Talk:AC/DC receiver design/Archive 1

2214:

TVs, it's nothing new or specific to SMPS. Some devices are less tolerant than others (an undervoltage TV displays an undersize picture, for instance). TV is clearly in-scope so it is reasonable to contrast a 2008-model TV (digital, LCD, SMPS, lots of A/V inputs) to a 1988-model TV (analogue, CRT, hot-chassis, needs an RF modulator to connect a VCR as the live chassis prevents A/V jacks from being implemented without complex isolation circuitry) as a means of explaining the design considerations involved. DC mains distribution was just as irrelevant in most areas in 1988 as 2008 ("a few old elevators in NYC" notwithstanding) but the live, rectified line directly isn't very usable as it's the wrong voltage for most modern semiconductor applications. That LCD TV evolved from laptop PC display technology and (except for the backlight) is inherently a low-voltage device. Hot-chassis is dead, explain why.

1304:

into the era where AC mains was predominant, particularly in television design where there were large numbers of valves (vacuum tubes). Valves required comparatively large amounts of power for their heaters. For example a small signal pentode which consumed around 20 or so milliwatts from its high voltage supply required 2 watts to heat up the cathode. A 240 volt television set with its valves and CRT required 72 watts just to heat the valves (including the power lost in the ballast resistor). Thus the potential cost saving of not having to provide a mains transformer was very attractive to set makers. The introduction of solid state circuitry eliminated the valves and their heater requirements, and the (now much smaller) transformer made a brief reappearance. Developments in thyristor power supplies and later switch mode supplies have eliminated it again, but that is a whole different article.

799:

from it). It would have been very difficult to recover much energy from the deflection coils themselves as they are deliberately designed to have as low an inductance as possible (commensurate with their function of producing a magnetic field). This was necessary for a rapid flyback where a current of 2-3 Amps or so had to reverse direction in 5-8 microseconds (depending on TV system). They were also designed to have as low a series resistance as possible for much the same reason. Scan coils have a minimal quantity of ferrite core being mostly vacuum cored (the tube). Even in the circuit refered to above, even if the scan coils did have any energy to recover, the series inductor L2 would have prevented much of it from reaching the booser diode. I have not come across any line deflection stage where the boost diode is connected such as to pass any flyback pulses from the scan coils.

1149:

least in the UK) the neutral conductor is bonded to the earth conductor at every point where the supply enters a building. Also in the UK, a DC mains supply was generally distributed at 200 volts DC. However, as it was generated as a (+200)-0-(-200) volt system (with the centre '0' point earthed at the power station), the live conductor, in a two wire location, could either be 200 volts positive or negative with respect to the earthed conductor. The nearest any present system gets to this scheme is a unique system that was trialled in part of West London where the supply really is 230 volts AC, but it is distributed as 115-0-115 volts. This was presumably a safety idea, but the system still survives. The idea also lives on in professional portable tools which are usually rated to run from 115 volts from a transformer with an earthed centre tapped secondary (i.e. 55-0-55 volts).

2274:

operated pretty well independently of the actual voltage of the mains supply (on either AC or DC and were imune from the peak voltage versus DC voltage issue). The only voltage sensitive area was the series heater chain for the vacuum tubes. Multi voltage AC/DC receivers did have a voltage selection switch, but this only selected a tapping on the resistor in series with the heaters. Receivers were generally 200-250 volt on my side of the pond, but 100-120 volt in America. AFAIAA, there were no receivers designed to operate from (nominally) 110 and 220 volt supplies. Most of your other suggestion are really just un-notable. No LCD TV that I am aware of is officially rated by the manufacturer to run from a DC supply, so (as pointed out) a reliable cite would be required that they can. And also (again as pointed out) since there are no DC mais supplies, why would anyone want to?

218:"Blows my mind that there appears to have been 240 V DC powered TV sets!" They were absolutely standard for many years, not the least bit unusual, though strict DC operation was becoming an irrelevance and I don't know if later ones were 100% DC-compatible (this is lack of knowledge, not specific doubt, who cared?), but certainly DC-boost circuits were common instead of a transformer. The most complicated TVs ever were probably from the late AC/DC era: in the UK the standard was changing from 405 to 625 lines over a few years so for quite a while there were "dual-standard" sets capable of handling both. + colour coming in. + AC/DC... While the 1946 one I mentioned was 240V only, there were probably 220-240V ones later. I think I've chucked out the book I had on repairing TVs, which would certainly have gone into detail on the subject. 1937:

find any reference where they are described as 'AC/DC'. In fact, to be brutal, the term 'switch mode power supply', is a far more encompassing term than the type of power supplies that you are discussing. The type of supply for your PC or laptop is just a subset of SMPSUs (actually flyback SMPSUs). An SMPSU can have a mains transformer and much of the other paraphernalia of a linear power supply (just the linear regulator is replaced by a switch mode regulator). These definately will not work from DC. Such supplies are generally only encountered these days in large laboratory power supplies (there is a 0-70 volt, 200 Amp one on a trolley not far from my bench - weighs in at around quarter of a tonne, mostly the transformer) though they used to be far more common in smaller sizes.

827:

of volts for a transistor model. The Bush TV22 line deflection is indeed unusual in that it was very rare to provide additional windings for the boost HT supply. The supply was usually obtained by rectifying the pulses directly from the line output pentode's anode (hence from the transformer primary). In a typical valve colour TV set these pulses had an amplitude of around 6 kV. The load provided by the output stage meant that the actual boost was less than this. What with this boosted HT; the EHT supply; the focus supply and having to provide a couple of amps of deflection current, line output stages were worked very hard indeed. In one popular series of early colour TV sets using the BRC2000 chassis design, the stage was worked so hard that it had to be equipped with

2777:

never quite made it with a 'universal' model because of the differing rules in various countries. One model fitted nearly all the countries in the world. We had to produce a 'cut down' version for the Canadian markets and were unable to supply to Japan. The Canadian model had to be a single voltage version as user accessible volt change switches were not allowed (heaven only knows why). The Japanese version would have had to operate from their rather unique 100 volt mains (though that could have been included in the voltages). The main problem was that for Japan the output current had to be limited to 20mA (the output voltage was 350 volts DC). The product required 200mA. This was quite a number of years ago and rules are known to change or aquire exceptions.

1874:

under slightly different wording (cooker, toaster, tongs, fires) as a strawperson argument. They're mentioned once, leave it at that. SMPS are regulated power supplies, so you might be overemphasising the peak-vs-RMS voltage issue just a wee bit. The voltage-doubler, if present, is normally used only for 120V and turned off when using the same dual-voltage supply on 240V. The input rectifiers are always sized for the peak voltage and current (plus a margin), not the average as it takes only brief out-of-specification operation to damage semiconductors. Mechanical hard power switches are also becoming less common on SMPS; laptop power supplies are always on, ATX PC's are momentary soft switch, TV's and monitors don't fully shut down as they carry

673:(the first ever such design) literature confirms this. That it worked off DC as well as AC was nothing more than a convenient side effect (though it did not work quite as well). A handful of DC mains only radio designs did exist prior to the AC/DC design, but they did not operate from AC. In any case, during the era when many households might have had DC mains, most radios were still powered from batteries. :::I can even recall my grandfather having to walk the three miles into town and back every week to swap over the LT (A) lead-acid battery for his trusty radio. His load was doubled every 4 weeks as he had to add a 120 volt HT (B) battery for the return trip - and this was in 1960! 2450:

will be used internationally these days with just a few chip changes for the different systems). The manufacturers only specify that range, because anything else is unlikely to be encountered anywhere on the planet. It is the ability of the DC regulation that allows the wide range, the DC link voltage is proportional to the input voltage. Some supplies prefer to provide a voltage switch to switch the input filter into a votage doubler mode when used in the 100-120 volt range. Some jurisdictions (such as Canada I believe) do not allow domestic appliances to have a voltage change switch so a wide input range opens up such markets.

84:

shortage of transformerless tube equipment of various power levels in North America. From wrecking old mono tube TV sets I found they all had power transformers for the B+ even if the heaters were series string - could we find a reference that says European TV sets didn't ever use one? It must have been cheaper to put in a power transformer than a voltage doubler - or perhaps there were other reasons. And it's still irrelevant unless such sets were intended to be run from DC mains, which I doubt. Anything with a phonograph in it would have been built for AC only for the motor, so the power argument falls out.

268:

think largely because electricity nowadays is pretty safe except for work where tools may cut cables. I've certainly always been a good deal more cautious around 240 than 120V. I strongly get the impression that the objection to this point is simply disbelief that 240V is more dangerous than 120V, rather than any issue of relevance; I note that the difference between AC/DC practice between 120V and 240V (voltage doublers and the like), which is highly relevant, was reverted due to disbelief before I documented it. There have been millions of 240V AC/DC TV receivers (and probably hundreds of models).

