6214:
articles about one side is only a fraction of what occurs on articles about the other. This situation is perpetuated as new good-faith editors trying to balance the content often face aggressive behavior such as strong CTOP messages from
Selfstudier followed by inquiries how did they find this and that article, "previous accounts" questions from Nableezy, accusations of "gaming the system to achieve EC status" from Iskandar323 on noticeboards, and as we seen in the last month, unverified tag-teaming allegations from Levivich. Those who survive all of the above then find their user talk pages filled with allegations, insults and other kinds of personal attacks and aspersions. Even five edits in this topic area can provoke such reactions. WP:ONUS and WP:CONSENSUS are ignored - they are applied only to others. RfCs, AfDs, and RMs are manipulated through mass bludgeoning. They blame others for edit warring - but this is exactly what they are doing. Based on my experience with these editors over several months, I am afraid it would be naive to think that simply limiting word count in discussions would solve the problem. Looking over their logs, many of these editors already have a long history of warnings and short-term topic bans, so something else must be done this time.
7443:, the 100 revision (in namespaces 0,1) cut off makes these results a particular way of looking at the topic area. Without the limit, the topic area looks a bit different. For example, from 2022-01-01 to the present there were 44739 distinct actors (excluding bots) that made at least 1 edit to a topic area article or talk page. 'Actor' rather than 'user' because that includes 23124 distinct unregistered IPs. And the total number of revisions to those 2 namespaces was 473212 in that period, which is considerably more than the sum of the PIA column in the stats. So, for me, this way of looking at events in the topic area with an edit count cutoff and a notion of dominant contributors presupposes things about the actual nature of the topic area. It divides contributions up in way that is great for pointing fingers in a partisan information war but may not reflect reality very well. From a single account 'contributor' perspective it seems to be the contributors with low edit counts that may have the largest impact on topic area (although it is impossible to really tell). I'll make some plots for the entire topic area over various periods to show who is doing the editing (in terms of account age) when I get a chance.
10642:
they feel a profound emotional attachment (again, understandably, but love of country is not coterminous with love of any one particular government and/or its worldviews). To respin the disputes that arise as an irremediable clash between nationalist POVs is nonsense, but that is the temptation here. And, if this goes to ARBPIA5, the outcome is predictable. There will be two parties identified (regulars and nationalists/socks), and a number from each will be sanctioned, for wikipedia must not give the impression, particularly under the pressures over the last year, of siding with one 'side' or t'other. And why have we got to this? Because an innonative reading, impeccably 'behaviouralist' now takes all reverts, regardless of the rationales, to be on the same footing, and any series of reverts by different editors, regardless of the talk page or the RS literature (the contexts), as evidence of mutual tag-teaming. of course, there will also be a further tightening of the screws on 'behaviour', since everything else is considered a 'content issue' where it is presumed there are a variety of POVs that are, in any case, not up to admins to read up on or make judgments about.
10411:
the default RS, you are not going to grasp anything there for encyclopedic ends. Who would be so stupid, if their intention was to 'create a toxic battleground', spend decades reading hundreds of books and scholarly articles, when they could simply do what hundreds of SPA and socks do, rack up 500 edits and then, without losing time opening a book, and if caught out, sock, resock, and resock again, in order to sock the 'regular' editors with their opinions, and try to provoke them so they may garner evidence for destroying them at AE?). There is no evidence here, none, as far as I can see, but no doubt some will think, ‘ah, but they’ll find the missing proof for these claims when Arbcom gets to work’. And why should it work on such an outburst of unproven grievances? As I noted on my page, there is a very simple test to find evidence for this hypothesis of a conspiracy (against Israel, that is the tacit innuendo in those complaints above)/bullishly dominating control over IP articles by a 'pro-Palestinian' faction that has putatively consolidated itself as the power to reckon with in the area. Use your wiki tools and elicit confirmation of this bias by examining
9438:(emphasis added) I supported coming here because I think AE is ill-suited to a multi-party sprawling request like this. I actually think האופה is the least important party here in most ways and if the thread had stayed constrained to them a rough consensus would have been found. Instead, the discussion ballooned to potential misconduct by multiple other editors. For me the editors whose conduct needs examining would be BilledMammal, Iskandar323, Nableezy, and Selfstudier and I think ArbCom should review, and hopefully endorse, the work SFR has been doing as an uninvolved administrator given the concerns at least one of the parties (Nableezy) has raised about that work. Additionally, I think Levivich has been promoting, in this and some other recent AE reports, claims of misconduct based on tagteaming/edit warring that I personally don't find convincing (even if the same conduct does show other misconduct I do find convincing, namely a battleground mentality) but which ArbCom is better positioned to examine both because it can do so comprehensively, rather than in a series of one-off AE requests, and because of the authority ArbCom has to
11951:
long-term tag-teaming, POV pushing and the ineffectiveness of current tools to stop this should be looked at. From my nearly 20 years' experience, the main issue has always been that there is a core group of 10-15 editors in this topic area (many of whom have been with us for well over a decade) who are primarily on
Knowledge to push their POV – anyone can look at their contribution histories and see that their contributions are primarily adding things that make their side look good/the other look bad and deleting information to the contrary; in discussions such as RMs, RfCs or AfDs, their stances are easily predicted based on their editing history. A further issue is that for most of the last two decades the two sides have been seriously mismatched in terms of numbers and one side has been consistently able to push their POV through weight of numbers, either by long-term tag teaming or by swinging poorly-attended discussions (and in my view the 30/500 restriction has actively worsened this situation by giving the long-term problematic editors an advantage).
15493:. I would also welcome direct case requests or AE referrals if there are allegations that a particular editor is behaving tendentiously (ie, the sum of their contributions is disruptive even if no one diff in isolation is sanctionable) and AE admins are unable to reach a conclusion. And something that stood out to me from AHJ (and which I've been reminded of, reading some of the comments above about how knowledgeable many Wikipedians are on their chosen subject) was the analysis of sources; I didn't think it was ArbCom's place to be doing that analysis itself, but but it could be valuable to have an agreed baseline of what the academic literature says, which (aside from being useful in itself) would then support (or refute) allegations of source misrepresentation. One final thing we could do is avoid the use of news media and primary reporting in articles on current events (this could potentially be done by consensus, or ArbCom writ, or part of the suite of sanctions administrators have available and applied article by article).
