Knowledge

talk:Talk page layout - Knowledge

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sought to upscale or return the template's importance. Each WikiProject would feel that they wish to draw readers' attention to their project - the question here is why is this WikiProject regarded as more special than all the others that their endeavours get singled out? I'm wondering if a general discussion on the importance and value of the Vital articles project is appropriate for this venue, and if the discussion should be at
1142:) and the template should go with other WikiProject templates. The decision as to which articles are listed as vital is done by consensus of those participating in the project. As such it has no more significance than any WikiProject deciding that a topic is important or not. We shouldn't be misleading readers into thinking there is any kind of authority in the decision to list certain articles as vital and not others. 579: 2413:, high importance articles. It needs some way to identify those articles that isn't just pageviews (which are skewed by both recentism and systemic bias). That's the niche that Vital Articles fills. On vetting, the example you gave is for level-5, which is still under construction and indeed is not subject to significant scrutiny. But the higher levels do receive substantial scrutiny. 1496:, thanks for your comment. In the grouping above, I tried to retain some semblance of the original order on the project page, despite my own preferences. If I understand your objection from your sandbox, it's because it's a small, right-aligned box, and if that's the case, then I would agree with you. But two points here: there is no reason to use the 1223:
kept, and would like them to be displayed. Perhaps we have got to the point where all talkpage templates should be reviewed to see if there is consensus to continue using them (though I suspect the default on that would be to keep all). An example of what I feel is a misplaced talkpage template is stuff like
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to abolish the project at VPR in 2020 which got snow-closed. But I do think it might be time to revisit it there, since some sort of reform is needed. The reason I stopped participating is that, sorta opposite SandyGeorgia's concerns, in my experience the project became consumed by debates over which
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If I'm understanding you right, I think the presence of a small notification that "this is a vital topic" would be better placed on the article itself (like it is for featured articles and good articles). I agree that the consensus-building process for which articles are "vital" is very flawed at the
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inside the banner shell. Without knowing about this discussion, earlier today, I filed a bug report to get it to stop doing that. I'll keep an eye on this discussion and amend my bug report if needed. Whatever is decided here, I think it's important that this page (WP:TALKORDER) contain the canonical
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I like what you are doing as regards sorting out talkpage templates, and I like your idea of grouping templates by theme. Ideally what we need to do is reduce some of the clutter that appears on talkpages. However, people who create and use some of these templates would understandably like them to be
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is a misnomer; it's not the article that is vital, but the topic.) Hence, the grouping of the two, and the separation from WikiProjects, which seems to me more to do with collaboration and management within a subject area. You could, I suppose, say that WikiProjects are there to "improve the quality"
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directly above. The wording you quote: "However, this is not an absolute rule, and editors should use common sense when deciding its placement", comes after " By convention, this template goes at the very top of the talk page, above WikiProject templates and other talk-page banners", and is referring
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To your point of "where they should go" I think the point of the Rfc (which I opposed, so I hope I'm fairly stating this) is that after conversion to "regular page sections" they would eventually get archived according to the archiving config on each page where they appeared; whereas as a template,
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of vital articles is useful overall. I also agree that talk pages are often far too cluttered with banners (BTW, when are we going to make them mobile-friendly?). I'd support putting it in WPBannerShell and adding collapsibility; and also support adding a topicon on the article talk page. Most these
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It seems you're pursuing an impossible standard — there is no WikiProject that actively monitors with oversight everything within its scope. That said, I agree that level-5 has issues and was a questionable creation in the first place — I would very much consider a proposal to display only level-4+.