116:"I'm reasonably sure that at least as many people have been killed by accidental contact with 120 V as with 240 V" I'm virtually certain that that's not so. Unfortunately I haven't been able to find any old statistics in the time available; in recent times everything is double-insulated and earthed to such an extent that electricity is pretty safe. Just as a rough idea the energy that will be dumped in a resistance is proportional to the square of the voltage, so 4 times more energy from a low-impedance power source, maybe more (or less) if the shock causes resistivity to drop (or increase). 282:

universally adopted throughout the UK", though I haven't found the direct source for the estimate. Summarising, (a) it is plainly in accord with simple physics and biology that doubling the voltage increases risk of electrocution; (b) although I've not found a reference that says so explicitly (but none that denies it either), I have found regulations which mandate 110 rather than 230V where there is electrical hazard for safety, and an estimate that use of lower voltage would halve deaths; (c) the issue of the danger due to higher voltage is relevant to the article.

1659:

but even this fragment suffices to show the direct connection. It's a little atypical because often the - side of the power supply was not wired directly to the chassis but instead connected to the chassis through a parallel RC network (to limit the current available if anyone did touch the "hot chassis")...however, given the fragmentary nature of this schematic, maybe they just used a "chassis ground" symbol when they meant to say "circuit common". Did you somehow get a bad copy of the .JPG, do you perhaps have some other reason you can't read schematics? --

735:

be desired (the deflection circuits leap instantly to mind here). Later sets, although largely of AC/DC design, included a small transformer solely to run the CRT heaters in order to avoid cathode to heater insulation problems (making the operation resolutely AC only). These appeared initially on sets that were fitted with Mazda tubes as these had a poor history of cathode-heater breakdown. A transformer was often an after market modification to overcome such a short (and I still have quite few left which find use in power supply circuits).

1155:

it didn't work, you simply plugged it in the other way around (plugs were non polarised in the early DC days - and indeed for AC). As stated, most users would be unaware of the actual polarity of their supply and the wire colours gave no clue as the grounded conductor was coloured black and the live conductor, red regardles of its actual polarity. Only in installations where all three conductors were available was the polarity of the live conductors identified (and I cannot find the colours used).

35: 717:, which was designed to operate from a maximum input voltage of 120 volts actually has a B+ (as the Americans like to call it) of 160 volts (any AA5 service sheet will confirm this). This means that when run off of 120 VDC, the B+ voltage cannot exceed 117 volts (allowing for the 3 volts dropped across part of the rectifier heater and the dial light) and that the performance must be compromised to some extent (the most evident probably being the amount of audio power available). 1826:(SMPSU) article as a 'see also'. However, SMPSUs are out of scope for this article because they are not transformerless and furthermore, there will be supporting reference problem because SMPSUs do not usually state on their tally plate that they will run from DC. There is also the issue that the ability to run from DC is not universal and without a clue on the tally plate, it is impossible to determine which will and which won't from a casual examination. Similarly, the 1224:

casing usually has a prominent notice warning that the earth terminal (and hence the neutral) must be grounded (using the metal rod provided with it). I know little of European systems in general, but the EU is in the process of harmonising many of the requirements. For distribution purposes, there is much commonality to start with so harmonisation seems to be confined to things like tweaking individual requirements, wire colours and what voltage we describe the system as.

687:

run from AC, the reservoir capacitor charges to the peak voltage of 339 volts which reduces under load to somewhere around 310-320 volts. Although the vision and audio circuits would not complain too much, the deflection circuits either have to have a method of making up the loss of voltage or not bother. Many TV set makers in later years adopted the latter approach which is why many (technically) AC/DC designs are actually specified as operating from AC only.

1288:

broken as it then borders on nonsense and I agree somewhat. This needs to be discussed and some agreed result achieved, here. Editwarring is happening and heads could roll if an admin happens by. From other articles, I perceive when editwarring happens, the articles get very formal and only with references, statements will survive or be permitted. This whole article looks mostly unsubstantiated and could be removed with that rule. Where are we going with this?

1111:

correctly some had dropping resistances to bring voltages down inside some equipment. I conclude DC portability was a selling feature of EU equipment. In mains supplies home had no grounded conductor (the voltages floated to earth), in some or maybe all locations and therefore the chassis had no ground unless a separate earth wire was brought via a three conductor cord and plug. I don't believe EU utilized an earh/ground system in homes.

1595:

filter capacitor' because together with the resistor or choke it forms a low pass filter which readily passes the DC current, but attenuates the AC ripple superimposed upon it. In the All American Five, one of the features of its design was indeed that both the rectifier, reservoir capacitor and filter capacitor were directly connected to the incoming mains supply. For a simplified diagram of the AA5's power supply see

2008:

TV took longer to die, but was largely put out of our misery in the 1990s as demand for audio/video jacks for VCR, DVD, PVR or computer games required the chassis ground not be a live wire. That change, plus the widespread adoption of LCD flatscreen after the turn of the millennium, took line-powered "hot chassis" out and put SMPS in as a TV is now little more than a low-voltage computer monitor with a built-in

307:. For example (all tables show similar results) table 4, soil resistivity 10 ohm.m, 0.25 seconds at 222V, 0.40" @ 122V. Pretty conclusive; this allows the fairly long text I wrote to be dropped. You can touch 120V for nearly twice the time as 240V for similar risk. This is consistent with my argument from physics, biology, and logic above: assuming damage to be due to energy of shock, twice the voltage ==: --> 766:

This is usually achieved by a spring loaded 'snap' action separating the contacts by some minimum distance. By contrast an AC only switch only needs to separate the contacts by a small distance as any arc automatically extinguishes at the end of the half cycle (so called 'microswitch' design). Even modern switch mode power supplies can only be used on DC if the supply does not incorporate a switch.

2138:, though that does have its own article so would not warrant the repetition. I don't see how much else could be included (beyond the obvious light bulb and electric fire - but these are already mentioned in the lead paragraph). For example, the switch mode power supply referred to above is generally rated by the manufacturers to operated from 50 or 60 Hz AC. To be included would require a 534:

electron theory next? Perhaps some do not understand what the lede refers to and should not opine? Perhaps the lede needs to be changed to accomodate miscellaneous electronic theories as suggested? I feel the article needs to adhere to it's title and lede description. Base theories and teachings do not belong in this article despite how hard anybody has worked on these topic distractions.

2364:

time on nothing, here. We used to repair lots of these TV sets but I can't remember a nameplate stating "AC/DC" and we never had DC grid power ever, where I am. I threw out all the old repair manuals years ago, also. There must be a source online somewhere?? I know some came in with the plug polarity wiring reversed. That was scary. Thank goodness for the discovery of plastics.

111:". Why so? A couple of diodes (vacuum, selenium, or solid-state), a couple of capacitors... The 8-valve dual-voltage radio I referenced uses 2 diodes and five 25 microfarad electrolytics. A non-doubling supply requires 1 diode, though I haven't bothered to work out how many extra capacitors the doubling feature requires (you'd use at least 2 without doubling). 2407:

AC ..." (The '~' symbol meant "cycles per second" the older term for "Hertz"). This was in spite of the fact that by the 1950's there were no DC mains supplies in Britain. Of course, the set would probably have operated from 60 Hz, but as there are no 60 Hz supplies in Britain, Bush felt it unnecessary to test and specify the set at this frequency.

1972:

is pointed out). The rating on such supplies invariably says something like "240V AC 50/60 Hz" but only because that is the frequency range of mains supplies these days. The rating actually hides the fact that they will operate at frequencies well outside of that range. We frequently operate standard switch mode supplies at 400 Hz without problem.

2506:

selected in a 240V country (damaging equipment), not the inverse. As for not operating anything from DC, how do you propose I start my motorcar? It's Edison-style mains voltage DC (and not DC in general, which is needed for battery and vehicular applications) which has been moribund for years. A search for "AC/DC motor" yields many

1257:

broke out. Radio sets were usually offered in AC only but there were a few DC only models available in the 1930's for those few areas where DC still existed. There may have still been some outlying potential DC market by 1945, but it would have been nowhere near large enough for the design to be adopted on that score alone.

2806:). The request made there in reference to this dispute has been removed because this discussion involves more than two editors and that project is only for disputes with two editors. It was also removed due to the move request, below, which encompasses most of the same issues as this dispute, since 3O like almost all content 127:. BTW, earlier AC-only sets used a mains transformer to generate the EHT, and produced enough power to electrocute an army. DC mains supplies were still quite common in 1948. I think this establishes beyond peradventure that 220V AC/DC was used for TV; and it's pretty obvious that 110V DC was not enough to generate the HT. 1819:

television engineers as the 'AC/DC' design. As stated in the article, its goal was to eliminate the large and expensive mains transformer. A design side effect was that the resultant receiver would work from a DC supply as well as an AC. The tally plate on these receiver confirmed that the supply could be AC or DC.