7882:
cannot really understand why anybody thinks they should be even higher. Enforcd BRD is basically making what a skilled obstructionist can turn into a glacial place into an ice age. How would consensus be determined? Do only discussions with uninvolved admins closing get resolved? Things that would actually help? A quicker trigger finger on talk page bans for foruming. Same for pushing unsourced views. The anti-bludgeoning one is good in theory, maybe good in practice maybe not. Can find out I guess. But the enforced BRD one I think is accepting that anybody who can wikilawyer well enough will be able to freeze an article; Oh its a V failure ... Oh, I see the source, well VNOT, and it is not DUE ... Well I see it's widely cited but it still is not NPOV ... No, I dont have any sources showing that its views are challenged, I think you should first demonstrate that all sources agree with this POV ... Well I disagree, and ONUS requires consensus and because I disagree there is no consensus. And repeat.
10938:@Arkon. Whatever the outcome, I think this lengthy exchange of views, explorations of so many standard terms used to (mis)characterize what goes on in the putatively 'toxic' IP area, has been very useful. Instead of the intrinsic litigiousness of standard AE/ANI reports, this has been a productive (?hmm many will think TLDR perhaps) exploration in civilised dialogue, yeah with the odd edge of irritation or annoyance showing through, but that's picayune compared to the overall tone, of issues that we've never had quite the time to look into. The emergence of toolkit algorithmically generated evidence also was refreshing, an attempt, even if in my view, not quite as successful as one would like, to get a minimal empirical handle on what often is read as mere opinionizing. The rules of etiquette and strict topic focus all too often hinder discussions of what is really on editors' mind, before a community and its arbiters, and it is all to the good that we have been afforded this opportunity.
7165:
page, so I'm not sure where I'm going wrong. But regarding methodology, the including "all editors with more than 500 edits since 2022 who have made 50%+ of their edits in the ARBPIA topic area" will inevitably miss a lot. Perhaps it is unavoidable to some extent. It misses the contributions of AndresHerutJaim's socks for example (the cause of a previous ArbCom case about canvassing). By my count, their socks made 1927 revisions spread over 159 accounts since 2022 to articles and talk pages within the topic area (using the same definition of the topic area as BilledMammal). If you choose revisions since 2020 it's 3703, and since 2018 it's 6504, and I'm not sure any of the accounts would cross the 50% in topic area threshold. And that's just the identified accounts for one sock edit source. We have no idea what the success rate is for sock identification. And somewhat dishearteningly I can see several more (what I regard as) possible socks in the activity statistics.
10526:
bludgeoner, then recalling the earlier episode where they abused their admin tools and damaged my bona fides is more than fair. I was a newbie at that time (that shows in my remarks there), and was almost driven off by the arbitrary punitive measures made against me. I don't hold grudges because I made no formal complaint, which might have damaged you, and I have almost never had recourse, on principle, to making ANI/AE reports to settle disputes by getting someone who disagrees with me banned, a practice that is of chronic here, one used against me with unusual frequency. I exercise care in the words I use. 'atrocious' per
Merriam-Webster means 'extremely wicked, brutal, or cruel: barbaric.' You're entitled to that view of me as someone displaying exceptional brutality and cruelty on wikipedia. But you should quietly ask yourself, because I don't report insults, how that squares with the content evidence of my creation of 1,000 plus articles as varied as
11122:. I had the distinct impression the line I quoted summed up (a) BM giving empirical evidence and (b) being attacked for doing so by several editors. My impression was that BM answered my solicitation for such evidence (on another page), came up with his charts and was immediately thanked by sean.hoyland and myself. Then Hoyland, Zero, with a professional competence in these things, questioned aspects of the chart, or the inferences BM drew from them as did SashiRolls. This was absolutely normal, consensual discussion. The only blip was Nableezy being upset at the way BM's chart distorted his comments. BM and Nableezy often collaborate and at times get annoyed at each other, but that is not 'multiple editors' getting at BM. What has been suggested is that his particular modelling of the data produces the kind of result he'd be comfortable with, and that is a point very frequently made of papers in population genetics and other fields.
10449:@User:BilledMammal. I'm sorry, but language and grammar are merciless in these things (and the fact that such niceties are missed so often is one reason reading ANI/AE discussions is, certainly for me, so painful -I was in part permabanned because one admin could not understand irony, though everyone else saw the amicable comedy of my, to him alone, 'aggressively' 'uncivil'/abusive remark). You are simply wrong. If you have played lawn bowls, then grasping whether the ball you are drawing has a wide or narrow bias is fundamental to mastering the art. The whole point of RSN deliberations, and you engage in them often, is to distinguish between narrow and wide bias in newspapers. A narrow bias doesn't imperil the general reliability of a source: a wide bias can lead to deprecation. I guess now, having told you you are flat-out wrong, I have now produced a diff that can be cited in just one more
5819:(calling them "fringe"). We call this adoption of the mainstream bias "neutral point of view." Everyone will always disagree with some parts of it, but it'll be different parts. Sure, I also think our ARBPIA articles are riddled with bias, but not the same parts that Hen Mazzig is talking about, and Arbcom isn't going to resolve that disagreement between us. We are not here because of bias in articles, and I don't think there is any chance that we are going to stick NPOV tags on thousands of articles, nor are we going to elect a body that can come up with a way to write a bias-free summary of the most complicated and controversial geopolitical dispute in history. Let's keep our expectations reasonable: we can kick people out who are causing a lot of trouble, and maybe find ways to reduce the amount of volunteer time wasted on unnecessary writing (cough), that's what we can try to do.
10960:
other. Sympathy when partisan is tribal, and modernity teaches us that, though Hillel the Elder put it superbly in his dictum:'What is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow: this is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn,' which we have now in the form, 'Do not do unto others what you would not have them do to you.' To empathize along ethnic lines is to sap the very principle that underwrites this as a human virtue. So, what befell Jewish israelis in the kibbutzim, and the fate of the hostages elicits the same pain as one should feel at what befalls
Palestinians. I admit that there are very strong drifts in representation which retribalize our principles, demanding that we showcase the tragedy of Israeli hostages, each with a photo and lifestory, while the parallel hostage-taking of Palestinians ( of the 9,170 arrested roughly 4000 are in
7699:
pushing, it is editors who edit according to the best available sources and editors who edit on emotion and time-wasting tactics. And those things should not be treated as though they are opposing camps. Those editing according to our content policies against those editing contrary to them is not a POV-pushing battle. Number 57's complaints about this, as somebody who is informed on how editing goes here, have to my ears always rang hollow. Consensus was against their position on things like including language on the illegality of
Israeli settlements in their articles, and so he has openly called those who supported including such a thing, including me, POV pushers. Im sorry he feels that way, Ive never really been aware of what I could do to ameliorate that impression of his, but Ill just state I disagree with the premise of his claim that
15486:
reasons I stood for ArbCom last year. It's likely we will end up holding it in some form but we need a clear scope and a clear question that ArbCom can answer. This is our most troublesome topic area and has already been through this process four times, so ArbCom may not have any tools left in its toolbox, having already created ARBECR out of whole new cloth. The
Knowledge dispute is a microcosm of the real-world dispute and a baker's dozen Knowledge editors cannot resolve the entire Arab-Israeli conflict. On Knowledge, the topic heats and cools with the real-world conflict and we are currently in a very large flare up due to horrific real-world events. I am sympathetic to the view that we have reached the limits of what can be achieved with the open, collaborative model given the proliferation of sockpuppetry in the area.
