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229:(Replying to your reply at my talk page) I think a slight awkwardness between headings (change to which would be better sought through global means) is a small price to pay in return for enabling thousands of readers and listeners a better experience and even a more functional one. Maybe the headings in that article would be better served as emboldened text or merely paragraphs. The MoS advocates not linking headers, anyhow. -
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cannot make style judgements (it does not have eyes, for a start!); it can and will, however, fix a system that is at its core illogical and inconsistent in its eyes. To put it in perspective, of the nearly 3 million articles on
Knowledge, only 16,000 feel the need to jump straight from level 2 to level 4, or level 3 to level 5, or (etc). By the way, the Manual of Style advocating not jumping in this manner is
1468:. Since it looks like were at an impasse, I hoping we can get an administrator that can review both our understandings, then explain to us where either of us may be correct or incorrect, in order to resolve this. Can you help? From what you can tell, do you think we may need to involve another level of moderation? We all are working in good faith, but are coming to different conclusions. Thanks.
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1615:, how the article is so poorly written. In 2001/2002 season, Fleming sang the title role of ... at the Met.... sang x at San Francisco Opera... In 2002/2003 season, she sang y at Vienna.....In 2005, she sang.... etc. The article misses "overview" and "flow" of her life and archievement. Since you seem to be a coordinator of the project, I hope you can guide me.--
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test the water and see what kind of objections that would get. I'm a little worried we seem to have people who think it's a good idea to perform the same tasks multiple times. Not just categorization but rating articles too. It's even more worrying that people flat out fail to recognize the same tasks are being performed multiple times.
763:: To clarify again. By all means make improvements to the synopsis - but don't delete information. Add what you think should be added — but without removing the musical numbers. Regarding Alfred, he is described as a singing teacher by Andrew Lamb in Grove. Andrew Lamb is probably the leading specialist in this field.
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You are entitled to your own interpretation of the MoS. In my case, I take the MoS exactly as it stands. I don't make inferences. Anyway it's fine for you to have your own opinion. What is absolutely wrong is to use a bot to force it on other editors. Bots should never be used to do something that is
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While I'm all for authenticity, I think the exclusive use of German for the musical numbers would be unhelpful to most readers in this case. I believe this work is usually performed in
English in English speaking countries. I suggest to give the titles in both languages, although that might make the
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Don't get me wrong, I know where you're coming from here, and it's an issue I've given a great deal of thought to. If we look at it from the bot's point of view however: it's correcting a mistake, and then a human comes a long and makes a style judgement about the way an article should look. The bot
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Hi, Kleinzach, I'm asking your perspective on articles of opera singers. I must say that I'm quite surprised to know that articles of "current major" opera singers are really poorly written. I want to contribute to the field, bu I can't not find a "good" model for improving such articles. Could you
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Hi, it doesn't look like my proposal is going anywhere, I think partly because my intent was not understood and also because some people seem to be very protective over the whole stub thing. I'll just let it drop for now as it cannot be implemented with the current system anyway. I mostly wanted to
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teacher? In my copy of the score, and in every production I have ever seen, in
English or German, he is referred to as an Opera Singer (in fact there's a prominent joke about his profession in the third act.) Give me a convincing argument and I'll back down, but otherwise I'm changing it all back.
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Hey
Kleinzach. I agree completely about human editors being superior to bots, which is why the bot isn't altering the outline of the article at all. Instead, it's merely adjusting and filling in gaps where the article jumps from a level two to a level four, for example. I'll just have a look at the
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I'm of course not realy worried which way the merger goes, as I said on my original post on the merger talk, which you replied to there. (I have seen Swan Lake live, and the
Nutcracker, but that is 'cos I like a certain Russian's music - even if i can't spell his name - but have no knowledge about
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Other ballerinas danced it a few times, but it is really only since Sir
Anthony Dowell as Artistic Director of the Royal Ballet persuaded Ashton to allow him to stage a revival, thirty years later, that audiences have been able to appreciate the overall ballet, rather than just the performance of
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There is also a separate and more fundamental problem with categories: they are hierachical in nature, a relationship that cannot be handled well in database queries. For instance someone categorized in "american people" (but not in "people") cannot be readily queried as "people" at the database
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Kleinzach - May I ask why you deleted ALL of my edits to this page? Not to disparge your writing, but I feel like my synopsis gives a more complete and accurate representation of the version of events. Also, could you please tell me where exactly you are getting the idea that Alfred is a singing
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Can you convert the musical numbers to German? I think that's a good idea. Until then they should stay because it's considered vandalism to remove material instead of correcting it. Amplifying the synopsis is fine of course, no problem there. And
Eisenstein, as you point out, is not a
1116:. It was adapted from a novella by Friedrich de la Motte Fouqué and it tells the tale of a water nymph who is the object of desire of a young prince named Palemon. The score of Undine is a rarity as it is a "20th century full-length ballet score that has the depth of a masterwork".
