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level? If so, nationality is regarded as the country that he/she most recently appeared for; if not, nationality is recorded as place of birth. Areas of controversy remain: we are inconsistent as to whether place of birth is as at birth or presently (A player born in the mid 80s in
Bratislava was born in Czechoslovakia: is he Czechoslovakian? His father would be recorded as such); the child born in what was obviously a temporary place of residence of his parents may not wish to be associated with his place of birth as an adult, and may not even be entitled to citizenship there.
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1989:, I am happy to change the text to something that others think is better. It's unfortunate that it's protected so that the process is more drawn-out and personality-dependent. I'm also about to go to sleep, so you may want to involve another template editor. I do want there to be consensus and I don't want the protection level to keep the community from having the best option for what this caption should be. Ping me to let me know how I can help. ―
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2302:}}{{#if:{{{ref|}}}|{{{ref}}} }} {| border="0" width="100%" |- | style="background-color:#FFFFFF;vertical-align:top;"| {| class="wikitable football-squad {{{class|nogrid}}}" style="display:inline-table;" |+{{{squad|{{{team|}}}}}} {{#if:{{{nonumber|}}}|| ! style="{{#if:{{{color|}}}|color:#{{{color}}}}}; {{#if:{{{bg|}}}|background:#{{{bg}}}}}" scope="col" {{!}} <abbr title="Number": -->
2101:, I am not quite sure I am really getting you. What is the problem with that accessibility? Everyone knows what they are looking at with this particular template. Paradoxically, you are doing the exact opposite of "accessibility" as the header is completely misleading on certain pages and there is no meaningful, universal text that would fit them all as I proved above. –
1972:, It is still completely pointless to have "Squad roster" in the template. User always knows that he is looking at a squad roster as the section itself is usually called "Squad" or something similar. Moreover, this template is also used, for example, for summary of transfers -- and that is not really a squad roster. –
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has, without discussion, reverted my restoration of the longtime consensus version of this template on accessibility grounds. This template is used in 15,125 articles and should not be subject to this sort of rapid change. Koavf, please engage in a discussion here. The change to the template does not
1565:
Which would seem simple enough, but then we have those born in a place which would not be considered their native land because their mother was there temporarily (we could imagine a team listing including Cruz
Beckham in years to come, for example), changes in national boundaries (the man born in
1401:
Are we to assume that your suggestion is that a picture of each player goes into the temple? Total non-starter: not encyclopaedic, enormous number of players have no free image of decent quality, certainly no uniformity of pic layouts, and to make the template of reasonable proportions, the pic
789:
There is not. The imprecise nature of nationality designation has lead many of us to seek removal of this from the template, but it has not gained consensus. To determine "sporting nationality" there are two stages of question: has the individual played national representative football, at any
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Czechoslovakia in 1989 can't have a
Czechoslovakian flag in 2011: is the determinant of being Czech or Slovak now a matter of place of birth or ethnicity), and in some parts of the world (the Balkans are the most obvious), ethnicity can be far more descriptive of identity than place of birth.
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The complexity of the issue (and the lack of relevance of nationality to a player's place in a squad) is such that many of us have suggested that we shouldn't show nationality at all, or at least not for players without representative history, but that has never gained consensus.
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on your part but it sounds like you're saying that we should forgo accessibility to other users because you have some mild annoyance. I sincerely hope that is not what you are suggesting and I want to work with you here on how to make this template maximally accessible and useful.
1501:
While this link is more appropriate, it does not address the point that the header is deeply flawed. FIFA does not define anyone's nationality, FIFA regulations can allow for a player to have numerous potential representative nationalities, there is no such thing as a
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Make a proposed change in the template's sandbox, see how it looks on the testcases page, and get feedback from interested editors. That is the best way to make changes to a widely used template such as this one if your initial attempt meets significant resistance. –
808:. After some debate, an editor was able to provide me with a WP policy that verified the third editor's position, but I still feel that the flags' intent is very misleading and should be explicit that it reflects the national team for which the footballer plays.
