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630:. However, I think the current title is still best. 'Modern era' is concise and clear. On the point of consistency, there is little consistency in period names: ‘ancient history’ and ‘early modern period’ do not abide by a consistent scheme. On the contrary, I think it is an advantage to use ‘modern era’ over ‘modern period’ precisely because it disambiguates between the modern era as a whole and what are the two modern periods of history – early and late. Having the title as just ‘modern period’, at first glance, gives the impression of a single unitary period. ‘Modern history’ on the other hand, strips away all the sense of epoch conveyed by ‘era’ or ‘period’ and boils it down to the sense of just dates and events. The ‘modern era’, however, is much more. Just as Wiktionary notes it is somewhat synonymous with ‘modernity’, ‘modern era’ conveys that sense of a conceptual framework of the evolution of human intellectual and artistic thought, as well as history. The modern period therefore covers history, but it is also broader than it. It is its own epoch of intellectual, technological and artistic development.
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953:, this is a topic that is about historical research. In most serious historical works, authors specifically explain how they use certain terms to avoid confusion. If this was about about, say, chemistry or biology, wouldn't we be looking at the academic definitions primarily rather than trying to make our own surveys of language use? Shouldn't we be focusing on looking at historical research that actively discusses the concept of the "modern period"? What do standard textbooks and research encyclopedias say about this?
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1687:"Modern period" is by far the most common term used among historians. It's the standard heading used when defining the period, even if the precise definition varies a lot. Overall, this article is suffering from confusion by editors who haven't actually relied on reliable sources to write the article. Similar to the
1228:
I've moved a couple sections to be transcluded. I think this is better, but I remain concerned about this article and its scope. Seems like this should be about the era, not about the specific events in the era. That is, this should describe the times, which includes the effects of and the atmosphere
1152:
In just about all recent historical writing I've ever encountered, in my university studies of history, and from personal acquaintances who are academic historians, the term "modern period" is what's most common and it refers to the period c. 1800 until now. There's an older use of the term "modern"
1544:
There has been plenty of discussion before the redirection of late modern period was done with the approval of three editors. There was only one editor really objecting, but admitting that he might agree eventually at some point in the future. As far as I can tell, he was apparently only interested
1545:
in delaying action by repeating arguments he had already made before and reverting any substantial attempts at improving the situation for no good reason that I can see. As the other two pointed out, the reversions were contrary to policy and the objections not supported by policies and guidelines.
1851:
But here you go: By my sloppy count, there are about 230 article named "some era", including this one. Why should this one deviate from that pattern? Some are historic ("Greece in the Roman era", "Meiji era", "Music in the
Elizabethan era") some are not ("NASCAR Winston Cup Series era", "Noisy
1765:
I don't see why Google is being invoked in this case. The only thing it tells us is that the term "modern era" is more common, but we have no idea in what context it's used. This is supposed to be an article about historiography, right? So why aren't we looking at which terms are actually used
1165:
that the article is supposed to reflect. Global history does not neatly fall into time brackets, especially before industrialization. Historians do sometimes apply terms like "early modern", "medieval", "classical", "ancient", etc. to everything from
Mesoamerica to Japan, but usually with more
1209:
I've restructured this article and significantly trimmed it. Lots of material was simply copied inline without structure and also with careless reference management. The article is substantially smaller, but always references the main article for the given topic. My changes were motivated by
1516:: I did see that you undid my edits. I didn't merge the articles, but I think it would be better to open up a discussion on the talk page and get input there. That might be a better approach in doing this than boldly redirecting the page especially since it is a level 2 vital article.
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was popularized. However, here on
Knowledge, we seem to have gotten stuck in trying to include both the new and old definitions. To fix this misunderstanding, we kinda seem to have invented the notion of the "late modern", or at least pushed its usage beyond what's actually
1210:
maintenacne concerns, but also by worry for recency bias. While the George Floyd problem is part of a big trend in the US, it doesn't deserve six paragraphs here when the 9/11 attacks (and other attacks around the world) received only a mention in a single sentence.