6138:@Sean.hoyland thanks for the numbers, they are really informative! I will say, it is fairly obvious a giant influx of editors to the topic area happened recently as a result of the conflict (myself included), though obviously the analysis of such a large dataset to confirm or deny toxicity by a core group would go beyond just numbers. I think the pure mass of folks in the topic area is just a lot harder to govern around and regulate, especially with the contentiousness of the topic area. And as the conflict spreads beyond obviously ARBPIA pages to tangentially related pages, the regulations get murkier. I think if PIA5 does happen, a key issue is just how to govern and regulate en masse, as well as on the individual editor/cabal level, and how to handle PIA content on pages that aren't just pure PIA (see the
9589:
Arbitration
Committee forum. Further, the sanctions being handed out are being done under Arbitration Committee authority, not community authority. As such under the Arbitration and Consensus policies, the Committee can do what it feels best including mandating that all appeals in this topic area are heard by it rather than AE. As to the substance of the SFR's suggestions, I'm not sure the committee wants to hear all appeals, but if it thinks SFR's idea is a good one I would suggest it limit itself to either or both of: appeals of recent sanctions (<3 or <6 months) and appeals stemming from an AE report (regardless of whether it is actioned by an inidivudal administrator or a rough consensus). I think giving uninvolved administrators the ability to use the tools available in
7335:, that table is interesting, but my challenge would be - what is the utility of an unfalsifiable label? Also, if I made that I would have pretty low credence in the labels because I don't know how to write an algorithm to reliably tell the difference between "a pro-Palestine point of view"/"a pro-Israel point of view" and a policy compliant source-based view. This is the tricky thing for me. There's the personal bias, plus a person's source sampling bias that limits what they can see, plus their personal interpretation of policies like due weight, plus what they personally identify as bias etc. and you can't just do a Fourier transform to decompose them. Sticking a label on editors strikes me as an understandable attempt to impose order on something more complex and chaotic.
11207:
behavior of a single editor. So I believe ARBCOM should look into this. In doing so, however, I encourage ARBCOM not to narrowly constrain which editors' behavior will be considered. AE is able to deal with the behavior of single editors. What ARBCOM needs to look at is whether the outcome of editors working together is actionably disruptive where any individual's actions in isolation may not be. I also encourage ARBCOM not to take a narrow view of what constitutes conduct. Mis-representing a source is, in my view, just as bad - and possibly worse for
Knowledge's long-term credibility - than any civility issue. It shouldn't be ignored just because it is easier to police language, though I am in no way suggesting that the expectations for collegial language be ignored.
11655:
reflect serious real-world divides, new / inexperienced users and blatant new SPAs are going to constantly flow into the topic area and require experienced editors who are willing to take the time and effort to keep an eye on a vast number of pages in order to maintain some semblance of balance or even just basic compliance with policy. We aren't going to solve the underlying A/I conflict on
Knowledge; the topic area is always going to be fraught. And the simple fact is that distinguishing between an experienced editor who eg. frequently reverts in a particular way because they're doing the necessary gruntwork of dealing with an endless tide of SPAs trying to blatantly add a particular bias an article, and an experienced editor who is performing
7397:
effect on the dynamics of the topic area, and most importantly they divide the community into sanctionable and unsanctionable classes. And remember, sockpuppets are not just accounts that makes hundreds edits from a single account and stick around, although there are plenty of those. The majority of sockpuppets make tens of edits in PIA and are gone. Most are probably not "discovered" or blocked at all. The vast majority of articles in the topic area are not EC protected so there is no barrier in place, just the vigilance of editors who spot and revert EC violations. Then, of course, that topic area monitoring and revert work will be counted as part of estimates of how much someone resembles an SPA, which is pretty funny.
7535:, thank you for the response. I understand. I sometimes wonder whether WMF would benefit from adopting some kind of 'commitment to authenticity' that you see in some social media companies that have to deal with similar ban evasion/inauthentic actor issues. Now that Knowledge has matured into one of the most-visited websites, plays an important role in large-language model training and will probably become even more significant with models using Knowledge/Wikidata etc. as knowledge bases to ground their responses, a system that doesn't do very well at preventing people willing to use deception from generating content and participating in consensus forming processes seems a bit problematic.
7683:
emotions overtake their willingness to pretend that everybody here is editing in the best of faith and we're all one big happy community. And beyond that, as far as I am aware civility on
Knowledge has never meant not swearing. And I personally find insulting my intelligence through making specious arguments to be much more uncivil than a "bullshit" said in exasperation. But I was not saying WP:CIV should not count in this topic area, Im just saying if somebody is being realistic about how editing between people who are involved in a conflict in which accusations of rape and genocide are happening in the real world they should understand it is not always going to be roses and butterflies.
17650:- merge discussions are processed in the same venue as deletion discussions. So there potentially is a chance that what is a merge discussion may soon turn out to have consensus in favour of deletion. You didn't intend to delete, but you did get involved in a deletion discussion after all because the final result was delete. And yes, the nom has no control over how the discussion goes. Blocking for violating TBan in this case would be unfair, but you will definitely find people who will assert he violated his TBan regardless. It doesn't matter if mergers/blanking-and-redirecting are not technically deletions. The matter is, that discussion may yield a delete result.
14710:
don't find them useful or probative of anything whatsoever. I suggest that the Committee go ahead, pass whatever you want to pass as motions, but also go ahead with a case as there is a need for one as the topic area needs help. I believe the source of the problems is that due to various reasons, the Knowledge community as a whole has avoided this subject area. Thus the very basis of the project, which is the genius of crowds, has gone, and the result has been detrimental to both the community and the reader. These points were made early on by the three users I mentioned and others, but the point has been lost by the usual swamp of verbiage and deflection.
