nations butting heads over a minor local conflict on Sicily that got

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For my own interest - do you have any information on who Postinus was? I did some Google'ing - but the best "hits" seem to be mirrors of the foreign language Wikis. -

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Is there any way to check the IPs of all these Marduks, Yan Yomi or whatever the new one is, etc.? I'm really hoping they're just the same annoying little prankster.

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I think it might be a good time for everyone to be familiar with some sections. Even if "Marduk" is just puff-posing, its always good to know the guidelines, right?

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or a "more balanced explanation of Carthage" that is more important, is up to you. That's my final word on the issue; I'm not contributing another 100k of debate. -

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Now someone just reverted the whole mess. *sigh* I still maintain that a single line from a single unreferenced website doesn't make a sufficient reference. There

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All the sites are referenced, and pretty much every written source other than reference works and journals are subject to the whims of their creators, as well. -

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I've begun a little cleanup, while also keeping an eye on the Norwegian version for more information. Unfortunately, I am not an expert on this particular topic.

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point you towards good sources, like published papers, books, etc. which are acceptable references. Marduk seemed to come from that part of the world, so Marduk

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create a registered user account. This would allow you to contribute to the article (after a suitable wait, and even in the waiting period you can contribute to

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Yes, I've done this (sort of). Mmmmm, I feel like I've just taken a long-delayed visit to the outhouse and unloaded a whole load of ____. That sure felt good.

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any misunderstanding about the way Phoenician was written. There's a scholarly convention of transcribing Phoenician text using Hebrew letters because they are

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However, I must protest the characterization of the Carthaginian society as "Great, Wise, and the fount of all goodness" (my quotes and phrase). Carthage was a

120:. I think the potential is there and therefore we should not get so wrapped up in the child sacrifice dispute that we stop improving the rest of the article. 3925:

quotations in the canon of historical documentation that he was. In other words, write within the bounds of documentable, supportable truth and you are fine.

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which means that Carthage spread a great deal of culture througout the mediterranean. Even in military actions, Carthage was not always an antagonist. In the

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The one I added in your talk page treats the matter in more than one line. I've cited sources in the past, and they're now lost somewhere in this Talk page.

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Dear Marduk, please can you tell us more about Berbers thinking of Dido? Are they still loyal to the Queen, after 2.800 years? Thank you very much. Mohamed

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This article on an English-language Knowledge is in serious need of Roman-alphabet transliterations for the Greek and Arabic names sprinkled throughout. —

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problem with Marduck ( "and" the anonymous poster above) is not that he or she wished to promote a more positive view of Carthage. It was his/her methods.

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urge you to add those referneces to the page in general, and specific footnoted citations for some of the contended points. I can't do it - I don't know

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Actually, except for direct archeological evidence (which is not as easily accessible or documented), we rely on historical writings, and we don't have

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You need to pick which version you want. Go to history, pick the date and time of the revision, and you can click on the date of the version you want.

1152:. So, we tend to write about the views Classical cultures had about Carthage, and then try and "root out" what are probably the propaganda distortions. 689:

4) Archeologists have found a cemetery full of children's remains and there is some claim that the nearby soil is full of a particular kind of charcoal

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Roman historians? If so, then we should say so by writing something like "according to Plutarch, the nobility raised servant children for sacrifice".

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Due to the subjugation of the civilization by the Romans at the end of the Third Punic War, very few Carthaginian historical primary sources survive.

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There's a very real possibility this is all "puff posing" to see if he/she/they/it can stir people up, which is why I'm not going to get too excited

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LOL, all of the sudden I feel pity for this article, "channeling Marduck's spirit" looks like someone is spending way to much time on the net LOL --

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I just made a few minor changes, most of them stylistic. But two of them seem most likely to raise an objection, so I thought I'd discuss them here.

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arguments are backed by evidence (published works), sources, footnotes, etc., and you can respect (even if you don't like) other points-of-views and

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No, I'm not challenging the truth of child sacrifice. That was Marduk's soapbox. However, as I re-read the sections on child sacrifice here and in

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If this Dido and Elissar stuff is not clearly fact, I propose that we move it to a section titled something like "Carthage in Classical Literature".

3191:. It has a single line (see above), which I thought insufficient to support the whole section, so I added the template back in to get people to add 2924:

of the refernces section. I don't know, I've never read the book, and hadn't even heard of it until this article. Anyone have any input on this? -

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have accessed material not easily found by the rest of us. I can't believe that African archeologists aren't researching Carthaginian civilization!

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common practice in the region back then, and from a pragmatic standpoint it helped reduce the strains of a large population during time of crisis.-

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p.s. I'm pretty sure this whole little letter will vanish off your talk page once you read it - musn't let other people see the truth after all ;)

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to be better supporting citations out there. Note I'm not saying the material is unsupportable or should be taken out - just that it needs to have

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What I want to know is: How do we know about details like lutes and drums drowning out the wailing of parents whose children were being sacrificed?

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similiar "Rallying Cry" was used to influence the vote ( a big no no ;) ) when a user tried to balance this article but was met with this group.

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Before I start making to more major type of edits, id like to ask here on this page for the pictures I asked for "marlin", thanks. "Soon to be"

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So, at the end of the day, we're not sure if the charge of child sacrifice is true or just blood libel on the part of the Hebrews and the Romans

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about, and I have the relevant dictionaries (the Oxford Latin Dictionary and Liddle and Scott's Greek-English Lexicon) at hand in my office.

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I think the article should stay as it is. The mercenary war is a clearly separate event and should be considered in its own right. After all,

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I understand how the wars get concentrated on: they are the best documented historical episodes - but that probably isn't balanced or fair. -

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For a start, you might list your areas of interest and outline the nature of your proposed edits here before making htem on the article page.

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I've encountered much of that in my reading. It would certainly make a welcomed addition to the article. let me encourage you to include it!

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source). Should this passage be amended, or are there existing Carthaginian primary texts? If so, I would very much like to find them! :) -

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viewpoints. Yep - it's valid to call for a citation for that - and I can point you, ironically, to a website that does just that. I did not

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in wealthy Roman homes were educated Greek slaves (Greek being the "language of the educated person" in the Greco-Roman world), there were

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Topically is a lot more work but it makes it easier to say "Interested in human sacrifice? Go look at the archive which has been saved to

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by travelers and wanderers from varios different places. But a cite? Haha well you wont find one on the net if you do please let me know.

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Middle eastern like the Phoenician’s of Tyre etc. Not only appearance but also culture as well in terms of architecture, clothing, etc..

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biased. The main thing that critics should be gald about is that wikipedia recognises that the punic wars first started because of Rome.

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article. It isn't enough that you know about a refernce, or mention it offhand in conversation on a talk page, you have to add it to the

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several wikis and several very obscure ghits, I can find nothing - hence will do some digging in meatspace & academic search engines.

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Is there really all that much garbage and anti-carthaginian prancing? There was some before, but I think that's been cleaned up by now.

4223:, attempted a military coup c.308BCE to restore all power to the king. He was captured and crucified. The Empire was abolished and the 4158: 4124:

bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were good things because they taught us that its pretty horrible to use nuclear weapons on people. -

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seperately, or is the history getting too long? It is an interesting event (at least I think so), but it is kind of an addendum to the

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Welcome. You can always dump chunks of stuff here, or just post the references & outline of what you feel would help on the page.