2156:

opening one of these things?) revealed that the input rectifier had burned out (to one polarity). It must be very marginally rated as it was just a small surface mount chip. I dare say that it might have operated for a further 10 minutes had I tried reversing the polarity of the supply. But this is purely

272:

decreases as an effect of shock, so the current may be a bit more than double, but this is probably not significant). A 240V shock is certainly not necessarily fatal - I've had enough - so the argument that both 120V or 240V will kill so the difference is irrelevant won't wash. It's elementary formal logic:

2485:

radio design). If the article scope were to be widened to discuss any appliance capable of DC operation, then another article would have to be created to support these other articles. As already noted above, suitable references would have to be found to support any claims not specifically supported

2449:

Modern flyback switch mode supplies are able to operate over a very wide range of input voltage. Your Viewsonic may be specified to work from 100-250 volts, but it would very likely operate from a much wider range than that (and the higher voltages are mentioned probably because the basic set design

2406:

The 'AC/DC' "nickname" (as you put it) is just precisely that. It is the description usually given to these transformerless designs. If you checked the tally plate on an old vacuum tube television set (in this case the iconic Bush TV22 sold in the UK), the rating plate says "200-250 volts DC or 50~

1881:

The difference between "hot chassis" (where the rectified line is used directly, tying one side of the line to the chassis) and SMPS (where the rectified line is inverted back to a higher-frequency for a lightweight transformer) is worth mentioning as there is a huge distinction in electrical safety.

1873:

is often a series inductor, which would act as just a straight wire at DC. Universal motors are AC/DC and I have no idea why you keep removing them. The text already mentions that incandescent bulbs and heaters don't care about line frequency; all you've done is pointlessly mention heaters four times

1848:

For normal operation, switch mode supplies require a higher DC voltage than they do AC. This is to do with the peak voltage of AC being higher than the DC voltage - a 240 volt AC supply has to be run from around 330 volts DC. This is because the reservoir capacitor attempts to charge to the peak AC

1507:

The article witters on about the dangers of directly connecting the radio to the line, and yet we feel we need a tag that asks for this to be confirmed? The dubious editor could consult 30 or 40 of the many hot chassis schematics on the Web and observe that one pole of the plug is directly connected,

1492:

Not willing to make textual changes, but willing to hide eggs? If its relevant, it can be explained in the text; if you're not sure its relevant, piping it doesn't make it less uncertain. "Just fix it"? Do you really want to say it that way? I review about 80-100 changes to articles on my watch list

1148:

AFAIAA, there has been no floating mains supply anywhere in Europe (but I'm sure someone will point one out). Historically, the neutral conductor was earthed (grounded) at the substation, but not necessarily anywhere else, thus the neutral was not guaranteed to be at earth potential. These days (at

1106:

In N.America AC/DC sets were created for the lack of transformer usage for economic reasons. DC didn't exist when these sets did and was never a reason or promoted. DC woud not produce a high enough voltage to run many of the tube B+ stages and would have been only .707 of the plate voltage using AC.

798:

during the flyback period where the magnetic field rapidly collapses. The Bush TV22 referenced from the article clearly shows the boost diode rectifying pulses from the secondary windings at the top of T4 (and two other supply voltages are derived the same way from the primary winding or an overwind

621:

have any idea? The only thing that I know of that can turn an AC/DC design into an AC only design is the inclusion of a voltage doubler input circuit to give a higher voltage HT rail but that would have added at least one rectifier and one capacitor to the cost (and certainly more than 5 shillings).

569:

These bottom sections "Motorized tools and appliances" and "Switched-mode power supplies" are clearly not related to the article's topic whatsoever and should not be included in this article. I feel the article needs to adhere to it's title and lede description. Switching power supplies were not even

184:

I once looked at accident statistics for household electrocutions comparing Ontario and the UK. I don't have the links handy here and I can't recall exactly what my observations were; I think it worked out that electrocutions were a little higher per capita in Ontario, but higher per GWHr in the UK.

170:

Must have been cheaper, because that's how they were built. I suspect a voltage doubler might have required rather large capacitors and it would have been an interesting trade-off between costs of the two approaches; I suspect that another consideration was obtaining a filament supply for the picture

122:

I didn't say European TV sets didn't EVER use a power transformer. There were definitely TV sets without power transformers - they ran off DC. The HT off the mains wasn't enough, so it was boosted with energy recovered from the scan coils during flyback, but I doubt you could do this off 110VDC - see

2111:

I'm not demanding anything. Quite the opposite. The article is currently scoped to what it says in the lede. I have proposed a discussion on widening the scope of the article to include other types of AC/DC equipment. I have stated my viewpoint, but this is a collaborative effort. You obviously

2091:

or other signal-path bits. I see no reason to limit the scope as the transistor AM/FM set with the built-in step-down transformer *was* marketed as AC/DC in the 1970s (even though it won't accept 120VDC mains, typically being a 6-9VDC device). The term has evolved, say so, explain the distinction. A

2007:

and the death of 120VDC or 200VDC mains as a distribution medium meant that by the 1970s in radio "AC/DC" usually meant AC/battery operation. The line-powered transformerless radio died with the demise of vacuum tubes. It's a historical footnote at this point. The "hot chassis" or "floating chassis"

1971:

to remember vacuum tubes and he will not have a clue what you are talking about. Again, switch mode supplies will not leap to mind, because they are not known at all by anyone as AC/DC supplies and most engineers are actually unaware that they will operate from DC (though will appreciate it when it

1908:

will only work correctly from AC. But there is nothing that says that the ballast has to be an inductor. It can be a resistor in which case DC operation is quite posible. In the 1960's fluorescent fittings were available that used a 170 volt 60 watt filament lamp as balast (designed to run from a

1770:

The fragmentary diagram is no so atypical because it does represent fairly accurately the power circuitry of early type All American Five radios. Later radios did have the chassis itself isolated from what you describe as 'circuit common' by an RC network designed to provide some isolation from the

1753:

The 0.005 MFD capacitor that you refer to serves to decouple the centre tap of the rectifier heater as this is the reference point for all RF signals within the set. It is not a filter capacitor as such and certainly nothing to do with fitering ripple from the power supply. However, like the power

1658:

But there's a solid black line running from the common terminal of the dual electrolytic (labelled "Dual Capacitor 40-40 @150WVDC"), with a chassis ground symbol, running to the switch, then from the switch to the plug! A terrible fragmentary schematic, there's tons of more complete ones on the Web,

1345:

Perhaps the whole article needs to be removed. It's a mess and has been tainted badly with the DC usage statements that seem to only be imagination. We already have an article on the All American Five but it doesn't cover the many transformerless TV set designs I have witneessed. What equipment are

1287:

The clauses added from "solid state circuitry" was added to expand/list the reasons AC/DC equipment became obsolete. One editor wants to break the sentence into two sentences that appear unrelated to each other and presents some shock value to the reader. Another reader wants it removed after being

1154:

Historically, the loads that were connected to DC mains were not polarity sensitive (lights; heaters; cookers; DC motors etc.) so there was no need to specifically identify the actual polarity. A radio designed for DC mains was probably the first available appliance that was polarity sensitive. If

946:

Several countries in Europe do not have polarised plugs and indeed some still do not have earth connections. The Netherlands, Germany and Italy cetainly are not polarised at all. French sockets accept two pin continental plugs either way round (but are polarised for plugs with earth contact). The

897:

It would seem that at the time you tried to delete it, the article contained material totally irrelevant to the subject of the article (switch mode supplies; universal motors etc.). Some editors obviously believed that some explanation was necessary. With the deletion of that material, the subject

859:

are adequately linked at the head of the article. The last section describing the difference between the two is therefore completely redundant. In addition, it describes several alternative techniques, but remarks that they are totally unrelated to the subject matter of the article. Historically,

826:

waveform that appears across the line scan coils. Indeed due to the very low inductance and resistance, very little voltage actually appears, certainly not enough to rectify to produce a 700-1000 volt boost for the HT supply (the sort of value required in a valve colour TV set) or even several tens

734:

Early valve (tube) colour TV sets were built to the AC/DC design but I note from early service sheets that the sets were specified as operating on AC only. I can only assume that the lower HT voltages (as we like to call them) that would be available would not operate some circuits as well as would

333:

Too long,didn't read. Original research. Substation grounding design is not relevant to hair dryers falling in the tub, no matter how many anesthetized pigs are sent to hog heaven in lab trials. What are the actual statistics? The difference in risk of electrocution between 120 V AC and 240 V AC is

2363:

I had asked this question previously (I can't find it) and saw no answers but again... How do we know this "AC/DC" label isn't just a nickname for these transformerless sets? Can anybody actually produce a nameplate or claim they have seen one with this label? Perhaps we are spending a whole lot of

2213:

are AC/DC) but not added as an actual article section. They are AC/DC, we have an article on them, direct the reader there. The issue with the DC line being undervoltage with respect to a rectified AC line with the same RMS voltage (as RMS ≠ peak) has existed since the early line-powered radios and

2182:

Adding motors changes the whole concept of this article IMHO. Discussing motors, next comes all the universal switch-mode inverter power supplies with all kinds of equipment attached, military field equipment, perhaps rechargeable vehicles?, and the list would go on. As long as the title is unclear

1936:

But in spite of that, the scope of the article is still transformerless vacuum tube power supplies (the AC/DC design), with which universal motors has no connection whatsoever. SMPSUs don't either. That they are not referred to as 'AC/DC' supplies is not an opinion but a fact. I challenge you to

1844:

The input rectifier elements must be rated at twice the current that is required for AC operation. Few manufacturers are likely to oblige on cost grounds. All the input current on DC flows through two rectifiers, whereas on AC it is shared around all four. On DC the two rectifiers that do conduct

1403:

This type of design is known almost universally by radio and television engineers as "AC/DC" and as such that would be the correct article title. I cannot see any objection to 'transformerless power supply' and 'transformerless design' being set up as redirects (though the latter could be confused

1389:

does this article even exist under this name" I believe "transformerless" needs to be in the artlce title instead of any DC mention. Does anybody have an references to these schematics or manufacturer's brag on these units? I know techs referred to them as AC/DC but it may have just been a nickname.

