Knowledge

2058:– This is really about two different things: should there be some kind of markup to identify something as a date, and should the markup be used to allow personal preferences in formatting. On general principes, markup is usually a good idea, even if we can't think of good uses for it right now. I enjoy having the ability to specify a personal preference for date formatting, and would like the ability to specify personal preferences for even more things in the future (metric versus non metric units, "colour" versus "color", etc.); such things are impossible without markup. I agree with the objection that anonymous users should not be excluded from features enjoyed by logged-in users, and counter that it is possible, in principle, to modify the software to allow anonymous users to store preferences in cookies. I agree with the objection that {{#formatdate|March 11, 2009}} would be complex and laborious, but counter that the actual markup syntax has not yet been determined, and I would hope that it will not be so complex and laborious. I disagree with the objection under "Metadata fallacy" in the "Statement against"; it is almost impossible for a search tool to tell the difference between a date that is a candidate for reformatting and one that is not (for example, dates in quotations should not be reformatted). I agree with the concerns under "Development risks" in the "Statement against", and hope that those concerns are considered when the syntax details are worked out. People who complain about overlinking are missing the point; formatting and linking are independent concepts, even though both require markup. — 4330:. This improves the look and feel of the encyclopedia, by providing the option for (registered) users to view their content in the most appropriate format for their needs. Although unregistered users cannot do this through a preferences setting, it might be possible to implement a localization cookie, or some such thing, that offers them the same option. For the casual unregistered user (of which there are many), by autoformatting, we could define a default state for each article, so that the edit wars could be confined to a localization template that sets default date formatting (and maybe other style conventions) for the entire article. With that, there is still a net benefit to all users in terms of formatting consistency, even though only some users would be aware of the additional benefit of setting their own preferred format. I do acknowledge that there could be a performance penalty due to parsing dates, but having implemented date parsing on other platforms, I can't see this as being a disproportionate disadvantage, computationally. Also, although I'm not familiar with the MediaWiki implementation, it seems reasonably simple to cache these computational results in a way that limits the penalty. Basically, unless the backend of MediaWiki is a mess, I doubt that there will be significant performance losses, compared to the regular loading of pages and evaluation of templates. Finally, any good implementation ought to avoid mandatory linking of the date (which appears to be the intent of the poll question)—but by the same token, the syntax chosen should not prevent date-linking, when appropriate. 10650:(as it has heretofore) and the option is extended to all readers. Since this debate resurrected itself last summer, the two main reasons for deprecating datelinking have been the “sea of blue” and, more particularly, the fact that only a tiny percentage of readers – those who are registered users – even have the option of viewing dates in their preferred format; furthermore, the use of this option prevented registered users (who comprise a significant portion of the most active editors) from realizing what a mess the date formats in a given article are – which is what the great majority of readers actually see. There was always considerable support for a developer-created solution that would permit all readers to be able to set a preference; this would, of course, not remedy the mixed-format mess, but would at least allow readers to choose to not have to view these problems. To the extent that autoformatting of dates is not available to all readers, then it behooves editors to rely on the raw text format to know what may need cleaning up. The crux of the problem, then, is how resolvable the coding of such an autoformatting parser or template function is. Folk more knowledgeable than myself seem to be falling out on both sides of that issue, so until there’s a specific proposal on how to accomplish that, this whole poll is moot. 11365: 14449: 11655: 2760:, with some caveats: (a) An unregistered reader must see a consistently formatted set of dates within any one article, by whatever means is possible (tag each article automatically for US/UK variety of English, and make a random assignment where there are no bot-discernible clues? Or something based on the user's IP address, by continent? Or... ?). I see the danger that because all we editors have probably set our date preferences, we don't get to see the potential mess that the majority of readers see. (b) (slight side issue) A top priority must be to avoid, and correct, any use of ambiguous dates like 3-4-2009 or 3/4/2009 (yesterday or last month?) (c) Input required from editors must be minimal in keystrokes and easy to remember, and/or a bot must be able to pick up dates for formatting (suggesting that a "don't format" tag for any date mentioned in a quote or title of a work would be helpful). But on balance, given that the two date formats have as much support as honor/honour etc spellings, I support date formatting if the above can be satisfied. 7689:. I was going to "vote" neutral, but I changed my mind. In principle, I like the idea of giving users the option of displaying dates in the manner they prefer. However, I doubt that more than a very small fraction of Knowledge users have ever taken advantage of this feature (or would do so in the future). In order to benefit from date formatting, a user must be registered and logged in, and must have set the preference for date display. However, my guess is that the vast majority of users who access Knowledge while logged in are logged in primarily to edit (not to read articles) and don't care about date display (because they are at Knowledge primarily to edit, not to read articles). Accordingly, I estimate that very few users actually benefit from date formatting. The small benefit of autoformatting does not justify the resources that would be expended to implement it (I figure autoformatting would consume volunteer time and space in articles, and it would intimidate a certain fraction of prospective volunteers, preventing them from volunteering). -- 830: 4284:- I definitely like the idea of having the system (finally) format dates to my own preference, rather than whatever format an author likes. Personally, I prefer "YYYY-MM-DD", since that is what I am used to from computer programming. The other way I like to see dates is "DDDD, MMMM D, YYYY". The thought of being able to change dates around like that (something computers can do so easily) is very nice. I've always hated using wiki markup as a kludge to make that work, so I tended not to do so. But once this gets approved and we can start formatting dates automagically, that will be wonderful. It should be as automatic and transparent to the user as possible. Ideally, no special tags required. If a date is in the article and recognizable as a date, the software should adapt it. If there is something that's not a date but is recognized as one, there should be a simple tag (nowiki perhaps, being familiar and similar in purpose?) that would prevent false positives. -- 2743:. The days of inflexible mainframe systems are over, for better or worse—and the perceived complexity it allows is probably worse. It is now routine to experience banner advertising which relates to our recent individual browsing history, and websites which greet us by name and remember our preferences, even though they serve millions of users. Adding functionality which obeys a browser cookie to show dates in the preferred format while not reformatting quoted dates is not technically challenging. As wiki functionality goes, it's downright mundane engineering. Besides user friendliness, a big advantage in such encoding is to simplify and promote date harvesting, which could be used to create an event database to answer questions like "Which month has the most shipwrecks in the North Pacific?" "What all happened in Harney County, Oregon in 1894?" "What was the subsequent noteworthy event to happen after Abraham Lincoln died?" — 11542: 3562:. Though I'm relatively new to Knowledge (having left the place in 2006 for reasons mostly irrelevant to the discussion here before rejoining recently), I think I need to have a say in this. That stated, and having read both the statements for and against, I think the for statements do make more sense. Firstly, I disagree that we are trying to solve a non-existent problem here. Formatting consistency is an important and integral part of every publication, and the use of inconsistent formatting and double standards reflects unprofessionalism. Yes, it's slightly unfair that unregistered users won't be able to choose the date format they want to use, but this is countered by the fact that they will at least be able to see consistent date formatting on every article. Labourious and complex? I thought this was what bots are for! And the Knowledge-constrained Google search is underused for a good reason - it's 8152:- on the KISS principle and because of all the issues facing Knowledge (which is asking for donations to keep itself going) and its volunteers, this seems very low priority. Further, if anything at all is needed from editors to attend to this issue, it's not worth it. In other words, I wouldn't expend any sort of resources (even this poll seems time-consuming) and in my opinion, as a fairly new Wikipedian, Knowledge is already bogged down in an enormous number of these kinds of discussions. The current system works, all editors know they are supposed to be consistent within articles, and as a member of the copyediting team, so far I rarely find that any article is inconsistent - but if it is, tag it for copyediting and let it go. Nothing requiring additional mark-up should be added to Knowledge until a larger number of people are familiar with current mark-up. 7364:. {{#formatdate:}} cannot even handle ranges yet; can we expect ever to have it handle this? But let's suppose for the moment that these problems are solved (... it's the year 2187 ...) autoformatting brings with it another ill. By displaying dates in the user's preferred format underlying inconsistency can be hidden from the very people who would otherwise be fixing such problems. Perhaps a page-by-page default system could be implemented to avoid this. Thus WikiMedia's autoformatting has a fair way to go until it is a realistically workable solution. Is it worth the trouble? Is there any great difference between looking at the other sides date formatting as opposed to looking at their spelling? Date formatting is just one aspect of dialect, let it thus go under ENGVAR ... or at least until someone comes up with a workable solution to that. 12284:. The whole formatting thing is a no-brainer. Simple fact is, if functionality is provided for autoformatting it can be provided to most IP users too with simple preferences option for them via cookie system or countless other ways. Search engines, most news sources and millions of commercial sites have been doing it since Jesus was a small boy. Come down to it, autoformatting also allows the potential to do away with the linking argument completely because it can be controlled by a users preferences as well. Want to link dates? switch it on via preferences. don't want them linked? leave it off. And don't bore me with the non-logged in users rubbish - most of them a: don't care, b: have cookies turned on (or are unaware of their presence) or c: know how to allow for cookies by site. BOTs to do the bulk conversions to 2811:; If an argument can be found then an argument will occur. You cannot keep everyone happy unless you give them what they prefer. Trivial though it may be arguments have happened over less. If autoformatting can give people their own preferred date format then it's all to the good. The current system works and is only being deprecated by editors looking to find something wrong and then argue about it. Human nature at its very best. So, in my view, autoformatting is the way to go using the current system which is easy to achieve, easy to remember how to do it without any arcane template formatting to remember. Easy is good, easy is less prone to error and best of all easy is a great way of pissing off people who just want to make life difficult just for the sake of it! -- 7130:. I think the real giveaway here is that statement that autoformatting has "been an option in operating systems for decades". Yes, this is true, because decades ago most operating systems displayed dates in numeric format where there was genuine ambiguity about the meaning of the date if it was in the first twelve days of the month. This seems to have led to an assumption in nerdland that there there is also an ambiguity/readability issue even when the month is spelt out. We shouldn't be following operating systems, but real-world information sources. I have never come across a web information source or news provider that worries about this enough to give readers an option as to how to display the date, so for us to worry about the issue is to engage in 8642:: I believe we should strictly follow ISO standard in all and any cases not just with dates but time, units and everything else. Could this be achieved autoformatting would be a trivial task of simple pattern recognition that even could be done locally with java scripting, the only special tag needed is in the case when a format should not be localized. The reason I oppose this is that I think that all form of localization should be in a general format, to implement a special case for dates would be confusing and will work against a uniform standard in the raw text format. I understand that "correcting" everything to ISO standard is a monumental task however I think the benefit outweighs the cost and we do not lack the manpower to do so. 13761:. In another post here I showed that five of the ten national daily newspapers in the United Kingdom use "April 3, 2009", rather than "3 April 2009". Where is the evidence that one format is preferred over the other in the UK? And the same goes for every other country where English is used to a significant extent except for the United States - I've given examples for India, Canada, and Australia, and would urge you and anyone else to provide such evidence if you are claiming that there is any country that uses English to a significant extent where "April 3, 2009" is not a perfectly acceptable format. Once again, why am I the only one of the hundreds of people commenting here to provide any evidence for their position? 1798:, the existence of the tags does nothing to detract from the presented data, and allows the development of future applications which might well present useful data to the user. Consider, for example, a parser which was able to resolve that last example, from the article context, as being a date concurrent with the first two - that might be a useful research feature, and one whose operation could only be helped by date tagging. Or imagine a historical article in which the author finds it useful to use the early, local calendar in order to relate the sequence of events. If each date is tagged, an application might offer automatic pop-up conversions of each date into other relevant calendars. 793:. Readers may well be familiar with both "3 February 2009" and "February 3 2009" (and I have no strong preference for either format), but auto-formatting can help avoid the abominations that are "3/2/09" and "2/3/09", both by formatting as either "DD MMM YYYY" or "MMM DD YYYY" (i.e. not "DD/MM/YY" or "MM/DD/YY") and by encouraging editors to specify dates using the template. Consistency throughout an article is a big plus, and the option for readers to see date formats based on their browser or OS locale is a bonus. In the future auto-formatting could even be used to wikilink months and years, making dealing with the outcome of the two discussions below relatively trivial. Cheers, 14653:) "On 28 September 1838 he noted this insight." to "On September 28, 1838, he noted this insight." as well as reformatting "He died on 19 April 1882." to "He died on April 19, 1882." without complicating the syntax of the markup or making mistakes when the year is followed by a period (or other punctuation characters like parentheses or ndashes). The present, deprecated, system of DA fails to supply the required second comma to produce apposition. I have seen no suggestion that any "Son of DA" will fare any better. In fact, any proposed DA will increase errors by hiding the missing second comma from many editors who do not have that preference set. -- 13907:(or encourage or recommend, etc.) its use? I would vote "yes" to the first and "no" to the second; therefore neutral on the combined question. I do recognize that some people complain about having to wade through additional markup code when editing, but I personally don't see that as a big problem. And, on the other side, I recognize that some people seem to think it is important that every date in every article be viewable in the same format, but again I don't see that as a huge problem when we allow (and affirmatively endorse) such inconsistencies as American and British spellings and some other usages that vary from one article to the next. -- 2090: 2614:- Was going to vote "No" on the basis of the difficulty of implementing the Autoformatting system - but on thinking it over I feel that Knowledge is just the platform for these technological systems to be worked out - and having consistency over all articles for users is a very good thing. In response to the "There's no problem" argument - I don't think that change should necessarily be negated on the basis of having a problem or not. The "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" argument ignores the possibility of new tools that may or may not provide a better experience. You'll never know if you don't try though. 10124:) and others convinced me that that is not actually the case, and that, if anything, this change appeals mainly to Americans who can't cope with Continental date conventions. I'm also convinced that using even lightweight markup to dress up something as fundamental as a calendar date is ultimately confusing for new editors, and we should not be taking the encyclopedia that way. At this point, I think that while a bit of date markup like {{date|2009|04|07}} might still be useful for tasks like building sortable tables, it should not be made the standard way to express dates throughout the encyclopedia. 11789: 13093:, all of which say that it's "April 1, 2009", not "1 April 2009"? That's five of the ten national daily newspapers, so you couldn't get a much more even split. And I have given similar references above to show that both formats are used in several other countries where English is widely used. It's no good saying that it's "simply not true" that both formats are used when the evidence says that they are. And why is it, when we are supposed to base this encyclopedia on reliable sources, that I am the only one of the 248 people who have voted here so far who has bothered to provide any evidence? 11411:" are actually people who have thought through all these issues and have come to the considered conclusion that simply entering dates using plain text solves all significant issues, and has no syntactical complexity for the wider editing community. In addition, I belong to the group of programmers who believe it is inappropriate (and downright unprofessional) to commence coding without (at least a functional) specification. A large part of the reason for the mess we are currently in is the (well-intentioned) introduction of code that had no specification, let alone community consensus. 4152:- Autoformatting certainly has potential, I would like to see more options - such as users logged out being able to set some kind of preference, to further take advantage of Knowledge's electronic nature. It is good that linking is no longer required for autoformatting, and the potential is still open to allow bots to do most of the labour, though it could just develop slowly over time through human editing. I do believe consistency across article would be helpful, like with other encyclopaedias, and while it perhaps ought to be trivial this clearly matters to more than a few people. 2465: 1532:. A date is an essential element to record and archive data, information, and knowledge. Format is an important aspect for time and date stamps. The format should be consistent across the community. After all, are we not a community? Unfortunately, many of the arguments against are not persuasive; these appear more like anarchist propaganda versus constructive comments or opinions about the topic under discussion. If we, as a community, are unable to set a basic expectation for dating records, then why do we have all the other rules and guidelines in place? 9987:(Disclosure - I was contacted privately to contribute after expressing an opinion last year, and would not have seen this discussion otherwise) - Oppose - What will the default format be? If it forces all articles into the same format, that will be bad - UK articles should default to UK format and USA articles should default to USA format. So the only way to make it work is to have two format statements (one for USA format, one for UK format) - and it's just not worth it for such a minor thing. Adds too much complexity to editing for no good reason. 5420: 3809:- the most important thing is that the date is easily understood by the reader and that it be consistent across all articles. Formatting to the user's local seems like the right decision here. The linking and delinking of dates has been silly anyway. Many proponents of linked dates were just looking for some consistency in how dates are expressed. Linking to a list of things that happened on that date never provided much value. Effort involved in making this work is not insignificant but this seems like a job ideally suited for a BOT.