1242:, with a millennia of Arab history and culture interspersed. While it is true that the San Remo convention of 1920, and the United Nations in 1948, recognised the establishment of a Jewish homeland, let us not forget that Israel's "legal" connection to the land does not begin with these international instruments of "peace" and "world order," such as laid out in one convention or another, for if that were the case, I can assure you that they will use those same instruments to divorce Israel from its own land. Do not put more authority in their litigation than what Israel's rights convey to them by virtue of Israel's history in the land. The sons of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are entitled to cherish their ancestral homeland and choose to live therein. Of course, this doesn't mean that Jews should evict Arabs from the land, those who have lived here for hundreds of years. We share the land together, in spite of all the wrongs and ill-will that has happened between the two peoples. It is not our role as editors to pass judgment and to say that one people have no title to the land, or are not entitled to live in this country, or that they have no part in the country. Try remaining neutral. That is what I am asking of you to do. If not, you are being disruptive as per Knowledge's policies. Oh, and one more thing: Israeli settlements, be they new or old, are still towns.
1841:- look again. What is built is a 492 meter long segment (I measured on govmap.il) on the north flank of Beit Hadagan (probably as an anti-sniper obstacle) - it is completely open on both sides - the corresponds to the very small purple (completed) segment in the midst of the the uncompleted dotted red (a bit to the West, and a whole lot - the entire Eastern Flank of Gush Etzion - to the east)). B'Tselem seems accurate on completion status, though I will note that I think they are in error in that they moved the completed segment some 200 meters east (their segment orientation looks like instead of taking the bend to the west, they took the bend to the east). The aqueduct runs through there (or underneath there) as well. The distance from the Northen edge of Beit Hadagan, including a little swerve to the East around the wall, to the easternmost pool is 414 meters (measured as well on govmap.il).
929:, the first pool and aqueduct are popularly held to have been built by King Solomon, an attribution reinforced by Artas historian Sanad Mousa. Yet some Palestinians and others involved with the renovation of the pools believe that the traces found through excavation in the last centuries point only as far back as the first century AD." (END QUOTE). Actually, both views are correct. One of the aqueducts is of late antiquity (only one pool having thus far been dated to around the mid-2nd to mid- 1st century BCE, based on its late masonry), but the pools' original foundation is long thought to have been built by King Solomon. Hence: "The pools are thought to date back to the time of
1785:
centre of
Bethlehem is 3.9km away and the closest edge of Bethlehem is only about 2–3 km away (I can't say exactly because I lost my map that shows the municipal boundary). Regarding Israeli settlements, the Givat HaDagan neighborhood of Efrat might as well be on another planet since it is on the opposite site of the Separation Wall. It deserves no mention anywhere in the article without a source indicating a notable connection. The close proximity to the wall is more significant. Incidentally, one thing missing from this article is the fact that this place is in Area A.
2483:- though not for reasons given by others. The fact that modern human settlements have no connection to the ancient site is irrelevant to locating these ancient sites. A minimal description of where, ie "Place X is located Ykms North West of Z in Illyria" (where Z is linkable and, ideally, a recognisable name) is sufficient. We aren't a trip-advise source and the info need be no more than that necessary for a world audience to 'get its bearings'. Locals will not need to be informed of this level of detail and 'foreigners' will not benefit from the additional info.
2639:, where he writes on page 340: "Many scholars hold that both the pools and these vast rock caverns underneath the temple plateau were constructed by King Solomon." Archaeologists, for their part, have no way of determining whether or not the pools were renovated throughout its nearly three millennia of history and/or upgraded with the times. It remains a grey-area, even in archaeological terms. Even the second source is not 100% certain, citing no reliable or verifiable sources, but only "...Their construction was
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of Efrat or any other settlement. If you want to include that some colony is near this cite then bring a source that makes any note of that, but try not to forget that for Efrat, Beitar Illit, or any other settlement Israel has established that the most common term to describe them in reliable sources is "Israeli settlement". That is what matters here, not the rights of Isaac and Jacob.
2112:, where a respected editor gave his personal opinion, saying: "Israeli settlements may be towns in the generic sense, but there is no general world consensus that they are in the State of Israel, as distinct from Israeli occupied territory. However, the mere locational marker to the place of that name is not a jurisdictional statement , and it does not make sense to remove it."
921:, Solomon would take leisurely rides to this site in his chariot. Your words, however, showed no caution whatsoever, but you assumed that Solomon had nothing to do with these pools whatsoever. Firstly, there is a conventional view that says that the pools are somehow connected to King Solomon, as you can see by the writer of this article, Dima Srouji,
2427:- would see the Efrat neighborhoods of Givat Hatamar and Ha-Dagan as being relevant landmarks from the south of the pools. It is also relevant as being located on-top of the water source and the aqueduct leading water to the pool - I don't think you are serious contesting Habier spring/waterway being located here.
2528:
3323:
I compared the image to aerial photographs and I'm 100% sure you are right. Good catch! I don't think that we can just flip the image back to its proper orientation, as one reason that people flip images is to avoid detection of copyright violations. I have deleted it for now, so we need a new image.
3275:
2634:
traditionally associated with King
Solomon, scholars today believe the pools to be much younger, with the oldest part dating to the 2nd century BCE." When reviewing the sources cited for these claims, it is not clear that the belief in the legend that Solomon built these pools does not continue to be
2347:
it has nothing to do with the pool". The most basic requirement for material in one of our encyclopedia articles is that it be verifiable and that it be demonstrated to be a significant view by reliable sources. No reliable source considers it significant that the closest
Israeli settlement is Efrat.