1303:

Your quoted section is actually incorrect. The AC/DC design did not become obsolete when DC mains systems disappeared. DC operation was never a design goal and this fact is currently only implied in the article (it did state it, but has been lost in the edit war). The AC/DC design persisted long

1256:

Whilst not being able to speak for other countries, DC distribution (where it had existed) had all but disappeared in the UK before the AC/DC design appeared shortly after 1945. Prior to this all mains operated TV sets had mains transformers having been manufactured for just three years before war

1242:

sets (and most likely US TV sets) kept the mains connections separate from the chassis, but as you note, a capacitor would establish the chassis as a ground - at least for R.F. At least in the UK, the practice of directly connecting one side of the mains supply directly to the chassis persisted in

1237:

AC/DC equipment would have the tube heaters wired in a specific order, usually placing the sensitive tuner and R.F. tubes at the chassis end of the chain and the less sensitive tubes such as audio output and rectifier at the other end. If the chassis was live then the sensitive tubes would have an

1223:

I would be very surprised if any distribution system was not grounded somewhere (but someone will, no doubt, point out one that wasn't). The lack of a ground would risk the system acquiring voltages well above the distribution value. Even if I hire a (3 phase) generator for some public event, the

967:

Another issue for the repair techs was a "cheater cord" which could bypass the interlock usually consisting of a power cord attached to a passthrough mounted on the hardboard bck cover for the hot chassis TV sets. When the back was removed and the set auto-disconnected a "cheater cord" coud be used

686:

AC/DC designs although they did work off DC, the reality was that they did not work as well, if at all satisfactorily. This was because the HT supply was lower when operated from DC than it was from AC. A 240 volt AC/DC design (obviously) has an HT voltage of 240 volts when run from DC. But when

620:

Correct in every particular. What I find interesting is the claim that Murphy made an AC only radio that was 5 shillings (£0.25) cheaper than the AC/DC model. I cannot imagine what Murphy removed from the AC/DC design to arrive at an AC only design that would have saved 5 shillings. Does anyone

601:

to design a radio that would run of DC as well as AC, but simply to eliminate every possible component that it was possible to eliminate, in particular the relatively expensive mains transformer. The fact that the radio would also run from a DC supply was nothing more than a convenient side effect

563:

The description AC/DC refers to electrical equipment designed to operate on either alternating current (AC) or direct current (DC). This term typically describes certain types of vacuum tube radio or television receivers. AC/DC equipment was necessary because in the early days of vacuum tubes, some

526:

400:

I have run across instruments with midget switch-mode power supplies that are rated for both AC input and DC - I don't know what the general term is for these (universal power supplies?) but they tend to be in things like digital panel meters which sometimes get used in switchboards with DC control

1180:

Without any references I totally agree with your first paragraph and this is why I started the Eu vs. Am differences argument. Cripes we changes our systems from 25Hz to 60Hz in the early 50s and nobody reports any DC distribution when these sets were popular. At a few hundred km. from the nearest

1110:

In Europe (I have no personal knowledge) AC/DC sets may have been actually created for the usage on both mains voltages. 220v was high enough to run many of the higher voltages needed for the B++ plate supplies needed. I have no idea what voltage level of DC was distributed to the homes. If I read

806:

Some Murphy TV designs even managed to eliminate the booster diode itself relying on the line output pentode to rectify the flyback pulses from the transformer's primary (where the scan coils did not come into it). Early sets of this design had a very short life for the line output pentode as its

765:

Early colour TV sets to the AC/DC design were more likely to be specified as AC only because the ON/OFF switch was designed for AC and not DC. A switch designed for DC is more complicated to design because it must be designed such that an arc is not struck between the contacts when switched off.

267:

As AC/DC is of historical interest only it's not an important practical point; but the whole article is mainly historical so it's as relevant as the rest. I've "always known" as a matter of practical necessity that 220-240V is more hazardous than 110-120, but am having difficulty documenting it, I

2776:

This is something that I have come across in the past. The outfit I was working for wanted to market a 'soap-on-a-rope' type power supply for a particular product that we sold. Our intention was to market a 'world wide' multi voltage power supply (with IIRC 110, 120, 220 and 240 volt taps). We

2749:

who were shot down. It's been tried. The same or similar standard exists at Industry Canada under a different name, "ICES" for "interference causing equipment" but it is just a rehash of FCC US47 part 15A (for commercial/industrial) and 15B (residential). A cash register or point-of-sale terminal

1594:

In a linear power supply circuit, the first capacitor after the rectifier is usually referred to as 'the reservoir capacitor' but also gets refered to as a 'filter capacitor'. The second capacitor, usually placed after a resistor (or more rarely these days a choke) is usually referred to as 'the

1388:

The "tainted badly" retort was agreeing with your many statements about the design not related to DC distribution. IOW the article contains many fantasies using this reason. AFAIC these designs would never run on DC anyway for many historical timing and electrical reasons. This comes back to "Why

533:

This section regarding AC and DC theory is not related to the the article's topic whatsoever and should not be included here. The inclusion of this "training wheel" information distracts from the main topic badly and fattens the article unnecessarily. Should we be adding a section on Ohm's law or

419:

switch mode supply that has a rectifier as the input stage will run from a DC supply (unless it has a switch). They may not be rated that way (as DC mains are rare (if they exist at all), but they will work. They often require a DC voltage that is higher than the specified AC voltage (typically

226:

electrocutions in the USA; I don't know if they're lumped in with accidental in the stats. (Later) I think any casual research into deaths by electrocution is hopeless; you need deaths specifically from 110 or 220V, there are so many other voltages used in industry, rail, etc.; and from about the

83:

The difference between 120 V and 240 V AC mains is not particularly relevant to this article. I'm reasonably sure that at least as many people have been killed by accidental contact with 120 V as with 240 V, so a safety difference is non-existent and irrelevant anyway. There seems to have been no

2155:

Just out of interest, I tried to run a standard 20 watt CFL from a 230 volt DC supply only to discover that it would not start. However, increasing the voltage to 300 volts, it started and ran quite happily - until it suddenly went out after 10 minutes or so. Opening it up (have you ever tried

1926:

current (plus, as you say, a margin) as they only conduct on each half cycle (or in practice, less than that). The peak current rating for a rectifier is usually much greater than the average rating (for example a BYX38 is rated If(av)=2.5 amp but If(max)=38 Amps). When run from DC, two of the

1853:

But the real question is: does the scope of the article need to be expanded to cover all equipment that can run from AC or DC? It will become a very long article because there would be a need to include incandescent lamps; universal motors; fluorescent lamps; compact fluorescent lamps; electric

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picture. True: the deflection current would fall, but this is offset by the EHT voltage also falling. When the EHT voltage falls, the picture gets larger (simple electron dynamics: the electron beam spends longer in the deflection field so gets deflected further). This is why AC/DC receivers

2023:

The resistive ballast for fluorescent tubes is also not commonly used. It won't work if the minimum voltage to start the lamp is above line voltage and, even where it did work, it is woefully energy-inefficient - defeating the entire purpose of switching to fluorescent lighting. There are a few

2019:

The "universal AC/DC motor", however, is very much alive and well - mostly in small appliances where a motor that isn't locked in speed to the line frequency is desired. This needs to be a historical timeline as the usage of the "AC/DC" terminology has drifted over the years with the increasing

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While many would agree with you, Knowledge nevertheless requires references for any material likely to be challenged. The addition of the offending tag means that it has been challenged. However, there is an essay that suggests that references are not required for the blindingly obvious. See

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I would be interseted in where these Eu 220v systems were grounded. Was it a 110v centre tap neutral ground and not distributed? I worked with Dutch grid system protection techs and they talked about lightning jumping across the receptacle pins, as kids in Holland. I understood the distribution

281:

To support this I provided references that safety regulations mandate the use of 110V (via an expensive transformer) where there is electrical hazard in a country where 230V is the norm; and quoted "it has been estimated that if this recommendation for reduced voltage for portable apparatus was

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A PC is not classified as a 'domestic appliance' but as 'office equipment' where a voltage selector is permitted. Test equipment also hardly falls into the 'domestic appliance' category either. Many rules and regulations, particularly in the electrical field, are enacted for perverse reasons

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The line-voltage selection switch does exist in Canada (where it was common on old desktop PC's and some test equipment) but is becoming rare as SMPS designs have improved to auto-select for input voltage. Canada would be an odd place to prohibit these, as the real danger is that 120V will be

940:

appeared long before polarised plugs did in the US. The early sets were potentially lethal as the heads of the screws that held the chassis in place were on the exterior of the cabinet. The position was made worse because the single pole ON/OFF switch was in the wire connected to the chassis

271:

It certainly is justifiable by simple logic: it's well documented that the danger from electricity is due to current (it's volts that jolts, but mils that kills); studies of the danger document currents. Clearly 240V will pass about twice the current as 120V (I think that the body's resistance

920:

Being the supply power was connected to the metal chassis should the polarised plugs be mentioned? Were these AC/DC sets the creator of the polarised plug? This may apply to N.America but what about Europe? I understood from electrical people from Nethelands that Europe didn't use a grounded

802:

You cannot use an enthusiast's website to support an alternative position as such websites are not acceptable as citations for articles. The error on the cited site is why (and it may be that the owner of the site failed to appreciate the important distinction between the scan coils and scan

2061:

Change the name of the article to include a noun word. Currently it is not descriptive and only contains the adjective "AC/DC". Perhaps "Receivers (AC/DC)" or "Transformerless receiver sets" but I prefer the noun first in a title for researchers typing in titles and the WP autocomplete gives

1818:

This article was written to describe a significant development in the history of the power supply in domestic vacuum tube based radio, and later, television receivers. Its scope is even stated in the article lede. This type of power supply design is known almost universally among radio and

1447:

If one makes edit comments that don't describe the scope of edits, one should be preprared to find one's edits reverted when the first screenful shows a conspicuous degradation of the text. Hyphens and non-break spaces, Easter Egg links, arch in-line editorial comments, and changing the

1462:

Your persistent negative bias towards most changes by other editors may, eventually, pave your way out of English Knowledge. But now, be only prepared to have any your action, which looks clearly destructive to somebody’s good-faith edit (possibly a third party), be reduced with my .