-- 8029:, if as an unregistered user I'm allowed to do so. That's one of my reasons for objecting: people shouldn't be wasting time on this when it won't benefit users like me. In addition any amount of additional markup on something as short as a date is unwieldy. And it's not just a matter of rendering "3 April 2009" or "April 3, 2009"; if this comes up within a sentence a second comma may be required in the second format, i.e. "April 3, 2009,". Even if we provide options for this, many people used to other formats will get it wrong. -- 7030: 2673: 858:. Providing a consistent date format would be beneficial to the look of articles and wikipedia. Presumably IP tracing could also be used to provide MDY for North American readers and DMY for others even if not registered users. It would also negate the need for date linking as a way to autoformat which dilutes wikilinks and is generally of little use. Please at least implement the code so there is the option of using autoformat which can be determined, as with reference styles, by consensus on individual articles. |→ 2880:. Consistency, especially within an article, would be a big boon to readability and lessen the vexing task of making sure your dates are internally consistent with the remainder of the existing article. The inconsistency of date formatting across multiple articles is a nuisance for sure, though not a show-stopper. Worrying about all of the existing dates within articles is a red-herring -- there's no requirement to go out and fix them all, though I suspect a robot could be written that would do that. -- btphelps 8959:— Negative cost/benefit (cost here in terms of nuisance, effort, and time). It's a neat capability, to be sure, but it is the answer to a question that doesn't really need asking, akin to hiring a translator to translate a speech being made by an Australian to an American audience or vice versa. Nobody's access to Knowledge is hindered by encountering dates in this format versus that format; let's focus our efforts on implementing features to expand accessibility where such expansion is actually needed. — 10086: 8083:- I don't feel very strongly on this, but on reflection it's a pretty clear decision. Autoformatting is a nice idea in theory, but in practice delivers a mild benefit to a very small number of comitted and involved editors (who are clued-in enough to set preferences) whilst delivering an equally mild detriment to the vast bulk of our readers. A nice idea, but the implementation didn't live up to what we hoped for, and we're hopefully a mature enough project that we can drop things that don't help us. 14158:. Your phrasing that it "rewrite page content" is vastly weaker when one keeps in mind it is just date strings, which are not copyrightable works by themselves. One should also consider the implementation: if you use a template or other wiki-markup, you have consented to the autoformatting (else you would not have used that syntax); alternatively if you don't use any special markup, it's likely a bot or human will have to go make a change to the article which will be reflected in the edit history. 2517:. I see no reason to prevent others from getting a format they can read easily, since it doesn't inconvenience people like me who don't care what format they get. An article writer will need to type a few more keystrokes, but will be entering a standard format and won't need to think about choosing a format appropriate to the article subject. As a side issue, I think autoformatting would be a useful social tool to discourage the appearance of confusing numeric dates (3/2/09 vs 2/3/09, etc). 13994: 8135:. The supporters that say that Knowledge should present dates consistently conveniently forget that we don't spell colour/color or meter/metre consistently across the encyclopedia either. The example that Britannica uses consistent date formats is just an extension of the fact that they use consistent British English spelling. The thing that we need to do is to have consistent date formats within each article and plain text dates can solve that without the need for additional markup. -- 13698: 12065:. For example, if a citation using the ugly 2009-04-05 format were used in two articles, one dealing with a US-based subject and the other dealing with a UK-based subject, it would appear (to all readers) in the US-based article as April 5, 2009 and in the UK-based article as 5 April 2009. I'd support an autoformatting system that automatically translated dates in that fashion, as long as there was a parameter that allowed for articles to use appropriate formats, in keeping with 13783: 2534:. I think this is a handy feature for users that are not used to the (mostly used) North Amarican date style. Allowing the autoformatting would be a convenient solution for everyone (those who don't care could still be shown the 'normal' date as written in the different articles, whereas those who care could choose their respective preferences). I think this is more the 'wikipedian' way of acting than imposing the date format an author has choosen to use in his article. 7428:. I've happily gone my whole life without realising that this is an issue, or that there are (supposedly) country-specific preferences. I read "April 1" and "1 April" equally easily -- the difference doesn't even register. As many others have said, I don't see that there is a problem to solve, and I oppose the unnecessary addition of markup that simply serves to make editing more cumbersome, cryptic, error-prone and time-consuming. Matt 11:55, 1 April 2009 (UTC). 5826:'s taste. I don't mean it's technically difficult to have one without the other because that would be absurd. I meant it's difficult to debate one in isolation — if the only way WP will have autoformatting is with ] syntax (autolinking or not) or {{#formatdate}}, the resultantly ugly/hackish wikitext is IMO too great a price to pay for a very slight benefit. Now if somebody wants to ask me about autoformatting with new syntax such as <<2009-04-01: --> 5180:. For all the same reasons as every other time we've been asked the same question. Utterly pointless function that provides extra work and complication for editors and developers, while providing nothing of value for anyone (especially our readers who won't see it anyway). Will also damage Knowledge, since if editors use this tool then they won't see dates as readers see them, and so will leave certain errors (punctuation, format consistency) uncorrected.-- 2833:; Both globalization and localization are made easier this way. There is genuine ambiguity in DMY or YMD e.g. my birthday 12/04/72. Within articles with much collaboration, especially in the references, dates typically ARE NOT consistent within the article even now. Let the machine do the stupid work. Also, just because the facility is there does not mean it has to be made compulsory, any more than linking or putting something into sections is compulsory. 496:. Per DAF. I was one of the user who objected to the "unilateral delinking campaigns by bots and other editors", and was treated quite rudely by the other side, with odd accusations of "elitism" being hurled, among other things. There seems to be some deep-rooted reasons against autoformatting that have nothing to do with autoformatting itself. I'm glad to finally see a project wide poll on this, though I am at a complete loss as to why this was not done 7792:. Autoformatting requires more work, and i see no benefit to readers at all. Everyone understands dates in both common formats. There is already to much syntax required to fullfil MoS requriments for FAs, and anyone that thinks people will not argue over the removal/adding of formatting just as much as national date formats underestimates the desire of editors for pointless warring. Simply having rules for dates as with Engvar is the way to go. 12912:" (as even the post before UC_Bill's indicates). I'm not suggesting that you (are you back?) or perhaps other programmers couldn't get something going to handle individual cases, however as has been demonstrated over more than three years, it is increasingly difficult to not only get the basics of auto-formatting right, but seemingly impossible to specify how auto-formatting should work for the many ways that dates are represented on WP. 1786:, surprising myself after some thought. Initially, I was bothered only by the deletion of existing markup, since the "KISS" and "There's no problem to solve" arguments are compelling, and the existing applications (auto-linking to a page about that year, or a page about that date, allowing registered users to choose their date display format) are of dubious merit. But the idea that this metadata might have some future use is tantalising: 14611: 6257:, serves no purpose link wise as the links do not go anywhere useful, adding excessive blue links everywhere (by default, automatically "overlinks" article as dates are usually repeated multiple times. Also negates the purpose of even formatting dates in articles, and can be confusing to IP and new users who see one thing in the article, decide to edit, and see something totally different. Write them as text, and leave it at that. -- 38: 11347: 7451:- Not much gain (is there any gain at all?), and huge cost. I as an editor don't want to see the page source full of even more cryptic tags. And I'm a software engineer who have been programming date handling for databases every now and then since 1994 (as my paid day job), I know how complex it is to handle dates. The MediaWiki devs should spend their time on more productive issues. They haven't even had time to fix the #time 3123:(against) "There is no problem to solve". While I agree that the problem listed in this argument, "Whether day or month comes first (3 January; January 3)", is unimportant, I do not agree that there are no problems to solve. To the contrary, I believe that the lack of encyclopedic consistency is an issue, and that the lack of consistency of date formatting across the encyclopedia is one part of the overall consistency problem 1863:. Specific guidance will reduce problems if we'd just all agree on a standard format to use. I have no preference in any particular way. That said, allowing personal settings to determine the presentation of the material would be the next best step. The primary reason I'm responding though is that the issues brought up in opposition. I would also like to take a few seconds to address each comment in the oppose notification. 2229:, I find it easier to edit and read articles not worrying about whether the date is in MDY or DMY, and having the option to choose is a good idea in my opinion, and even if the option is there that doesn't necessarily mean it always has to be formatted correctly, wikipedia is about users editing, so if a user comes across a misformatted date they can change it, if the user doesn't care they don't have to, everybody wins.-- 14261: 4761:. Editors seeing a different output than the readers is a recipe for disaster. I appreciate autoformating, it is nice to have (international format FTW), but when I first became aware of its shortcomings, I stopped using it. Ever since, I've seen a great deal of articles being inconsistent because of this. Articles that have been fixed because I turned the feature off. The only way I would support autoformatting is if 776:. I can't help feeling this wouldn't even be an issue had the #formatdate implementation come first, rather than overloading this function onto linking. Frankly, I didn't know #formatdate existed until I saw this poll, but I always thought something like this was the best approach. I have generally delinked dates in the past in the course of doing other edits to articles; now I can reformat instead. This is progress. 551:- At the end of the day it is so much easier to read the dates when they are presented consistently across all articles. It will stop people editing articles to change the date to their personal preference, which I often see. Most importantly, wikipedia is about providing articles for the reader, not about providing a hobby for editors, as such arguments about extra key strokes and technical reasons are a bit mute. 7826:. No. I certainly don't want my markup to move even further from natural language, and the inevitably limited deployment of the templates will force any automated date-based tool to parse non-templated dates. And what would an automated tool do? It is unlikely to be able to tell which dates are closely linked to the article contents and which, say, describe the process of the article topic becoming well-understood. 11398:), however nothing came of it (despite a myriad of suggestions in various locations—similar to yours above). You do understand that all your examples above simply will be thrown into a pot—a pot that is already full to the overflowing with similar suggestions—however a pot that has so far failed to provide anything nutritious (or in the least bit edible) for the community. As you have not responded to my point " 8355:: Autoformatting does nothing for the vast majority of WP readers, only those who a) are logged into real accounts here, and b) have bothered to set autoformatting options. The autoformatting "feature" causes experienced editors (i.e. those likely to fix article inconsistencies) to rarely notice inconsistent dates within an article, including ISO formatting, that are presented inconsistently to most readers. — 7011:- Seems like making mountains out of molehills, as well as a solution in search of a problem. In general I'm against adding additional layers of complexity (code) to basic things like simple text, which just alienates new users & leads to technical screwups in editing. "March 31, 2009" and "31 March 2009" mean the same thing, and no one needs autoformatting to derive the same meaning from either format. -- 1627:. For the price of four brackets (]) around dates and no more than ten hours of programming time from an experienced PHP developer (I know this because I already wrote the code once) we can have consistent date formats across the project, the ability to have per-article defaults that override the site-wide default, support for date ranges, and the ability for registered users to specify their date format 1928: 579:, if only to easily enforce consistent date formatting on an page (I don't have date preferences set myself). If the formatting function has shorter syntax like {{#date:...}} it will be easy to use, easy to understand, will make transcluding templates with dates in them easier, and only one person has to worry once about the proper date format on a given article instead of every editor who adds a date. -- 4903:: there are so many reasons—the costs are horrendous and the benefit little (frankly, nothing, since day-month/month-day order is trivial); the risks are high that things will go mucky or that we'll be left holding a very smelly puppy; it breaks a basic principle that simplicity is best (if at all possible, and it is the reality now). I hope WPians do the cautious thing and throw this one out for good. 610:, date autoformatting can provide a consistent look across articles for users with either preferences or a default. This feature has been around and used, albeit unfortunately tied to date linking previously. Technology concerns can be overcome once agreed upon as a feature and the community decides on exact behaviour and markup. Additionally, feature facilitates easier use of citation templates. — 8982: 9320:(opposing an opposing position is nonsense). Please stop bickering and voting endlessly over something of such minor importance. Brion Vibber's solution is fine by me, as are any number of variants. Nice though it is, we don't need autoformatting of dates, and apparently there isn't consensus to do that. There would be no consensus for autoformatting of spelling, surely. Enough said, end of story. 1951: 4793:: the pros pointed out benefit only those who are logged in. For those who are not logged or are not registered users, they might see dates of varying formats. Autoformat does not promote consistency; the actual text is still inconsistent (and as pointed, obvious to those not logged in). Without autoformat, editors would readily spot any consistency errors in the date formats for an article. 4221:. Date formatting enables the reader to quickly understand dates, and everyone has their preference (I set mine a while back). For unregistered users, it would be a pipe dream to eventually combine autoformatting with either OS/browser locale settings (if accessable from the web server) or by inferring for the country where the IP address domain orginates (using some kind of GeoIP database). 10483: 5486:. Who is Knowledge for, the readers or the editors? The vast majority of our users never edit and are not registered. And from the perspective of an unregistered user, autoformatting makes our articles worse, not better, because it encourages editors to format their dates without regard for the way dates are generally formatted in the article concerned. A simple extension of 5214:. They look silly, often link to completely unrelated pages and devalue important links in "difficult" articles. I have contributed three FAs and I see absolutely no value in having linked dates. When I first discovered Knowledge, I clicked on those silly linked dates thinking that additional information on the subject in question could be found. I am sure others have done this. 2568:- Far too many articles are already marked with the globalize maintenance template for the most trivial of reasons, some even more trivial than the formatting of the date. The solution offered to replace autoformatting-- to wit, relying on the "overall format" of an article for date format localisation/localization-- likely will aggravate rather than mitigate this situation. -- 6542:: I'd oppose more strongly if I felt it was an important issue, but I don't see that we should be offering autoformatting if it isn't consistent across all dates in the encyclopedia (including sigs), and it could allow for all sorts of dates in the first place. However, it's a bit of a non-issue, we'd do better to agree a recognised style in the MOS if only that was possible. -- 11929:*sigh* If you actually read my last post I never claimed IPs will get a mish-mash of styles. I said that the only way to prevent them getting that is to choose their preference for them. I then said that there is no point in choosing a standard style for them, because it would need to be agreed upon. If we can agree a choice for that, we should just implement that choice as 13982:)" invisible - for those with it turned on, that read: (1836-11-18–1911-05-29), and mean that, in situations where there's good reason to use a non-standard format, such as "Accessed 2009-05-04" in a footnote, where compactness is advantageous, it'll be replaced with a less appropriate one. What's the point? What next? Will we make it so that readers in Greece have 1352:: Despite my fear of the effort involved to implement the system, I like the autoformatting proposal as a way to help readers. To the best of my knowledge, printed encyclopedias don't flip flop between date formats, so why should Knowledge? (Apologies for lumping the different types of encyclopedias into one category) If you have any questions, please contact me at 12967:, uses MMM DD, YYYY, so why does the Knowledge article about England lend itself any less to that format than the other? It's a myth that there is any consistent standard outside the United States, so why not just follow the standard that is used exclusively in civilian life there, and used interchangeably with DD MMM YYYY everywhere else where English is used? 12504: 658:- I support for various reasons. 1) For users that don't all look at dates the same way 2) Because it saves extraneous codes (not a lot, but it can add up, trust me). Plus, when the autoformatting was removed, we were left with dates in articles that looked like this (2007-02-03 or 2007-30-11). I think it was ill planned when it was first removed to begin with. 3476:. This, apart from allowing each user to choose date formatting, also gives them the choice of linking dates or not. This should please registered viewers, and the real debate should be over autolinking for unregistered users. (I assume that the date format would be chosen based on the country of origin of the user and thus need not be debated.) 2095: 13311:(1) Voters are under no obligation to provide all of their inner reasoning. Are you objecting to those who provided no comment? (2) It is no surprise that many people still refer to the concept of date autoformatting at "linking"—that has been the vernacular term for the concept for some five years. (2) There is reference to "the links" in the 4417:: This is complicated software, don't let anyone persuade you it's a piece of cake. If they haven't been able to get it right in SIX YEARS, nothing makes me think they will get it right any time soon. Of course Brion Vibber knows what he's talking about. While people say 'no pain, no gain', this is just sooo much pain for little gain. Applying 11012: 273:, not necessarily with auto-linking, although proper handling of metadata is possible without this, it facilitates the process. The move to formatted articles with reusable data is a necessary development generally. Given the number of wikignomes and the ingenuity of bot programmers, there should be no great difficulty in implementing it. 11489: 7183: 13899:{{#formatdate:Sept 4, 2007|dmy}} produces "Sept 4, 2007". I don't see how that makes anything worse than it would be if an editor simply typed in an incorrectly written date without the autoformatting code. I voted "neutral" because it seems to me that the autoformatting question really contains two hidden subquestions: (1) should we 842: 13880:) Actually, there lies a significant problem: a not-inconsiderable proportion of dates are wrongly input (Sept 4, for example, or your example), and the proposed system would need to be programmed to fix each individual possibility. Another reason, I believe, that we should not mess with editors' control over simple fixed-text dates. 8061:. Although I'm usually in favour of complicated technical solutions to non-problems (especially when I'm supposed to be doing something productive), this one is going to cause more grief than it's worth. As long as we don't use purely numeric dates, there's no ambiguity and the order (4 January vs January 4) doesn't matter at all. One 517:. The general formatting of all dates gives a consistent output for all articles. The improvements proposed in the software to allow/not allow the date to be linked when autoformatted makes it an even more attractive solution so that people do not have to worry about what is actually in the article text they see it the way they want. 13216:. That's compelling evidence of what date format is considered the norm on an international scale and where a global project such as WP should be headed. But if we can't get there in the short term, we should make good use of the autoformatting capability (already developed for the most part) for the benefit of the various audiences. 14328:, which says “the text of the Knowledge is copyrighted . . . by Knowledge editors and contributors and is formally licensed to the public under the GNU Free Documentation License”. Under the GFDL, if the article has been modified from the editors' version, then Knowledge must not display it without taking credit for modifications. 13676:) suggests that autoformatting is only useful to registered editors: "Autoformatting is a way of marking up dates to allow registered users to choose their preferred display format". However, is there any reason why autoformatting couldn't be performed for non-registered users? The user's locale could easily be inferred from the 7950:- Our own Chief Technical Officer says: "My personal recommendation would be to remove all date autoformatting." THis whole thing is complex and laborious with little to no added benefit. As long as a date is given, I don't care if it's written April 2, 2009, 2 April 2009, or the second day of the month of April of the year 2009. 