1820:
I was misled by the Amud Anan map that shows the wall complete, but in any case you are wrong. The wall directly between Givat HaDagan and the Pools is under construction according to
Btselem's map and the scars of the construction are clearly visible on the satellite image. I don't know how recently
1633:
David, can you please provide any reliable sources that show the proximity of this ancient site to modern day
Israeli settlements is something that is given any note? Absent that then no, you have not satisfied the basic minimum requirement for material in an encyclopedia article. If you provide such
3282:
I think there might be an issue with the article's lead image. I think that the square enclosed area in the foreground is Qalat al-Burak, 17th-century fort. However, the fort is located on the north side of the upper pool (the westernmost of the three). So I think that the image has been flipped. Is
3136:
Where exactly does the chapter on history refer to
Solomon? I can't see what you are talking about. In any case, archeological excavations undoubtedly show that the aqueducts stretching from Solomon's Pools to Jerusalem did supply water to the Temple Mount. As the article mentions, this whole system
3048:
The key bits are "The architecture of the internal structures within the Dam Wall together with a preliminary typological assessment of the earliest hydraulic plasters within the pool suggests a date within the Roman Period for the initial construction of the LP." and "Ongoing excavations at the top
2870:
As part of the Oslo agreements, Bethlehem came under
Palestinian Authority control without Solomon’s Pools, which were intended to be included in Area C, under full Israeli control. The name “Solomon’s Pools” were marked in the map as being on the Israeli side of the border, but the actual territory
2681:
Sorry, but this is very unconvincing. "Many scholars" written by someone in 1903 refers to a group of people who are dead, so it can't be used to source "many scholars" in the present tense. Also, I don't think "is traditionally" and "was traditionally" have different meanings, since "traditionally"
2540:
If you wish to get to
Solomon’s Pools area from Bethlehem, simply take the service taxi (orange minibus for 7 persons) from Bethlehem’s Central Station, located in the lowest floor of the Bethlehem City Mall, to the direction of Hebron. While driving out from Bethlehem, you are going to pass the St.
1672:
is about OR. I am not saying this is OR. I have never said you require a source for the distance. If you are going to continue ignoring what I actually have said then I dont see how we are supposed to have a discussion. I have said that weight is the issue. That you need to show that the distance to
1258:
David please stop sharing your personal views on the rights of the sons of
Abraham, they are not in any way relevant or conducive to the purpose of this page. Finally, the cited source says the Pools "skirts around the west side of Bethlehem (parallel to today's Hebron Road), not that they are north
2866:
Amitim L’Tiulim, a
Zionist initiative dedicated to connect Israelis to their land through hiking, recently approached US Ambassador David Friedman to help make Solomon’s Pools, near Bethlehem, in the Palestinian Authority, accessible to Israeli citizens. ..... "Unfortunately, the site is located in
1919:
You are completely and totally ignoring my argument. To give any weight to the location of a modern settlement to this site requires reliable sources giving that weight to it. inature.info? Are you serious? Your one reliable source does not actually connect Efrat to the pools, what it actually says
3175:
The article suffers from several deficiencies. One is over-reliance on the HYDRA source, which is not really an academic source. Another is definite statements of things that are only theories. For example, it is not definitely known that the pools originated in the Hashmonean period; it is just a
1237:
Still, the International community is divided over many of these issues, and, besides, the legality of Israel's hold of these territories is not dependent upon International law, nor upon the International community. We can cite their objection, but this does not change the fact on the ground. The
2834:
The US administration recently decided to transfer $ 1.5 million to the Palestinian Authority for the restoration and preservation of Solomon’s Pools north of Bethlehem. ... "It is well known that all of the pools were handed over to the PA in a mistake of mapping,... "To return the pools to our
2663:
traditionally associated with King Solomon, some scholars today believe the pools to be much younger, with the oldest part dating to the 2nd century BCE." I have sent a written correspondence to Israeli archaeologist, Boaz Zissu, about the age of these pools. When his reply comes, I will render a
1784:
I think it is rather funny that people here talked about measuring distances on a map but never thought to check "about 5 kilometres (3.1 mi) southwest of Bethlehem". Actually 5km from this place is enough to get you almost to the most distant edge of the built-up area of Bethlehem. The historic
1197:
We ALWAYS mention modern towns and cities in relation to old sites. There's nothing wrong in doing so, as it gives our readers a sense of direction. Your last "edit summary" clearly shows that your objection to mentioning Israeli towns in relation to Solomon's Pools is because you disagree with
2405:
So a modern settlement which adopted the name of an ancient place that was almost certainly somewhere else gets the benefit of that adoption! Your arguments are getting worse. Actually there is a far better case for identifying ancient Ephrath (when it meant a place rather than a region) with
1954:
Could you specify where exactly that says anything about Efrat in relation to Solomon's Pools? I see it talking about a spring beneath Efrat having an aqueduct created to feed the pools. I dont see where it says anything about the location of Efrat being important. In fact it repeatedly gives
3141:
or maybe an earlier Hasmonean leader, which were Jewish, so they indeed cared for the Second Temple. In fact, Herod expanded the Temple Mount and rebuilt the Temple. You can actually visit the site where the aquaduect reaches the Temple Mount - it was recently opened to tourists visiting the
1855:
None of this is relevant to the subject at hand, but I already overlaid all the maps in Photoshop and I don't know what you are talking about. The inverted V that Btselem shows under construction north of BH and the long section shown under construction to the West have precisely the correct
3091:
Although the archaeological citations in this article appear to be somewhat true, keep in mind the Daily Beast is very anti-Israel, anti-Trump and anti-Bible. Evidence of a 2nd century pool built by the Romans does not equate to no evidence of Solomon's pools or a 2nd Century Roman upgrade.