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A map showing the topography of the northeastern coast of Africa (the area around Carthag), as well as the cities of Tunis, Carthage,

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is the non-judgemental, and non-agenda-based way to do it (and face it, I did not, and I don't think many people did think Marduk had

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Sorry, I'm new to the contribution end of Knowledge, so the functions & forms are foreign to me. I've also not been able to read

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agreed that Caligula was a raving lunatic), is no less reprehensible than the "biased and unfair" comments that Marduk objected to.

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Do I put the sources at the bottom of the page or as inline citations? I am kind of new here and I don't really know that stuff.

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Received a response - Postinus was inerted into the NL wiki by an anon user who to date has not provided a source, unfortunately.

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book, but it's not online, so I can only refer you to this, very perceptive I think, discussion of the context for this debate.

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construction of the lighthouse of the portus) in graeco-roman times. Ships with cargo capacity of 100 tons were average ships.--

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than that - and this note - I'm done with you, because I think you do this for the attention, so I'm done feeding the troll :)

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Marduk trying to be nicer and playing "by the rules" - which they should be given credit for if this is the case). Part of the

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Iam very proud of vendexent he's finaly managed to find something worthwhile and not onther Roman flower throwing agenda. :)

3110:. So, ironically, I got caught out trying to incorporate a badly edited blurb of text by "Marduk and friends". God is an Iron. 3031: 2941: 1582:

only thing to do under those circumstances as a contemporary person is likely to do something similarly momentous. (So-called

3695:, which probably should be included (escalating Roman demands, the taking of hostages, all arms and armor from the city, and 1852: 1615: 1267:

That's really what a good wikipedia article should do: lay out all the veiwpoints, and the evidence and counter-evidence for

4257:. The government edured until the destruction of Carthage in 146BCE and the annexation of Carthage as the Roman province of 3224: 3152: 3076: 2899:

Perfectly reasonable objections about the lack of citation in this section have been raised. I checked, and this section is

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being practiced in Carthage. Thus, the consensus is that we should not come down definitively on either side of the issue.

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All ranting aside, this article should be written about Carthage, not about Classical viewpoints and opinions of Carthage.

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well its been the scourge of knowledge since the time people could throw bananas at each other and write about it lol ^^.

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going to be disruptive, let their own actions "place their neck in the noose" as far as the administrators are concerned.

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Nonetheless, even analyzing the range of dynamically assigned IP addresses can shed light on what's going on. I believe

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hold even if it a university page. True a professor of classics has more cedibility than my plumber - but still people,

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Don't blame the Greco-Romans for getting Phoenicians extinct. They were in modern terms "not tough enough for the job".

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Discussion about points, sources, balancing ideas, etc., is valid, but I think we need to take "the high ground" here.

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Can you put the reference back and let's hope that somebody who has read the book can document what was valuable in it.

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for the article. If you're going to put something unflattering about the Carthaginians into the article, you'd better

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So, rather than get into another endless and pointless debate, or "tug of war" over the page, I've added an entry in

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And in fact the English text framing the transcriptions was subsequently modified to amplify this misleading message.

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these? Like I said, I don't doubt that the included information is factual, just that it should also be referenced. -

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I believe that "Marduk" is free to edit this page, so long as he/she is held to the same rules as everyone else, and

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Punic writings that don't exist either as building or monument inscriptions or in translations of Classical cultures.

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motivations attributed to the Romans. Perhaps this is in other speeches by Cato? Perhaps this is in other documents?

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Did Plutarch and the other historians write that? If so, we can cite them. If not, those details are potentially

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page (silly of me not to have checked), and added a brief description at the end of the Carthage article. Thanks,

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Also I removed the ludicrous claim that "Child sacrifice was Roman propaganda" for the more than obvious reasons.

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Before making any edits regarding the alleged practice of child sacrifice, please read the archived discussion at

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The NO and NL articles both start with reference to Dido in the first para - "According to legend as passed on by

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Tacitus but that's about it as far as that era of history (I know Tacitus was much later, just meant in general)

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for a lot of this stuff). This 19thC construct then got turned back on the Romans as evidence of their "racism".

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or some cheap history textbook that has to lump everything together. By the same token, you could argue that the

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Either provide evidence of my vandalism (such as links to specific edits, with an explanation as to why they are

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the explanations, and letting the reader decide for themselves. That is being neither a "Greco-Roman apologist"

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In short, we write about the view of "Classical civilization's" view of Carthage, not because we think they are

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said he thought this article had the potential to be FA. Let's figure out what needs to be done to get there.

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I think the convention should be to have all new discussion here. From time to time, we can move stuff to the

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Anyway, any response by the author(s) of the material with which I have issue would be very much appreciated.

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That said, I think we should ask how much space should be given to child sacrifice in this article vs. in the

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As for phonecia.org. Websites are not, in themsevles, good references, and don't prove anything. But websites

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You are omitting the sacrifice of two Greeks and two Gauls during the Cimbrian invasion. (This is, of course,

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Somehow you never learned that just because you say something, that it is true, or that people believe you.

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do so, arguing or "brawling" with them is counter-productive, so there is no real point in engaging them in

167:" No further mention of her is made in those articles, but I think your class lit section has strong merit. 3674: 2671: 2195: 2050:

The claim that ships with carring capacity of 100 tons were not mached again in the 18th century is wrong.

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Why does everyone assume these posts of mine take great amounts of time and effort? I just type fast :) -

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article, and I've come across a "map need" about Carthage, and was wondering if anyone had any solutions?

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out of hand), invading Italy, rampaging around for 16 years, destroying a Roman army of some 90,000 (see

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Thanks for the info! I hadn't even considered the question until you mentioned it. Ironic that Carthage

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Famed horses of Carthage, which formed a significant export and were similiar to Arabian horses of today

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I do an example: if someone kills you and destroys all of your records on Earth, did you really exist?

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The article already touches on this fact, and explains that our historical view of Carthage is biased

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will find it. But it's not an editor's place to butt in and tell a reader how to interpret an article.

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The following paragraph was originally added in the article, as a section under this heading, between

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All that aside, I suppose the Classical and Hebrew human sacrifice propaganda has some truth to it. --

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well have it referenced and cited or he'll revert it ;) In the end, more citations = a good thing -

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ahead but be mindful of the discussion that has gone before. If you can stomach it, please read

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How they had ships capable of carrying 100 tons of goods (which was not matched until the 1800s)

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article. I'm happy to have most of the discussion of religion and child sacrifice moved to the

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Richo that was really nice, go pull onther marduk and develop some intellect and truthfulness.

1772:— which it lost at the end of the First Punic War — and this fits with the reduced holdings in 1523: 934:" So that's what I've done, I've created an archive for the human sacrifice discussion called 683:

2) According to the Romans, the Carthaginians (who were descended from Phoenicians) did it, too

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and the wars leading up to them, and also some of the specific battles, including the decisive

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Possibility of colonization in Australia and Brazil and evidence of ventures as far as Sumatra

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Its up to 115k! I'm not sure how you archive - and I'm just on my way out the door anyways...

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Previously I wondered what happened to Roman Carthage (). Recently, I found the info on the

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Any of you map creators or map experts have any ideas on how these might be found/created? -

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Carthaginians clearly practiced child sacrifice (ev. from burials in Carthage and Sardinia).

456:, perhaps not all in sufficient detail -- though there are separate articles on each of the 123:

Frankly, the article could be FA even if we left out mention of child sacrifice altogether.

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Is there a way i could see the old version of the page? if any could please help with this

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viewpoint. This is insane. I'm not trying to push a viewpoint. I'm trying to get people to

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article and thus there may need to be some regularizing performed between the two articles.