1908:
look good at all. At a minimum, the template's additional header should have bold formatting and a colored background to match the column headings. Please make changes in the template's sandbox to make the formatting look better, and discuss those changes here. –
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Please re-add {{documentation|Template:football squad player/doc}}. This was an uncontroverisal element of the edit performed by MSGJ, reverted by Number57 on the wider issue of how to display nationalilty. This change will ensure that the documentation from
2310:! style="{{#if:{{{color|}}}|color:#{{{color}}}}}; {{#if:{{{bg|}}}|background:#{{{bg}}}}}" scope="col" {{!}} Nation}} ! style="{{#if:{{{color|}}}|color:#{{{color}}}}}; {{#if:{{{bg|}}}|background:#{{{bg}}}}}" scope="col" {{!}} Player}}<noinclude: -->
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And that policy is what I stated here. I have instigated many attempts to get the header comment about flags re-phrased so that it makes sense, but no phrase has gained consensus. Please do weigh in with suggestions at WT:FOOTY.
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and the mobile version because it implements a table for visual purposes (and also because it splits the tables in two). I suggest to someone who can actually test all the test cases to at least transfer the table wrapping to
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consensus on this style. Templates afterall are used to maintain consistency between articles and therefore should be consistent between similar style and use templates, if there has not been a discussion to change this.
2150:, the template was stable for over five years. This is not an emergency. I agree with you that accessibility needs to be addressed. Please make proposed changes in the sandbox for discussion. There is a discussion
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Nevertheless, the current header is simply meaningless: FIFA's rules do not define any one from multiple eligibilities that a player might have, and the concept of a non-FIFA nationality is, at best, novel.
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1555:(Following on from TheDJ's invitation to discuss above) It has been discussed at WT:FOOTY several times, but the multiplicity of proposals has stifled any conclusion. Basically the flag is determined by:
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In the
Android Knowledge app (at least on my Moto X), the nationality flags are not displayed, instead it only shows a minimum-width column with dots instead of flags. On other team sport templates (eg.
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is so unclear as to be effectively meaningless, and besides, there are surely a significant number opf players with dual (as opposed to the triple/quadruple/quintuple... inferred here) nationality.
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2049:, Yes, it is necessary. Did you read the link I provided above? Accessibility is not some afterthought annoyance for those of us who may not immediately need the caption. Please also see the
1929:. I have made the caption bold per your request but I'm not sure what you have in mind for the coloring. For those of you who want to understand more about table captions, please see
1520:
Link changed, since it seemed appropriate. No opinion about further FIFA nationality specifics that might have to be addressed, but please do discuss if you think they are needed. —
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Many players are eligible for more than one team; FIFA does not define the sporting nationality of such players until they have played in a competitive international. The phrase
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1506:, the header does not describe our criteria for determining the flag to be posted, and the vast majority of players have a flag the indicates (assumed) place of birth.
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No problem (the testcases page wasn't using the sandbox version of start/mid for some reason), plus my comment was really for the original proposer anyway. Cheers,
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It was add at the top per the discussion above which suggested it be better here than at fs end, the "<span class="flagicon" style="padding-left:50px;": -->
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161:. Substantial changes should first be proposed and discussed here on this page. If the proposal is uncontroversial or has been discussed and is supported by
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2307:! style="{{#if:{{{color|}}}|color:#{{{color}}}}}; {{#if:{{{bg|}}}|background:#{{{bg}}}}}" scope="col" {{!}} Player {{#if:{{{nonat|}}}||<nowiki /: -->
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Can someone bring back the blue color in the header because it was more preferred and the modification in August 2020 was done without discussion?--
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Ron, could you please reduce the column width back down to 1%? Changing it to 15% wreaked havoc with the implementation of the template. –
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Flags indicate national team as has been defined under FIFA eligibility rules. Players may hold more than one non-FIFA nationality.
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that may be useful. Also please keep in mind that any changes made to this template may also affect how it looks when used with
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Perhaps a discussion would help clarify the reason for that edit, since there was no edit summary or link to a discussion. –
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It was changed as per request, the result what you get. Although you cannot edit, you can view the source to see the changes.
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I've undone this as it creates a huge gap between the two parts of the squadlist on screens. Please test things like this in
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Note: Flags indicate national team as defined under ]. Players may hold more than one non-FIFA nationality.</small: -->
1657:) that have nationality flags, they have ] at the top of the nationality column and the flags show up without a problem.
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169:}} to notify an administrator or template editor to make the requested edit. Any contributor may edit the template's
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Guédé was born in
Germany, but took out Slovakian citizenship after living in that country for 5 years </ref: -->
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on the outer table should also be uncontroversial, it doesn’t do anything other than removing the table semantics.
