Talk:Assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand/Archive 3

1026:

Austria (as determined by the Allied commission on responsibility for the War had determined) were not responsible for the war but Serbia were. The article needs the addition of the facts that a) both the Serbian and the Austrian governments denied that a telegram was sent or a warning was given about any plot, b) both the Serbians and the Austrians did confirm that a loose discussion about risks in Sarajevo by JJ took place with Belinski on the 5th June (not the 21st) and c) that Jovan Jovanovic and Pasic always denied that they ever had any forwarding of the plot. Ljuba Jovanovic was an opposition politician to Pasic. In 1914 he was head of National Defence and the Sokol sports clubs (both of which the Austrian legal investigations during the Banja Luka processes of 1915 and 16 found to be responsible for the assassinations – a connection they failed to pin on Apis and the Black Hand) and this may have driven his story about a government discussion on the subject. He used the article to switch blame for the assassinations from himself and National Defence (whom Ciganovic, Tankosic and Jovanovic (the border officer) - all those named in the Sarajevo Trial as involved in the plot on the Serbian side - were all allegedly members of) onto Pasic in one foul move and then used it to unseat Pasic (in spite two other ministers from the time coming out against LJ and in support of Pasic’s denial). He then went on to try to orchestrate a Coup to become the next Prime Minister which his own party rejected and then later expelled him from the party. Notably he was the only member of the government to ever make such an allegation and when Pasic denied it (with the support of two other ex-minister) none of the others raised a voice to claim Pasic was a liar. LJ was also the minister who ordered the Salonika trials – now proved to be illegitimate – and who supplied the information that killed Apis and his friends – he then published an article claiming that he was against the trial and exonerated himself but had clearly done nothing to stop the process – hence I find his press stories self-interested and less than honest. This is not to say that Pasic was an exemplary politician, I have no interest in whether he was or was not but in this instance I cannot believe LJ because he has too much to gain and absolutely no supporters or means of corroboration for making a convenient lie in his 1924 Slavic Blood article. Many alleged historians tried over the years to create arguments to blame Pasic but all of them have since been proved to be lies, only Magrini's claim about Lescanin stands and that is deeply flawed in too many ways to debate here. The reader should ask themselves whether the Serbian ambassador in Vienna was really going to commit treason by ignoring a direct order and then tell one of his juniors he had done that, let alone expect to get away with it when general protocol dictated that they reported back on the success of all disclosures, and if indeed he did fail to comply with his Prime Minister's direct order, how in heaven name did he not get fired on the spot when the act of treason was discovered? You also need to ask yourself why it was that Magrini and George Stevens (the Telegraph journalist whom Magrini claims was present when Lescanin spoke) both failed to publish the revelation in 1915 and Magrini sat on it until 1929 (by which time both Lescanin and Stevens were dead and unable to refute or confirm the claim. Finally it is completely wrong to suggest that JJ was inconsistent in his account - he was totally consistent in all instances 'no a thousand times no!' Albertini claims that the fact that Magrini claimed he would not be drawn into discussion on the topic meant that all his other denials were a lie (you can believe that logic if you like but I am more careful in whom I believe and whom I don't, having invested considerable time in the primary material not other people's inventions or hearsay (which is all that Magrini's account of Lescanin is), I go with Berchtold, Pasic and Jovan Jovanovic, all of which confirmed the same story and had no reason to agree with eachother. Honestly a newspaper comes up with a story on 30th June, Austria deny it, Serbia deny it, a bunch of people latch onto the story and attempt to verify it disasterously unsuccessfully, eventually Magrini comes up with an account 15 years too late when all witnesses are dead and Albertini (his best mate and a man dedicated to blaming the war on the Serbs) uses that as a basis to refute the timely testimony of the Austrians and the Serbs and latches on to Ljuba Jovanovic's unsupported story as a disgruntled rival politician with Nazi sympathies as his only corroboration. Don't just tell one side of the story - put both and don't claim Jovan M Jovanovic Pizon was inconsistent when he certainly was not.

597:

whether they are in the second or third car, he makes no note that they have moved up the order and hence one should assume they are still in third position. He states that he saw the first car turn into FJS and told Lojka to not to take the turn. So it is clear that the forerunning cars all made the turn, so it was not just Lojka who was not advised to the change of plan. Indeed reading Potiorek's statement it is entirely possible that the decision to continue on the Appel Quay was only made by Potiorek once inside the car. In reviewing the lucidity of this statement one has to question two things; a) why given the need to slow the car to a near halt to turn the car into FJS and the time between the cars Potiorek did not manage to stop Lojka making the turn until he had actually done so, b) why they did not continue along FJS once the turn had been made as it led more directly to the garrison hospital than the Appel Quay and surely there was greater safety in remaining in the convoy than stopping, reversing and then continuing along the Appel Quay, where the Bomb had previously been thrown alone - not to mention the issue of the trailing car blocking their ability to back out of FJS. Lojka is said to have complained (this is verified in his obit) that he was faced with conflicting instructions, Potiorek saying reverse and Sophie shouting not to and to simply continue. Read what you may from these facts.

1270:

a thing or two up about someone already dead by the time of his invention, with the intention of making money by publishing it. My concern is heightened by the fact that there is utterly no mention of any warning in any of the Serbian diplomatic papers or in the AH papers. Surely had these statements been issued (and again we have no reference to find these alleged unsanctioned statements by just two of Serbia's ambassadors - normally this would be a statement from the government issued by all ambassadors and not just two) there would be correspondence about the statements in the diplomatic papers of the Serbians and even if you believe that they might have destroyed the record, why is there not alarmed communications from the AH ambassadors in France and Russia to Vienna in the AH diplomatic files noting the issuing of these highly incriminating documents so that the AH foreign office could use them for appropriate purpose. Please do not suggest that the AH's destroyed the records also as that is frankly preposterous. If this statement is to remain as it is I feel that there needs to be a note that Albertini is the only commentator to make these observations and that there is no reference to these statements in any of the diplomatic papers and hence their production has to be questioned.

1127:

and being tortured he made a statement admitting the crime and claiming that a fellow defendant Malobabic (executed with him) was the one who supplied the weapons was the go between and trained P,C & G, when in fact the trial in all cases claims that this was Ciganovic and Tankosic. Apis's last ditch confession to try to safe himself from the firing squad after torture really is not a good basis for saying that he ordered this assassination. Perhaps he did but personally I doubt it mainly because of the people who executed the action and how badly it was done. Apis was head of the Serbian Secret Service, Serbia were the most successful military nation of the 20th Century, they had just won two major wars and doubled their territory. He had well trained marksmen who spoke the local language, fitted into the culture and needed no training to fire a gun or throw a bomb - there is zero chance he would hand such a job to a bunch of incompetent students even if you believe he thought the assassination was a good idea.

85:

point, Taylor claimed that Princip contacted Major Vojislav Tankosić simply because he was the one who had rejected Princip for military service in the First Balkan War, and so Tankosić was the only man Princip knew who might be able to furnish him with weapons. Thus Princip never realized he was in contact with the Black Hand (and Serbian Intelligence). Finally, Taylor claimed that the Serbian government became aware of agents being infiltrated into Bosnia, and investigated, which led to Tankosić revealing the plot to Apis, who had been unaware of it. According to Taylor the Black Hand's leadership ordered the assassination be halted, which Apis passed to Tankosić who passed it to Ilić, who told Princip, who ignored it, not being a member of the Black Hand or Serbian Intelligence.

