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an armistice. Many
Italians use the word armistice when referring to Italy's exit of World War II as a euphemism to mask their denial that they just flat out lost. In an armistice, the opposing troops keep their positions and their guns, the opposing governments remain in place, and the front lines remain in place. In Italy, the government disappeared in the night of September 8, without giving the military forces specific instructions. As a result, nearly half a million confused and often leaderless Italian soldiers throughout Italy, Jugoslavia and Greece were captured by the Germans and put into forced labor in German concentration camps, where a large percentage of them died of starvation. Cefalonia was one of the few examples of armed resistance to German forces.
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1288:. Well, the armistice of Cassibile and the Instrument of Surrender signed at Malta are two different things. The Armistice of Cassibile was a military armistice which puts all Italian and Allied forces to cease hostilities between them which was signed on September 3. The Instrument of Surrender here signed at Malta on 29 September is the agreement which puts all Italian forces must surrender unconditionally to the Allies, the disbandment of the Fascist militaries. As well the handing over of
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only thing the King suppressed. The armistice and the
Instrument of Surrender signed at Cassibile in 3 September and 29 September in Malta were the key events of the collapse of Fascist Italy, NOT the July 25. The Instrument of Surrender signed at Malta tells that all Fascist organizations must be disbanded throughout Italy as well as handing over of
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and the same
Government. Saying that the Kingdom of the South was established "while" the puppet Social Republic was established in the North means giving the same legitimacy to both, while it is obvious to non-nazi parts that the legitimate state was the Kingdom of Italy and the Social Republic was the seceding part.
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This article should be titled "Italy's
Surrender." Italy did not obtain an armistice from the Allies, but was subjected to a virtually unconditional surrender. The definition of "armistice" is "a temporary suspension of hostilities by agreement of the warring parties; truce." World War I ended with
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of
Germany falls from power resulting the collapse of the German Empire, since the German Empire was transformed into the Weimar Republic starting from 9 November 1918. Therefore, it is the delegates of the Weimar Republic that signed the 11 November 1918 Armistice. The Fascist organizations was the
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And, by the way, there was no
Kingdom of Italy to establish in the South. The only thing Badoglio and the King succeeded with their botched managemnt of the armistice was guaranteeing the continuty of State and Government. The Kingdom "in the South" was just the Kingdom of Italy, with the same King
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for the event, it should be used even if it implies a controversial point of view." My claim is that calling it an "armistice", even if debatable in itself, is the common name of this incident. I have quoted the first few source I have found, but Google
Scholar and books can provide thousands more.
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You really don't get it. Only the
Fascist regime collapsed, not as a whole nation. On September 29 signed at Malta , that's the official and formal Italian surrender that tells us the total dissolution of Fascist organizations throughout Italy, the regime collapsed, but it doesn't mean the whole
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That is wrong. The formal name of the state has always been "Kingdom of Italy", even under fascism. The de facto name of Italy is and always has been "Italy". One can call it "fascist Italy" or "liberal Italy" or "republican Italy" to highlight specific periods. Of course, “fascist Italy” is a
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I noticed that Pietro
Badoglio is always referred to as "Duke of Addis Abeba" or even "Addis Abeba", without "Duke". While he was indeed made Duke of Addis Abeba, I did not find any serious source calling him systematically with his recent title instead of the proper name. The same applies to
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Finally, claiming that the
Armistice changed the nature of the Italian government is utterly inappropriate. The fact that Allieds were still fighling durng Badoglio government does not change the fact that Fall of the Fascist regime in Italy has a specific date, and it is July, 25th
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Besides that, the point is that claiming that ”fascist Italy” signed the Amistice is completely missing the historical point: Italy signed the armistice as a step in its exit from fascism (it was, of course, a long process), and just thanks to the fact that the fascist regime has
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was the official collapse for Fascist Italy, ending its overall participation at the war, until Mussolini's rescue and the establishment of the Italian Social Republic at the North, while in the South, The Kingdom of Italy under the King and Badoglio was also established.
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Plese show reliable sources saying that "The Armistice of Cassibile or the Italian Instrument of Surrender was the official collapse for Fascist Italy". This is a misconception and a unpleasant way to put things for the Italian people, but above all is a very POV
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a de facto name of the Country. You may check the “Fascist Italy” entry in Knowledge, that correctly reports “Fascist Italy is a term which is used to describe the Kingdom of Italy when it was governed by the National Fascist
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For some reason, this particular Nazi sympathiser doesn't want to sign up and get an account, to show the world who he is. Perhaps our friend from Frankfurt-am-Mein is unaware that IP addresses can be traced very easily these
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The Term Fascist Italy was the de facto name of state of the Kingdom of Italy. That was until the armistice is signed in September 3 1943.As the Allies is still fighting the Italians after the overthrow of Mussolini.