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edit war that way takes a lot less out of anyone, and it points out who is in the wrong a

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If a source can be provided for this etymology, no one would be more delighted than me. --

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Late Carthaginian Child Sacrifice and Sacrificial Monuments in their Mediterranean Context

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and in those cases it is not acceptable to substitute unsubstantiated speculation as fact

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2) Of course, that is because no significant Phoenician/Carthaginian documents are extant

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1) There is no written evidence from Phoenician/Carthaginian documents of child sacrifice

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I don't think there has ever been any doubt that the claims of child sacrifice have been

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Looks like we're in for another ideologically based "edit war" from Marduk and friends.

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people instead of overtop the system, and despite people. The choice whether it is your

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I don't think I can write the actual entry, though. Can someone work with me on this? -

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Obviously, readers of Knowledge should probably come to the evential conclusion that

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That said, I'm not questioning the truth or falsehood of child sacrifice in Carthage.

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3) Archeologists have found some depictions of priests carrying children to sacrifice

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removed a relevant reference (which had been there 2 years!) from the bibliography:

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1) According to the Hebrews, the Phoenicians did it (and some Hebrews emulated them)

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Objections to websites as sources when they have unsourced and unreferenced claims

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as...". Sidesteps any "fuzzy" claims and lets the reader make up their own mind. -

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mytho-history of many of the mediterranean cultures clustered in the Bronze Age is

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Persians distanced themselves from some (ethnically similar or identical) heathen

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you push far enough he will more likely show the true weather of his intentions.

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Welcome. I hope your experience here will be pleasant, enjoyable and productive.

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Rome did not destroy Carthage for existing. They destroyed Carthage because they

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The main argument AGAINST the reality of child sacrifice in Carthage seems to be:

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thousand years of historians and their writings. Good luck, you'll need it :) -

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Looks like Marduck is returning - I hadn't spotted this before posting below. -

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If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the

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the historical material is tinged with other cultures' opinions about Carthage.

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Good, Vedexent. Let's keep an eye on this article but "Don't feed the trolls".

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hard to classify as either myth or history. We have input from the writings of

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the other) - but it "glosses over" some of the actual nasty things the Romans

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Trade with the Celtiberians, Gauls, and Celts for amber, tin, silver, and furs

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There is a great amount of information on Carthage and other Punic cities on

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The main arguments FOR the reality of child sacrifice in Carthage seem to be:

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and discuss any controversial edits here rather than edit warring over them.

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wrote, I would say "make sure that your additions are based on citations of

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Obtaining of salt, timber, ivory, ebony and gold from the interior of Africa

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discussions here) - perhaps acting as "Carthaginian advocate" if you like.

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discussion of Carthage's international interactions might be called for?

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The current western view of Carthage may be unfairly biased, but Marduk's

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money - they also require that you pay your bill at the end of the month.

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For those who missed it, this is what I found in a Tunisian travel guide:

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those of you oppose the idea - to add comments to it please. Thank you.

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umm not really sprinkle some salt if your content with "Sprinkling" ...

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Some evidence of the racists attitudes attributed to the Romans. It is

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You're ahead of us, but you haven't got to that point yet.... OK.... -

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subject to the same penalties for violating those rules as we all are.

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for an excuse. The speeches of Cato reflect this. Nowhere have I seen

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in the nominative plural. The Greek adjective meaning "Phoenician" is

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article (which I created by extracting text from this article and the

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by notable writers and scholars is acceptable, if mentioned as such,

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simply does not exist in Latin. The Latin noun meaning "a Punian" is

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How they had quadriremes and quentiremes and Phoenicia Proper did not

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a "Carthaginian apologist"; that is just good academic reporting. -

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The well known historian Lucius Barca has advanced the idea that ...

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even though it was (almost) a purely internal Carthaginian event. -

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involvement in the conflicts), Carthage actually signed a treaty of

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I've posted a query on nl:wiki asking for their source for Postinus.

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has commented to me that he thinks this article has potential to be

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was established, with all power was given to the Council of Elders.

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The English adjective "Punic" is derived from the Latin adjective

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citations. If you took that as a personal affront, I apologize. -

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http://archaeology.stanford.edu/journal/newdraft/garnand/paper.pdf

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practices that violate all moral norms. In the ancient world this

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part of the article. The article, if it is to be fair, should not

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and Cathaginian conflicts. I've added that caption to the map. -

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but it just seems this page is going to get hounded on and on...

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I just wish certain members could find other uses for there time

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In which case it already has a mention in the article under the

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LOL - I had an amusing thought: Having Marduck around might be

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YET again about a civilization in which they hate and despise.

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I would very much like people - both those of you who support

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version of Knowledge, the Arabic terms are secondary. In the

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we lock the page down under partial protection like last time

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nipped over to Sicily to battle the Carthaginians during the

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the Romans demanded the Carthaginian population move inland.

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that Rome wanted to destroy Carthage, and was probably just

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things attibuted to Carthage, and letting the reader choose

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is a valid point to mention, as well as all the support and

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Carthage#Arguments against the existence of child sacrifice

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great. It's a usual pattern with new religions. Similarly,

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version of the article, the English would be secondary. -

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something. You don't just "make up something plausible.".

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Thanks to whomever revised it. It reads a lot better now.

726:. Shelby Brown. Sheffield: Sheffield Academic Press, 1991. 3148:

I did cite them and you restored the 'unreferenced' tag.

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Ok - I give up. I've just been accused of taking pushing

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Carthage, and considered it a threat (not a particularly

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rather than quoting "Lucius Barca's" ideas as "truth".

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Some reputable scholarship about the speculation as to

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Garbage, anti-Carthaginian prancing and child sacrifice

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Another example: is it possible to destroy the Memory?

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slaughter everything that moves", as the edit implies.

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getting destroyed by the next wave of conquerors... -

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with a request that it be cleaned up and put into the

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citation background (which it was fair to ask of the

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Trade in precious jewels and works in precious jewels

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You don't need to give up on the article Marduk. You

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Let's move on and get some work done now, shall we?

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Which is the source that certain people keep taking

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long term historical view of Carthage in this matter

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the Pontifex Maximus - I can't remember which. Most

2278:anon editors - marduck or not - can't follow them, 1938:website. Apart from the issue of whether this is a 1672:

Obtaining silver and gold from Corsica and Sardinia

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The Tophet, centre of Carthaginian child sacrifice:

4203:(c.550BCE-308BCE) was the Imperial Government of 1665:Production of famous furniture, beds, and bedding 1546:I moved this material here because of its use of 1165:, and easily capable of barbarity and stupidity, 1024:a registered member means you would have to work 3661:http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/resolveform 3098:a "tacked-on" claim my an anonymous editor that 1453:as abhorrant, and so usually describes supposed 999:If I were you I'd seek professional assistance. 2677:Knowledge:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents 1652:The Carthaginian practice of trading by auction 4249:. The new government was based on that of the 2620:guidelines, with banning for repeat offenses. 3560:wp:not#Knowledge is NOT a paper encyclopedia 3126:whoever you are and whatever you're claiming 1808:while Rome was consolidating power over the 1776:, which were expanded between the First and 109:Does this article have potential to be a FA? 4245:, the last true king, and the oust ouf the 3659:. All this can easily be checked online at 1784:, in response to the territory lost on the 1996:are using, or the veracity/credibility of 1662:Sale of dried Atlantic fish and fish sauce 1254:evidence to X's viewpoint..." and let the 1150:they are the vast majority of what we have 184:article has the potential to be FA ;) The 3589:The article contains the following line: 1768:: Carthage is shown holding territory on 565:Verifiability of child sacrifice details? 2366:to aid Rome against the depredations of 1167:just like every other human civilization 910:Can someone archive chunks of this page? 4241:used after the failed military coup by 3124:pushing: show me citations for claims, 2004:While I have not exhaustively examined 14: 3687:be accurate, but we can't say one way 3415:What ever happened to Carthage (redux) 2429:Knowledge:Requests for page protection 1832:and Carthage, but in the midst of the 1621:Tyrian purple and embroidered textiles 1563:poor punctuation, capitalization, etc. 1496:article is older than the text in the 1241:that child sacrifice occured, but the 990:Good luck and I hope you all have fun 882:Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg 835:Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg 44:Do not edit the contents of this page. 3986:(sp?), the Carthaginian raisin wine? 2416:Page Protection: Request for comments 1828:, prior to the conflicts between the 1072:Phoenician city sacrifice children? 480:So, about this rebuilding Carthage... 403:Yes, of course. Did you get a brain? 3737:that most Carthaginians died in the 3094:that claim - what I tried to do was 2269:Just as a reassurance ( ;) ), if it 1524:Carthage#Evidence from Roman sources 1417:Religion in Carthage#Child sacrifice 25: 3833:just reverted the whole section. - 2440:as a registered, non-anonymous user 1444:Child sacrifice section - revisited 1095:were in fact of phoenician origin. 23: 2598:when there's so very little of it 1427:This should be masked, of course. 1180:equally reprehensible reverse bias 24: 4348: 4270:I find fault with the following: 3853:Carthage#Carthage in modern times 3817:The Myth of the Twentieth Century 3702:So - here's what I'd like to see 3599:Is this accurate? I thought that 2961:show me the publication citations 2723:quicker to everyone. My $ 0.02 - 2234:What else do you find dubious? -- 1516:Don't think of them as barbarians 607:for the last (recorded) time the 3851:relevant? Perhaps it belongs in 2851:Knowledge:Requests for checkuser 2046:About the tonnage of cargo ships 29: 4207:that was established after the 2628:Knowledge:Neutral point of view 2078:Tunisia until the XX century.-- 1875:I'm currently working with the 442:Carthage is famous for! :) -- 4266:Trade Contacts and Discoveries 4165:The term Carthage refers to... 2667:Knowledge:Requests for comment 2552:A Clean future for the article 1229:of "child sacrifice" not only 905:13:00, 15 September 2006 (UTC) 13: 1: 4329:03:39, 29 December 2006 (UTC) 4314:19:19, 22 December 2006 (UTC) 4304:22:34, 20 November 2006 (UTC) 2129:Talk:Carthage/Human Sacrifice 1853:Introduction and a few points 1616:More economic and naval stuff 1586:springs immediately to mind.) 1486:Talk:Carthage/Human Sacrifice 1256:reader make up their own mind 951:Talk:Carthage/Human Sacrifice 936:Talk:Carthage/Human Sacrifice 932:Talk:Carthage/Human Sacrifice 662:05:00, 28 November 2006 (UTC) 4290:19:35, 5 November 2006 (UTC) 4253:and was centered around the 3651:in the nominative singular, 2672:Knowledge:Resolving disputes 2495:Foreign opinions of Carthage 2469:Thank you to those who have 2096:11:10, 5 November 2006 (UTC) 1897:A map of the acient city of 1395:15:59, 24 April 2006 (UTC)-- 7: 4188:These paragraghs come from 4179:17:23, 30 August 2006 (UTC) 4159:16:11, 27 August 2006 (UTC) 4147:15:50, 27 August 2006 (UTC) 4129:12:35, 18 August 2006 (UTC) 4119:edit authors as well). The 4109:19:12, 15 August 2006 (UTC) 4093:23:52, 12 August 2006 (UTC) 4055:As a clarification of what 4036:19:32, 12 August 2006 (UTC) 4026:19:20, 12 August 2006 (UTC) 4016:19:32, 12 August 2006 (UTC) 4006:19:17, 12 August 2006 (UTC) 3991:00:07, 11 August 2006 (UTC) 3969:22:03, 10 August 2006 (UTC) 3919:17:36, 10 August 2006 (UTC) 3887:17:36, 10 August 2006 (UTC) 3465:Is is worth mentioning the 2662:Knowledge:Three-revert