Talk:Child sacrifice

1361:

there is little evidence, in that case, restore my material, and produce academic evidence that counters the claim. You cannot simply continue to remove sections of refrenced material that discusses this issue, just because you personally do not agree with it. I am not putting my opinions here, I am giving reference academic sources. Why not produce the same? I am now going to look at taking administrative action against your clearly disruptive actions. As I have stated before the reason why there is so much material here is because this is not UNDUE, this is a viewpoint shared by many academics, that is why I quote so many of them. Please stop the disruption, and produce some academic evidence alongside that which I will restore

490:

societies that led to child sacrifice, or did the societies already have child-murder, or have it for other reasons, and the religions of these societies reflects that fact or created new reasons? In any event, child sacrifice is not the foundation of Judaism (indeed, one of the foundational texts is a rebuke against child sacrifice; moreover, God's initial order to Abraham to sacrifice Isaac had nothing to do with Abraham's "sins"), nor is it the foundation of Islam. Christianity is arguably more complicated. God is not requiring the sacrifice of His son for His (the Father's) sins, but for the sins of all humanity. Moreover, I think it is perhaps more Jesus' sacrifice than God's. SR

1398:

that I will have further material to add on the Jephthah story. Academic sources point to this as a story which explains the adoption of a Cannanite ritual, in which young women go away from the village. There is of course no explicit condemnation of Jephthah in the text. The present section only gives one viewpoint of the story, and that is undue, since academic studies differ so markedly from the traditional viewpoint. Also note that none of the 'unsourced junk' came from me. All of my sources are reliable. I also note again that your advice about signing is a personal opinion, and is not backed up by any reference to any policy.

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does not just say that it was believed that it could be a legitimate part.) Nor is the phrase 'the ancient Israelite religion' entirely neutral as it suggests that there was one such religion, rather than a series of cultic practices which slowly changed from polytheism to monolatory to monotheism. If you are familiar with the phrase 'yahweh alone' you will know what I am referring to. I therefore suggest this slight revision.

1311:

can produce more quotes if required. This material should not be removed again without a discussion first. It represents an academic viewpoint. This can be added as a preamble, but it should not be removed on the grounds that it represents a minority view, when this is clearly not true on the basis of the number of quotes given. I would welcome alternative views to this academic 'concensus' if that is desired.

2298:"The birth of Jesus on route with his parents rushing back to Galilee indicates they wished to avoid giving birth in Phoenicia where the newborn's life would be at risk." ...From where exactly were they "rushing back"? When were his parents in Phoenicia? They seem to be mentioned only in reference to Nazareth, Bethlehem, and Jerusalem; none of them Phoenician towns. Chapter and verse would be nice, thank you. 870:

importance children had for Aztec religion was through magical association: when they were taken to their sacrifice, if they cried, it was considered to be a good omen, because their tears were considered as indicators of the upcoming rains. The more the children cried, the more abundant the rains would be that year; likewise, if the children didn't cry, that meant the rains would not come that year.

1152:

zeroes lower than those accounts. Not that i tried to deny the aztec sacrify a lot of people... is just i am a bit skeptical of those high numbers, even a few hundred of sacrifices were a too much and a very bloddy thing. Just rememberd that most of the spaniards and most of the meshica were illiterate... For an illiterate people even one thousand IS a very big number.

614:

outsiders rarely recognize how ludicrous such behaviours are only goes to show how powerful a hold psychoanalytic symbols have over everyone. Anyways, the point of this is that religious rituals can be pretty fucked outside of the nice sanitary American versions. And you'll need to accept some outrageous ideas in order to make sense of them. -- Ark

1384:. I've also removed a bunch of other unsourced junk in the section. Parroting back my warnings about disruption and administrative action is mildly amusing, I suppose, but won't end well for you. And, for what I hope is the last time, please learn how to format your comments properly - that includes putting your signature 2044:, but also other gods). I've never seen this page before so I don't know how old it is, but I'm wondering if this a direct omission or just a topic that hasn't been explored. I'm happy to add text in here on the other near East gods that promoted child sacrifice, but I just wanted to ask the question first. 797:

phrases, I'd say that most of what you call into question above should be discarded unless it comes up on a Google search. The Incan stuff has lots of references at least, but I doubt the rest does. I'll check, if I can't find at least two seemingly independent references for the others, I'll remove them.

1655:'The polemic against child sacrifice (to YHWH) in Deut. 12:29ff.; Jer 7:31; 19:5, 32:35 indicates that at least from the time of the last kings of Judah it was popularly believed that YHWH accepted, perhaps even commanded, it.' Moshe Greenberg, Ezekiel 1-20 (Garden City, NY: Doubleday, 1983), pg 369 1203:

Yes: I had already seen that photo in a book by Eduardo Matos Moctezuma (but it's not a real tzompantli, only a stone representation of it). Many scholars know that the numbers were highly inflated. I have to check out how many days the consecration of the temple lasted and if they have made reliable

1310:

A considerable amount of material, all from academic sources was removed. This was justified on the grounds that it gave undue prominence to a minority view. The reason for giving so many references was in order to show that these quotes represent a viewpoint with considerable academic support. I

1024:

was far more heated and, while it does seem that the consensus opinion among historians and scholars seems to be that child sacrifice was practiced in Carthage, it's not clear that this is more than speculation. I personally am willing to believe that child sacrifice was practiced. However, I have

980:

This is why I was concerned when I first read about child sacrifice being central to Aztec religion. It wasn't given much attention in any of the Aztec-related articles and so I was concerned that it was scurrilous nonsense or blood libel. Since then, I have been convinced that it is true and that

873:

Just another comment. It is not fair to judge an ancient religion like this using modern day parameters and prejudices. Remember that what they did (including child sacrifice) was not considered "evil" in those days; the idea that child sacrifice is wrong is something that developed fairly recently.