3826:- Knowledge should be genuinely international. If any country other than the US had adoped a different date format we wouldn't even be having this debate. Given the preponderance of US editors, however, it's not unreasonable to toss them a bone and let them format dates as they see fit while the rest of the world gets on with it. 14052:, is a “user interface” which should be rewritten by a machine to support “user preferences”. “Personalized date formats in operating systems” don't rewrite the books you are reading or correct the language in music you listen to. This explanation is biased and fallacious, and is misleading editors who read it and vote. 8725:- Linking dates for the purpose of reformatting breaks the typical user's concept of linking and they also end up with tons of irrelevant links all over the page. The proposed replacement is just as bad. People who absolutely need to have date reformatting, should do it with a personal javascript or a browser plugin. -- 4251:). Autoformatting provides a superior ability to adapt and distribute Knowledge content in a global environment. Date format differences carry systemic bias issues e.g. MDY carries a particularly American systemic bias which if enforced on many articles would reflect poorly on Knowledge as a global project (and that's 1922:" Entire argument is a red herring. There are already significant differences between registered users and anonymous (namely image uploads, page move, semi-protected pages, etc). Adding one more isn't a big deal. As long as we choose a default date format, there should be no inconsistency with non-registered users. 297: 3234:. Both consistency and user choice are important. There is no technical reason why date-format preferences and other userprefs of a similar nature need to be restricted to registered users; a simple JS hack could allow even unregistered users to choose their preferred date format by setting a session cookie. 229:- it doesn't matter to me overmuch, but painful experience says that we will be flooded with complaints if we don't do this. However, any autoformatting solution should not result in automatic linking, should allow linking intentionally, should allow casual readers to set a viewing preference (this doesn't mean 3166:. In my opinion, less options in terms of data formatting and more consistency in date style across articles (i.e., throughout the encyclopedia) is a necessary addition to merely adding the (as I understand it, to be specified) functionality. To add the functionality without a change to MOSNUM would change by 72:. While I don't care much about having a user preference to make all dates into one format, something like {{#formatdate}} combined with a {{DEFAULTDATEFORMAT}} magic word to set the default for the whole page is necessary to avoid either forcing all date-handling templates to have a "dateformat" parameter on 5686: 11395: 7575:- Too much work for the gain, though I cannot agree with those who say the existing date formats pose no problem. The ISO dates are a pain in the neck and the problem for dates before the 12th of the month is real and needs to be addressed by editors. But i cannot see that autoformatting is a solution. 1549:. It is essential we get this consistent to avoid something like 1-2-2009/2-1-2009 which is ambiguous. A lack of standardization is just sloppy and makes articles appear to lack any credibility. Given the power of wikibots, auto formatting everything should not be an excessively difficult undertaking.-- 13936: 13000: 12614: 12557: 12503: 12436: 12342: 12176: 11488: 11474: 11223: 10619: 10477: 10340: 9201: 5419: 2672: 2631: 2094: 1791: 1609: 150: 14448: 13782: 13777: 13697: 13287: 13052: 12784: 12718: 12713: 11134: 10532: 10283: 10085: 10071: 9205: 8929: 6286: 5468: 3058: 2635: 1950: 1927: 1883: 1817: 1119: 829: 14562: 14260: 14228: 13993: 13821: 12667: 11541: 11346: 10834: 10156: 10079: 10050: 9748: 7706: 5706: 4769: 4312: 3887: 2089: 1902: 1497: 927: 841: 14201: 13573: 12155: 11278: 11011: 9500: 8981: 5805: 4851: 2268: 2165: 1809: 14105: 13033: 12246: 11722: 11654: 11151: 10408: 10020: 9862: 9518: 9334: 6741: 5511: 2464: 296: 14610: 12325: 12129: 11364: 11074: 10482: 9080: 7182: 5339: 1801: 13107: 12690: 11093: 10747: 7029: 5685: 2156: 879: 12416: 11860: 11788: 9612: 7633: 6470: 1813: 1583:. I understand that it might be a pain to reconfigure pages using templates or parser functions, but I don't think that's a reason for limiting a users choice. Couldn't a bot be written to do this anyway (or maybe written into AWB)? And is typing 10-20 extra characters really that big a deal? 1277: 13172: 11428: 10952: 9432: 5442: 3566:. Why can't we be able to use our own search engine, instead of having to rely on an external search engine? Developmental risks is a real issue, but I believe that, unless we lack the forsight to fix these problems before implementing this solution, this shouldn't be too much of a problem. -- 1805: 6764: 13485: 2726:. Semantic through syntax is a good thing. Plus, a lot of people browse en.wikipedia.org who - IMHO - would like the ISO-style more. Also being able to give more detail for a date and showing only a little (like wikilinks) would result in more readable and still information-packed articles. 11475: 6763: 9785:– The main problem I have come across with autoformatting is that it is impossible to format ranges of dates within a month so that they display readably no matter what the preference is set to. Autoformatting just causes problems and has no advantages, it should be completely disabled. 13822: 12539: 10013: 6565: 4663: 8114:- the Manual of Style doesn't allow or recommend confusing formats such as 03/04/2009, so there should be no confusion for human readers. Only logged-in editors with preferences set are likely to be confused - or cause confusion - because they won't see what a passing reader does. 6608: 13948: 13801:- contrary to the suggestions above - be of benefit to unregistered editors"; nothing said to date has changed that. It may well be that, as a community, we decide that unregistered readers see date as unformatted - that, then, will be our choice. My point is that autoformatting 11312: 10606: 1137:. Knowledge should be written for the readers, and providing logged in users with a consistent display of dates enhances their experience without detracting from the information provided to a non-logged in user as they would still see consistent formatting within an article. -- 9925: 4852: 13362: 12226:(yet). As not wanting logged-in editors to see different content than unlogged in users, one might argue that it's a reason contrary to policy as defined by the developers. We would need to remove the gadgets and javascript customization. I'll post more on the talk page. — 7724:(1) There is no problem to be solved here (2) We have too much intimidating markup already for new users to handle, and {{#formatdate|March 11, 2009}} is just unacceptable. (3) editors shouldn't be seeing something different from what the vast majority of the readers will see. 1407:. Autoformatting is a good thing, especially because most editors refuse to write dates in the format I find easiest to decode. With autoformatting all can be happy at the same time. Seriously, who could object to that? Most of the "oppose" votes here seem to argue against the 11433:; sure, it might need a bit of human attention to get everything marked up, but I see nothing in there that would cause any trouble for a well-written formatter; or is the whole of your concern there that someone would have to do a little bit of formatting work? As for those " 7134:. In the English-speaking world outside the United States there is no national preference for formatting one way or another - it's just a matter of personal style or of an individual publication's style guide. Are English-speaking people in the United Kingdom confused because 6093: 3847: 14524: 3040: 13738:- contrary to the suggestions above - be of benefit to unregistered editors: anonymous IPs with en-us in their HTTP header won't get DD MMM YYYY dates, for example, and only Times-readers are disappointed when their en-gb header results in them avoiding MMM DD, YYYY dates. 10591: 11059:, so opposing on that basis is rather … misguided. And edit wars would occur just as often in the absence of a magic word with autoformatting, but they'd be worse because the warriors would be messing with dates all over the article (and possibly missing some each time). 170:. Agree with Anomie, I think much of the issue would be fixed simply by setting a different default (currently the default is to not format it all, resulting in inconsistency) that would be seen by anons and new users. I believe it would be a simple configuration change. 13376: 12034: 1858: 76: 4578:. The "pro" arguments are not convincing at all, but the "contra" arguments describe very real problems. All the disadvantages just to give a few people the option to display an article with US spelling in UK date format or vice versa? This is obvious feature bloat. -- 1979:- I liked the ability to have the date fit your personal preference before it was depreciated, and set up all the content I wrote as such; plus, of course, what's the point in having the preference option to change it if the articles themselves can't be changed by it? 12069:. In other words, I'd support autoformatting as a method for producing consistency within articles, but I oppose autoformatting as a way to enforce consistency throughout the encyclopedia, or as a way to make dates appear consistent to a small minority of readers. — 12011: 2381: 6392: 4204:. I feel that Linked dates would be good as it would help avoid conflicts as when Tropical cyclones transfer basins it causes headaches for WPTC members. Also i feel that if we are meant to link to "relevent articles" then why shouldnt we link to the date articles? 10109: 12908:"?). Please re-establish the demo page if you really have got it going, otherwise you'll have to understand why I'm entitled to treat your claims above with a healthy dose of scepticism. To other voting parties, please note that what is proposed is far more than " 9857: 6282:. Auto-formatting is a "solution" looking for a problem. It's not even a good solution as it cannot address every date format currently used on WP; and there is no indication that a technical solution can even be found for all the issues raised during the debate. 1736: 12288:(say YYYY-MM-DD or #dYYYY-MM-DD) and wikignomes will make short work of the rest. Default presentation for those who haven't set it (maybe with a bit of fancy footwork detecting where they are accessing from to feed them American or ISO format by default). Doing 10409: 702: 12874: 5197:. I do understand the difference between autoformatting and linking. I can see many problems resulting from autoformatting. Anyone who has cursed at MS Word (as I do when using someone else's machine) should oppose an extension of nannydom. (I use OpenOffice.) 1021: 12937:", there is no need to be so dictatorial, as very often an article will lend itself to "DD MMM YYYY", in which case, that can simply be the format of choice for the page in question. Is it that much of a worry to see dates in the "DD MMM YYYY" format in the 11029: 8065: 13925: 13465: 10359: 11723: 12749: 10214: 5443: 5231: 2917:, but "recognising both" is neither the issue nor the problem. The problem is the ambiguity. c) Let the machine do the work. d) If it is available, use is optional (not obligatory). If it is not available ... e) Make it as simple as possible. f) etc. 438:. Using this feature is hardly a burden on editors (I use it all the time for dates I add), and is a handy way to resolve perpetual US vs UK date format edit warring. Strongly opposed to the unilateral delinking campaigns by bots and other editors. -- 4384: 192: 13018: 8667:) 04:27, 6 April 2009 (UTC) Each month Knowledge has about 56 million unique viewers. There are only 180 thousand Wikipedians that set a data preference so at best it is 1 out of 300 viewers (0.3 %) that will benefit from date autoformatting. -- 11406: 3763:!). In my eyes, date autoformatting is the only way out of this limbo. For IP readers I am convinced that a technical solution can be found that displays "January 14, 2006" for IP's in North America and "14 January 2006" for IP's elsewhere. For 1919: 11111: 5512: 11910: 10515:. Just looked at the talk page and seen all the inane arguments over what consensus is. Please add my vote to whichever side gets the biggest pile in the hope it settles this once and for all and all parties accept it with good grace. 13130:, there's a standard, but written textually then "1st February" or "February 1st" are pretty much interchangeable to a British reader, and I'll often use the two in the same piece of writing, or use one one day and the other the next. 11393: 5756: 4359: 2284: 9501: 9197: 13647:, and that we don't want that. Leaving aside whether we do want that (I don't), this argument misses another possibility - the ability to autoformat dates into ISO format. Very few human readers would want that (I would, but I'm a 1875: 14362:§ “1. APPLICABILITY AND DEFINITIONS: . . . A "Modified Version" of the Document means any work containing the Document or a portion of it, either copied verbatim, or with modifications and/or translated into another language. . . . 12832: 10251: 3268: 2505:, I think we should try to be more inclusive of a variety of date formats. Also, this makes it easy to switch between, for example, linked dates or unlinked dates. A lot of the changes could be made with AutoWikiBrowser / bots. 1211: 759:- While I recognize that virtually all English speakers recognize a date in any common format, date formatting is an issue that rarely occurs to editors, and it does look sloppy to have various different formats in one article. -- 13530: 4670:), write it out in fixed text, and be done with it. Jumping through all these hoops just so a handful of editors can be spared the shock of seeing a date format they disapprove of is something they will survive; I guarantee it. 2777:; to me this is a common-sense feature that an online encyclopedia ought to support, and the extra complexity required is not that much - if complexity had been a concern since the beginning WP would never have been created. 8343: 121:. I support partially per Anomie, but also because marking up dates with metadata lets us do interesting things that we can not do otherwise. Too many of the arguments against autoformating are actually against datelinking. 13826: 7079:. It's a tiny detail that loads us thousands of links. Moreover, I think it's weird we demand US oriented articles to be written in US spelling and we allow date autoformating. Date format should apply with the spelling. -- 2655:— Dates should be formatted automatically by the server as the page is assembled for the viewer. Editors shouldn't have to do anything to accomplish this—just type the date consistently throughout an article and it's done. 455:. The environment may be mixed but Knowledge is a single unified project. I can live with reading mis-matched date formatting, even if on the same article, but it would be better if all of Knowledge adheared to a standard. 7707: 5876:. Better to embrace the international diversities than use the User prefs to snub them. One should become accustomed to seeing the differences just like you would at your bookshelf. That is part of the learning experience. 4480: 3750: 12904:) Sorry UC_Bill, but you can't have it both ways. You removed the demo page that could have shown the community how date ranges (and hopefully date slashes) would have worked, and then you claim the programming is easy (" 5657:, this seems to be creating more work and problems with very little benefit. We have some amazing programmers who can help us through any perceived problems. Our readers deserve better articles and we really have spent a 3076:-- It always annoys me that the ~~~~ syntax doesn't autoformat, as it makes it harder to keep the dates and times visually in sync with the history. That's why I always used UTC and yyyy-mm-dd format in my preferences. -- 12326: 10903: 2432:, only because of the metadata argument. If we unmark dates, we're losing information. Recovering that information, by doing regexp searches or whatever, may be frequently possible, but why give ourselves the hassle? -- 12203: 13548: 4248: 233: 4712:: there is no need for autoformatting. As already mentioned, it enhances the differences between the registered and unregistered uses, masking any potential inconsistencies. Every article should be consistent, using 1004:. I think the autoformatting is good but if there is a problem with the software allowing users to choose which way they want to see the date displayed then the developers should fix it so we can stop voting on it-- 1252: 6018: 3905: 9767: 8215: 7339:. Cluttering up pages with irrelevant links serves no purpose. I know that when I was a new user, I often clicked on these date links expecting some relevant information, and was always disappointed to find none. 6920:. Most readers aren't logged in, and the different date formats are easy to understand anyway. In addition, anything that reduces the sea of blue in articles is welcome. This is a solution looking for a problem. 3674:- The option to choose how dates are displayed is an important one- sure, users of both systems can recognize the other, but why should they have to do so? It makes it easier all 'round and prevents edit wars. -- 2636: 10383: 7890: 5625: 1953:" Okay...so what? We already have these problems, but by standardizing dates, we allow such mass changes Knowledge-wide to be implemented with a single change to a single template instead of millions of changes. 733: 12819: 11321: 6588:. In fact, for years I wasn't even aware of the autoformat feature and was constantly irritated at these superfluous links. They still seem unprofessional to me, just like you wouldn't link the word "born" in " 6121: 2954:. The syntax {{date|...}} would not be that difficult to understand, and you could find documentation at Template:Date. In articles, special syntax using hashes or square brackets would be more of a mystery. 9041: 5404: 5369: 4987: 376: 11152: 11075: 10785: 13390: 11933: 10228: 6652: 2151: 804: 11718:" leads me to believe that we are talking about different things (and your disagreement probably indicates you have not been following the debate over the previous number of months). The point about coding 4018:, allows personal choice with minimal issues. (No, "I can't read the wikitext" is not a valid complaint, as it is already unreadable thanks to the pervasiveness of citation templates and parser functions.) 3540: 3085: 715: 12251: 10185: 6176: 5982: 13458:. Why are human editors concerned with this question? Why can't we make the server search for dates in the text and then reformat them for the viewer based on their preference? The server already changes 11861: 3380: 3298: 2416: 1631: 1604: 10601: 10369: 9223: 8893: 8470: 10659: 10586: 10492: 10403: 10278: 10246: 8751: 4322: 4070: 2942: 1727: 1541: 13288: 10542: 9255: 8930: 8461:- Anything that requires digging through preference options will only be used by a tiny handful of users. Furthermore, the vast majority of our users aren't even registered. Much work, little benefit. 6222:. There is no ambiguity in understanding the two formats allowed. A lot of effort for a purely cosmetic issue. Same issue as regional spelling differences and should be treated exactly the same way. -- 5340: 4196: 3510: 1129: 14184: 13535:. Of course, editors or those who look after particular projects might choose to run a bot to automate "upgrades" to use the new autofomatting, but it should not be the default behavior of the server. 13126: 11205: 9718:- Same reasons as I noted last time, auto-formatting dates often makes for sloppy looking articles when you consider the need for date spans. Thus, we should format dates based on the topic just like 9202: 8972: 7481: 6989: 6557: 5994: 5913: 3738: 2623: 1878:" Recognizing that there are different formats is nothing special. The problem is that each use different standards than each other ans Knowledge is a conglomeration of all these national preferences. 1420: 1269: 1035: 14068:"If you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly or redistributed for profit by others, do not submit it." No mention of "machines" being excluded from the aforementioned editing is there? -- 10629: 10305: 10209: 10166: 9982: 9935: 9845: 5748: 5411: 4972: 4409: 3919: 3068: 14324: 12486: 12464:- can register an account, and if they choose to use that account to read only, so be it. Accounts can be useful to readers who wish to use the gadgets, the watchlist, different skins, and so on. -- 10472: 10335: 10195: 10139: 9777: 8885: 8436: 8038: 6383: 5868: 5118: 4753: 3977: 3425: 3408: 3312: 2480: 2441: 2336: 2276: 2260: 2081: 1489: 1457: 1163: 162: 13862: 13770: 13752: 13707: 10180: 9996: 9673: 9458: 8865: 8186: 8053: 7801: 7584: 7464: 6193: 5898: 5817: 4729: 4531: 4376: 3704: 3687: 3451: 2701: 2560: 1575: 1558: 707: 471: 410: 221: 10432: 10418: 9664: 9326: 8853: 8734: 8717: 8700: 7983: 7616:- There's really no need for it. 2 April or April 2, not all that different than the difference between color and colour. Simple difference depending on your dialect. Not a big deal in my view. -- 7608: 7567: 7515: 7242: 7192: 7088: 6972: 6712: 6517: 6480: 6274: 5782:). This understood, I agree with Brion that it doesn't need to be done and that we tend to make things harder than they need to be on WP. I see benefits, but the cons certainly outweigh the pros. 5766: 5716: 5596: 5282: 4895: 4485: 4045: 3657: 3226: 3212: 2664: 2577: 2526: 2424: 2311: 2067: 1744: 1399: 1344: 1290: 1111: 1094: 1058: 768: 633: 246: 10321: 9710: 9361: 9016: 8504: 8408: 8366: 8335: 8207: 7900: 7784: 7208: 6945: 6525:: There's no problem that this solves. If dates must be in a certain format, they can be treated similar to British vs. American English: a given format should be used where it is reasonable. 6445: 6113: 5617: 5135: 4570: 4430: 4213: 4144: 3839: 3609: 3346: 3032: 2825: 2684: 2497: 2175: 1988: 1752: 1693: 1440: 1235: 1203: 1180: 996: 975: 751: 430: 113: 12714: 10614: 10572: 10374: 9952: 9736: 9656: 9441: 9192: 9133: 8807: 8790: 8021: 7942: 7750: 7733: 7681: 7498: 6928: 6912: 6689: 6462: 6404: 6249: 6136: 5632: 5478: 5379: 5314: 5223: 5067: 5050: 4587: 4451: 4304: 3801: 3524: 3468: 3273: 3191: 2842: 2735: 2718: 2606: 2543: 2408: 2391: 2373: 2356: 2243: 2050: 1930:" This isn't too complex and a bot could implement it without much trouble and would prevent further problems. The Chief Technical Officer Brion Vibber's opinions are his own and this is less a 1831: 1619: 937: 650: 571: 488: 393: 202: 12165: 9570: 9424: 9090: 8676: 8651: 8634: 8617: 8276: 8225: 7882: 7852: 7818: 7716: 7664: 7399: 7348: 7105: 7020: 6895: 6878: 6819: 6794: 6751: 6665: 6424: 6341: 5739: 5460: 5396: 5081: 4999: 4950: 4827: 4654: 4010: 3897: 3818: 3363: 3328: 3260: 3243: 3203: 2902: 2881: 2872: 2803: 2786: 2645: 2221: 2187: 2033: 1710: 1524: 1360: 836: 690: 602: 585: 184: 11793: 10145: 10099: 9917: 9879: 9811: 9377: 9272: 8921: 8836: 8586: 8562: 8539: 8487: 8391: 8347: 8161: 8092: 7643: 7625: 7420: 7327: 7310: 7293: 7259: 7225: 7047: 7003: 6777: 6733: 6716: 6576: 6358: 6010: 5677: 5521: 5189: 4879: 4843: 4785: 4632: 4608: 4519: 4340: 4235: 4161: 4123: 4080: 4062: 3936: 3666: 3649: 3626: 3290: 3015: 2752: 2135: 2004: 1969: 1761: 1641: 1472: 1013: 954: 919: 821: 673: 526: 265: 13553: 10846: 9510: 9411: 9344: 9238: 8999: 8951: 8934: 8904: 8819: 8773: 8293: 8242: 8075: 8000: 7532: 7122: 7071: 7059: 6844: 6053: 6023: 5562: 5503: 5434: 5361: 5344: 5206: 5101: 5033: 4498: 4276: 4179: 4097: 4025: 3993: 3575: 3050: 2981: 2926: 2855: 2509: 2204: 2143:, Getting the implementation right is important, but I see very little downside to having more meta data and having format customized content. The objections appear to me to be oriented into 1894: 1778: 1592: 1307: 889: 785: 725: 619: 509: 142: 130: 92: 14033: 10062: 9966: 9828: 9693: 9626: 9528: 9403: 9312: 9295: 9072: 8123: 7869: 7767: 7698: 6861: 6324: 6307: 6295: 5930: 5797: 5698: 5544: 5331: 5250: 4933: 4683: 4559: 3879: 3784: 2998: 2108: 1850: 1676: 1507: 322: 12193: 9900: 9587: 9492: 9475: 9055: 8453: 7966: 7916: 7835: 7276: 6704: 6639: 6622: 6471: 6214: 6153: 6081: 5839: 5649: 5297: 5016: 4916: 4704: 3957: 3857: 2963: 2769: 1327: 1146: 543: 447: 362: 339: 14359:“§ 0. PREAMBLE: . . . this License preserves for the author and publisher a way to get credit for their work, while not being considered responsible for modifications made by others. . . . 