rule 2655:and the related section on 2633:Knowledge:Assume good faith 10: 4353: 4338:05:40, 31 March 2007 (UTC) 3928:Even published, unproven, 3898:20:03, 9 August 2006 (UTC) 3860:19:53, 9 August 2006 (UTC) 3838:21:15, 8 August 2006 (UTC) 3824:15:16, 8 August 2006 (UTC) 3809:14:08, 8 August 2006 (UTC) 3796:12:40, 8 August 2006 (UTC) 3783:07:58, 6 August 2006 (UTC) 3670:07:16, 6 August 2006 (UTC) 3622:14:06, 4 August 2006 (UTC) 2612:Battening down the hatches 1633:Working of ivory and ebony 1492:article. The text in the 1432:22:55, 24 April 2006 (UTC) 1400:15:59, 24 April 2006 (UTC) 1348:I agree with most of what 1336:00:19, 22 April 2006 (UTC) 1110:22:24, 21 April 2006 (UTC) 1100:22:20, 21 April 2006 (UTC) 1046:23:51, 20 April 2006 (UTC) 1004:11:03, 24 April 2006 (UTC) 967:02:47, 19 April 2006 (UTC) 919:23:07, 18 April 2006 (UTC) 874:20:57, 29 April 2006 (UTC) 842:09:00, 24 April 2006 (UTC) 822:03:51, 19 April 2006 (UTC) 753:03:51, 19 April 2006 (UTC) 736:03:35, 19 April 2006 (UTC) 712:02:35, 19 April 2006 (UTC) 702:23:02, 18 April 2006 (UTC) 647:10:19, 18 April 2006 (UTC) 629:00:07, 21 April 2006 (UTC) 616:09:55, 18 April 2006 (UTC) 585:08:53, 18 April 2006 (UTC) 557:04:16, 18 April 2006 (UTC) 524:02:44, 18 April 2006 (UTC) 510:00:29, 18 April 2006 (UTC) 469:15:43, 17 April 2006 (UTC) 428:15:36, 17 April 2006 (UTC) 419:17:10, 16 April 2006 (UTC) 393:Does this mean something? 355:15:24, 17 April 2006 (UTC) 333:17:04, 16 April 2006 (UTC) 315:16:47, 16 April 2006 (UTC) 281:15:58, 16 April 2006 (UTC) 263:02:52, 16 April 2006 (UTC) 232:01:28, 16 April 2006 (UTC) 222:00:13, 16 April 2006 (UTC) 210:23:54, 15 April 2006 (UTC) 172:20:47, 15 April 2006 (UTC) 159:, Carthage was founded by 150:20:28, 15 April 2006 (UTC) 130:20:28, 15 April 2006 (UTC) 3627:Etymologies (Latin/Greek) 3612:21:08, 28 July 2006 (UTC) 3575:23:36, 30 June 2006 (UTC) 3553:22:09, 29 June 2006 (UTC) 3538:12:18, 28 June 2006 (UTC) 3528:12:09, 28 June 2006 (UTC) 3515:12:25, 28 June 2006 (UTC) 3502:05:52, 28 June 2006 (UTC) 3491:22:17, 27 June 2006 (UTC) 3455:13:01, 27 June 2006 (UTC) 3428:17:53, 22 June 2006 (UTC) 3410:08:08, 27 June 2006 (UTC) 3397:12:58, 27 June 2006 (UTC) 3371:06:04, 27 June 2006 (UTC) 3355:21:28, 19 June 2006 (UTC) 3297:15:11, 14 June 2006 (UTC) 3275:13:29, 15 June 2006 (UTC) 3225:13:18, 15 June 2006 (UTC) 3213:13:06, 15 June 2006 (UTC) 3168:12:54, 15 June 2006 (UTC) 3153:12:43, 15 June 2006 (UTC) 3077:12:26, 15 June 2006 (UTC) 3066:12:01, 15 June 2006 (UTC) 3032:10:26, 15 June 2006 (UTC) 2981:15:12, 13 June 2006 (UTC) 2942:10:47, 13 June 2006 (UTC) 2875:18:36, 12 June 2006 (UTC) 2833:18:04, 12 June 2006 (UTC) 2781:17:26, 12 June 2006 (UTC) 2768:18:21, 11 June 2006 (UTC) 2739:16:34, 11 June 2006 (UTC) 2603:17:23, 12 June 2006 (UTC) 2592:16:02, 11 June 2006 (UTC) 2573:14:58, 11 June 2006 (UTC) 2562:14:52, 11 June 2006 (UTC) 2546:14:09, 11 June 2006 (UTC) 2505:13:56, 11 June 2006 (UTC) 2489:16:45, 10 June 2006 (UTC) 2410:22:15, 10 June 2006 (UTC) 398:00:37, 22 June 2006 (UTC) 4233:(308BCE-146BCE) was the 4042:Ahem, I take umbrage at 2895:Evidence from archeology 2638:Knowledge:Citing sources 2393:22:48, 9 June 2006 (UTC) 2317:18:49, 9 June 2006 (UTC) 2298:17:20, 9 June 2006 (UTC) 2264:16:51, 9 June 2006 (UTC) 2229:22:38, 6 June 2006 (UTC) 2191:22:14, 6 June 2006 (UTC) 2177:16:59, 9 June 2006 (UTC) 2145:19:22, 6 June 2006 (UTC) 2119:20:32, 4 June 2006 (UTC) 2083:23:55, 5 June 2006 (UTC) 2059:18:27, 3 June 2006 (UTC) 2024:15:18, 3 June 2006 (UTC) 1967:04:43, 3 June 2006 (UTC) 1921:04:28, 3 June 2006 (UTC) 1866:23:31, 1 June 2006 (UTC) 1841:12:15, 28 May 2006 (UTC) 1764:It clearly predates the 1751:00:20, 24 May 2006 (UTC) 1718:14:25, 28 May 2006 (UTC) 1696:00:16, 24 May 2006 (UTC) 1610:15:26, 23 May 2006 (UTC) 1541:10:22, 23 May 2006 (UTC) 1510:17:18, 18 May 2006 (UTC) 1466:15:40, 18 May 2006 (UTC) 598:is that it is a case of 3699:demanding more, etc.). 2653:Knowledge:Sock puppetry 1951:the website creator. - 1630:Glassmaking and pottery 1554:first and second person 889:07:59, 6 May 2006 (UTC) 809:and need to be removed. 383:Africa doesn't forget. 103:03:20, 1 May 2006 (UTC) 3855:, but not in the top. 2110:start soon -- Takashi 1678:Works of iron and lead 1572:contradictory argument 1087:Yeah, I've heard that 1076:about ancient Sidon? 98:was to be vowel-ized. 4231:Carthaginean Republic 4225:Carthaginean Republic 4194:Carthaginean Republic 3846:Two little questions. 3770:something, you don't 3733:Some support for the 3566:was an "addendum" to 1882:I would like to find 1376:Religion in Phoenicia 972:what a sad collection 953:page as appropriate. 250:Alexander the Great.' 42:of past discussions. 3978:Can anyone document 3726:historical evidence. 3675:The fall of Carthage 2905:Religion in Carthage 2196:Recent Minor Changes 1930:Someone has added a 1557:awkward construction 1494:Religion in Carthage 1490:Religion in Carthage 1372:Religion in Carthage 1368:Religion in Carthage 1059:http://phoenicia.org 993:Yours truly--Marduk 571:Religion in Carthage 163:after she fled from 4247:Carthaginean Empire 4201:Carthaginean Empire 4190:Carthaginean Empire 4174:Carthage today. -- 3421:Exarchate of Africa 3361:better shut up now. 3046:Knowledge:Vandalism 3023:Apologists go here 2914:might come out of: 2648:Knowledge:Consensus 1892:Battle of "The Saw" 1757:New Carthage, etc.) 1566:rhetorical question 1225:The mention of the 433:Cartago delenda est 371:Well said, Marduk. 