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Elevating Vital to the level of FA ?? That is exactly the opposite of the direction I advocate. It has even less scrutiny than GA, which is a one-person review; I don't know why we feature one-person anything in mainspace. The Vital Project acts with no more scrutiny or authority than any group of
1515:. (If it were up to me, I'd force that template to default to wide/thin, but that's a different topic.) As far as the fat/squat Archives box in your sandbox example, I'm opposed to that one, too, especially since it no longer has any function on pages that contain a Talk header. The main issue with 1506:
template as a "small" template: it makes an ugly, fat squat box that takes up a lot of vertical space and pushes the page content down; it's much better to use the wide, horizontal version. Furthermore, they should be collapsed just like WikiProjects and some other banners. For examples, please see:
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Note that this gives five sections about the article and four about the Talk page. These are tagged '(A)' and '(T)', suggesting a further possible axis of abstraction. That's nine total sections, and somewhere I read that seven is the magic number for what most humans can hold in memory, so I'd love
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Looking at the current layout, 16 items is a lot to take in at once, and the mind looks for order and it's hard to find. Trying to take a 40,000-foot view, it seems to me like there were some commonalities there, that I couldn't quite see with the current ordering. I attempted to analyze the list to
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I don't see Vital as being essentially any different to a standard WikiProject banner in regards to giving a topic "importance", so it could sit inside {{WPB}}, where it is sometimes found, though I have also found it inside BannerHolder. Be interesting to see the thinking behind why folks feel it
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be put on the article page, I think I just misunderstood the comment you were making as saying something should be reader-facing not editor-facing and was trying to understand that. If anything I was trying to emphasise that the lower levels don't provide anything useful to the readers. That's my
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Given all this, I think what we should be discussing is where to move the condensed version of the information. To throw out some ideas, turning it into a topicon (an image at upper right near any protection icon, probably consisting of the level number superimposed on the VA logo), putting it in
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I agree that the fewer templates on the talkpage the better, and if several templates can be merged into one, that would be better than organising them into groups that would still appear as a distracting cluster on the talkpage. If templates can be identified which could be merged, then a merge
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I have no objection to further talk, and drawing in more people. However, the current consensus is in favour of downscaling the importance of the Vital articles template in order to reduce talkpage clutter, therefore, until consensus is changed, the template is downscaled. Consensus must now be
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tag, they're alerted to the fact that Musa is a very important historical figure, and that the article on him ought to be prioritized for improvement beyond its current C-class status. This is also what differentiates the vital article designations from the information in project banners, which
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It's fine to consolidate the advice on this page into fewer groupings based on the responses above but I think the most impactful action would be to reduce the number of discrete "attention" templates into one that will actually be read and heeded. Having the relevant "attention" templates put
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should take precedence over other WikiProjects, and be placed alone in a prominent location. It may be useful to readers to provide some information in the template - something like "Some Knowledge editors feel this topic/article ranks as Level 3 on Knowledge's Vital articles importance scale".
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it suggests another kind of possible grouping, namely, the level of consensus or authority: we have banners with everything from Arbcom D/s notices and BLP notices, to policy/guideline-based, to purely informational, and they all have the same look-and-feel. I wonder if different shades of the
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Yes, that would be fine. Given the functionality that is being added to the template, I can see that it would eventually end up on most talkpages, though historically we have encountered problems with people blindly adding templates en-masse, so a notice saying that doing such a thing would be
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to where on the talkpage it should be placed, not that it "should only be used where it is needed", ie, that it should only be placed on talkpages in certain circumstances. The RfC concluded that it could be placed on any talkpage, but that nobody should now go round mass placing the template.
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adds them near the top, i.e., right under the end of the header template section where they used to be, but I could be wrong. To the extent that the whole goal is to get them off the page, I don't know if the location on the page even matters that much, but others may disagree.
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YES. Let's solve one of the (many) problems with talk page clutter. The idea of 17 different things at talk before you get to talk is beyond absurd, as is the placement of one less-than-even-a-WikiProject (Vital articles) above so many other items or more relevance.
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Agree that it's not helpful that {{Vital article}} currently appears above even contentious topic warning. Even if not collapsed into general project banner, it should at least go down right above projects. But not almost at the very top of banners.
