Talk:Penghu - Knowledge

1561:, mostly written by myself. Despite warnings from other contributors, Gumuhua has made substantial edits to this article, replacing 'the Pescadores' by 'Penghu' wherever it occurs; removing all Wade Giles romanisation from the article (my practice in the case of articles dealing with Taiwan has been to give all names in Wade Giles, followed by the pinyin version and the Chinese characters in brackets); and removing the initial capitals from names of nationalities (so that French, Chinese, British become french, chinese, british). I have reverted the article to its original state while my report is being considered, but anybody interested can check the extent of the changes made by consulting the article's recent history. 1684:

students in the whole country (since they dont use bopomofo anymore), students of chinese overseas and soon, the government of Taiwan (the policy of the Ma administration is clear). I just find stupid to write 2 or even more romanization systems, cause i consider it confuses readers of the article... The wikipedia site doesnt use "Ching, but Qing, not Peking but Beijing, and so on... I dont have the figures, but i think most of the articles related to china r romanized using hanyu pinyin (Guangdong, Guangzhou, etc).. That still doesnt apply to Taipei or Pingtung, but, again, the policy of Ma is clear... Starting to use Hanyu pinyin next year.

211: 659: 244: 1427:

but until and unless the world's English-language atlases follow suit, they should remain the Pescadores for the purposes of the Knowledge project. Or we will have to start referring to Vienna as Wien, Munich as München, and so on. I have no objection to adding the gloss (Penghu, 澎湖) after the first reference to the Pescadores in an English-language Knowledge article, but I see no reason why we should break with the tradition of ages that place names are given in their commonly-accepted English form.

265: 649: 628: 354: 562: 544: 572: 1584:

What does that prove? We know that the Taiwanese prefer to call the islands Penghu. But that isn't the point. As I said earlier, the main criterion should be the attitude of authoritative English-language atlases and encyclopedias, who have their own policies for deciding on whether place names deserve changing. I do not believe that Knowledge should be used as a channel for pushing controversial nationalist viewpoints.

202: 275: 1849:? They're marked on Garnot's map of the campaign which illustrates the article. I've looked at a couple of old Japanese maps of the Pescadores, but haven't so far been able to identify either village. I visited the nearby villages a couple of years ago, but none of the villagers could identify them either. Doubtless the names were changed by the Japanese ... 1887:

than 300 years drops out of use. Most of the other 'colonial' placenames in Taiwan (e.g. Mount Morrison) date only from the nineteenth century. The Pescadores, like the name Formosa for Taiwan, goes back at least to the seventeenth century and possibly to the sixteenth, and is a fine name that evokes the spirit of the era of the European voyages of discovery.

3386: 975:. This debate mostly turned on whether "Penghu" or "Pescadores" is more common in English. The editors opposed to this move seem to be saying that the two are about equal, but also acknowledge that use of "Penghu" is growing, and will be the most common name soon. Given that, it seems pointless to put off this move until then.-- 3391: 3523:

There's always the link through for people who are genuinely confused as to what the Republic of China is (they should learn already), but I've got no problem with glossing it as Taiwan... once. We shouldn't have both names through the entire article. Do it one time as "Republic of China (Taiwan)" in

3348:

As for the Dutch depredations along the coast of Fukien in the 1 620's and early 1630's, the 'Red-haired barbarians' were effectively chased away and in 1633 soundly beaten at Liaolo by the legendary smuggler- turned-admiral, Zheng Zhilong. After that humiliation the Dutch in Taiwan were dependent on

2236:

I don't think we should wait much longer on this. We've given plenty of time for those opposed to the merger to provide a reliable source suggesting that "Pescadores" is more common than "Penghu" and so far we have nothing. Meanwhile we have a the Google searches plus Encyclopedia Britannica saying

1852:

I looked in some atlases (I thought I would remember their names, but I only remember "Hammond" at the moment) on sale in B&N this weekend. The search was inconclusive. Both Pescadores and Penghu were used together. Based on this and the overwhelming results from the Google searches, I have to

1625:

Before we get to that question, we first need some support for your arguments. You have once again suggested that English-language atlases and encyclopedias use "Pescadores" rather than "Penghu" without saying specifically which atlases and encyclopedias. Before we consider that argument we need to

1530:

It occurred to me that a way to check contemporary usage at in non-Taiwanese sources would be to check non-Taiwanese news sources. I didn't find anything for either Penghu or the Pescadores at washingtonpost.com, but I found 13 hits for Penghu and zero hits for Pescadores at reuters.com. Ap.org had

1514:

Bringing up the examples of "Peking to beijing, bombay to mumbai, madras to chennai" isn't helping. Those are separate cases. We are concerned with current usage of "Pescadores" vs "Penghu". Whether one is older or newer is irrelevant. Frequency of English usage, particularly by reliable sources,

1456:

in their own article, so they are not always called Pescadores in English. On the other hand the same Encyclopædia keeps them naming Pescadores in articles about Taiwan, Strait of Taiwan and Treaty of Shimonoseki. Maybe there is a movement towards the usage of Penghu in that encyclopædia and will the

1904:

Presumably the name change will be done in such a way that typing in 'Pescadores' will get a direction to the article. And I would hope that the name 'Pescadores' is given a high profile in the introductory paragraph, as there will be a number of history enthusiasts who have heard of the Pescadores

1583:

Further to the views I expressed earlier on the main issue, I am not sure whether comparing the frequency with which Penghu and the Pescadores appear on the Internet is an appropriate measure. Sure, there are lots of mentions of Penghu, but I bet that nearly all of them are from Taiwanese sources.

1401:

The ROC will start using Hanyu Pinyin as the only romanization system starting next year (since 01-01-2009), well.. Penghu is pinyin. I think romanizing all chinese names to Pinyin (which, by the way, is the policy applied to the Chinese Mainland articles) would add coherence to all articles related

1140:

The naming policy says we should use the more common English name. So we need to figure out if there is clear evidence that Penghu is more common. The naming policy also say we shouldn't change the name of a long established article without a really good reason. So if our investigation results in

1406:

Some of you reasons are good, others not so good. But I do think that overall the evidence so far is pointing toward a name change. However I still ask that you wait. Changing the name of an article that has been around without modification for along time is not a trivial action. Waiting a week

1043:

I don't have a strong opinion on this, but I will note that a Google search on "Pescadores" came up with 5.5 million hits while a Google search on "Penghu" only returned less than half that amount (2.3 million hits). So I believe your assertion that "Penghu" has more internet entries is incorrect.