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1184:: The Armistice of Cassibile was a military armistice only, ceasing hostilities between Italy and the Allies, the agreement signed at Malta on 29 September was the formal Italian surrender in World War II.
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The Badoglio statement that Italy would still figh with Nazi Germany was obviosly a ruse to (try) avoiding German reaction, given that negotiations with allies were immediately started (actually renewed).
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The word frondeur, defined in Wiktionary and elsewhere as "a political rebel" (singular), seems to be misused in the sentence: "The secret frondeur later involved Giuseppe Bottai... and Galeazzo Ciano..."
560:) and acted against Italian warships. Similarly, what part did Italians play in the remainder of the war? For example, some RM ships patrolled the Atlantic and Italian former POWs assisted on the British
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753:, it is what you personally believe that is irrelevant. It is verifiable sources that are relevant. If you believed that the king of Wherever were a tyrant, should we rename the article about him
717:"Armistizio di Cassibile" is in fact the normal designation of this event in Italy, and I don't think that any Italian in his right mind considers that Italy's defeat in WWII can be masked.
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Leaving aside the despicable nature of his sentiment, he should be aware that a talk page is for discussing improvements to an article with reliable sources. Now go fetch, or be quiet.
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Sorry, but repeating twice a wrong thing doesn't make it right. Please avoid analogies and just show reliable sources that say that Fascism fell on September, 8th and not July, 25th.
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The July 25 plot was the official end of the Fascist regime in Italy. But it's Fascist government were dismantled and a new government was formed. Badoglio even proclaims that
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In any case, this makes no difference, given that the fall of fascism is obviously related, but not the same thing of the end of the war between Italy and Allies.
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This article is summary and inaccurate. E.g., Mussolini was not arrested at the Fascist "Gran Consiglio" , but the day after, following a meeting with the King
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We should refer to the naming conventions, not WP:V. And, of course, what I personally believe is indeed irrelevant, I was merely stating my position. --
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I'm slightly in concurrence. The aftermath of the armistice needs to be expanded upon (German seizure of Italian forces, surrender of Italian Fleet, etc)
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The name of state the Kingdom of Italy began to be used after the armistice signed. The government may be changed but the name of state doesn't.
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I'm withdrawing this nomination given the arguments in the oppose votes above. Let's leave this discussion open for a week more just in case. -
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After the surrender, not armistice, the Italians were enemies and traitors. What other than harsh treatment do you expect from the Germans.
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Do you even have sources that tells us after the collapse of the Fascist regime. It was returned as the Kingdom of Italy again?
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Disagree. The name they called it is irrelevant, only modern name use. Personally I believe we should call it what it is. --
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and his Fascist officials to the United Nations and the unconditional surrender of the Italian forces to the Allies
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The article scarcely mentions the German reaction. Thereafter, they treated Italian forces worse than enemies (see
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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Indeed. Capitulation or surrender makes a lot more sense. I'll make a good faith move and see how it goes. --
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281:. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a
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https://web.archive.org/web/20070929084029/http://www.romacivica.net/anpiroma/Resistenza/8_settembreo.htm
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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with
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https://web.archive.org/web/20070810184758/http://www.romacivica.net/anpiroma/Resistenza/8_settembre.htm
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This is plainly wrong. The fascist party was disbanded immediately after July 25 (royal Decree n. 704,
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Raffaele Guariglia, called "Barone di Vituso". If there are no objections, I'm going to edit this.
690:("The following conditions of an Armistice are presented by General Dwight D. Eisenhower ..."), by
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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was the date where the Fascist regime collapsed. But did Italy as a nation also collapsed? No.
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It was indeed a de facto capitulation on the part of Italy, but it was called armistice by
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The information present here can be mentioned as a new section in the target article. -
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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with
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Could we have "Surrender of Italy" redirect to this article? Seems reasonable enough!
700:). So calling it "Capitulation" or anything else would be a non-neutral denomination.
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Could someone with subject knowledge please copyedit this so that it makes sense,
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564:. What impact did Italian partisans have? It should at least be mentioned.
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and his Fascist officials. As mentioned at the External Link that I gave.
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https://www.gazzettaufficiale.it/eli/id/1943/08/05/043U0704/sg
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http://www.romacivica.net/anpiroma/Resistenza/8_settembreo.htm
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http://www.romacivica.net/anpiroma/Resistenza/8_settembre.htm
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You are right, the naming conventions are relevant here, and
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legitimate expression to identify the years of fascism, but
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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after the July 25 . The Armistice of Cassibile or the
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This article has been checked against the following
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761:"capitulation of Italy"?
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1027:The Term "Fascist Italy"
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982:Misused word? "frondeur"
649:Surrender, not armistice
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