692:"Cupid, I adore thee ! There is a charm Turn up your lip, old Sourcrout ! we care not. We — the young — the gay — the healthy — the happy! Wisdom! — physic — no more ! — fling them both to the dogs, say I. Wisdom ! — fiddlesticks ; I am tired ..." from "Monsieur Bossu's treatise of the epick poem: Preface of ... - Page 53" by ≤René Le Bossu, André Dacier, Fontenelle (Bernard Le Bovier, M. de) - 1719 - Snippet view. (Other sources date le Bossu's original work, likely in French where a different word might have been used to 1675). The references provided so far to beating on a violin with straws or sticks are not sufficient to show notability of that technique as a subject of an article about the musical technique.
606:" His use of "fiddlestick" (singular) there is neither employed as an interjection, nor does it carry the same meaning as the American Cajun usage of "fiddlesticks" (plural) when the latter is used as either just a noun to refer to the straws or sticks used to tap on a violin, or as the interjection "fiddlesticks!", both of which did in fact originate in 18th Century Cajun culture in the United States; and you'd be surprised,
580:, already. After due consideration to the amount of whatever talent anyone commenting here may have being wasted on this discussion, and my willingness to concede on the "too much original research" argument and on the point of "too few sources" (American Cajun traditions, mostly oral traditions, are still not extensively documented in written literature) --- I have changed my mind, and agree that the
640:, and "would love to come up with a rationale for keeping this one" --- but at some point it behooves us to desist from paddling against the rip-current of the millennial tide, and, not with any feelings of discontent nor regret, to content ourselves with the recognition that, as the novelist said: "
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Knowledge is not a dictionary. The sources cited above in this discussion show that "fiddlestick" and the exclamation "Fiddlesticks" date back to
Shakespeare's time and the claim that it is an important part of Cajun culture is not supported by reliable sources. Anyway, how many slaves had fiddles?
309:
When white plantation owners, as they often did, suppressed the use of
African musical instruments by slaves, they deprived those people of their traditional means of cultural rhythmic expression. Their continuing need to enjoy musical traditions and express rhythm found new outlets in a number of
719:
That's most interesting, and thank you so much for tracking it down. I appreciate knowing that the use of "fiddlesticks" as an exclamation or interjection may trace back that far. Even though the French original (which I have not perused) may not have included a term or word equivalent to
584:. Why should any of us worry about better informing the, in many instances benighted young users of Knowledge on topics such as one regarding the origins of an American cultural phenomena from Louisiana Cajun slave peoples' culture, or striving to better document same.
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different forms, one of which was straw beating on violins, or using "fiddlesticks", and the resultant concomitant expletive expression often muttered under ones breath back at their "Masters" and owners, that is the intended subject of this
Knowledge article.
610:, "how many slaves had fiddles" --- as they were more ingenious than you apparently give them credit for, and in many instances even learned to read, and dared to worship, though those activities were also forbidden in the majority of cases by their "owners".
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in the early history of the United States, which I do think is interesting; and it is my intention that myself and other editors will expand that aspect of this subject further as the article is further developed and improved upon from stub
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in the sense we're talking about here, which does indeed seem to validate its use as an exclamation as early as the early 18th-Century in
England. Thank you again. (Incidentally, are you aware that there already exists a Knowledge article
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not a dictionary. The second source even cites the first one. There is an etymology if you look for it but it's neither interesting, nor clear enough to build an article around. Even fleshed out it would be a permastub with bad sources.
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that are not supported by the references given. It essentially is now chock full of original research and shows a huge US bias even though what little information I have dug up points to the fact it's been in use since the 15th
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Professor JR, your ad hominem attack on "millenials" certainly misses in my case. "Fiddlesticks" appears to have been a term of derision by 1719. Google book search has a 1719 version (English translation of that date?)
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that my username was the inspiration for this article - but I can't find any coverage/scholarship on it besides the usual dictionary-style definitions. Regrettably, I think that makes it a
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I know that AfDs are closed by humans, there's a script that counts the votes for convenience. Not picking up an argument here, I think I know my way around, having been here so long. --
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This book seems to lend some credence to that narrative. But a lack of contemporaneous accounts or research that goes beyond one authors opinion is missing.--
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634:; and the context where "fiddlestick" appears in that line of the play certainly does not support that it is intended as an exclamation or interjection.
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It is NOT accurate, however, that the interjection "fiddlesticks!" dates "back to
Shakespeare's time", as has bee suggested by
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626:); and the playwright uses the term here to suggest metaphorically that the Devil is riding (or resting his case) on a
374:. (By the way, the word "etymology", perhaps ironically, has an entire long article on its own etymology in Knowledge (
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Etymology is an academic discipline. Regardless this discussion isn't about other articles. It's about this article.
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I appreciate and share your concerns for the integrity of
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
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as a musical technique, whether qualifying for notability or not I'll leave to others.) ---
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as a valid !vote, however I might be mistaken. I suggest you change the retain to
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we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past.
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or anyone else, as far as I know, for deletion, nor to be relegated only to
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Knowledge is not a dictionary. This is more appropriate for
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Heigh, heigh! the Devil rides upon a fiddlestick: what's the matter?
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Shakespeare's character, however, was referring merely to a violin
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Would love to come up with a rationale for keeping this one since
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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list of United States of
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warrant inclusion in our august, "etymology-free" Knowledge,
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Merriam
Webster - definition of "fiddlestick" (singular)
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Given the significance of the use of "Fiddlesticks!" in
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56:on 7 September as soft redirect to Wiktionary by
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