356:

who was the provincial governor, and 'Hofbüchenspanner' Schneiberg, on the 4 car, owned by Alexander, Count Boos-Waldeck, rode (besides its owner) LtCol Merizzi, ADC to Potiorek, Countess Vilma Lanjus, the duchess' lady in waiting, and others, the 5 car was owned by 1 Lt Egger, the general representative of Fiat automobiles in Austria, the 6 car was owned by 2 Lt Grein with his brother, also a 2 Lt, on board, and finally there was car n° 7. The latter three vehicles transported the other members of the archduke's entourage, including his ADC Col Dr. Bardolff, his majordomo Maj (ret'd) Baron Rumerskirch, his chamberlain 1 Lt Baron Dr. Morsey, Maj Hüttenbrenner, and his personal physician Dr. Fischer, and some more persons -- altogether enough personnel to need seven vehicles.

1530:"The political objective of the assassination was to free Bosnia and Herzegovina of Austria-Hungarian rule and establish a common South Slav ("Yugoslav") state. The assassination precipitated the July Crisis which led to Austria-Hungary declaring war on Serbia and the start of World War I." - Where is this stated? The political objective of the assassins was to enable Serb imperialism - that is, expansion of Serbia onto Austrian territory. Yugoslavia was a post-war political compromise, but that does not make it the assassin's goal. It is like saying that Hitler's goal was creation of the Soviet empire and the Iron Curtain. 1637: 1214:"In charge of these" seems a tad colloquial/vague. "Right-hand man" is an English idiom/a bit too indirect (and doesn't automatically translate to other languages) I also couldn't find a source for this dynamic of their relationship. Additionally, "the spy" is a bit more colloquial than saying something like "intelligence officer", but I think either is unnecessary as it's more clear to indicate the actual point-- that all three men listed were members of the Serbian military (and the specifics of their ranks/positions can be found on their respective pages). 89:

the act of an independent student radical with a handful of cronies. I am not arguing that this is correct, not by any means. However, I do believe it's relevant enough to be mentioned (and rebutted directly) within the article, because AJP Taylor's "War by Timetable" is among the most influential histories of the causes of the First World War - Taylor is even cited by this article. Given the number of people who have read "War by Timetable" or at least been exposed to Taylor's argument, I think a direct mention is warranted.

31: 530:

Town Hall to the hospital, the issue is the circumstances in which he turned right. It was said that he had been misinformed of the changed route - which was to be along the Appel Quay where the first bomb was thrown - and was turning to follow "the original route which would have taken them to the National Museum" (Fatal Shooting section). This firstly makes no sense as he and the other drivers were instructed to head to the hospital to visit the wounded.

2161: 1589: 1381: 1158: 129: 1908:- First, that discussion either was not available to a reviewer, or was only available via an unobvious link. (I thought that I read the applicable discussion. Either there wasn't a link to the Teahouse archive, or I missed it.) A reviewer cannot be expected to search archives for a title. Second, I do not read that discussion as being a consensus to keep it redirected anyway. Third, I thought that there was a : --> 1234: 999:°grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrsddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddsssssssssssssssfffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv≠≥≤±±±±±§§··→→→←←÷÷×−±≥≤≠″ 2210: 1429: 186: 472:

knowledge of that leniency. As for Knowledge being pro-Serb ignoring alleged Serbian fascists in WWII one has to ask what deluded planet the previous commentator comes from considering the fact that the massive cover up of Croat Fascist atrocities in Bosnia during WWII - you do realise that hundreds of thousands of Serbs were exterminated in Ustasa concentration camps in WWII?

1057:

well there is a hole in the side of the car from the bullet that killed Sophie which must therefore have come from outside the car, not point blank range, what is more had Princip been on the running board and shot from there anyone in the car could have wrestled the gun away from him before he shot. QED the runningboard story must have been wrong on 30th June.

1952:

say in a dedicated article, and it would be consistent with how we treat all other participants. It makes a strange experience for a reader who researches the assassins to get redirected to the main assassination article only for Čabrinović, as if we're hiding something. And I say that as a convinced

581:

These remarks about "bilge" are completely unfair. The fact is Franz Ferdinand was not a popular man in Austria, nor in Hungary, nor in Serbia. Many people wanted to see him gotten rid of; and in fact, a 7-man hit team was assembled in Sarajevo to do just that. It is completely correct historiography

545:

Hence it is difficult NOT to conclude that Lojka (i.e. the imperial couples' driver) is complicit in the assassination for having not followed the first car. Potiorek's complicity is much less likely as he reasonably & innocently told the driver to stop to regain the agreed new course along Appel

537:

1) Given that Lojka alone turned right, the question is: why would he then deviate from the convoy route? - and just at the place where Prinzip was waiting at or in the café! This implies some prearranged setup - especially as Lojka's name has been 'corrected' from an original name published for the

1269:

I note the reference to Albertini claiming that the Serbian ambassadors to France and Russia issued statements claiming that Serbia had warned AH of the assassination plans. This all seems very far fetched to me and very much like the work of Magrini who was an imaginative man not adverse to making

355:

From the start, the first car transported the 'detectives' i.e. the special police, on the 2 car rode Dr. E. Gerde, chief of the constabulary together with Fehim Eff. Curcic, the mayor, on the 3 car, owned by Count Harrach, rode (besides its owner) the archduke, the duchess, Feldzeugmeister Potiorek

2082:

fwiw, I think the policy/precedent case for a merge/redirect is strong from the arguments already given (again, there really isn't much more here, aside from the tuberculosis bit, in this article or the older version), but personally I nevertheless think it's a good article to have, for the sake of

1510:

The first 1-2 lines mentions the ethnic and national identities of those who participated in the assassination plot. Why is only one person's religion listed? This is obvious Islamophobia. If the religious affiliations of all persons are identified, then that's fair. If one Muslims is made to stick

1109:

Greg King writes that Muhamed Mehmedbašić recruited Danilo Ilić, and confusingly that Apis did not know of a "second plot" by Young Bosnia members to kill the Archduke but then suggested it, when in fact Ilić recruited Mehmedbašić and Apis ordered the assassination. This is from a quick look at one

1052:

The article states that Princip mounted the running board and shot from Point blank range. However in the trial he is quite clear that he was four or five paces away from the car when he fired the pistol. I appreciate that some clot has published a book in 2013 stating that he was closer but this

605:

The date of Archduke Franz Ferdinand's assassination is listed in the subtitle of this article on my Samsung Galaxy S7 cell phone as "28 June 1917", whereas, in fact, the assassination date was "28 June 1914". On my Windows 10 PC, there isn't a subtitle for this article, and thus this mistake does

529:

The question of why the archduke's driver, Leopold Lojka (so-called) turned right off the Appel Quay - as illustrated in the diagram - is not adequately explained. Since the royal couple and Lojka are described as "once again in the third car" (Town Hall reception para. 3) for the journey from the