896:

states, "Knowledge works by building consensus. This is done through polite discussion and negotiation, in an attempt to develop a consensus. If we find that a particular consensus happens often, we write it down as a guideline, to save people the time having to discuss the same principles over and

3615:

The Chinese version of this page says that the main island is called 澎湖本島, i.e., "Penghu Island" or "Penghu Main Island", but the English page indicates that the island is called "Magong Island" or "Magong City/Huxi Township" (which is kind of nonsensical). Seems likely that "Penghu Island" is the

1886:

I think it's becoming clear that we are in a messy stage of transition at present, and that both names are in common use. No doubt Penghu will win out eventually, as virtually nobody outside Taiwan really cares what the islands are called; though it's always sad when a name with a history of more

1621:

You may be right that most of the sources that use "Penghu" are Taiwanese people using English. However, it may that most of the time when the islands are being talked about in English, they are being talked about by Taiwanese. That presents an interesting question about usage: Should we choose

1426:

move. The islands are called the Pescadores Islands in English. All authoritative atlases so name them. It is quite irrelevant at present that certain interests in Taiwan wish to call them Penghu. That's fine in Chinese, and the Taiwanese media can of course call the islands whatever they want,

3387:

https://books.google.com/books?id=3hsYAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA322&lpg=PA322&dq=pescadores+dutch+defeat&source=bl&ots=yHu2kgdZri&sig=0D27FziOgvS7OWxP8i6UlhcLPXg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=zhirVKbmNcrYggTps4LQDg&ved=0CEoQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=pescadores%20dutch%20defeat&f=false

2339:

My understanding is that the term "Penghu" usually refers to the entire group of islands. If not, then perhaps we erred in renaming this article and should have kept the "Pescadores" article for island group and created a "Penghu" article for the single island. For now, there doesn't seem to be

2333:

Few if any people will look for "Penghu County". If you think this administrative division is important enough as an entity separate from the place "Penghu" then create a separate article. Otherwise simply make a redirect that points "Penghu County" to the "Penghu" article. (Using Taipei as an

1683:

Wades Giles aint official anymore (when has it been official?) Currently the ROC uses Tongyong Pinyin, but it will be replaced in 2 weeks by the most common romanization system today... Hanyu Pinyin, used among other institutions by the UN, the Library of Congress, the chinese government to teach

1491:

Flickr, fotki results aint taiwanese media... Please, cite the Britannica edition year.. Somebody said about Vienn to Wienn.. K, what about Peking to beijing, bombay to mumbai, madras to chennai? (the last 3 examples r changes already made and accepted in the english media... just google it, read

1471:

In favor of changing the name, we have repeatable Google searches. In favor of keeping the name, we have some statements like "All authoritative atlases so name them" and "Knowledge should follow usage in main English-language reference works like atlasses and encyclopædias". Unfortunately only

1058:

Another data point: Adding "Taiwan" to the search put "Penghu Taiwan" in the lead with 1.8 million hits versus "Pescadores Taiwan"'s 228 thousand hits. I put the "Taiwan" in to avoid other places that might be called "Pescadores". Based on this I have to put "Penghu" back in the lead as the more

1783:

On the question of renaming the Pescadores, you have to look beyond the narrow Taiwanese context and consider how these islands are identified in the atlases, encyclopedias and standard reference books of the English-speaking world. My impression is that, at present, the Pescadores is still the

3392:

https://books.google.com/books?id=-xZBAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA86&lpg=PA86&dq=pescadores+dutch+defeat&source=bl&ots=BwECPINQ7-&sig=XaYenXy5DbmQ-_6wLwHTDSEbyVw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=zhirVKbmNcrYggTps4LQDg&ved=0CEMQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=pescadores%20dutch%20defeat&f=false

1130:

Appreciate, i was mistaken about the google searches... should we move "Cimei, Penghu" to "Cimei, Pescadores"? Should we also move "Mumbai" to "Bombay"? or "Chennai" to "Madras", maybe "Beijing" to "Peking"? If u agree to keep naming the article "Pescadores", we should rename any article named

2358:

We won't really have an issue here. As far as I know, the County includes all and only the islands of the Penghu archipelago. We'll have the freedom of writing about both in the same article. As far as I can see, the article is fine, it talks of both the county and the islands, in fact its

1574:'s arguments for changing the name to Penghu, but it is, I think, revealing. We seem to be dealing here with a contributor who is determined to push his own, controversial, viewpoint regardless of opposition, and who is too impatient to wait for the conclusion of discussion on this issue. 1773:

Wade Giles (Please include for subjects which were notable before the introduction of pinyin, and especially for those which existed before 1910; English references to them will exist using Wade-Giles only, and these are very difficult to look up unless the WG transcriptions are

1926:, but I feel very strongly that the traditional name Pescadores should remain in a historical article of this kind. It would be utterly anachronistic to talk of the 'Penghu campaign'. The article is most likely to be consulted by readers who have come across the term 818:

The article gives "pescadores" as the Portugese word for "fishermen"; I know that that is true in Spanish as well. It makes enough sense that a colonial power would have named an island like this, but I just wanted to make sure we know that it's Portugal and not Spain.

1074:

It occurred to me that the "Penghu" hits might include a lot of non-English, or that the result might be biased by a tendency of people who use "Taiwan" to prefer "Penghu" while people who use "Formosa" to use "Pescadores" so I tried some additional searches:

1992:

As for the rename of Pescadores to Penghu from the historical perspective, I have a lot of sympathy for history, I like "Bombay" a lot better than "Mumbai" and I wish "Constantinople" were still "Constantinople", but the Knowledge standard doesn't care about

3450: 3490: 3368: 3363: 3485: 3464: 3434: 3429: 3419: 3414: 3404: 3495: 3480: 3459: 3424: 3409: 3399: 3396: 1905:(invaded successively by the Dutch in the seventeenth century and the French and the Japanese in the nineteenth) but who will not recognise the name Penghu. It might be sensible, indeed, to give the article the title 'Penghu (Pescadores Islands)'. 2296: 3332: 3327: 3337: 1788:, the world's most authoritative English-language history of China. Its index entry for Taiwan reads 'Taiwan (台灣), Formosa', and its index entry for the Pescadores reads 'Pescadores'. It also has the entry 'P'eng-hu tao (澎湖島), 373: 1001:

My reasons: we dont talk about "formosa", but "taiwan", we seldom use the colonial power name. Official name of the county is penghu, even wikitravel uses penghu, penghu has more internet entries than pescadores islands

3572:"Taiwan is part of the sacred territory of the People's Republic of China. It is the inviolable duty of all Chinese people, including our compatriots in Taiwan, to accomplish the great task of reunifying the motherland." 1822:

you're looking at? Also, while there is disagreement about the present term, we all agree that Pescadores was the common term at some point in the past. A book on history might be biased in favor of historical terms.