1811:
gives. And per my previous not-vote: if this naming isn't correct, then we should work to systemically fix all the similarly-named articles. (This isn't OTHERSTUFF ... it's just that looking for consistency peace-meal is a difficult task.) --
694:
for that. The later modern terminology parallels this, but with lower usage, since 'late modern period' has more synonyms. However, as mentioned in that discussion by myself and others, the early/late distinction is useful for disambiguation.
1594:
The problem here is not any bold editing but that way too many editors have been trying to describe the modern period without actually reading historical research about it. It's really no different than all those editors insisting that
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753:
Editors disagree over what topic is the common name, and what title is consistent. After two relists there is no consensus to be found here, although I find the arguments against as presented by
Amakuru slightly stronger.
913:. The ngrams appear to be neck and neck, but when you drill down into what book results Google is actually turning up for the terms, you see that many of those for "modern history" aren't really about this topic at all -
1856:
on the table and discuss it. But renaming one or two articles of the couple-hundred in this set? Without that information, it seems like the suggested name change is arbitrary. And naming shouldn't be arbitrary. --
966:
There are plenty of detailed articles on various parts of modern history. Suggest that this article is heavenly pruned to remove the detailed historical content, and the name "Modern era" is retained.----
1751:. The Ngrams remains emphatic in the extreme, and mere consistency somewhat pales by comparison. Also, yes, the redirecting of the late modern period to the modern period is pretty confusing.
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1646:. On the other hand, I would point out that there have been 2 Requested Moves very recently, both of them resulting in no consensus. Where is the need for yet another discussion?
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type of history (social, political, cultural, etc). The idea that
Knowledge should simply decide that a period falls between specific years is a very obvious violation of
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1023:, I don't see any consistent usage -- history, age, era are all in use. Seems like there's no agreement about how to name this kind of article at all. --
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only gained popularity only recently and all three terms seem to be about the same now. I would suggest moving to modern history for historical purposes.
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There's also a problem of the article becoming a dumping ground for virtually any events that occured after about 1500. That goes against the concept of
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I'm not sure what the most appropriate article title for this particular article should be, but we should absolutely reduce the current three articles (
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I think all of these article titles are fairly fine as they are, but 'early modern period', for instance, dominates its alternatives, see the
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1181:) to just two articles: early modern (1500-1800) and modern (1800-now), at least if we want to be in sync with modern historical research.
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
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geographically specific definitions that are not synonymous to how the terms are applied in a
European (or North American) context.
932:, however, they seem to be mainly on-point. I think as a period of time, the current title (or modern period) describe it best. —
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which includes everything after the end of the Middle Ages, but that more or less stopped being the case after the concept of the
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1436:– Although both the modern era and modern period are both common to describe this period. I feel that to be consistent with the
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intermediate-scale quantum era"). If there's a reason to use "some period" instead of "some era", thats' great -- let's get
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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per the reasoning in the last two RMs, which were less than a year ago and less than two years ago respectively. Just
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content on
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I don't understand the the consistency argument here. What is that this article should be consistent with and why?
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show that modern history has been used throughout the last two hundred years while it looks like that both
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I recommend a joint discussion for all these articles since they seem to suffer from very similar issues.
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While I get the consistency argument, this proposed move, as I mentioned above, flies in the face of the
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created by the events of the era, not the events themselves. There are other articles for the events --
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1839:, I think you really need to explain your point here. What consistency are you arguing for and why?
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discussions about people's personal opinions on how we should periodise history, unsupported by any
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All of these terms are relatively synonymous, or, according to dubious understanding of
Wiktionary,
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because it represents an almost exclusively US-centeric view and description of the modern era. --
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after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
1498:, I did not see that the late modern period got merged. (I still think we need the years though.)
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after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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Editors interested in resolving this problem may find it beneficial to pursue Peter's suggestion.
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after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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on
Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on
Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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Yeah, I'm in the camp thinking that the late modern period shouldn't have been merged at.