2511:, and since the change was made over 18 months ago, there should probably be a discussion to change it back with a
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Squaddieson was born in
Germany to English parents, who were working there at the time of his birth </ref: -->
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2032:- as I mentioned earlier, the section itself is clearly and obviously Squad, no need to put any header there. –
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Would there be any objection to adding ] to the header to ensure the flags are displayed across all platforms?
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most recent national team represented, at any level, with only nations recognised by FIFA considered eligible.
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I would like to undo the latest revision by user Koavf. The "squad roster" looks totally awkward everywhere.
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Sorry. I did actually test this in the sandbox, but the gaps didn't appear in my browser for some reason.
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It's a sticky wicket, that's for sure. The reason I asked was related to the Mehmet Ekici discussion at
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Has this change worked? I don't see the footnote on the
Watford page that I thought was being added.
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It would appear that the change was made after multiple discussions referring to the merger between
592:. And just a friendly reminder that the occasional "please" or "thank you" won't go amiss! — Martin
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Unless there is evidence for representation or place of birth, flag column should be left blank.
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most recently represented, or place of birth where this is not applicable, or as otherwise stated.
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OK Back to 1% it is (and I took out the "<span class="flagicon" style="padding-left:50px;": -->
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on
Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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Knowledge:Manual_of_Style/Accessibility/Data_tables_tutorial#Proper_table_captions_and_summaries
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Agree, the caption is not needed as this is used under a "Squad/Current squad/roster" section.
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Is there a means by which we can address dual-nationality for a player and assign two flags?
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I'm suggesting this because I see many player lists of clubs are so closely packed together.
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would need to be no more than 30px, which is so small faces may be scarcely recognisable.
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2119:, this does not improve "accessibility" when the text is meaningless on many articles.
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Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Football#Football_squad_template_.26_FIFA_eligibility_rules
2185:, Accessibility is not an afterthought: this needs to have a caption for the table. ―
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https://en.wikipedia.org/List_of_Slovak_football_transfers_winter_2019%E2%80%9320
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2024:, Is it really necessary to have any text there? Look at this, for instance -
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2311:|} {{documentation|Template:football squad player/doc}} </noinclude: -->
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because otherwise, the template documentation displays inside the table.
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place of birth (again, using FIFA registered determinants of nationality)
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I had already done this earlier today, forgot to disable the request. —
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Please change link in note text from "] eligibility rules" to "]". --
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To be honest, I don't understand why this was added here and not to
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Template talk:Football squad player § Add postion Field Player (FP)
1609:{{Fs player | no=19 | nat=SVK | pos=MF | name= ]|other=<ref: -->
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In addition, you could, in theory, fix the mobile issue by adding
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I hope you agree it is completely ridiculous there. Also here -
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or (real one here, whose current flag does not follow our rules)
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is displayed here, rather than creating three duplicate pages.
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Bonus question, should we add a link to "Position" so it is ]?
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355:", that followed it - maybe test the new template in future?
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which does the same thing while displaying more accessibly.
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Currently, one accessibility issue can be fixed by adding
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want more CON and that will be a long time coming. Thanks
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1601:{{fs player|no=7|nat=ENG|pos=MF|name=]|other=<ref: -->
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Sorry my bad. Thanks very much didn't mean to be rude.
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please make another template for transfer of players --
866:. Players may hold more than one non-FIFA nationality.
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Any exceptions to this should be explained using the
175:. Functionality of the template can be checked using
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Additionally, the template code needs an additional
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Note: Flags indicate national team as defined under
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Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Football#Just_to_be_clear
98:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
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2424:
Template-protected edit request on 18 February 2022
2061:. I don't want to put words in your mouth and I'm
1933:: this is a high-priority accessibility concern. ―
1831:Template-protected edit request on 1 February 2020
464:Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Football#Squad_template
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2051:Wikimedia Foundation statement on accessibility
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2531:Problems with accessibility and mobile version
2301:Squad correct as of {{{date}}}.</small: -->
2030:https://en.wikipedia.org/Arsenal_F.C.#Players
2621:I have implemented the table-closing part (
857:Edit request from Afifhaikal, 30 April 2011
644:Can you revert this change please. It seem
2535:This table currently has huge issues with
715:Please can you also do the same thing on
514:Current text simply does not ho;d water:
32:does not require a rating on Knowledge's
462:, allows the user to hide the note per
159:heavily used or highly visible template
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2306:{{#if:{{{natlast|}}}|<nowiki /: -->
2309:{{#if:{{{nonat|}}}||<nowiki /: -->
2298:{{#if:{{{hidenote|}}}||<small: -->
242:to properly split the documentation.