2304:

Plus: wikipedia clearly differentiates between, among others: "Taipei" (city) and "Taipei County", "Taichung" (city) and "Taichung County", "Gaoxiong" (city) and "Gaoxiong County"... Shouldnt we follow that rule too?

3451:

https://books.google.com/books?id=CBOpWiyl4NsC&pg=PA241&dq=pescadores+dutch+defeat&hl=en&sa=X&ei=FfK2VLipO8KlgwTEi4CwDA&ved=0CEUQ6AEwCTgU#v=onepage&q=pescadores%20dutch%20defeat&f=false

3491:

https://books.google.com/books?id=SP0mBQAAQBAJ&pg=PT57&dq=pescadores+dutch+defeat&hl=en&sa=X&ei=FfK2VLipO8KlgwTEi4CwDA&ved=0CBkQ6AEwATgU#v=onepage&q=pescadores%20dutch%20defeat&f=false

3369:

https://books.google.com/books?id=JWpF-dObxW8C&pg=PA1086&dq=pescadores+dutch+defeat&hl=en&sa=X&ei=R-y2VI3TG8S4ggS3oIL4DA&ved=0CBkQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=pescadores%20dutch%20defeat&f=false

3364:

https://books.google.com/books?id=xrGAXH_ne4IC&pg=PA1086&dq=pescadores+dutch+defeat&hl=en&sa=X&ei=R-y2VI3TG8S4ggS3oIL4DA&ved=0CBQQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=pescadores%20dutch%20defeat&f=false

3486:

https://books.google.com/books?id=tyhT9SZRLS8C&pg=PA722&dq=pescadores+dutch+defeat&hl=en&sa=X&ei=4vW2VPCgKMOkNuSDhKgB&ved=0CBoQ6AEwATge#v=onepage&q=pescadores%20dutch%20defeat&f=false

3465:

https://books.google.com/books?id=a2_GQpLPPl8C&pg=PT329&dq=pescadores+dutch+defeat&hl=en&sa=X&ei=R-y2VI3TG8S4ggS3oIL4DA&ved=0CC4Q6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=pescadores%20dutch%20defeat&f=false

3435:

https://books.google.com/books?id=MneIergR2d4C&pg=PA188&dq=pescadores+dutch+defeat&hl=en&sa=X&ei=4vW2VPCgKMOkNuSDhKgB&ved=0CCwQ6AEwBDge#v=onepage&q=pescadores%20dutch%20defeat&f=false

3430:

https://books.google.com/books?id=sH2O-GvvnYMC&pg=PA146&dq=pescadores+dutch+defeat&hl=en&sa=X&ei=WvG2VNWBHMGcNpKqgZgG&ved=0CDQQ6AEwBjgK#v=onepage&q=pescadores%20dutch%20defeat&f=false

3420:

https://books.google.com/books?id=OpdMq-YJoeoC&pg=PA384&dq=pescadores+dutch+defeat&hl=en&sa=X&ei=R-y2VI3TG8S4ggS3oIL4DA&ved=0CEQQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=pescadores%20dutch%20defeat&f=false

3415:

https://books.google.com/books?id=MSGvAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA110&dq=pescadores+dutch+defeat&hl=en&sa=X&ei=R-y2VI3TG8S4ggS3oIL4DA&ved=0CDkQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=pescadores%20dutch%20defeat&f=false

3405:

https://books.google.com/books?id=PpkvBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA122&dq=pescadores+dutch+defeat&hl=en&sa=X&ei=R-y2VI3TG8S4ggS3oIL4DA&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=pescadores%20dutch%20defeat&f=false

3496:

https://books.google.com/books?id=Avn_-bMQZ5MC&pg=PT43&dq=pescadores+dutch+defeat&hl=en&sa=X&ei=WvG2VNWBHMGcNpKqgZgG&ved=0CDkQ6AEwBzgK#v=onepage&q=pescadores%20dutch%20defeat&f=false

3481:

https://books.google.com/books?id=ctLGAAAAQBAJ&pg=PA27&dq=pescadores+dutch+defeat&hl=en&sa=X&ei=WvG2VNWBHMGcNpKqgZgG&ved=0CBoQ6AEwATgK#v=onepage&q=pescadores%20dutch%20defeat&f=false

3460:

https://books.google.com/books?id=g3oWoSKVnVIC&pg=PA95&dq=pescadores+dutch+defeat&hl=en&sa=X&ei=R-y2VI3TG8S4ggS3oIL4DA&ved=0CCgQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=pescadores%20dutch%20defeat&f=false

3425:

https://books.google.com/books?id=yjXJOFEIIMkC&pg=PA79&dq=pescadores+dutch+defeat&hl=en&sa=X&ei=WvG2VNWBHMGcNpKqgZgG&ved=0CCQQ6AEwAzgK#v=onepage&q=pescadores%20dutch%20defeat&f=false

3410:

https://books.google.com/books?id=n8Hn4yAfztUC&pg=PA43&dq=pescadores+dutch+defeat&hl=en&sa=X&ei=R-y2VI3TG8S4ggS3oIL4DA&ved=0CD4Q6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=pescadores%20dutch%20defeat&f=false

3400:

https://books.google.com/books?id=41nitLmBk0YC&pg=PA24&dq=pescadores+dutch+defeat&hl=en&sa=X&ei=R-y2VI3TG8S4ggS3oIL4DA&ved=0CCIQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=pescadores%20dutch%20defeat&f=false

3397:

https://books.google.com/books?id=41nitLmBk0YC&pg=PA24&dq=pescadores+dutch+defeat&hl=en&sa=X&ei=bBmrVPSHJIzUgwTS5YOQBQ&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=pescadores%20dutch%20defeat&f=false