1654:. Calculations do NOT require a source; we do it all the time on other sites. All you need is a map. If, however, you're asking about the importance of Jewish towns in the so-called West Bank, just look-up some of their names on Knowledge. In any rate, we have a consensus to add Efrat.
2423:- I said "could claim". What is relevant is that the modern Jewish settlement is relevant to current geography - one usually describes present day locations (and this is a present day tourist attraction) in relation to modern landmarks - anyone looking at a map in 2019 would - e.g.
2725:
Translation: "Is there evidence (from an archaeological point of view) that Solomon's pools were indeed built by King Solomon - even some of them or their foundation? - What are the studies that were carried out and what are the methods of dating that were applied in the area, if
905:(Spring of Eiṭam), and which source of water was used by King Solomon to build pools. At least, that is the conventional thought of scholars. Because the pools have yet to be excavated - although its source is well-known - we were cautious with our words and wrote: "The pools are
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George Gate. Some meters later the taxi is going to turn left and there you are going to see the road leading to Artas, where you could get off. Enter the road and start to follow the walk described in the book, which is quite easy and will take you around 2 hours (both ways).
2008:
the contested material about the directional bearing from Efrat. Typically the side favoring inclusion of material bears the burden of justification, and a clear majority in this discussion rejected the inclusion of this detail as lacking sources and encyclopedic relevance.
1707:
Not one editor has addressed the DUE issue. You certainly have not. The location of Israeli settlements, aka colonies, as related to Solomon's Pools are only relevant if reliable sources make them relevant. You have not brought a single reliable source showing that they do.
2177:
Huldra, what does a site's establishment have to do with directional bearings, if I might ask you? Many of the local residents who reside in Efrat are English speakers who perhaps read Knowledge. Wouldn't they want to know where these Pools are located in relation to their
2529:
https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Efrat/Solomon's+Pools,+Bethlehem/@31.7270174,34.9799542,11z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x1502decffed40ac3:0x5fcf186a4abbd39a!2m2!1d35.149934!2d31.653589!1m5!1m1!1s0x1502d9219aef8c59:0x63622d4b214f8144!2m2!1d35.1678801!2d31.6890747!3e0
2375:(Givat Hadagan being a neighborhood) has history dating back, in this name, to the pool construction. Efrat is of obvious geographic relevance - Givat Hadagan being some 300 meters away (aerial distance, 400 meters walking distance). Perhaps even more importantly - it is
1803:
Israelis do visit there (Kfar Etzion Field School). In any event - the separation wall (to the west of the pools, but not to the south) as well as Giv'at Hadagan (which is nominally a neighborhood of Efrat) are relevant geographical features around the pool.
897:, when you say that "the pools are purely Roman work, not from Solomon's time at all," that would depend on what exactly you're talking about with respect to the pools. True, in Roman times they extended an aqueduct from these very pools to Jerusalem (see
1202:), some of whom may have actually sold their parcels of land to Israelis. In any rate, that is a poor excuse. We should only concern ourselves with directional bearings. Jews and Arab Palestinians, Druze and Bedouins, etc., we all share the same country.
834:
Non-extended-confirmed editors may not create new articles, but administrators may exercise discretion when deciding how to enforce this remedy on article creations. Deletion of new articles created by non-extended-confirmed editors is permitted but not
2635:
upheld to this very day. The wording in the lede makes it sound as if the view is no longer applicable, when, in fact, many scholars still think the original foundation of these pools (or perhaps one of them) dates back to King Solomon. Look again at
1888:
2343:- not one reliable source has been brought to show that Efrat or any other Israeli settlement is relevant to this places location. Requests for such sources have been met with responses verging from the sources dont matter to "irrelevant of
1073:
True, but there is also no archaeological evidence that proves that the pools were not originally built by King Solomon. The aueduct is something different. The best that we can do is cite what local tradition says about the place, and that
2602:- our articles are not tourist guides, and I'm tired of seeing these "from a, from b, from c, etc" in articles. There needs to be a clearly encyclopedic reason for including such information; It's even worse if it's not an easy journey.
2289:. Is it not a notable landmark for nearby towns and villages? And, yes, ugly walls exist, which I have always been against, but this does not impede us from mentioning the distances between Hebron and cities on the other side of the
1532:
You are edit-warring and misrepresenting the cited sources. Please stop. Answering my objection on weight with an irrelevant policy on OR (I never said it was OR) does not absolve that. You also lack consensus for your addition per
2523:"possibly remove some other geographical locators as well". This article is not a tour guide or map. If anyone wants to know how to drive to the pools, it's easy to find that info on Google maps. And frankly, as that map confirms,
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essay) - we should stick to a neutral descriptor - in this regards, the Givat HaDagan neighborhood of Efrat (the most northern one along the road) is some 300-400 meters from the easternmost pool and would seem somewhat relevant.
1799:(as well as any aerial/sat photo) - the wall here (while approved) hasn't been constructed (which also means that guessing where it will actually run is, well, a guess - these un-constructed segments tend to move). As evident in
961:, which is called Eitham, very pleasant; it is in fine gardens, and abounding in rivulets of water; thither did he use to go out in the morning, sitting on high ." (END QUOTE). The ancient name of this water source, ʻEiṭam (Heb.