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Where I linked to on the MoS, bullet 7, sub-bullet 2 ("primary headings are then ==H2==, followed by ===H3===, ====H4====, and so on."); for the W3C: they are referring to HTML, which is what
Knowledge is ultimately served to you and me as. Level two headings become h2s; level 3 -:
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For some time the better-informed and more experienced editors on opera (including members of the Opera
Project) have tended to avoid high profile articles on popular opera singers etc. because of interference from fans, vandals, IPs, 'celebrity-specializing' editors etc etc.
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Maybe it's suitable as a logo for your proposed organization? I'm interested in your ideas. Given sufficient flexibility it might really be possible to create a niche for content editors. One thing I'd like to ask: why an 'association'? To me this implies an organization
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seems to be the "best" article that deals with a "current major singer" among the worst. I don't think finding biography books is a big deal, so if I focus on one singers, I'm not sure why I have to worry about it. I just to want to find a fine model. If you see
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I only have a few recording released before 1930s, so I have a little knowledge and interest in historic singers. The recommended articles are also not my taste. I am interested in
Wagnerian singers (many are missing), and established/rising singers, but so far
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I'll make sure to revive this if we ever get better category queries, until then, I think the only way forward is to campaign for that to happen or get the work done, though given the main issue would be server load, an outsider is limited in what they can do.
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Other ballerinas danced it a few times, but it is really only since Sir Anthony Dowell as Artistic Director of the Royal Ballet persuaded Ashton to allow him to stage a revival, thirty years later, that audiences have been able to appreciate the overall
192:, I am happy to uphold LivingBot's edits. For accessibility, consistency and other reasons, it is advocated in the Manual of Style that heading levels not jump. Presumably it was a style issue that was driving the jump from level two to level four? -
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I deleted the "Musical Numbers" for two reasons: One, because the titles were in English, not German, and thus misleading, and also because they're not very necessery. If you wish to put them back in, I won't fuss, but please put them back in German.
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I would be more than happy to do that, although my reading of said bullet point does point towards singularly incrementing heading levels (my words in square brackets, purely to indicate how I interpret the guideline): "primary headings are then
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Thanks for your message. As you know, I've been expanding a bit, but am glad that you reverted his wholesale removals (Saint Louis, for example), so I left a note on his page to discuss rationale for removal on the article's "Ta;k" page.
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before you use your bot to make any further style changes. They are reasonable people and may try to accommodate your views - providing you consult them before you make any changes. Good luck with that. BTW I've changed the coding of the
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I think the problem here is that there are several widely-used english translations (I myself have sung at least three) so which english titles would you like us to use? I think German is the way to go here. I'll edit momentarily.
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I think most people are on the fence about this now, see the 'conditional acceptances'. A lot depends on how it is structured. Nevertheless those taking part in the discussions do have the opportunity of influencing the outcome.
474:, and so on." I'm interested that you disagree, but there's really no point splitting hairs. For the record, I like what you've done with Vanloo's article and I'll put that to WP:OPERA. I'll let you know how I get on. Cheers, -
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Most WP pages are typographically awful, so I don't think numbers mean much here. . . Where in the MoS does it advise against what you call 'jumping' levels. I couldn't see any specific item about this. Can you give me the
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Hi Kleinzach - There is disagreement on the interpretation of BLP and what is a verifiable fact in the discussion of the Kathleen Battle article. It looks like both sides, both differing views have shared their views here
1587:, etc. Do you really want to work in this area? Most of the information for these articles comes from biographies, unless you are just going to do dsiscographies. Do you have access to any books on particular singers? --
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Hi, Kleinzach. Thanks for nominating me. I'm flattered. I've had a read through the discussions, and I'm on the fence about it right now. When I've decided which way to jump, I'll ... jump, I guess. Cheers. --
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I re-did the opera synopsis because it was inclompleate and misleading. The order of events was incorrect, and the character descriptions were wrong in several respects (i.e. since when has Eisenstein been a Baron?)
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Anyway my view is that in general, correcting mistakes is OK for a bot, but making value judgements about the way an article looks is really not what a bot should be doing. I hope I am making myself clear about this.
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However, I've never much liked the simple numbers game, and FAC got rid of it some time ago, instead shifting the emphasis onto the addressing of legitimate shortcomings in relation to the criteria. What about:
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The truth is, despite the above mentioned sources, performance practices generally have Alfred as a professional Singer, not a teacher. So in my opinion, he should be referred to as such in this article.