3442: 1447:

I agree with User:Djwilms, the English Knowledge should follow usage in main English-language reference works like atlasses and encyclopædias and not English language media on Taiwan only. However, in the

164: 3333:

http://books.google.com/books?id=aNBWudWBOsQC&pg=PA362&dq=1633+zheng+dutch&hl=en&sa=X&ei=w6y7UteUHsjlsASdwYLYCQ&ved=0CFsQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=1633%20zheng%20dutch&f=false

3328:

http://books.google.com/books?id=TV6f2XWG6t4C&pg=PA122&dq=1633+zheng+dutch&hl=en&sa=X&ei=w6y7UteUHsjlsASdwYLYCQ&ved=0CC8Q6wEwAA#v=onepage&q=1633%20zheng%20dutch&f=false

900:

Now, if there is a compelling reason to use the blue box in this particular article, then state it here. No comment means you do not have a opinion, in which case, I am the only one with an opinion.--

858:

In the introduction it is said that the county flower is the chrysanthemum, and on the right box the Firewheel is pointed as the county flower, which I think is the case, seeing the official website:

3342: 3338:

http://books.google.com/books?id=zERymZzBQQYC&pg=PA71&dq=1633+zheng+dutch&hl=en&sa=X&ei=w6y7UteUHsjlsASdwYLYCQ&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=1633%20zheng%20dutch&f=false

1515:

is what matters. So far we have strong evidence for "Penghu" from our Google searches. Strong evidence for "Pescadores" based on reliable encyclopedic sources has been mentioned, but not provided.

1135:

Today "Beijing" is definitely more common than "Peking". I'm less sure about "Mumbai" and "Bombay" but that is for the editors on that page to decide. I know nothing about "Chennai" and "Madras".

3475: 3470: 810:

While Beijing has refrained thus far from public criticism of the report, no one should be under any illusion that it will sit on its hands while Washington tinkers with the one-China policy.

774:

To give legal basis to this claim, the 1951 San Francisco Peace Treaty with Japan merely committed the latter to surrendering Taiwan but did not specify to whom the island was to be returned.

1960:

I concur almost exactly with this point of view; although the problems with a double name (believe it or not, editors will fight over order in such constructs) make me prefer to keep

2770:

Leyden Studies in Sinology: Papers Presented at the Conference Held in Celebration of the Fiftieth Anniversary of the Sinological Institute of Leyden University, December 8-12, 1980

771:

Seeing Taiwan's value as an 'unsinkable aircraft carrier', a famous characterisation by General Douglas MacArthur, the US began to say that 'the status of Taiwan was undetermined'.

2325: 3443:

https://books.google.com/books?id=qI2wAAAAIAAJ&q=pescadores+dutch+defeat&dq=pescadores+dutch+defeat&hl=en&sa=X&ei=4vW2VPCgKMOkNuSDhKgB&ved=0CEsQ6AEwCTge

1714: 3610: 488: 3205: 3155: 3093: 2975: 2927: 2879: 2839: 2768: 2728: 2678: 2608: 2560: 2495: 2445: 2384: 1922:

I have included references to the name Penghu (mainly under its Wade Giles alias, P'eng-hu, but with the pinyin and Chinese characters also given up front) in my article

3616:

correct name, but it's hard to find anything authoritative for this. Can anyone find and add a source clarifying what each island, especially the big one, is called?

3621: 1698: 1667: 2376: 2237:"Penghu" is the term to use. If we don't get some reliable sources or good evidence for keeping "Pescadores" within a couple days, I will proceed with the rename. 1629:

Unfortunately, I'm unable to think of a way to modify the Google searches to distinguish between Taiwanese sources and other sources. Do you have any suggestions?

3570:

The question is I was wondering, with Penghu (aka Pescadores) still part of the ROC, is Penghu claimed by the PRC? We know the constitution of the PRC states that

3343:

http://books.google.com/books?id=4JluAAAAMAAJ&q=1633+zheng+dutch&dq=1633+zheng+dutch&hl=en&sa=X&ei=8q67UtD4CNPJsQSUsYHAAQ&ved=0CEAQ6AEwBDgU

827:

A cursory glance at an History book tells you where were the Portuguese and the Castillian back in the early 1500ies: Taiwan was very much in the Portuguese zone.

807:

Thus, from the Chinese point of view, the USCC report calling for an end to the 'one-China policy' is but another attempt to deny Chinese sovereignty over Taiwan.

1818:

If I find myself in a bookstore within the next few days I'll try to look at the atlases they have there. In the meantime, what is the publication date for the

910:

I'd suggest modifying the county infobox itself so that the pronunciation information could be presented inline there, rather than breaking up the lead sentence.

215: 446: 158: 3691: 2217:), where the English name is very well known indeed; it gives the local official name. That is not in question; the question is whether English has adopted it. 3476:

https://books.google.com/books?id=MBhbAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA37&dq=pescadores+dutch+defeat&hl=en&sa=X&ei=WvG2VNWBHMGcNpKqgZgG&ved=0CC8Q6AEwBTgK

3471:

https://books.google.com/books?id=e4b6qndkk08C&pg=PA30&dq=pescadores+dutch+defeat&hl=en&sa=X&ei=WvG2VNWBHMGcNpKqgZgG&ved=0CCkQ6AEwBDgK

1531:

5 hits for Pescadores, only 2 of which appeared to be related to Taiwan, while for Penghu ap.org had 45 hits, with 9 of the first 10 being related to Taiwan.

1247:

So I favour the move, because, contrary to what happens if u google "pescadores", if u google "penghu", all the results are cleary related to the archipelago

752: 1618:'s behavior, and I agree that it has not been the best, you are correct that it doesn't affect the merits of the arguments for and against the name change. 1310:

The following is a copy of a map i have about taiwan (i have the 1994 edition)... It shows the archipelago as "Penghu" (By the was, it shows "Magong" too)

942: 880:

The blue box is ugly and not needed, especially since there is already a county infobox occupying the same space. Please do not add it without consensus.--

828: 2977:

Twentieth century impressions of Hongkong, Shanghai, and other treaty ports of China: their history, people, commerce, industries, and resources, Volume 1

2061:

Glad to know that the topic is still being debated: I just looked the "Encyclopaedia Britannica" 2007 edition (online article), and guess what?? It shows

1112:

At this point the Google results are heavily favoring "Penghu". Does anyone see any possible systemic problems with my search terms that I've overlooked?