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That is only a new imposition (for their personal safety), but Israel's historical connection with the site is well-known. People generally want to know what historical places are next to them. Israelis can visit with special
1355:
2500:, but remove "near the road to Hebron"--too much localization. For more clarity, add the word "and" between "al-Khader" and "about 3.5 kilometres". Purpose of basic geographic orienting for the reader--nothing wrong with it.
2261:
el-Khader and I'm not sure that has been properly sorted out. Moreover, Israel is busy building a wall that will separate Efrat from the Pools, making their relative positions even more irrelevant. (And, Davidbena, are you
1104:, pp. 105−106: "Whether any part of it goes back to Solomon's time, as is claimed, is more than doubtful. It is the custom in the East to associate any great work with the name "Solomon;" hence we get "Solomon's Pools," "
1375:
disproves the theory of modern revisionists of history (who dare dispute the historicity of King Solomon), as he cites early Phoenician records that were still extant in his day and which prove that there was, indeed, a
2900:), and an article details significant new Archaeological work being done on the Pools under the direction of Matthew J. Adams (Albright Institution of Archaeological Research) and Mark Letteney (Princeton University).
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1673:
a settlement is something that sources consider noteworthy to include it here. If you would like to respond to that great. But arguing against positions I have never taken is not exactly going to help anything here.
1078:
important, without any doubt in my mind. The pools are renowned because of King Solomon. Israeli archaeologists have identified the nearby ruin as being Eitam, where Solomon frequently visited, according to Jewish
544:
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Based on what? If you want something in an encyclopedia article you need to show that it is given weight by reliable sources. That is literally one of the most basic requirements for content on this website.
2874:
Amitim L’Tiulim invited Ambassador Friedman to tour the site, in order to understand its historic and cultural value, as well as see first hand the damage caused by its neglect by the Palestinian Authority.
3252:
I can't make the edit, but there's a sentence in there that's repeated but also doesn't fit with the sentences around it, like it's just been randomly inserted. As it is, that paragraph now makes no sense.
1426:). As for Solomon: Josephus lived about a 1000 years after Solomon is alleged to have lived: hardly an eyewitness to him. As for me to "dare dispute the historicity of King Solomon"; yeah, well: I do dare.
2768:
The three Solomon’s Pools near Bethlehem in the West Bank were built by Herod the Great around 2,000 years ago and were key sources of water for the Second Temple and the city, according to archaeologists.
1896:- it would seem that one of the two water sources feeding the pools is near the parking lot in Givat Hadagan - there's a tunnel cutting through the ridge and then an aquaduct running down to the pool.
2572:
https://www.google.com/search?q=Pools+of+Solomon+in+Wady+Urtas&rlz=1C1RUCY_enCA781CA781&oq=Pools+of+Solomon+in+Wady+Urtas&aqs=chrome..69i57.1061j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
1468:@Huldra A locality can be a settlement without being a town. They are not mutually exclusive, that we shouldn't be able to say one over the other. They mean different things. Rfc? What for?
1392:. In fact, no one doubts that there was a First Temple on the Temple Mount and which had been built by King Solomon. As for the removal of the directional bearing of Solomon's Pools from
941:. True, the writer is not an archaeologist, but he or she is basing his/her words on a conventional view that exists, and which theory has its foundation in the writings of the historian
2257:
as no source has been brought indicating a relevance. Compared to this, almost every source uses Bethlehem and/or el Khader to mark the position. Actually many sources say the Pools are
2307:
I think it would be acceptable, somewhere later in the article, to write that the separation wall is under construction west and south of the Pools and that Efrat is on the other side.
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843:
Clear vandalism of whatever origin may be reverted without restriction. Also, reverts made solely to enforce the extended confirmed restriction are not considered edit warring.
2721:האם יש סימוכין (מבחינה ארכיאולוגית) שבריכות שלמה אכן נבנו ע"י שלמה המלך - אפילו חלקן או התשתית שבהן? מה הם המחקרים שנעשו בנידון ומה הן שיטות התִּאֲרוּךְ שיושמו במקום, אם בכלל
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gradual, going back to the 2nd century BC while certain waterworks took place during the time of Herod the Great (37-4 BC)." And later, "The dating of the Arrub aqueduct is
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wrote with "the truth". Remember: he was also a participant in (some of) the actions he describes, and some of his writings have been disproven by archeology. (eg, see the
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is something else that what is presumed by "Israeli town". By "Israeli town" we mean towns in Israel, pre 1967. Please start a RfC, if you want to use "Israeli town" for
951:(8.7.3), the following account: "King Solomon rode upon a chariot... and used to take his progress out of the city in the morning. There was a certain place, about fifty
2786:
What is surprising about the lede is the failure to mention that the site is controlled by Palestine not Israel. In fact, does the article ever mention that, anywhere?
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1396:, that was uncalled for. It matters little that Efrat happens to be a settlement, as it is a well-populated city with a population of nearly 10,000, nearly on par with
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in the 5th-century CE often make mention of this site, with respect to the aqueduct that was built there and which once extended as far as the Temple in Jerusalem:
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The original uploader explained the problem and I corrected the image. So I'll put it back. You might need to clear your browser cache to see the new version.
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as a directional bearing. Currently there are four editors who want the inclusion of directional bearings from Efrat to Solomon's Pools (namely, myself, and
1093:"no archaeological evidence that proves that the pools were not originally built by King Solomon", ok, there is "no archaeological evidence that proves that"
1634:
sources then sure we can discuss adding it. But until now you have not, you have simply edit-warred, and originally edit-warred over blatant misinformation.
1585:. Both cities provide information to our readers as to their relative distances from the pools. Inserting distances, in my view, falls under the category of
1404:
requires of us to summarize in the lede paragraph the main points discussed in the article. This has yet to be done with your removal of vital information.