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Ondine was choreographed by Sir Frederick Ashton as a vehicle to highlight the undoubted talents of British prima ballerina assoluta, Dame Margot Fonteyn.Someone described it as 'a concerto for Fonteyn',
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say that the hierarchy has to be consecutive. There's nothing at all about what you call 'jumping' heading level. Let me give you a friendly suggestion, I think you should contact the
1488:. There are a number of other alternatives but I think we should wait until the sockpuppet case ends (which should be soon) before starting anything. Meanwhile I suggest you draft a
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seriously neend "immediate attention", I guess. I'm also gonna create articles of some Korean opera/concert singers, such as Youn Gwangchul, so...well things to do are a lot...--
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1156:(my italics to show text common to both articles) They refer to the same ballet - with just differences in focus. Why do we need two articles on this ballet? cheers
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lists are done in this way, so I think you should contact them about the pages in general. I think their reasoning is that they are using bold rather than headings
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Ondine is a three act ballet created in 1958 by legendary British choreographer, Sir Frederick Ashton for the Royal Ballet to music composed by Hans Werner Henze.
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Dame Margot Fonteyn.The ballet has been described as a concerto for Fonteyn' and certainly at its first performances most of the attention was concentrated on her
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OK. Let's go with your preferred version. Re the 2, I don't know but if you take it out the text shrinks and the box goes white. Not a nice thing at all. --
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understood statement of your view. In there is too much text and it isn't clearly laid out then you won't get anybody to take an interest in the case. --
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following 'current performance practice' though naturally it can be explained in the article. We are following the composer and the librettist. --
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there to flag up the discussion taking place. If it is the wrong tag then I do, naturally apologise, and will not revert any further, cheers
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Thank you for the help and input. If I did not read your concern about the neutrality matter, I may not edit the article. Thanks again.--
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level even though "american people" is a subcategory of "people". There are ways around that, but again server load would be an issue.
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Could you do me a favor to copy-edit the article since your last proofreading, I've expanded it up to be eligible for DYK requirement.
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Not really, as I said i don't really know enough about the ballet, or people concerned, to put up a serious argument about it. cheers
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a ballet choreographed by Sir Frederick Ashton on Dame Margot Fonteyn to Hans Werner Henze's music with the Royal Ballet (1958)
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This is not an encyclopedia article or the talk page for an encyclopedia article. If you find this page on any site other than
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is probably the best of a bad bunch. If you want to do Wagnerian singers please see the list I made for the Wagner Project at
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1016:. At this stage, the FSC process is not well monitored, so nominations are allowed to run until such a consensus emerges.
993:. At this stage, the FSC process is not well-monitored, so nominations are allowed to run until such a consensus emerges.
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I've drawn up (conversation was getting repeated). Feel free to expand the "Negatives" section as you see fit. Cheers, -
1661:. You may be able to think of some others. Incidentally the German wiki can be a very good source for these articles. --
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It was commissioned and choreographed by Sir Frederick Ashton in 1958 for the Royal Ballet. Ashton made the title rôle
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955:. At the moment, this process is not well monitored, so nominations are allowed to run until a consensus emerges.
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989:(at least two-thirds) are in support; and (ii) has been on this page at least seven days, it may be added to the
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to it on CD in German. (In any case many people will just know the tunes and give up on the plot altogether.) --
391:) that make words appear in boldface are not used in headings. The nesting hierarchy for headings is as follows:
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Perhaps I should answer you here? Yes, it's a style issue. Level 3 can be too prominent for section headings. --
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h3s and so on. Albert Vanloo's html now jumps from h2 to h4, breaking the W3C's accessibility guideline. -
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Kleinzach - This is the user who edited the Fledermaus Summery today (I was unaware I wasn't signed in.)
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1008:(at least two-thirds) are in support; (ii) has addressed all actionable shortcomings in relation to the
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If a nomination (i) has at least three !votes, not including that of the original nominator, of which a
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If a nomination (i) has at least three !votes, not including that of the original nominator, of which a
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which says that there are two articles on the same subject. Then look at the leads on the two article:
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303:(responsible for the happy running of the internet as a whole) advocate the proper nesting of headings
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Undine (also called Ondine) is a three-act ballet with music by the German composer Hans Werner Henze
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I've also proposed merging. So that's not really the issue. What I am objecting to is the merger of
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the work in English (though there are lots of international German-language productions), they will
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Do you have the time and energy to pursue this now? We might propose new (stricter) criteria. --
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Difficult. There are no opera singer articles rated above B class. If you have a look at
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Re historic singes, that's fine. I didn't think you were interested. I was pointing out
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Hi Kleinzach, If you want to know why i reverted the merge tags , look at the dab page:
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and certainly at its first performances most of the attention was concentrated on her.