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In short we coud be talking about two completely different concepts, circuit styles and reasons for existence and the article will always be a mess and arguments will ensue forever unless we admit and find a way to separate these differences. Comments? Techniques and methods?

2750:

only has to meet class A but a personal computer is exactly that, personal, and must comply with 15B. If this ban on 120V/240V switches existed in Canada (source, please? and why Canada?) then claiming home PCs as industrial devices would hit the same roadblocks.

941:(apparently saved the cost of a solder lug). The chassis and the screw heads were live if the set was either switched on or off depending on which way the plug was inserted. Later sets did not have externally accessible parts that could potentially be live. 1966:

Ask any engineer old enough to remember the good old days of vacuum tubes what an AC/DC power supply is and he will instantly think of transformerless vacuum tube radio and television sets. He will not think of modern switch mode supplies. Ask any engineer

1885:

Comments like "will operate from DC but are also not referred to 'AC/DC' and the rating plate never mentions DC anyway" in the article body are opinions, not facts. This is not an opinion/editorial page. Statements of opinion should be removed from the text.

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Only one side of the filter capacitor needs to be connected for a 'direct connection' to be established. If the mains plug is inserted such that the chassis of the radio is connected to the live mains conductor, then we can go one stage further and say that

1002:

A cheater cord was still needed. Repair shops did not use an isolation transformer in the Canadian shops I witnessed. It would be an additional cost and the chassis ground would then be floating making it more dangerous for test equiment and personnel.

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editor only (Wtshymanski - who else?) has decided that it should be in prose. His prose version makes it more difficult to extract and compare the essential points. He has quoted the manual of style which favours prose but with this statement,

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Whilst it may be argued that the transformerless radio and TV design was also very unlikely to be operated from a DC supply, it was nevertheless known as an AC/DC radio or television and it is to this that the article title (currently) alludes.

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would happily run on DC, but I don't know if such tools were promoted for DC areas. (I have seen an old electric power drill nameplated to run on 25 to 60 cycles). I wonder if Google's old copies of "Popular Science" has ads for DC power tools?

2713:

a frequency insensitive device. Try running your vacuum cleaner from an aircraft 400 Hz supply. It won't run. Even large railway 'universal' type traction motors have to be run from 16.7 Hz, because they are too large to run from 50 or 60 Hz

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I see it's been reverted again with summary "long essay on electrocution hazard better suited to another article; still not proven that 240 actually killed more than 120, and beside the point for this article anyway. How about power tools?

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DC-only equipment was usually a little cheaper than AC/DC, but became obsolete as AC power became dominant, solid state circuitry requiring less power evolved making transformer size requirements smaller, and safer designs were produced.

1143:!). That it operated on DC as well as AC was nothing more than a convenient side effect and exploited as a marketable feature. The design was not independantly created in Europe but simply copied once the AA5 designers had shown the way. 133:

I think what I write and reference here is enough to establish the validity and relevance of what I wrote in the article. I'm running out of time, so will simply reinstate what I wrote, and will add the AC/DC reference and tidy up later.

1728:. To draw an allusion, if you take the wires from your local mains supply, lick one finger and place it in contact with just the live wire, you will have little doubt that you have established a direct connection with the mains supply ( 1882:

The original use of "DC" to refer to Edison-style distribution of DC at line voltage is very obsolete, so the context should be explained (by the 1970's, "DC" was more likely to be battery or vehicle power - a quite different beast).

174:

Blows my mind that there appears to have been 240 V DC powered TV sets! I've got to check out these links. (I once had to run a color TV off 240 V DC but that's another story involving a VFAC drive and learning all about inrush

2623:

If anyone is pushing an agenda here, it seems to be you. The general concensus seems to be that the article scope should remain as it is. Out of scope material has occasionally been editied into the article by (presumably)

1477:

BTW, the only my invention here which can be characterized as an Easter Egg link is ]. Possibly, it was not a good choice, but I was not willing to make textual changes in a paragraph where I am not an expert. Just fix it.

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cookers; electric toasters; electric fires (but not fan heaters); curling tongs etc. etc. etc. I personally think not as the article was scoped for exactly what it was intended to describe. But I throw the floor open.

1101:

We appear to have two trains of thought involved in this article. We have the North American version and the European version of history and circuitry and they will not agree as different reasons and history happened.

1361:

The so called AC/DC design was an important milestone in the development of low cost radio and television designs. That fact alone more than justifies the article's existence. I'm not sure exactly what you mean by,

537:

Point form is fine with me and makes easy reading if kept short but is not the issue I am raising. Your ad hominem reference/attack is not wanted on WP and needs to be removed. Please discuss material and not people.

188:

And we don't know that areas that now have 240 V AC once also had 240 V DC distribution - utilities could easily have changed voltages when they changed to AC. Early carbon-filament bulbs worked better at 110 than at

668:

the other thing that Pol098 cannot seem to come to terms with is that the AC/DC design was produced with the sole intention of eliminating the transformer (and THREE different editors here have said so). All the

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to see what I am talking about. The fact that you are an IP address editor does not help because Wtshymanski does not believe that such editors should be allowed to edit 'his' encyclopedia. Stick with it, you

285:

I have simply reinstated my last edit to restore many other changes to the wording of other points I've made, but am amenable to removing the point about the hazards of high voltage pending resolution following

1840:

The supply must not be fitted with a mains switch. The switches usually encountered are not rated for DC. Switches for DC require a specialised design to extinguish any arc struck as the switch contacts are

1200:

I know some tube audio equipment would hum badly and the cure was to reverse the AC plug in the receptacle. Many of the floating chassis sets had a small cap from one of both lines to the metal chassis. Yuk!

983:

In a properly equipped and run repair facility, such a cord should have been energised from an isolating transformer removing the hazard altogether (although these days an RCCD would probably have sufficed).

570:

heard of in the era of the AC/DC electrical equipment that the title portrays and the lede describes. Perhaps these sections are hangovers from another merged article and lost their homes? Take them out.

221:

I still think that 220+ VAC is a lot more dangerous than 110V, but you think it's not, and in the absence of mortality figures for the 1950s there's not much to say. Certainly there'll have been a lot more

1181:

generating stations I doubt a few hundred volt DC transmission line went that far. Perhaps it was happening in Eu with less loading but not in Canada. I also doubt the DC came locally from battery systems.

2814:

if you still desire dispute resolution, but such a request would almost certainly also be removed so long as the move request is pending. Please wait until the move request is complete before attempting

654:

a transformer and reduce the price by 25 pence is obviously just plain bonkers. However, this may just be a feature of a specific model and not necessarily related to the model where the price did come

1788:

Your trademark sarcastic edit summary is wholly out of place because it is quite possible that Incnis Mrsi does not understand the concepts being discussed. As usual you are not assuming the required

1238:

electrostatic feed of 50 or 60 Hz into the cathode. Turning the plug round would, at least in theory, fix this. Early AC/DC sets had one side of the mains directly connected to the chassis. Later

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regions were supplied with AC power, others with DC. Equipment which by its nature can use either AC or DC, such as heating devices and incandescent light bulbs, is not usually described as “AC/DC”.

527:

2700:

You start your motor car like every one else from a battery and not a DC mains supply. Even Henry Ford realised that he could not provide a long enough mains cord for it to be otherwise practical.

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must dissipate twice as much heat. Having said that some rectifiers will cope because they come in fixed current ratings and some may be adequately rated because the next size down was too small.

2481:

be widened. This article was created solely to expand on the concept of transformerless vacuum tube receivers and as such is directly linked from articles discussing those designs (such as the

309:

about half the time to dump the same amount of energy. Not exactly half, and it varies with various parameters, but the picture is consistent. I'll modify the article later to incorporate this.

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every day and only rv v 8-10 of them, so it's mathematically not true that I have a negative bias toward most changes. But I can't blow the driveway without getting some snow in my face....--

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section acquired various disclaimers, caveats and flags stating that large parts of it were not relevant to the article as it now is, which meant that its deletion was just a matter of time.

