1211:. Thatâs not good enough and the list should be renamed accordingly. By the same token, even if the actual life stories of the rescuers are most captivating, the missing articles make any attempt at fair coverage impossible. Weâre limited by what we have, which is a hodgepodge of articles already existing. When you say: "I donât think that one nationality or ethnic group deserves mention over another," you depart from the fact that these are not Yad Vashem depositions, but our in-house resources.
384:- with one of its main features being the large table listing the Righteous per their country of origin - with Poland appearing in the first line, Netherlands in the second, France in the third and so on. My intention was to hotlink the existing articles in the same order which I called the order of importance (table only). I was limited by the lack of many such articles as well. That's how I ended up listing
1547:, but cannot agree that the article should be represent the Belgian Righteous. Again, the article concerns a Nazi-operated transport that ran between 1942 and 1944. While one of its 28 runs was attacked by three members of the Belgian resistance, I don't see the argument that this makes it representative of the 1,476 Begian Righteous.
292:. As all appear under the âNotesâ section, it is to the order of the respective nationalities that I assume youâve been referring. Fair enough, though I will point out that âRescue of the Danish Jewsâ is an article about an event and is obviously not an article on Danes recognized as Righteous Among Nations.
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Thus far we have had three opinions on this matter: mine (prefering alphabetical order), yours (ranking according to number of
Righteous) and Species8473 (alphabetical order). I have made a Request for Comment in the hopes of hearing more voices on this matter. Please understand that I consider this
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My thanks for your contribution. After some reflection, it seems to me that a move toward consensus might be made by first recognizing the division already in place. As I understand the intention, after the link to the âMain
Articleâ we have seven links concerning the Righteous according to country,
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so I couldn't list them here. You say, no "one deserves mention before another". That's an arbitrary thought. For example, there were two (2) Righteous in Brazil. If you believe that Brazil ought to be mentioned at the very top of that table in "alphabetical order", why don't you try to convince the
334:
Again, I recognize that what is being compared here are articles on groups individuals, events, a structure, a prisoner transport, Judaism, Christianity and the body responsible for bestowing the title
Righteous Among the Nations. How arrange such a broad spectrum of topics? As it is not possible to
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and kept the entries short, each fitting into one line. The list of selected topics in the third section is organized according to table featured in the main article, as rightfully noted by User:99.242.171.73. Since these where the last working comments with no further objections to this draft from
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and no âalphabetical orderâ is assumed. Perhaps, you would prefer to have this template preformatted with an automatic feature similar to that of the main articleâs table, switching the titles in two different ways on demand? Maybe that would satisfy your sense of fairness? At this point however, a
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for example, is not arranged alphabetically and honestly I don't get the sense of a strong underlying logic in it either. Try to imagine yourself arranging mere twelve articles like a library catalogue, can you? I can't. Your example, the listing of
Righteous "per Country & Ethnic Origin" from
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I do think it incorrect to list according to number of
Righteous. And, yes, I donât think that one nationality or ethnic group deserves mention over another. How to rate such a thing? You suggest according to number of Righteous. Another might suggest that the number saved is more important, but as
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I respectfully submit that our major sticking point does not concern "what is and is not in this template", but the order with which you have placed the nationalities in the final section. As you know I oppose the use of the default setting in determining the order. What you have refered to as the
56:
I suggest, if you like your ideas so much, go to the main article first and move its sections around the way you like them, in alphabetical order. I doubt youâll be able to convince anybody though. And yes, you are âmaking workâ. The
Righteous were usually Christians, however, you have removed the
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As suggested, I placed the articles featured in the first two sections in alphabetical order (see right), while making the
Righteous Among the Nations article as 'Main article'. I also removed Glass House from the list as per earlier comment made by User:99.242.171.73, because its only connection
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on the other hand, is about the rescue of Jews unique in
European history. The rescue is what this template is about, therefore the link is more than justified. Iâm disappointed with User:99.242.171.73 inflexibility and a dogged insistence of her/his own answers for everything. The order of
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states, âThese figures are not necessarily an indication of the actual number of Jews saved in each country, but reflect material on rescue operations made available to Yad Vashem.â A third might suggest that the Dutch be placed first, as a greater percentage of their population has been
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article is set up in such a way that it permits the user to view the
Righteous Among the Nations by country in order of number per state or in alphabetical order (it defaults to the former). While this flexibility is very convenient for the reader, it is in no way reflective of an âorder of
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Anyhow, I included my own proposal to the right which is a working copy reflective of my own sense of limitations, nonetheless, offering a selection of useful internal links. Please take a look, and feel free to change it if my proposal appeals to you at all. I replaced the link to
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when needed. - Like true book editors, we need to make decisions here other than putting everything in alphabetical order. Nobody does it that way in the real world, so please, try to rearrange the links for me here in a way that makes sense to you, but other than alphabetically.