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2691:
I can accept your skepticism. That is why I also posed the question to a modern archaeologist, from our day and age. We'll wait and see what he has to say.
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same here. The site traditionally is associated with Solomon. What archeologists find is what they find, but the pools are still associated with Solomon.
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1557:. Would you agree to its use as directional bearings, even though its a smaller town than Efrat? Meanwhile, it seems that we have a consensus to include
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orientations and are within about 50 meters of their correct positions. The shadows visible at govmap show that construction is at least well advanced.
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1297:(whose description doesn't seem to even mention Bethlehem) is far from a great source. If we are using a map as a source (which is possible - see the
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We often use maps as sources - and any reasonable map has Givat Hadagan here. Unsurprisingly some sources connect between Efrat and the pools - e.g.
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We all agree that these pools are ancient, but why do we need to mention modern settlements from the 1980s or 1990s, (settlements that had exactly
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I agree with the change from "was" to "is" as proposed by Davidbena and for his reasons. Zero's linguistics is wrong. 12:14, 30 April 2019 (UTC)
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https://www.jewishpress.com/news/us-news/zionist-group-asking-ambassador-friedman-to-help-make-solomons-pools-accessible-to-israelis/2019/01/12/
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3373:. It is dirt easy to put it into the scanner the wrong way around because the front and back are indistinguishable except for some printing.
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of the Dam Wall support this dating, and suggest a more precise dating to the 2nd century CE. Details will be provided in the next report."
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shows that most of what appears as under construction on Btselem's map (dashed red) is actually built, since its shadow is clearly visible.
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who agreed that a settlement can also be a town (debunking Huldra's objection on those grounds). There are so far only two editors (you and
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an area under Palestinian control, which is why access to it is not free, as required from tourist, archaeology and tradition sites."
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that map was updated but that part of the wall is either complete or nearing completion. In fact, the high-res image at govmap.gov.il
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The history presently place more importance on the mythical Solomon, than the very real archeological evidence connecting it to
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is the reason. Please show that reliable sources treat its location as near Efrat or any other settlement as meriting mention.
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Appeal to US ambassador to Israel: Condition US aid for restoration at Solomon's Pools on permanent Jewish access to the site.
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established in 1983 has exactly ZERO to do with these pools. (And you need at least a RFC to name them anything other than
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1693:. The Jewish towns are just as important as Arab towns. All of us are entitled to knowing the distances between our cities.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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archeologiacal evidence that this is in any way related to King Solomon, so he and his charity has to go out of the lead.
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2387:). To sum up - this is obviously geographically relevant (being 300m south of the pools) and is part of the water system.
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3119:. And I doubt Roman soldiers cared much for the Second Temple; it was suppying Jerusalem, as a whole, they cared about,
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it's irrelevant of it has nothing to do with the pool, it is showing where it is now relative to towns in today's map.
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article are correct, then the "Background" section needs to be completely re-written. It was apparently the work of
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If you are unsure if your edit is appropriate, discuss it here on this talk page first. When in doubt, don't revert!
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to do with the constructions of the pools!) ...in connections with the pools? It makes absolutely no sense to me,
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Brilliant! Shows it's always worth asking the uploader. I skipped that step as they hadn't edited in a while.
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hands is a goal, but in the meantime we have to act in order to make the site accessible to the Jews as well,"
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Editors who violate this restriction may be blocked by any uninvolved administrator, even on a first offence.
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44b. By the way, this place is not to be confused with the "Rock of Eitam," a different place described by
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may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the
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1581:) who do not want its inclusion. The size of the Jewish city Efrat is roughly equivalent to the size of
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Someone messed with at least the beginning of this section at some point, writing does not make sense.
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Yeah, the journal article has less info than the newspaper (nothing there about the similarities with
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It would be useful to include an account of the new research and the ongoing project in the article.
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is Efrat's northern end borders al-Hader, which is near Solomon's Pools and the Dheisha refugee camp.
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This is simply not acceptable in the lead. Yes, we can have further down as a tradition, but there is
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I was suspicious about how it could get reversed, but the uploader explained that the original is a
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https://www.thedailybeast.com/jerusalems-controversial-pools-of-solomons-secrets-have-been-unlocked
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1223:"Israeli towns" when it comes to the International community, and I think you know that very well,
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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Please provide reliable secondary sources noting any closeness to Efrat or any other settlement.
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768:, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article:
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2789:"It is well known that all of the pools were handed over to the PA in a mistake of mapping,...
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There is an Israeli town that is closer to Solomon's Pools than Efrat. The name of the town is
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wasn't built by King Solomon either....that doesn't make us write that they were built by him!!
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theory. The path of the aqueducts as they approached Jerusalem is only partially understood.
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procedure can be used against any editor who repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the
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has nothing to do with the pools - having been founded as a town in the middle ages, while
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2379:- one of the main water sources for the pools is in Efrat, and runs in a long aqueduct /
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933:." And then there is the writer of another article, written in Bethlehem in 2014 (see
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Solomon's Pools appeared on the cover of the Palestine Exploration Quarterly 2019.1 (
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A question came to the fore whether or not we should add the directional bearings of
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2647:. It is estimated having been built during the Pontius Pilate time (26-36 AD)," See
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agree, look at a map, it's literally a somes throw from Efrat, no reason to exclude.
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https://vicbethlehem.wordpress.com/2012/11/05/the-murad-castle-the-solomons-pools/
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https://www.timesofisrael.com/temple-era-pools-near-jerusalem-set-for-renovation/
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The history part is totally dated; does anyone know the template for "dated"?