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was not notified of it. They deserve to have the opportunity to comment on a proposal that would significantly affect them, and the wider community deserves the chance to weigh in as well given the large-scale impact on talk pages. Also, there was
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Is there any advice anywhere concerning the use of multiple banners for the same project on the same talk page? WikiProject Women in Red places a new banner for every editathon that they organise and these are starting to build up on pages like
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SandyGeorgia, from your comments, I gather that have a dim view of the Vital Articles endeavor overall. I agree that the project has some significant issues, but I don't think it's useless. Knowledge overall struggles to direct attention to
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overrules this. Therefore, I'm going to send out invites and keep the status quo until the invited folks have had a chance to comment. Sorry to delay the resolution, but it'll be worthwhile to achieve something that sticks as a non-local
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which is intended to enclose banners that are not WikiProject banners, but it doesn't cause the enclosed banners to reduce to a single line - they are either fully visible or entirely hidden, unless they are self-collapsing, as with
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moment. There's just too many articles at levels 4 and 5 for a high level of scrutiny on all of them, so imo something like this should be restricted to levels 1 to 3 (if it was done, which would require its own separate consensus).
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that the Vital tags should be placed with WikiProjects. The Vital designation is no more than a WikiProject finding and we should not be cluttering the talk page unnecessarily with similar tags that can be added to a WP banner.
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That's it; this has even less significance than one-person reviewer processes-- these designations can be added by anyone and are subject to no independent scrutiny. William Utermohlen is still listed as a vital article.
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articles to raise/lower to which level, which were already make-work tasks and became even moreso as participants failed to agree on precisely what constituted vitality and therefore went in circles. Since then, I know
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I'm seeing the germ of a topic worthy of a separate discussion here, namely, the issue of the fugly boxes. I'm mulling over starting one, as it seems like a sub-topic of the ongoing discussions about TP banner clutter.
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Ah, thanks. So is there now a ruling which needs to be made about whether such sections go in a particular place (like just under the header templates) or get mixed in with general conversations? There's no mention at
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So do vital article designations have utility to talk page viewers? I would say yes, since they can serve as signals to help direct attention. For instance, let's say an editor is gnoming and comes to an article like
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Moving on to the substance of the discussion, I think we need to zoom out a bit. The operating questions here are: What information will be helpful to talk page visitors, and how do we best concisely communicate
3032:, I would've definitely included these, however they are no longer header templates since an Rfc decided to convert them all to individual talk sections instead, and Primebot has been doing the conversions. 2421:
and its talk page. Not knowing much about West African history, they haven't heard of Musa, don't bother to read the lead section, and aren't inclined to stick around very long. But on seeing the level-3
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I agree with SilkTork and SandyGeorgia that the vital articles project shouldn't be treated any differently from any other project. It should have (at most) a wikiproject box on the talk page.
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Given that, I think this is separate to the talk page issue. I agree with above that the vital article template used on talk pages should be part of the condensed wikiproject grouping.
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of articles within their purview, but then again, so is the entire project and everything we do here, so that seems kind of meaningless. Anyway, that's why I tried grouping those two.
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doesn't belong in a "quality" grouping, but rather in a "local consensus" grouping. I'm trying to think if there are other TP banner templates like that, or if this is a unique case.
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should be fixed. But in practice, me and other editors just throw this temporary tmbox at the very bottom, just like how XFDcloser incorrectly puts 9. Article history above 4.
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advice; after that, whether they are placed near the top or near the bottom is less of an issue afaic. But if I could eliminate those fat, ugly banners in a stroke, I would.
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vital, despite scrutiny concerns; and most of them are severely neglected, so a topicon would be much appreciated to raise attention in a minimal and unobtrusive way.
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see if imposing an additional level of abstraction above the current list of sixteen might reduce the seeming arbitrariness of the list. Here is what I came up with:
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discuss. This page has attracted too much drama in the past to have two prolific editors engage in a slow-burning edit war on a minor instruction on template usage.