369:

Once again: the first assassination attempt by Cabrinovic's bomb rendered the car of Count Boos-Waldeck unservicable, i.e. from this moment the motorcade proceeding towards the town hall consisted of only six cars. There was not only one vehicle less; there were also less persons taking part in the

2091:

by its nature is overwhelmingly large and unhelpfully presented. There's no heading about him, and biographical details on him are scattered throughout the article. I think it can be very helpful to have a separate article for individual participants in this kind of case, provided care is taken to

1126:

I am with you on some of this but I am not sure that you can claim so boldly that Apis ordered the assassination. The only evidence for this is Apis's fourth statement at the Salonika Trial, (a trial thrown out as unreliable 40 years later by the supreme court) after making three previous denials

1056:

Just discovered the Telegraph story of 30 June 1914 which states that Princip was on the Running Board and shot form there, this does pose an issue and an important inconsistency in the testimonies, he plainly cannot have been both a number of paces away and on the running board; so which is true,

1025:

This article is too reliant upon Albertini and really owes it to the public to look properly at the primary facts - something which Albertini never did, being too focused on finding reasons to support his fascist patrons Mussolini, Pavelic and Hitler's aims of convincing the world that Germany and

541:

2) Conversely, if the first car had turned right - and Lojka immediately follow them - then the issue transfers to the driver in the first car who would then have been leading Lojka off the new course along Appel Quay. However this is implied not to be what happened given that "Governor Potiorek,

424:

Franz Count Harrach was not a regular offr, he was a member of the Imperial and Royal Volunteers' Automobil Corps and as such he held the rank of 1 Lt (the highest rank those car owners who had had no previous mil service could raise to at that time). Members of the Automobil Corps were regularly

88:

Taylor constructed an argument that Serbia bore effectively no responsibility for Franz Ferdinand's death (especially since it was juxtaposed with a description of the laxity of Austro-Hungarian security and Serbia's ignored hints about a possible assassination attempt) and that it was essentially

448:

Princip`s ONLY goal was to kill Ferdinand because he supported federalization of the monarchy, which would include unification of Bosnia with Croatia. "Yugoslavia" was always a code word for Greater Serbia. And Bosnia was part of Serbia only in their myths. This "encyclopedia" is pro Serb on many

596:

Bilge or not the questions posed by the first correspondent above are mainly resolved by the statement of general Potiorek given at the trial and posted to Emperor Franz Josef on the evening of the assassination - subsequently printed in the third person in the Reichspost. Potiorek is not clear

471:

Princip's statement as specified in the Austrian press and by Pfeffer (a Croat - not a Serb) does not mention any opposition to Franz Ferdinand himself or to his plans for a federal republic, his leniency towards Serbs (and Croats) is mentioned in the trial by the Judge and Cabrinovic confirms a

84:

AJP Taylor's "War by Timetable" argues that Serbia essentially had no involvement in the assassination of Franz Ferdinand. Taylor's argument is that Princip conceived of the attack himself, recruited three of the assassins including Danilo Ilić, who in turn recruited the other three. More to the

211:

The article seems to have him dying in the car 'Both victims remained seated upright, but died while being driven to the Governor's residence...' and then a few words later, alive when he arrived ' Sophie was dead on arrival at the Governor's residence. Franz Ferdinand died 10 minutes later'.

538:

driver (i.e. perhaps the driver was some lookalike). For Lojka (the driver of the imperial couple) to break the convoy idiosyncratically - hardly a normal response given the need for the cars to keep together after a bombing attack earlier - clearly implies his complicity.

542:

who was sharing the second vehicle with the Imperial couple, called out to the driver (implicity Lojka) to reverse and take the Quay to the hospital." Note however that the imperial couple are now in the second car and not the third car as stated in the previous paragraph.

1703:, has been submitted for review. There previously was an article on this assassin, but it was cut down to a redirect. There does not appear to have been discussion of whether to cut it down to a redirect. Should the draft be accepted as an article on this assassin? 1296:

The end of the fourth paragraph under the 'background' section where citations 14 and 15 are located - says it was 'whose goal was the dissolution of the Austria-Hungary.'. The Austria-Hungary what? Either add additional words to make 'the' necessary or remove 'the'.

2051:; if there's a half-decent biographical article (that's been around since 2006 and has 20+ interwikis) about an obscure but apparently real-world notable person, tag it if you must, AfD it if you feel like, but just boldly redirecting it amounts to deletion. 296:

When the motorcade started the city tour, it consisted of seven cars, the Highnesses riding in the third car. The bomb made the fourth car, owned by Alexander Count Boos zu Waldeck, unserviceable. So, when departing from the town hall, there were only six

1555:

Sentences were about: - more details about Apis testimony in court - Apis stated that (sg like this): "the Russian Embassy in Belgrade had prior knowledge of the assassination" and/or "with the knowledge and approval of the Russian Embassy in Belgrade"

404:

Thank you for the clarification, Peter. Would you perhaps like to add the above information in the article, to reflect the actual number of vehicles in the motorcade (which is given only as six)? I'll check Remak just out of curiosity to see what he

509:

leads to an article of an entirely different name, without any occurrence of the word, "Secret". Considering the parties involved, I suppose this would be considered hm, touchy, but I think the obvious discontinuity ought to be addressed somehow.

370:

journey to the town hall: the two injured offrs (Merizzi and Boos-Waldeck) were brought to the army hospital by some members of the archduke's entourage who later re-joined the archduke later while the reception at the town hall was proceeding.

563:

The Talk Pages are NOT for forum-like discussions on the topic, but the discussion of RELIABLE SOURCES for the improvement of the articles. Nor is it the place to post the most lamentable Original Research bilge. Please follow the TP rules.

281:, says there were only 5 vehicles with Ferdinand and Sophia riding behind the first vehicle. I feel it would be best to consult Albertini or Remak but I'm surprised there's this much confusion and discrepancies in the sources even today.-- 1997:- Do you have a different suggestion for how I could have accepted the draft and moved the articles? I can think of several possible series of article moves that would have been worse. Can you describe a better sequence of moves? 2039:

consistency. The assassination being a milestone historical event, there is a lot of historiographic coverage about the participants; we should not base our decisions just on what is currently in the articles, but on coverage which

1804:). Čabrinović's role in the movement and the assassination was very important, and all his comrades have separate articles at the moment. They all also have rather extensive coverage in historiographic literature. I'm unhappy how 1544: 1211:"Dragutin Dimitrijević, Major Vojislav Tankosić, and Rade Malobabić, members of the Serbian military, together orchestrated the conspiracy to assassinate the archduke, and provided weapons and other resources to the Black Hand." 1338:

An FN M1910, serial number 19074, chambered in .380 ACP was the handgun used by Gavrilo Princip to assassinate Archduke Franz Ferdinand of Austria in Sarajevo on June 28, 1914, the act that precipitated the First World War.

268:

I've recently been reading up on the literature of the breakout of the First World War and the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand. I've noticed one discrepancy I've come across is the number of vehicles in the motorcade.