92:This template is within the scope of
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38:It is of interest to the following
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1825:04:28, 4 September 2018 (UTC)
1799:Add postion Field Player (FP)
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278:01:09, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
251:17:40, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
147:Template:Football squad start
115:Template:WikiProject Football
106:and see a list of open tasks.
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218:14:17, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
7:
2579:to reactivate your request.
2567:has been answered. Set the
2454:to reactivate your request.
2442:has been answered. Set the
2288:to reactivate your request.
2276:has been answered. Set the
2115:I've restored the page per
1861:to reactivate your request.
1849:has been answered. Set the
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1450:to reactivate your request.
1438:has been answered. Set the
87:Association football portal
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1625:09:36, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
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564:in a month. Discussion
167:edit template-protected
2506:Football squad player2
864:FIFA eligibility rules
2625:) of this request. –
2496:Football squad player
2360:) before requesting.
2356:to see their effect (
623:No worries. — Martin
2166:Arsenal F.C.#Players
1666:It would end up as:
1638:. They all display "
1504:non-FIFA nationality
520:non-FIFA nationality
300:User:Gnevin/sandbox4
165:, editors may use {{
100:Association football
95:WikiProject Football
2640:role="presentation"
2609:</noinclude: -->
2587:role="presentation"
2063:assuming good faith
1551:Proposal for header
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836:Will do. Thanks.
552:User:Gnevin/sandbox
460:User:Gnevin/sandbox
2305:Pos.</abbr: -->
2294:Edit suggestion:
1770:John Q. Footballer
1717:John Q. Footballer
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34:content assessment
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2489:Not done for now:
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2303:No.</abbr: -->
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1479:for rationale. --
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725:? Regards, --
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2258:width="100%"
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151:permanently
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93:
40:WikiProjects
29:
2354:the sandbox
1817:Enterprisey
1724:instead of
1420:link change
545:editprotect
453:editprotect
294:editprotect
2684:Categories
2663:* Pppery *
2569:|answered=
2444:|answered=
2383:* Pppery *
2340:* Pppery *
2278:|answered=
2121:S.A. Julio
1851:|answered=
1440:|answered=
672:. Thanks,
374:WFCforLife
274:Wartenberg
223:Split docs
178:test cases
2627:Jonesey95
2545:Col-begin
2513:WP:SILENT
2358:testcases
2220:Jonesey95
2183:Jonesey95
2170:Jonesey95
1966:Jonesey95
1923:Jonesey95
1910:Jonesey95
1892:Jonesey95
1809:Moved to
1739:Position
1641:(captain)
1617:Kevin McE
1508:Kevin McE
1404:Kevin McE
840:Erikeltic
824:Kevin McE
812:Erikeltic
792:Kevin McE
779:Erikeltic
752:— Martin
524:Kevin McE
163:consensus
153:protected
2519:Terasail
2316:ChampsRT
2187:Justin (
2068:Justin (
1991:Justin (
1935:Justin (
1786:Num1dgen
1685:Position
1579:Proposal
1534:contribs
504:contribs
210:Bo yaser
204:Transfer
109:Football
59:Football
30:template
1742:Player
1689:Player
1207:Rafshan
999:Ridzuan
892:Player
889:Nation
679:Symonds
240:sandbox
172:sandbox
2661:that.
2607:after
2599:there.
2501:&
2398:Number
2363:Number
2159:fs mid
2135:Kante4
2117:Penepi
2103:Penepi
2057:, and
2047:Penepi
2034:Penepi
1987:Penepi
1974:Penepi
1927:Penepi
1869:Penepi
1597:field
1486:Oranje
1463:Oranje
1347:Hazman
1241:Haikal
1173:Shafiq
1105:Daniel
1071:Luqman
1037:Syahmi
720:fs mid
650:Gnevin
646:WP:BAG
611:Gnevin
569:Gnevin
537:Change
467:Gnevin
428:Gnevin
408:fs end
394:jones
363:jones
333:jones
303:Gnevin
36:scale.