12389: 11303: 11269: 10825: 9604: 9545: 9175: 9106: 8144: 7381: 6534: 6226: 6085: 5579: 4861: 4468: 3721: 3554: 1372: 284: 10133: 9794: 9158: 8521: 8259: 6498: 5959: 5262: 5172: 14409: 13731:; the date-format then used is based on the usual date-format for the locale - no second-guessing whether the unregistered editor is a Times reader or a regular en-gb DD MMM YYYY person. 12767: 12728: 11248: 10790: 10742: 10720: 7443: 3518:; although as an editor I don't really care one way or the other, as a reader it's simply easier and more accessible to see dates consistently presented in the format I'm accustomed to. 63: 13117: 13102: 13047: 12318: 11183: 10806: 10761: 7038:, I guess. But if no other solution can be developed, then the lure of "automated time lines" generation is enough to make me reconsider in the future. Any demos available for that? -- 6126: 928: 12884: 12849: 12798: 11986: 11958: 11920: 11333: 10894: 4346: 13792: 13562: 13449: 13349: 13139: 12184: 12139: 10780: 10556: 5469: 2116:, but not because I think autoformatting itself is the biggest problem to be solved, but because I think that dates should be captured in appropriate metadata and microformats. Date 401: 13517: 13495: 12426: 12352: 12335: 3251:. Auto-formatting would help to remove the consistency issues that plague a lot of current articles. It would also be nice to allow users to format as they prefer for convenience. 14620: 14458: 14096: 13028: 13009: 12976: 12445: 12303: 12233: 12213: 11975: 5322:. While not having a strong or informed opinion either way, the idea does not stike me as a good one. Adds complexity where none is needed and seems to invent a problem and fix it. 4173: 14270: 13582: 12524: 12454: 12273: 12120: 11038: 11024: 10965: 10704: 10524: 4691:. If Knowledge readers are smart enough to handle "colour" vs "color" and "aluminium" vs "aluminum", they can handle "30 March" vs "March 30". On that premise, I would apply the 3591:) has a majority agreeing that only neccesary dates are linked, if we don't pass this, the dates won't be automatically formatted. So I support the passing of this autoformatting! 3433: 347:. Before autoformatting was introduced, there were lengthy rows about how to format dates. This seems recently to have come back, just as some started delinking dates. -- User:Docu 14167: 13932: 12084: 11144: 6432: 4001:. The day someone decided that date should be delinked is the day someone created a huge headache for WPTC. We still can't decide because our articles cover the oceans, not land. 848: 214: 13400: 13332: 11498: 11106: 7407:—Not a benefit that editors see date formats that vary from that which the general reader sees. We are all flexible enough to recognize and understand dates in various formats. — 7067:. It has benefited maybe a few thousand users at the expense of thousands (millions?) of man-hours and server resources. Autoformatting is, in simple terms, coo coo bananas. --- 3281: 13624: 13611: 13315: 13225: 12495: 12481: 11066: 10926: 10686: 6071: 6033: 5863: 2120: 1841:- I'm from Australia and prefer to see dates in the DMY format. If there's a way to autoformat all dates according to each user's preferences, then I think that's a great idea. 12646: 12029: 11214: 11200: 10752:? Perhaps you are confused and think that this is about autoformatting without markup? Then read above under "What is date autoformatting?" It is not presented as an option. -- 10463: 6349:: It looks like a solution in search of a problem. There is a significant penalty in terms of making the markup more complicated and intimidating to new users. Keep it simple. 11869: 11731: 11605: 11465: 11444: 11419: 11384: 11355: 11006: 10998:" is a whopper in terms of slowing down the process. Anyhow, doesn't change the basic point that bot-removal of date formatting is trivial (to get back to the original post). 10978: 10943: 9037:, for reasons pointed out by Jimp in vote (or if you prefer "!vote") circa 146 above. Of course yet more work could go into perfecting a context-sensitive algorithm, and this 6062: 5553: 4442:. Autoformatting was a failed effort at a technical fix to a behavioral problem, and it faces irresoluble grammatical difficulties about whether a comma comes after the date. 3775: 13962: 11167: 11088: 9098: 1792: 13916: 12578:"Before autoformatting was introduced, there were lengthy rows about how to format dates. This seems recently to have come back, just as some started delinking dates." from 12048: 11129: 7741: 6453: 5906:. Autoformatting, even if it could be made to work properly, offers very little advantage but has very significant disadvantages, as others have drawn attention to above. -- 3354:- I don't care greatly about this debate, but I don't have any problem with the general concept of autoformatting. The benefits seem pretty obvious, the costs much less so. 2939: 2251: 10913: 7523:- What next, the "autospell extension" that changes aluminium to aluminum or lift to elevator based on the users preferences? Needless bureaucracy where none is required. 13716:, not that both formats are equally acceptable. The Times may use MMM DD, YYYY but that doesn't mean that that format is equally acceptable within the Times' constituency. 10935: 8326: 6394: 10059: 13691: 13662: 12569: 11257: 7117:, 21:29, 31 March 2009 (UTC) Update, to an editor's request, and to make myself clear: I'm opposed to any kind of markup for the sole purpose of date auto-formatting. — 6806: 4924:: too much monkey business. dates should be entered in a consistent format throughout articles, and logged-in editors should see the same thing unlogged-in readers see. 4131: 3130:. I believe this concern, as described, is not an issue because an individual user, during any given session of being logged in or not, would see a consistent date style 7233:— Autoformatting is as onerous as date linking, so far as the editor is concerned. With my typing skills, it would amount to just another opportunity to make mistakes. 10171: 7991:- We should not manipulate article text to the animosities of certain user groups, especially when there is absolutely no problem with understanding any date variant. 6903: 14003: 13169:. Such commercial websites may not be reliable indicators for date format anyway as these can sometimes be skewed by software defaults, often biased towards US usage. 9853: 3767:, the system has to be simple to use and easy to figure out for newbies by looking at existing examples. My preference would be a simple template system based on the 1718: 13258: 14380:“I. Preserve the section Entitled "History", . . . and add to it an item stating at least the title, year, new authors, and publisher of the Modified Version . . .” 12309: 10922: 6852: 3371:. Autoformatting is an effective way to localize dates in a format the user is most familiar with, and would prevent inconsistency in date formats across articles. 10502: 10047:. From those 80 million hits, of which only a minute fraction are marked up, it should be obvious that one does not need to markup a date to find references to it. 10032: 9246: 6486: 6264: 1533: 12959: 12684: 6936:. What the Statement Against says - specifically, there is no problem to solve. Furthermore the solution is arduous for new editors, and potentially error-prone. 3948:(proleptic) gregorian dates as input parameter to the #formatdate since this is the International standard nearly every country has adopted (even the US and EU). 1684: 13986: 2269: 13199: 9701: 9617: 5310: 2615: 13475: 10665: 10620: 9433: 6044: 14082: 13432: 13306: 7908:. I suspect most readers don't care whether an article says April 2 or 2 April; the order is trivial enough not to warrant the additional coding complexity. 2161: 13673: 4599:, not editors, therefore most features should be designed for them. Datelinking devalues useful links. It also necessitates useless extra work for editors. 13813: 12607: 12595:"Also, autoformatting helps prevent edit warring" A an over-used argument with little evidence provided. Actually, these edit wars are few and far between. 8170: 4666:. Now we’re at it a fourth time. No, autformatting is not desirable. Nor is it necessary. Just chose the format most appropriate for the article (based on 4489: 3814: 2322: 1610: 12953: 12931: 12920: 12840: 6258: 3162: 1806: 104: 14662: 13893: 12632: 10200: 4624: 12691:{{cite...}} came about this way, and is probably more difficult for unregistered users to edit and breaks up the text far more than this proposal. |→ 8119: 1653: 1100: 8844: 3120:. This is just a summary of the three points in favor; moreover, I found the concept to be worthy of thought before deciding, so was not obvious to me 1298: 13211: 13109: 13039: 12659: 11258: 11095: 10883: 10753: 5306: 4941:. This seems like a lower priority than spelling autoformatting ({{#formatword|color|colour}}), and would make the edit boxes just as hard to read.-- 4579: 3137:. I do not see this argument put forward in the statements in favor of the concept, although it is referenced in some of the comments by those voting 1213: 419: 14202: 7592:- There's no real problem to fix; most people can understand both forms of dates. It essentially seems like a lot of work for next to no real gain. 13974: 8643: 6760: 138:. I set my date preference to display dates in U.S. format, so I expect dates to display as such. Also, autoformatting helps prevent edit warring. 13851: 13146: 12822:"hm, it says formatdate, wonder what that means ... ah, flash of brilliance, it probably is something about formatting the date that comes after." 12200: 9025: 8625: 5447: 3105: 593:. I'm a user of this – ISO dates for me, please – and I'll miss it if it goes. The statement against does nothing to make me think otherwise. — 13835:. My preference is for YYYY-MM-DD, and I'd like a system where that preference can be catered for. My preference in no way affects my ability to 5181: 4243: 3810: 2864: 1945:" All seems to be concerned with the linking ability of the text which used to be the norm. This is not the case here and is completely off topic 13162: 11430: 11403: 10438: 9233: 7439: 6759:. Just because we can do something, doesn't mean we should, or that we need to. The format of a date in an article is not a significant issue. 5779: 5492: 1957: 1827: 8495: 5305:. What matters the most is internal consistency in articles (as in the language question), and autoformatting is not needed for this purpose. 418: 10795: 9908: 9304: 9114: 4259:, YMD) are excluded by policy, but could be retrieved with autoformatting. Most of the capability is already implemented in Wikimedia - it's 13810: 13345: 7651:- Wikitext syntax should be kept as simple as possible to encourage contributions by new users. Complicating syntax for the sole benefit of 4835:- The readers should see the same thing a logged in editor sees, and we shouldn't have to jump through a million hoops to make that happen. 14371:“A. Use in the Title Page (and on the covers, if any) a title distinct from that of the Document, and from those of previous versions . . . 13979: 13975: 13858: 13748: 13687: 13658: 12565: 9280: 5828:, as I think I saw somewhere, I'll be neutral, as long as IP users see something easy on the eye, be it tailored to their location or not. 3416: 800: 14674: 12598: 945: 13014: 5270: 10345: 10080: 7455: 3588: 17: 12218: 10026:#2 Proponents for date formatting allege that "date markup has been identified" (?) "as central to the development of new features". 7435: 7216:. Formatting of dates adds nothing to any article. We should prohibit wikilinking dates. This proposal moves in the other direction. 6785: 5109: 13108: 8781: 4267: 3640: 11949: 11294: 11239: 6670: 4400: 1912: 1248: 58: 11971: 11156: 3320: 3097: 353:. Autoformatting makes sense for the reader. I'd probably have voted against if the link-free option were not available, though. 12836: 11437:", either we're talking about different people or our views are so opposed that we will never reach an agreement on the matter. 7113:. We should stop date linking for the sake of auto-formatting. There may be other, less intrusive, ways to auto-format dates. — 5007: 12384: 10224: 8967: 6566: 3771: 13178: 12372:. See the "!vote" terminology people are using? That's why. Also, I don't agree with your comparison of this present issue to 10423: 8233: 2452: 1600:. It shouldn't be beyond the wit of man to allow date auto-formatting. Also, any opposition with rationale given against date 14563: 14374:“B. List on the Title Page, as authors, one or more persons or entities responsible for authorship of the modifications . . . 13205: 10817: 8827: 4964: 4264: 1031: 12675: 9415:- only editors with negative experiences and ongoing frustrations would be aware of it a month or so after the unvieling. -- 6234:- There's no reason why general readers should see something different than a few logged-in users who have preferences set. 5990:. Lots of extra work for everyone for a trivial benefit for a tiny minority. Let's get back to improving the encyclopedia. — 5058:. Autoformatting forces mass medication down the throats of healthy people, just because a few people don't like to sneeze. 4816: 987:. Ideally choosable via (in order of priority) (i) user option (ii) article option (iii) site-wide default & others. 812:. I agree with flag's point above. It's much faster for me to see the dates in a way that I see everyday and can recognize. 8659:- Only a small subset of Knowledge readers will benefit from auto formatting and the complex syntax deters new editors. -- 8429: 8030: 6697: 6508: 8181: 7793: 7165: 4984: 4105: 3974: 2331: 1244: 12745: 12156: 11317:. Then user preferences override the default for that user. This has been said time and time again, which is why can't 10365: 10121: 7550: 6270: 1938: 13806: 7452: 6366: 4812: 14045: 12553: 12079: 10271: 7177: 6108: 1390: 1287: 1054: 13154: 8008:. I never really saw any advantage in autoformatting, and the implementation (so far) has done more harm than good. 2692:. To me the advantages of autoformatting are obvious. Updating existing pages will gladly be taken care of by bots. 1192: 13151: 12592:); can someone point me to these length rows on date formatting? I haven't seen any. Not referring to linking here. 11266: 11103: 10891: 10879: 9943:; too much effort for too little return. Make it truly automatic (no special formatting required) or forget it. -- 8013: 7935: 7554: 6681: 6132: 3944: 3603: 3388:. There is too much inconsistency in Knowledge. I support any measure that increases consistency across articles. 1231: 427: 384:. With the understanding that the autoformat feature prevented debates and potential conflicts over date format. -- 28: 12558:"2/3/09" and hoping that whoever cleans up after them magically knows whether the date is DD/MM or MM/DD. Cheers, 10478: 9681: 8046:. Several reasons given strike me as sensible, particularly the issue of IP users not seeing the formatted date. 6605: 2488:. Dates are not text. Leaving it to heuristics (or humans!) to figure out what date was "meant" is a Bad Thing. -- 10835: 10075: 6169: 5975: 5734: 4649: 3081: 2910:. a) Autoformating should be available as a funtionality separate to and independent from date linking. b) Maybe 2352: 1066:, tho MediaWiki automatically formatting dates with extra markup would be better, with nowiki for exceptions. -- 14491: 10007:#1 Proponents for date formatting allege that date-formatting is necessary to extract meta-data. That is false. 4811:'s broadcasting to users who have opposed on the grounds that "autoformatting can be fixed for anonymous users". 3634: 1448:. Autoformatting is neutral in appearance, while being adaptive to users who do want a preference in date style. 14023: 13999: 13601: 12161: 10456: 10379: 10299: 9874: 8466: 7809:. It's not worth the required effort. Makes editing harder, with at most doubtful benefit to general readers. − 7386: 6415: 6303: 4981: 4776: 3445: 2024: 479:. Formatting for dates is minor, but it is very important to have a standard format across the whole project.-- 12529: 12197:, but both Oppose #3 and Oppose #73 appear cognizant that linking and autoformatting are two different issues. 10970: 10056:#4 Proponents have alleged that (server-side) "ate autoformatting allows greater consistency". This is false. 10044: 10040:#3 Proponents for date formatting presuppose that automation depends on dates being marked up. This is false. 6584: 6161: 3336: 14377:“E. Add an appropriate copyright notice for your modifications adjacent to the other copyright notices. . . . 9217: 8610: 6980:- just solving problems that don't exist. We have plenty of real problems to solve and articles to expand. 4107: 3376: 2131: 909: 371: 13643: 13150: 11457:"—rather it is looking increasingly likely that it is impossible to specify the problem in the first place. 10671: 3532:. The very fact that there are people who prefer non-North American date formats (such as Wikipeterproject) 13591: 9634:, but I really think a proper consensus should be made as to which date format we use in prose, refs, etc. 9385: 9211: 8747: 8316: 8301:- No, No, a thousand times No! Autofotamting is to be avoided at all costs. Also its evil and it must die! 6685: 5724: 5245: 4620: 4553: 3491: 2854: 1769: 14222: 10035: 5352: 1480: 1071: 13852: 13742: 13681: 13652: 12624: 12559: 12543: 12473: 12265: 12021: 11192: 11121: 10547: 10257: 9251: 7477: 7131: 5154: 4318: 1723: 1701: 1537: 963: 794: 314: 78: 11055: 8742:- No reason why date format cannot be done in the same way as spelling and other regional differences. 4667: 4641:, I don't really see this as needed, I'm not convinced there's a problem that needs this as a solution. 3965: 3756: 3536: 12589: 11942: 11287: 11232: 10220: 7377: 6985: 6802: 6550: 6162: 5968: 5910: 4393: 4192: 3506: 3077: 2028: 1125: 12785: 8284:—Autoformatting Is For Markup Lovers. The sane (and productive) expend their energy much more wisely.— 13995: 13943: 12845: 12763: 12680: 12177: 12157: 11402:" I'll assume that you have understood that, and are in favour of it. Please consider a page such as 10820: 10375: 10068: 9977: 9931: 9841: 8462: 5745: 5406: 4967: 4870:: Marking up millions of articles for the benefit of few editors is definitely not worth the effort . 3970: 3734: 2619: 1416: 1265: 1027: 913: 534:- the benefit gained from consistency across articles outweigh the potential problems in my opinion. 43: 11597:"—this is wandering from the original point (i.e. I didn't mention bots). Please re-read my points. 10256: 9744:“Customizing the interface” is a misleading red herring – your operating system's preferences don't 7672:- I read very easily any date in any format and think that Date formatting is just unnessisary work 4438:. If this issue were to arise now, we would solve it by permitting both formats, along the lines of 4260: 2971:. Most definitely support it in principle and the newer methods for date format is well on its way. 2863:. It would be nice to have this facility available. If you don't like it, then just don't use it. -- 1914:" Another has done so for far more articles than that and now his actions have placed him at ArbCom. 14224: 13651:) but it could be extremely useful to automated parsers, particularly in, say, infoboxes. Cheers, 13508: 12615: 10087: 9773: 9483: 9212: 8879: 8424: 8034: 6831:. I was concerned about the "metadata" argument, but I think it is properly answered above in the 6381: 5857: 5604:, way too much complexity for most users, and zero benefit for the vast majority of our readers. -- 5114: 4744: 3915: 3372: 3064: 500:! I also support measures to ensure that dates are displayed consistently to unregistered users. - 12460: 7356:—Anderson above mentions "irresoluble grammatical difficulties", here's another. Take the phrase 2632: 10843: 10787: 9992: 9669: 9454: 8743: 8175: 8050: 7797: 7580: 7460: 6189: 5892: 5834: 5812: 4725: 4528: 3421: 3308: 2551:- "This is a no-brainer. Of course readers should generally see dates in their favorite format." 2476: 2437: 2327: 2274: 2256: 1996:- This is a no-brainer. Of course readers should generally see dates in their favorite format. -- 1485: 1453: 1159: 157: 14128: 13532: 13186: 12057: 11224: 4995: 4247: 3985:. Why allow an editor to set a "date and preference" in the their profile, and then ignore it? 1067: 13766: 13703: 13098: 13024: 12972: 12314: 12230: 12181: 10804: 10717: 10597: 10115: 9322: 9247: 8849: 8730: 8713: 8708:- Lack of impact/beneficiaries compared to amount of work to implement. Remember cost/benefit. 7979: 7602: 7546: 7511: 7473: 7238: 7188: 7084: 6966: 6513: 6494: 6476: 5762: 5712: 5592: 5278: 4893: 4314: 3700: 3679: 3441: 2697: 2556: 1719: 1571: 1554: 704: 461: 406: 218: 13067: 9519: 8100:-- We don't have nor want automatic British/American English spelling. This is analogous. -- 7055:- metadata is important, but this is not the way to do it. Solution in search of a problem. – 5089: 2041: 13513: 13471: 12378: 12135: 12075: 11935: 11280: 11225: 11140: 11019: 10960: 10738: 10731: 10700: 10655: 10582: 10488: 10399: 10266: 10242: 10216: 9706: 9392: 9357: 9012: 8961: 8512: 8500: 8404: 8331: 8201: 7896: 7780: 7205: 6981: 6941: 6545: 6441: 6104: 5991: 5907: 5806: 5612: 5131: 4426: 4386: 4188: 4040: 3502: 3222: 3208: 2660: 2573: 2522: 2421: 2099: 2063: 1741: 1388: 1340: 1283: 1121: 1107: 1088: 1048: 764: 629: 567: 241: 14009: 13805: 13297: 13293: 10233: 10004:. No benefit (and only grief) for the wiki. Moreover, the pro arguments are not convincing. 9206: 2009: 13722: 13677: 13428: 13396: 13302: 13113: 13043: 12841: 12759: 12676: 11262: 11099: 10887: 10873: 10813: 10777: 10757: 10552: 10538: 10452: 10444: 9972: 9947: 9927: 9837: 9731: 9646: 9438: 9188: 9124: 8803: 8786: 8399:- There is no real point, it causes problems, and it is not worth the effort and disputes. 8304: 8105: 7932: 7746: 7729: 7677: 7494: 6908: 6677: 6458: 6401: 6243: 5474: 5375: 5221: 5063: 5046: 4960: 4818: 4583: 4447: 4209: 4140: 3832: 3730: 3479: 3343: 3028: 2493: 2171: 1984: 1689: 1606: 1433: 1412: 1261: 1222: 1198: 1176: 1023: 992: 971: 737: 423: 109: 1243:. I'd rather have the possibility to choose the date format that I'm most familiar with.