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I agree that the situation here is a little more complex than this. There's also the page
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1476:: I would like to say that I do not agree that the decision to merge the "
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Copied text remains, and probably should be converted to transclusion. --
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could be. It might be more appropriate, for example, to move this page to
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I don't see a strong reason to rename this article right now, but per
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Knowledge talk:WikiProject History#Modernity articles are a hot mess
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112:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the subject of
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Knowledge:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 March 17 § Western era
1351:. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at
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already, the current title is the best one and commonly used. —
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Also, I would like to apologize for undoing a lot of your edits
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should include content content on "medieval China" or whatever.
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That's odd -- why are you singling me out for an explanation?
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I've raised the problems in this and the related articles
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On 3 September 2023, it was proposed that this article be
330:, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the
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is a serious academic issue and is essentially a kind of
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On 5 November 2022, it was proposed that this article be
217:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the
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Talk:Early_modern_period#Requested_move_7_October_2022
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to determine whether its use and function meets the
916:. For example, I'm seeing it return results such as
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1241:for example -- no need to enumerate them again. --
984:that also has some overlap with this page and what
1747:between the two terms. Also, everything I said in
1305:in Wikiproject History. Thread can be found here:
788:– I believe that this article should be moved to
1887:
1150:This article does not follow current research.
648:, Could you clarify from your oppose vote at
337:History of Science Collaboration of the Month
1961:High-importance history of science articles
1916:Knowledge level-2 vital articles in History
792:to be consistent with other titles such as
1480:" should have been made by a single user.
1394:The following is a closed discussion of a
730:The following is a closed discussion of a
480:The following is a closed discussion of a
1946:High-importance European history articles
1706:: Notify editors from the previous RM's;
322:, an attempt to improve and organize the
346:Knowledge:WikiProject History of Science
1966:WikiProject History of Science articles
1548:What is important right now is finding
922:Sport and the British: A Modern History
349:Template:WikiProject History of Science
19:
1951:All WikiProject European history pages
1888:
1128:has been notified of this discussion.
1100:has been notified of this discussion.
1072:has been notified of this discussion.
1044:has been notified of this discussion.
231:Knowledge:WikiProject European history
1440:that this title would be reasonable.
234:Template:WikiProject European history
1413:The result of the move request was:
749:The result of the move request was:
499:The result of the move request was:
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211:This article is within the scope of
106:This article is within the scope of
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1956:C-Class history of science articles
1906:Knowledge vital articles in History
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49:It is of interest to the following
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1941:C-Class European history articles
1921:C-Class vital articles in History
1931:High-importance history articles
1901:Knowledge level-2 vital articles
1878:The discussion above is closed.
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1196:The discussion above is closed.
835:) 20:15, 12 September 2023 (UTC)
820:) 20:54, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
714:The discussion above is closed.
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594:) 05:39, 5 November 2022 (UTC)
366:This article has been rated as
251:This article has been rated as
146:This article has been rated as
1911:C-Class level-2 vital articles
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1264:I've tagged this article with
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859:17:21, 21 September 2023 (UTC)
774:03:15, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
761:closed by non-admin page mover
506:closed by non-admin page mover
473:Requested move 5 November 2022
334:. You can also help with the
319:History of Science WikiProject
1:
1316:13:53, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
882:04:18, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
614:04:22, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
533:– Should be renamed to ether
519:01:10, 20 November 2022 (UTC)
225:and see a list of open tasks.
126:Knowledge:WikiProject History
120:and see a list of open tasks.
1936:WikiProject History articles
1448:) 20:12, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
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316:This article is part of the
214:WikiProject European history
129:Template:WikiProject History
7:
1387:Requested move 27 June 2024
918:Leicester: A Modern History
652:whether you support moving
620:Oppose (both of the above):
352:history of science articles
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1768:when writing about history
1664:Support per nom and NLeeuw
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372:project's importance scale
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676:respectively? Thanks,
584:Post-classical history
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889:. Seems right to me.