4259:Proconsular Africa 3564:Russian revolution 2643:Knowledge:Edit war 2368:Pyrrhus of Epirus 2238:16:14, 7 June 2006 1788:islands after the 1163:human civilization 490:on this talk page. 462:Battle of Carthage 386:You didn't exist. 4255:Council of Elders 4219:. The last king, 4217:Council of Elders 3302:On the Brightside 2711:I think treating 2471:already commented 2370:. Perhaps a more 2345: 2331:comment added by 1814:Pyrrhus of Epirus 1778:Second Punic Wars 240:been real people. 195:Junianus Justinus 82: 81: 54: 53: 48:current talk page 4344: 4295:Transliterations 4237:government that 4061:reliable sources 3637:Punicus, -a, -um 3585:Primary sources? 3035:Soon to be Kadaj 2910:I'm thinking it 2420:Well, given the 2344: 2325: 2243:Marduk's Return? 2064:Size of the city 1934:of links to the 1214:Battle of Cannae 1093:Scipio Africanus 717:This recent edit 605:Battle of Cannae 446:, Latin Teacher 135:Dido and Elissar 68: 56: 55: 33: 32: 26: 4352: 4351: 4347: 4346: 4345: 4343: 4342: 4341: 4321: 4297: 4268: 4186: 4167: 3998: 3976: 3848: 3766:. If you don't 3677: 3629: 3587: 3508:First Punic War 3471:First Punic War 3463: 3417: 3304: 3286: 3284:Nearly finished 3187:, which is now 3183:, in this edit 2897: 2614: 2554: 2497: 2418: 2351: 2349:Just Conflicts? 2326: 2245: 2198: 2184: 2114:Hopefully not. 2103: 2066: 2048: 1987:) 10:01, 3 June 1928: 1926:Citation Errors 1873: 1871:Map Expansions? 1855: 1790:First Punic War 1766:First Punic War 1740: 1618: 1551:imperative mood 1518: 1446: 1429:Septentrionalis 1282:on the evidence 1055: 1039:methods and ego 974: 912: 626:Septentrionalis 567: 482: 435: 412: 389:Signed Mohamed 180:Theoretically, 137: 114:User:Bridesmill 111: 90: 64: 30: 22: 21: 20: 12: 11: 5: 4350: 4335:68.223.146.109 4320: 4317: 4308: 4296: 4293: 4278: 4277: 4275: 4267: 4264: 4263: 4262: 4251:Roman Republic 4228: 4185: 4184:From redirects 4182: 4166: 4163: 4162: 4161: 4153: 4132: 4131: 4097: 4096: 4085: 4084: 4080: 4079: 4075: 4074: 4065: 4064: 4052: 4051: 4039: 4038: 4019: 4018: 3997: 3994: 3975: 3972: 3941: 3940: 3922: 3921: 3910: 3909: 3890: 3889: 3873: 3872: 3847: 3844: 3843: 3842: 3841: 3840: 3827: 3826: 3793:82.101.143.157 3759: 3758: 3751: 3731: 3727: 3719: 3676: 3673: 3628: 3625: 3597: 3596: 3586: 3583: 3578: 3577: 3541: 3540: 3520: 3519: 3518: 3517: 3462: 3459: 3458: 3457: 3416: 3413: 3402: 3401: 3400: 3399: 3374: 3373: 3363: 3362: 3310: 3303: 3300: 3285: 3282: 3280: 3278: 3277: 3245: 3244: 3218: 3217: 3216: 3215: 3171: 3170: 3146: 3145: 3112: 3111: 3069: 3068: 3017: 3015: 3013: 2994:references. - 2984: 2983: 2896: 2893: 2886: 2884: 2883: 2882: 2881: 2880: 2879: 2878: 2877: 2861: 2860: 2859: 2858: 2857: 2856: 2855: 2854: 2840: 2839: 2838: 2837: 2836: 2835: 2804: 2803: 2802: 2801: 2800: 2799: 2786: 2785: 2784: 2783: 2771: 2770: 2680: 2679: 2674: 2669: 2664: 2659: 2650: 2645: 2640: 2635: 2630: 2613: 2610: 2609: 2608: 2585: 2584: 2583: 2582: 2576: 2575: 2553: 2550: 2549: 2548: 2526: 2525: 2517: 2516: 2496: 2493: 2492: 2491: 2417: 2414: 2413: 2412: 2401: 2400: 2350: 2347: 2333:82.101.143.201 2322: 2321: 2320: 2319: 2310: 2307: 2301: 2300: 2244: 2241: 2240: 2239: 2197: 2194: 2183: 2180: 2159: 2158: 2150: 2149: 2148: 2147: 2135: 2134: 2133: 2132: 2122: 2121: 2102: 2099: 2088: 2087: 2086: 2085: 2065: 2062: 2047: 2044: 2042:) 5 June 2006 1989: 1988: 1927: 1924: 1903: 1902: 1895: 1872: 1869: 1854: 1851: 1846: 1845: 1844: 1843: 1830:Roman Republic 1798:Ancient Greeks 1759: 1758: 1739: 1736: 1735: 1734: 1733: 1732: 1723: 1722: 1721: 1720: 1680: 1679: 1676: 1673: 1670: 1666: 1663: 1660: 1656: 1653: 1650: 1647: 1644: 1641: 1637: 1634: 1631: 1628: 1625: 1622: 1617: 1614: 1613: 1612: 1603: 1598: 1597: 1588: 1587: 1578: 1577: 1576: 1575: 1574: 1573: 1570: 1569:bald assertion 1567: 1564: 1561: 1558: 1555: 1552: 1533: 1532: 1517: 1514: 1513: 1512: 1502: 1501: 1480: 1479: 1474: 1473: 1445: 1442: 1441: 1440: 1439: 1438: 1437: 1436: 1435: 1434: 1412: 1411: 1410: 1409: 1408: 1407: 1406: 1384: 1383: 1382: 1381: 1380: 1379: 1359: 1358: 1357: 1356: 1355: 1354: 1341: 1340: 1339: 1338: 1323:the evidence, 1310: 1309: 1308: 1307: 1293: 1292: 1291: 1290: 1262: 1261: 1260: 1259: 1220: 1219: 1218: 1217: 1195: 1194: 1193: 1192: 1173: 1172: 1171: 1170: 1156: 1155: 1154: 1153: 1148:, but because 1139: 1138: 1137: 1136: 1126: 1125: 1124: 1123: 1103: 1102: 1054: 1051: 1050: 1049: 1048: 1009: 1008: 1007: 1006: 973: 970: 911: 908: 894: 892: 891: 847: 846: 845: 844: 827: 826: 825: 824: 813: 812: 811: 810: 800: 799: 798: 797: 791: 790: 789: 788: 782: 781: 780: 779: 773: 772: 771: 770: 767: 764: 758: 757: 756: 755: 747: 744: 728: 727: 705: 704: 693: 692: 691: 690: 687: 684: 681: 678: 671: 669: 668: 667: 666: 665: 664: 640: 637: 634: 633: 632: 631: 592:highly dubious 566: 563: 562: 561: 560: 559: 548: 547: 546: 545: 529: 527: 526: 514: 504: 481: 478: 474: 473: 472: 471: 452:All these are 434: 431: 411: 408: 401: 400: 370: 364: 363: 362: 361: 360: 359: 358: 357: 340: 339: 338: 337: 336: 335: 320: 319: 318: 317: 298:...", or "The 288: 287: 286: 285: 284: 283: 268: 267: 266: 265: 254: 253: 252: 251: 244: 243: 242: 241: 215: 214: 213: 212: 175: 174: 136: 133: 110: 107: 106: 105: 89: 88:Quick question 86: 84: 80: 79: 74: 69: 62: 52: 51: 34: 15: 9: 6: 4: 3: 2: 4349: 4340: 