1734:

sources such as KidsKonnect, biography.yourdictionary.com, firstworldwar.com, thevintagenews.com, ducksters.com, findagrave.com, history.com, thehistorycat.com and a couple of blogs... IMO it should be rewritten with

425:

called up for manouevers along with their drivers and their vehicles. -- It is a very common mistake to confuse the rank of LtCol with 1 Lt as their designations in German language differ in only two characters: Ober

2197: 1516: 1361: 1574: 244:"Alfred, 2nd Prince of Montenuovo, Franz Joseph's Chamberlain, hated Franz Ferdinand and Sophie with a passion and with the emperor's connivance, decided to turn the funeral into a massive and vicious snub." 533:

Secondly, and far more importantly, did the leading (i.e. first) car also turn right along with the second car? An answer is not given in the article, though it is implied that Lojka ALONE turned right.

2018:

If the issue is consistency with how the other assassins' articles are treated, that's a matter of addressing those other articles if we're in agreement that there is no specific case for Čabrinović's

1053:

fact is not disputed in the trial transcript and this article should surely rely on the primary materials rather than ones produced 100 years later after a series of Chinese whispers. Correct please.

2201: 618: 1855:

the criminal or victim in question should be the subject of a Knowledge article only if one of the following applies ... The victim of the crime is a renowned national or international figure.

1871:

There never was a consensus to cut the article down to a redirect, and in the absence of a consensus to keep it redirected, I will accept the draft, and it can be improved in article space.

600: 277:

mentions (p. 367) 6 vehicles, with Ferdinand and his wife in the second vehicle. This article, however, places the archduke in the third vehicle. Yet another recent book, by Sean McMeekin,

1484:

It might be interesting to mention that the license plate of the car in which Franz Ferdinand was shot was: A111118. Yes, that's A as Armistice, 11-11-18. Quite a coincidence, isn't it?

414: 290: 1421: 317:

I've never read of the motorcade beginning with 7 cars. I just checked Albertini and he says that there were only 4 (!) cars in the motorcade with the archduke riding in the 2nd car.--

1072: 1341:

Numerous previous sources erroneously cited the FN Model 1900 in .32 calibre as being the weapon Princip used. This has led to confusion over the calibre of the pistol actually used.

1474: 1226: 394: 326: 309: 1328:

the assassin stepped up to the footboard of the car, and shot Franz Ferdinand and Sophie at point‐blank range using a Belgian-made Fabrique Nationale model 1910 .32 caliber pistol.

812:

No, it was not me who said that. And it is true that there were multiple archdukes named Ferdinand, but the assassination victim was not one of them. His name was Franz Ferdinand.

178: 1452: 555: 113: 573: 2226: 1629: 1365: 869: 839:, in complete agreement with SmokeyJoe. I have never heard anyone refer to Franz Ferdinand as Ferdinand, much like I have never heard anyone refer to Franz Joseph as Joseph. 591: 200: 1520: 970: 949: 890: 519: 928: 911: 848: 821: 803: 781: 763: 742: 633: 2193: 1512: 1357: 1258: 551: 460: 94: 1511:

out, while the christianity, agnosticism, atheism, ... or whatever of others is ignored, that is Islamophobia in action. It's a shame that such bigotry is commonplace.

1464:

Apis remarked to the driver "Now it is clear to me and clear to you too, that I am to be killed today by Serbian rifles solely because I organized the Sarajevo outrage.

438: 1668: 1652: 1417: 629: 1083:

Archduke Franz Ferdinand was affectionately called Franzi but never Ferdinand, the main reason for this was that he had a brother called Ferdinand who outlived him.

1014: 232: 1535: 1495: 716: 1948:

I can agree that there is not very much to say about Čabrinović; he was young, he participated in the plot, he was tried and died young in prison. But that much we

790:

Well, in the previous comment you said "there are multiple Archduke Ferdinands" and now you're saying there were none. But I guess I'm fine with your suggestion of

1499: 683: 434: 390: 305: 254: 64: 59: 1285: 1138: 1094: 1068: 1037: 569: 506: 2006: 1890: 1880: 1148: 174: 98: 1312: 1098: 1778: 1413: 1047: 1752: 690: 464: 139: 2101: 1857:

It's hard to find a more consequential assassination in the modern history than this one. Čabrinović's article existed since 2004, and has 23 interwikis.

1686: 1566: 1371: 1041: 495: 430: 386: 301: 119: 2047:(Kreševljaković; Trišić; and particularly Dedijer, that I can lay my hands on and expand/fix the article). But I'm not in agreement with your apparent 1943: 1918: 1900: 1712: 263: 2123: 164: 1579: 614: 583: 170: 2077: 2060: 2030: 1985: 1866: 1142: 220: 1795: 1245: 1218: 481: 2239:

Aichelburg, Wladimir: Erzherzog Franz Ferdinand von Österreich-Este 1863-1914 (3 vols), Verlag Berger & Söhne (2014), ISBN: 978-3850286244.

258: 47: 17: 1121: 383:

If you check the source I quoted (Aichelburg) you'll find all this broken down with many more details including the number plates of the cars.

2151: 524: 1849:

ended up boldly redirected, without discussion, and a copy in the draftspace now means that we need an admin to merge histories. And since

1823: 1818: 1539: 902:. It would be a proper article name, that would adress all issues raised by the filer and other editors who have participated here so far. 610: 1672: 1827: 1739:

there isn't a lack of exhaustive books on the subject written by historians and academics, most of them are referenced right here and in

657:

Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a

1412:

Edit punctuation in the second paragraph under "Background." There is an open parenthesis that needs a corresponding close parenthesis.

2171: 2088: 1932: 1810: 1599: 1391: 1168: 958: 857: 791: 726: 671: 500: 247:

I don't care if it's sourced, the non-neutral POV just oozes from this sentence. Good job, whoever added it - really academic.

206: 2045: 547: 456: 419: 90: 1832: 1664: 1621: 639: 625: 1531: 1491: 1448: 1304: 1277: 1972:, which has no significant history, so at least everything ends up in mainspace? I'm not sure if the page qualifies for 1620:

technically it’s not entirely accurate about being 108 years ago, it was actually 108 AND 5 and a half months sooooo…..

511: 250: 1844: 1479: 1114:

due to serious inconsistencies. There are other sources with differing accounts as well, which need to be addressed.--

1783:

I wouldn't accept that draft, personally. The subject of most of its sources is the assassination, not Čabrinović as

1466: 1134: 1090: 1064: 1033: 1006: 565: 1264: 582:

to point out inconsistencies in the standard narrative and why they may be wrong. That's the whole point of it all.

1648: 1255: 228: 2087:

if not editors. From the perspective of, say, a highschool student looking for biographical info on Čabrinović,

1928: 1963: 1700: 104:

Absolutely, AJP Taylor's views should certainly be reflected in the article. Please feel free to put them in.

1814: 695: 1840: 1217:

I don't think my phrasing for the new sentence is perfect yet but I thought I'd take a crack at it. Thanks!