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They are relevant only if reliable sources show them to be relevant. Do they?
1317:@Huldra No, a town can be a settlement. These two do not preclude each other.
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related to articles within the topic area, provided they are not disruptive.
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If you don't get a good reply here, consider trying the reference desk.
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An article has been published in the Daily Beast on this ongoing work.
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telling us that the settlers of Efrat don't know where Bethlehem is?)
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describing the Efrat well and the 2.8 km aqueduct to Solomon's pools.
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You are incorrect in regards to the separation wall - as of yet - per
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to the pool (this water work being a tourist site in its own right) (
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Israeli settlement of lands formerly owned by Arab Palestinians (See
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I frankly think the line of argumentation on ancient settlements is
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translation into English and share it with interested parties here.
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Basic Law proposal: Israel as the Nation-State of the Jewish People
3002:- reliable sources, so yes, it belongs. I'm trying to get a copy.
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https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00310328.2019.1579454
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borders of ancient Israel overlap those of Galilee and the modern
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procedure applies to this article. This article is related to the
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has absolutely nothing historically to do with the pools (unlike
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Biblical Encyclopaedia - Encyclopedia of the Bible and its Period
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2367:- quite obviously. In regards to claims above - one could claim
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About the latter; the latest Finkelstein theory is interesting:
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3158:, which took place several decades after the pools were built.
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Nice journal article. The news article is a bit silly though.
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Knowledge:Using maps and similar sources in Knowledge articles
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etc). I guess we will have to wait until "the next report",
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and possibly remove some other geographical locators as well
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1890:. This is also relevant in tour-guide information - e.g. per
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973:, a ruin that is adjacent to Solomon's Pools. For this, see:
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Non-extended-confirmed editors may use the "Talk:" namespace
2067:) are three ancient reservoirs located in the south-central
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I don't have access to the article, but if the comments by
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Currently, the lede paragraph reads: "...Although the site
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Again, you're misrepesenting Knowledge's policy concerning
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Editors may report violations of these restrictions to the
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Four editors disagree with you. It has nothing to do with
1400:. There is already a consensus here to keep it. Moreover,
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The exceptions to the extended confirmed restriction are:
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Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the
1565:(who mentioned a northern suburb of Efrat by the name of
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That is incorrect when it comes to directional bearings.
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http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/257110
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http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/257110
2196:, under full Palestinian control, ie not a place where
913:, having been built by him and which are alluded to in
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to edit or discuss this topic on any page (except for
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which seems to have been taken about the same time.
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.
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Timeline of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict in 2005
304:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
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161:
82:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
3023:I can send you a copy too if you send me wikimail.
2137:was constructed in 1983...long after the pools. Pr
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Many of Masterman's claims have long been debunked.
555:Articles needing translation from Hebrew Knowledge
116:This article has not yet received a rating on the
2857:Another article on this topic (12 January 2019):
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1955:Bethlehem as the relevant marker for the pools.
1902:Amat haBiar feeding Solomon's pools - near Efrat
1380:. You may wish to see page 108 in this treatise
2293:, although a wall or fence exists between them.
1510:Directional bearings do not depend so much on
3000:Albright Institute of Archaeological Research
2898:https://www.pef.org.uk/quarterly/peq-151-2019
2410:reliable sources for geography or hydrology.
2000:A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
2406:Bethlehem. By the way, tourism articles are
642:Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim countries
3229:can you help with this? See your edit here.
2871:was included in the area under PA control.
2818:Restoration project - Palestinian Authority
2075:, about 5 kilometres (3.1 mi) southwest of
1332:@Debresser, you know as well as I do, that
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1100:See what dr Masterman wrote back in 1902:
572:Israel articles missing geocoordinate data
456:WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration
417:Unknown-importance Israel-related articles
397:Here are some tasks awaiting attention:
3416:Mid-importance Palestine-related articles
1120:made a "current of water" to Jerusalem,"
657:Knowledge requested photographs in Israel
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1897:
1418:You do a great mistake by equating what
839:With respect to the WP:1RR restriction:
3406:Unknown-importance Archaeology articles
3094:2600:1700:C360:1530:2506:8921:372D:32F4
2538:is the community closest to the pools:
3431:Low-importance Israel-related articles
3411:Start-Class Palestine-related articles
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3278:The current lead image - taken in 1981
2759:This is the history, according to the
2682:by itself carries a past connotation.
2566:P.S. In fact, many sources say this:
2525:it's not easy to get there from Efrat
2454:, since "immediately to the south of
2004:The result of this discussion was to
199:, where you can add your name to the
2826:Demand: Open Solomon's Pools to Jews
2659:(past-tense): "...Although the site
2570:, between Hebron and Bethlehem. See
2527:... much easier from Bethlehem. See
1991:The following discussion is closed.
1589:, and does not require a reference,
757:Warning: active arbitration remedies
745:
298:This article is within the scope of
177:This article is within the scope of
76:This article is within the scope of
15:
3426:Start-Class Israel-related articles
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1823:(don't know if this link will work)
782:, provided they are not disruptive)
486:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Israel
38:It is of interest to the following
13:
3333:For a simple proof, compare it to
627:Knowledge requested maps in Israel
411:Unassessed Israel-related articles
195:on Knowledge. Join us by visiting
14:
3447:
2281:Bethlehem is not the issue here,
606:Israel articles needing attention
589:Israel articles needing infoboxes
96:Knowledge:WikiProject Archaeology
3401:Start-Class Archaeology articles
2822:This is an interesting article:
2617:The discussion above is closed.