36:level-2 vital article
1749:the November 2022 RM
1496:User:Interstellarity
1205:Trim, scope, recency
666:Early modern history
1562:early modern period
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1343:has been listed at
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178:High‑importance
177:
148:High-importance
131:
128:
125:
122:
121:
99:
94:
92:
73:High‑importance
72:
43:on Knowledge's
40:
30:
12:
11:
5:
1979:
1969:
1968:
1963:
1958:
1953:
1948:
1943:
1938:
1933:
1928:
1923:
1918:
1913:
1908:
1903:
1898:
1877:
1876:
1875:
1874:
1873:
1872:
1871:
1870:
1869:
1849:
1802:
1780:
1779:
1778:
1777:
1738:
1699:
1698:
1681:
1680:
1667:
1666:
1665:
1659:
1658:
1635:
1634:
1633:
1632:
1631:
1630:
1629:
1628:
1627:
1626:
1625:
1624:
1600:
1592:
1546:
1425:
1411:
1410:
1396:requested move
1390:
1388:
1385:
1383:
1362:
1329:
1319:
1290:
1287:
1261:
1258:
1256:
1254:
1253:
1206:
1203:
1195:
1193:
1191:
1190:
1182:
1167:
1159:
1147:
1120:
1119:
1092:
1091:
1064:
1063:
1036:
1035:
1014:
1013:
1012:
990:Modern history
986:Modern history
963:
962:
961:
960:
904:
884:
790:Modern history
785:Modern history
777:
747:
746:
732:requested move
726:
724:
721:
713:
712:
711:
710:
709:
708:
707:
617:
567:Modern history
547:Modern history
522:
497:
496:
482:requested move
476:
474:
471:
468:
467:
464:
463:
456:the discussion
452:Modern history
444:
432:
431:
424:the discussion
412:
400:
399:
396:
384:
383:
380:
379:
376:
375:
364:
358:
357:
355:
315:
314:
298:
286:
285:
277:
265:
264:
261:
260:
249:
243:
242:
240:
223:the discussion
210:
209:
193:
181:
180:
172:
160:
159:
156:
155:
144:
138:
137:
135:
118:the discussion
105:
104:
101:History portal
88:
76:
75:
67:
55:
54:
48:
26:
9:
6:
4:
3:
2:
1978:
1967:
1964:
1962:
1959:
1957:
1954:
1952:
1949:
1947:
1944:
1942:
1939:
1937:
1934:
1932:
1929:
1927:
1924:
1922:
1919:
1917:
1914:
1912:
1909:
1907:
1904:
1902:
1899:
1897:
1894:
1893:
1891:
1881:
1868:
1864:
1860:
1855:
1850:
1847:
1846:
1845:
1842:
1838:
1834:
1833:
1832:
1829:
1825:
1824:
1823:
1819:
1815:
1810:
1806:
1803:
1801:
1797:
1793:
1789:
1785:
1782:
1781:
1776:
1773:
1769:
1764:
1763:
1762:
1758:
1754:
1750:
1746:
1742:
1739:
1736:
1732:
1728:
1725:
1721:
1717:
1713:
1709:
1705:
1701:
1700:
1697:
1694:
1690:
1686:
1683:
1682:
1679:
1675:
1671:
1668:
1663:
1662:
1661:
1660:
1657:
1653:
1649:
1645:
1641:
1637:
1636:
1623:
1620:
1616:
1612:
1608:
1604:
1603:Periodization
1601:
1598:
1593:
1591:
1587:
1583:
1579:
1575:
1571:
1567:
1563:
1559:
1555:
1551:
1547:
1543:
1542:
1541:
1537:
1533:
1529:
1528:
1527:
1523:
1519:
1515:
1511:
1510:
1509:
1505:
1501:
1497:
1493:
1492:
1491:
1487:
1483:
1479:
1475:
1472:
1471:
1470:
1469:
1468:
1466:
1462:
1458:
1455:
1454:
1447:
1443:
1439:
1434:
1433:Modern period
1429:
1424:
1423:
1420:
1416:
1409:
1407:
1402:
1397:
1392:
1391:
1384:
1381:
1380:
1374:
1373:
1368:
1367:
1361:
1356:
1355:
1350:
1346:
1341:
1337:The redirect