-- 8: 14616: 14454: 14325: 14266: 13558: 13263: 13255: 13063: 12964: 12517: 12491: 12450: 12422: 12369: 12348: 12343: 12331: 12219: 12116: 11494: 10611: 9769: 9564: 9420: 9086: 8874: 8672: 8664: 8647: 8630: 8605: 8478: 8419: 8272: 8221: 7848: 7814: 7712: 7660: 7395: 7344: 7101: 7016: 6891: 6874: 6815: 6790: 6747: 6420: 6367: 6337: 5851: 5730: 5456: 5392: 5110: 5077: 4946: 4823: 4798: 4735: 4647: 4297: 3911: 3797: 3464: 3187: 3180:. I was most influenced in this regard by the referenced statement from the WikiMedia CTO 3060: 2838: 2731: 2714: 2598: 2539: 2404: 2387: 2369: 2346: 2237: 2046: 1615: 933: 646: 484: 389: 230: 198: 82: 13319: 12535: 10029: 1154:. I'd prefer to have autoformatting without autolinking, but I'll take it either way. 151: 14163: 14092: 14027: 13788: 13605: 13491: 13174: 13135: 12724: 12642: 12603: 11798: 11660: 11547: 11480: 11210: 10971: 10625: 10294: 10205: 10162: 10095: 9988: 9913: 9868: 9807: 9665: 9450: 9369: 9268: 8917: 8862: 8832: 8582: 8555: 8535: 8483: 8387: 8312: 8157: 8088: 8047: 7639: 7621: 7576: 7456: 7416: 7336: 7323: 7306: 7289: 7255: 7221: 7153: 7043: 6999: 6886: 6774: 6729: 6585: 6354: 6185: 6006: 5878: 5829: 5807: 5662: 5517: 5185: 4875: 4840: 4721: 4629: 4617: 4604: 4515: 4362: 4006: 3966: 3893: 3487: 3417: 3392: 3359: 3326: 3304: 3256: 3239: 2898: 2868: 2799: 2782: 2641: 2472: 2433: 2270: 2252: 2217: 2076: 2020: 1706: 1520: 1481: 1449: 1353: 1155: 686: 598: 580: 464: 175: 152: 13053: 11342: 10015: 2893: 1814: 14649: 13912: 13762: 13699: 13094: 13020: 12968: 12695: 12310: 12227: 12178: 12066: 10797: 10714: 10593: 10468: 10414: 10361: 10331: 10191: 10111: 9506: 9449: 9340: 8986: 8947: 8900: 8845: 8726: 8709: 8689: 8289: 8238: 8071: 7996: 7975: 7596: 7558: 7541: 7528: 7507: 7234: 7184: 7080: 6955: 6840: 6509: 6490: 6472: 6067: 6049: 5758: 5708: 5588: 5558: 5498: 5357: 5271: 5202: 5097: 5029: 4886: 4494: 4418: 4229: 4157: 4117: 4076: 4058: 3932: 3696: 3675: 3662: 3645: 3622: 3435: 3286: 3011: 2748: 2693: 2552: 2125: 2001: 1757: 1637: 1567: 1550: 1468: 1368:: Localisation and personalisation is the future. Knowledge needs to get on board. — 1009: 950: 905: 862: 817: 668: 522: 458: 402: 260: 215: 8382:, we don't need a technical solution to cope with using an appropriate date format. 1411: 14569: 14415: 14235: 14137: 14112: 14058: 14010: 13957: 13644: 13509: 13467: 13221: 12880: 12794: 12373: 12209: 12131: 12070: 11983: 11976: 11972: 11916: 11441: 11381: 11330: 11314: 11164: 11157: 11136: 11063: 11015: 10956: 10734: 10696: 10683: 10651: 10578: 10520: 10507: 10499: 10484: 10395: 10353: 10263: 10238: 10176: 9962: 9824: 9755: 9719: 9702: 9689: 9622: 9524: 9398: 9353: 9308: 9286: 9068: 9008: 8685: 8496: 8400: 8379: 8358: 8327: 8197: 8132: 7892: 7865: 7776: 7763: 7694: 7201: 6937: 6857: 6807: 6437: 6397: 6320: 6099: 5926: 5790: 5605: 5487: 5327: 5127: 4929: 4717: 4713: 4678: 4565: 4547: 4507: 4439: 4422: 4272: 4093: 4034: 3990: 3865: 3729:- Confusion in date formats is rampant in the real world. Let's not make it worse. 3571: 3218: 3204: 3046: 2922: 2656: 2569: 2518: 2506: 2418: 2286: 2200: 2059: 1773: 1738: 1588: 1382: 1336: 1303: 1279: 1102: 1082: 1044: 885: 781: 760: 721: 625: 615: 505: 256: 237: 126: 89: 14040: 12981: 12963:, regarded for a long time (at least before Rupert Murdoch bought it) as the UK's 12789: 12668: 10533: 3772: 2471:, the simple solution for them is to edit their entry to correct the data format.- 1661: 1260: 330:, per Eluchil404. I would also support a spelling regionalisation autoformatting. 14658: 14069: 13888: 13442: 13424: 13392: 13327: 13298: 13254: 12043: 11968: 11374: 11083: 10869: 10811: 10774: 10548: 10534: 10428: 9944: 9723: 9637: 9583: 9488: 9471: 9434: 9184: 9117: 9051: 8799: 8782: 8449: 8101: 8009: 7962: 7925: 7831: 7742: 7725: 7673: 7490: 7272: 6921: 6904: 6702: 6672: 6635: 6618: 6601: 6454: 6398: 6236: 6208: 6149: 6127: 5645: 5627: 5470: 5371: 5294: 5215: 5148: 5059: 5042: 5012: 4911: 4700: 4486: 4443: 4205: 4170: 4136: 3873: 3827: 3780: 3337: 3024: 2994: 2934: 2812: 2589:, which is extremely difficult (more like impossible) to acheive on a wiki site. 2489: 2167: 2104: 1980: 1846: 1685: 1671: 1503: 1428: 1193: 1172: 988: 967: 105: 14106: 13034: 11160:, I personally regard that as a side effect rather than a major driving reason. 14650: 14612: 14450: 14329: 14262: 13940: 13554: 13193: 13087: 13071: 12583: 12505: 12487: 12446: 12418: 12344: 12327: 12112: 11490: 10316: 9600: 9555: 9541: 9536: 9416: 9171: 9082: 8668: 8660: 8627: 8596: 8268: 8217: 8140: 7878: 7844: 7810: 7708: 7656: 7562: 7391: 7373: 7340: 7097: 7012: 6887: 6870: 6811: 6786: 6743: 6656: 6530: 6416: 6333: 6223: 5725: 5575: 5452: 5388: 5073: 4996: 4942: 4857: 4819: 4794: 4781: 4692: 4642: 4464: 4285: 4252: 4244: 3953: 3853: 3793: 3598: 3519: 3460: 3270: 3183: 2959: 2834: 2765: 2727: 2710: 2591: 2535: 2400: 2383: 2365: 2231: 2195:. It's a benefit for readers, and the maintenance can be mostly done by bots. 2042: 1823: 1611: 1322: 1142: 929: 642: 552: 539: 480: 443: 385: 358: 335: 194: 12987: 12941: 10577: 7489:- Autoformatting adds complexity and it does not solve any important problem. 6869: 6332: 14368:§ “4. MODIFICATIONS: . . . you must do these things in the Modified Version: 14296: 14159: 14088: 14015: 13784: 13648: 13593: 13487: 13182: 13131: 13075: 12720: 12638: 12599: 11794: 11790: 11656: 11543: 11476: 11318: 11206: 10909: 10621: 10568: 10448: 10346: 10289: 10201: 10158: 10129: 10091: 9909: 9864: 9803: 9790: 9370: 9264: 9154: 8913: 8828: 8571: 8550: 8530: 8517: 8479: 8383: 8345: 8255: 8153: 8084: 7635: 7617: 7408: 7319: 7302: 7285: 7251: 7217: 7039: 7026: 6995: 6767: 6725: 6713: 6568: 6350: 6030: 6020: 6002: 5944: 5513: 5259: 5165: 4871: 4836: 4771: 4625: 4600: 4511: 4002: 3889: 3752: 3717: 3550: 3355: 3321: 3252: 3235: 2894: 2795: 2778: 2637: 2399:, primarily because it will reduce that pointless and annoying edit warring. 2213: 2184: 2010: 1899: 1702: 1516: 1369: 1357: 1080: 843: 831: 682: 594: 280: 172: 11716: 11135: 3217:(in favour) This is an important aspect for interoperability in the future. 13908: 13680:("Accept-Language" in particular) and a suitable date-format used. Cheers, 12692: 12194: 10770: 10464: 10410: 10327: 10187: 9502: 9336: 8943: 8931: 8896: 8816: 8765: 8285: 8234: 8067: 7992: 7524: 7171: 7141: 7118: 7114: 7068: 7056: 6836: 6589: 6063: 6045: 5823: 5554: 5425: 5353: 5341: 5198: 5091: 5025: 4808: 4490: 4482: 4477: 4369: 4356: 4331: 4224: 4153: 4112: 4072: 4054: 3928: 3760: 3658: 3641: 3618: 3282: 3007: 2744: 2364:, let's concentrate on the contents. leave the formatting to the system. -- 2121: 1997: 1753: 1633: 1465: 1005: 946: 898: 859: 813: 681:- Autoformatting without wikilinking seems to be a good solution to me. -- 659: 518: 13616: 5587: 14566: 14412: 14232: 14134: 14109: 14055: 13952: 13617: 13575: 13251: 13217: 13208: 13059: 13002: 12946: 12913: 12876: 12790: 12205: 11980: 11912: 11862: 11724: 11598: 11458: 11438: 11412: 11378: 11348: 11327: 11161: 11060: 11031: 10999: 10975: 10936: 10923: 10680: 10516: 10503: 10479: 10172: 9958: 9820: 9802:- Too much fuzz about something that adds negligible value to the users. 9752: 9683: 9618: 9520: 9387: 9281: 9064: 8594:- I supported the first time, when first brought up, I support it now. -- 8308: 8115: 7861: 7759: 7690: 7138: 6853: 6316: 6304: 6288: 5922: 5785: 5775: 5687: 5530: 5323: 5234: 4925: 4673: 4541: 4268: 4175: 4089: 4019: 3986: 3567: 3483: 3042: 2972: 2918: 2196: 1770: 1584: 1380: 1299: 881: 777: 717: 611: 501: 252: 139: 122: 86: 13083: 9149:. We're already too far down this particular slippery slope, I think. 1898: 1498: 14654: 14155: 13881: 13320: 13192: 12617: 12466: 12258: 12036: 12014: 11185: 11114: 11076: 10713: 10424: 9888: 9613: 9579: 9484: 9467: 9303: 9147: 9047: 8684:- I disagree with differing formats for registered v. non-registered. 8445: 7951: 7909: 7827: 7758: 7268: 6698: 6631: 6614: 6597: 6203: 6201:- ugh, another RFC? How many times are we going to go through this? -- 6145: 6144: 5641: 5291: 5144: 5008: 4904: 4814: 4696: 4135: 3907: 3866: 3776: 2990: 2950: 2935: 2319:"Weak" because of the problem of inconsistency for unregistered users. 2100: 1842: 1666: 1499: 307: 7156: 2212:. I prefer unified date formats, and the meta data may be useful too. 14678: 13983: 13817: 13055: 12960: 12579: 10996: 10312: 9596: 9537: 9167: 9099: 8136: 7540:- I basically think it is a waste of manpower to make the overhaul.-- 7365: 7147: 7135: 6526: 6082: 5571: 4853: 4460: 3949: 3849: 3593: 2955: 2761: 1515:. Avoid arguments over which format to use for a particular article. 1317: 1171:. Consistency and reader customisability are important factors here. 1138: 535: 439: 354: 331: 14365:§ “2. VERBATIM COPYING: . . . you may publicly display copies. . . . 14131: 10388: 8873: 7860: 7318:—There's no use for autoformatting. I don't see the problem here. -- 3587: 13725:("Accept-Language" in particular) and a suitable date-format used." 13091: 13038: 12401: 10905: 10608: 10564: 10125: 9786: 9150: 8513: 8251: 7390: 7301:—links should lead users to useful content. Date links do not. -- 5939: 5160: 4256: 3945: 3768: 3713: 3546: 1907: 275: 14229: 13719: 13248: 9957: 5744: 4662: 13843: 13259: 13079: 13015: 12997: 12938: 12546:, using the ambiguous 3/2/03 type format is not an option anyway. 10773: 9749: 9578: 9046: 8375: 7877: 7159: 3059: 14675: 12376:. The similarities are superficial and few, as it seems to me. — 12292: 11373: 10152: 9466: 13674: 13271: 10882:), above, seems to have just mistaken the two as intertwined. — 6610: 6593: 5661: 3563: 2344:, per Jeff (consistent dates, less edit warring).--Esprit15d • 12061: 10157: 6315: 5707: 7144: 3617:- worthwhile standardisation, while retaining person choice. 2091: 10010: 9029: 9021:"Oppose", I suppose. Actually I'm not at all opposed to the 7162: 6098:, but that doesn't seem to be what's being discussed here. — 5290:. How many more polls on this issue are we going to take? — 4564: 14682: 13712: 13275: 13267: 10679:? Or do we need an AbuseFilter warning on the word "link"? 10260: 9263: 8912: 1860: 1189: 14299: 13418: 13214: 13196: 11429: 9063:. Support Jimp (147). The "for" reasons are very weak. 7180: 7174: 5126: 4313: 1657: 1566:. This is the way to do it, because it is very effective. 12942: 12703: 7168: 6029: 870: 14087: 13270: 12758:, so there will be no excessive linking to annoy you. – 11595: 10021: 7150: 3792:- Consistency is valuable. This will (eventually) help. 6485: 2850: 13202: 4506: 3501:. Just so I can get non-North American date formats! 2889:. It makes sense to be able to identify dates as such 2585:– I'm a fan of options, but I'm an even bigger fan of 1665: 1043:- Why not let users choose how dates are displayed? -- 14154: 13721:"The user's locale could easily be inferred from the 13001: 10140: 10072: 4616: 4088: 3927: 8861: 6604:) 08:54, 31 March 2009 (UTC) Added in response to a 3712:- Having dates in different formats is confusing. -- 12637:Sorry, I'll be more clear. I edited my above post. 8547:. Arguments against really sum it up completely. — 7472:- Date formatting makes Knowledge editing hard :^( 6761: 5024:Extra typing and proofreading for no real benefit. 4510:works well for English variants, so why not dates? 11279:completely standardise all dates into one format. 8378:, and write it out consistently. We can cope with 7634:servers, and a frivolous time-waster for editors. 6630:Can create far too many blue links in articles. -- 2166:editors do not need to make that choice for them. 624:I want date and time to be displayed as I like. -- 14643:To answer Martindelaware's question (support 189) 12824:. Now, I can understand not wanting to go around 12405:. I never claimed it was a formal, binding, vote. 12222:, and I don't see even a clear supermajority for 11367:(not necessarily you, don't take this personally) 9553:We love over-complicating things here, don't we? 8570:Don't think dates should be linked, looks messy. 8374:Keep it simple, choose an appropriate format per 7200:. -- So little value added, so much time wasted. 4187:Makes sense to support the most popular format -- 2075:per AlanBarrett, who summarised it really well. — 1818:editors and bots to add them, should they desire. 12933:"—well spotted; a very good point. In terms of " 12247:requests), and never any acknowledgement of the 11455:it's so difficult for code to solve the problems 10695:No-one above appears to have conflated the two. 8416:. I don't see how the result is worth the cost. 8131:primarily because this is just a simple case of 5072:Trivial and unnecessary expansion of bandwidth. 3910:that should be set off by commas on either side? 3303:parser function would be sufficient to do this. 3144:, only because this argument is a subset of the 13456:Make the server do it while assembling the page 10349:, i've perfomed several similar edits applying 6742:articles then there is no problem to address.-- 5387:I have opposed before and i will do it again.-- 4539:: What problem are we trying to solve by this? 1884:rated a mention at featured article candidates. 64:I support the general concept of autoformatting 12828:how the markup works, and thus not wanting to 12151:which contained dates by default. You should 11431:List of compositions by George Frideric Handel 10983:(To the above two posts) The edit comment of " 4347:I oppose the general concept of autoformatting 3583:. Many people have different date formats, so 2952:for readers who have specifically asked for it 1890:format is used, a quality encyclopedia (which 9595:Just doesn't work and is hardly necessary. -- 7843:, per Pmanderson, Karanacs, and Gatoclass. -- 7506:– I want to be on the winning side for once. 6644:Apart from the issue of overlinking, this is 6388:"Welcome to Knowledge, the encyclopedia that 5822:Apparently this was insufficiently clear for 13797:My original point was that "auto-formatting 13574:that 2000 Wikipedians going crazy on 1 Jan? 10563:Neutral - I barely understand how it works. 6184:. A lot of busy work for no extensive gain. 5258:given the extra work for minimal benefit. -- 4255:). Also some date formats used in practice ( 1335:needed for reliable semantic data retrieval 292:, especially given that the developers have 13413:I note that User:neuro returned and added: 12441:users who clamor that the reader need only 12256:special perks, not just autoformatting.) -- 3459:This should solve all reasonable problems. 1810:come a surge of retrospective date-tagging. 1188:. Being a web programmer involved in many 12403:Please indicate your vote under ONE option 12147:: It would result in changing of dates in 10748:confused about this. Since when is 3:29 a 5640:PMAnderson summarises my views exactly. -- 3589:Knowledge:Date formatting and linking poll 2183:. I prefer to view dates a certain way. 1802:optionally configured on a per-user basis. 18:Knowledge:Date formatting and linking poll 12412:The similarities are superficial and few 1870:" A current case at ArbCom says otherwise 7974:. Do I have to repeat the arguments? -- 3006:Gives a consistency to the entire wiki. 1795:Eighteenth of October, 1945</tag: --> 13668:Autoformatting for non-registered users 9352:Everyone should use YYYY-mm-dd format. 9033:the implication we're likely to get, I 7775:Per Sept, Sandy, Karanacs and others.-- 5945: 2989:Provides user choice and consistency.-- 1649:. Date formatting should be seen as an 14: 13903:use of #formatdate, and (2) should we 12741:The number of people who are actually 11435:who will oppose everything without end 11409:who will oppose everything without end 11400:every date on a page needs to be coded 10634:In principle, I would tend to support 9819:for many of the reasons stated above. 8529:Inelegantly solves what needn't be. -- 7146:uses DD MMM YYYY? Or in India because 6835:section of the "statement against". — 3148:argument, with which I do agree, below 12111:it will make on editor and hardware. 10988:of the work could be bot-accomplished 8688:answers this non-problem perfectly.-- 7434:I don't really see the point in this 2912:"all English-speakers recognize both" 13423:That looks to me like a retraction. 13173:ordering on official UK levels e.g. 12063:with appropriate regional variations 10045:find all instances of a certain date 4695:and avoid the added complexity. -- 4421:doesn't change the fact it's a pig. 1797:in October of that year</tag: --> 1316:autoformatting without autolinking. 32: 10394:it doesn't rely on date linking. -- 8798:This is a waste of resources imho. 7924:this unnecessary added complexity.— 7360:change format and you have to have 7166:Australian Broadcasting Corporation 6613:, when we have a WYSIWYG editor. -- 2852:all English-speakers recognize both 2794:; I prefer the idea of uniformity. 1794:is allowed, as well as <tag: --> 23: 14042: 13989:Furthermore, autoformatting dates 13734:My point was that auto-formatting 10842:Ah, ye of little (good) faith. -- 9863:second seems beyond pointless. -- 9081:heterogeneity into a uniform box? 7158:DD MMM YYYY? Or in Australia that 6395:discourage new users and old alike 5041:Agree with the arguments against. 4980:, Pmanderson puts it rather well. 880:bonnet about "unnecessary" links. 100:. I find it much nicer and easier 24: 14697: 12996:"?). Are you suggesting that the 11326:preference: register an account. 11180:(In response to Neutral #1 above) 10666:Comments regarding autoformatting 8942:if it ain't broke, don't fix it. 7178:Canadian Broadcasting Corporation 13878:In response to neutral vote # 14 13266:. He was hit by a fire truck in 12927:In response to oppose vote # 138 12902:In response to support vote # 82 12053:Actually, you're both right. I 12008:(In response to Oppose#89 above) 9143:The Encyclopedia anyone can edit 5967:... always have and always will 5938:, solution without a problem. — 3757:Pearl_Jam_discography#References 2458:when it comes to the subject of 2043:XxReikoxX - The Visual Asia Geek 54:Please indicate your vote under 36: 12282:Good grief! how hard can it be? 8444:. Never did see sense in it. -- 6810:type solution take care of it. 6648:encyclopedia project producing 6058:To clarify: the fact that it's 1245:Le Petit Modificateur Laborieux 370:. Please leave as is (or was). 14668: 12910:four brackets (]) around dates 10150:{{#formatdate:|30 March 2008}} 9746:rewrite web pages and articles 4801:) 01:46, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 13: 1: 13282:Context on link misconception 4807:this is added in response to 1868:There is no problem to solve. 13481:The problem here is that we 6829:There is no problem to solve 6436:Sincerely, a friend to all, 3023:#90 makes compelling points 2473:SSG Cornelius Seon (Retired) 7: 12544:User:This flag once was red 11072:Prevention of edit-warring? 8250:, not a useful addition. -- 4595:- Most Knowledge users are 3682:extermination requests here 964:User:This flag once was red 10: 14702: 14663:00:25, 12 April 2009 (UTC) 14621:23:14, 13 April 2009 (UTC) 14459:22:08, 12 April 2009 (UTC) 14271:04:26, 12 April 2009 (UTC) 14168:19:58, 11 April 2009 (UTC) 14097:17:14, 11 April 2009 (UTC) 14083:17:11, 11 April 2009 (UTC) 13226:16:41, 13 April 2009 (UTC) 13187:Mansfield District Council 13155:here's a "13th April 2009" 12954:23:33, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 12921:21:57, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 12729:23:38, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 12685:11:20, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 12647:12:47, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 12633:02:28, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 12608:02:16, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 12570:12:53, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 12525:14:14, 13 April 2009 (UTC) 12274:02:24, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 12214:07:21, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 12185:00:09, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 12121:16:50, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 12101:the idea of autoformatting 12049:08:23, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 12030:21:26, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 11987:22:19, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 11959:16:55, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 11921:15:06, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 11870:22:56, 13 April 2009 (UTC) 11732:00:16, 12 April 2009 (UTC) 11420:23:19, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 11385:12:26, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 11356:00:46, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 11334:15:05, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 11304:14:23, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 11270:13:44, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 11249:13:36, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 11215:08:48, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 11201:06:26, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 11168:12:05, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 11145:13:51, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 11130:11:07, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 11107:10:56, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 11089:08:41, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 11067:02:48, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 11039:06:10, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 11025:04:20, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 11007:03:23, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 10979:03:13, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 10966:02:53, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 10944:01:53, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 10927:01:09, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 10914:13:13, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 10895:13:19, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 10847:16:11, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 10826:20:24, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 10807:19:22, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 10791:12:34, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 10781:03:38, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 10762:08:26, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 10743:03:21, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 10729:To quote someone I know: " 10721:02:07, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 10705:01:56, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 10687:00:12, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 10660:00:50, 12 April 2009 (UTC) 10630:14:21, 11 April 2009 (UTC) 10615:10:37, 11 April 2009 (UTC) 10602:05:57, 10 April 2009 (UTC) 10511:14:02, 5 April 2009 (UTC)* 10306:07:24, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 10279:22:16, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 10247:21:28, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 10229:18:08, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 10210:16:26, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 10196:16:22, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 10181:14:28, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 10167:06:18, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 10134:14:33, 13 April 2009 (UTC) 10100:13:30, 13 April 2009 (UTC) 9997:11:10, 13 April 2009 (UTC) 9983:23:49, 12 April 2009 (UTC) 9967:21:11, 12 April 2009 (UTC) 9953:19:57, 12 April 2009 (UTC) 9936:18:20, 12 April 2009 (UTC) 9918:17:15, 12 April 2009 (UTC) 9901:15:52, 12 April 2009 (UTC) 9880:14:54, 12 April 2009 (UTC) 9846:06:47, 12 April 2009 (UTC) 9829:01:32, 12 April 2009 (UTC) 9812:23:51, 11 April 2009 (UTC) 9795:19:43, 11 April 2009 (UTC) 9778:18:47, 11 April 2009 (UTC) 9737:15:22, 11 April 2009 (UTC) 9711:11:23, 11 April 2009 (UTC) 9694:11:17, 11 April 2009 (UTC) 9674:10:28, 11 April 