1078: 79: 410: 322: 286: 1836: 1736: 1644: 1291: 38: 2002: 1914: 1876: 1708: 1308: 1281: 980: 648: 1196:

Serbian military conspirators was Chief of Serbian Military Intelligence Dragutin Dimitrijević, his

2107: 1806: 1693: 1625: 865: 2167: 1595: 1444: 1387: 1164: 1020: 1010: 135: 2056: 1981: 1862: 1731: 1692: 1570: 515: 406: 318: 282: 109: 2092:

keep it short and accurate and direct readers to the assassination article where possible. --

1968: 1470: 1318: 990: 658: 443: 1923:

Merger discussions don't go to AfD and "consensus" isn't only through discussion, it's also

1545:

Someone deleted parts from this article - about the russian involvement in the assassination

609:

Can someone correct this? (I don't have a high enough permission level to.) Thanks a lot.

2097: 1998: 1959: 1910: 1886: 1872: 1801: 1774: 1719: 1704: 1684: 1487: 1353: 1300: 1273: 1130: 1086: 1060: 1029: 1002: 966: 945: 886: 799: 759: 712: 704: 587: 486: 452: 216: 8: 1973: 1252: 924: 907: 861: 844: 817: 777: 738: 475: 224: 856:

removing 'Franz' as his name is Franz Ferdinand. But I agree with the others here that '

2222: 2119: 1962:, your series of article moves was unfortunate, since the old history is now hidden at 1748: 1436: 1222: 725:

as proposed, as there are multiple Archduke Ferdinands. Support instead shortening to

679: 2052: 1994: 1977: 1924: 1858: 1727: 1505: 1435:: I ended up removing the parenthesis altogether, it seems to read more clearly now. 1104: 700: 270: 195: 105: 1115: 2093: 2066: 1770: 1740: 1726:

but that draft needs some work to become readable, it is poorly written, full of

962: 941: 919:

I literally have never heard him referred to without his name "Franz" included.--

882: 878: 795: 755: 730: 708: 2048: 1552:

Around April 2022 I read some sentences in this article that I can't find now.

46:

If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the

2071: 2044:. I've found significant coverage in at least three historical books about him 2024: 1937: 1894: 1850: 1789: 1249: 920: 903: 840: 813: 773: 734: 989:

Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a

2218: 2115: 1766: 1762: 1744: 1723: 1679: 675: 1931:

so it's even harder to see. This article's scope is a complete overlap with

2111: 2019: 1784: 1525: 449:

articles including describing WW2 Serbian fascists as honorable guerilla.

239: 1462:, in the reported words of Apis, there is a final quotation mark missing: 1954: 1909:

50% chance that it would survive AFD; an AFD will establish consensus.

2110:

article has been cleaned up and updated with biographical content from

1658: 733:. Possibly even "Archduke" could be dropped, COMMONNAME allowing. -- 1905: 1758: 1333:

But... when I read the page of this effective pistol/caliber, i see:

1248:, the slightly clunky grammar interposed information not in the body 1241: 1891:

Knowledge:Teahouse/Questions/Archive 1162#Draft:Nedeljko Čabrinović

1678:(1) Read the article. (2) Don't post homework questions here. -- 2015:

I've restored the histories so they're now in the same timeline.

1559:

As i remember, there were also sources after these sentences.

165:

Prison Interview with Gavrilo Princip after the Assassination.

961:. Common name. Who on earth calls him Archduke Ferdinand? -- 601:

Date of Ferdinand assassination given as 1917 instead of 1914

160:

How about adding this to External Links or Further Reading?:

1800:

However, I would, despite some reservations with sourcing (

2155: 1583: 1375: 1152: 860:' is sufficiently precise, more concise and recognisable. 707:. There is no need for the article title to be this long. 123: 936:

but this opposefest actually looks like a snow close for

1345: 754:

How many other Archduke Ferdinands were assassinated?.

624:

Still the case, but now on the search preview on PC. --

1643:

It is precise enough for an event over a century ago.

2069:. Looking forward to your expansions of the article. 1663:

Reasons for the assassination of arch Duke Ferdinand

979:

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a

691:

Assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand of Austria

140:

Assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand of Austria

772:None. No Archduke Ferdinand was ever assassinated. 661:. No further edits should be made to this section. 993:. No further edits should be made to this section. 546:Quay when the driver unexpectedly turned right. 483:. Need a better source than the History channel. 1765:from previous redirecting, and draft creator @ 1580:Semi-protected edit request on 9 December 2022 1149:Semi-protected edit request on 30 October 2019 18:Talk:Assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand 2114:, hopefully this will be enough to keep it. 1048:Princip did not shoot from point blank range. 342:If Albertini writes so he is definitly wrong. 1372:Semi-protected edit request on 11 June 2020 429:leutnant = LtCol vs. Oberleutnant = 1 Lt. 120:Semi-protected edit request on 24 June 2014 2152:Semi-protected edit request on 12 May 2023 647:The following is a closed discussion of a 264:Six cars or five cars? 2nd car or 3rd car? 2172:Assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand 2089:Assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand 1933:Assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand 1600:Assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand 1392:Assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand 1169:Assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand 959:Assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand 938:Assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand 900:Assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand 875:Support with full name per above comments 858:Assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand 792:Assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand 727:Assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand 672:Assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand 898:the proposed move but support a move to 674:at this time, per the discussion below. 1966:. Does anyone mind if I swap that with 14: 2192:Change ‘lead” to ‘led’ in second line 1346:https://en.wikipedia.org/FN_Model_1910 44:Do not edit the contents of this page. 2194:2001:8003:1DCF:FF00:5AF:7DF:91DA:FB01 1513:2603:8000:8901:3354:8F6:2AB8:9933:60F 1358:2A01:E0A:534:E590:14D1:8801:3704:482B 1110:page only. Removing King's monograph 525:Driver Lojka in the Third/Second Car? 505:Hi there, I noticed that the link of 666:The result of the move request was: 25: 1458:...Also, at the end of the section 696:Assassination of Archduke Ferdinand 23: 1562:now why can't i find these parts? 24: 2251: 1853:has been thrown in, it says that 1350:So... there is something to do. 1112:The Assassination of the Archduke 2208: 2159: 2022:from the assassination article. 1635: 1587: 1427: 1379: 1232: 1156: 184: 127: 29: 2065:Bold redirects are a preferred 2233: 2217:, thanks for pointing it out. 496:03:23, 25 September 2017 (UTC) 207:Where did Franz Ferdinand die? 13: 1: 1521:23:55, 18 February 2022 (UTC) 1200:Major Vojislav Tankosić, and 1015:11:59, 27 November 2018 (UTC) 592:16:05, 26 November 2017 (UTC) 2124:09:32, 25 January 2023 (UTC) 2102:00:14, 24 January 2023 (UTC) 2078:19:52, 23 January 2023 (UTC) 2061:14:33, 23 January 2023 (UTC) 2031:13:52, 23 January 2023 (UTC) 2007:16:37, 23 January 2023 (UTC) 1986:10:31, 23 January 2023 (UTC) 1944:03:27, 21 January 2023 (UTC) 1919:01:53, 21 January 2023 (UTC) 1901:00:37, 21 January 2023 (UTC) 1881:00:08, 21 January 2023 (UTC) 1867:11:44, 20 January 2023 (UTC) 1796:05:44, 20 January 2023 (UTC) 1779:04:34, 20 January 2023 (UTC) 1687:19:24, 24 January 2023 (UTC) 1673:18:05, 24 January 2023 (UTC) 1653:17:17, 9 December 2022 (UTC) 1630:15:09, 9 December 2022 (UTC) 1460:Salonika trial (spring 1917) 1366:06:14, 9 December 2019 (UTC) 1313:15:20, 16 October 2019 (UTC) 1259:22:02, 7 November 2019 (UTC) 1227:04:30, 30 October 2019 (UTC) 640:Requested move 30 April 2018 619:07:24, 14 January 2018 (UTC) 520:19:11, 16 October 2017 (UTC) 7: 2186:to reactivate your request. 2174:has been answered. Set the 1753:10:37, 5 October 2022 (UTC) 1722:Nedeljko Čabrinović passes 1713:07:15, 5 October 2022 (UTC) 1614:to reactivate your request. 1602:has been answered. Set the 1406:to reactivate your request. 1394:has been answered. Set the 1183:to reactivate your request. 1171:has been answered. Set the 1143:22:29, 30 August 2019 (UTC) 1099:22:14, 30 August 2019 (UTC) 1073:22:08, 30 August 2019 (UTC) 1042:22:03, 30 August 2019 (UTC) 420:Rank of Count Harrach: 1 Lt 415:16:28, 13 August 2014 (UTC) 395:21:25, 11 August 2014 (UTC) 154:to reactivate your request. 142:has been answered. Set the 10: 2256: 1737:Knowledge:Reliable sources 1575:09:17, 2 August 2022 (UTC) 1500:17:24, 25 April 2021 (UTC) 1475:18:11, 26 March 2021 (UTC) 950:22:58, 30 April 2018 (UTC) 929:15:07, 30 April 2018 (UTC) 912:14:30, 30 April 2018 (UTC) 891:14:18, 30 April 2018 (UTC) 870:12:38, 30 April 2018 (UTC) 849:05:36, 30 April 2018 (UTC) 822:06:51, 30 April 2018 (UTC) 804:06:46, 30 April 2018 (UTC) 782:06:36, 30 April 2018 (UTC) 764:06:24, 30 April 2018 (UTC) 743:05:21, 30 April 2018 (UTC) 717:04:04, 30 April 2018 (UTC) 465:13:15, 5 August 2016 (UTC) 233:14:13, 4 August 2014 (UTC) 1964:Draft:Nedeljko Čabrinović 1701:Draft:Nedeljko Čabrinović 1540:08:39, 31 July 2022 (UTC) 1453:21:23, 11 June 2020 (UTC) 1422:20:10, 11 June 2020 (UTC) 1286:23:07, 26 July 2019 (UTC) 1122:11:27, 2 March 2017 (UTC) 574:05:46, 28 June 2016 (UTC) 439:00:29, 29 July 2014 (UTC) 327:22:39, 29 July 2014 (UTC) 310:23:50, 28 July 2014 (UTC) 291:20:26, 26 July 2014 (UTC) 201:21:17, 24 June 2014 (UTC) 179:12:40, 24 June 2014 (UTC) 114:21:03, 11 June 2014 (UTC) 99:10:46, 11 June 2014 (UTC) 2227:13:57, 12 May 2023 (UTC) 2202:10:06, 12 May 2023 (UTC) 1785:an independently notable 986:Please do not modify it. 654:Please do not modify it. 634:16:07, 30 May 2018 (UTC) 556:07:24, 9 June 2016 (UTC) 259:17:45, 2 July 2014 (UTC) 2067:alternative to deletion 1480:The car's license plate 971:12:37, 2 May 2018 (UTC) 684:17:39, 5 May 2018 (UTC) 501:"Secret Treaty of 1892" 2020:independent notability 1927:. Now that history is 1265:Serbia's Warning to AH 1645:ScottishFinnishRadish 1190:Requesting to change: 729:. There is only one 507:Secret Treaty of 1892 42:of past discussions. 