1335:
1328:
1324:
1318:
1317:
1314:
1309:
1308:
1304:
1300:
1296:
1286:
1285:
1281:
1277:
1270:
1260:Globalization
1257:
1252:
1248:
1244:
1240:
1236:
1232:
1227:
1226:
1225:
1224:
1220:
1216:
1211:
1199:
1194:
1189:
1186:
1183:
1180:
1176:
1172:
1168:
1164:
1163:periodization
1160:
1156:
1151:
1148:
1145:
1142:
1140:
1138:
1127:
1122:
1121:
1117:
1114:
1112:
1110:
1099:
1094:
1093:
1089:
1086:
1084:
1082:
1071:
1066:
1065:
1061:
1058:
1056:
1054:
1043:
1038:
1037:
1034:
1030:
1026:
1022:
1018:
1015:
1011:
1007:
1003:
999:
995:
992:and redirect
991:
987:
983:
979:
978:
977:
973:
969:
965:
964:
959:
956:
950:
945:
944:
943:
939:
935:
931:
927:
923:
919:
915:
912:
911:WP:COMMONNAME
908:
905:
903:
900:
898:
897:
896:
888:
885:
883:
879:
875:
871:
870:WP:CONSISTENT
867:
864:
863:
862:
860:
857:
855:
853:
843:
842:
834:
830:
827:
826:
819:
815:
811:
807:
806:Modern period
803:
799:
795:
791:
786:
781:
776:
775:
771:
767:
762:
755:
752:
751:no consensus.
745:
743:
738:
733:
728:
727:
717:
706:
702:
698:
693:
689:
688:
687:
683:
679:
675:
671:
667:
663:
659:
655:
651:
647:
643:
642:
641:
637:
633:
629:
625:
621:
618:
615:
612:
610:
609:
608:
601:
600:
593:
589:
585:
581:
577:
573:
572:WP:CONSISTENT
569:
568:
563:
562:
561:
560:
556:
552:
548:
544:
540:
536:
535:Modern period
531:
530:Modern period
526:
521:
520:
516:
512:
507:
502:
501:no consensus.
495:
493:
488:
483:
478:
477:
461:
457:
453:
449:
445:
438:
437:
429:
425:
421:
420:Modern period
417:
413:
406:
405:
401:
397:
390:
389:
373:
369:
363:
360:
359:
356:
339:
338:
333:
329:
325:
321:
320:
312:
301:
299:
296:
292:
291:
287:
281:
278:
275:
271:
270:
258:
254:
248:
245:
244:
241:
224:
220:
216:
215:
207:
206:Europe portal
196:
194:
191:
187:
186:
182:
176:
173:
170:
166:
165:
153:
149:
143:
140:
139:
136:
119:
115:
111:
110:
102:
91:
89:
86:
82:
81:
77:
71:
68:
65:
61:
60:
56:
52:
46:
38:
37:
27:
23:
18:
17:
1879:
1853:
1805:Oppose Again
1804:
1783:
1767:
1740:
1727:BilledMammal
1716:Arbitrarily0
1703:
1684:
1644:Weak support
1643:
1610:
1473:
1457:BilledMammal
1452:
1451:
1426:
1415:no consensus
1414:
1412:
1400:
1393:
1382:
1370:
1364:
1352:
1331:
1325:" listed at
1310:
1292:
1263:
1255:
1235:21st century
1212:
1208:
1197:
1192:
1149:
1129:
1101:
1073:
1045:
1016:
906:
895:Arbitrarily0
894:
893:
892:
886:
865:
844:
840:
839:
824:
823:
778:
766:BilledMammal
756:
750:
748:
736:
729:
715:
619:
607:Arbitrarily0
606:
605:
604:
598:
597:
564:
523:
500:
498:
486:
479:
460:no consensus
459:
428:no consensus
427:
367:
335:
328:project page
317:
252:
212:
147:
107:
51:WikiProjects
34:
1809:Iskandar323
1753:Iskandar323
1724:Iskandar323
1689:Middle Ages
1640:WP:TITLECON
1597:Middle Ages
1406:move review
1340:Western era
1323:Western era
1002:Iskandar323
829:– robertsky
742:move review
697:Iskandar323
646:Iskandar323
632:Iskandar323
492:move review
1890:Categories
1720:Rreagan007
1558:modern era
1453:Relisting.