152:
Iâm sorry, but this highly contentious idea of putting everything in alphabetical order made me miss the link to
Christian ethics, which was stuck rather oddly between two disparate countries. I would have never looked for it there. Alphabetical order makes no sense. Please go to
21:
I question the order of articles featured in the template. My own suggestion is that the links be placed in alphabetical order and it was with this in mind that I made my edit. It was never my intention to "make work". I should point out that there was no "removed link".
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As I stated above, renaming "Selected topics" "Nations and groups" is nothing more than a "small suggestion". I base this on the fact that the section concerns "Nations and groups" and the opinion that "Selected topics" could include any related topic, including
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article and see the order there. I did not create this template âout of thin airâ and I donât own it, nor do I want to be constantly forced to go back and deal with unilateral changes. We can discuss the order of remaining links here without edit warring.
217:, which youâve included as âBelgian Twentieth convoyâ. The Twentieth convoy was, in the words of the Knowledge article, âa Jewish prisoner transport in Belgium organized by the Germans during World War IIâ. It was quite obviously not at Belgian transport.
933:, I do not suggest that Christian ethics be dropped. Again, I am aware that Christian ethics guided many of the Righteous, but recognize Species8473 âs observation that the connection is not made readily apparent to those being introduced to the topic.
353:
It was never my intention to edit war â indeed I waited for a response to my initial queries and comments. After 24 hours and no response, I decided to restore the template to alphabetical order. You'll note that I have let your reversion of my edit
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Poeticbent, you write of a âsystemic bias plaguing this discussionâ, I see none. Rather, I see a real effort beng made to reach a consensus. With this goal in mind, might you have a suggestion as to how the template might be reformatted?
480:
members asked to be commemorated as a single unit. Under your âorder of importanceâ, the Danes are ranked 24th, when they might just as well be in the top three. I'm sorry, but I find the whole idea of an "order of importance" rather
1377:, an article on a Nazi-organized and run prisoner transport (which features no mention of the Righteous Among the Nations) be used to represent the Belgian Righteous. On the other side, while I recognize considerable overlap with
32:
I think listing "countries as per number of Righteous" is a bit odd, as if one deserves mention before another. And why is it that Croatians and Norwegians are listed as "Croatian Righteous" and "Norwegian Righteous", instead of
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as you suggest, its use of category divisions could provide an idea as to how one might organize this particular template. I will give the matter some thought. In the meantime, it is my hope that others may contribute to this
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www1.yadvashem.org is convincing only because these are the figures not articles, and still, they are fitted with a disclosure. In fact the same portal offers a collection of active links to pages of interest under the title
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is already featured here under âFamous individualsâ and the second, credited with sheltering one girl from relocation, the proposed new link is redundant. Not everything is meant to fit into a small template. The link to
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community to reformat that table in that order? Or maybe, you'd prefer the table to be deleted since "listing 'countries as per number of Righteous' is a bit odd" according to your initial statement? I don't think so.
1496:'Selected topics' is a basic feature of the main article. The logic of what is and is not in this template is undeniable, therefore the Request for Comment seems like an unnecessary draw on our limited resources. --
192:. Not only is Budapest not a country, the subject of the article is a building. Whatâs more, it is not known as âBudapest Glass Houseâ, but simply Glass House (as is indicated by the actual title of the article:
521:
Nearly a full day has elapsed since my unfulfilled request for a third opinion. I wonder how you might feel if we make a request for comment? Alternatively, we might ask post an informal request for comment at
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That said, in the interest of reaching a consensus, Iâm not opposed to dropping Seven Laws of Noah, nor am I in any way inflexible regarding the inclusion of Christian ethics. Poeticbent, youâll note that in
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is mentioned in the second sentence (ââ⌠to describe non-Jews who risked their lives during the HolocaustâŚââ), and three more times within the text of what is, after all, a fairly short article (472 words).
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because I continue to object strongly to the use of this default ranking in determining an "order of importance". Indeed, I think it pretty clear that Iâve never wavered in this stance, so won't repeat
226:
Youâve suggested that I study the order in the Righteous Among the Nations article. Though I am in no way disputing their presence in the template, I note that the article contains no references to:
557:) editors decide how to arrange them for publishing, be it for a Home Page, a book of collected essays, an annual or a magazine, with the Table of Contents similar to any Knowledge template (i.e.