1244:. As pointed out by 1079:Name of the Archduke 2108:Nedeljko Čabrinović 1969:Nedeljko Cabrinovic 1807:Nedeljko Čabrinović 1694:Nedeljko Čabrinović 934:Believe it or don't 1565:thx in advance, B 1323:The article says: 1292:Minor Grammar Note 1194:In charge of these 2190: 2189: 1995:User:No such user 1889:, yes there was: 1618: 1617: 1502: 1490:comment added by 1451: 1410: 1409: 1368: 1356:comment added by 1315: 1303:comment added by 1288: 1276:comment added by 1204:Rade Malobabić." 1187: 1186: 1145: 1133:comment added by 1119: 1101: 1089:comment added by 1075: 1063:comment added by 1044: 1032:comment added by 1017: 1005:comment added by 682: 668:consensus to move 494: 467: 455:comment added by 407:Marshal Bagramyan 319:Marshal Bagramyan 283:Marshal Bagramyan 271:Christopher Clark 236: 219:comment added by 158: 157: 80:AJP Taylor's view 77: 76: 54: 53: 48:current talk page 2247: 2240: 2237: 2216: 2212: 2211: 2181: 2177: 2163: 2162: 2156: 2076: 2074: 2029: 2027: 1971: 1942: 1940: 1899: 1897: 1848: 1830: 1794: 1792: 1682: 1639: 1638: 1609: 1605: 1591: 1590: 1584: 1485: 1443: 1441: 1431: 1430: 1401: 1397: 1383: 1382: 1376: 1351: 1298: 1271: 1236: 1235: 1178: 1174: 1160: 1159: 1153: 1128: 1117: 1084: 1058: 1027: 1000: 988: 698: 678: 656: 493: 491: 489:Volunteer Marek 484: 450: 235: 213: 199: 188: 187: 149: 145: 131: 130: 124: 73: 56: 55: 33: 32: 26: 2255: 2254: 2250: 2249: 2248: 2246: 2245: 2244: 2243: 2238: 2234: 2209: 2207: 2179: 2175: 2160: 2154: 2072: 2070: 2025: 2023: 1999:Robert McClenon 1967: 1960:Robert McClenon 1938: 1936: 1925:through editing 1911:Robert McClenon 1895: 1893: 1887:Robert McClenon 1873:Robert McClenon 1821: 1805: 1790: 1788: 1741:Gavrilo Princip 1732:WP:QUESTIONABLE 1720:Robert McClenon 1705:Robert McClenon 1697: 1680: 1661: 1636: 1607: 1603: 1588: 1582: 1547: 1528: 1508: 1482: 1437: 1428: 1399: 1395: 1380: 1374: 1321: 1294: 1267: 1233: 1176: 1172: 1157: 1151: 1107: 1081: 1050: 1023: 1021:Serbian Warning 997: 984: 731:Franz Ferdinand 694: 652: 642: 603: 548:124.168.246.164 527: 503: 487: 485: 478: 457:188.252.255.193 446: 422: 273:'s recent book 266: 242: 214: 209: 193: 185: 147: 143: 128: 122: 91:124.168.111.223 82: 69: 30: 22: 21: 20: 12: 11: 5: 2253: 2242: 2241: 2231: 2230: 2229: 2188: 2187: 2164: 2153: 2150: 2149: 2148: 2147: 2146: 2145: 2144: 2143: 2142: 2141: 2140: 2139: 2138: 2137: 2136: 2135: 2134: 2133: 2132: 2131: 2130: 2129: 2128: 2127: 2126: 2080: 2016: 2013: 2012: 2011: 2010: 2009: 1958: 1755: 1696: 1691: 1690: 1689: 1665:41.210.146.247 1660: 1657: 1656: 1655: 1622:157.231.131.58 1616: 1615: 1592: 1581: 1578: 1546: 1543: 1527: 1524: 1507: 1504: 1481: 1478: 1456: 1455: 1414:KFCfamousbowlz 1408: 1407: 1384: 1373: 1370: 1320: 1317: 1293: 1290: 1266: 1263: 1262: 1261: 1207: 1198:right-hand man 1185: 1184: 1161: 1150: 1147: 1106: 1103: 1080: 1077: 1049: 1046: 1022: 1019: 996: 995: 981:requested move 975: 974: 973: 952: 931: 914: 893: 879:Who's on First 872: 862:Celia Homeford 851: 833: 832: 831: 830: 829: 828: 827: 826: 825: 824: 807: 806: 785: 784: 767: 766: 746: 745: 689: 687: 664: 663: 649:requested move 643: 641: 638: 637: 636: 626:94.214.172.138 602: 599: 579: 578: 577: 576: 526: 523: 502: 499: 477: 474: 470: 445: 442: 421: 418: 402: 401: 400: 399: 398: 397: 384: 376: 375: 374: 373: 372: 371: 362: 361: 360: 359: 358: 357: 348: 347: 346: 345: 344: 343: 334: 332: 331: 330: 329: 299: 298: 265: 262: 241: 238: 208: 205: 204: 203: 168: 167: 156: 155: 132: 121: 118: 117: 116: 81: 78: 75: 74: 67: 62: 52: 51: 34: 15: 9: 6: 4: 3: 2: 2252: 2236: 2232: 2228: 2224: 2220: 2215: 2206: 2205: 2204: 2203: 2199: 2195: 2185: 2182:parameter to 2173: 2169: 2165: 2158: 2157: 2125: 2121: 2117: 2113: 2109: 2105: 2104: 2103: 2099: 2095: 2090: 2086: 2081: 2079: 2075: 2068: 2064: 2063: 2062: 2058: 2054: 2050: 2049:m:immediatism 2046: 2043: 2038: 2034: 2033: 2032: 2028: 2021: 2017: 2014: 2008: 2004: 2000: 1996: 1993: 1992: 1991: 1990: 1989: 1988: 1987: 1983: 1979: 1975: 1970: 1965: 1961: 1956: 1951: 1947: 1946: 1945: 1941: 1934: 1930: 1926: 1922: 1921: 1920: 1916: 1912: 1907: 1904: 1903: 1902: 1898: 1892: 1888: 1884: 1883: 1882: 1878: 1874: 1870: 1869: 1868: 1864: 1860: 1856: 1852: 1846: 1842: 1838: 1834: 1829: 1825: 1820: 1816: 1812: 1808: 1803: 1802:WP:NOTPERFECT 1799: 1798: 1797: 1793: 1786: 1782: 1781: 1780: 1776: 1772: 1768: 1764: 1760: 1756: 1754: 1750: 1746: 1742: 1738: 1733: 1729: 1725: 1721: 1717: 1716: 1715: 1714: 1710: 1706: 1702: 1695: 1688: 1685: 1683: 1677: 1676: 1675: 1674: 1670: 1666: 1654: 1650: 1646: 1642: 1634: 1633: 1632: 1631: 1627: 1623: 1613: 1610:parameter to 1601: 1597: 1593: 1586: 1585: 1577: 1576: 1572: 1568: 1563: 1560: 1557: 1553: 1550: 1542: 1541: 1537: 1533: 1532:93.140.249.58 1523: 1522: 1518: 1514: 1503: 1501: 1497: 1493: 1492:45.44.227.120 1489: 1477: 1476: 1472: 1468: 1465: 1461: 1454: 1450: 1446: 1442: 1440: 1439:Pupsterlove02 1434: 1426: 1425: 1424: 1423: 1419: 1415: 1405: 1402:parameter to 1393: 1389: 1385: 1378: 1377: 1369: 1367: 1363: 1359: 1355: 1348: 1347: 1343: 1342: 1334: 1331: 1329: 1324: 1319:The pistol... 