1927:

rectifier diodes have to conduct the full DC current constantly, thus the average current through them is near enough double what it would be on AC. The other two are effectively redundant.

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circuit). Such sites do not have the backing of a recognised authority on the subject. Otherwise, I could produce a website that claimed anything and use it to cite some dubious point.

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240 volt AC supply). To operate reliably from a DC supply, a means has to be provided to reverse the polarity to the tube at each start as indeed was the case in very early DC fittings.

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The tube radio powered directly from the rectified line was only the first (or one of the first) applications to be labelled "AC/DC". A search for "AC/DC motor" finds tons of hits for

2324:

Moved above response to corrected threading position by date and time order. K7L. You were asked to be more careful with your indenting. I have to AGF but it sure looked retaliatory.

2532:

I have been reamed out quite a few times in reverts as other editors do not like statements about what an article is not. It does create clutter and technically could go on forever:

1107:

Hard to design circuits for that wide of a range without circuit changes. The metal chassis was grounded via polarised plugs and no ground pin was available in most home recepticals.

1981:

In any case, the ability of some switch mode supplies to operate from DC is entirely moot as DC mains supplies have been somewhat hard to find since such supplies were developed.

1837:

The input circuit must be a bridge rectifier, not a voltage doubler circuit. Many supplies, particularly in 100-120 volt areas have the latter. No voltage doubler works from DC.

1677:

common pole with the mains switch, but, since it is only one, this is not a situation which can be described as a “filter connected directly to the mains”, as I understand this.

1653: 1572: 1830:'see also' is also out of scope, because although transformerless (as in never having featured one), it nevertheless has nothing whatsoever to do with vacuum tube equipment. 2664:

If the article scope is not going to change, then the links in those articles are inappropriate and need to be directed to a more suitable article or not be links at all.

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section which is needlessly repetitive). I note that one paragraph has recently had a rewrite. If you feel that the article's wording can be improved, then go ahead, be

2031:

Incandescent bulbs are primarily resistive and very indifferent to line frequency unless used with dimmers (which need AC because they switch at the zero-crossing) or

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AC/DC television and radio sets. I believe that it was the American Underwiter's Laboratory that insisted that the direct connection was removed in US sold equipment.

807:

control grid was never designed to rectify large current pulses. Mazda had to produce the special 30P4MR line output pentode which was designed to handle the pulses.

2020:

irrelevance of using valves (tubes) for broadcast reception. If the term "AC/DC" only referred to tube radios, it would have been dead decades ago and long forgotten.

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I suggest looking at the schematic of any "All American five"-type radio, when you will notice a direct connection between one side of the filter cap and the line. --

860:

it may have had relevance to some unrelated material that used to be in the article. This section is now completely superfluous and irrelevant and I have thus been

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This is not a great article at all. I don't see much substance and it's not even entertaining to read. I think it needs some work. I list a few things I noticed.

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and AC/DC radio - which seems rather pointless, as it still doesn't justify your demands to limit the scope to a 1950s-era transformerless five-tube receiver.

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Regulations in some 230V places require power tools used professionally to be rated at 110V and used of 230V through isolating (not auto!) 110V transformers.

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The scope of the article has been the same since inception in 2008. Are you bursting at the seams with motor information and have no place to put it? :)

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processes at Knowledge will not take on a case which is pending in another process or forum. I would ordinarily advise that you could make a request at

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What do you try to say about the dual electrolytic? It is connected to (output of) the rectifier, not “directly to the mains”. You may say that it has

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results as these (unlike the hot-chassis tube radio receiver) are still manufactured and still in widespread use. I don't see why one line linking to

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radio receiver in the USA. It was devised as part of the design goal of that set, which was to make it as cheap as was possible to manufacture (

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This article is about AC/DC equipment containing tubes from a past electronics era. The lede explains this and I quote: (for Pete sake read it!)

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Some of the existing inbound links make no sense if you apply that sort of arbitrary scope limitation to this page. This page is linked from

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yeah verily, even unto one terminal of the electrolytic filter capacitor - at least in those hot-chassis sets using half-wave rectifiers. --

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we actually discussing? How is the article title even related? This article looks like it should be renamed "Transformerless receivers"

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2. "This type of equipment continued to be produced long after AC became the universal standard due to its cost advantage over AC-only".

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that they will run from DC. The same is true of the compact fluorescent lamp. But in any case, the ability to run from DC is entirely

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Yeah, somebody change the article title to "Receivers (hot chassis)" and get this repeated distraction done for once and for all.

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feel that a wider scope is justified (though battery/mains radios is pushing it a bit). Propose, discuss and justify a widening.

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AC/DC equipment was necessary because in the early days of vacuum tubes, some regions were supplied with AC power, others with DC."

390: 2035:(which won't turn off if used with DC). The same is not true of fluorescent ballasts unless they're electronic SMPS-like designs. 2628:

editors, but never for long. As 174.118.142.187 correctly points out, the article scope has not changed since its inception.

2028:

using SMPS-like techniques to generate high frequencies which can be easily current-limited or stepped up in voltage as needed.

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3. The "Modern equipment" section does not state what type of modern equipment is considerated, except of a reference to cars.

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True. But no claim was made otherwise. A rectifier and voltage doubler are not the same thing (though they are related).

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As for an edit war, you are correct. The article has been recently mauled by an established and tendentious edit warrior,

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More likely, the information was here at various points but someone (maybe you) has been removing it to push an agenda?

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This article is about AC/DC equipment containing tubes from a past electronics era. The lede explains this and I quote:

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Actually, it's manufacturers trying to pass home PCs off as "office equipment" to qualify under a more lax section of

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of an autotransformer to boost voltages lower than 240 volts to the required 240 volts. But the idea that they could

1904:

Fluorescent tubes are inherently AC or DC. That the ballast is often chosen to be a series inductor, means that the

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the reason AC/DC equipment came into being. AC/DC equipment first saw the light of day with the development of the

2083:

A battery radio is a transformerless receiver (until some of these allow AC/battery operation by adding a built-in

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by the manufacturers of those appliances, plus the entire subject is moot as no one is likely to want to operate

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editors feel that it is best presented as a bulleted list as it makes the comparison easier for the lay reader.

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or some other frequency-insensitive device alters the scope so badly that you need to create another article?

1754:

supply filter capacitors is is directly connected to the incoming mains supply for exactly the same reasons.

1366:, though some of the article's claims are incorrect. It has become quite scrappy in places (particularly the 1849:

voltage (of 339 volts for a 240 volt RMS supply). The power supply load lowers the actual reservoir voltage.

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because he baldly disagrees with changes in only one phrase, then it is nothing but a content disruption.

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tube, which was apparently not convenient to put into the series string with all the other tube filaments.

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You are wrong. An undervolted CRT TV does not display an undersize picture. It prety much displays the

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4. "modern equipment is often powered from low-voltage DC, typically a 12V battery in a motor vehicle"

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my comment in the article about the lower voltage available off 110V. If you want a reference see the

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Knowledge. The admins have so far failed to take much in the way of action. You might care to read

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There has been some edit warring on the method of pesentation of the differences between AC and DC.

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Yes. But switch mode supplies that have a voltage doubler stage at the input will not work on DC. --

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because there are no DC mains supplies off which to run them, so it is of academic interest only.

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Just checked the nameplate on my TV... "Viewsonic N2201W 100-240V 50/60Hz 75W". Go figure. An

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Tables of the duration of touch exposure to voltage for 50% chance of ventricular fibrillation

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correctly. You appear to be replying to yourself, but saying something totally unconnected.

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I assume an RCCD is a GFCI in Europeanese. I couldn't find any description for the acronym.

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Either 120 or 240 V is quite sufficient to kill a human, so the safety argument is a wash.

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I've reinstated the statement that 220+V is more dangerous than 110+, with documentation.

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There exist seldom situations when pushing to link is an appropriate action. But if one

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Netherlands generally has no earth connection except in wet locations such as bathrooms.

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Input rectifier diodes on switch mode supplies are rated for the peak voltage, but only

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You have not provided any justification for the scope of the article to be widened.

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for what must rate as common sense. I would say that this falls into that category.

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of no practical significance and is quite irrelevant to the topic of this article. --

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to do test repairs. It was usuallyan old cord from a previously scrapped receiver.

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I don't see how the scope of the article could be widened very much. Granted, it

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1. "The operation of the power supply is further described in another article".

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If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the

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from DC these days and thus the issue should be considered unencyclopeadic.

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What means the word “filter” in this context? A filter of what? If it is a

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60 Hz mains supply but not the RF signals the set was designed to receive.

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suggestions. Keep the scope of the article as it was originally intended

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This sentence is inappropriate. I would eliminate it from the paragraph.

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I know nothing whatever about AC/DC power tools or practical motor use.

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fluorescent lamps in battery-powered operation, but they're likely all

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the filter capacitor is connected directly to the live mains conductor

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A reference on AC/DC TV PSUs into the colour and semiconductor era:

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Not really. The AC/DC technique was devised with the birth of the

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http://www.angelfire.com/electronic/funwithtubes/images/AA5-1.gif

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capitalization in footnotes, are unfortunately all swept away. --

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Unrelated, off-topic sections make this article look amateurish!.