11828:
ones I received. I'm also not sure why it matters -- neither side should be receiving death threats, but nobody "wins" by being more oppressed. As to my lack of having been targeted for on-wiki vandalism by one side or the other, as Nishidani pointed out, my "presence is very rare in the IP area" so not only would I have less visibility over other people receiving threats, logically I'm not going to be the target of abuse from that area either. And, I was considerably less active in editing from 2012 until 2023, which certainly bears on why my User Talk was not subjected to those kinds of attacks. Thus I believe I'm just not a good fit for your metaphor.
11180:
contributions and all topic areas, I'm quite convinced that there would not be much of an encyclopedia. I realize that Arbcom tries to clinically separate content and conduct, but IMO one should not lose sight of the goal of the entire project. And while productive, good faith editors can be driven away from contributing due to battleground behavior and general nastiness, it's also true that they can be driven away by excessive rules and (the fear of) overzealous ban-hammers. I do believe that editors who actually work on creating an encyclopedia should be distinguished from people who just show up to revert or argue on talk pages. (
9780:
possibilities to me: the editor made up/manipulated evidence, the people accusing that editor of lying are casting personal attacks, or there is such bad faith among topic area editors that honest mistakes/normal editorial choices while summarizing information is seen as being done with malevolent intent. In theory ArbCom is best positioned to figure out which of these things is true in this and several other similar accusations. And if ArbCom decides they can't (or don't have capacity to stay on top of this kind of conduct during a case), I hope they consider an intermediary step until ArbCom would have the capacity to do this.
13901:'s point of view above... while this is clearly a hugely emotive and contentious topic area for many and of course there are numerous disputes, my from-a-distance perspective is that conduct is actually a lot better than you might expect. While many editors fall into one of two "camps", the WP principles of compromise, respecting others and objective analysis still seem to be present in many debates. I'd urge ArbCom to be extremely cautious about imposing too many editing restrictions or topic bans in this area, on either side of the debate, I think that would lead to less good coverage of the subject rather than more.
10237:. When a theory fails, those convinced of it invent another theory (Untouchables here) to account for why it was not accepted, etc.). The result here is a series of intemperate variations of a boilerplate meme chanted about the I/P area, which I have heard for a dozen years used of individual editors but now used of a group, first targeted by several off-wiki sites and now pushed as a reality which slipped past our monitoring for 20 years. And it is just an unsubstantiated opinion, esp. from editors I’ve almost never seen here, and, surprisingly seems to be getting some traction.
13787:. To be clear, I am not denying that contentious topics are likely to have more sockpuppetry or newer editors in the topic areas than a "tame" subject would. That does not, however, justify cherrypicking PAGs that support one side, and ignoring arguments to the contrary - and it especially does not justify bludgeoning discussions so that the closer has no choice but to find those arguments "stronger" simply because people either tire out of refuting the claims, tire out of pointing out the failures of the arguments made, or are threatened with administrative action by those who
11299:), led me to find the editing environment disturbingly toxic, and not due to some simple problem with a small number of easily identified editors. Rather, it felt like a fairly large number of experienced editors, together, were acting in a way inconsistent with a CTOP subject. That strikes me as something that AE is poorly equipped to deal with. And it fits exactly with the concept that ArbCom should accept cases where the community has tried, but been unsuccessful, to resolve. So I recommend that ArbCom accept this case, and do so with a large number of named parties. --
11896:
administrator who is not themselves involved, but who wishes to push their finger on the scale of the matter, could simply "knock out" any other admin (or non-admin editor) as being "involved" with the only recourse being (if Motion #1 also goes through) an Arbitration appeal. That seems highly unlikely to reduce the amount of heat on the topic, and I don't see how it leads to the goal of encouraging outside voices. If there's a concern over specific administrators taking actions while being involved, I think that should be raised individually on a case-by-case basis.
14442:
accusation/disputed claim. This is the sort of situation where a closer, while acting in good faith, can create issues with a questionable close. In this case, editors had good reason to question the close of POVTITLE grounds. However, with a basically 50/50 split between editors who were happy/unhappy with the move the review was closed as no-consensus. I feel in cases like this if we can't endorse the close then the close needs to be reverted (perhaps for a panel close). Note that this isn't specifically a problem for this topic area.
13840:(outside obvious socks/SPAs/etc that AE can continue to handle), or resolve the issues in this topic area by some other means. As it stands, editors on the side with more experienced editors can continue to weaponize AE to remove editors they don't like from the topic area since AE admins feel obligated to continue reviewing reports with what ideally should be an impending case - and as they've said multiple times, AE isn't the right place nor equipped to handle reports regarding conduct that crosses over a plethora of editors. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez |
11544:(Perhaps I'm posting here too much, but ArbCom's near-silence creates a vacuum.) ArbCom, don't get distracted by outside publications claiming bias in our content. It's special pleading, and ArbCom shouldn't end up with another Polish Holocaust case. We've got a problem, apparently, with a bottomless well of newish accounts that make life difficult for good-faith editors, which is something that AE should be able to handle. And I believe strongly that we have a problem with experienced editors who make it too difficult for AE to do its job. --
15454:
that we probably should given that AE has done exactly what we told them they could and should do: refer cases to us. As much as I'm remiss to hold PIA5, it seems increasingly unavoidable. The world's most intractable problem continues to be our most intractable problem. Should this AE become PIA5 though? That's where I'm undecided and would be interested in more feedback on whether we can resolve the narrow origins of this AE report without also having to make it PIA5. It may benefit us to consider PIA5 independent of this AE request.
11314:(Added after some other editors have kindly said that they agree with me; I don't know if they will agree with what follows.) ArbCom should know that the problems with "the usual suspects" that cannot be handled by AE generally do not fall along the expected POV fault-lines of Israeli versus Palestinian POVs, or antisemitism or Islamophobia. (I'm sure there are POV pushers like that, but they can be handled at AE.) If anything, there's a divide between different lines of Jewish thought, with the most problematic editors favoring
7648:
looking at four editors in a vacuum in this, or any other topic where the temperature in the real world is beyond mildly warm, is all that productive. I’m well aware of the committees past rulings on standards of behavior, but I for one am unable to understand how anybody can think a topic like this, where the real world conflict it is covering contains accusations of ongoing crimes against humanity up to and including rape as a weapon of war, mass indiscriminate killings, and genocide is going to remain calm cool and collected.
9289:, simple cases of misbehavior of newish accounts are fairly easily handled, as I think my ~80 AE sanctions this year show. The issue arises when we're asked to look into tag-team or long-term edit warring, as we were in this case, and even cursory investigation shows that a large number of editors are involved. You can't have edit warring or tag teaming with just one party or one side. AE is not equipped to handle, or at least they're is no appetite to handle, multiple long-term edit wars involving large numbers of editors.