824:

I brought it up because it seems to appear fairly often on a search of child sacrifice, therefore it might be entering into public usage that way. At least with the alleged usage of children as martyrs by Palestinians, it still has the religious overtones. Fine line yes, and I'd be perfectly happy

489:

I agree with the above remark. Child sacrifice is something that most certainly has happened, and there should be a good article on why. But it is absurd to use this article merely to trash "great religions." At the very least it oversimplifies an important question: was it the religions of these

1727:

Of course, it is not your decision as to what goes in the article, and you should not presume that anything will need 'fixing'. The final wording will be open to all editors to discuss. As I have already pointed out, the article originally lacked balance, as it relied too heavily on Tanakh being

1426:

Is that it? Don't you have anything to say in defence of your accusations against me? I must conclude that you wrote them in anger, and consequently I will ignore them. I shall return with the academic references on Jephthah, as at the moment the only opinion given on the story is from the Tanakh

1397:

Now why didn't you just discuss this, as I asked, and we could have avoided all the wasted time? I will no longer be pursuing my action against you, now that most of the material has been restored. The rest may be added elsewhere, or I may restore some of it, I have not decided yet. Note however,

1327:

Again the material that I added on early Israelite child sacrifice has been removed with no reason given. This material will be added back in, as it is backed by numerous academic references. If anyone wishes to remove this well attested material, then please discuss it first, or provide contrary

1151:

The actual number will be unknown... All we can say is that the figure of 4,000 is posible and is more acepted by schollars. Although still a bit high if the acounts are to be taken literray. Since it still represents about one sacrifice by minute... and the archeological evidence is still several

493:

You can't separate child sacrifice from religion and ask which caused the other. That's just not possible. Anyways, I concede the point since it's not possible to support it without going into psychology, which I'm sure is way too controversial for people who can't even agree on such trivial things

1857:

I expect you to actually input the text. The suggestion does not accurately reflect what the quotes convey, and is not entirely neutral. It does not reflect what Susan Nidditch states which is a claim that the academic consensus is that child sacrifice was part of ancient Israelite religion (she

1702:

I will add all these in tomorrow, once the 24 hours revert time period is up. I can add a note stating that this is an accepted academic viewpoint, with much support, or I can simply let the quotes speak for themselves. I will await suggestions as to a suitable preamble, if indeed one is required.

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I had attempted to modify this article before realizing it was being changed... Much of what was written was from a rather suspect looking web page. Given that the phrase "Child sacrifice was the foundation of all great religions" was lifted directly from the site, along with other highly suspect

513:

Counting Jesus under "child sacrifice" makes this equivalent to "human sacrifice"--all humans, of any age, were once children. Nonetheless, I think you'd agree that there's a difference between selecting children to sacrifice, and sacrificing prisoners regardless of age, and again between that and

1803:

Susan Niditch, in War in the Hebrew Bible: A Study in the Ethics of Violence (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1993, p 47) says, “While there is considerable controversy about the matter, the consensus over the last decade concludes that child sacrifice was a part of ancient Israelite religion to

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1360:

You have again removed this material without discussion. Why did you not take up my offer of discussion? The article at present is a classic case of undue. Where do my sources dispute that the Tanakh condemns child sacrifice? The Tanakh is only one point of view on this topic. You state that

865:

To this god is to whom child sacrifices were performed. It had an easy explanation. Fr. Bernardino de Sahagún, one of the first friars to come to Mexico after the conquest, as well as Fr. Diego Duran, Fr. Toribio de Benavente and others, wrote several traditions dealing with this. To not overload

505:

The Aztec's religion comes to mind. Judaism has child sacrifice in a number of places. And Christianity! In Christianity, the Virgin Mary is commonly worshipped. Who was she? She was the woman who gave birth to a boy who sacrificed himself. Jesus sacrifice is itself more evidence of the murderous

2434:

The view presented begs the basic question: Why is a ram depicted in the painting according to the Genesis account, if the painter wanted to depict Isaac's explicit sacrifice? If the view must remain in the article, then this question should be added afterwards, along with the image in question.

2138:

I can understand that Romans might have denigrated Carthage for political reasons during the wars, but why afterwards? I recommend the deletion of the unreferenced and seemingly unlikely statement that "Some scholars think that after the Romans finally defeated Carthage and totally destroyed the

2039:

This page is pretty lacking in the section I list in the thread title. Half of the section goes into detail about Jewish practices - which may or may not include child sacrifice, all we have are opinions of researchers - while completely omitting the ACTUAL evidence of child sacrifice of all the

1939:

Susan Nidditch states that the academic consensus is that child sacrifice was part of ancient Israelite religion (she does not just say that it was believed that it could be a legitimate part.) The four words I have proposed to add would make that clearer. I have suggested removing the word the

861:

The part dealing with war is the best known part of Aztec religion: the sacrifices to the Sun to make it strong, the eternal debt of blood and hearts the Aztecs had towards the Sun for the privilege of being the rulers of their known world... but there is another, equally important part of Aztec

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These places all have something in common. They're all psycho-socially backwards. I can confirm at least some of it from personal experience. And if you have doubts about psychoanalysis, just listen to this. In Poland, depictions of Jesus are shown with a bloody heart over the chest. Not a heart

2080:

There is a very brief mention of widespread child sacrifice in pagan Europe. Even in Greece, the most adavanced country in Europe, child sacrifice was prevalent. The Greeks had a writing system, whereas the Anglo-Saxons and the Nordic tribes did not even have hieroglyphics; and that's why child

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Child sacrifices were made in very much the same way as adult sacrifices, although there seem to be regional variants. So, Sahagún says that they were sacrificed by taking off their hearts, while Duran and others say they were sacrificed by slashing their throats or by drowning. Either way, the

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Pagans killed thier female infants, but I don't think they were sacrificing to a particular god or godess. Infact, I'm not sure what their motive was. And we don't need to use the Qur'an as a source for this, pre-Islamic Arab child sacrifice is a historical fact and should be found in history

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In modern times, child sacrifice is a term that has also been applied to the military use of children. It has also be applied to embryonic stem cell research, where the embryo, thought by many to be a living human child, is destroyed in order to obtain promised health benefits and scientific

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but a depiction of an actual human heart. This is completely bizarre yet nobody bats an eyelash at it. They just worship this bloody human heart and they don't think there's anything wrong with it. There's really no possible way to explain it except psychoanalytically. And the fact that even

1187:

The first fotograph seem to be an osuary from China, and there is about 900 skulls, the second is the "great tzompantli" of Tenochtitlan (it had wood poles, adn the skull were separated about 80 -110 cms from each other)... where it was claimed there were 100,000 skulls... Think about it..

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religion, and that was the part dealing with agriculture. In fact, agriculture was so important to the Aztec, that the most representative of all agricultural gods - Tlaloc, god of rain and water - shared the most prominent temple in the city of Tenochtitlan - the so-called "Templo Mayor".

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The Dura-Europos contains multiple wall paintings, however there is only a single one depicting the Binding of Isaac (which begs the question of why the plural was used there), and its interpretation here is highly questionable and is presented without the most basic of counter-arguments.

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Really? Logically, we have two options here: A) Jesus was really God as Christians claim. Then he was very well capable of making his own decision to be sacrifized. B) Jesus was not God. Then he was murdered by romans, because what could he have done to prevent his cruzification? Nothing.

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Thanks. I’ll read the article. Wasn’t Arens the guy who believed that tzompantlis were lineal and hence his erroneous “100 Km” calculation? Presently, the actual numbers of rotten heads and skulls in tzompantlis have been fairly calculated. Take a look at Chapter V of López-Moctezuma’s

1101:

OK, please do the moving. But if child sacrifice was performed in Carthage —and there are thousands of charred bones of children— it's no hyperbole to compare it with the Holocaust deniers. I'll take a look at the articles you called my attention to, and compare them with my sources.

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I'm just trying to short-cut the process here; usually you a) create some wording, then b) I have to make it comply with NPOV, NOR, and what the sources actually say, then c) you reflexively revert me a few times until you finally come around. It would be easier to avoid all of that.

1627:

Jon D. Levenson states that "only at a particular stage rather late in the history of Israel was child sacrifice branded as counter to the will of YHWH and thus ipso facto idolatrous." The Death and Resurrection of the Beloved Son, p 5,(New Haven: Yale University Press, 1993)

1807:

Susan Ackerman states that within the ancient Israelite community, “the cult of child sacrifice was felt in some circles to be a legitimate expression of Yawistic faith.” Under Every Green Tree: Popular Religion in Sixth-Century Judah, p 137 (Atlanta: Scholars Press, 1992)

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1110:), exaggerated the numbers. For instance, during the consecration of the Great Pyramid at Tenochtitlan the Aztecs claimed 20,000 victims. But when the friars arrived and interviewed the old Mexicas, the Aztecs stated that “only” 4,000 were sacrificed in the consecration. — 650:

What the heck were female goddesses originally singled out for in this article? Child sacrifice has been dedicated to both male and female gods in plenty. I'd really like to see references for many of these, for example, to sacrifices to Hathor the fertility goddess.

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in a culture (Carthaginian for instance) was probably far less than commonly believed, perhaps only as part of myths from some cultures. In other cases, archaeological evidence has confirmed the written sources, and even added new information that keeps the debate

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Levensen "only at a particular stage rather late in the history of Israel was child sacrifice branded as counter to the will of YHWH and thus ipso facto idolatrous." The Death and Resurrection of the Beloved Son, p 5,(New Haven: Yale University Press, 1993)

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Somewhere on one of the Talk Pages, Nanahuatzin does a calculation that shows that there is no way the Aztec priests could have sacrificed the high number of victims that they claimed to have. Drop him a message on his talk page and ask him for the details.

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used to suppport itself, and not enough on interpretation. Since however you wish to add further evidence of these interpretations, I will come up with a suggested wording. I did not of course state that the quotes will go in directly. Good point though.

1888:

Susan Nidditch uses the very phrase "part of ancient Israelite religion", so I can't see how that doesn't "accurately reflect what the quotes say" or "is not entirely neutral". Furthermore, of the other sources, Ackerman states child sacrifice was "felt

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this thread with data - I might create a separate page instead - I'll translate Sahagún's account: children were sacrificed because they were associated to Tlaloc (or, more precisely, to Tlaloc's assistants) and were thought to become aides to the God.

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at worst. It's not going into the article until a consensus to insert it is reached here, so please work towards that, rather than trying to force it in. By the way, it looks fairly silly when someone edit-wars over material while admonishing others to

1073:

I would move the sentence into a section at the end titled "Blood libel". If the charge is that Jews and Roma sacrificed their children, then the claim belongs here but not in the intro and we must make sure to properly characterize it as blood libel.