432: 1845:

P.S. Incidentally, do you happen to know the Chinese characters for the villages known to the French as 'Kisambo' and 'Amo', which featured in the 1885

1710: 795:

Despite the Nixon pledge, the 1979 Joint Communique establishing formal diplomatic relations was crafted in a way to give the US room for backpedalling.

2000:

article should remain unchanged unless it becomes clear that it is no longer called the "Pescadores Campaign", which seems doubtful. We don't refer to

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The Dutch were driven out from the Pescadores by Ming chinese forces in the 1620's, several Dutch raids were defeated and Dutch sailors taken as POWs.

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It said that 'the Administration acknowledged the Chinese position that Taiwan is part of China, but the US has not itself agreed to this position'.

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the word most English speakers would use to describe the islands, or should we choose the word that is most frequently used to describe the islands?

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Despite this deliberate attempt to deny Chinese sovereignty over Taiwan, former US President Richard Nixon pledged to China in no uncertain terms:

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Penghu is the name of the main island of the archipelago, what if somebody chooses to create the "Penghu" (island, the main island only) article?

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the move. We use the most common English names for WP article titles... K. According to what I have just googled, I have to deny my previous post:

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because they deal with military campaigns fought decades before the invention of pinyin. The Knowledge guideline on this subject is quite clear:

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It looks like you are changing all the links without getting a consensus. Please pause and give others a chance to respond to your suggestion.

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The Chinese name for the flower is translated in several ways. The best translation is 'immortals' as it is closest to the local Penghu name.

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Some spanish-portuguese lexicon: "pescadores" means in both spanish and portuguese "fishermen".. If u r thinkin about considering the search:

1200:

According to Google searches, Penghu is far more common. According atlases on sale at the bookstore, both Penghu and Pescadores are common.

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My google searches suggests "Penghu" is more common. Can you support your contention that "Pescadores" is the more common English name?

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for responses is not too much to ask. You proposed the name change on the 11th. How about waiting until the 18th to make the change?

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In that document, the US said that 'it acknowledges the Chinese position that there is but one China and Taiwan is a part of China'.

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has chosen to use the name that it believes the reader will be most familiar with: Taiwan, not Formosa; and Pescadores, not Penghu.

739: 2229: 845: 3731: 3711: 3686: 3518: 914: 705: 3560: 2773:. Vol. Volume 15 of Sinica Leidensia. Contributor Rijksuniversiteit te Leiden. Sinologisch instituut (illustrated ed.). BRILL. 425: 399: 2662:

Association for Asian Studies. Ming Biographical History Project Committee (1976). Goodrich, Luther Carrington; 房, 兆楹 (eds.).

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basically organised as a County article. We can keep the name 'Penghu' to generalise between both the County and islands.

2161: 1985: 3736: 3537: 3027: 3022: 3017: 2668:. Association for Asian Studies. Ming Biographical History Project Committee (illustrated ed.). Columbia University Press. 2663: 2080:

is not a reliable source? Id say its the most academic ecyclopedia on earth, and the most reliable english encyclopedia...

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established in English. This shouldn't take long; the BBC went over in 2001. For comparison, the nationalist campaign for

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currently states that it is up to the editors of each article to decide whether to use the box (and not the blue box).

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sufficient content or interest to justify having two separate articles for thethe island group and the single island.

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Penghu flickr entries (effectively related to the archipelago): 53,806 results Pescadores islands flickr entries: 816

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example, the "Taipei" article covers the city and typing "Taipei City" redirects the user to the "Taipei" article.

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favoured term. I don't have many reference works with me at present in the office, but I've just checked out the

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Im sorry, but i wanna express my hapiness over the move... (Britannica uses Penghu, BBC uses penghu...) :)

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Encyclopedia Britannica is mentioned by name. What specific sources use "Pescadores"? Can we have a list?

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This amounted to a repudiation of US treaty obligation as spelt out in the Cairo and Potsdam instruments.

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It is clear from this memo that prior to the Korean War, the US accepted Chinese sovereignty over Taiwan.

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which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —

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Mercenaries, Pirates, and Sovereigns: State-Building and Extraterritorial Violence in Early Modern Europe

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As the basis to affirm that "Pescadores" is more common than "Penghu", well, thats not correct, because

140: 3316: 1439: 1275: 1022: 865: 467: 3210:. Contributors John Cranmer-Byng, Willard J. Peterson, Jr, John W. Witek. Cambridge University Press. 1540: 1250:

Again, Im gonna ask for coherence: Taiwan - Penghu or Formosa - Pescadores (FAVOURING THE 1ST CHOICE)

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http://www.chinapost.com.tw/travel/taiwan%20offshore/penghu/2007/05/10/109295/Penghu:-Taiwan%27s.htm

755: 3297: 3271:. Contributor Koninklijk Instituut voor Taal-, Land- en Volkenkunde (Netherlands). M. Nijhoff. 1989 3244: 3194: 3132: 3006: 2966: 2918: 2870: 2818: 2806: 2759: 2719: 2654: 2599: 2534: 2484: 2434: 2422: 516: 136: 3068:

http://books.google.com/books?id=OrzVYrtMXrAC&pg=PA25&lpg=PA25#v=onepage&q&f=false

2213:, which discusses Geonet. It does not look for English usage, except for a handful of cases (like 1292:"The amazing basalt columns in the Penghu archipelago" september 2008 (pro blue) (Not pescadores) 680:

on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join

593:

on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join

296:

on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join

3657: 3579: 3548: 3358: 2198: 1503: 936: 904: 884: 789:

This declaration is there in the declassified documents of his historic trip to Beijing in 1972.

786:'There will be no more statements made to the effect that the status of Taiwan is undetermined.' 120: 3309: 3256: 3144: 2830: 1264:

WTO has its own section about the Republic of China (Taiwan): its official name in the body is:

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the goodwill of the Zheng clan, until their final expulsion from Formosa by Zheng Chenggong in

1327:(Again I insist: "Pescadores" is not a valid search, because most of those results are, again 768:

But the fighting that broke out in the Korean peninsula in June 1950 changed the US attitude.