749:
432:Cleanup listing for this project
388:
285:
275:
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203:where you can contribute to the
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99:Template:WikiProject Archaeology
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2892:New Research on Solomon's Pools
622:Module:Location map/data/Israel
338:This article has been rated as
233:This article has been rated as
213:Knowledge:WikiProject Palestine
3421:WikiProject Palestine articles
2568:Pools of Solomon in Wady Urtas
2071:, immediately to the south of
1014:
569:Add geographic coordinates to
483:Participate in discussions at
216:Template:WikiProject Palestine
1:
3263:03:14, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
3242:17:10, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
3221:16:25, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
3154:only in the aftermath of the
3102:16:12, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
2922:17:28, 31 December 2019 (UTC)
2203:are allowed to visit, AFAIK,
2051:, Solomon's Pools, or simply
1390:Josephus' Portrait of Solomon
805:contentious topics procedures
312:and see a list of open tasks.
90:and see a list of open tasks.
2626:Correction in lede paragraph
2316:Yes, that is also an option.
909:to date back to the time of
654:Add pictures to articles in
318:Knowledge:WikiProject Israel
7:
3436:WikiProject Israel articles
541:Trial of Benjamin Netanyahu
321:Template:WikiProject Israel
10:
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774:You must be logged-in and
624:. Add maps to articles in
505:Diamond industry in Israel
344:project's importance scale
239:project's importance scale
219:Palestine-related articles
118:project's importance scale
3269:File:Solomon's pools2.jpg
3189:is never up to any good.
3168:20:51, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
3129:20:28, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
2019:22:43, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
1285:In regards to removal of
945:, where he writes in his
807:before editing this page.
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3283:anyone able to confirm?
3108:Dated (Template needed!)
2887:15:02, 14 May 2019 (UTC)
2850:14:32, 14 May 2019 (UTC)
2813:14:04, 15 May 2019 (UTC)
2779:14:26, 14 May 2019 (UTC)
2619:Please do not modify it.
2612:14:39, 15 May 2019 (UTC)
2583:14:14, 15 May 2019 (UTC)
2555:14:21, 14 May 2019 (UTC)
2452:remove Bethlehem as well
1994:Please do not modify it.
1174:"Near Modern settlement"
939:Suleiman the Magnificent
864:normal editorial process
801:normal editorial process
564:Geographical coordinates
3077:21:32, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
3059:07:42, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
3028:22:28, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
3012:13:40, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
2983:21:58, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
2957:04:39, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
2946:19:17, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
2795:Your thoughts on this @
2377:hydrologically relevant
2192:Solomon's Pools are in
948:Antiquities of the Jews
870:Arbitration enforcement
533:Public Defence (Israel)
434:is available. See also
324:Israel-related articles
79:WikiProject Archaeology
3279:
3156:First Roman-Jewish War
2598:and I also agree with
2110:here: Statement by DGG
1903:
860:standards of behaviour
797:standards of behaviour
28:This article is rated
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2421:completely irrelevant
1901:
766:Arab–Israeli conflict
355:Project Israel To Do:
180:WikiProject Palestine
3206:Solomon's_Pools#Name
2712:For those interested
856:purpose of Knowledge
850:After being warned,
793:purpose of Knowledge
780:making edit requests
440:the tool's wiki page
436:the list by category
102:Archaeology articles
3150:assumed control of
3144:Western Wall Tunnel
2716:Bar Ilan University
2637:Leeper, J.L. (1903)
2477:( near the road to
2458:" is clear enough.
2079:, near the road to
1983:Request for Comment
1514:as they do more on
1217:Israeli settlements
814:Further information
704:Translate to Hebrew
3371:photographic slide
3300:Gråbergs Gråa Sång
3280:
3213:Gråbergs Gråa Sång
3191:Gråbergs Gråa Sång
2153:, and the road to
2131:Israeli settlement
1904:
1617:Israeli settlement
1613:Israeli settlement
1338:Israeli settlement
1334:Israeli settlement
1148:But not this one,
1106:Solomon's Quarries
852:contentious topics
830:
828:make edit requests
776:extended-confirmed
762:contentious topics
758:
620:See discussion at
301:WikiProject Israel
193:State of Palestine
189:Palestinian people
34:content assessment
3019:Check your mail.