412:
This is a very quick exchange of notes which resulted in some unfortunate foreshortenings. When I was referring to the order of importance I meant the number of Righteous, and not the hotlinks to
862:, has ânot been removed with numbing repetitiousnessâ. In fact, though Iâve twice been accused of doing so, it has never been removed. Rather, amongst the fourteen posts in this discussion, two
113:
as "order of importance". The template refers to lists and articles on people, organizations, events and religion. While it is difficult to compare one to the other, I don't think it right that
499:
397:
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I think Poeticbentâs decision to include âFamous individualsâ is a good one. My only suggestion is to place Feng Ho between Damaskinos and Lutz â the list is otherwise in alphabetical order.
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is arbitrary (Should we rate by number of Jews saved? Percentage of population involved? Again, I'm sorry but I personally find the idea of providing a ranking for such a thing distasteful.).
491:
389:
405:
401:
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and the overall organization of the template, including the introduction of subheadings. Poeticbent, do you not agree that the template has been vastly improved through this discussion?
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While I'm sorry to learn that you are disappointed in my position, I cannot agree that I have been inflexible. I'll kindly ask you to look again at my opinions on the inclusion of
1540:. After all, the latter repeats much of the information found in the former. I add that the Chinese Righteous Among the Nations article covers both of that nationality's Righteous.
816:(except under See also), but the link to the Holocaust is featured prominently enough in the new proposals from above and for a very good reason of course. However, the link to
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article (as âMain articleâ) first. While I the recognize that the issue of alphabetization has been a sticking point, I do recommend that the first section be so organized (
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When you suggest I look at the âorderâ in the article, I can only assume you mean âCount of the Righteous Among the Nations by countryâ â which, obviously, does not contain
706:(an event) be removed per my comments above, and the fact that they were included only for lack of articles on Belgian, Hungarian and Danish Righteous Among the Nations.
1600:
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1403:
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I don't follow your statement concerning alphabetical order in "the real world"; indices are traditionally presented in this manner. However, while I donât see that
368:
139:
46:
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I think the new template is an improvement over the last. A minor suggestion: would âNations and groupsâ not be a more accurate subheading than âSelected topicsâ?
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most of whom are absent from that list. The so called list is not a list but a sampler with whomever wants to add a new name to it without as much as a stub for
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seems to be improving, the more I think about the coverage of the entire subject, the more doubts I have about the outcome. For example, our article the
502:â â and, as Iâve pointed out, the Glass House article relates to the actions of a single Swiss national (one of 44 Swiss Righteous), not a Hungarian.
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here. I have suggested that alphabetical order be used, an opinion shared by Species8473, who kindly responded to the request for a third opinion.
400:. I wanted to mention at least the first countries listed in that table and admit that I was forced to make a few arbitrary decisions. There's no
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Poeticbent, am I correct in thinking that the links found under the âSelected topicsâ section are organized according to the table in the
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At no point have I suggested that you created this template âout of thin airâ. I have, however, asked after the thinking behind the order.
561:). I'm asking, what kind of alphabetical, historical, numerical or perhaps readibility order would be most user-friendly in such a case?
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followed by a wide-range of articles related to the topic. I suggest that we insert a subheading, and have the two groups trade places.
682:
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1236:
25:
As it is there appears to be no rhyme or reason concerning the overall order. What is described as the "order of importance" places
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I recognize that we remain stuck in our opinions over these matters, and so will ask for help at the relevant WikiProject pages.
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arrange these articles chronologically, I see alphabetical order as the only alternative. I acknowledge that you think otherwise.
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involved editors, I pasted the template into Main Space. Thanks. It looks like the TfD nomination is not going to fly anyway. --
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I'm glad we're communicating and am quite impressed with your analysis. This template is inspired of course by the article
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article begins by describing Righteous Among the Nations â⌠a term used in Judaism to refer to non-Jews who abide by the
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in âorder of importanceâ. Likewise, I donât think an article on a building in Budapest is more important that one on the
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Remove Chrstian ethics from the list, not mentioned in main article. No obvious apparent connection (not for me anyway).
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Make entries short, this will make the list oversightable (it currently is not). Ideally entries should be on one line.
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guidelines. Needless to say, I'm increasingly tired of having to oppose the systemic bias plaguing this discussion. --
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Seperate into three groups: 1) general items, 2) specific groups and events per country, 3) monuments and memorials.
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recognized. Furthermore, if we rely on count to determine âorder of importanceâ where do we place the Danes, whose
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I concluded my previous post by asking whether the order of the final section is based on the table included in
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is being removed with numbing repetitiousness even though the Righteous themselves, to use the rationale of
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There exists disagreement concerning the order of Righteous Among the Nations by country, the inclusion of
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title, eleventh. Again, given the range of topics, I think the links are best placed in alphabetical order.