2009 (UTC) 9657:07:32, 11 April 2009 (UTC) 9627:06:23, 11 April 2009 (UTC) 9605:02:37, 11 April 2009 (UTC) 9588:01:57, 11 April 2009 (UTC) 9571:01:28, 11 April 2009 (UTC) 9546:23:01, 10 April 2009 (UTC) 9529:21:07, 10 April 2009 (UTC) 9511:19:41, 10 April 2009 (UTC) 9493:18:34, 10 April 2009 (UTC) 9476:17:19, 10 April 2009 (UTC) 9141:. This is supposed to be 8677:02:41, 12 April 2009 (UTC) 7209:23:36, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 7193:23:02, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 7164:uses MMM DD, YYYY and the 7106:21:01, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 7089:19:52, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 7072:19:48, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 7060:19:39, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 7048:19:05, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 7021:19:01, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 7004:18:12, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 6990:18:10, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 6973:18:03, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 6946:17:40, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 6929:17:30, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 6913:17:29, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 6896:17:22, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 6879:16:38, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 6862:16:33, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 6845:16:32, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 6827:. I am most persuaded by 6820:16:30, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 6795:16:26, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 6778:16:20, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 6752:16:00, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 6734:15:00, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 6717:12:54, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 6705:12:33, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 6690:11:54, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 6666:11:44, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 6640:11:35, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 6577:08:07, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 6558:08:03, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 6535:07:54, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 6518:07:18, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 6481:06:34, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 6463:05:05, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 6446:05:03, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 6425:03:47, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 6405:03:33, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 6384:03:22, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 6359:03:09, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 6342:03:04, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 6325:03:01, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 6308:02:32, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 6296:02:07, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 6275:01:55, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 6250:00:12, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 6227:00:02, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 6215:23:43, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 6194:22:33, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 6177:22:19, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 6154:22:05, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 6137:21:18, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 6114:21:12, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 6086:21:06, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 6054:20:38, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 6024:20:14, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 6011:20:10, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 5995:20:09, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 5983:20:01, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 5960:19:32, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 5931:19:24, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 5914:19:16, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 5899:18:49, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 5869:18:44, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 5818:17:37, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 5798:17:33, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 5767:17:30, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 5749:17:28, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 5740:17:19, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 5717:17:06, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 5699:16:56, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 5678:16:50, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 5650:16:37, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 5633:16:23, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 5618:16:21, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 5597:16:20, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 5580:16:04, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 5563:15:57, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 5545:15:53, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 5522:15:23, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 5504:15:22, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 5479:15:08, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 5461:15:09, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 5435:15:06, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 5412:14:58, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 5397:14:56, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 5380:14:49, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 5362:14:15, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 5345:14:01, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 5332:13:51, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 5315:13:43, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 5298:13:40, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 5283:13:38, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 5263:13:37, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 5251:13:18, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 5224:13:01, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 5207:12:34, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 5190:11:18, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 5173:11:04, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 5136:10:03, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 5119:09:19, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 5102:09:03, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 5082:08:09, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 5068:08:09, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 5051:08:04, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 5034:07:29, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 5017:07:12, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 5000:06:44, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 4988:05:58, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 4973:05:01, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 4951:04:42, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 4934:04:21, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 4917:03:31, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 4896:02:13, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 4880:02:07, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 4862:01:59, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 4844:01:47, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 4786:01:24, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 4754:00:46, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 4730:00:36, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 4705:00:31, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 4684:00:26, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 4655:00:15, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 4633:00:07, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 4609:00:07, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 4588:00:00, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 4571:23:57, 29 March 2009 (UTC) 4560:23:55, 29 March 2009 (UTC) 4532:23:53, 29 March 2009 (UTC) 4520:23:47, 29 March 2009 (UTC) 4499:23:45, 29 March 2009 (UTC) 4469:23:34, 29 March 2009 (UTC) 4452:23:23, 29 March 2009 (UTC) 4431:23:21, 29 March 2009 (UTC) 4410:23:16, 29 March 2009 (UTC) 4377:23:12, 29 March 2009 (UTC) 4341:16:23, 13 April 2009 (UTC) 4323:14:10, 13 April 2009 (UTC) 4305:14:06, 13 April 2009 (UTC) 4277:01:18, 13 April 2009 (UTC) 4236:00:56, 13 April 2009 (UTC) 4214:23:32, 12 April 2009 (UTC) 4197:18:01, 12 April 2009 (UTC) 4180:15:33, 12 April 2009 (UTC) 4162:14:40, 12 April 2009 (UTC) 4145:14:38, 12 April 2009 (UTC) 4124:14:34, 12 April 2009 (UTC) 4098:11:02, 12 April 2009 (UTC) 4081:04:11, 12 April 2009 (UTC) 4063:02:21, 12 April 2009 (UTC) 4046:23:17, 11 April 2009 (UTC) 4026:18:19, 11 April 2009 (UTC) 4011:12:34, 11 April 2009 (UTC) 3994:11:58, 11 April 2009 (UTC) 3978:10:43, 11 April 2009 (UTC) 3958:10:27, 11 April 2009 (UTC) 3937:07:08, 11 April 2009 (UTC) 3920:06:29, 11 April 2009 (UTC) 3898:01:29, 11 April 2009 (UTC) 3880:22:38, 10 April 2009 (UTC) 3858:19:03, 10 April 2009 (UTC) 3840:13:54, 10 April 2009 (UTC) 3819:12:05, 10 April 2009 (UTC) 3802:09:44, 10 April 2009 (UTC) 3785:05:09, 10 April 2009 (UTC) 3739:05:03, 10 April 2009 (UTC) 3722:04:45, 10 April 2009 (UTC) 3705:04:21, 10 April 2009 (UTC) 3688:03:05, 10 April 2009 (UTC) 3667:00:06, 10 April 2009 (UTC) 3650:00:03, 10 April 2009 (UTC) 3545:opposes it escapes me. -- 2157:function already exists). 1745:22:57, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 1728:22:51, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 1711:21:55, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 1694:21:44, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 1677:20:36, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 1642:20:34, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 1620:19:53, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 1593:18:40, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 1576:18:09, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 1559:17:54, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 1542:17:31, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 1525:16:54, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 1508:16:31, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 1490:16:18, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 1473:15:52, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 1458:15:39, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 1441:13:03, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 1421:11:00, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 1400:07:01, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 1373:06:38, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 1361:06:13, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 1345:06:10, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 1328:03:33, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 1308:03:13, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 1291:01:56, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 1270:01:15, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 1253:01:12, 31 March 2009 (UTC) 1236:23:59, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 1204:22:38, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 1181:22:16, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 1164:22:08, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 1147:21:44, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 1130:21:32, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 1112:21:27, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 1095:21:26, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 1059:20:25, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 1036:20:18, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 1014:20:07, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 997:19:51, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 976:19:47, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 955:19:10, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 938:18:54, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 920:18:31, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 890:18:27, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 849:19:13, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 837:17:37, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 822:17:20, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 805:17:14, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 786:16:48, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 769:16:26, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 752:16:14, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 726:16:02, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 708:15:59, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 691:15:44, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 674:15:15, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 651:15:05, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 634:14:59, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 620:14:56, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 603:14:51, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 586:14:17, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 572:14:02, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 544:13:36, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 527:13:26, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 510:13:03, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 489:12:58, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 472:12:42, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 448:11:44, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 431:10:53, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 411:10:23, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 394:09:36, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 377:09:31, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 363:09:17, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 340:06:58, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 323:04:33, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 285:03:31, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 266:03:20, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 247:02:46, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 222:02:05, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 203:01:27, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 185:00:59, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 163:00:51, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 143:00:04, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 131:00:02, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 114:00:01, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 93:23:14, 29 March 2009 (UTC) 14225:eats, shoots & leaves 14034:19:03, 5 April 2009 (UTC) 14004:06:31, 5 April 2009 (UTC) 13963:02:23, 5 April 2009 (UTC) 13917:12:17, 4 April 2009 (UTC) 13894:06:43, 4 April 2009 (UTC) 13863:11:02, 4 April 2009 (UTC) 13793:08:31, 4 April 2009 (UTC) 13771:21:05, 3 April 2009 (UTC) 13753:19:33, 3 April 2009 (UTC) 13708:19:18, 3 April 2009 (UTC) 13692:18:17, 3 April 2009 (UTC) 13663:16:04, 3 April 2009 (UTC) 13625:01:10, 9 April 2009 (UTC) 13612:00:31, 9 April 2009 (UTC) 13583:22:42, 8 April 2009 (UTC) 13563:16:14, 6 April 2009 (UTC) 13518:13:12, 4 April 2009 (UTC) 13496:19:53, 3 April 2009 (UTC) 13476:15:39, 3 April 2009 (UTC) 13450:23:48, 1 April 2009 (UTC) 13433:18:06, 1 April 2009 (UTC) 13401:18:05, 2 April 2009 (UTC) 13333:09:58, 2 April 2009 (UTC) 13307:01:20, 2 April 2009 (UTC) 13140:15:29, 3 April 2009 (UTC) 13118:16:05, 1 April 2009 (UTC) 13103:15:45, 1 April 2009 (UTC) 13048:15:13, 1 April 2009 (UTC) 13029:08:54, 1 April 2009 (UTC) 13010:01:04, 1 April 2009 (UTC) 12977:00:24, 1 April 2009 (UTC) 12885:07:37, 3 April 2009 (UTC) 12850:11:32, 2 April 2009 (UTC) 12799:07:08, 2 April 2009 (UTC) 12768:14:35, 1 April 2009 (UTC) 12496:21:57, 9 April 2009 (UTC) 12482:21:49, 9 April 2009 (UTC) 12455:21:38, 9 April 2009 (UTC) 12427:02:51, 7 April 2009 (UTC) 12390:02:32, 7 April 2009 (UTC) 12353:01:50, 7 April 2009 (UTC) 12336:01:46, 7 April 2009 (UTC) 12319:23:58, 6 April 2009 (UTC) 12304:08:08, 3 April 2009 (UTC) 12234:16:06, 1 April 2009 (UTC) 12166:06:57, 5 April 2009 (UTC) 12140:06:01, 3 April 2009 (UTC) 12085:06:06, 5 April 2009 (UTC) 11606:02:00, 9 April 2009 (UTC) 11499:03:41, 8 April 2009 (UTC) 11466:04:18, 1 April 2009 (UTC) 11445:02:10, 1 April 2009 (UTC) 10587:06:00, 8 April 2009 (UTC) 10573:18:05, 6 April 2009 (UTC) 10557:13:20, 6 April 2009 (UTC) 10543:06:24, 6 April 2009 (UTC) 10525:10:14, 6 April 2009 (UTC) 10493:16:37, 4 April 2009 (UTC) 10473:18:09, 3 April 2009 (UTC) 10433:16:10, 2 April 2009 (UTC) 10419:13:26, 2 April 2009 (UTC) 10404:08:21, 2 April 2009 (UTC) 10384:16:54, 1 April 2009 (UTC) 10370:08:08, 1 April 2009 (UTC) 10336:07:17, 1 April 2009 (UTC) 10322:01:13, 1 April 2009 (UTC) 9459:23:38, 9 April 2009 (UTC) 9442:21:57, 9 April 2009 (UTC) 9425:20:45, 9 April 2009 (UTC) 9404:20:39, 9 April 2009 (UTC) 9378:19:45, 9 April 2009 (UTC) 9362:04:39, 9 April 2009 (UTC) 9345:21:10, 8 April 2009 (UTC) 9327:20:57, 8 April 2009 (UTC) 9313:19:19, 8 April 2009 (UTC) 9296:19:10, 8 April 2009 (UTC) 9273:17:32, 8 April 2009 (UTC) 9256:15:11, 8 April 2009 (UTC) 9239:15:08, 8 April 2009 (UTC) 9224:14:41, 8 April 2009 (UTC) 9193:09:05, 8 April 2009 (UTC) 9176:21:33, 7 April 2009 (UTC) 9159:20:45, 7 April 2009 (UTC) 9134:18:31, 7 April 2009 (UTC) 9107:15:39, 7 April 2009 (UTC) 9091:14:56, 7 April 2009 (UTC) 9073:14:06, 7 April 2009 (UTC) 9056:09:52, 7 April 2009 (UTC) 9017:09:43, 7 April 2009 (UTC) 9000:07:19, 7 April 2009 (UTC) 8973:00:35, 7 April 2009 (UTC) 8952:00:19, 7 April 2009 (UTC) 8935:20:58, 6 April 2009 (UTC) 8922:20:18, 6 April 2009 (UTC) 8905:19:47, 6 April 2009 (UTC) 8886:19:01, 6 April 2009 (UTC) 8866:18:33, 6 April 2009 (UTC) 8854:18:25, 6 April 2009 (UTC) 8837:18:10, 6 April 2009 (UTC) 8820:17:28, 6 April 2009 (UTC) 8808:17:03, 6 April 2009 (UTC) 8791:16:37, 6 April 2009 (UTC) 8774:16:33, 6 April 2009 (UTC) 8752:14:52, 6 April 2009 (UTC) 8735:14:26, 6 April 2009 (UTC) 8718:13:28, 6 April 2009 (UTC) 8701:04:57, 6 April 2009 (UTC) 8652:04:22, 6 April 2009 (UTC) 8635:23:43, 5 April 2009 (UTC) 8618:22:32, 5 April 2009 (UTC) 8587:19:11, 5 April 2009 (UTC) 8563:19:02, 5 April 2009 (UTC) 8540:16:53, 5 April 2009 (UTC) 8522:15:41, 5 April 2009 (UTC) 8505:12:11, 5 April 2009 (UTC) 8488:07:13, 5 April 2009 (UTC) 8471:06:02, 5 April 2009 (UTC) 8454:03:18, 5 April 2009 (UTC) 8437:23:45, 4 April 2009 (UTC) 8409:20:21, 4 April 2009 (UTC) 8392:20:19, 4 April 2009 (UTC) 8367:18:22, 4 April 2009 (UTC) 8348:14:14, 4 April 2009 (UTC) 8336:12:24, 4 April 2009 (UTC) 8294:09:01, 4 April 2009 (UTC) 8277:08:43, 4 April 2009 (UTC) 8260:08:15, 4 April 2009 (UTC) 8243:21:52, 3 April 2009 (UTC) 8226:21:13, 3 April 2009 (UTC) 8208:19:47, 3 April 2009 (UTC) 8187:19:41, 3 April 2009 (UTC) 8162:18:20, 3 April 2009 (UTC) 8145:16:38, 3 April 2009 (UTC) 8124:15:51, 3 April 2009 (UTC) 8093:15:17, 3 April 2009 (UTC) 8076:11:00, 3 April 2009 (UTC) 8054:10:57, 3 April 2009 (UTC) 8039:05:15, 3 April 2009 (UTC) 8022:04:33, 3 April 2009 (UTC) 8001:02:50, 3 April 2009 (UTC) 7984:01:47, 3 April 2009 (UTC) 7967:23:22, 2 April 2009 (UTC) 7943:22:24, 2 April 2009 (UTC) 7917:22:02, 2 April 2009 (UTC) 7901:21:49, 2 April 2009 (UTC) 7883:20:46, 2 April 2009 (UTC) 7870:18:57, 2 April 2009 (UTC) 7853:17:32, 2 April 2009 (UTC) 7836:16:45, 2 April 2009 (UTC) 7819:11:20, 2 April 2009 (UTC) 7802:09:12, 2 April 2009 (UTC) 7785:08:03, 2 April 2009 (UTC) 7768:05:55, 2 April 2009 (UTC) 7751:05:31, 2 April 2009 (UTC) 7734:05:28, 2 April 2009 (UTC) 7717:05:14, 2 April 2009 (UTC) 7699:04:40, 2 April 2009 (UTC) 7682:04:28, 2 April 2009 (UTC) 7665:02:41, 2 April 2009 (UTC) 7644:02:39, 2 April 2009 (UTC) 7626:02:38, 2 April 2009 (UTC) 7609:02:11, 2 April 2009 (UTC) 7585:00:45, 2 April 2009 (UTC) 7568:00:12, 2 April 2009 (UTC) 7533:00:03, 2 April 2009 (UTC) 7516:23:47, 1 April 2009 (UTC) 7499:19:39, 1 April 2009 (UTC) 7482:17:58, 1 April 2009 (UTC) 7465:17:20, 1 April 2009 (UTC) 7444:12:42, 1 April 2009 (UTC) 7421:11:43, 1 April 2009 (UTC) 7400:08:34, 1 April 2009 (UTC) 7382:08:07, 1 April 2009 (UTC) 7349:07:28, 1 April 2009 (UTC) 7328:06:53, 1 April 2009 (UTC) 7311:05:29, 1 April 2009 (UTC) 7294:01:31, 1 April 2009 (UTC) 7277:01:29, 1 April 2009 (UTC) 7260:01:23, 1 April 2009 (UTC) 7243:01:10, 1 April 2009 (UTC) 7226:00:25, 1 April 2009 (UTC) 7123:21:10, 3 April 2009 (UTC) 6623:13:36, 1 April 2009 (UTC) 6499:21:34, 3 April 2009 (UTC) 6072:17:32, 1 April 2009 (UTC) 6034:09:25, 1 April 2009 (UTC) 5840:08:32, 2 April 2009 (UTC) 5774:I'll first point out the 4828:01:19, 1 April 2009 (UTC) 4033:As a reader, I like it.-- 3627:18:55, 9 April 2009 (UTC) 3610:18:52, 9 April 2009 (UTC) 3576:16:14, 9 April 2009 (UTC) 3555:13:45, 9 April 2009 (UTC) 3525:09:49, 9 April 2009 (UTC) 3511:21:18, 8 April 2009 (UTC) 3469:14:06, 8 April 2009 (UTC) 3452:12:41, 8 April 2009 (UTC) 3426:11:44, 8 April 2009 (UTC) 3409:08:09, 8 April 2009 (UTC) 3381:04:23, 8 April 2009 (UTC) 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2068:15:44, 1 April 2009 (UTC) 2051:09:38, 1 April 2009 (UTC) 2034:09:20, 1 April 2009 (UTC) 2005:07:30, 1 April 2009 (UTC) 1989:07:25, 1 April 2009 (UTC) 1970:05:39, 1 April 2009 (UTC) 1851:05:23, 1 April 2009 (UTC) 1832:01:30, 1 April 2009 (UTC) 1779:01:22, 1 April 2009 (UTC) 1762:00:02, 1 April 2009 (UTC) 14129:WP:GFDL#4._MODIFICATIONS 13645:US/Commonwealth spelling 8761:if it crashes the server 4765:articles would have the 372:This, that and the other 85:with no real substance. 29:Autoformatting responses 13411:Vote by User:Neurolysis 10310:Much ado about nothing 10064:MOS has guidelines for 10043:It is not difficult to 7267:—intrusive, pointless. 6287:"plain text" strategy. 4567:Der Wohltempierte Fuchs 3163:give users more options 1796:, and even <tag: --> 13854:This flag once was red 13744:This flag once was red 13683:This flag once was red 13654:This flag once was red 12935:MMM DD, YYYY all round 12752:the proposal is about 12702:12:49, 31 March 2009 ( 12655:Most of the arguments 12561:This flag once was red 10642:if it did not include 10090:over non-problems. -- 7152:says MMM DD, YYYY but 7140:uses MMM DD, YYYY but 5772:Edit Conflicted Oppose 5529:Not worth the effort. 3101:. My support would be 2915:when it is unambiguous 1793:Oct 18 45</tag: --> 897:giving user a choice. 869:18:07, 30 March 2009 ( 796:This flag once was red 13809:uses DD MMM YYYY and 13242:Silly autoformatting: 12195:"hanging chad !votes" 11967:You have presented a 10990:" is the key. How is 10051:combination of words. 9887:per above arguments. 9007:- quite unnessecary. 7170:DD MMM YYYY? Canada: 6994:Per Steve Crossin. -- 5754:Oppose autoformatting 3178:Complex and laborious 3146:Complex and laborious 3078:William Allen Simpson 1903:but date consistency 10376:Professor marginalia 10326:Per A. di M. above. 