186: 3630: 3353: 853: 230: 1321:

Most of the google entries favour "Penghu", most of the flickr entries favour "Penghu" too:

3552: 3529: 2309: 2273: 2225: 2190: 2157: 2124: 2043: 1981: 1690: 1659: 1495: 1290:

http://www.chinapost.com.tw/travel/taiwan-offshore/penghu/2008/09/25/176193/The-amazing.htm

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The US Congress later elaborated on this in the Taiwan Enabling Act Report, March 1, 1979.

481: 2707: 1304:(as on 11-2008) (pro green newspaper) "Penghu provides marine life boost", Not Pescadores 8: 1997: 1923: 1846: 1761: 1558: 1170: 979: 893: 836:

A cursory glance would miss out on the Philippines but, yes, it's from the Portuguese. —

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http://books.google.com/books?id=xrGAXH_ne4IC&pg=PA1086#v=onepage&q&f=false

3023:

http://books.google.com/books?id=JWpF-dObxW8C&pg=PA1087#v=onepage&q&f=false

3018:

http://books.google.com/books?id=JWpF-dObxW8C&pg=PA1086#v=onepage&q&f=false

2993: 2953: 2905: 2857: 2841:

China, Her History, Diplomacy, and Commerce: From the Earliest Times to the Present Day

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That doesnt answer any of my questions, manderson... im not gonna re-type em again...

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http://books.google.com/books?id=tQI_AQAAIAAJ&pg=PA817#v=onepage&q&f=false

3048:

http://books.google.com/books?id=ddcV_cGegX4C&pg=PA191#v=onepage&q&f=false

3043:

http://books.google.com/books?id=tVhvh6ibLJcC&pg=PA369#v=onepage&q&f=false

3038:

http://books.google.com/books?id=tVhvh6ibLJcC&pg=PA368#v=onepage&q&f=false

2553:

http://books.google.com/books?id=gbU8AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA658#v=onepage&q&f=false

2548:

http://books.google.com/books?id=7W93v4C30JUC&pg=PA132#v=onepage&q&f=false

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http://books.google.com/books?id=GXBCAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA92#v=onepage&q&f=false

3058:

http://books.google.com/books?id=g3oWoSKVnVIC&pg=PA49#v=onepage&q&f=false

3053:

http://books.google.com/books?id=dogeAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA93#v=onepage&q&f=false

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http://books.google.com/books?id=oaP2UFZVGDoC&pg=PA70#v=onepage&q&f=false

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http://books.google.com/books?id=EvylnkgJ9ycC&pg=PA39#v=onepage&q&f=false

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u know, the guys who go fishing. (most of those pages r in one of those 2 languages)

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Pentecost of the Hills in Taiwan: The Christian Faith Among the Original Inhabitants

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infobox and then leave the others as Taiwan or Republic of China as appropriate. —

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The Cambridge History of China: Volume 8, The Ming Dynasty, Part 2; Parts 1368-1644

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The disputes about which romanization to use, how to name things, etc. aren't new.

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I have to agree with u, though Id like it to be renamed... If we still talk about

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This aggressive and impolite behaviour should not of course affect the merits of

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Can anyone think of other ways we might check to see which usage is more common?

3207:

China and Maritime Europe, 1500–1800: Trade, Settlement, Diplomacy, and Missions

2389:. Vol. Volume 4 of The New Cambridge Modern History (reprint ed.). CUP Archive. 3598: 3268:

Bijdragen tot de taal-, land- en volkenkunde van Nederlandsch-Indië, Volume 145

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Sorry for so much bold, but I want to make sure the naming poicy gets noticed.

1142: 976: 577: 509: 398:. To help assess the quality and importance of geography articles, please see: 1372: 374:

Requested articles/Social sciences/Geography, cities, regions and named places

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I think the parties to this discussion need to be aware that I have reported

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Matters of Exchange: Commerce, Medicine, and Science in the Dutch Golden Age

2004:

as "Beijing Man" just because the city name has changed. We don't call the

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Amoy and the Surrounding Districts: Compiled from Chinese and Other Records

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was the established name a decade ago; until it is clear that the new name

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The fact that u mostly wrote the article doesnt mean only u can edit it...

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Penghu: 290 Pescadores islands: 73 (some of them about pescadores in cebu)

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Knowledge:Manual of Style (use of Chinese language)#Romanization and tones

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Ask the ppl in Penghu how do they refer to the place where they live...

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Call to discuss the possible relocation of "Penghu" to "Penghu County"

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http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2008/11/23/2003429315

1131:"Taiwan" to "Formosa", otherwise it would be inconsistent (I think). 293: 1276:

http://www.wto.org/english/theWTO_e/countries_e/chinese_taipei_e.htm

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over. Normally consensus is reached via discussion on talk pages."

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Bit on the early history of these islands through Chinese sources

2881:

Statecraft and Political Economy on the Taiwan Frontier, 1600-1800

2065:(not romanized in pinyin, but WG), and, guess what too? If u type 1165:

move. We use the most common English names for WP article titles.

783:'Principle One: There is one China, and Taiwan is part of China. 571: 1392: 732: 2610:

Maritime Sector, Institutions, and Sea Power of Premodern China

1973: 972: 941:

Firewheel, or chrysantemum? The page, as of today, gives both.

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And on searching, I don't find Penghu; but that's a detail.

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aint authoritative english atlases... Both shows "Penghu"..

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Needs a map with authoritative names of the various islands

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a tie, then the name "Pescadores" will have to stay. See

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I don't agree that it is a question of older vs newer.

1853:

throw support behind renaming the article to "Penghu".

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Twitchett, Denis C.; Mote, Frederick W., eds. (1998).

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The Decline of Spain and the Thirty Years War, 1609-59

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Media in taiwan refer to the archipelago as "Penghu":

1242:

most of those results r related to, well, "fishermen",

171: 1976:

made it official in 1996, and it is now established.

2258:

Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

1687:Erasing the capitals was my mistake... I apologize 1402:

to the 2 countries that are "Republic(s) of China".