12891:, or try to push a POV over what reliable sources support. And definitely some of that has been happening here, and I encourage ArbCom to look at the behavior of individual editors in this topic area. But I don't think this stuff coming from established editors is a systemic issue over and above the inherent fact that the Israel/Palestine conflict just is a contentious topic. It's fine to not want to edit in a contentious topic area but I don't think that a topic area being intimidating to edit in is by itself an issue.
14985:
9205:. I've done my best to take care of all of the obvious cases that won't have to set aside a dozen hours of time to deal with, but much of the behavior is by editors with numerous prior warnings and sanctions but that topic banning, interaction banning, and blocking is not a simple matter. Most AE reports in the topic area involve behavior that is widespread among many parties, and picking out a single party for sanctioning and allowing other editors to continue the behavior isn't how enforcement should be working.
13912:. I'd like to know what I was supposed to do differently in that instance? Perhaps it could have instead been a "no consensus" close, but the effect of endorsing the RM close would have been the same. It's been long-established that consensus building on Knowledge takes place by viewing comments through the lens of policy, but equally closers almost always find consensus for the majority vote if there isn't a lot to choose between the strength of arguments. Bluntly, there isn't an objective policy that says
3564:. The issue with the previous motion is that Remedy 6-8 rely on the "primary articles" and "related content" distinction, and establish some special rules that are not found in the rest of the CTOP/ARBECR world. This motion would retain some of the guidance on the templates but broadly eliminate the formal differences in enforcement rules. One other option is to bring some of the rules from ARBPIA into the broader arbitration enforcement procedures. I think there is some merit in that idea — currently, all
10801:(38,036 edits). Another successful sock tagteaming operation since they did manage to change the name before being caught out. I don't know if it is proper to call this misrepresentation 'lying'. It is nonetheless the kind of error which can easily insinuate itself when one is applying to a massive data field algorithms that have no feel for context. Note that Icewhiz/User:Seggallion is missing from BilledMammal's chart unaccountably., comfortably slipping through the tool net despite 38,036 edits.
5173:
7668:, there was a similar argument, where one "side" was claimed to be the pro-Palestinian side, and the other the pro-Israel side. But that, like most of these disputes, was not true. One side was indeed pushing an identifiably nationalistic narrative identified with one "side" in the geopolitical conflict, the other was not. The two "sides" here have never been symmetrical here. As far as BilledMammal's highly subjective understanding of bludgeoning, he lists me as having bludgeoned
5403:. The criteria used for the database search can be seen as a (flawed, but useful) proxy for the latter. The former requires contextual analysis as to whether or not someone is simply posting the same point a bazillion times in response to different people; showing diffs in the same discussion where someone is repeating the same point over and over (and over) again across a multitude of comments would provide better evidence towards that point than the analysis currently does. —
6513:; for bludgeoning, I would suggest instead a rule that direct replies to !votes be disallowed, indirect replies and responses only in own sections as at AE. As for exclusion from !voting, I would go along with this provided that every editor that had made even one edit to an AI/IP article was similarly excluded (I assume that such excluded editors would still be permitted to open formal discussions? eg opening an RM is usually considered equivalent to a bolded !vote.)
10920:, and sometimes it may be quite disconcerting for those whose general information on the conflict comes from TV and mainstream newspapers to find that there is another, equally valid, perspective on events, and we must balance them for NPOV. There is absolutely no problem in finding massive coverage of events from a pro-Israeli perspective, but you have to frequently go to the scholarship to see the other side. And much of that scholarship comes from places like
10561:
unblock a sanctioned Israeli user after he talked to you privately (invisibly, without even examining the relevant pages where he broke 3R to verify his narrative) and (b) denied my own unblock request when, given the circumstances, you should have stayed out of this and left the decision to any other admin who was uninvolved. I gave all the relevant links, to allow editors to draw their own conclusions. Archaeologists of wiki disputes can judge for themselves.
6175:* regarding the "secret majority" theory proposed by some, I argue that folks use the idea that CTOP contentiousness is driven by a small group of editors to pursue a "burn the house down" strategy of removing/wounding an editor population they perceive to be ideologically biased in one direction. Sean.Hoyland has already produced statistics indicating that editor counts are diverse and that the area is contentious primarily because the topic is contentious.
7816:
this topic area outside of the AE request being referred here. The person who was brought to AE has not made a single response to any of this, but somehow we have a number of users rising up to demand topic bans be given out like candy on Halloween. I think there are any number of things that the committee can do in this topic area, hell should do in this topic area. I dont really see how many of them are at all related to what was referred to them here.
13332:, there is a consistent group of editors that repeatedly accuse a list of sources they have deemed to be "anti-Israel" while also defending-ad-bludgeon advocacy sources like the ADL and categorically defining Israeli news media as reliable. These discussions do not display the converse: there is no bloc of editors that rejects Israeli sources out of hand while categorically insisting that pro-Palestinian sources are reliable (for further evidence, see
9920:
case could also allow for an examination of the pieces only arbcom can handle because of their offwiki nature (including what was oversighted during this request). That said some kind of motions along the lines of what Harry offers could be worth a try, as could a narrower case that Aoidh proposes (though I think the odds of success are slimmer here because disruption truly is more widespread than just the "power users" who show up at places like AE).
9458:
a way to "punt" that decision, instead focusing on whether or not it agrees with Levivich's interpetation of tag-teaming/edit warring. I say this based on comments members of the 2019 committee (a 13-member committee which is the only one to have a bigger activity problem than this committee) have made around their inability to give PIA4 and Antisemitism the full attention they deserved. In the latter case this then blew up into a much bigger case (
11974:
topic area is dominated by a relatively small number of long-term editors who rarely break rules such as 3RR etc, but (as said above) are purely here to push their POV and support other members of their group in doing so. They have been allowed to do this for years – the question is whether the community sees this as perfectly fine, or whether it wants to do something about it (which IO think can only be achieved by a mass handout of topic bans).
15013:
14957:
14929:
14901:
14873:
7460:, I'm just counting revisions and excluding bots so it shouldn't change the top 20 counts. Or maybe I would get slightly different counts. I haven't actually checked. Should probably do that but I can't imagine it would be significantly different as we are doing roughly the same thing. What would be nice would be to see how many reverts are spent on enforcing ARBECR, but there is a lot of diversity in people's edit summaries making it tricky.