7358:an August 7 decision 7025:A few comments: The 5490:solves the problem. 4053:. Per IbLeo (#182)-- 3157:by these arguments: 3128:two classes of users 3118:benefits are obvious 3113:by these arguments: 14295:I'd say you have. 14019:(formerly Army1987) 13996:Shoemaker's Holiday 13597:(formerly Army1987) 13256:Belarusian language 13247:, a well-known and 13245:Uladzimir Katkouski 13064:The Financial Times 12965:newspaper of record 12368:gone to a vote. We 12158:Shoemaker's Holiday 11057:can be easily fixed 10972:regular expressions 8463:Shoemaker's Holiday 7362:a 7 August decision 5408:The Red Pen of Doom 4169:Knowledge is not a 2653:Conditional Support 2147:KISS arguments and 1943:Metadata fallacy... 1936:writing consistency 305:of DMY and MDY?) -- 231:Special:Preferences 14573:2009-04-13 20:25 z 14419:2009-04-12 16:04 z 14239:2009-04-11 23:28 z 14141:2009-04-11 17:54 z 14116:2009-04-11 17:45 z 14062:2009-04-11 16:41 z 13757:But it's not just 13163:another 13th April 12145:That is impossible 10802: 10016:pretty miraculous. 9759:2009-04-11 16:11 z 9402: 8744:Richard New Forest 8579: 7653:registered editors 7176:MMM DD, YYYY, but 7154:The Times of India 6572: 5157:) puts it nicely. 4891: 4459:per PMAnderson. -- 3753:citation templates 2468:Unregistered Users 2309: 14574: 14420: 14240: 14142: 14117: 14063: 14032: 13727:We can infer the 13610: 12630: 12523: 12479: 12392: 12302: 12271: 12083: 12027: 12010: 11956: 11953:(How am I doing?) 11368: 11301: 11298:(How am I doing?) 11246: 11243:(How am I doing?) 11198: 11182: 11127: 10796: 10658: 10523: 10510: 10460: 10447:comment added by 9965: 9950: 9877: 9871: 9760: 9562: 9551:Oppose...BIG TIME 9413:mostly unchanged. 9386: 9248:Armchair info guy 9222: 9129: 8996: 8975: 8884: 8817:Fredrik Johansson 8572: 8538: 8320: 8307:comment added by 8017: 7566: 7398: 7369: 7132:original research 6927: 6664: 6570: 6556: 6174: 6112: 6036: 5838: 5816: 5738: 5502: 5431: 5249: 4885: 4668:MOSNUM guidelines 4664:third time around 4558: 4483:bugzilla analysis 4478:bugzilla analysis 4450: 4419:lipstick to a pig 4407: 4404:(How am I doing?) 4315:Chris the speller 4303: 4261:low-hanging fruit 4160: 3759:, that is even a 3495: 3482:comment added by 3142:Development risks 2683: 2355: 2349: 2287: 2032: 1886:" While few care 1720:CharlesGillingham 1534:PatientSafetyGuru 1439: 1395: 1326: 1110: 918: 917: 750: 671: 666: 470: 320: 160: 50: 49: 45:not date linking. 14693: 14686: 14672: 14572: 14418: 14238: 14140: 14115: 14079: 14076: 14073: 14061: 14020: 14018: 13961: 13891: 13886: 13778:an issue. There 13621: 13598: 13596: 13579: 13463:to <br /: --> 13462:and <br/: --> 13448: 13445: 13330: 13325: 13006: 12950: 12917: 12719:autoformatting. 12627: 12622: 12520: 12515: 12513: 12510: 12476: 12471: 12388: 12381: 12379:Scheinwerfermann 12374:Template:convert 12299: 12293: 12268: 12263: 12073: 12046: 12041: 12024: 12019: 12006: 11979:on this issue". 11954: 11950: 11946: 11939: 11866: 11728: 11602: 11462: 11453:I didnt' claim " 11416: 11369:who will oppose 11366: 11352: 11299: 11295: 11291: 11284: 11244: 11240: 11236: 11229: 11195: 11190: 11178: 11124: 11119: 11086: 11081: 11035: 11023: 11003: 10994:defined? Also, " 10964: 10940: 10824: 10800: 10654: 10519: 10506: 10442: 10358: 10352: 10320: 10304: 10302: 10297: 10292: 10288: 10277: 10274: 10269: 10237:of the content. 10217:Peregrine Fisher 10151: 10147: 9980: 9975: 9961: 9948: 9898: 9893: 9875: 9869: 9758: 9734: 9729: 9722:. Common sense. 9691: 9654: 9652: 9649: 9643: 9640: 9567: 9560: 9554: 9401: 9395: 9390: 9375: 9293: 9284: 9236: 9216: 9131: 9127: 9123: 9120: 9104: 8997: 8994: 8971: 8964: 8962:Scheinwerfermann 8878: 8770: 8769: 8698: 8695: 8692: 8616: 8608: 8603: 8600: 8578: 8575: 8558: 8553: 8534: 8432: 8427: 8422: 8361: 8302: 8206: 8185: 8015: 7958: 7955: 7940: 7930: 7914: 7605: 7599: 7544: 7474:Fightin' Phillie 7413: 7394: 7367: 7250:no need for it. 6982:The Rambling Man 6969: 6964: 6961: 6958: 6926: 6924: 6833:Metadata fallacy 6776: 6770: 6663: 6661: 6654: 6575: 6573: 6555: 6553: 6548: 6543: 6379: 6376: 6373: 6370: 6292: 6261: 6246: 6239: 6211: 6206: 6173: 6170: 6167: 6102: 6028: 5992:Remember the dot 5980: 5973: 5957: 5956: 5952: 5948: 5942: 5889: 5866: 5860: 5854: 5832: 5810: 5795: 5793: 5788: 5778:nature of devs ( 5728: 5694: 5691: 5674: 5668: 5615: 5610: 5542: 5535: 5496: 5430: 5428: 5423: 5409: 5275: 5242: 5238: 5219: 5171: 5168: 4971: 4914: 4909: 4889: 4747: 4738: 4682: 4645: 4568: 4556: 4550: 4544: 4540: 4446: 4405: 4401: 4397: 4390: 4375: 4372: 4338: 4300: 4295: 4293: 4290: 4234: 4232: 4227: 4189:Thelostlibertine 4156: 4122: 4120: 4115: 4110: 4043: 4037: 4023: 3877: 3871: 3837: 3830: 3755:(for example at 3684: 3606: 3601: 3596: 3586: 3522: 3503:Wikipeterproject 3477: 3450: 3448: 3438: 3406: 3399: 3391: 3344:how am I typing? 3342: 3324: 3302: 3135:Metadata fallacy 2822: 2819: 2816: 2680: 2674: 2629:Strongly Support 2605: 2602: 2595: 2351: 2345: 2307: 2303: 2299: 2295: 2291: 2242: 2240: 2234: 2079: 2018: 1968: 1966: 1776: 1585:Daniel J Simanek 1436: 1431: 1426: 1397: 1393: 1385: 1320: 1228: 1219: 1201: 1196: 1122:Gareth McCaughan 1106: 1105: 1091: 1085: 903: 902: 846: 834: 749: 747: 742: 735: 669: 664: 660: 583: 563: 560: 557: 469: 467: 456: 317: 312: 263: 245: 183: 156: 40: 39: 33: 14701: 14700: 14696: 14695: 14694: 14692: 14691: 14690: 14689: 14673: 14669: 14077: 14074: 14071: 14051: 14048: 14014: 13950: 13889: 13882: 13861: 13751: 13690: 13672:The statement ( 13661: 13635:Autoformatting 13619: 13592: 13577: 13533:breaking change 13443: 13439: 13328: 13321: 13004: 12948: 12915: 12842:Henning Makholm 12760:Henning Makholm 12677:Henning Makholm 12629: 12625: 12568: 12532: 12518: 12511: 12506: 12478: 12474: 12387: 12377: 12370:don't vote here 12297: 12270: 12266: 12044: 12037: 12026: 12022: 11969:false dichotomy 11952: 11944: 11937: 11864: 11726: 11600: 11460: 11414: 11350: 11297: 11289: 11282: 11242: 11234: 11227: 11197: 11193: 11126: 11122: 11084: 11077: 11033: 11013: 11001: 10954: 10938: 10823: 10812: 10798: 10668: 10368: 10356: 10350: 10311: 10300: 10295: 10290: 10286: 10285: 10272: 10267: 10261: 10258:far better uses 10149: 10148:would be fine, 10146: 10142: 9978: 9973: 9928:Reconsideration 9894: 9889: 9838:Juliaaltagracia 9732: 9724: 9686: 9682: 9650: 9647: 9641: 9638: 9636: 9569: 9565: 9556: 9397: 9393: 9388: 9371: 9287: 9282: 9234: 9183:as Jgm above -- 9130: 9125: 9118: 9116: 9100: 9027:general concept 9023:general concept 8993: 8990: 8983: 8970: 8960: 8767: 8766: 8759:per #1 and per 8696: 8693: 8690: 8609: 8604: 8598: 8595: 8576: 8573: 8556: 8551: 8430: 8425: 8420: 8357: 8282:Strongly oppose 8195: 8173: 8020: 7956: 7953: 7939: 7936: 7926: 7910: 7603: 7597: 7453:parser function 7409: 7380: 6967: 6962: 6959: 6956: 6922: 6768: 6765: 6657: 6655: 6569: 6567: 6551: 6546: 6544: 6487:on my talk page 6377: 6374: 6371: 6368: 6290: 6259: 6244: 6237: 6209: 6204: 6171: 6163: 6135: 6096:for all readers 5976: 5969: 5954: 5950: 5946: 5940: 5879: 5864: 5858: 5852: 5791: 5786: 5784: 5746:Scott Mac (Doc) 5692: 5689: 5672: 5666: 5613: 5606: 5536: 5531: 5426: 5424: 5407: 5273: 5248: 5236: 5217: 5166: 5158: 4970: 4959: 4912: 4905: 4887: 4779: 4750: 4745: 4736: 4671: 4652: 4643: 4566: 4554: 4548: 4542: 4444:Septentrionalis 4403: 4395: 4388: 4374: 4370: 4361: 4349: 4332: 4298: 4291: 4286: 4230: 4225: 4222: 4154:Camaron | Chris 4118: 4113: 4108: 4106: 4041: 4035: 4021: 3874: 3867: 3833: 3828: 3731:Tarlneustaedter 3680: 3604: 3599: 3594: 3585:{{#formatdate}} 3584: 3520: 3446: 3436: 3434: 3400: 3393: 3389: 3340: 3338:user:orngjce223 3322: 3300: 3153:My support was 3109:My support was 2820: 2817: 2814: 2678: 2616:Australian Matt 2600: 2593: 2590: 2334: 2305: 2301: 2297: 2293: 2289: 2238: 2232: 2230: 2077: 1958: 1956: 1774: 1434: 1429: 1413:Henning Makholm 1396: 1391: 1383: 1262:Daniel Benfield 1224: 1215: 1199: 1194: 1101: 1089: 1083: 1024:JeremyMcCracken 844: 832: 814:Grk1011/Stephen 803: 743: 738: 736: 700:general concept 662: 581: 561: 558: 555: 465: 457: 375: 319: 315: 261: 235: 210:autoformatting 171: 83:logical fallacy 66: 37: 31: 22: 21: 20: 12: 11: 5: 14699: 14688: 14687: 14666: 14651:Charles Darwin 14647: 14646: 14644: 14640: 14639: 14638: 14637: 14636: 14635: 14634: 14633: 14632: 14631: 14630: 14629: 14628: 14627: 14626: 14625: 14624: 14623: 14591: 14590: 14589: 14588: 14587: 14586: 14585: 14584: 14583: 14582: 14581: 14580: 14579: 14578: 14577: 14576: 14541: 14540: 14539: 14538: 14537: 14536: 14535: 14534: 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14122: 14121: 14120: 14119: 14100: 14099: 14085: 14049: 14046: 14043:#Statement for 14037: 14036: 13971: 13969: 13968: 13967: 13966: 13920: 13919: 13874: 13873: 13872: 13871: 13870: 13869: 13868: 13867: 13866: 13865: 13857: 13795: 13747: 13739: 13732: 13717: 13686: 13657: 13632: 13631: 13630: 13629: 13628: 13627: 13586: 13585: 13570: 13569: 13568: 13567: 13566: 13565: 13541: 13540: 13539: 13538: 13537: 13536: 13523: 13522: 13521: 13520: 13499: 13498: 13461:, </br: --> 13453: 13452: 13421: 13420: 13408: 13407: 13406: 13405: 13404: 13403: 13383: 13382: 13381: 13380: 13379: 13378: 13369: 13368: 13367: 13366: 13365: 13364: 13355: 13354: 13353: 13352: 13351: 13350: 13338: 13337: 13336: 13335: 13290: 13289: 13239: 13238: 13237: 13236: 13235: 13234: 13233: 13232: 13231: 13230: 13229: 13228: 13190: 13179:Cabinet Office 13170: 13167:The Daily Mail 13159:The Daily Star 13124: 13123: 13122: 13121: 13120: 13088:The Daily Star 13072:The Daily Mail 12898: 12897: 12896: 12895: 12894: 12893: 12892: 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11886: 11885: 11884: 11883: 11882: 11881: 11880: 11879: 11878: 11877: 11876: 11875: 11874: 11873: 11872: 11829: 11828: 11827: 11826: 11825: 11824: 11823: 11822: 11821: 11820: 11819: 11818: 11817: 11816: 11815: 11814: 11813: 11812: 11811: 11810: 11809: 11808: 11807: 11806: 11805: 11804: 11803: 11802: 11759: 11758: 11757: 11756: 11755: 11754: 11753: 11752: 11751: 11750: 11749: 11748: 11747: 11746: 11745: 11744: 11743: 11742: 11741: 11740: 11739: 11738: 11737: 11736: 11735: 11734: 11687: 11686: 11685: 11684: 11683: 11682: 11681: 11680: 11679: 11678: 11677: 11676: 11675: 11674: 11673: 11672: 11671: 11670: 11669: 11668: 11667: 11666: 11665: 11664: 11629: 11628: 11627: 11626: 11625: 11624: 11623: 11622: 11621: 11620: 11619: 11618: 11617: 11616: 11615: 11614: 11613: 11612: 11611: 11610: 11609: 11608: 11570: 11569: 11568: 11567: 11566: 11565: 11564: 11563: 11562: 11561: 11560: 11559: 11558: 11557: 11556: 11555: 11554: 11553: 11552: 11551: 11520: 11519: 11518: 11517: 11516: 11515: 11514: 11513: 11512: 11511: 11510: 11509: 11508: 11507: 11506: 11505: 11504: 11503: 11502: 11501: 11485: 11484: 11469: 11468: 11448: 11447: 11423: 11422: 11388: 11387: 11359: 11358: 11337: 11336: 11307: 11306: 11273: 11272: 11252: 11251: 11220: 11219: 11218: 11217: 11191: 11175: 11174: 11173: 11172: 11171: 11170: 11149: 11148: 11147: 11120: 11109: 11052: 11051: 11050: 11049: 11048: 11047: 11046: 11045: 11044: 11043: 11042: 11041: 10968: 10947: 10946: 10930: 10929: 10919: 10918: 10917: 10916: 10900: 10899: 10898: 10897: 10862: 10861: 10860: 10859: 10858: 10857: 10856: 10855: 10854: 10853: 10852: 10851: 10850: 10849: 10837: 10836: 10829: 10828: 10816: 10809: 10793: 10783: 10765: 10764: 10745: 10724: 10723: 10708: 10707: 10690: 10689: 10673:autoformatting 10667: 10664: 10663: 10662: 10632: 10617: 10604: 10589: 10575: 10561: 10560: 10559: 10530: 10529: 10528: 10475: 10461: 10437:Voting Breeds 10435: 10421: 10406: 10386: 10372: 10364: 10338: 10324: 10308: 10281: 10249: 10231: 10212: 10198: 10183: 10169: 10141: 10138: 10137: 10136: 10104: 10103: 10102: 10083: 10082: 10081: 10073: 10069: 10063: 10060: 10054: 10053: 10052: 10048: 10038: 10037: 10036: 10033: 10030: 10024: 10023: 10022: 10018: 10011: 9999: 9985: 9969: 9955: 9938: 9920: 9903: 9882: 9848: 9831: 9814: 9797: 9780: 9770:A D Monroe III 9762: 9739: 9713: 9696: 9684: 9676: 9659: 9629: 9607: 9590: 9573: 9563: 9548: 9531: 9513: 9495: 9478: 9461: 9444: 9427: 9406: 9380: 9364: 9347: 9329: 9315: 9298: 9275: 9258: 9241: 9228: 9227: 9226: 9208: 9207: 9203: 9195: 9178: 9166:per Awadewit. 9161: 9136: 9122: 9109: 9093: 9075: 9058: 9019: 9002: 8991: 8984: 8976: 8966: 8954: 8937: 8924: 8907: 8888: 8875:Edmund Patrick 8868: 8856: 8839: 8822: 8810: 8793: 8776: 8754: 8737: 8720: 8703: 8679: 8654: 8637: 8620: 8589: 8565: 8542: 8524: 8507: 8490: 8473: 8456: 8439: 8411: 8394: 8369: 8350: 8338: 8321: 8296: 8279: 8262: 8245: 8228: 8210: 8189: 8164: 8147: 8126: 8109: 8095: 8078: 8056: 8041: 8031:208.76.104.133 8024: 8012: 8003: 7986: 7969: 7945: 7937: 7919: 7903: 7885: 7872: 7855: 7838: 7821: 7804: 7787: 7770: 7753: 7736: 7719: 7701: 7684: 7667: 7646: 7628: 7611: 7587: 7570: 7535: 7518: 7501: 7484: 7467: 7457:David Göthberg 7446: 7429: 7423: 7402: 7384: 7372: 7351: 7330: 7313: 7296: 7279: 7262: 7245: 7228: 7211: 7195: 7125: 7108: 7091: 7074: 7062: 7050: 7023: 7006: 6992: 6975: 6948: 6931: 6915: 6898: 6881: 6864: 6847: 6822: 6797: 6780: 6754: 6736: 6719: 6707: 6692: 6668: 6642: 6625: 6579: 6560: 6537: 6520: 6503: 6502: 6501: 6465: 6448: 6427: 6413:Autoformatting 6407: 6386: 6361: 6344: 6327: 6310: 6298: 6277: 6252: 6229: 6217: 6196: 6179: 6156: 6139: 6131: 6116: 6088: 6076: 6075: 6074: 6039: 6038: 6037: 6013: 5997: 5985: 5962: 5933: 5916: 5901: 5877: 5871: 5844: 5843: 5842: 5800: 5769: 5751: 5742: 5719: 5701: 5680: 5652: 5635: 5620: 5599: 5582: 5565: 5547: 5524: 5506: 5481: 5463: 5437: 5414: 5399: 5382: 5364: 5347: 5334: 5317: 5300: 5285: 5265: 5253: 5244: 5226: 5209: 5192: 5175: 5138: 5121: 5111:Colonies Chris 5104: 5084: 5070: 5053: 5036: 5019: 5002: 4990: 4975: 4963: 4953: 4936: 4919: 4898: 4882: 4865: 4846: 4830: 4788: 4775: 4756: 4742: 4737:NuclearWarfare 4732: 4707: 4693:KISS principle 4686: 4657: 4650: 4636: 4611: 4590: 4573: 4562: 4534: 4522: 4501: 4471: 4454: 4433: 4412: 4379: 4368: 4348: 4345: 4344: 4343: 4325: 4307: 4279: 4238: 4216: 4199: 4185:Strong Support 4182: 4167:Strong Support 4164: 4147: 4126: 4100: 4083: 4065: 4051:Strong Support 4048: 4028: 4013: 3996: 3980: 3960: 3939: 3922: 3912:Martindelaware 3900: 3882: 3860: 3842: 3821: 3804: 3787: 3741: 3724: 3707: 3690: 3669: 3652: 3635: 3629: 3612: 3578: 3557: 3527: 3513: 3496: 3471: 3454: 3428: 3411: 3383: 3366: 3349: 3331: 3315: 3293: 3276: 3263: 3246: 3229: 3215: 3198: 3197: 3196: 3195: 3194: 3181: 3174: 3160:(in favor) ... 3151: 3150: 3149: 3138: 3131: 3124: 3121: 3116:(in favor) ... 3111:not influenced 3107: 3106: 3098: 3088: 3071: 3061:Phil_burnstein 3053: 3035: 3018: 3001: 2984: 2979: 2966: 2945: 2929: 2905: 2884: 2875: 2858: 2845: 2828: 2806: 2789: 2772: 2755: 2738: 2721: 2704: 2687: 2667: 2650: 2649: 2648: 2626: 2609: 2580: 2563: 2546: 2529: 2512: 2500: 2483: 2444: 2427: 2414:Strong Support 2411: 2394: 2379:Strong Support 2376: 2359: 2339: 2326: 2314: 2279: 2263: 2246: 2224: 2207: 2190: 2178: 2138: 2111: 2084: 2070: 2053: 2036: 2007: 1991: 1974: 1973: 1972: 1954: 1946: 1939: 1923: 1915: 1908: 1879: 1871: 1853: 1836: 1835: 1834: 1821: 1820: 1819: 1815: 1811: 1807: 1803: 1799: 1781: 1764: 1747: 1731: 1713: 1696: 1679: 1647:Strong support 1644: 1622: 1595: 1578: 1561: 1544: 1527: 1510: 1492: 1475: 1460: 1443: 1423: 1402: 1392: 1375: 1363: 1347: 1330: 1310: 1296:Strong Support 1293: 1272: 1255: 1238: 1209:Strong Support 1206: 1183: 1166: 1149: 1132: 1114: 1098: 1090:Woo pig sooie! 1075: 1061: 1038: 1016: 999: 978: 957: 940: 922: 892: 874: 853: 852: 851: 824: 807: 799: 788: 771: 754: 728: 710: 693: 676: 653: 636: 622: 605: 588: 574: 546: 529: 512: 491: 474: 450: 433: 413: 396: 379: 374: 365: 348: 342: 325: 313: 287: 268: 249: 224: 205: 187: 165: 145: 133: 116: 95: 65: 62: 61: 60: 48: 47: 41: 30: 27: 15: 9: 6: 4: 3: 2: 14698: 14684: 14680: 14676: 14671: 14667: 14665: 14664: 14660: 14656: 14652: 14645: 14642: 14641: 14622: 14618: 14614: 14609: 14608: 14607: 14606: 14605: 14604: 14603: 14602: 14601: 14600: 14599: 14598: 14597: 14596: 14595: 14594: 14593: 14592: 14575: 14571: 14568: 14561: 14557: 14556: 14555: 14554: 14553: 14552: 14551: 14550: 14549: 14548: 14547: 14546: 14545: 14544: 14543: 14542: 14523: 14522: 14521: 14520: 14519: 14518: 14517: 14516: 14515: 14514: 14513: 14512: 14511: 14510: 14509: 14508: 14490: 14489: 14488: 14487: 14486: 14485: 14484: 14483: 14482: 14481: 14480: 14479: 14478: 14477: 14476: 14475: 14460: 14456: 14452: 14447: 14446: 14445: 14444: 14443: 14442: 14441: 14440: 14439: 14438: 14437: 14436: 14435: 14434: 14421: 14417: 14414: 14408: 14407: 14406: 14405: 14404: 14403: 14402: 14401: 14400: 14399: 14398: 14397: 14379: 14376: 14373: 14370: 14369: 14367: 14364: 14361: 14358: 14357: 14356: 14355: 14354: 14353: 14352: 14351: 14350: 14349: 14348: 14347: 14346: 14345: 14331: 14327: 14323: 14322: 14321: 14320: 14319: 14318: 14317: 14316: 14315: 14314: 14313: 14312: 14298: 14294: 14293: 14292: 14291: 14290: 14289: 14288: 14287: 14286: 14285: 14284: 14283: 14272: 14268: 14264: 14259: 14258: 14257: 14256: 14255: 14254: 14253: 14252: 14251: 14250: 14241: 14237: 14234: 14227: 14226: 14221: 14218: 14217: 14216: 14215: 14214: 14213: 14212: 14211: 14200: 14199: 14198: 14197: 14196: 14195: 14194: 14193: 14183: 14182: 14181: 14180: 14179: 14178: 14177: 14176: 14169: 14165: 14161: 14157: 14153: 14152: 14151: 14150: 14149: 14148: 14143: 14139: 14136: 14130: 14126: 14125: 14124: 14123: 14118: 14114: 14111: 14104: 14103: 14102: 14101: 14098: 14094: 14090: 14086: 14084: 14081: 14080: 14067: 14066: 14065: 14064: 14060: 14057: 14044: 14041: 14035: 14030: 14029: 14025: 14017: 14012: 14008: 14007: 14006: 14005: 14001: 13997: 13992: 13987: 13985: 13981: 13977: 13972: 13965: 13964: 13959: 13955: 13954: 13947: 13946: 13945: 13938: 13935: 13930:no confusion. 13929: 13924: 13923: 13922: 13921: 13918: 13914: 13910: 13906: 13902: 13898: 13897: 13896: 13895: 13892: 13887: 13885: 13879: 13864: 13860: 13856: 13855: 13850: 13846: 13842: 13838: 13834: 13833:acceptability 13830: 13825: 13820: 13816: 13812: 13808: 13807:one newspaper 13804: 13800: 13796: 13794: 13790: 13786: 13781: 13776: 13775: 13774: 13773: 13772: 13768: 13764: 13760: 13756: 13755: 13754: 13750: 13746: 13745: 13740: 13737: 13733: 13730: 13726: 13724: 13718: 13715: 13711: 13710: 13709: 13705: 13701: 13696: 13695: 13694: 13693: 13689: 13685: 13684: 13679: 13675: 13670: 13669: 13665: 13664: 13660: 13656: 13655: 13650: 13646: 13641: 13640: 13638: 13626: 13623: 13622: 13615: 13614: 13613: 13608: 13607: 13603: 13595: 13590: 13589: 13588: 13587: 13584: 13581: 13580: 13572: 13571: 13564: 13560: 13556: 13552: 13547: 13546: 13545: 13544: 13543: 13542: 13534: 13529: 13528: 13527: 13526: 13525: 13524: 13519: 13515: 13511: 13507: 13503: 13502: 13501: 13500: 13497: 13493: 13489: 13484: 13480: 13479: 13478: 13477: 13473: 13469: 13464: 13457: 13451: 13447: 13446: 13438:Yes, it was. 13437: 13436: 13435: 13434: 13430: 13426: 13419: 13416: 13415: 13414: 13412: 13402: 13398: 13394: 13389: 13388: 13387: 13386: 13385: 13384: 13375: 13374: 13373: 13372: 13371: 13370: 13361: 13360: 13359: 13358: 13357: 13356: 13348: 13344: 13343: 13342: 13341: 13340: 13339: 13334: 13331: 13326: 13324: 13318: 13314: 13313:Statement for 13310: 13309: 13308: 13304: 13300: 13296: 13292: 13291: 13286: 13285: 13284: 13283: 13279: 13277: 13273: 13269: 13265: 13261: 13257: 13253: 13250: 13249:award-winning 13246: 13243: 13227: 13223: 13219: 13215: 13213: 13209: 13207: 13203: 13201: 13197: 13195: 13191: 13188: 13184: 13180: 13176: 13171: 13168: 13164: 13160: 13156: 13152: 13149: 13145: 13144: 13143: 13142: 13141: 13137: 13133: 13129: 13125: 13119: 13115: 13111: 13106: 13105: 13104: 13100: 13096: 13092: 13090: 13089: 13084: 13082: 13081: 13076: 13074: 13073: 13068: 13066: 13065: 13060: 13058: 13057: 13051: 13050: 13049: 13045: 13041: 13037: 13032: 13031: 13030: 13026: 13022: 13017: 13013: 13012: 13011: 13008: 13007: 12999: 12995: 12991: 12990: 12984: 12980: 12979: 12978: 12974: 12970: 12966: 12962: 12958: 12957: 12956: 12955: 12952: 12951: 12944: 12940: 12936: 12932: 12928: 12923: 12922: 12919: 12918: 12911: 12907: 12903: 12886: 12882: 12878: 12873: 12872: 12871: 12870: 12869: 12868: 12867: 12866: 12865: 12864: 12863: 12862: 12851: 12847: 12843: 12839: 12835: 12831: 12827: 12823: 12818: 12817: 12816: 12815: 12814: 12813: 12812: 12811: 12810: 12809: 12800: 12796: 12792: 12788: 12783: 12782: 12781: 12780: 12779: 12778: 12777: 12776: 12769: 12765: 12761: 12757: 12755: 12748: 12744: 12740: 12739: 12738: 12737: 12736: 12735: 12730: 12726: 12722: 12717: 12712: 12711: 12710: 12709: 12705: 12701: 12700: 12699: 12694: 12689: 12688: 12687: 12686: 12682: 12678: 12674: 12669: 12666: 12662: 12658: 12648: 12644: 12640: 12636: 12635: 12634: 12631: 12628: 12620: 12619: 12613: 12612: 12609: 12605: 12601: 12597: 12594: 12591: 12588: 12585: 12581: 12577: 12576: 12571: 12567: 12563: 12562: 12556: 12552: 12551: 12550: 12549: 12545: 12542: 12538: 12534: 12533: 12527: 12526: 12521: 12514: 12509: 12497: 12493: 12489: 12485: 12484: 12483: 12480: 12477: 12469: 12468: 12463: 12459: 12458: 12457: 12456: 12452: 12448: 12444: 12440: 12435: 12428: 12424: 12420: 12415: 12411: 12410: 12404: 12400: 12399: 12398: 12397: 12391: 12386: 12380: 12375: 12371: 12367: 12363: 12360: 12359: 12358: 12357: 12354: 12350: 12346: 12341: 12340: 12337: 12333: 12329: 12324: 12323: 12320: 12316: 12312: 12308: 12307: 12306: 12305: 12301: 12300: 12291: 12287: 12286:simple syntax 12283: 12275: 12272: 12269: 12261: 12260: 12255: 12250: 12245: 12244: 12243: 12242: 12235: 12232: 12229: 12225: 12221: 12217: 12216: 12215: 12211: 12207: 12202: 12199: 12196: 12192: 12191: 12190: 12189: 12186: 12183: 12180: 12175: 12174: 12167: 12163: 12159: 12154: 12150: 12146: 12143: 12142: 12141: 12137: 12133: 12128: 12127: 12126: 12125: 12122: 12118: 12114: 12110: 12106: 12102: 12098: 12094: 12093: 12086: 12081: 12077: 12072: 12068: 12064: 12060: 12056: 12052: 12051: 12050: 12047: 12042: 12040: 12033: 12032: 12031: 12028: 12025: 12017: 12016: 12009: 12005: 12004: 12003: 11988: 11985: 11982: 11978: 11974: 11970: 11966: 11965: 11964: 11963: 11960: 11957: 11955: 11948: 11947: 11941: 11940: 11932: 11928: 11927: 11926: 11925: 11922: 11918: 11914: 11909: 11908: 11907: 11906: 11905: 11904: 11903: 11902: 11871: 11868: 11867: 11859: 11858: 11857: 11856: 11855: 11854: 11853: 11852: 11851: 11850: 11849: 11848: 11847: 11846: 11845: 11844: 11843: 11842: 11841: 11840: 11839: 11838: 11837: 11836: 11835: 11834: 11833: 11832: 11831: 11830: 11800: 11796: 11792: 11791:false dilemma 11787: 11786: 11785: 11784: 11783: 11782: 11781: 11780: 11779: 11778: 11777: 11776: 11775: 11774: 11773: 11772: 11771: 11770: 11769: 11768: 11767: 11766: 11765: 11764: 11763: 11762: 11761: 11760: 11733: 11730: 11729: 11721: 11717: 11713: 11712: 11711: 11710: 11709: 11708: 11707: 11706: 11705: 11704: 11703: 11702: 11701: 11700: 11699: 11698: 11697: 11696: 11695: 11694: 11693: 11692: 11691: 11690: 11689: 11688: 11662: 11658: 11653: 11652: 11651: 11650: 11649: 11648: 11647: 11646: 11645: 11644: 11643: 11642: 11641: 11640: 11639: 11638: 11637: 11636: 11635: 11634: 11633: 11632: 11631: 11630: 11607: 11604: 11603: 11596: 11592: 11591: 11590: 11589: 11588: 11587: 11586: 11585: 11584: 11583: 11582: 11581: 11580: 11579: 11578: 11577: 11576: 11575: 11574: 11573: 11572: 11571: 11549: 11545: 11540: 11539: 11538: 11537: 11536: 11535: 11534: 11533: 11532: 11531: 11530: 11529: 11528: 11527: 11526: 11525: 11524: 11523: 11522: 11521: 11500: 11496: 11492: 11487: 11486: 11482: 11478: 11473: 11472: 11471: 11470: 11467: 11464: 11463: 11456: 11452: 11451: 11450: 11449: 11446: 11443: 11440: 11436: 11432: 11427: 11426: 11425: 11424: 11421: 11418: 11417: 11410: 11405: 11401: 11397: 11392: 11391: 11390: 11389: 11386: 11383: 11380: 11376: 11372: 11363: 11362: 11361: 11360: 11357: 11354: 11353: 11345: 11341: 11340: 11339: 11338: 