1329:

related to fishermen in both spanish and portuguese)

964:

Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

676:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of 654: 589:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of 567: 489:

Geography articles with topics of unclear notability

292:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of 270: 26: 1711:

Knowledge:Manual of Style (use of Chinese language)

1339:Penghu islands: 39687 Pescadores islands: 0 (zero) 792:However, American words were not matched by deeds. 1380:http://www.phhcc.gov.tw/en/03_community/03_1_1.htm 1366:http://www.penghu-nsa.gov.tw/user/main.aspx?lang=2 890:Knowledge:Manual of Style (China-related articles) 751:Would someone please include a map of the islands? 2665:Dictionary of Ming Biography, 1368-1644, Volume 2 2252:The above discussion is preserved as an archive. 2073:page... wow... (yup, not an established name...) 3663: 2974:Wright, Arnold (1908). Cartwright, H. A. (ed.). 44:for general discussion of the article's subject. 2613:(illustrated ed.). Greenwood Publishing Group. 2091:are not reliable maps... Please, supporters of 1314:http://conf.ncku.edu.tw/actsea/image/TAIWAN.JPG 3595:Knowledge:Articles for deletion/Penghu Islands 2884:(illustrated ed.). Stanford University Press. 2377:Sino-dutch war in the pescadores in the 1620's 447:Articles missing geocoordinate data by country 3692:Knowledge level-5 vital articles in Geography 2925: 1226:Pescadores islands: 724.000 entries (google) 967:A summary of the conclusions reached follows. 185: 3638:I am de-orphaning articles, and just linked 1747:I am not French, as it happens, but English. 1457:other articles be rewritten in due course?? 1359:http://www.penghu.gov.tw/eng/00home/home.asp 2980:. Lloyds Greater Britain publishing company 2500:(reprint ed.). Princeton University Press. 2183:http://geonames.usgs.gov/foreign/index.html 1373:http://tour.penghu.gov.tw/English/index.asp 3505:There is a move discussion in progress on 3098:. Translated by William W. Wang. 五洲传播出版社. 2565:(illustrated ed.). Hope Publishing House. 361:Here are some tasks awaiting attention: 3203: 2152:is the natural term used by anglophones. 1229:Penghu islands: 187.000 entries (google) 503:Knowledge requested photographs of places 2877: 2447:Straits of Malacca: Gateway or Gauntlet? 740:Knowledge:WikiProject Taiwanese counties 2493: 2443: 1756:I have used Wade Giles in the articles 1237:Pescadores: 4.860.000 entries (google) 761:Political Development of the Pescadores 433:Geographic related deletion discussions 199: 14: 3664: 2973: 2837: 2558: 2382: 2117:is the "established" (as u say) name? 2022:It's not just history, though. Unlike 1492:newspapers...) We aint in the 1970's 958:The following discussion is archived. 3682:Knowledge vital articles in Geography 2766: 404:Unknown-importance geography articles 3543:Sources for future article expansion 3153: 2606: 2148:We will, when it becomes clear that 2113:Err... how and who will decide when 670:This article is within the scope of 583:This article is within the scope of 461:Geography articles needing infoboxes 419:Geography articles needing attention 390:Tag related article talk pages with 286:This article is within the scope of 195: 3697:C-Class vital articles in Geography 3650:this is the place being described. 3574:and it possibly extends to Penghu. 2838:Parker, Edward Harper, ed. (1917). 2038:established, we should not switch. 1223:Penghu: 2.020.000 entries (google) 1087:"formosa pescadores islands" 72,400 229:It is of interest to the following 34:for discussing improvements to the 24: 1792:Pescadores)'. In both cases, the 1709:Please both of you take a look at 1084:"formosa pescadores island" 64,300 1081:"taiwan pescadores islands" 19,600 25: 3748: 3707:Low-importance geography articles 3091: 2727:George Hughes (of Amoy.) (1872). 1102:"formosa penghu island" 1,300,000 1078:"taiwan pescadores island" 78,500 343:WikiProject Geography To-do list: 3677:Knowledge level-5 vital articles 1269:Taiwan, Penghu, Kinmen and Matsu 1105:"formosa penghu islands" 145,000 1096:"taiwan penghu island" 1,400,000 657: 647: 626: 570: 560: 542: 378:Missing articles about Locations 352: 273: 263: 242: 209: 200: 56:Click here to start a new topic. 3601:recently split from this one. 3519:Current edit war: ROC on Taiwan 2767:Idema, Wilt Lukas, ed. (1981). 2450:. McGill-Queen's Press - MQUP. 2179:U.S. Board on Geographic Names 1280:I dont see pescadores there... 1099:"taiwan penghu islands" 171,000 710:This article has been rated as 326:This article has been rated as 306:Knowledge:WikiProject Geography 3732:Mid-importance Taiwan articles 3712:WikiProject Geography articles 3687:C-Class level-5 vital articles 3644:Pengu#Administrative divisions 2932:. Cambridge University Press. 2878:Shepherd, John Robert (1993). 