2968:
2940:
11356:
that being listed as a named party is not a predetermination of guilt, something that perhaps will be more important here than in many other cases. You have multiple AE admins telling you that a full case with multiple parties is needed, and they have given you a reasonable list of potential parties (including admins who are well-positioned to give useful evidence). This is not the time to get stuck on quasi-legalistic procedural details. --
6085:* There is benefits to having folks with bias on here, especially the most heaviest editors, doing major work. Bias is inherent to humanity and pretending otherwise is just an excuse to press the red ban button without considering consequences (or especially because they hate the current bias of Knowledge compared to their preferred bias). The way to deal with bias is using the principles we have, rules we can apply even handedly,
12916:
that "they're the POV pushers, our side is just correct" and that "users are allowed to have their own POV", with the latter suggesting that it's okay to let POV dictate editing and !voting instead of following policies and sources. Call it battleground, tag-teaming, CPUSH, whatever you like, but in my opinion it should be a major focus when considering whether the editors in this area are here to build a neutral encyclopedia.
7839:. You know what’s a problem in this topic area? People making things up and saying it with a straight face so that others believe them. Again, I would highly recommend that you all not take such absolutely bad faith "evidence" at face value. There are multiple examples in that table in which BM is straight up lying about an editors position. Oh, and guess who started that RM? The supposedly non-existent problem of socks.
6620:
This is good advice because there is utility in diluting POV edits, edit war participation etc. A few strategic edit warring edits in a sea of multi-topic edits will likely be treated differently than a few strategic edit warring edits by an account that resembles an SPA, even though they are the same. It may also devalue article intersection evidence between accounts and reduce the chance of a checkuser being approved.
11763:'s experience here echoes mine. The tendentiousness, bludgeoning, and sealioning behavior from these battleground editors makes it exhausting and frustrating for non-battleground editors to participate. In any event, I see the "usual suspects" attempting to downplay or deny that there's any dispute, in contrast to the uninvolved parties saying, essentially: "It's you: you're the problem." I think that's rather telling.
6952:...what are the answers? Nobody knows, but we know from the data that they are a constant presence, make thousands of edits, participate in many discussions and have a significant impact on the dynamics of the topic area (including the things often referred to as 'heat' and 'temperature' - slightly misleading terms because those are measurable quantities in the real world that are unreliable subjective guesses here).
2848:
4 is also covered. If User B moves the hidden comment to cover paragraph 4, would that be fine under Remedy 5? Alternatively, could User B instead place new hidden comments covering paragraph 4 without adjusting the ones on paragraph 2 or 3 and be fine, if the first option is a violation? As far as I see, the only thing that cannot be done by a regular user is removing the hidden comment while moving it is fine. --
9635:
singularly focused Wikipedian" divide (for instance SFR has pointed out that Levivich's definition of tag-teaming could apply to some of former group but is only being applied against the latter group). This complexity is why I repeat my concern about ArbCom accepting a case unless it feels it truly has the capacity/ability to do it just because a lot of people (me included) are saying the status quo isn't working.
14134:, if I see that editor A supported move B for an article about C, it feels a bit superficial for me to think, 'aha, editor A is a pro-C partisan' instead of thinking, 'I had better immerse myself in the relevant literature and see if I agree that the secondary sources support move B for topic C'. To the extent that POV pushing is the animating concern of this referral, it rather matters that we know what
12539:
violation of WP policy, and an apparent policy of assuming bad faith from anyone whom you believe you’ve sussed out to disagree with you go totally unpunished and be downright normalized—and it’s mostly coming from a handful of dominant editors. Something’s gotta give, and if that’s a rain of topic bans, then so be it. I see a few names listed that I believe do little more here than worsen the project.
9138:
consideration of whether the apparent trends are really unreasonable — what should we expect the data to look like if the topic is in good shape? Second, it requires consideration of what information is available but not represented in the data and whether it changes the picture. Neither of those two things have been done. (Critique of statistical experiments is one of my professional specialties.)
7552:, regarding "the Knowledge community as a whole has avoided this subject area". I also thought this was probably the case, but the data appears to indicate that it is not the case. The chart in section 'Meme check #1' above appears to show that the topic area is more attractive to editors than Knowledge in general, at least based on a comparison of the topic area and 15,000 random selected articles.
11725:
discussions on any attempt to balance it. And because events are moving quickly in the real world, this is a serious concern; there's constant new events that justify new articles, which often require fixes but which can't necessarily be summarily deleted. Beyond that, it's, again, not really aimed at the real problems here - revert-wars aren't the main issue (they're one of the things admins
15097:
what ArbCom should enact to help admin find solutions to editor conduct issues. In response to how to refer a case to AE: instead of a magical incantation suggested by SFR, an admin can use a bolded vote at the beginning of a statement (something like "Refer to ArbCom", in bold) or as was done here, an uninvolved admin can determine that action as the consensus of the admin conversation.
13803:, and ultimately through derailing any chance that the behavior is addressed. That is why this is back at ArbCom after what, 4 prior cases? And of course, many of the problematic experienced editors have already shown up to this request to bludgeon here with chants of "there is no war in Ba Sing Se" over, and over, and over again to try and deflect from and/or justify their own behavior.
12153:. I dabbled in editing within the topic area some months back, but quickly opted to mostly stay away - since December or so, my related editing has only been in the Current Events portal/ITNC and various admin/arbitration noticeboards. This pivot was due to the absurd levels of incivility, condescension, POV-pushing, bludgeoning, edit-warring, hypocrisy, and virtually every other type of
8950:
court). Meanwhile, no case has been made for PIA5. We have seen wild assertions without evidence, that's all, and it would be a mistake to take them at face value. Considering that there is a shooting war going on right now, ARBPIA is actually in better shape than one would expect. I've been editing in ARBPIA for over 22 years and for most of that time it was in worse shape than now.
15469:
an effective stopgap measure. In a perfect world, I would have PIA5 be heard by next year's committee, as either its second or third case of the year. That way, the new members are seasoned enough to know the process and contribute, but we haven't yet lost participation to the mid-year slump. That also has the benefit of giving these motions a chance to work and see if that helps.
7420:...absolutely. I would go as far as to say the entire pro-Israel vs pro-Palestine model is very likely to be the wrong model. It's a trap, sometimes used intentionally, sometimes used unintentionally, something that traps people into ways of thinking about solutions that cannot possibly produce effective solutions. Better models could be honest vs dishonest, Knowledge rules : -->
13827:. One need only look at the significant number of experienced editors who are not a part of the "in group" who've commented here that they avoid this topic area because they have no hope of participating constructively against the other experienced editors - whether they're working in coordination or simply independently being disruptive. As such, I see the only solution being
9272:, the tldr is the original complaint was more or less about tag team edit warring, looking into it I saw that it was, in my view, broadly similar to much of the behavior widespread in the topic area, and wasn't terribly interested in making one-off sanctions. It's incredibly widespread, as well as other disruptive behavior, and AE isn't the place to address topic-wide issues.