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Wikipedia_talk:Featured_sound_candidates#Still_very_unhappy_about_the_.21voting_system
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you will find about 20 articles, but the better ones are on historic singers like
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are surely not referring to Wikimedia, are they? They're talking about html.) --
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If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the
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Can you also sign your messages? It's done with four tildes like this ~~~~. --
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the original nomination, has been on this page at least one week, and has a
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Maybe shorter forms? It's worth remembering that while Anglo audiences may
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Sorry not to have replied before. In my view an admin is unlikely to help
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controversial, so please stop running the bot to change headings. --
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they tend to be better than contemporary singer articles. I agree
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I've responded at the VP and Jarry's talk page. I agree with you.
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so there should be no cause for any further disagreement there. --
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this ballet) the reason i replace the merge tag is that it needs
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direct me if you have some to recommend me to read? Thanks.--
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Interested you have a picture by this artist on your page.
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If a nomination is listed here, has at least three votes,
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Would you be willing to (actively) support the merger of
1182:(2200 words/London title/one choreographer only). Surely
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I'm raising the matter of the !voting system at FSC again
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Hmm. Let's look at this (MoS, bullet 7, sub-bullet 2):
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of Ondine (Ashton anglicized the heroine's name) for
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1021:PS What does "2" mean in the quote-box template?
1679:Thanks for the helpful headups. The articles of
529:Both you and Tony are invited to comment on the
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563:Thank you for your time,Ringkichardthethird
1152:rather than just the performance of Fonteyn.
1459:Help! Undestanding and apply BLP guidelines
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1193:? That's the only way it will work. --
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1646:List of article-worthy Wagner singers
173:/ Bots altering headlines hierarchies
1326:Knowledge. Could it be a 'group'? --
1250:? If so we could have a go at it. --
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799:I need your help. Thanks.--
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632:prose a bit unwieldy. --
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1184:Ondine (Ashton)
1180:Ondine (Ashton)
1173:Undine (ballet)
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1080:Undine articles
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1058:Shall do. Thx.
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979:How 'bout this:
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938:Is this OK:
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812:OK. Done. --
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419:, and so on.
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254:etc.). Many
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77:pedia.org/wi
31:
1651:Emily Magee
1559:Emma Albani
1486:as an admin
566:—Preceding
100:This is an
59:mirror site
1567:Jenny Lind
1522:Viva-Verdi
1186:should go
767:so we are
471:====H4====
416:====H4====
162:Archive 30
154:Archive 27
149:Archive 26
143:Archive 25
137:Archive 24
132:Archive 23
124:Archive 20
32:This is a
1689:Kurt Moll
1218:something
1097:see also
945:excluding
535:Jarry1250
476:Jarry1250
363:Jarry1250
309:Jarry1250
231:Jarry1250
194:Jarry1250
180:Jarry1250
1563:Karl Erb
1480:Hrannar
1444:Equendil
1353:JackofOz
1302:Spitzweg
1102:(ballet)
1092:(Ashton)
949:majority
580:contribs
568:unsigned
548:synopsis
465:===H3===
425:actually
410:===H3===
299:and the
1702:Caspian
1618:Caspian
1543:Caspian
1490:clearly
1470:Hrannar
1324:outside
1129:Fonteyn
833:Caspian
802:Caspian
103:archive
1695:, and
1657:, and
1393:Opus33
1148:ballet
1100:Undine
1090:Ondine
1068:(talk)
1031:(talk)
929:(talk)
919:Sure.
862:(talk)
656:listen
592:baron.
520:(talk)
459:==H2==
404:==H2==
335:actual
260:per se
1665:Klein
1591:Klein
1496:Klein
1371:Klein
1330:Klein
1254:Klein
1246:into
1197:Klein
1044:Klein
964:Klein
904:Klein
885:Klein
816:Klein
775:Klein
728:. --
662:Klein
601:Klein
488:Klein
440:Klein
345:Klein
280:Klein
248:"for
209:Klein
67:pedia
53:pedia
38:pedia
16:<
1704:blue
1670:zach
1620:blue
1596:zach
1545:blue
1526:talk
1501:zach
1474:talk
1449:Talk
1420:talk
1412:here
1397:talk
1376:zach
1357:talk
1335:zach
1312:talk
1286:talk
1259:zach
1226:talk
1202:zach
1188:into
1177:into
1162:talk
1134:and
1062:Tony
1049:zach
1025:Tony
969:zach
923:Tony
909:zach
890:zach
881:. --
878:Done
856:Tony
835:blue
821:zach
804:blue
780:zach
749:talk
734:talk
711:talk
691:talk
667:zach
638:talk
622:talk
606:zach
576:talk
544:Re:
514:Tony
493:zach
445:zach
350:zach
307:. -
305:here
297:here
285:zach
214:zach
64:Wiki
50:Wiki
35:Wiki
1637:why
1565:or
1387:Thx
769:not
652:see
531:RfC
468:,
388:'''
360:-->
339:W3C
301:W3C
1691:,
1687:,
1683:,
1653:,
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1367:--
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578:•
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276:--
158:→
128:←
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114:.
83:.
55:,
44:.
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