51: 17: 1049:'. I even previewed it before I saved it and still missed it. 794:

The boosted HT supply is obtained by recovering energy from the

107:"It must have been cheaper to put in a power transformer than a 2183:

this will persist, despite what the lede says, as it is again.

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This article isn't going to work this way! American vs European

602:(at least to those few users who still had a DC mains supply). 2032: 2009: 1833:

Four criteria have to be met for any SMPSU to work from DC.

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A rectifier and a filter are connected directly to the mains

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Some tubes ran at 32 V on the plates...quietly, though. See

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Your unique perspective challenges and refreshes us all. --

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Excellent! I was jumped on when I orignally attempted it.

1563:"), then it cannot be “connected directly to the mains”. 289:

Power tools: I have nothing to say, having no knowledge.

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The article neglects AC/DC power tools; anything using a

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A couple of editors have attempted to add a link to the

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with other areas where transformers are designed out).

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I agree. But the lede isn't even correct. It states,

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It is very rare to find service sheets that show the

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claims in the article that the complication was the

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design of radio receiver. The design objective was

1624:The plate is bypassed to ground by a .005 mike cap 501:The concensus here is that the information is much 1869:Fluorescent lamps are not inherently AC/DC as the 2314:receiver that can be powered from British mains. 505:to read in prose form so that this not relevant. 2209:Motors should be mentioned (one line indicating 1644:(even if to neglect the switch), do you see it? 831:line output transformers connected in parallel. 2723:Any other points you want me to shoot down? 2538:This article is not about automobile radios. 713:This last point is very relevant. Even the 227:1950s when they were less safety-conscious. 379:This does not sound like a great sentence. 2092:rename would put a disambiguation here to 2544:This article is not about the rock group. 1640:. I do not see such direct connection at 790:Energy recovery in TV deflection circuit. 14: 1139:other considerations were secondary - 48:Do not edit the contents of this page. 1636:is not a filter capacitor, connected 1313:who somehow seems to believe that he 370:Should it be "over DC-only" instead? 1617: 420:30-40% higher) to operate properly. 29: 2089:intermediate frequency transformers 1878:until "awakened" by remote control. 27: 2541:This article is not about hammers. 1191:wasn't grounded at all into homes. 28: 2845: 2535:This article is not about motors. 2477:The scope of this article should 2798:I am a regular volunteer at the 1045:A typo. I thought I had typed ' 33: 921:conductor on their 220v grids. 2812:Dispute Resolution Noticeboard 2804:Dispute Resolution Noticeboard 2579:Fitzsimons Army Medical Centre 1732:Don't try this at home folks!) 13: 1: 1503:20:51, 28 February 2013 (UTC) 1488:20:06, 28 February 2013 (UTC) 1473:19:53, 28 February 2013 (UTC) 1458:19:14, 28 February 2013 (UTC) 1442:18:21, 28 February 2013 (UTC) 1399:02:22, 10 December 2012 (UTC) 1384:17:25, 23 November 2012 (UTC) 1356:02:58, 23 November 2012 (UTC) 1334:17:56, 23 November 2012 (UTC) 1298:02:58, 23 November 2012 (UTC) 1267:12:38, 20 November 2012 (UTC) 1211:01:06, 19 November 2012 (UTC) 1171:18:56, 17 November 2012 (UTC) 1126:00:47, 17 November 2012 (UTC) 1085:01:41, 20 November 2012 (UTC) 1059:18:23, 17 November 2012 (UTC) 1033:13:30, 17 November 2012 (UTC) 1013:13:26, 17 November 2012 (UTC) 994:13:17, 16 November 2012 (UTC) 978:04:05, 16 November 2012 (UTC) 957:13:11, 16 November 2012 (UTC) 931:04:05, 16 November 2012 (UTC) 908:12:51, 15 November 2012 (UTC) 889:04:52, 15 November 2012 (UTC) 874:17:08, 14 November 2012 (UTC) 841:13:20, 15 November 2012 (UTC) 817:16:43, 13 November 2012 (UTC) 776:12:41, 15 November 2012 (UTC) 745:18:12, 14 November 2012 (UTC) 697:13:35, 14 November 2012 (UTC) 631:18:09, 13 November 2012 (UTC) 612:15:08, 10 November 2012 (UTC) 1559:(an obvious association to " 580:23:42, 29 October 2012 (UTC) 548:23:02, 29 October 2012 (UTC) 484:Difference between AC and DC 391:06:14, 5 February 2012 (UTC) 344:20:03, 5 February 2010 (UTC) 319:19:31, 5 February 2010 (UTC) 299:18:55, 5 February 2010 (UTC) 256:15:27, 5 February 2010 (UTC) 237:19:36, 4 February 2010 (UTC) 206:19:15, 4 February 2010 (UTC) 162:18:14, 4 February 2010 (UTC) 144:16:50, 4 February 2010 (UTC) 102:15:31, 4 February 2010 (UTC) 7: 2322:) 15:46, 12 May 2013 (UTC) 2160:and completely unciteable. 2087:), at least if one ignores 10: 2850: 2571:aspirator (medical device) 1896:02:32, 30 April 2013 (UTC) 1864:19:25, 28 April 2013 (UTC) 1414:14:28, 17 March 2013 (UTC) 515:11:46, 4 August 2012 (UTC) 472:11:30, 4 August 2012 (UTC) 446:20:23, 1 August 2012 (UTC) 430:18:00, 1 August 2012 (UTC) 396:Switch-mode AC/DC supplies 1802:16:39, 3 March 2013 (UTC) 1764:16:25, 3 March 2013 (UTC) 1730:Health and safety notice: 1701:22:59, 2 March 2013 (UTC) 1687:20:41, 2 March 2013 (UTC) 1669:20:10, 2 March 2013 (UTC) 1654:17:33, 2 March 2013 (UTC) 1609:15:15, 2 March 2013 (UTC) 1588:21:21, 1 March 2013 (UTC) 1573:15:11, 1 March 2013 (UTC) 1537:15:27, 2 March 2013 (UTC) 1518:14:42, 1 March 2013 (UTC) 1075:Thanks! New term for me. 411:19:45, 31 July 2012 (UTC) 308:twice the current ==: --> 2835:15:01, 16 May 2013 (UTC) 2787:11:39, 16 May 2013 (UTC) 2760:14:54, 14 May 2013 (UTC) 2733:11:52, 14 May 2013 (UTC) 2674:11:37, 14 May 2013 (UTC) 2638:11:37, 14 May 2013 (UTC) 2619:04:32, 14 May 2013 (UTC) 2605:03:10, 14 May 2013 (UTC) 2591:02:12, 14 May 2013 (UTC) 2575:transparent heating film 2559:00:59, 14 May 2013 (UTC) 2528:15:58, 13 May 2013 (UTC) 2500:11:35, 13 May 2013 (UTC) 2460:11:35, 13 May 2013 (UTC) 2417:11:35, 13 May 2013 (UTC) 2374:20:19, 12 May 2013 (UTC) 2334:20:14, 12 May 2013 (UTC) 2306:15:45, 12 May 2013 (UTC) 2224:11:07, 11 May 2013 (UTC) 2193:02:31, 11 May 2013 (UTC) 2170:16:56, 10 May 2013 (UTC) 2122:16:14, 10 May 2013 (UTC) 2106:14:49, 10 May 2013 (UTC) 2072:11:17, 10 May 2013 (UTC) 1824:switch mode power supply 1792:that Knowledge demands. 2045:13:15, 7 May 2013 (UTC) 1991:10:47, 4 May 2013 (UTC) 1956:15:37, 3 May 2013 (UTC) 1599:(about half way down). 1430:removes numerous tweaks 796:line output transformer 1285: 567: 530: 2800:Third Opinion project 2709:A universal motor is 1638:directly to the mains 1280: 1277:Obsolesence statement 560: 523: 196:and its talk page. -- 46:of past discussions. 