7318:
might be a stretch thinking about it). I think for many people it seems to be quite easy to mis-categorize pro-Knowledge as pro-Palestinian. Perhaps this follows naturally from the claim that the media, organizations, governments, academia (everyone?) etc. is biased against Israel, so following sources will make you look biased against Israel. It's all a bit self-referential.
8356:. I've manually re-reviewed all of Iskandar323's other !votes, and they appear accurate, but if you have any issues with them please let me know - although preferably on the talk page, to avoid requiring the Arb's to wade through the collaborative process of improving that table. If I refuse to change the table I think that would be when it is appropriate to raise here.
9084:(b) Overall, 975 days are included. This means that even the largest edit count, that of Selfstudier, is only 15 edits per day (in fact effectively less, guessing 9–10, as Selfstudier often makes consecutive small edits). My count at #16 in the list is only 2.5 edits per day, which is remarkably few given that my watchlist of length 8,687 includes most ARBPIA articles).
15313:. A case with a set number of named parties that led to this arriving at ARCA would allow us to more thoroughly examine those issues and determine if this is something specific to those editors that might require sanctions, or if there may be more general actions that can be taken, in which case we can do so with a more thorough examination of the facts via a case. -
6956:
are asymmetries in the costs of preparing and processing an SPI report vs creating a disposable account, which is a virtually frictionless process. These asymmetries, and there are many, seem to be very significant features of the topic area. Using disposable accounts appears to be a better strategy for the righteous advocate and it's not obvious how to change that.
13537:. All of these edits should have been uncontroversial. But I know that when I do the former (ie.removing "in Israel" from places which have been occupied by Israel since 1967) I can expect a tsunami of insults and threats, while when I do the latter (ie: placing Arab cities in Israel), I have *never* recieved any such reaction. Why this difference, I wonder?cheers,
10662:
oddly - my list has over a score, since Oct.7. That issue was what Levivich tried to address, and his reports somehow got transformed into assertions that they weren't the problem, the 'regulars' were, all based on hearsay circulating for at least a decade, hearsay drummed up by new off-wiki attack sites with a clear nationalist brief to go for wiki's IP jugular.
14216:: The recent motions are well-intentioned efforts to deal with the issues presented by this situation without dealing with the editors involved. While that approach is tempting and understandable, I believe that, as some have pointed out, that they might make things worse, promote tag-teaming and offsite canvassing, and constitute a failure to act if not worse.
10742:. As far as I can see, your statistics do not note a deterioration over time of editing in the IP area. They only indicate that roughly half of the cases brought there are IP related, and that AE has efficiently sanctioned a large number of the editors reported. I could make many other inferences but leave a proper analysis to those competent in these matters.
12631:) from appearing on BilledMammal's list. That said, and as others have already said on the talk page (or when it is was brought to ANI as an attack page), showing that people engaged in discussion, provided RS, debunked silly arguments, responded to sockpuppet provocation, etc. does not show that people "bludgeoned" anything. As the explanatory essay says:
10200:, I've seen editors brought before AE where part of the evidence involved reverts to other edits well over a 24 hours old. So from what I've seen the idea of recent is older than 24 hours. I don't have an answer on what I think should be a good threshold for what "recent" is, however I could foresee a lot of problems if it was defined as short as 24 hours.
14414:, and explicitly mark them as such to readers with an appropriate banner? To remove this banner, we could introduce more stringent criteria requiring a wider consensus, including input from uninvolved editors. Articles that fail to pass these reviews would remain marked as "potentially biased". It would also be easier to re-introduce a banner if needed.
14446:
committee to look not just at editor behavior but structural ways we can try to avoid these problem in the future. There are many good editors on both sides of this topic and even more who likely aren't on either side but who just want to do good work in this area. I think some rules based reforms vs finger pointing at editors might be helpful here.
8507:, I believe that 13, collectively making 75,383 edits to the topic area since 2022, generally align with a pro-Palestinian position. I believe two, collectively making 5,832 edits, generally align with a pro-Israeli position. The remaining five, collectively making 19,550 edits, are either neutral or have a position that I have been unable to determine:
10233:
reported over the last year, and invariably the cases were dismissed. They were frivolous, but ‘there is no smoke without fire’ psychological atmosphere created by this repetitive questioning of my policy-adherence and good faith, indeed, precisely because AE rejected these piddling reports, the claim emerges that editors like me are ‘untouchable’ (
11863:
a Marine, as well as not realizing I'd been out of the military for over a year at that point) categorically disqualified from participating in the Israel topic area; made the same argument about a British military admin; and then proceeded to imply that we were tag-team coordinating while admitting that you had no evidence whatsoever to make that
9049:. Levivich deconstructs this division better than I could, and I wholeheartedly endorse his analysis. In terms of disputes, the most common division is between those who uncritically accept Israeli official versions and those who don't. Being critical of Israeli propaganda is completely different from being uncritical of Palestinian propaganda.
17834:
intended to solve. If an editor edits unhelpfully about topic X but productively about adjacent topic Y, then in a doubtful case and all other things being equal, one might not want to construe a topic-ban on X to include Y. Of course, where the applicability of the topic ban is clear then it must be observed, unless and until it is modified.
339:
347:
9167:. This is a dreadful idea. Practically nobody attends these discussions without a pov. The effect will be that newcomers summoned on off-wiki groups, who usually come with a minimum of knowledge, will have greater rights than dedicated editors who are expert on the subject. Also, there will be endless argument over who is "involved".
6160:. All areas of Knowledge has "regulars" and regulars generally provide the most institutional wisdom to the project, rejection of "regulars" ability to vote would likely represent a repudiation of the current coverage of the conflict in favor of the implicit view by some that "secret majorities" have overrun the CTOP areas. For
6964:
subsets, see what happens. Have a closely guarded set of articles with all of the existing rules, any new remedies, any new entry barriers, checkusers for every editor active there etc., the strictest possible enforcement environment. Have another set that could be a land for the oppressed and mistreated ban evading victims of
3126:
conflict, broadly interpreted", and making conforming edits to the rest of the case. (We can keep the templates, but the definitions of primary articles and related content will no longer be necessary in defining the scope of the restrictions.) Doing so would resolve this request and simplify the language going forward. Best,
12912:
have, their behavior is the worst of any topic area on Knowledge. Everyone here knows which users I'm talking about and which sides they fall on, but we have to pretend we don't so as not to be accused of casting aspersions. I see an Arbcom case as the only way to turn this years-old "open secret" into something actionable.