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Regarding the "special treatment" argument you and SandyGeorgia are making, most project importance ratings are very narrowly scoped: they're the importance
3020: 391:, that was my read on the RFC and believe that the current reading on this Info page does not reflect that. Maybe there is a middle ground where we state 2674:
Even they acknowledge it is a WikiProject (so why aren't we adding it to talk pages like any other), and they don't monitor Level 5 as they say they do.
1353:, which is an oddity, as I doubt anyone would consider that a vital article. Indeed, some might consider that article has no notability. It was added by 2358:
We have a consensus of five in favour of downscaling Vital article and one against in this rather slow moving discussion. I shall update the guideline.
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There's been no opposition to that suggestion, and we now have at least three in favour. If there are no objections in the next seven days I will amend
332:, please stop reverting each other and come to the talk page to discuss the changes. SilkTork, you made a bold change, Headbomb reverted you, now let's 1063:, because even if the article is a plagiarized, unattributed, one-line stub, it's possible that the topic is a top-level vital one. (In fact, the term 39: 3130: 2327: 2352: 1640: 437: 422: 382: 3290: 2338:
Vital should be either in the WikiProject Banner Shell, or in the regular Banner holder, and they do not warrant any other ranking on talk pages.
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has amended it in line with the RfC, so that the documentation no longer reads "should only be used where it is needed". This matter was raised by
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and it unfortunately didn't achieve consensus. Perhaps we'd have more success looking at the lessons learned there and trying again. Cheers,
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The RFC (which is also pretty close, 8-6 by my count, and it would be 8-7 had I known it was going on) is not a blanket approval on putting
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when it's needed. If it's not needed, don't add it. This is line with the existing documentation and the actual consensus on that page.
350: 3117: 74: 494:, what I gather here is that it was close enough that it should have a formal close from an uninvolved editor. I'll post a request at 292: 3310: 3305: 2388: 130: 126: 122: 118: 1004: 3283: 2590: 2471:
are all possibilities. If we can figure out something that looks good, I think it'll be a solution that satisfies both sides here.
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fits? Perhaps within group 8, "article history and milestones", but it would be good to see it explicitly mentioned. Thanks.
2607:, but whether or not an individual article is considered vital is information that should provided for editors, not readers. 282: 80: 2231: 2173: 2142: 1349:. It simply says that the article is of interest to WikiProject Vital Articles, but gives no ranking. It has been placed on 2712: 2688: 2666: 2647: 2625: 2510: 2068: 1669: 1139: 142: 2937: 2311: 3141:) 19:13, 11 February 2022 (UTC) And here's a page which has a couple of converted templates (and an empty banner shell): 2044: 1994: 1964: 1287: 1237: 1094: 3278: 3214: 1560:
You're right, my objection is because it defaults as a small, right-aligned box. I agree with your proposal of keeping
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inquire at the Project about this obscure person being "vital", and listed by the person who wrote it, I get no answer
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in 2020, as it's not a standard kind of WikiProject and its banners aren's usually included in the banner shell.
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editors who come together as in a WikiProject, and should be treated as one. It's an internal, talk page matter.
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No problem; to avoid misunderstanding, can you link the revision you want removed? Or, just feel free to do it.
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However, the information the talk page visitor actually needs is very small. It could be displayed as merely
1940: 1051:, Vital articles are at #4, and WikiProjects at #9. The abstraction I was going for in grouping the two, was 311: 69: 2115:, and won't collapse when used inside WPBS. The banner shall is not the place to put non-collapsing banners. 3210: 2603:
here. The vital article ranking lists themselves have some reader-facing value as they're a good link from
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has overhauled the project pages and tried to refocus it toward improving the articles within its scope.
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at the end, as they are so often obvious, and are also most often templated at the top of the article.
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earlier than the WikiProject banners has been in place since August 2014, more than eight years ago. --
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And now if we could just move Vital in to the WikiProject shell, and language in to the banner, voila.