1316: 1314: 1310: 1306: 1305:12.179.123.26 1302: 1289: 1287: 1283: 1279: 1278:92.11.104.107 1275: 1260: 1257: 1254: 1251: 1247: 1243: 1239: 1231: 1230: 1229: 1228: 1224: 1220: 1215: 1212: 1210: 1205: 1203: 1199: 1195: 1191: 1182: 1179:parameter to 1170: 1166: 1162: 1155: 1154: 1146: 1144: 1140: 1136: 1132: 1124: 1123: 1120: 1113: 1102: 1100: 1096: 1092: 1088: 1076: 1074: 1070: 1066: 1062: 1054: 1045: 1043: 1039: 1035: 1031: 1018: 1016: 1012: 1008: 1004: 994: 992: 987: 982: 977: 976: 972: 968: 964: 960: 956: 953: 951: 947: 943: 939: 935: 932: 930: 926: 922: 918: 915: 913: 909: 905: 901: 897: 894: 892: 888: 884: 880: 876: 873: 871: 867: 863: 859: 855: 852: 850: 846: 842: 838: 835: 834: 823: 819: 815: 811: 810: 809: 808: 805: 801: 797: 793: 789: 788: 787: 786: 783: 779: 775: 771: 770: 769: 768: 765: 761: 757: 753: 750: 749: 748: 747: 744: 740: 736: 732: 728: 724: 721: 720: 719: 718: 714: 710: 706: 705:WP:COMMONNAME 702: 697: 692: 686: 685: 681: 677: 673: 669: 662: 660: 655: 650: 645: 644: 635: 631: 627: 623: 622: 621: 620: 616: 612: 607: 598: 594: 593: 589: 585: 575: 571: 567: 562: 561: 560: 559: 558: 557: 553: 549: 543: 539: 535: 531: 522: 521: 517: 513: 508: 498: 497: 492: 490: 482: 473: 468: 466: 462: 458: 454: 444:Point of view 441: 440: 436: 432: 428: 417: 416: 412: 408: 396: 392: 388: 385: 382: 381: 380: 379: 378: 377: 368: 367: 366: 365: 364: 363: 354: 353: 352: 351: 350: 349: 341: 340: 339: 338: 337: 336: 335: 328: 324: 320: 316: 315: 314: 313: 312: 311: 307: 303: 295: 294: 293: 292: 288: 284: 280: 276: 272: 261: 260: 256: 252: 248: 245: 237: 234: 230: 226: 222: 218: 202: 197: 191: 183: 182: 181: 180: 176: 172: 166: 163: 162: 161: 153: 150:parameter to 141: 137: 133: 126: 125: 115: 111: 107: 103: 102: 101: 100: 96: 92: 86: 72: 68: 66: 63: 61: 58: 57: 49: 45: 41: 40: 35: 28: 27: 19: 2235: 2213: 2191: 2183: 2168:edit request 2084: 2053:No such user 2041: 2036: 1978:No such user 1974:WP:HISTMERGE 1949: 1935:as sourced. 1859:No such user 1854: 1787:individual. 1698: 1662: 1640: 1619: 1611: 1596:edit request 1567:BalassaMakto 1564: 1561: 1558: 1554: 1551: 1548: 1529: 1509: 1486:— Preceding 1483: 1463: 1459: 1457: 1438: 1432: 1411: 1403: 1388:edit request 1352:— Preceding 1349: 1340: 1337: 1335: 1332: 1327: 1325: 1322: 1299:— Preceding 1295: 1272:— Preceding 1268: 1238:Partly done: 1237: 1216: 1213: 1208: 1206: 1201: 1197: 1193: 1189: 1188: 1180: 1165:edit request 1129:— Preceding 1125: 1111: 1108: 1085:— Preceding 1082: 1059:— Preceding 1055: 1051: 1028:— Preceding 1024: 1001:— Preceding 998: 985: 978: 954: 937: 933: 916: 899: 895: 874: 853: 836: 751: 722: 688: 670:the page to 667: 665: 653: 646: 608: 604: 595: 580: 544: 540: 536: 532: 528: 512:208.76.28.70 504: 488: 479: 469: 451:— Preceding 447: 431:Peter Mulacz 426: 423: 403: 387:Peter Mulacz 333: 302:Peter Mulacz 300: 278: 275:Sleepwalkers 274: 267: 251:62.245.69.24 249: 246: 243: 215:— Preceding 210: 196:Technical 13 189: 169: 159: 151: 136:edit request 106:Peregrine981 87: 83: 70: 43: 37: 1467:31.125.76.2 1135:92.25.13.63 1091:92.25.13.63 1065:92.25.13.63 1034:92.25.13.63 1007:5.150.66.90 991:move review 659:move review 606:not occur. 566:98.67.0.138 476:recent edit 36:This is an 2176:|answered= 2094:asilvering 1771:asilvering 1728:WP:REFBOMB 1681:Jack of Oz 1604:|answered= 1396:|answered= 1173:|answered= 963:Necrothesp 942:Randy Kryn 883:Randy Kryn 796:Rreagan007 756:Rreagan007 709:Rreagan007 701:WP:Concise 584:Missaeagle 171:Sophie1932 144:|answered= 2035:It's not 1955:m:Mergist 1906:User:Czar 1757:Tagging @ 1699:A draft, 1641:Not done: 1526:Objective 1506:Aftermath 1256:(contrib) 1250:Eggishorn 1242:MOS:INTRO 1105:Greg King 921:Calthinus 904:Ktrimi991 841:Surtsicna 814:Surtsicna 774:Surtsicna 752:Question: 735:SmokeyJoe 279:July 1914 221:Gomez2002 71:Archive 3 65:Archive 2 60:Archive 1 2219:Aeengath 2116:Aeengath 1767:Tails Wx 1763:Onel5969 1745:Aeengath 1488:unsigned 1449:contribs 1354:unsigned 1301:unsigned 1274:unsigned 1246:Catmoons 1219:Catmoons 1131:unsigned 1087:unsigned 1061:unsigned 1030:unsigned 1003:unsigned 676:Dekimasu 453:unsigned 405:wrote.-- 229:contribs 217:unsigned 2085:readers 1851:WP:PERP 1824:protect 1819:history 1659:History 1202:the spy 39:archive 2042:exists 1929:buried 1828:delete 1724:WP:SNG 1253:(talk) 917:Oppose 896:Oppose 854:Oppose 837:Oppose 723:Oppose 699:– Per 2180:|ans= 2166:This 2112:WP:RS 1845:views 1837:watch 1833:links 1769:. -- 1761:and @ 1730:from 1608:|ans= 1594:This 1400:|ans= 1386:This 1177:|ans= 1163:This 1118:oupan 611:Bjdpc 297:cars. 148:|ans= 134:This 16:< 2223:talk 2214:Done 2198:talk 2120:talk 2106:The 2098:talk 2073:czar 2057:talk 2037:just 2026:czar 2003:talk 1982:talk 1939:czar 1915:talk 1896:czar 1877:talk 1863:talk 1841:logs 1815:talk 1811:edit 1791:czar 1775:talk 1759:Czar 1749:talk 1709:talk 1669:talk 1649:talk 1626:talk 1571:talk 1549:Hi, 1536:talk 1517:talk 1496:talk 1471:talk 1445:talk 1433:Done 1418:talk 1362:talk 1309:talk 1282:talk 1240:Per 1223:talk 1139:talk 1095:talk 1069:talk 1038:talk 1011:talk 967:talk 955:Move 946:talk 925:talk 908:talk 887:talk 866:talk 845:talk 818:talk 800:talk 778:talk 760:talk 739:talk 713:talk 703:and 630:talk 615:talk 588:talk 570:talk 552:talk 516:talk 461:talk 435:talk 411:talk 391:talk 323:talk 306:talk 287:talk 255:talk 240:NPOV 225:talk 194:{{U| 190:Done 175:talk 110:talk 95:talk 2178:or 2170:to 1950:can 1606:or 1598:to 1398:or 1390:to 1209:To: 1175:or 1167:to 983:. 957:to 480:Re 198:}} 146:or 138:to 2225:) 2200:) 2184:no 2122:) 2100:) 2059:) 2005:) 1984:) 1976:. 1917:) 1879:) 1865:) 1843:| 1839:| 1835:| 1831:| 1826:| 1822:| 1817:| 1813:| 1777:) 1751:) 1743:. 1711:) 1671:) 1651:) 1628:) 1612:no 1573:) 1538:) 1519:) 1498:) 1473:) 1447:• 1420:) 1404:no 1364:) 1344:" 1330:" 1311:) 1284:) 1225:) 1181:no 1141:) 1097:) 1071:) 1040:) 1013:) 969:) 948:) 940:. 927:) 910:) 889:) 881:? 877:, 868:) 847:) 820:) 802:) 794:. 780:) 762:) 741:) 715:) 693:→ 680:よ! 651:. 632:) 617:) 590:) 572:) 554:) 518:) 463:) 437:) 427:st 413:) 393:) 325:) 308:) 289:) 257:) 231:) 227:• 192:— 177:) 152:no 112:) 97:) 2221:( 2196:( 2118:( 2096:( 2055:( 2001:( 1980:( 1957:. 1913:( 1885:@ 1875:( 1861:( 1847:) 1809:( 1773:( 1747:( 1718:@ 1707:( 1667:( 1647:( 1624:( 1569:( 1534:( 1515:( 1494:( 1469:( 1416:( 1360:( 1336:" 1326:" 1307:( 1280:( 1221:( 1192:" 1137:( 1116:Z 1093:( 1067:( 1036:( 1009:( 965:( 944:( 923:( 906:( 885:( 864:( 843:( 816:( 798:( 776:( 758:( 737:( 711:( 628:( 613:( 586:( 568:( 550:( 514:( 459:( 433:( 409:( 389:( 321:( 304:( 285:( 253:( 223:( 173:( 108:( 93:( 50:.

Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License. Additional terms may apply.

Index