4339: 4336: 4331: 4330: 4327: 4316: 4315: 4312: 4311:Jehuty Strife 4306: 4305: 4302: 4292: 4291: 4288: 4287:D.E. Cottrell 4282: 4276: 4273: 4272: 4271: 4260: 4256: 4252: 4248: 4244: 4240: 4236: 4232: 4229: 4226: 4222: 4218: 4214: 4210: 4206: 4202: 4199: 4198: 4197: 4195: 4191: 4181: 4180: 4177: 4176:Easter Monkey 4172: 4160: 4157: 4154: 4151: 4150: 4149: 4148: 4145: 4140: 4136: 4130: 4127: 4122: 4118: 4113: 4112: 4111: 4110: 4107: 4101: 4094: 4091: 4087: 4086: 4082: 4081: 4077: 4076: 4072: 4067: 4066: 4062: 4058: 4054: 4053: 4049: 4048:User:Vedexent 4045: 4041: 4040: 4037: 4034: 4030: 4029: 4028: 4027: 4024: 4017: 4014: 4010: 4009: 4008: 4007: 4004: 3993: 3992: 3989: 3985: 3981: 3971: 3970: 3967: 3963: 3959: 3955: 3950: 3944: 3938: 3935: 3934: 3933: 3931: 3926: 3920: 3917: 3912: 3911: 3906: 3905:Talk:Carthage 3902: 3901: 3900: 3899: 3896: 3888: 3885: 3880: 3875: 3874: 3869: 3864: 3863: 3862: 3861: 3858: 3854: 3839: 3836: 3831: 3830: 3829: 3828: 3825: 3822: 3818: 3813: 3812: 3811: 3810: 3807: 3801: 3800: 3797: 3794: 3788: 3785: 3784: 3781: 3775: 3773: 3769: 3765: 3756: 3752: 3748: 3744: 3743:family tutors 3740: 3736: 3732: 3728: 3725: 3720: 3717: 3713: 3709: 3705: 3704: 3703: 3700: 3698: 3694: 3690: 3686: 3681: 3672: 3671: 3668: 3664: 3662: 3658: 3654: 3650: 3646: 3642: 3638: 3633: 3624: 3623: 3620: 3614: 3613: 3610: 3606: 3602: 3595: 3592: 3591: 3590: 3582: 3576: 3573: 3572:85.187.44.131 3569: 3565: 3561: 3557: 3556: 3555: 3554: 3551: 3547: 3539: 3536: 3532: 3531: 3530: 3529: 3526: 3516: 3513: 3509: 3505: 3504: 3503: 3500: 3495: 3494: 3493: 3492: 3488: 3484: 3480: 3476: 3472: 3468: 3467:Mercenary War 3461:Mercenary War 3456: 3452: 3448: 3444: 3440: 3436: 3432: 3431: 3430: 3429: 3426: 3422: 3412: 3411: 3408: 3398: 3394: 3390: 3386: 3382: 3378: 3377: 3376: 3375: 3372: 3369: 3365: 3364: 3359: 3358: 3357: 3356: 3353: 3348: 3347: 3342: 3339: 3335: 3332: 3328: 3324: 3320: 3317: 3313: 3308: 3299: 3298: 3295: 3291: 3281: 3276: 3272: 3268: 3264: 3260: 3256: 3252: 3247: 3246: 3242: 3238: 3234: 3229: 3228: 3227: 3226: 3223: 3214: 3210: 3206: 3202: 3198: 3194: 3190: 3186: 3182: 3178: 3175: 3174: 3173: 3172: 3169: 3166: 3162: 3157: 3156: 3155: 3154: 3151: 3143: 3139: 3135: 3131: 3127: 3123: 3119: 3114: 3113: 3109: 3105: 3101: 3097: 3093: 3089: 3085: 3081: 3080: 3079: 3078: 3075: 3067: 3063: 3059: 3055: 3051: 3047: 3043: 3039: 3038: 3037: 3036: 3033: 3030: 3026: 3020: 3014: 3011: 3009: 3005: 3001: 2997: 2993: 2989: 2982: 2978: 2974: 2970: 2966: 2962: 2958: 2954: 2950: 2946: 2945: 2944: 2943: 2939: 2935: 2931: 2927: 2923: 2918: 2915: 2913: 2908: 2906: 2902: 2892: 2891: 2876: 2873: 2869: 2868: 2867: 2866: 2865: 2864: 2863: 2862: 2852: 2848: 2847: 2846: 2845: 2844: 2843: 2842: 2841: 2834: 2830: 2826: 2822: 2818: 2814: 2810: 2809: 2808: 2807: 2806: 2805: 2796: 2792: 2791: 2790: 2789: 2788: 2787: 2782: 2779: 2778:KongminRegent 2775: 2774: 2773: 2772: 2769: 2765: 2762: 2759: 2755: 2751: 2747: 2743: 2742: 2741: 2740: 2736: 2733: 2730: 2726: 2722: 2719:faster and a 2718: 2714: 2709: 2707: 2702: 2699: 2697: 2693: 2689: 2684: 2678: 2675: 2673: 2670: 2668: 2665: 2663: 2660: 2658: 2654: 2651: 2649: 2646: 2644: 2641: 2639: 2636: 2634: 2631: 2629: 2626: 2625: 2624: 2621: 2617: 2607: 2606:KongminRegent 2604: 2601: 2600:KongminRegent 2596: 2595: 2594: 2593: 2590: 2580: 2579: 2578: 2577: 2574: 2571: 2566: 2565: 2564: 2563: 2560: 2547: 2543: 2540: 2537: 2533: 2528: 2527: 2523: 2519: 2518: 2514: 2509: 2508: 2507: 2506: 2503: 2502:KongminRegent 2490: 2486: 2483: 2480: 2476: 2472: 2468: 2467: 2466: 2464: 2461: 2458: 2454: 2450: 2448: 2443: 2441: 2435: 2433: 2430: 2425: 2423: 2411: 2408: 2403: 2402: 2397: 2396: 2395: 2394: 2390: 2387: 2384: 2380: 2375: 2373: 2369: 2365: 2361: 2357: 2346: 2342: 2338: 2334: 2330: 2318: 2315: 2311: 2308: 2305: 2304: 2303: 2302: 2299: 2295: 2292: 2289: 2285: 2281: 2277: 2272: 2268: 2267: 2266: 2265: 2261: 2258: 2255: 2251: 2237: 2236:KongminRegent 2233: 2232: 2231: 2230: 2227: 2221: 2217: 2213: 2209: 2207: 2201: 2193: 2192: 2189: 2179: 2178: 2174: 2171: 2168: 2164: 2156: 2155:KongminRegent 2152: 2151: 2146: 2143: 2139: 2138: 2137: 2136: 2130: 2126: 2125: 2124: 2123: 2120: 2117: 2113: 2112: 2111: 2107: 2098: 2097: 2094: 2093:Phileosophian 2084: 2081: 2076: 2075: 2074: 2073: 2072: 2071: 2070:KongminRegent 2061: 2060: 2057: 2051: 2043: 2041: 2038: 2035: 2031: 2030:KongminRegent 2026: 2025: 2021: 2018: 2015: 2011: 2007: 2006:phoenicia.org 2002: 1999: 1995: 1986: 1983: 1980: 1976: 1975:KongminRegent 1971: 1970: 1969: 1968: 1964: 1961: 1958: 1954: 1950: 1946: 1941: 1937: 1936:phoenicia.org 1933: 1923: 1922: 1918: 1915: 1912: 1908: 1900: 1896: 1893: 1889: 1885: 1884: 1883: 1880: 1878: 1877:Mercenary War 1868: 1867: 1864: 1858: 1850: 1842: 1839: 1835: 1831: 1827: 1823: 1819: 1815: 1811: 1807: 1803: 1799: 1795: 1794:Mercenary War 1791: 1787: 1786:Mediterranean 1783: 1779: 1775: 1771: 1767: 1763: 1762: 1761: 1760: 1755: 1754: 1753: 1752: 1749: 1744: 1731: 1730:KongminRegent 1727: 1726: 1725: 1724: 1719: 1716: 1711: 1710: 1709: 1708: 1707: 1706: 1705:KongminRegent 1701: 1698: 1697: 1694: 1689: 1686: 1685: 1684:KongminRegent 1677: 1674: 1671: 1667: 1664: 1661: 1657: 1654: 1651: 1648: 1645: 1642: 1638: 1635: 1632: 1629: 1626: 1624:Production of 1623: 1620: 1619: 1611: 1608: 1604: 1600: 1599: 1594: 1590: 1589: 1585: 1584:honor killing 1580: 1579: 1571: 1568: 