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Knowledge talk:WikiProject Vital Articles#TfD follow-up: Fate of the vital article talk banner
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regarded as unacceptable would both be useful, and in line with the consensus of the RfC.
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I would go further and say that language-related guideline banners should only go on the
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Quite like this colour-differentiation proposal, and support the regrouping as proposed.
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in the not-too-distant past on this exact question; it came to no consensus, which per
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if they might be willing to restore the status quo ante until that happens. Cheers,
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As someone who commented but didn't feel strongly enough to !vote in the discussion
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may be placed on any talk page, but should not be placed en-masse on all talk pages
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communicate only that the article falls within some (normally obvious) topic area.
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and sees some potential for the vital articles system, I have a few thoughts here.
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Oh sorry for the poorly-worded comment, I wasn't trying to argue that something
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in June 2020. I see the placement of the Women in Red project banners was also
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I would prefer to see 6. Language-related talk page guideline banners, such as
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While I agree with your concept in general, I disagree with your placement of
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which will collapse it); the second is a non-WikiProject banner, built around
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As a (semi-active) member of WikiProject Vital articles, I agree that the
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Knowledge:Templates for discussion/Log/2023 May 4#Template:Vital article
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rules, and user scripts should be modified to follow it when possible. –
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and see a list of open tasks. To browse help related resources see the
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Vital articles should be with Wikiprojects, not active nominations.
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succinctly in the same box would be more effective than any generic
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Sounds good. I generally put anything not covered by the above into
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It was definitely a mistake and I removed it. Thanks for the ping!
155: 2147:"The banner shll is not the place to put non-collapsing banners." 3193:
Here's a case study for you all—what's the best way to organise
159: 1696:– should only be necessary on talk pages with several banners 3266:
about the edit you reverted? I've been reminded that it has
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a true WikiProject banner template - it is not built around
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14. Attribution history: Copy, split, merge, translate, etc.
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for an example of the problem created by placing the small
3319:, most transclusions are below 16. Page metadata, such as 3223:
Removed calm and controversial from a very quiet talk page
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Article editing restrictions, warnings, and guidance (A)
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7. Language-related talk page guideline banners, such as
3270:, so the talk page is the best place to make your case. 1300:, is a true WikiProject banner and may be placed inside 2383:
on a process point, which is that this conversation is
1163:, that's a really good point, and I have two thoughts: 3066:
or its talk page: Where was the RfC, out of interest?
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Here's an example of how useful the Vital Project is:
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I am unclear on if there is actually a preference for
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Language-related talk page guideline banners, such as
1055:. Clearly, "active nominations" are about recognizing 3220:
Merged OTD to AH (have a bot almost ready to do that)
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While we're looking at this, could we specify where
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The level 5 Vital Articles list is monitored by the
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Article issues, collaboration, and improvement: (A)
15: 3369:. Is there consensus to consistently move it down? 2658:Sdkb, doubly reinforcing my view is this text from 1059:, and it seems to me that Vital articles are about 2986:sidebar on former educational assignment templates 767:6. Specific talk page guideline banners, such as 3440: 2746:, where I have proposed displaying as just e.g. 1090:, and really this is more or less equivalent to 452:on every page, and this page reflects that. Add 3226:Moved old moves, merges, etc in to banner shell 492:(it was CENT-listed but not technically an RfC) 2742:You all are invited to join the discussion at 2120:User talk:Kanashimi#Placement of Vital article 1746:Specific talk page guideline banners, such as 1708:– should only be used where it is needed; see 3133:which followed the Rfc and has a link to it. 2071:. It should not be used on the talk pages of 2033:There's been no opposition to that suggestion 1613:Vital tags should be placed with WikiProjects 1284:are not the same: the first is a redirect to 3162:they tended to stay around forever. I think 2150:So let's convert it and make it collapse. 2095:template, as I have pointed out before, is 995:to abstract it down to seven, if possible. 254: 1138:For me, vital articles is a WikiProject ( 684:5. High-importance attention templates – 184:does not require a rating on Knowledge's 2520:where more people are likely to see it. 1316:, so is not collapsible - not even with 1047:, thanks for your comment. Currently at 3395:. I think the transclusion I saw above 3373:Special:WhatLinksHere/Template:Refideas 2780:There is now a follow-up discussion at 2374:vehemently opposed to talk page clutter 2236:Just a quick note that the user script 1525:for me, is that it should be kept with 1455:template above large templates such as 1100:which is basically unused in favour of 3441: 3317:Special:WhatLinksHere/Template:Central 3311:Template:central and Template:refideas 1936:template when 3+ are present, such as 1714:High-importance attention templates – 1655:Active nominations, when applicable – 3390:Reliable sources for medical articles 3284:Multiple banners for the same project 755:Reliable sources for medical articles 261:and a volunteer will visit you there. 231:This page is within the scope of the 2069:Knowledge:WikiProject Vital Articles 1140:Knowledge:WikiProject Vital Articles 936:Stats, Metadata, and externals: (A) 173: 171: 167: 898:8. Article history and milestones: 764:Talk page advice and warnings: (T) 190:It is of interest to the following 23:for discussing improvements to the 13: 3131:Educational noticeboard discussion 2518:Knowledge:Village pump (proposals) 14: 3470: 2461:, or putting it in the header of 2747: 2660:Knowledge:Vital articles/Level/5 2437: 1870:) or "article milestone" (e.g., 1086:isn't about quality, it's about 577: 224: 203: 172: 141: 40:Click here to start a new topic. 