1250:

exactly !!! (LOL) I re - did his calculation based on the modern recontruction.. but still it was too large. But do not be too harsh on Arens.. His book make a lot of antropologist rethink the differecne on what was told versus what was knonw...

880:

A little comment on the sacrifice to Tlaloc. The recent excavation of the "templo Mayor" in Mexico, has shown that almost all the children sacrificed to Tlaloc wer sick male children about 6 years. Problably it was a way to ensure they were crying.

593:

commonly worshipped in many Christian sects, just not American ones. Latin America, Italy, Spain, and Eastern Europe are just some of the places with Virgin Mary worship; in Mexico she's called the Virgin of Guadeloupe, in Poland the Black Madonna.

555:

his father. Consent or non-consent is irrelevant; children aren't capable of informed consent. Pedophiles make a big deal of children being "consenting" when being molested or raped. The same thing's happening with Jesus. Jesus didn't consent, he

1717:

We certainly aren't going to fill up the article with quotations. Please propose the text you will use here, then I'll be able to fix it so it accurately reflects the sources. It will be easier than having to do it in the article itself.

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Is that important? I mean, we're talking about whether there's child sacrifice in Christianity. The RC Church has a fairly unbroken history lasting two millenia with millions of adherents in dozens of countries. How do Baptist churches

1412:

The "advice" I gave about not leaving your signature dangling at the beginning of the next line, unattached to anything, is "a personal opinion, and is not backed up by any reference to any policy"? That's the best you can do? We are

806:

I'm going to attempt to integrate what I had with the new version. I also included alleged activities by Palestinians in this regard, I'd appreciate if anyone who knows corroborating evidence or disputing evidence to check for NPOV.

1546:

Here are the endorsements for this book, and the authors academic credentials. This book is endorsed by academic writers, and has also received good reviews as to its content. The quote should not be removed without discussion.

2564:"Tophet" is an archaeological term for a Carthaginian infant cemetery where sacrifices may have been conducted, as is explained at the article. There is no reason to restrict the article just to the place so-called in the bible.-- 1954:

The four words add verbiage but no semantic content - the sentence has the identical meaning with or without them, so it's not a good idea to add them. On the other hand, I'm fine with leaving out the word "the" before "ancient".

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They are discussed in secondary sources as related to the tophet. What is your goal here exactly? To reduce the article "tophet" or to create a new one, or to expand it? You seem to be arguing for contradictory

1893:

to be a legitimate expression etc." and Levensen doesn't directly address the issue. From what I can tell, the difference between your proposal and mine is the addition of the four bolded words in the following:

1592:, a fairly new (established 1995) and quite small publisher that publishes religious books and specializes in "short book runs" - i.e. books that don't sell very many copies. Regarding Stark's claim, you stated 618:

Something interesting I just read. The babylonians' religion was based on a reverse child sacrifice. The son, Marduk, killed his mother Tiamat. That little bit of reverse sacrifice also occurs in Aztec rituals.

2427:, “Abraham! Abraham!” “Here I am,” he replied. “Do not lay a hand on the boy,” he said. “Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son.” 1105:

Re User:Nanahuatzin, it's true that both the Aztecs (for propagandistic purposes: they wanted to scare their neighbors) and the Spanish (due to the shock and gross miscounting of the heads and skulls at the

785:

On the whole, we might do better to put this in the style of, "Bodies have been found here, and are thought to be child sacrifices because..." and "reports of child sacrifices are found in the myths of..."

1375:

I am discussing it with you, despite the fact that your discussions typically contain little content relevant to policy. I've cleaned up your material, reformatted it properly, and re-added what came from

498:

What's wrong with it is that it's still not supported: what great religions is, or was, child sacrifice central to? Not Judaism, Christianity, Islam, or Buddhism. Not, as far as I know, Taoism or Shinto.

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I'm not a Christian, but as far as I can tell, Mary is not "commonly worshipped": even aside from the distinction between "venerate" and "worship", many Christian groups do *not* venerate/worship Mary.

858:

This might be useful. Aztec religion was quite complex, though certain main streams of thought can be discerned from it. In fact, overly simplified, it was a religion based on war and agriculture.

1220:

If you have the "Codex Mendoza", please comment it, i think it is the original source for the hight numbers of the sacrifice at the main temple. By the way. You may find interesting this article:

1063:—it isn't really germane to the article. It confuses a horrendous libel against the Jews with actual, historical child sacrifice. The reader might be confused since the beginning of the article. — 1343:

Over half the article was devoted to Child sacrifice in the Tanakh, despite the fact that the Tanakh condemns it, and there's very little evidence it actually happened. This is a classic case of

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Margaret Barker claims that the winged being on the top of the painting is Isaac's soul leaving his body, and not the angel telling Abraham to stop the sacrifice as per the Genesis' account.

1435:. How can it be neutral to show a document is correct, by referencing itself? Please though feel free to add any academic references when I have added mine. I look forward to reading them. 2345: 1588:, appears to be a polemic against the doctrine of Biblical inerrancy, which is all well and good for those who like that sort of thing, but not really academic either. It was published by 2222: 774:

Through medieval times, when people built new buildings, walls or bridges, little children were sealed in them alive as "foundation sacrifices" to ward off the angry, avenging spirits.

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No, it is hyperbole to claim that this is akin to Holocaust denial. In many cases, the evidence of child sacrifice is thin and could be blood libel instead of truth. (e.g. Carthage)

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uses in Africa; why not separate that out? A few uses of the word "alledged" would go a long way toward making this more NPOV. I'll make a start, but much more help will be needed.