1565: 1562: 1560:informal tone 1559: 1556: 1553: 1550: 1549: 1548: 1547: 1545: 1544: 1543: 1542: 1539: 1531: 1529: 1525: 1520: 1519: 1511: 1508: 1504: 1503: 1499: 1495: 1491: 1487: 1482: 1481: 1476: 1475: 1470: 1469: 1468: 1467: 1464: 1460: 1456: 1452: 1433: 1430: 1426: 1425: 1424: 1423: 1422: 1421: 1420: 1418: 1413: 1403: 1402: 1401: 1398: 1394: 1390: 1389: 1388: 1387: 1386: 1385: 1377: 1373: 1369: 1365: 1364: 1363: 1362: 1361: 1360: 1351: 1347: 1346: 1345: 1344: 1343: 1342: 1337: 1334: 1330: 1326: 1322: 1319:the writing, 1318: 1314: 1313: 1312: 1311: 1305: 1301: 1297: 1296: 1295: 1294: 1287: 1283: 1279: 1275: 1270: 1266: 1265: 1264: 1263: 1257: 1253: 1248: 1244: 1240: 1236: 1232: 1228: 1224: 1223: 1222: 1221: 1215: 1211: 1207: 1203: 1199: 1198: 1197: 1196: 1190: 1186: 1181: 1177: 1176: 1175: 1174: 1168: 1164: 1160: 1159: 1158: 1157: 1151: 1147: 1143: 1142: 1141: 1140: 1134: 1130: 1129: 1128: 1127: 1121: 1116: 1115: 1114: 1113: 1112: 1111: 1108: 1101: 1098: 1094: 1090: 1086: 1085: 1084: 1081: 1077: 1073: 1069: 1066: 1062: 1060: 1047: 1044: 1040: 1036: 1032: 1031:valid sources 1027: 1023: 1019: 1015: 1011: 1010: 1005: 1002: 998: 997: 996: 995: 994: 991: 988: 984: 981: 978: 969: 968: 965: 961: 959: 954: 952: 947: 943: 939: 937: 933: 928: 924: 921: 920: 917: 907: 906: 903: 899: 895: 890: 887: 883: 878: 877: 876: 875: 872: 871:85.187.44.131 867: 865: 861: 857: 853: 843: 840: 836: 831: 830: 829: 828: 823: 820: 817: 816: 815: 814: 808: 804: 803: 802: 801: 795: 794: 793: 792: 786: 785: 784: 783: 777: 776: 775: 774: 768: 765: 762: 761: 760: 759: 754: 751: 748: 745: 742: 741: 740: 739: 738: 737: 734: 725: 722: 721: 720: 718: 714: 713: 710: 703: 700: 695: 694: 688: 685: 682: 679: 676: 675: 674: 673: 672: 663: 660: 655: 654: 653: 652: 651: 650: 649: 648: 645: 642: 630: 627: 624:sacrifice.). 623: 619: 618: 617: 614: 610: 606: 601: 597: 593: 589: 588: 587: 586: 583: 579: 575: 572: 558: 555: 552: 551: 550: 549: 543: 539: 538:Talk:Carthage 534: 533: 532: 531: 530: 525: 522: 517: 516: 515: 512: 511: 508: 502: 501: 496: 492: 491: 489: 477: 470: 467: 463: 459: 455: 451: 450: 449: 448: 447: 445: 441: 430: 429: 426: 421: 420: 417: 407: 404: 399: 396: 392: 391: 390: 387: 384: 381: 378: 375: 372: 368: 356: 353: 348: 347: 346: 345: 344: 343: 342: 341: 334: 331: 326: 325: 324: 323: 322: 321: 316: 313: 309: 305: 301: 297: 292: 291: 290: 289: 282: 279: 274: 273: 272: 271: 270: 269: 264: 261: 258: 257: 256: 255: 248: 247: 246: 245: 238: 237: 236: 235: 234: 233: 230: 224: 223: 220: 211: 208: 204: 202: 198: 196: 192: 187: 183: 179: 178: 177: 176: 173: 170: 166: 162: 158: 154: 153: 152: 151: 148: 144: 141: 132: 131: 128: 124: 121: 119: 115: 104: 101: 96: 95: 94: 85: 78: 75: 73: 70: 67: 63: 61: 58: 57: 49: 45: 41: 40: 35: 28: 27: 19: 18:Talk:Carthage 4332: 4322: 4307: 4298: 4283: 4279: 4269: 4230: 4200: 4187: 4170: 4168: 4141: 4137: 4133: 4120: 4116: 4102: 4098: 4057:Thanatosimii 4033:Thanatosimii 4020: 4013:Thanatosimii 3999: 3983: 3979: 3977: 3961: 3957: 3948: 3945: 3942: 3936: 3929: 3927: 3923: 3895:Thanatosimii 3891: 3878: 3868:another site 3857:Thanatosimii 3849: 3802: 3798: 3789: 3786: 3776: 3771: 3767: 3763: 3760: 3754: 3746: 3742: 3738: 3734: 3723: 3715: 3711: 3707: 3701: 3696: 3692: 3688: 3684: 3682: 3678: 3665: 3656: 3652: 3648: 3644: 3640: 3636: 3634: 3630: 3615: 3604: 3600: 3598: 3593: 3588: 3579: 3545: 3542: 3521: 3499:Throbblefoot 3464: 3434: 3425:Throbblefoot 3418: 3403: 3349: 3345: 3343: 3340: 3336: 3333: 3329: 3325: 3321: 3315: 3314: 3309: 3305: 3289: 3287: 3279: 3254: 3250: 3240: 3236: 3232: 3219: 3192: 3188: 3179:: you added 3176: 3147: 3125: 3121: 3117: 3107: 3103: 3099: 3095: 3091: 3087: 3083: 3070: 3041: 3034: 3021: 3016: 3012: 2991: 2987: 2985: 2960: 2956: 2952: 2948: 2947:Ok, someone 2921: 2919: 2916: 2911: 2909: 2900: 2898: 2889: 2885: 2812: 2794: 2760: 2749: 2745: 2731: 2720: 2716: 2712: 2710: 2705: 2703: 2700: 2695: 2691: 2687: 2685: 2681: 2622: 2618: 2615: 2586: 2555: 2538: 2512: 2498: 2481: 2459: 2451: 2446: 2444: 2439: 2436: 2431: 2426: 2422:recent edits 2419: 2385: 2376: 2371: 2363: 2359: 2352: 2323: 2290: 2275: 2270: 2256: 2246: 2222: 2218: 2214: 2210: 2205: 2202: 2199: 2185: 2169: 2160: 2157:5 June 2006. 2108: 2104: 2089: 2067: 2052: 2049: 2036: 2027: 2016: 2003: 1997: 1993: 1990: 1981: 1959: 1948: 1944: 1939: 1931: 1929: 1913: 1904: 1881: 1874: 1859: 1856: 1847: 1810:Latin League 1745: 1741: 1702: 1699: 1690: 1687: 1681: 1538:144.139.1.45 1534: 1521: 1458: 1454: 1450: 1447: 1414: 1328: 1324: 1320: 1316: 1303: 1299: 1289:propaganda). 1285: 1281: 1277: 1273: 1268: 1255: 1251: 1246: 1242: 1238: 1234: 1230: 1226: 1209: 1205: 1201: 1188: 1184: 1179: 1166: 1162: 1149: 1145: 1132: 1119: 1104: 1082: 1078: 1074: 1070: 1067: 1063: 1056: 1038: 1034: 1030: 1025: 1021: 1017: 1013: 992: 989: 985: 982: 979: 975: 962: 955: 948: 944: 940: 929: 925: 922: 913: 900: 896: 893: 868: 848: 729: 723: 715: 706: 670: 638: 635: 621: 608: 595: 591: 580: 576: 568: 528: 513: 503: 497: 493: 487: 485: 484:Disclaimer: 483: 475: 453: 439: 436: 422: 413: 405: 402: 388: 385: 382: 379: 376: 373: 369: 365: 307: 303: 299: 295: 225: 216: 190: 181: 145: 142: 138: 125: 122: 112: 100:Thanatosimii 91: 83: 65: 43: 37: 4319:Appearance? 4106:Dingo Egret 4044:Dingo Egret 4023:Dingo Egret 4003:Dingo Egret 3974:raisin wine 3956:. 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