847:Section on AC and DC 1557:reservoir capacitor 354:Not a great article 79:Regional variations 2817:dispute resolution 2808:dispute resolution 2140:reliable reference 2026:electronic ballast 1341:Article existence? 22:DC receiver design 2802:(and also at the 2567:power electronics 2516:incandescent lamp 2483:All American Five 2336: 2158:original research 1631: 1630: 1240:All American Five 1161:comment added by 1133:All American Five 938:All American Five 715:All American Five 671:All American Five 595:All American Five 565: 528: 194:All American Five 76: 75: 58: 57: 52:current talk page 2841: 2831: 2825: 2819:again. Regards, 2581:, among others. 2323: 2244:Please learn to 2211:universal motors 2005:universal motors 1814:Scope of article 1618: 1173: 1141:including safety 864:and deleted it. 562: 525: 67: 60: 59: 37: 36: 30: 2849: 2848: 2844: 2843: 2842: 2840: 2839: 2838: 2829: 2821: 2597:174.118.142.187 2551:174.118.142.187 2512:universal motor 2508:universal motor 2366:174.118.142.187 2326:174.118.142.187 2185:174.118.142.187 2136:universal motor 2094:universal motor 2064:174.118.142.187 1828:Universal motor 1816: 1553: 1426: 1391:174.118.142.187 1374:and have a go. 1348:174.118.142.187 1343: 1290:174.118.142.187 1279: 1203:174.118.142.187 1156: 1118:174.118.142.187 1099: 1077:174.118.142.187 1025:174.118.142.187 1005:174.118.142.187 970:174.118.142.187 965: 923:174.118.142.187 918: 916:Polarized plugs 881:174.118.142.187 849: 792: 572:174.118.142.187 556: 540:174.118.142.187 486: 398: 356: 109:voltage doubler 89:universal motor 81: 63: 34: 26: 25: 24: 12: 11: 5: 2847: 2823:TransporterMan 2796: 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1006: 1001: 1000: 999: 998: 995: 991: 987: 982: 981: 980: 979: 975: 971: 963:Cheater cords 958: 954: 950: 945: 944: 939: 935: 934: 933: 932: 928: 924: 909: 905: 901: 896: 895: 894: 893: 890: 886: 882: 878: 877: 876: 875: 871: 867: 863: 858: 854: 842: 838: 834: 830: 825: 821: 820: 819: 818: 814: 810: 804: 800: 797: 777: 773: 769: 764: 763: 762: 761: 760: 759: 758: 757: 756: 755: 746: 742: 738: 733: 732: 731: 730: 729: 728: 727: 726: 716: 712: 711: 710: 709: 708: 707: 706: 705: 698: 694: 690: 685: 684: 683: 682: 681: 680: 672: 667: 666: 665: 664: 663: 662: 653: 649: 645: 642: 641: 640: 639: 638: 637: 632: 628: 624: 619: 618: 617: 616: 613: 609: 605: 600: 596: 592: 588: 584: 583: 582: 581: 577: 573: 566: 559: 549: 545: 541: 536: 532: 531: 529: 519: 518: 517: 516: 512: 508: 504: 500: 495: 491: 473: 469: 465: 461: 460: 459: 458: 457: 456: 455: 454: 447: 443: 439: 435: 434: 433: 432: 431: 427: 423: 418: 415: 414: 413: 412: 408: 404: 393: 392: 388: 384: 380: 377: 374: 371: 368: 365: 362: 359: 345: 341: 337: 332: 331: 330: 329: 328: 327: 320: 316: 312: 306: 302: 301: 300: 296: 292: 262: 261: 260: 259: 258: 257: 253: 249: 238: 234: 230: 225: 217: 216: 215: 214: 213: 212: 207: 203: 199: 195: 191: 187: 183: 182: 181: 180: 173: 169: 168: 167: 166: 163: 159: 155: 152: 149: 148: 145: 141: 137: 126: 115: 114: 110: 106: 105: 104: 103: 99: 95: 90: 85: 72: 69: 66: 62: 61: 53: 49: 45: 44: 39: 32: 31: 23: 19: 2822: 2797: 2710: 2626:well meaning 2487: 2478: 2476: 2270: 2162:86.171.45.79 2134:include the 2131: 2082: 1968: 1923: 1919: 1905: 1852: 1832: 1821: 1817: 1729: 1725: 1674: 1637: 1554: 1427: 1363: 1344: 1323: 1286: 1281: 1157:— Preceding 1140: 1136: 1114: 1100: 966: 919: 850: 828: 823: 805: 801: 793: 651: 647: 598: 590: 586: 568: 561: 557: 524: 507:86.150.65.44 502: 498: 493: 489: 487: 464:86.150.65.44 422:86.150.65.44 416: 399: 381: 378: 375: 372: 369: 366: 363: 360: 357: 245: 223: 86: 82: 64: 47: 41: 2747:FCC Part 15 1794:86.166.71.0 1756:86.166.71.0 1693:Wtshymanski 1679:Incnis Mrsi 1661:Wtshymanski 1646:Incnis Mrsi 1601:86.166.71.0 1580:Wtshymanski 1565:Incnis Mrsi 1529:86.166.71.0 1510:Wtshymanski 1495:Wtshymanski 1480:Incnis Mrsi 1465:Incnis Mrsi 1450:Wtshymanski 1434:Incnis Mrsi 1368:Transformer 1311:Wtshymanski 589:. This is 438:Wtshymanski 403:Wtshymanski 336:Wtshymanski 286:discussion. 198:Wtshymanski 94:Wtshymanski 40:This is an 2725:I B Wright 2666:I B Wright 2630:I B Wright 2298:I B Wright 2144:un-notable 2114:I B Wright 2085:AC adapter 1948:I B Wright 1856:I B Wright 1841:separated. 1790:good faith 1406:I B Wright 809:I B Wright 689:I B Wright 2714:properly. 2271:same size 1561:rectifier 648:inclusion 401:power. -- 175:current). 71:Archive 2 65:Archive 1 2488:anything 1906:assembly 1159:unsigned 303:Got it! 125:Pye B18T 20:‎ | 1924:average 1871:ballast 1525:WP:BLUE 824:voltage 43:archive 18:Talk:AC 2246:indent 2033:TRIACs 2016:tuner. 1424:button 644:Pol098 503:harder 311:Pol098 291:Pol098 248:Pol098 229:Pol098 154:Pol098 136:Pol098 2132:could 2010:DVB-T 851:Both 655:down. 490:Three 383:ICE77 16:< 2830:TALK 2783:talk 2756:talk 2729:talk 2670:talk 2634:talk 2615:talk 2601:talk 2587:talk 2577:and 2555:talk 2524:talk 2496:talk 2456:talk 2413:talk 2370:talk 2330:talk 2320:talk 2312:ATSC 2302:talk 2220:talk 2189:talk 2166:talk 2118:talk 2102:talk 2068:talk 2041:talk 2014:ATSC 1987:talk 1952:talk 1922:the 1920:half 1892:talk 1860:talk 1798:talk 1760:talk 1697:talk 1683:talk 1665:talk 1650:talk 1605:talk 1597:here 1584:talk 1569:talk 1533:talk 1514:talk 1499:talk 1484:talk 1469:talk 1454:talk 1438:talk 1410:talk 1395:talk 1380:talk 1372:bold 1352:talk 1330:talk 1319:this 1315:owns 1294:talk 1263:talk 1207:talk 1167:talk 1122:talk 1081:talk 1055:talk 1029:talk 1009:talk 990:talk 974:talk 953:talk 936:The 927:talk 904:talk 885:talk 870:talk 862:bold 855:and 837:talk 813:talk 772:talk 741:talk 693:talk 627:talk 608:talk 576:talk 544:talk 511:talk 468:talk 442:talk 426:talk 407:talk 387:talk 340:talk 315:talk 295:talk 252:talk 233:talk 202:talk 189:220. 158:talk 140:talk 98:talk 2752:K7L 2711:not 2611:K7L 2583:K7L 2520:K7L 2479:not 2316:K7L 2216:K7L 2098:K7L 2037:K7L 2012:or 1888:K7L 1675:one 1137:all 1047:RCD 829:two 652:add 599:not 591:not 494:One 417:Any 2833:) 2785:) 2758:) 2731:) 2672:) 2636:) 2617:) 2603:) 2589:) 2573:, 2569:, 2557:) 2526:) 2514:, 2498:) 2458:) 2415:) 2372:) 2332:) 2304:) 2222:) 2191:) 2168:) 2120:) 2104:) 2070:) 2043:) 1989:) 1954:) 1894:) 1862:) 1800:) 1762:) 1699:) 1685:) 1667:) 1652:) 1627:” 1621:“ 1607:) 1586:) 1571:) 1535:) 1516:) 1501:) 1486:) 1471:) 1456:) 1440:) 1412:) 1397:) 1382:) 1354:) 1332:) 1296:) 1265:) 1209:) 1169:) 1124:) 1083:) 1057:) 1031:) 1011:) 992:) 976:) 955:) 929:) 906:) 887:) 872:) 857:DC 853:AC 839:) 815:) 774:) 743:) 695:) 629:) 610:) 578:) 546:) 513:) 470:) 444:) 428:) 409:) 389:) 342:) 317:) 297:) 254:) 235:) 204:) 160:) 142:) 100:) 92:-- 2827:( 2781:( 2754:( 2727:( 2668:( 2632:( 2613:( 2599:( 2585:( 2553:( 2522:( 2494:( 2454:( 2411:( 2368:( 2328:( 2318:( 2300:( 2218:( 2187:( 2164:( 2116:( 2100:( 2066:( 2039:( 1985:( 1950:( 1890:( 1858:( 1796:( 1758:( 1695:( 1681:( 1663:( 1648:( 1603:( 1582:( 1567:( 1531:( 1512:( 1497:( 1482:( 1467:( 1452:( 1436:( 1408:( 1393:( 1378:( 1350:( 1328:( 1292:( 1261:( 1205:( 1165:( 1120:( 1079:( 1053:( 1027:( 1007:( 988:( 972:( 951:( 925:( 902:( 883:( 868:( 835:( 811:( 770:( 739:( 691:( 625:( 606:( 574:( 542:( 509:( 466:( 440:( 424:( 405:( 385:( 338:( 313:( 293:( 250:( 231:( 200:( 156:( 138:( 96:( 54:.

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