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I'm sure this is not intended to be serious? Where's the connection to the topic? Isn't this like calling human sacrifice to be related to drafting men and women into the milatery?

999:(a Mexican Wikipedian) argues that the physical evidence of human and child sacrifice supports a number that is far less than is generally reported. I have worked with and trust 2240: 2236: 1578:; there's no Knowledge article about him, and he's not an academic, though he does appear to have (in the past) been associated in some way with a small religious institution ( 1624:

Here is the next batch of academic quotes. Please advise if anyone does not consider these authors to be reputable academics before I add them to this section. Thank you.

2178: 849:"The serpent goddess of the Aztecs demanded skull and heart sacrifice of children, including the eating of the children's bodies and covering themselves with their blood." 636:

Egad, this article needs help. it especially needs a citation or two. For instance, the line about drug-dealers has nothing to do with the rest of the allegations. There

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Yes it is actually the basement of the tzompamtli, the antropologist W Arens calculated that to have so many skulls the tzompantli would have measure about 100 Km long...

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Jon D. Levenson, Susan Nidditch and Susan Ackerman have stated that at least in some part child sacrifice was part of ancient Israelite Yahwistic cultic practice.

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I've removed this paragraph; if nothing else it is off topic, since the opening definition is about placating/pleasing supernatural entities, and none of these are.

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Those are all names within the Roman Catholic church, though. You're not going to find statues of Mary in Baptist churches, whether in New York, Texas, or Russia.

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where you will find 'When describing other people's contributions or edits, use diffs.' Please review my previous comments on 'unsourced junk' and the lack of

1241:(FCE, 1975 and still in print). He is one of the main Mexican archeologists that has discovered, unearthed and studied many monuments and pre-Hispanic sites. — 2413:"Barker also notes that wall paintings in the ancient Dura-Europos synagogue explicitly show Isaac being sacrificed, followed by his soul traveling to heaven" 2096:

There was no practice of cannibalism in Europe until the 17th century. Cannibalism in Europe, except in cases of extremis, is unheard of since pre-Roman times.

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like i said a large chunk of the Tophet article is about comparing the biblical accounts to Carthage & Yahwhism itself and is less about the place Tophet

1016:

Similarly, the truth is that there is no direct documentary or unambiguous physical evidence that proves that Carthaginians practiced child sacrifice. Read

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I'd really like to see more of the actual evidence for child sacrifice in Middle Eastern Cultures here. It'd be nice if somebody could add something.

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Jesus counts as child sacrifice because his child-like characteristics (innocence, purity, et cetera) are emphasized. As well, he's sacrificed by his

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I removed some phrases of the Aztec section that I relocated in the “physical evidence” section since they already appear in the linked article

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Rm "(Salome demanding the head of John the Baptist is another indication.) The subject is Child sacrifice; John the Baptist was not a child.

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This is a controversial issue and we might weaken the statement (e.g. what is meant by "in many cases"?) but the assertion has some validity.

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but it also mentions Yahweh & Hasdrubal's wife which have nothing to do with tophet rather than the general practice of child sacrifice

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Binding of Isaac depicted along with the sacrificial lamb and a winged being. Barker claims this winged being is Isaac's soul (questionable)

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have stated that at least some Israelites believed that the practice of child sacrifice was a legitimate part of ancient Israelite religion.

1596:, so please go ahead and find actually notable academics who support his views and provide those references. As it stands, the insertion is 1564: 1078: 2659: 2359: 1766:

You know the sources and what you want to add, and it would probably make more sense to have the more experienced editor do the reviewing.

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https://web.archive.org/web/20110928130439/http://www.ugpulse.com/articles/daily/news.asp?about=Child%20survives%20sacrifice&ID=7046

2090: 1245: 1208: 2148: 1671: 1299: 1055:) are untruly accused of killing children and drinking their blood. The blood libel was then used as an excuse to attack these groups ( 79: 2326: 1790:

Here is the suggested addition, which should be placed below the para that starts In Leviticus 18:21, 20:3 and Deuteronomy ..........

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Quoting from the New International Version, Genesis 22:10-13: "Then he reached out his hand and took the knife to slay his son. But

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I thought the feathered serpent, Quetzalcoatl, was male, and again, the sacrifices were primarily war prisoners. Counter-arguments?

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And if you're still bitching about it then remove the qualifier "great" from the sentence. How hard could that have been?? -- ark

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before the word Israelite, as the idea that there was a single Israelite religion is POV, and not really relevant here anyway.

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Child soldiers, and the use of children by guerillas, are a large subject, but a different one from child sacrifice, I think.

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Could we discuss evidence for/against these examples? We want to include the best-proven examples, I'd think. My comments in

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sacrifice in western Europe is less documented. Even cannibalism was practised by Europeans as recent as the 17th century:

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have stated that at least some Israelites believed child sacrifice was a legitimate part of the ancient Israelite religion.

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academic references. The present material relies on the Tanakh only, and is therefore only giving a single point of view.

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Never heard of this, and how would they know it was to the "Great Goddess" when the existence of such a figure is arguable?

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The distinction between venerate and worship is irrelevant in this discussion. And I believe you're wrong, the Virgin Mary

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The opposite seems to be the truth regarding this sentence in opening paragraph. Consensus seems to be just the opposite:

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Huh? He is sacrificed, with his own consent, *to* his father by other humans. That is hardly an insignificant distinction.