2573:|ans=
2563:This
2470:Sakiv
2462:Sakiv
2448:|ans=
2438:This
2282:|ans=
2272:This
2148:Koavf
2099:Koavf
2022:Koavf
1970:Koavf
1905:Koavf
1855:|ans=
1845:This
1821:talk!
1595:other
1444:|ans=
1434:This
1309:Ammar
923:Hakim
676:Peter
28:This
2658:Done
2644:stjn
2631:talk
2613:stjn
2474:talk
2466:talk
2336:Done
2320:talk
2224:talk
2174:talk
2168:. –
2152:here
2139:talk
2125:talk
2107:talk
2038:talk
1978:talk
1914:talk
1896:talk
1888:Done
1873:talk
1790:talk
1734:No.
1676:No.
1621:talk
1530:talk
1512:talk
1483:Club
1460:Club
1408:talk
1290:MID
1275:Azri
1222:MID
1188:MID
1154:MID
1139:Adam
1120:MID
1086:MID
1052:MID
961:Aqil
885:Pos.
828:talk
796:talk
760:talk
756:MSGJ
749:Done
685:talk
669:Done
654:talk
631:talk
627:MSGJ
615:talk
600:talk
596:MSGJ
589:Done
573:talk
566:here
528:talk
500:talk
487:Done
471:talk
432:talk
413:. –
378:talk
323:Done
307:talk
269:Jake
263:Done
248:talk
214:talk
2571:or
2446:or
2280:or
1853:or
1680:Nat
1644:."
1442:or
1381:Adi
1374:MAS
1362:ST
1359:14
1340:MAS
1321:13
1302:MAS
1287:12
1268:MAS
1256:ST
1253:11
1234:MAS
1219:10
1200:MAS
1185:09
1166:MAS
1151:08
1132:MAS
1117:07
1098:MAS
1083:06
1064:MAS
1049:05
1030:MAS
1011:04
992:MAS
973:03
954:MAS
935:02
916:MAS
897:01
880:No.
735:--
418:Jay
415:Pee
390:Ron
359:Ron
347:Jay
344:Pee
329:Ron
149:is
2686::
2633:)
2605:|}
2593:.
2591:{|
2577:no
2548:}}
2542:{{
2509:}}
2503:{{
2499:}}
2493:{{
2476:)
2452:no
2322:)
2286:no
2226:)
2193:vf
2189:ko
2176:)
2162:}}
2156:{{
2141:)
2127:)
2109:)
2074:vf
2070:ko
2053:,
2040:)
1997:vf
1993:ko
1980:)
1968:,
1941:vf
1937:ko
1916:)
1898:)
1875:)
1859:no
1823:)
1814:–
1792:)
1752:GK
1747:1
1699:GK
1694:1
1623:)
1611:}}
1603:}}
1536:)
1532:•
1526:DJ
1522:Th
1514:)
1448:no
1410:)
1326:DF
1016:DF
978:DF
940:DF
902:GK
830:)
798:)
758:·
723:}}
717:{{
703:}}
699:{{
656:)
629:·
617:)
598:·
575:)
562:}}
556:{{
548:}}
542:{{
530:)
506:)
502:•
496:DJ
492:Th
473:)
456:}}
450:{{
434:)
411:}}
405:{{
380:)
309:)
296:}}
292:{{
266:—
246:-
234:}}
228:{{
216:)
181:.
2629:(
2472:(
2464:(
2408:7
2403:5
2373:7
2368:5
2318:(
2222:(
2210:☯
2208:M
2206:☺
2204:C
2202:☮
2200:T
2198:❤
2195:)
2191:a
2172:(
2137:(
2123:(
2105:(
2091:☯
2089:M
2087:☺
2085:C
2083:☮
2081:T
2079:❤
2076:)
2072:a
2066:―
2036:(
2014:☯
2012:M
2010:☺
2008:C
2006:☮
2004:T
2002:❤
1999:)
1995:a
1976:(
1958:☯
1956:M
1954:☺
1952:C
1950:☮
1948:T
1946:❤
1943:)
1939:a
1912:(
1894:(
1871:(
1819:(
1788:(
1765:]
1712:]
1619:(
1528:(
1524:e
1510:(
1406:(
826:(
794:(
762:)
754:(
733:C
730:F
727:W
688:)
682:(
652:(
633:)
625:(
613:(
602:)
594:(
571:(
526:(
498:(
494:e
469:(
430:(
392:h
376:(
361:h
331:h
305:(
212:(
42::
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