2967:thedailybeast.com
2948:
2936:comment added by
2924:
2912:comment added by
2519:and I agree with
2361:
2108:, per discussion
1968:
1933:
1884:
1752:
1721:
1686:
1647:
1550:
1507:
1460:
1272:
1110:Solomon's Stables
983:Babylonian Talmud
884:
883:
880:
879:
825:
756:
744:
743:
740:
739:
736:
735:
732:
731:
728:
727:
586:Add infoboxes to
549:Pre-Modern Aliyah
521:Sephardic Haredim
249:
248:
245:
244:
128:
127:
124:
123:
3443:
3322:
3236:
3148:Legio VI Ferrata
3117:Legio VI Ferrata
3053:
3006:
2996:Matthew J. Adams
2971:Legio VI Ferrata
2931:
2907:
2606:
2354:
2349:
2198:Israeli settlers
2062:
2046:
1996:
1961:
1956:
1926:
1921:
1877:
1872:
1840:
1745:
1740:
1714:
1709:
1679:
1674:
1640:
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1543:
1538:
1500:
1495:
1453:
1448:
1386:Louis H. Feldman
1265:
1260:
1032:
1018:
979:Bialik Institute
971:Khirbet al-Khuaḥ
967:I Chronicles 4:3
810:
809:
753:
746:
537:Prisoner of Zion
478:Deletion sorting
392:
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326:
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3139:Herod the Great
3110:
3051:
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2894:
2876:
2872:
2868:
2820:
2793:
2761:Times of Israel
2628:
2623:
2622:
2604:
2450:and absolutely
2385:reliable source
2352:
2287:Solomon's Pools
2083:, and north of
2065:Breichot Shlomo
2037:Solomon's Pools
2026:
1992:
1985:
1959:
1924:
1875:
1834:
1801:this YNET piece
1743:
1712:
1677:
1638:
1571:User:Sir Joseph
1541:
1498:
1451:
1424:Siege of Masada
1263:
1176:
1037:
1036:
1035:
1019:
1015:
892:
890:Solomon's Pools
876:
858:, any expected
815:
795:, any expected
788:
724:
709:David Bar-Hayim
517:Rami Kleinstein
501:Ayala Procaccia
453:Participate in
383:
323:
320:
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314:
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291:
286:
284:
264:
218:
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212:
209:
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201:list of members
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32:on Knowledge's
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3357:Richard Nevell
3331:
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3311:
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3285:Richard Nevell
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3255:CamphorNoodles
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2879:Peter K Burian
2873:
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2842:Peter K Burian
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2771:Peter K Burian
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340:Low-importance
336:
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310:the discussion
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265:Low‑importance
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235:Mid-importance
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144:Mid‑importance
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3248:"Present Day"
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2655:, instead of
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2600:User:Pincrete
2597:
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2255:Don't include
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2055:, the pools;
2054:
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2042:
2038:
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2020:
2016:
2012:
2007:
2003:
2002:
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1567:Givat HaDagan
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1003:Victor Guérin
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2963:Candida Moss
2932:— Preceding
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3227:User:Tombah
3152:Roman Judea
3052:Doug Weller
3021:Doug Weller
3005:Doug Weller
2645:not certain
2605:Doug Weller
2425:google maps
2127:Not Include
2061:בריכות שלמה
2006:not include
1579:User:Huldra
1555:Neve Daniel
1388:, entitled
1384:written by
1026:Antiquities
903:ʻAin ʻEiṭam
895:User:Huldra
448:Collaborate
205:discussions
93:Archaeology
84:Archaeology
59:Archaeology
30:Start-class
3395:Categories
3335:this image
2746:Sir Joseph
2291:Green line
2247:Sir Joseph
2045:برك سليمان
1484:Sir Joseph
1371:Actually,
1095:Stonehenge
1079:tradition.
1009:References
997:145b, and
717:Guy Oseary
509:Edna Arbel
2797:Davidbena
2728:Davidbena
2693:Davidbena
2666:Davidbena
2460:Debresser
2456:al-Khader
2369:al-Khader
2318:Davidbena
2295:Davidbena
2220:Davidbena
2180:Davidbena
2151:Bethlehem
2147:al-Khader
2114:Davidbena
2092:Davidbena
2077:Bethlehem
2073:al-Khader
2069:West Bank
1726:Davidbena
1695:Davidbena
1691:WP:WEIGHT
1656:Davidbena
1599:Davidbena
1583:al-Khader
1520:Davidbena
1512:WP:WEIGHT
1492:WP:WEIGHT
1470:Debresser
1406:Davidbena
1398:al-Khader
1319:Debresser
1244:Davidbena
1240:West Bank
1204:Davidbena
1136:Davidbena
1081:Davidbena
1040:Davidbena
959:Jerusalem
862:, or any
835:required.
799:, or any
713:Guy Bavli
552:See also
408:Rate the
210:Palestine
185:Palestine
141:Palestine
2998:and the
2934:unsigned
2910:unsigned
2641:probably
2521:Pincrete
2485:Pincrete
2353:nableezy
2218:permits.
2139:WP:UNDUE
2053:el-Burak
1960:nableezy
1936:Here is
1925:nableezy
1876:nableezy
1837:Zero0000
1744:nableezy
1713:nableezy
1678:nableezy
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1420:Josephus
1402:MOS:LEAD
1373:Josephus
1295:mapcarta
1264:nableezy
1114:Josephus
1021:Josephus
999:Bekhorot
943:Josephus
919:Josephus
826:only to
598:Maintain
465:Copyedit
191:and the
2965:in the
2498:Include
2429:Icewhiz
2389:Icewhiz
2365:Include
2243:include
2106:Include
1942:Icewhiz
1907:Icewhiz
1843:Icewhiz
1806:Icewhiz
1670:WP:CALC
1668:David,
1652:WP:CALC
1587:WP:CALC
1569:), and
1535:WP:ONUS
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1180:nothing
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991:Zevahim
907:thought
581:Infobox
426:Cleanup
369:history
342:on the
237:on the
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3121:Huldra
3069:Huldra
3017:Huldra
2975:Huldra
2801:Huldra
2534:Also,
2479:Hebron
2264:really
2205:Huldra
2201:by law
2194:Area A
2159:Huldra
2155:Hebron
2081:Hebron
2057:Hebrew
2041:Arabic
2011:RL0919
1621:Huldra
1591:per se
1573:, and
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1359:Huldra
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1225:Huldra
1184:Huldra
1150:Huldra
1122:Huldra
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1030:8.7.3.
954:stadia
715:, and
683:Update
495:Expand
403:Assess
315:Israel
306:Israel
262:Israel
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3187:HYDRA
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2799:and @
2726:any?"
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2345:(sic)
2178:town?
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1559:Efrat
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989:31a,
927:Artas
695:Other
666:Stubs
649:Photo
379:purge
374:watch
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3361:talk
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