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https://web.archive.org/web/20060907102900/http://projectsx.dartmouth.edu/classics/history/bronze_age/lessons/les/15.html

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There are many in-dept studies on this topic, that show how the way children were considered has evolved during time.

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I'd opt for the traditional Knowledge compromise - break it off to a separate page, and put a link on this one. :)

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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the

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What on earth has the photograph to do with the subject? - Please remove! Nuremberg - Ángel.García ~ ~ ~ ~

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sacrifice of children, including the eating of the children's bodies and covering themselves with their blood.

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Does anyone have evidence that pagan Arabians practiced child sacrifice? I think it is what Qur'an says, but

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The above claim should be removed unless it can be demonstrated (sources!, sources!) that it's indeed the

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mountains. These are thought to be child sacrifices, probably from royal households, to mountain spirits.

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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with

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true but the list here is too long and tophet is already quite broad, half of the article is carthage

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Nanahuatzin is right. But the 4,000 figure of adult victims in the consecration rite seems accurate. —

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Highly biased interpretation of wall painting contents in Dura-Europos synagogue is being presented

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city, they engaged in post-war propaganda to make their archenemies seem cruel and less civilized".

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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join

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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between

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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between

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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template

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http://www.ugpulse.com/articles/daily/news.asp?about=Child%20survives%20sacrifice&ID=7046

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In many cases, archaeologists have found evidence that suggests that the prevalence of child

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to be sacrificed by humans. He's effectively sacrificed by his father. And I've never heard

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Maybe we should move the source list to Tophet and maybe add the Arabs & Guanches too

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He went over and took the ram and sacrificed it as a burnt offering instead of his son"

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That's an important insight you should keep in mind, though probably not relevant here.

2612: 2583: 2555: 2527: 2506: 2472: 2398: 2225:, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by 70: 2522:

maybe rename/create a new article called Child sacrifice in the Mediterranean Region?

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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with

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So let me see your efforts at entering this new material then, and I will then review.

1221: 750:, was male, and again, the sacrifices were primarily war prisoners. Counter-arguments? 2382: 2349: 1601: 1348: 1122: 1075: 1030: 51: 235: 1619: 1252: 1224: 1189: 1000: 996: 962: 886: 161: 2313: 2299: 2193:

http://projectsx.dartmouth.edu/classics/history/bronze_age/lessons/les/15.html#20

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Please use that instead, and please make sure to format the citations correctly.

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This one I've read about recently and seems well confirmed; I re-worded it a bit.

265: 24: 2594: 2565: 2537: 2517: 2488: 2293: 2045: 1575: 1505: 1501: 1488: 1432: 1305: 1280: 2231:. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than 1594:"it is a widely held academic view. I can provide more references if you wish" 845:

As an anthropology student, I thought I could add my two cents in this topic:

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And here is another. Moshe Greenberg, in a commentary on Ezikiel writes that

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I hadn't heard of this; I'd heard that adult war-captives were used. Anyone?

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turn tophet into a broader article or reduce to tophet to create a new one

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dynamic. The Eucharist is ritual cannibalism. Geez, what more do you want?

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Abraham looked up and there in a thicket he saw a ram caught by its horns.

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Young children were buried with their skulls split by an ax at Woodhenge/

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OK, I cleaned up the formatting of the references and added it for you.

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child sacrifice was a legitimate part of the ancient Israelite religion.

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Why is this in the second paragraph? This should be moved further down.

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Those are good academic sources. How do you wish to use this material?

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the problem is the failure of the Aztec articles to discuss this topic.

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and he believes that the evidence for child sacrifice is thin. --

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progress. Further similarities have been be drawn with abortion.

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large segments of Israelite communities of various periods.”

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in using the Tanakh as the sole source of evaluating itself.

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http://www.conaculta.gob.mx/saladeprensa/2002/25mar/tlaloc.htm

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A more accurate and neutral presentation would be as follows:

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large segments of Israelite communities of various periods.”

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When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the

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This article has been marked as needing immediate attention.

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http://edition.cnn.com/2013/05/01/us/jamestown-cannibalism/

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for some evidence of this. The debate about this issue on

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for additional information. I made the following changes:

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to have it be removed if others agree that it should be.

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i do not agree, but please go ahead and make the change.

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Now just an excercise.. fast, how many skull are here?:

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http://www.psychohistory.com/htm/eln08_childrearing.html

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children have been found, with evidence of cannibalism.

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other Middle Eastern Cultures (chiefly through the God

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Do not speculate on the 'motives' of others. Follow

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the angel of the Lord called out to him from heaven

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http://www.eiu.edu/~historia/2005/AztecChildren.pdf