3064:Template:Educational assignment 1900:) banner, preferably within an 270:Template:Knowledge Help Project 2065:. However, its doc does state 648:Topic and article quality (A) 257:ask for help on your talk page 1: 3247:23:46, 23 February 2023 (UTC) 3215:23:32, 23 February 2023 (UTC) 3197:? As above, and then one big 3177:21:04, 11 February 2022 (UTC) 3155:19:15, 11 February 2022 (UTC) 3118:18:58, 11 February 2022 (UTC) 3086:18:53, 11 February 2022 (UTC) 3042:18:44, 11 February 2022 (UTC) 3021:08:23, 11 February 2022 (UTC) 2926:16:22, 21 February 2023 (UTC) 2738:14:42, 25 February 2023 (UTC) 2713:16:15, 21 February 2023 (UTC) 2689:12:28, 21 February 2023 (UTC) 2648:03:59, 22 February 2023 (UTC) 2626:16:11, 21 February 2023 (UTC) 2591:11:48, 21 February 2023 (UTC) 2569:16:07, 21 February 2023 (UTC) 2530:08:45, 21 February 2023 (UTC) 2511:07:54, 21 February 2023 (UTC) 2493:05:01, 21 February 2023 (UTC) 2389:WT:WikiProject Vital Articles 2368:21:51, 20 February 2023 (UTC) 2353:17:45, 20 February 2023 (UTC) 2297:17:15, 20 February 2023 (UTC) 2267:02:08, 20 February 2023 (UTC) 1830:Any "article history" (e.g., 1601:21:09, 11 February 2022 (UTC) 1586:20:09, 11 February 2022 (UTC) 1549:19:02, 11 February 2022 (UTC) 1485:04:16, 11 February 2022 (UTC) 1408:14:48, 25 February 2023 (UTC) 1388:19:06, 12 February 2022 (UTC) 1367:13:09, 12 February 2022 (UTC) 1337:12:53, 12 February 2022 (UTC) 1253:10:27, 12 February 2022 (UTC) 1214:22:25, 11 February 2022 (UTC) 1152:05:59, 11 February 2022 (UTC) 1134:03:58, 11 February 2022 (UTC) 1078:03:17, 11 February 2022 (UTC) 1036:21:42, 10 February 2022 (UTC) 1005:21:06, 10 February 2022 (UTC) 834:9. WikiProject banners, in a 592:20:52, 10 February 2022 (UTC) 573:20:03, 10 February 2022 (UTC) 542:19:59, 10 February 2022 (UTC) 521:19:39, 10 February 2022 (UTC) 486:19:22, 10 February 2022 (UTC) 438:18:13, 10 February 2022 (UTC) 423:17:47, 10 February 2022 (UTC) 383:16:58, 10 February 2022 (UTC) 351:14:11, 10 February 2022 (UTC) 37:Put new text under old text. 3459:Knowledge Help Project pages 3454:Top-importance Help articles 2980:16:03, 14 January 2023 (UTC) 2960:21:54, 13 January 2023 (UTC) 2895:22:56, 13 January 2023 (UTC) 2877:21:43, 13 January 2023 (UTC) 2232:11:25, 14 January 2023 (UTC) 2194:21:42, 13 January 2023 (UTC) 2174:21:10, 13 January 2023 (UTC) 2143:11:01, 13 January 2023 (UTC) 2122:, the present advice to put 2028:10:19, 13 January 2023 (UTC) 1641:05:18, 13 January 2023 (UTC) 1535:, since they are both about 1443:User talk:GoingBatty/Sandbox 1341:I'm not seeing any value in 975:Talk page nav (bottom): (T) 895:History and attribution (A) 287:This page has been rated as 7: 3349:clearly takes the place of 3279:02:18, 18 August 2022 (UTC) 2966:discussion could be had at 1670:Featured article candidates 45:New to Knowledge? Welcome! 10: 3475: 3435:20:35, 1 August 2024 (UTC) 3264:"dubious and prescriptive" 2667:WikiProject Vital Articles 2045:WikiProject Vital Articles 1995:WikiProject Vital Articles 1965:WikiProject Vital Articles 1288:WikiProject Vital Articles 1238:British English editnotice 1095:WikiProject Vital Articles 293:project's importance scale 88: 1513:Talk:Liberation of France 621:Talk page nav (top): (T) 286: 241:, where you can join the 219: 198: 75:Be welcoming to newcomers 3385:but could also go below 3375:could be considered 13. 3364:WikiProject banner shell 3306:22:35, 5 July 2023 (UTC) 3268:been accepted for a year 3252:Article history template 2832:Language-related banners 2824:08:20, 23 May 2023 (UTC) 2803:19:42, 27 May 2023 (UTC) 2466:WikiProject banner shell 2014:WikiProject banner shell 1931:WikiProject banner shell 1304:WikiProject banner shell 1292:(and being built around 1182:#F8EABA background color 839:WikiProject banner shell 2776:15:06, 4 May 2023 (UTC) 2372:As someone who is both 2067:... pages that concern 1509:Talk:War guilt question 552:Special:Diff/1062162289 408:, any thoughts on that? 3449:NA-Class Help articles 2996:educational assignment 2899:Fully agreed, there, @ 1951:WikiProject Television 612:Reducing arbitrariness 404:or something similar? 267:Knowledge:Help Project 234:Knowledge Help Project 70:avoid personal attacks 3207:~~ AirshipJungleman29 2938:Consolidate templates 2905:proposed that in 2021 2289:~~ AirshipJungleman29 2039:expressed opposition. 1990:, though I note that 1233:; far more useful is 743:Connected contributor 651:1. Active nominations 135:Auto-archiving period 3415:. Where do we think 2757:as mentioned above. 1941:WikiProject Elements 2306:An obscure artist, 1916:banners, including 1184:would help? Maybe, 3359:. A few are above 3262:, what exactly is 3195:Talk:Imelda Marcos 2541:CactiStaccingCrane 2385:rather slow moving 2308:William Utermohlen 2240:currently inserts 2215:. 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