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Similarly, I suggest that articles in the first section be placed in alphabetical order, while making the
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While I recognize that the actions of many Christian Righteous were guided by their faiths, I acknowledge
553:âIn the real worldâ, when dealing with a collection of articles written around the same subject (i.e. the
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confers no such thing and provides no list according to count, rather their statistical list is presented
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1536:. On this topic, I wonder whether it might be better to simply add the article, while removing that on
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I look forward to your response to my queries and observations, and hope for input from third-parties.
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article. According to that article, people that do not follow the Jewish religion, but do live by the
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and so on. I have no problem listing the Holocaust right under the main article if that is justified.
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twice already, which is highly disruptive. Please stop. Christian ethics were guiding the Righteous --
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For the record. There's no mention of "the Righteous" even once in the (157 kilobytes long) article
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I recognize that you created the template, so wonder if you'd explain how you came up with what
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in lieu of an article on the Belgian Righteous Among the Nations, and the absence of a link to
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313:. As Iâve written above, I donât think it correct that these articles have been placed above
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732:âs observation that there is no mention of the Righteous (nor Jews, nor The Holocaust) in
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however is quite extensive already and in my opinion should only be supplemented with the
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891:; in fact, out of all the articles featured in the template, it appears in only one, the
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matter important and, therefore, not an "unnecessary draw on our limited resources".
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and others found at the beginning of the template. Again, this is a minor suggestion.
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has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at
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I understand that a third opinion might be of value and so will post a request.
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In my defense, this is the first time you have explained your exclusion of the
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whose thousands of members requested that they be recognized as a single unit;
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already mentioned in section 'Individuals'. I followed the suggestion made by
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1467:. The discussion begins under "Order" and continues under "My proposal".
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is a collection of arbitrarily selected names out of 22,211 men and women
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from the list as you've now twice accused me of doing. In both my edits
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I think the template has been greatly improved, keep up the good work!
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new request for an impartial comment would probably be a good idea. --
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as it's linked to as that in the template we are discussing. Both the
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I hope I can help you two with a third opinion. Sorry it took long ;)
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indeed never did. All he did was giving it another place in the list
887:. Likewise, Christian ethics is not mentioned in the "Main article",
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I suggest the template might be reorganized in the following manner:
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Again, the Christian ethics article features not one mention of
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as a single unit (per their request). For obvious reasons, the
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appears twelfth of thirteen, nor do I see the sense in placing
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being removed from the article, I have checked the diffs, and
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doesnât fall between âtwo disparate countriesâ, but between
895:(and even then it is not in relation to actions during the
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On related matters, I continue to think it incorrect that
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the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page
736:. For this reason, I suggest this link also be dropped.
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The issue of nationality is also raised by the link to
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is flawed in that it does not take into account the
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Will monitor this page for any comments. Greetings,
196:). Finally, the connection the article has with the
1486:is written about just two individuals, one of whom
1303:with the main subject of the template rested with
715:be added as its members have been recognized by
1202:List of Righteous among the Nations by country
240:List of Righteous Among the Nations by country
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1527:Rescuers assisting Jews during the Holocaust
1261:Rescuers assisting Jews during the Holocaust
757:Rescuers assisting Jews during the Holocaust
244:Rescuers assisting Jews during the Holocaust
858:Letâs set the record straight, the link to
828:along the lines of their own religious and
200:(not mentioned in the article), rests with
92:Christian ethics is listed fourth (between
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931:the analysis with which you were impressed
824:, had "no obvious apparent connection" to
498:can in no way fill in for a ânonexistent
538:falls. Do let me know what you think.