1043:Similar in concept but different in meaning is the 2035:"Ancient Near East" doesn't tell the whole picture 2641: 778:In what cultures? What evidence has been found? 33:for general discussion of the article's subject. 1796:Add in the quotes below in the references. 640:allegations of modern child sacrifices, as per 279:, a project to improve Knowledge's articles on 2327:Wiki Education assignment: English 1102 NET 65 2221:This message was posted before February 2018. 1173:http://www.delange.org/TemMayor3/Dsc00028a.jpg 958:view among scholars (which I very much doubt 1084:If no objections I'll remove both sentences. 720:sacrificed their daughters to "the mothers". 174: 1347:, and your edits are becoming increasingly 760:children are still being discovered in the 188: 677:Is cannibalism necessarily child sacrifice 534:. These are hardly insignificant details. 523:all humans, of any age, were once children 2360:Wiki Education assignment: Composition II 2161:I have just modified 2 external links on 1167:http://pekingduck.org/archives/skulls.jpg 925:Child sacrifice in pre-Columbian cultures 2440: 1449:Do not speculate on my emotional state; 1059:being one term for this kind of attack). 2642: 1553:http://humanfacesofgod.com/?page_id=15 2210:to let others know (documentation at 1549:http://humanfacesofgod.com/?page_id=8 698:Decapitated infant sacrifices to the 1574:does not appear to meet Knowledge's 390:This article is within the scope of 271:This article is within the scope of 184: 2660:Religion articles needing attention 475:Miscellaneous 2002-2006 discussions 207:It is of interest to the following 23:for discussing improvements to the 13: 2374: 2370: 2341: 2337: 340: 14: 2686: 2165:. Please take a moment to review 746:I thought the feathered serpent, 632:Sorry we questioned you on this. 2655:Mid-importance Religion articles 2377:. Further details are available 2364: 2344:. Further details are available 2331: 1264:Child Sacrifice in pagan Arabia? 383: 362: 258: 248: 234: 220: 189: 45:Click here to start a new topic. 2076:Child Sacrifice In Pagan Europe 1097:Blood libel or being on denial? 1047:, in which groups (such as the 669:Decapitated skeletons of early 430:This article has been rated as 327:This article has been rated as 2617:21:01, 15 September 2024 (UTC) 2603:20:54, 15 September 2024 (UTC) 2588:20:52, 15 September 2024 (UTC) 2574:20:48, 15 September 2024 (UTC) 2560:20:41, 15 September 2024 (UTC) 2546:20:32, 15 September 2024 (UTC) 2532:20:30, 15 September 2024 (UTC) 2511:18:31, 15 September 2024 (UTC) 2497:17:19, 15 September 2024 (UTC) 2477:16:52, 15 September 2024 (UTC) 2458:15:02, 24 September 2023 (UTC) 2117: 927:. Repetition is unnecessary. — 914:07:07, 16 September 2006 (UTC) 551:say that Jesus was sacrificed 307:Knowledge:WikiProject Religion 1: 2675:Mid-importance Death articles 2665:WikiProject Religion articles 2650:Start-Class Religion articles 2536:I'm not sure why we should?-- 2393:— Assignment last updated by 2308:23:18, 13 February 2017 (UTC) 2289:02:47, 22 November 2016 (UTC) 2091:12:21, 18 November 2014 (UTC) 2054:17:49, 22 February 2014 (UTC) 1991:17:13, 25 December 2011 (UTC) 1980:13:49, 25 December 2011 (UTC) 1960:22:49, 20 December 2011 (UTC) 1950:19:03, 20 December 2011 (UTC) 1923:21:43, 18 December 2011 (UTC) 1884:20:33, 18 December 2011 (UTC) 1849:18:25, 18 December 2011 (UTC) 1818:14:54, 17 December 2011 (UTC) 1771:20:25, 13 December 2011 (UTC) 1762:17:51, 13 December 2011 (UTC) 1748:14:08, 13 December 2011 (UTC) 1738:07:31, 13 December 2011 (UTC) 1723:00:50, 13 December 2011 (UTC) 1713:23:51, 12 December 2011 (UTC) 1690:23:44, 12 December 2011 (UTC) 1676:23:38, 12 December 2011 (UTC) 1646:23:30, 12 December 2011 (UTC) 1614:22:48, 12 December 2011 (UTC) 1565:22:28, 12 December 2011 (UTC) 1542:Thom Stark. Removal of quote. 404:and see a list of open tasks. 310:Template:WikiProject Religion 42:Put new text under old text. 2149:00:47, 6 December 2014 (UTC) 2106:00:48, 6 December 2014 (UTC) 2070:22:18, 17 January 2024 (UTC) 2029:12:58, 23 October 2013 (UTC) 1171:and how many can fit here?: 1039:Re this opening sentence —: 724:Never heard of this. Anyone? 580:22:18, 17 January 2024 (UTC) 7: 1580:Emmanuel Christian Seminary 1576:requirements for notability 1239:Muerte al filo de obsidiana 730:The serpent goddess of the 410:Knowledge:WikiProject Death 50:New to Knowledge? Welcome! 10: 2691: 2670:Start-Class Death articles 2322:21:15, 30 March 2017 (UTC) 2252:(last update: 5 June 2024) 2158:Hello fellow Wikipedians, 1491:and my previous comments. 