1428:Modern era
1171:modern era
994:Modern era
968:Ehrenkater
874:Rreagan007
841:Relisting.
825:Relisting.
810:Modern era
780:Modern era
660:to either
599:Relisting.
588:Rreagan007
576:Prehistory
525:Modern era
332:discussion
1670:Kowal2701
1574:WP:SIGCOV
1550:WP:SIGCOV
1303:modernity
1269:Globalize
1158:relevant.
998:modernity
982:modernity
39:is rated
1859:Mikeblas
1837:Mikeblas
1814:Mikeblas
1708:Mikeblas
1685:Support.
1642:I'd say
1607:taxonomy
1570:WP:SYNTH
1276:Mikeblas
1243:Mikeblas
1215:Mikeblas
1025:Mikeblas
565:Move to
1792:Amakuru
1741:Oppose:
1712:Amakuru
1615:WP:NPOV
1474:Comment
1136:Raydann
1108:Raydann
1080:Raydann
1052:Raydann
949:Amakuru
934:Amakuru
887:Support
866:Support
851:Raydann
370:on the
255:on the
150:on the
123:History
114:History
70:History
41:C-class
1784:Oppose
1648:NLeeuw
1582:NLeeuw
1419:(talk)
1360:Utopes
1237:, and
1124:Note:
1096:Note:
1068:Note:
1040:Note:
1017:Oppose
907:Oppose
802:ngrams
800:. The
692:Ngrams
628:Ngrams
582:, and
47:scale.
1841:Peter
1828:Peter
1772:Peter
1693:Peter
1619:Peter
1578:WP:RS
1566:WP:OR
1554:WP:RS
1313:Peter
1231:2020s
1185:Peter
955:Peter
448:moved
416:moved
28:This
1863:talk
1854:that
1818:talk
1796:talk
1757:talk
1731:talk
1674:talk
1652:talk
1586:talk
1568:and
1560:and
1556:for
1536:talk
1522:talk
1504:talk
1486:talk
1461:talk
1446:talk
1372:cont
1366:talk
1301:and
1280:talk
1247:talk
1239:1998
1219:talk
1177:and
1029:talk
1006:talk
972:talk
938:talk
924:and
909:per
878:talk
868:per
833:talk
818:talk
808:and
796:and
770:talk
701:talk
682:talk
668:and
656:and
636:talk
592:talk
570:per
555:talk
541:and
515:talk
458:was
426:was
362:High
247:High
142:High
1611:and
1576:in
1552:in
1132:❯❯❯
1104:❯❯❯
1076:❯❯❯
1048:❯❯❯
996:to
847:❯❯❯
672:or
664:or
450:to
418:to
1892::
1865:)
1820:)
1798:)
1770:?
1759:)
1733:)
1722:,
1718:,
1714:,
1710:,
1676:)
1654:)
1588:)
1580:.
1538:)
1524:)
1506:)
1488:)
1463:)
1450:—
1430:→
1398:.
1369:/
1297:,
1282:)
1272:}}
1266:{{
1249:)
1233:,
1221:)
1173:,
1031:)
1008:)
974:)
940:)
920:,
880:)
872:.
838:—
822:—
782:→
772:)
734:.
703:)
684:)
638:)
596:—
586:.
578:,
557:)
549:.
527:→
517:)
484:.
1861:(
1835:@
1816:(
1794:(
1755:(
1729:(
1672:(
1650:(
1584:(
1534:(
1520:(
1512:@
1502:(
1484:(
1459:(
1444:(
1375:)
1363:(
1321:"
1278:(
1245:(
1217:(
1027:(
1004:(
970:(
951::
947:@
936:(
876:(
831:(
816:(
768:(
763:)
759:(
699:(
680:(
644:@
634:(
590:(
553:(
513:(
508:)
504:(
462:.
430:.
374:.
340:.
259:.
154:.
53::
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