1543:I'm not against the inclusion of the
500:Hungarian Righteous Among the Nations
398:Hungarian Righteous Among the Nations
311:Norwegian Righteous Among the Nations
286:Norwegian Righteous Among the Nations
39:Norwegian Righteous Among the Nations
1381:, I believe that the article on the
532:Knowledge:WikiProject Jewish History
307:Croatian Righteous Among the Nations
282:Croatian Righteous Among the Nations
190:Croatian Righteous Among the Nations
98:Croatian Righteous Among the Nations
35:Croatian Righteous Among the Nations
1534:Chinese Righteous Among the Nations
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1465:Chinese Righteous Among the Nations
1383:Chinese Righteous Among the Nations
721:Chinese Righteous Among the Nations
492:Belgian Righteous Among the Nations
390:Belgian Righteous Among the Nations
180:When placed in alphabetical order,
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406:French Righteous Among the Nations
402:Danish Righteous Among the Nations
303:Polish Righteous Among the Nations
278:Polish Righteous Among the Nations
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121:, which, after all, bestows the
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1358:the reasons behind my opinion
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711:I suggest that a link to the
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524:Knowledge:WikiProject Judaism
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511:should be supplemented by
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1408:16:33, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
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1237:20:09, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
1034:17:39, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
957:14:24, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
899:, nor in conjuction with
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804:21:30, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
704:Rescue of the Danish Jews
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585:02:09, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
548:20:01, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
534:under the scope of which
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144:00:45, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
75:22:58, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
51:19:30, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
1219:with a more appropriate
903:). Further to this, the
644:Belgian Twentieth Convoy
301:This leaves us with the
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1071:Rescuers assisting Jews
997:are referred to in the
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633:Groups and events (abc)
396:instead of nonexistent
388:instead of nonexistent
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977:I actually meant that
700:Glass House (Budapest)
563:Template:The Holocaust
509:Template:The Holocaust
496:Glass House (Budapest)
426:Template:The Holocaust
394:Glass House (Budapest)
232:Glass House (Budapest)
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29:twelfth of thirteen!
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457:importanceâ. Indeed,
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486:I cannot agree that
276:This leaves us with
186:Budapest Glass House
94:Budapest Glass House
1455:Request for comment
1385:should be included.
1152:Norwegian Righteous
1089:Famous individuals
866:that it be dropped.
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650:Norwegian Righteous
568:On-line Exhibitions
204:, a Swiss diplomat.
1556:Seven Laws of Noah
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1056:among the Nations
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778:Chinese Righteous
702:(a building) and
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452:The table in the
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72:
57:internal link to
1616:
1552:Christian ethics
1545:Twentieth convoy
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1217:Christian ethics
1196:Even though the
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1144:Twentieth convoy
1140:Polish Righteous
1129:Selected topics
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1011:Christian ethics
979:Christian ethics
860:Christian ethics
842:
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822:User:Species8473
818:Christian ethics
790:Polish Righteous
734:Christian ethics
696:Twentieth convoy
653:Polish Righteous
638:List per country
581:
578:
488:Twentieth convoy
443:
440:
386:Twentieth convoy
236:Christian ethics
228:Twentieth convoy
215:Twentieth convoy
182:Christian ethics
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111:you've described
85:Christian ethics
83:I never removed
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68:
59:Christian ethics
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1432:. Thank you. â
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597:My suggestion:
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1209:verifiability
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914:
913:The Holocaust
911:âŚâ Likewise,
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494:â. Likewise,
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44:
43:99.242.171.73
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36:
30:
28:
27:The Holocaust
23:
1538:Feng-Shan Ho
1498:
1488:Feng-Shan Ho
1458:
1437:
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1379:Feng-Shan Ho
1314:
1253:Main article
1225:
1213:
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987:main article
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481:distasteful.
435:
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379:
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31:
24:
20:
1165:This box:
1046:My proposal
1026:Species8473
730:Species8473
675:Species8473
666:Glass House
516:discussion.
478:Underground
1577:Yad Vashem
1499:Poeticbent
1315:Poeticbent
1273:Yad Vashem
1226:Poeticbent
1223:. Cheers,
1122:Wallenberg
1096:Damaskinos
1083:Yad Vashem
1054:Righteous
835:Poeticbent
763:Yad Vashem
717:Yad Vashem
669:Yad Vashem
574:Poeticbent
473:Yad Vashem
459:Yad Vashem
436:Poeticbent
418:Yad Vashem
319:Yad Vashem
261:Yad Vashem
161:Poeticbent
119:Yad Vashem
64:Poeticbent
1438:Wiki11790
1305:Carl Lutz
1284:article?
1112:Schindler
1009:. And on
995:holocaust
864:recommend
414:Holocaust
202:Carl Lutz
612:Example:
1116:Sendler
1102:Feng Ho
830:ethical
747:General
617:General
354:stand.
288:, and
263:, and
242:, and
1444:talk
973:With
17:Order
1601:talk
1505:talk
1473:talk
1404:talk
1321:talk
1290:talk
1232:talk
1185:edit
1178:talk
1171:view
1106:Lutz
1030:talk
993:and
953:talk
881:Jews
841:talk
800:talk
679:talk
580:talk
544:talk
530:and
442:talk
392:and
369:talk
317:and
309:and
188:and
167:talk
140:talk
96:and
70:talk
47:talk
37:and
883:or
1603:)
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1275:).
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1255:.
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433:--
420:,
416:,
371:)
305:,
284:,
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238:,
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158:--
142:)
49:)
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