1386:at the end of your comment 1300:12:20, 18 March 2008 (UTC) 1275:removed this statement as 1256:10:02, 14 March 2007 (UTC) 1246:09:41, 14 March 2007 (UTC) 1228:09:16, 14 March 2007 (UTC) 1209:04:48, 14 March 2007 (UTC) 1193:04:20, 14 March 2007 (UTC) 1139:23:32, 13 March 2007 (UTC) 1126:22:50, 13 March 2007 (UTC) 1115:22:08, 13 March 2007 (UTC) 1092:18:34, 13 March 2007 (UTC) 1079:19:30, 13 March 2007 (UTC) 1068:18:34, 13 March 2007 (UTC) 1034:19:30, 13 March 2007 (UTC) 970:18:34, 13 March 2007 (UTC) 932:08:14, 13 March 2007 (UTC) 904:11:58, 2 August 2006 (UTC) 436:project's importance scale 413:Template:WikiProject Death 333:project's importance scale 1590:Wipf and Stock Publishers 1518:09:22, 30 July 2011 (UTC) 1496:22:50, 29 July 2011 (UTC) 1483:18:19, 26 July 2011 (UTC) 1465:22:01, 25 July 2011 (UTC) 1445:12:05, 25 July 2011 (UTC) 1427:itself, and is therefore 1422:21:55, 24 July 2011 (UTC) 1408:21:40, 24 July 2011 (UTC) 1393:20:58, 24 July 2011 (UTC) 1371:20:55, 24 July 2011 (UTC) 1356:20:27, 24 July 2011 (UTC) 1338:19:49, 24 July 2011 (UTC) 1323:19:19, 15 June 2011 (UTC) 889:08:42, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC) 518:, Saturday, June 15, 2002 514:sacrificing only adults. 494:as incest exists. -- ark 467:23:07, 2 March 2009 (UTC) 429: 378: 348: 326: 243: 215: 80:Be welcoming to newcomers 1284:20:19, 16 May 2007 (UTC) 1025:worked with and respect 297:standards, or visit the 2403:14:26, 4 May 2023 (UTC) 2154:External links modified 2009:Opening photograph - ?? 1607:"stop the edit warring" 2446: 1915: 1874: 1841: 1585:The Human Faces of God 1380:, taking into account 1061: 952: 345: 197:This article is rated 75:avoid personal attacks 2444: 2381:. Student editor(s): 2348:. Student editor(s): 2134:"Post-war propaganda" 1896: 1859: 1826: 1431:and certainly is not 1041: 943: 344: 100:Neutral point of view 2233:regular verification 1966:Dalai lama ding dong 1942:Dalai lama ding dong 1911:that the practice of 1876:Dalai lama ding dong 1810:Dalai lama ding dong 1754:Dalai lama ding dong 1730:Dalai lama ding dong 1705:Dalai lama ding dong 1664:Dalai lama ding dong 1638:Dalai lama ding dong 1582:). The book itself, 1557:Dalai lama ding dong 1510:Dalai lama ding dong 1475:Dalai lama ding dong 1437:Dalai lama ding dong 1400:Dalai lama ding dong 1363:Dalai lama ding dong 1330:Dalai lama ding dong 1315:Dalai lama ding dong 1018:Religion in Carthage 543:Actually, he's sent 275:WikiProject Religion 105:No original research 2223:After February 2018 2202:parameter below to 2447: 2379:on the course page 2346:on the course page 2277:InternetArchiveBot 2228:InternetArchiveBot 482:I don't think so. 346: 287:assess and improve 203:content assessment 86:dispute resolution 47: 2253: 2019:comment added by 1918:Is that correct? 1679: 1662:comment added by 1277:original research 450: 449: 446: 445: 442: 441: 393:WikiProject Death 357: 356: 353: 352: 313:Religion articles 301:for more details. 183: 182: 66:Assume good faith 43: 2682: 2521: 2405: 2387:article contribs 2376: 2372: 2368: 2354:article contribs 2343: 2339: 2335: 2287: 2278: 2251: 2250: 2229: 2217: 2126: 2121: 2031: 1983: 1678: 1656: 1378:reliable sources 1001:User:Nanahuatzin 997:User:Nanahuatzin 963:Holocaust denial 937:Holocaust denial 919:subsection added 877:- Miguel Chavez 516:Vicki Rosenzweig 501:Vicki Rosenzweig 418: 417: 414: 411: 408: 387: 380: 379: 374: 366: 359: 358: 315: 314: 311: 308: 305: 299:wikiproject page 268: 263: 262: 252: 245: 244: 239: 238: 237: 232: 224: 217: 216: 200: 194: 193: 185: 179: 178: 164: 95:Article policies 16: 2690: 2689: 2685: 2684: 2683: 2681: 2680: 2679: 2640: 2639: 2515: 2465: 2411: 2392: 2371:17 January 2023 2362: 2338:24 January 2022 2329: 2296: 2281: 2276: 2244: 2237:have permission 2227: 2211: 2171:this simple FaQ 2163:Child sacrifice 2156: 2136: 2131: 2130: 2129: 2122: 2118: 2078: 2037: 2014: 2011: 1973: 1899:Jon D. Levenson 1891:in some circles 1862:Jon D. Levenson 1829:Jon D. Levenson 1657: 1622: 1609:. Jes' sayin'. 1544: 1308: 1266: 1204:calculations. — 1099: 1009:User:Madman2001 991:If you look on 939: 921: 901:195.188.241.124 756:The mummies of 477: 455: 415: 412: 409: 406: 405: 372: 312: 309: 306: 303: 302: 266:Religion portal 264: 257: 233: 230: 201:on Knowledge's 198: 121: 116: 115: 114: 91: 61: 25:Child sacrifice 12: 11: 5: 2688: 2678: 2677: 2672: 2667: 2662: 2657: 2652: 2638: 2637: 2636: 2635: 2634: 2633: 2632: 2631: 2630: 2629: 2628: 2627: 2626: 2625: 2624: 2623: 2622: 2621: 2620: 2619: 2464: 2461: 2438: 2410: 2407: 2361: 2358: 2328: 2325: 2295: 2292: 2271: 2270: 2263: 2196: 2195: 2187:Added archive 2185: 2177:Added archive 2155: 2152: 2135: 2132: 2128: 2127: 2115: 2114: 2110: 2109: 2108: 2083:AtheistIranian 2077: 2074: 2073: 2072: 2036: 2033: 2010: 2007: 2006: 2005: 2004: 2003: 2002: 2001: 2000: 1999: 1998: 1997: 1996: 1995: 1994: 1993: 1978:comment added 1930: 1929: 1928: 1927: 1926: 1925: 1916: 1907:Susan Ackerman 1903:Susan Nidditch 1894: 1870:Susan Ackerman 1866:Susan 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