11335: 11332: 11329: 11325: 11320: 11319:in good faith 11316: 11311: 11310: 11309: 11308: 11305: 11302: 11300: 11293: 11292: 11286: 11285: 11277: 11276: 11275: 11274: 11271: 11268: 11264: 11260: 11256: 11255: 11254: 11253: 11250: 11247: 11245: 11238: 11237: 11231: 11230: 11222: 11221: 11216: 11212: 11208: 11204: 11203: 11202: 11199: 11196: 11188: 11187: 11181: 11177: 11176: 11169: 11166: 11163: 11159: 11155: 11150: 11146: 11142: 11138: 11133: 11132: 11131: 11128: 11125: 11117: 11116: 11110: 11108: 11105: 11101: 11097: 11092: 11091: 11090: 11087: 11082: 11080: 11073: 11070: 11069: 11068: 11065: 11062: 11058: 11054: 11053: 11040: 11037: 11036: 11028: 11027: 11026: 11021: 11017: 11010: 11009: 11008: 11005: 11004: 10997: 10993: 10989: 10987: 10982: 10981: 10980: 10977: 10973: 10969: 10967: 10962: 10958: 10951: 10950: 10949: 10948: 10945: 10942: 10941: 10934: 10933: 10932: 10931: 10928: 10925: 10921: 10920: 10915: 10911: 10907: 10902: 10901: 10896: 10893: 10889: 10885: 10881: 10878: 10875: 10871: 10868: 10867: 10866: 10865: 10864: 10863: 10848: 10845: 10844:Donald Albury 10841: 10840: 10839: 10838: 10833: 10832: 10831: 10830: 10827: 10822: 10819: 10815: 10810: 10808: 10805: 10801: 10794: 10792: 10789: 10788:Donald Albury 10784: 10782: 10779: 10776: 10772: 10769: 10768: 10767: 10766: 10763: 10759: 10755: 10751: 10746: 10744: 10740: 10736: 10732: 10728: 10727: 10726: 10725: 10722: 10719: 10716: 10712: 10711: 10710: 10709: 10706: 10702: 10698: 10694: 10693: 10692: 10691: 10688: 10685: 10682: 10678: 10674: 10670: 10669: 10661: 10657: 10653: 10649: 10647: 10641: 10639: 10633: 10631: 10627: 10623: 10618: 10616: 10613: 10610: 10605: 10603: 10599: 10595: 10590: 10588: 10584: 10580: 10576: 10574: 10570: 10566: 10562: 10558: 10554: 10550: 10546: 10545: 10544: 10540: 10536: 10531: 10527: 10526: 10522: 10518: 10514: 10509: 10505: 10501: 10498:Neutral, per 10496: 10495: 10494: 10490: 10486: 10481: 10476: 10474: 10470: 10466: 10462: 10458: 10454: 10450: 10446: 10440: 10436: 10434: 10430: 10426: 10422: 10420: 10416: 10412: 10407: 10405: 10401: 10397: 10393: 10392: 10387: 10385: 10381: 10377: 10373: 10371: 10367: 10363: 10355: 10348: 10344: 10339: 10337: 10333: 10329: 10325: 10323: 10318: 10314: 10309: 10307: 10303: 10298: 10293: 10282: 10280: 10275: 10270: 10265: 10259: 10255: 10250: 10248: 10244: 10240: 10236: 10232: 10230: 10226: 10222: 10218: 10213: 10211: 10207: 10203: 10199: 10197: 10193: 10189: 10184: 10182: 10178: 10174: 10170: 10168: 10164: 10160: 10155: 10144: 10143: 10135: 10131: 10127: 10123: 10120: 10117: 10113: 10108: 10105: 10101: 10097: 10093: 10089: 10088:endless drama 10084: 10078: 10074: 10070: 10067: 10061: 10058: 10057: 10055: 10049: 10046: 10042: 10041: 10039: 10034: 10031: 10028: 10027: 10025: 10019: 10017: 10012: 10009: 10008: 10006: 10005: 10003: 10000: 9998: 9994: 9990: 9989:Peter Ballard 9986: 9984: 9981: 9976: 9970: 9968: 9964: 9960: 9956: 9954: 9951: 9946: 9942: 9939: 9937: 9933: 9929: 9924: 9921: 9919: 9915: 9911: 9907: 9904: 9902: 9899: 9897: 9892: 9886: 9883: 9881: 9878: 9872: 9866: 9861: 9856: 9852: 9849: 9847: 9843: 9839: 9835: 9832: 9830: 9826: 9822: 9818: 9815: 9813: 9809: 9805: 9801: 9798: 9796: 9792: 9788: 9784: 9781: 9779: 9775: 9771: 9766: 9763: 9761: 9757: 9754: 9747: 9743: 9740: 9738: 9735: 9730: 9727: 9721: 9717: 9714: 9712: 9708: 9704: 9700: 9697: 9695: 9690: 9688: 9680: 9677: 9675: 9671: 9667: 9663: 9660: 9658: 9655: 9653: 9644: 9633: 9630: 9628: 9624: 9620: 9616: 9611: 9608: 9606: 9602: 9598: 9594: 9591: 9589: 9585: 9581: 9577: 9574: 9572: 9568: 9561: 9559: 9552: 9549: 9547: 9543: 9539: 9535: 9532: 9530: 9526: 9522: 9517: 9514: 9512: 9508: 9504: 9499: 9496: 9494: 9490: 9486: 9482: 9479: 9477: 9473: 9469: 9465: 9462: 9460: 9456: 9452: 9451:NipplesMeCool 9448: 9447:Strong Oppose 9445: 9443: 9440: 9436: 9431: 9428: 9426: 9422: 9418: 9414: 9410: 9407: 9405: 9400: 9396: 9391: 9384: 9381: 9379: 9376: 9374: 9368: 9365: 9363: 9359: 9355: 9351: 9348: 9346: 9342: 9338: 9333: 9330: 9328: 9325: 9324: 9319: 9318:Vote for this 9316: 9314: 9310: 9306: 9302: 9299: 9297: 9294: 9292: 9291: 9285: 9279: 9276: 9274: 9270: 9266: 9262: 9259: 9257: 9253: 9249: 9245: 9242: 9240: 9237: 9232: 9229: 9225: 9221: 9220: 9214: 9210: 9209: 9204: 9200: 9199: 9196: 9194: 9190: 9186: 9182: 9179: 9177: 9173: 9169: 9165: 9162: 9160: 9156: 9152: 9148: 9144: 9140: 9137: 9135: 9132: 9128: 9121: 9113: 9110: 9108: 9105: 9103: 9097: 9094: 9092: 9088: 9084: 9079: 9076: 9074: 9070: 9066: 9062: 9059: 9057: 9053: 9049: 9045: 9040: 9036: 9032: 9028: 9024: 9020: 9018: 9014: 9010: 9006: 9003: 9001: 8989: 8988: 8980: 8977: 8974: 8969: 8963: 8958: 8955: 8953: 8949: 8945: 8941: 8938: 8936: 8933: 8928: 8925: 8923: 8919: 8915: 8911: 8908: 8906: 8902: 8898: 8892: 8889: 8887: 8883: 8882: 8876: 8872: 8869: 8867: 8864: 8860: 8857: 8855: 8851: 8847: 8843: 8840: 8838: 8834: 8830: 8826: 8823: 8821: 8818: 8814: 8811: 8809: 8805: 8801: 8797: 8794: 8792: 8788: 8784: 8780: 8777: 8775: 8772: 8771: 8762: 8758: 8755: 8753: 8749: 8745: 8741: 8738: 8736: 8732: 8728: 8727:Austin Murphy 8724: 8721: 8719: 8715: 8711: 8707: 8704: 8702: 8699: 8687: 8683: 8680: 8678: 8674: 8670: 8666: 8662: 8658: 8655: 8653: 8649: 8645: 8641: 8638: 8636: 8633: 8632: 8629: 8624: 8621: 8619: 8615: 8613: 8607: 8602: 8601: 8593: 8590: 8588: 8584: 8580: 8569: 8566: 8564: 8561: 8560: 8559: 8554: 8546: 8543: 8541: 8537: 8532: 8528: 8525: 8523: 8519: 8515: 8511: 8508: 8506: 8502: 8498: 8494: 8491: 8489: 8485: 8481: 8477: 8474: 8472: 8468: 8464: 8460: 8457: 8455: 8451: 8447: 8443: 8440: 8438: 8435: 8434: 8433: 8428: 8423: 8415: 8412: 8410: 8406: 8402: 8398: 8395: 8393: 8389: 8385: 8381: 8377: 8373: 8370: 8368: 8365: 8362: 8360: 8354: 8351: 8349: 8346: 8342: 8339: 8337: 8333: 8329: 8325: 8322: 8318: 8314: 8310: 8306: 8300: 8297: 8295: 8291: 8287: 8283: 8280: 8278: 8274: 8270: 8269:Alex Holcombe 8266: 8263: 8261: 8257: 8253: 8249: 8246: 8244: 8240: 8236: 8232: 8229: 8227: 8223: 8219: 8214: 8211: 8209: 8205: 8203: 8199: 8193: 8190: 8188: 8183: 8180: 8177: 8172: 8171:Malik Shabazz 8168: 8165: 8163: 8159: 8155: 8151: 8148: 8146: 8142: 8138: 8134: 8130: 8127: 8125: 8121: 8117: 8113: 8110: 8107: 8103: 8099: 8096: 8094: 8090: 8086: 8082: 8079: 8077: 8073: 8069: 8064: 8060: 8057: 8055: 8052: 8049: 8048:Mike Christie 8045: 8042: 8040: 8036: 8032: 8028: 8025: 8023: 8019: 8018: 8011: 8007: 8004: 8002: 7998: 7994: 7990: 7987: 7985: 7981: 7977: 7973: 7970: 7968: 7964: 7960: 7959: 7949: 7946: 7944: 7941: 7933: 7931: 7929: 7923: 7920: 7918: 7915: 7913: 7907: 7904: 7902: 7898: 7894: 7889: 7886: 7884: 7880: 7876: 7873: 7871: 7867: 7863: 7859: 7856: 7854: 7850: 7846: 7842: 7839: 7837: 7833: 7829: 7825: 7822: 7820: 7816: 7812: 7808: 7805: 7803: 7799: 7795: 7794:134.169.58.89 7791: 7788: 7786: 7782: 7778: 7774: 7771: 7769: 7765: 7761: 7757: 7754: 7752: 7748: 7744: 7740: 7737: 7735: 7731: 7727: 7723: 7720: 7718: 7714: 7710: 7705: 7702: 7700: 7696: 7692: 7688: 7685: 7683: 7679: 7675: 7671: 7668: 7666: 7662: 7658: 7655:is anathema. 7654: 7650: 7647: 7645: 7641: 7637: 7632: 7629: 7627: 7623: 7619: 7615: 7612: 7610: 7607: 7606: 7601: 7600: 7591: 7588: 7586: 7582: 7578: 7577:hamiltonstone 7574: 7571: 7569: 7564: 7560: 7556: 7552: 7548: 7543: 7539: 7536: 7534: 7530: 7526: 7522: 7519: 7517: 7513: 7509: 7505: 7502: 7500: 7496: 7492: 7488: 7485: 7483: 7479: 7475: 7471: 7468: 7466: 7462: 7458: 7454: 7450: 7447: 7445: 7441: 7437: 7433: 7430: 7427: 7424: 7422: 7418: 7414: 7412: 7406: 7403: 7401: 7397: 7393: 7389: 7385: 7383: 7379: 7375: 7371: 7363: 7359: 7355: 7352: 7350: 7346: 7342: 7338: 7334: 7331: 7329: 7325: 7321: 7317: 7314: 7312: 7308: 7304: 7300: 7297: 7295: 7291: 7287: 7283: 7280: 7278: 7274: 7270: 7266: 7263: 7261: 7257: 7253: 7249: 7246: 7244: 7240: 7236: 7232: 7229: 7227: 7223: 7219: 7215: 7212: 7210: 7207: 7203: 7199: 7196: 7194: 7190: 7186: 7181: 7179: 7175: 7173: 7169: 7167: 7163: 7161: 7157: 7155: 7151: 7149: 7145: 7143: 7139: 7137: 7133: 7129: 7126: 7124: 7120: 7116: 7112: 7109: 7107: 7103: 7099: 7095: 7092: 7090: 7086: 7082: 7078: 7075: 7073: 7070: 7066: 7063: 7061: 7058: 7054: 7051: 7049: 7045: 7041: 7037: 7033: 7028: 7027:Template:Date 7024: 7022: 7018: 7014: 7010: 7007: 7005: 7001: 6997: 6993: 6991: 6987: 6983: 6979: 6976: 6974: 6971: 6970: 6965: 6952: 6949: 6947: 6943: 6939: 6935: 6932: 6930: 6925: 6919: 6916: 6914: 6910: 6906: 6902: 6899: 6897: 6893: 6889: 6885: 6882: 6880: 6876: 6872: 6868: 6865: 6863: 6859: 6855: 6851: 6848: 6846: 6842: 6838: 6834: 6830: 6826: 6823: 6821: 6817: 6813: 6809: 6805: 6804:vast majority 6801: 6798: 6796: 6792: 6788: 6784: 6781: 6779: 6775: 6772: 6771: 6762: 6758: 6755: 6753: 6749: 6745: 6740: 6737: 6735: 6731: 6727: 6723: 6720: 6718: 6715: 6711: 6708: 6706: 6703: 6700: 6696: 6693: 6691: 6687: 6683: 6679: 6675: 6674: 6669: 6667: 6662: 6660: 6651: 6647: 6643: 6641: 6637: 6633: 6629: 6626: 6624: 6620: 6616: 6612: 6607: 6603: 6599: 6595: 6591: 6587: 6583: 6580: 6578: 6574: 6564: 6561: 6559: 6554: 6549: 6541: 6538: 6536: 6532: 6528: 6524: 6521: 6519: 6515: 6511: 6507: 6504: 6500: 6496: 6492: 6488: 6484: 6483: 6482: 6478: 6474: 6469: 6466: 6464: 6460: 6456: 6452: 6449: 6447: 6443: 6439: 6435: 6431: 6428: 6426: 6422: 6418: 6414: 6411: 6408: 6406: 6403: 6400: 6396: 6391: 6387: 6385: 6382: 6380: 6365: 6362: 6360: 6356: 6352: 6348: 6345: 6343: 6339: 6335: 6331: 6328: 6326: 6322: 6318: 6314: 6311: 6309: 6306: 6302: 6299: 6297: 6294: 6293: 6285: 6281: 6278: 6276: 6272: 6269: 6266: 6262: 6256: 6253: 6251: 6247: 6241: 6240: 6233: 6230: 6228: 6225: 6221: 6218: 6216: 6213: 6212: 6207: 6200: 6197: 6195: 6191: 6187: 6186:Wildhartlivie 6183: 6180: 6178: 6175: 6168: 6166: 6160: 6157: 6155: 6151: 6147: 6143: 6140: 6138: 6134: 6129: 6125: 6120: 6117: 6115: 6110: 6106: 6101: 6097: 6092: 6089: 6087: 6084: 6080: 6077: 6073: 6069: 6065: 6061: 6057: 6056: 6055: 6051: 6047: 6043: 6040: 6035: 6032: 6027: 6026: 6025: 6022: 6017: 6014: 6012: 6008: 6004: 6001: 5998: 5996: 5993: 5989: 5986: 5984: 5981: 5979: 5974: 5972: 5966: 5963: 5961: 5958: 5953: 5943: 5937: 5934: 5932: 5928: 5924: 5920: 5917: 5915: 5912: 5909: 5905: 5902: 5900: 5896: 5895: 5890: 5888: 5885: 5882: 5875: 5872: 5870: 5867: 5861: 5856: 5855: 5848: 5845: 5841: 5836: 5831: 5830:RupertMillard 5825: 5821: 5820: 5819: 5814: 5809: 5808:RupertMillard 5804: 5801: 5799: 5796: 5794: 5789: 5781: 5777: 5773: 5770: 5768: 5764: 5760: 5755: 5752: 5750: 5747: 5743: 5741: 5736: 5732: 5727: 5723: 5720: 5718: 5714: 5710: 5705: 5702: 5700: 5696: 5695: 5684: 5681: 5679: 5676: 5675: 5669: 5660: 5656: 5653: 5651: 5647: 5643: 5639: 5636: 5634: 5631: 5630: 5624: 5621: 5619: 5616: 5611: 5609: 5603: 5600: 5598: 5594: 5590: 5586: 5583: 5581: 5577: 5573: 5569: 5566: 5564: 5560: 5556: 5552:<sigh: --> 5551: 5548: 5546: 5543: 5541: 5540: 5534: 5528: 5525: 5523: 5519: 5515: 5510: 5507: 5505: 5501: 5500: 5495: 5494: 5489: 5485: 5482: 5480: 5476: 5472: 5467: 5464: 5462: 5458: 5454: 5450: 5446: 5441: 5438: 5436: 5433: 5432: 5429: 5418: 5415: 5413: 5410: 5403: 5400: 5398: 5394: 5390: 5386: 5383: 5381: 5377: 5373: 5368: 5365: 5363: 5359: 5355: 5351: 5348: 5346: 5343: 5338: 5335: 5333: 5329: 5325: 5321: 5318: 5316: 5312: 5308: 5304: 5301: 5299: 5296: 5293: 5289: 5286: 5284: 5280: 5276: 5269: 5266: 5264: 5261: 5257: 5254: 5252: 5247: 5241: 5240: 5230: 5227: 5225: 5222: 5220: 5213: 5210: 5208: 5204: 5200: 5196: 5193: 5191: 5187: 5183: 5179: 5176: 5174: 5170: 5169: 5162: 5156: 5153: 5150: 5146: 5142: 5139: 5137: 5133: 5129: 5125: 5122: 5120: 5116: 5112: 5108: 5105: 5103: 5100: 5099: 5094: 5093: 5088: 5085: 5083: 5079: 5075: 5071: 5069: 5065: 5061: 5057: 5054: 5052: 5048: 5044: 5040: 5037: 5035: 5031: 5027: 5023: 5020: 5018: 5014: 5010: 5006: 5003: 5001: 4998: 4994: 4991: 4989: 4986: 4983: 4979: 4976: 4974: 4969: 4966: 4962: 4957: 4954: 4952: 4948: 4944: 4940: 4937: 4935: 4931: 4927: 4923: 4920: 4918: 4915: 4910: 4908: 4902: 4899: 4897: 4894: 4890: 4883: 4881: 4877: 4873: 4869: 4866: 4863: 4859: 4855: 4850: 4847: 4845: 4842: 4838: 4834: 4831: 4829: 4825: 4821: 4817: 4815: 4813: 4810: 4804: 4800: 4796: 4792: 4789: 4787: 4783: 4778: 4773: 4768: 4764: 4760: 4757: 4755: 4752: 4751: 4748: 4739: 4733: 4731: 4727: 4723: 4719: 4715: 4711: 4708: 4706: 4702: 4698: 4694: 4690: 4687: 4685: 4680: 4676: 4675: 4669: 4665: 4661: 4658: 4656: 4653: 4648: 4646: 4640: 4637: 4634: 4631: 4627: 4623: 4619: 4615: 4612: 4610: 4606: 4602: 4598: 4594: 4591: 4589: 4585: 4581: 4577: 4574: 4572: 4569: 4563: 4561: 4557: 4551: 4545: 4538: 4535: 4533: 4530: 4529:Donald Albury 4526: 4523: 4521: 4517: 4513: 4509: 4505: 4502: 4500: 4496: 4492: 4488: 4484: 4479: 4475: 4472: 4470: 4466: 4462: 4458: 4455: 4453: 4449: 4445: 4441: 4437: 4436:Weakly oppose 4434: 4432: 4428: 4424: 4420: 4416: 4413: 4411: 4408: 4406: 4399: 4398: 4392: 4391: 4383: 4380: 4378: 4373: 4367: 4364: 4363:Steve Crossin 4358: 4354: 4351: 4350: 4342: 4339: 4337: 4336: 4329: 4326: 4324: 4320: 4316: 4311: 4308: 4306: 4301: 4294: 4289: 4283: 4280: 4278: 4274: 4270: 4266: 4265:i18n and L10n 4262: 4258: 4254: 4250: 4246: 4242: 4239: 4237: 4233: 4228: 4220: 4217: 4215: 4211: 4207: 4203: 4200: 4198: 4194: 4190: 4186: 4183: 4181: 4178: 4177: 4172: 4168: 4165: 4163: 4159: 4155: 4151: 4148: 4146: 4142: 4138: 4134: 4130: 4127: 4125: 4121: 4116: 4111: 4104: 4101: 4099: 4095: 4091: 4087: 4084: 4082: 4078: 4074: 4069: 4066: 4064: 4060: 4056: 4052: 4049: 4047: 4044: 4038: 4032: 4029: 4027: 4024: 4017: 4014: 4012: 4008: 4004: 4000: 3997: 3995: 3992: 3988: 3984: 3981: 3979: 3976: 3972: 3968: 3967:Gavin Collins 3964: 3961: 3959: 3955: 3951: 3947: 3943: 3940: 3938: 3934: 3930: 3926: 3923: 3921: 3917: 3913: 3909: 3904: 3901: 3899: 3895: 3891: 3886: 3883: 3881: 3878: 3876: 3872: 3870: 3864: 3861: 3859: 3855: 3851: 3846: 3843: 3841: 3838: 3836: 3831: 3825: 3822: 3820: 3816: 3812: 3808: 3805: 3803: 3799: 3795: 3791: 3788: 3786: 3782: 3778: 3774: 3770: 3766: 3762: 3761:featured list 3758: 3754: 3749: 3745: 3742: 3740: 3736: 3732: 3728: 3725: 3723: 3719: 3715: 3711: 3708: 3706: 3702: 3698: 3694: 3691: 3689: 3685: 3683: 3677: 3673: 3670: 3668: 3664: 3660: 3656: 3653: 3651: 3647: 3643: 3639: 3636: 3633: 3630: 3628: 3624: 3620: 3616: 3613: 3611: 3608: 3607: 3602: 3597: 3590: 3582: 3579: 3577: 3573: 3569: 3565: 3561: 3558: 3556: 3552: 3548: 3544: 3539: 3535: 3531: 3528: 3526: 3523: 3517: 3514: 3512: 3508: 3504: 3500: 3497: 3493: 3489: 3485: 3481: 3475: 3472: 3470: 3466: 3462: 3458: 3455: 3453: 3449: 3444: 3443: 3439: 3432: 3429: 3427: 3423: 3419: 3418:MightyWarrior 3415: 3412: 3410: 3407: 3405: 3404: 3398: 3397: 3387: 3384: 3382: 3378: 3374: 3370: 3367: 3365: 3361: 3357: 3353: 3350: 3348: 3345: 3339: 3335: 3332: 3330: 3327: 3325: 3319: 3316: 3314: 3310: 3306: 3305:Carolina wren 3297: 3294: 3292: 3288: 3284: 3280: 3277: 3275: 3272: 3267: 3264: 3262: 3258: 3254: 3250: 3247: 3245: 3241: 3237: 3233: 3230: 3228: 3224: 3220: 3216: 3214: 3210: 3206: 3202: 3199: 3193: 3189: 3185: 3179: 3175: 3173: 3169: 3165: 3164: 3159: 3158: 3156: 3152: 3147: 3143: 3139: 3136: 3132: 3129: 3126:(against) ... 3125: 3122: 3119: 3115: 3114: 3112: 3108: 3104: 3100: 3099: 3096: 3092: 3089: 3087: 3083: 3079: 3075: 3072: 3070: 3066: 3062: 3057: 3054: 3052: 3048: 3044: 3039: 3036: 3034: 3030: 3026: 3022: 3019: 3017: 3013: 3009: 3005: 3002: 3000: 2996: 2992: 2988: 2985: 2983: 2980: 2978: 2977: 2973: 2970: 2967: 2965: 2961: 2957: 2953: 2949: 2946: 2944: 2941: 2937: 2933: 2930: 2928: 2924: 2920: 2916: 2913: 2909: 2906: 2904: 2900: 2896: 2892: 2888: 2885: 2883: 2879: 2876: 2874: 2870: 2866: 2862: 2859: 2857: 2853: 2849: 2846: 2844: 2840: 2836: 2832: 2829: 2827: 2824: 2823: 2810: 2807: 2805: 2801: 2797: 2793: 2790: 2788: 2784: 2780: 2776: 2773: 2771: 2767: 2763: 2759: 2756: 2754: 2750: 2746: 2742: 2739: 2737: 2733: 2729: 2725: 2722: 2720: 2716: 2712: 2708: 2705: 2703: 2699: 2695: 2691: 2688: 2686: 2682: 2681: 2671: 2668: 2666: 2662: 2658: 2654: 2651: 2647: 2643: 2639: 2634: 2633: 2630: 2627: 2625: 2621: 2617: 2613: 2610: 2608: 2604: 2603: 2601:(make my day) 2597: 2596: 2588: 2584: 2581: 2579: 2575: 2571: 2567: 2564: 2562: 2558: 2554: 2550: 2547: 2545: 2541: 2537: 2533: 2530: 2528: 2524: 2520: 2516: 2513: 2511: 2508: 2504: 2501: 2499: 2495: 2491: 2487: 2484: 2482: 2478: 2474: 2470: 2469: 2463: 2462: 2457: 2456: 2451: 2450: 2445: 2443: 2439: 2435: 2434:Northernhenge 2431: 2428: 2426: 2423: 2420: 2417:originally.-- 2415: 2412: 2410: 2406: 2402: 2398: 2395: 2393: 2389: 2385: 2380: 2377: 2375: 2371: 2367: 2363: 2360: 2358: 2354: 2348: 2343: 2340: 2338: 2335: 2333: 2329: 2325: 2324: 2323:Ed Fitzgerald 2318: 2315: 2313: 2310: 2283: 2280: 2278: 2275: 2272: 2267: 2264: 2262: 2258: 2254: 2253:Eclecticology 2250: 2247: 2245: 2241: 2235: 2228: 2225: 2223: 2219: 2215: 2211: 2208: 2206: 2202: 2198: 2194: 2191: 2189: 2186: 2182: 2179: 2177: 2173: 2169: 2164: 2160: 2155: 2150: 2146: 2142: 2139: 2137: 2133: 2130: 2127: 2123: 2119: 2115: 2112: 2110: 2106: 2102: 2098: 2093: 2088: 2085: 2083: 2080: 2078:Nightstallion 2074: 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1493: 1491: 1487: 1483: 1482:Old Moonraker 1479: 1476: 1474: 1470: 1467: 1464: 1461: 1459: 1455: 1451: 1450:GraemeLeggett 1447: 1444: 1442: 1438: 1437: 1432: 1424: 1422: 1418: 1414: 1410: 1406: 1403: 1401: 1398: 1389: 1387: 1386: 1379: 1376: 1374: 1371: 1367: 1364: 1362: 1359: 1355: 1351: 1348: 1346: 1342: 1338: 1334: 1331: 1329: 1324: 1319: 1315: 1311: 1309: 1305: 1301: 1297: 1294: 1292: 1289: 1285: 1281: 1276: 1273: 1271: 1267: 1263: 1259: 1256: 1254: 1250: 1246: 1242: 1239: 1237: 1234: 1233: 1230: 1229: 1227: 1221: 1220: 1218: 1210: 1207: 1205: 1202: 1197: 1191: 1187: 1184: 1182: 1178: 1174: 1170: 1167: 1165: 1161: 1157: 1156:RossPatterson 1153: 1150: 1148: 1144: 1140: 1136: 1133: 1131: 1127: 1123: 1118: 1115: 1113: 1109: 1104: 1099: 1097: 1096: 1093: 1092: 1086: 1079: 1076: 1073: 1069: 1065: 1062: 1060: 1056: 1053: 1050: 1046: 1042: 1039: 1037: 1033: 1029: 1025: 1020: 1017: 1015: 1011: 1007: 1003: 1000: 998: 994: 990: 986: 982: 979: 977: 973: 969: 965: 961: 958: 956: 952: 948: 944: 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243: 239: 232: 228: 225: 223: 220: 217: 213: 209: 206: 204: 200: 196: 191: 188: 186: 182: 181: 179: 174: 169: 166: 164: 159: 154: 153:Hurricanehink 149: 146: 144: 141: 137: 134: 132: 128: 124: 120: 117: 115: 111: 107: 103: 99: 96: 94: 91: 88: 84: 80: 75: 71: 68: 67: 59: 57: 52: 51: 46: 42: 35: 34: 26: 19: 14670: 14648: 14564: 14559: 14410: 14326:WP:COPYRIGHT 14230: 14223: 14219: 14132: 14107: 14070: 14053: 14039: 14038: 14022: 13990: 13988: 13973: 13970: 13951: 13942: 13941: 13939: 13933: 13931: 13927: 13904: 13900: 13883: 13877: 13875: 13853: 13848: 13844: 13840: 13836: 13832: 13831:, not about 13828: 13823: 13818: 13814: 13802: 13798: 13779: 13763:Phil Bridger 13758: 13743: 13735: 13728: 13723:HTTP headers 13720: 13713: 13700:Phil Bridger 13682: 13678:HTTP headers 13671: 13667: 13666: 13653: 13642: 13636: 13634: 13633: 13618: 13600: 13576: 13550: 13505: 13482: 13459: 13455: 13454: 13440: 13422: 13417: 13410: 13409: 13346: 13322: 13316: 13312: 13294: 13281: 13280: 13264:his language 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11281: 11241: 11233: 11226: 11189: 11184: 11179: 11153: 11118: 11113: 11078: 11071: 11056: 11032: 11000: 10995: 10991: 10985: 10984: 10937: 10876: 10799:Juliancolton 10771:Arthur Rubin 10749: 10730: 10715:Arthur Rubin 10676: 10672: 10645: 10643: 10637: 10635: 10594:Ham Pastrami 10512: 10497: 10443:— Preceding 10439:Sock Puppets 10390: 10389: 10362:ΖαππερΝαππερ 10342: 10253: 10234: 10153: 10118: 10112:Phil Bridger 10107:Weak oppose. 10106: 10076: 10065: 10001: 9940: 9922: 9905: 9895: 9890: 9884: 9859: 9854: 9850: 9833: 9816: 9799: 9782: 9764: 9750: 9745: 9741: 9725: 9715: 9698: 9678: 9661: 9635: 9631: 9614: 9609: 9592: 9575: 9558:Do U(knome)? 9557: 9550: 9533: 9515: 9497: 9480: 9463: 9446: 9429: 9412: 9408: 9382: 9372: 9366: 9349: 9331: 9323:Geometry guy 9321: 9317: 9300: 9289: 9288: 9277: 9260: 9243: 9230: 9218: 9180: 9163: 9146: 9142: 9138: 9115: 9111: 9101: 9095: 9077: 9060: 9043: 9038: 9034: 9030: 9026: 9022: 9004: 8985: 8978: 8956: 8939: 8926: 8909: 8890: 8880: 8870: 8858: 8846:Calliopejen1 8841: 8824: 8812: 8795: 8778: 8764: 8760: 8756: 8739: 8722: 8710:Annihilatron 8705: 8681: 8656: 8639: 8626: 8622: 8611: 8597: 8591: 8567: 8549: 8548: 8544: 8526: 8509: 8492: 8475: 8458: 8441: 8421:bibliomaniac 8418: 8417: 8413: 8396: 8371: 8363: 8356: 8352: 8340: 8323: 8303:— Preceding 8298: 8281: 8264: 8247: 8230: 8212: 8196: 8191: 8178: 8166: 8149: 8128: 8111: 8097: 8080: 8062: 8058: 8043: 8026: 8014: 8005: 7988: 7971: 7952: 7947: 7927: 7921: 7911: 7905: 7887: 7874: 7857: 7840: 7823: 7806: 7789: 7772: 7755: 7738: 7721: 7703: 7686: 7669: 7652: 7648: 7630: 7613: 7594: 7593: 7589: 7572: 7542:TonyTheTiger 7537: 7520: 7508:Brianboulton 7503: 7486: 7469: 7448: 7431: 7425: 7410: 7404: 7387: 7361: 7357: 7353: 7332: 7315: 7298: 7284:—True cwap. 7281: 7264: 7247: 7230: 7213: 7197: 7185:Phil Bridger 7172:Toronto Star 7142:The Guardian 7127: 7110: 7093: 7081:Magioladitis 7076: 7064: 7052: 7035: 7031: 7008: 6977: 6954: 6950: 6938:David Brooks 6933: 6917: 6900: 6883: 6866: 6849: 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5123: 5106: 5096: 5090: 5086: 5055: 5038: 5021: 5004: 4992: 4977: 4955: 4938: 4921: 4906: 4900: 4888:Juliancolton 4867: 4848: 4832: 4806: 4802: 4790: 4766: 4762: 4758: 4741: 4740: 4709: 4688: 4672: 4659: 4638: 4621: 4613: 4596: 4592: 4575: 4536: 4524: 4503: 4473: 4456: 4435: 4414: 4402: 4394: 4387: 4381: 4365: 4357:Brion thinks 4352: 4334: 4333: 4327: 4309: 4287: 4281: 4263:in terms of 4249:such as this 4240: 4218: 4201: 4184: 4174: 4166: 4149: 4132: 4128: 4102: 4085: 4067: 4050: 4030: 4015: 3998: 3982: 3962: 3941: 3924: 3902: 3884: 3875: 3868: 3862: 3844: 3834: 3823: 3806: 3789: 3764: 3747: 3743: 3726: 3709: 3692: 3681: 3676:Alinnisawest 3671: 3654: 3637: 3631: 3614: 3592: 3580: 3559: 3542: 3537: 3533: 3529: 3515: 3498: 3478:— Preceding 3473: 3456: 3440: 3430: 3413: 3402: 3401: 3395: 3394: 3385: 3368: 3351: 3333: 3317: 3295: 3278: 3265: 3253:Brian Powell 3248: 3231: 3200: 3177: 3171: 3168:weak support 3167: 3161: 3154: 3145: 3141: 3134: 3127: 3117: 3110: 3103:strengthened 3102: 3094: 3091:Weak Support 3090: 3073: 3055: 3037: 3020: 3003: 2986: 2975: 2974: 2968: 2951: 2947: 2931: 2914: 2911: 2907: 2890: 2886: 2877: 2860: 2851: 2847: 2830: 2813: 2808: 2791: 2774: 2757: 2740: 2723: 2706: 2694:Dampinograaf 2689: 2676: 2675: 2669: 2652: 2628: 2611: 2599: 2592: 2586: 2582: 2565: 2548: 2531: 2514: 2502: 2485: 2467: 2466: 2460: 2459: 2454: 2453: 2448: 2447: 2429: 2413: 2396: 2378: 2361: 2341: 2321: 2320: 2317:Weak support 2316: 2281: 2265: 2248: 2226: 2209: 2192: 2180: 2162: 2158: 2153: 2148: 2144: 2140: 2128: 2117: 2113: 2096: 2086: 2072: 2055: 2038: 2013: 2011: 1993: 1976: 1961: 1959: 1949: 1942: 1935: 1931: 1926: 1918: 1911: 1904: 1895: 1891: 1887: 1882: 1874: 1867: 1855: 1838: 1783: 1766: 1749: 1733: 1715: 1698: 1681: 1670: 1662: 1658: 1654: 1650: 1646: 1628: 1624: 1607:non-sequitur 1601: 1597: 1580: 1568:Showtime2009 1563: 1551:Analogue Kid 1546: 1529: 1512: 1494: 1477: 1462: 1445: 1427: 1408: 1404: 1381: 1377: 1365: 1354:my talk page 1349: 1332: 1313: 1295: 1274: 1257: 1240: 1232: 1225: 1223: 1216: 1214: 1208: 1185: 1168: 1151: 1134: 1116: 1087: 1081: 1077: 1070:, 2009-03-30 1063: 1051: 1040: 1018: 1001: 984: 980: 959: 942: 924: 894: 876: 864: 863: 855: 826: 809: 795: 790: 773: 756: 744: 739: 730: 712: 705:Orderinchaos 699: 695: 678: 670:(Contact me) 661: 655: 638: 607: 595:the Sidhekin 590: 576: 554: 548: 531: 514: 497: 493: 476: 452: 435: 415: 403:billinghurst 398: 381: 367: 350: 344: 327: 311: 306: 302: 298: 293: 289: 274: 270: 226: 216:Arthur Rubin 211: 207: 189: 177: 176: 167: 147: 135: 118: 101: 97: 73: 69: 55: 53: 44: 25: 14677:. 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