2110:, it should keep that name... 2076:Now, who will affirm that the 2008:the "French Wars" these days. 1391:Penghu Youth Activity Center: 1267:Separate Customs Territory of 309:Template:WikiProject Geography 13: 1: 3561:19:12, 22 December 2016 (UTC) 3514:20:59, 26 February 2014 (UTC) 3382:20:23, 16 February 2014 (UTC) 2369:16:20, 4 September 2010 (UTC) 2326:23:40, 31 December 2008 (UTC) 2290:22:00, 30 December 2008 (UTC) 2247:23:03, 27 December 2008 (UTC) 2230:15:09, 27 December 2008 (UTC) 2203:22:12, 24 December 2008 (UTC) 2173:, google maps and britannica 2162:21:13, 24 December 2008 (UTC) 2141:17:53, 24 December 2008 (UTC) 2048:14:14, 24 December 2008 (UTC) 2018:03:17, 24 December 2008 (UTC) 1986:23:36, 23 December 2008 (UTC) 1956:07:40, 23 December 2008 (UTC) 1863:22:55, 22 December 2008 (UTC) 1833:04:11, 19 December 2008 (UTC) 1814:01:33, 19 December 2008 (UTC) 1730:15:50, 18 December 2008 (UTC) 1703:15:09, 18 December 2008 (UTC) 1672:14:35, 18 December 2008 (UTC) 1639:03:26, 18 December 2008 (UTC) 1602:02:00, 18 December 2008 (UTC) 1557:for vandalism to the article 1541:03:51, 18 December 2008 (UTC) 1525:23:35, 17 December 2008 (UTC) 1508:22:26, 17 December 2008 (UTC) 1482:15:01, 17 December 2008 (UTC) 1467:09:13, 16 December 2008 (UTC) 1440:04:41, 16 December 2008 (UTC) 1417:00:48, 14 December 2008 (UTC) 1393:http://penghu.cyh.org.tw/eng/ 1271:(Chinese Taipei) and the WTO 1210:22:55, 22 December 2008 (UTC) 1191:22:40, 12 December 2008 (UTC) 1175:22:32, 12 December 2008 (UTC) 1156:22:59, 12 December 2008 (UTC) 1125:23:27, 12 December 2008 (UTC) 1069:00:11, 12 December 2008 (UTC) 1059:common name on the internet. 1054:23:47, 11 December 2008 (UTC) 1039:23:40, 11 December 2008 (UTC) 1023:22:47, 11 December 2008 (UTC) 993:07:24, 28 December 2008 (UTC) 946:22:41, 10 December 2006 (UTC) 915:11:24, 17 December 2006 (UTC) 905:01:01, 18 November 2006 (UTC) 885:02:37, 15 November 2006 (UTC) 832:22:43, 10 December 2006 (UTC) 684:and see a list of open tasks. 603:Knowledge:WikiProject Islands 597:and see a list of open tasks. 400:Unassessed geography articles 300:and see a list of open tasks. 53:Put new text under old text. 3722:WikiProject Islands articles 3304:horizontal tab character in 3251:horizontal tab character in 3139:horizontal tab character in 3086:16:25, 13 January 2013 (UTC) 2825:horizontal tab character in 1930:in a French historical work. 1345:Result for youtube entries: 690:Knowledge:WikiProject Taiwan 606:Template:WikiProject Islands 7: 3737:WikiProject Taiwan articles 3606:13:54, 4 January 2017 (UTC) 3584:06:13, 2 January 2017 (UTC) 3501:Move discussion in progress 3204:Wills, Jr, John E. (2010). 2494:Thomson, Janice E. (1996). 2444:Freeman, Donald B. (2003). 2383:Cooper, J. P., ed. (1979). 2350:00:27, 1 January 2009 (UTC) 1996:Obviously the title of the 1677:To the french contributor: 1364:Scenia area official site: 1336:Results for Fotki entries: 693:Template:WikiProject Taiwan 61:New to Knowledge? Welcome! 10: 3753: 3702:C-Class geography articles 3626:05:50, 7 August 2023 (UTC) 3154:Cook, Harold John (2007). 2083:BTW, nobody has told me y 1820:Cambridge History of China 1786:Cambridge History of China 1357:Official government site: 716:project's importance scale 332:project's importance scale 3658:22:59, 17 June 2024 (UTC) 3593:There is a discussion at 3538:16:28, 25 July 2014 (UTC) 3160:. Yale University Press. 2559:Covell, Ralph R. (1998). 2265:AT LAST IT WAS RENAMED!!! 1368:(Penghu, not pescadores) 929:16:28, 25 July 2014 (UTC) 866:21:44, 4 April 2006 (UTC) 860:http://www.penghu.gov.tw/ 846:16:28, 25 July 2014 (UTC) 823:17:41, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC) 756:13:59, 11 June 2006 (UTC) 709: 642: 555: 338: 325: 258: 237: 91:Be welcoming to newcomers 3717:C-Class Islands articles 2733:. De Souza & Company 2255:Please do not modify it. 2069:, it redirects u to the 1626:have some verifiability. 1361:(Not pescadores either) 961:Please do not modify it. 738:This article is part of 475:Knowledge requested maps 440:Geographical coordinates 3727:C-Class Taiwan articles 3359:Siege of Fort Zeelandia 2078:Ecyclopaedia Britannica 1928:campagne des Pescadores 1450:Encyclopædia Britannica 3672:C-Class vital articles 3597:regarding the article 3351: 2702:Check date values in: 1452:the islands are named 86:avoid personal attacks 3354:Battle of Liaoluo Bay 3346: 2095:give me an answer... 1354:Some official sites: 394:WikiProject Geography 289:WikiProject Geography 216:level-5 vital article 111:Neutral point of view 2176:just what I found: 2100:Pescadores Campaign' 116:No original research 3589:Deletion discussion 3315:CS1 maint: others ( 2607:Deng, Gang (1999). 1998:Pescadores Campaign 1924:Pescadores Campaign 1847:Pescadores Campaign 1762:Pescadores Campaign 1559:Pescadores Campaign 894:Knowledge:Consensus 586:WikiProject Islands 2844:(2 ed.). J. Murray 1713:and in particular 1388:Some NGO's sites: 673:WikiProject Taiwan 312:geography articles 225:content assessment 97:dispute resolution 58: 3566:Penghu in the PRC 2329: 2312:comment added by 2293: 2276:comment added by 2228: 2193:comment added by 2187:Penghu again... 2160: 2144: 2127:comment added by 2089:Windows Live Maps 2046: 1984: 1794:Cambridge History 1693:comment added by 1662:comment added by 1654:windows live maps 1498:comment added by 1395:(Not pescadores) 1382:(Not pescadores) 1375:(Not pescadores) 1257:Some new sources: 1026: 1009:comment added by 730: 729: 726: 725: 722: 721: 621: 620: 617: 616: 537: 536: 533: 532: 529: 528: 525: 524: 194: 193: 77:Assume good faith 54: 16:(Redirected from 3744: 3558: 3557: 3535: 3534: 3320: 3313: 3308:at position 12 ( 3307: 3301: 3295: 3290: 3288: 3280: 3278: 3276: 3260: 3255:at position 13 ( 3254: 3248: 3242: 3237: 3235: 3227: 3225: 3223: 3198: 3192: 3187: 3185: 3177: 3175: 3173: 3148: 3143:at position 14 ( 3142: 3136: 3130: 3125: 3123: 3115: 3113: 3111: 3010: 3004: 2999: 2997: 2989: 2987: 2985: 2970: 2964: 2959: 2957: 2949: 2947: 2945: 2922: 2916: 2911: 2909: 2901: 2899: 2897: 2874: 2868: 2863: 2861: 2853: 2851: 2849: 2834: 2829:at position 12 ( 2828: 2822: 2816: 2810: 2805:has extra text ( 2804: 2800: 2798: 2790: 2788: 2786: 2763: 2757: 2752: 2750: 2742: 2740: 2738: 2723: 2717: 2711: 2705: 2700: 2698: 2690: 2688: 2686: 2677:. 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