11663:-ing innocent new editors, is often not obvious. Part of the reason an ArbCom case is needed is because the community and AE aren't equipped for that; but this also means it's important to approach the case with an eye towards the drive-by / SPA problem, at least as context for the behavior of parties to the case, and not
10868:'s political history of Tibet at 17; to specializing academically in the concepts of nationalist exceptionalism -all underdog stories and therefore a sense that any judgment must be grounded in universalist principles or logic. When I started reading wiki IP articles, Palestinian history was absent from most (so I rewrote
10435:, They are not valid evidence for what you claim for a very simple linguistic reason. 'Severe bias' and 'bias' are not interchangeable, the adjectival qualifier makes all the difference. All newspapers have bias, like humans. 'Severe bias' in a newspaper/organization is what makes it unacceptable, as distinct from others.
17630:
they believe is wrong with the article. But urging people to go towards a deletion discussion, or anything that would touch it, is something they should avoid as part of their sanctions. Again, they would be better off if instead of tagging, they actually found the sources, or told others they couldn't find any at all.
9031:
tables (example: only 17% of Selfstudier's edits this year were in mainspace, but who knows?). My greatest fear is that arbitrators will think that you are just a helpful provider of objective information when in fact you are one of the main area protagonists and your data must be critically examined with that in mind.
9939:(and anyone else watching) I think at this point there are no bad ideas. Part of my rationale for proposing the motions was to see if they sparked any better ideas. Separate cases might be worth thinking more about. How would we structure a general case about the topic area to avoid it becoming a mud-slinging contest?
13123:. I would like to see a case in which the most frequent participants in the area are scrutinized, and that this will be proposed as a principle to guide any and all remedies. The repeated insistence from frequent participants that only newbies and socks are the problem has further convinced me that this is necessary.
11462:(Although, in my case, it might not show what you expect now.) I'd suggest other editors, with more experience in the content area than I have, consider doing that, too. Arbs might want to click on those source links to check them for yourselves, but that's as far into source material as I expect you will need to go.
2989:
9010:, none of them started an RM nor (on a cursory scan) questioned the use of "massacre". But this tacit acceptance of the facts is absent from your analysis. This is just one example of how your raw data tends to misrepresent reality. A proper analysis would need to compare reliable sources against !voting patterns.
11592:, while I don't particularly appreciate being snidely labelled a pro-Israel complainer, I do appreciate an immediate example of "experienced editors . . turning the entire topic into even more of a WP:BATTLEGROUND than it needs to be". So—on balance, notwithstanding its intention—I thank you for your statement!
10828:. My instincts told me immediately that there was some echo in that voice I recognized from the past, and a few moments of thought prompted me to associate it with a prior editor, highly intelligent and articulate, very pro-Israel, but utterly unfamiliar with any of the scholarship. The name that popped up was
6004:. There are POV-fork type issues, but this is one of those topics where every time there is a question of how to categorize the conflict, it opens up the same exact battle lines of arguments in a million pages, even if they cover completely different aspects that may involve Israel/Palestine as one example.
13695:
furiously engages is necessarily disruptive. We should be careful not to draw a false equivalence between the two. Especially when one side focuses on policy based arguments, namely summarizing inclusively pro Israeli and Palestinian sources while other sides are pushing for singular/nationalist narratives.
10968:) is systematically ignored. To state that, given the disparity, is not to espouse a pro-Palestinian perspective. It is simply to insist that our civilization in its laws and ethical principles commends our sympathies to go out to whoever suffers, regardless of the mean divisions of politics and ethnicity.
9067:(academics at opposite ends of the pov spectrum). Incidentally, none of the articles directly related to the 2023 Hamas attack on Israel or the subsequent Israeli response appear among my 1,500 most-edited articles, and Talk pages come it at number 412. No wonder I failed my Pro-Palestinian Activism exam.
3742:: I guess the question is whether it'd be worth codifying this distinction for the other CTOP areas as well. We can go in the other direction and borrow some of this language for use in the broader enforcement procedures — ARBPIA is not particularly unique in the sense of being a broad topic area. Best,
6442:
now, suggesting that the only basis for said designation is the content of the replies (of editors and admins) in said case, which lacks a certain logic afaics. Which is not to say definitively that there should not be a case, just that it should have proper antecedents and not merely come about ad hoc.
15053:
It would be quite helpful to have your perspective here. I would also appreciate hearing further from the uninvolved admins as to what you'd like ArbCom to do — I see two buckets of possibilities: (1) Hold a full case or case-like structure to resolve the complex multiparty questions here, and/or (2)
14760:
Reading through the arbitrator comments, I may be wrong but it appears to me that a full case is not by any means off the table, and that the motions are not necessarily going to be a substtitute for a full case. It might be clarifying if the committee would formally vote up or down on that, with the
14727:
afraid what you're suggesting would take the project off the hook in not just this case but in scores of contentious articles on every conceivable subject, whether officially designated as "contentious" or not. The project is an ongoing effort, and surrendering on that basic principle is inadvisable.
13727:
On one hand, if this becomes PIA5, more people would have given commented (if they wished) and existing editors might have presented evidence differently. On the other hand, a lot of time is wasted going in circular questions about the correct forum, when many of the issues raised are the same. If it
13486:
Not to mention that some cats are the subject of off-wiki harassment and outing-attempts, while others are not. I cannot recall in all my years here that there has been a single attack-page aimed at the pro-Israeli editors, while there have been at least half a dozen attacking those editor not deemed
13421:
As for Number 57 view: "is a core group of 10-15 editors in this topic area (many of whom have been with us for well over a decade) who are primarily on Knowledge to push their POV I could also easily name such a group – but it would prabably be a totally different group from the one (I guess) Number
12911:
Given the pushback from regulars in this area, I'll add one more voice from someone who's only edited at the edge of the topic area and have felt dissuaded from contributing further. I can't say it better than Swatjester: "'It's you: you're the problem'". Whatever excuses the entrenched editors might
11862:
thank you for bringing up an example that I did not remember from nearly two decades ago of your atrocious behavior within this topic area, in which you became so infuriated that I denied an unblock request from you, that you went on a rant about how my military service in Iraq (miscategorizing me as
11426:
nature of the problem, in ways that contradict one another, and that cannot possibly all be true. If that means that ArbCom is having difficulty envisioning what such a sprawling case would consist of, and lead to, that reflects what a mess this is. But not knowing ahead of time what the outcome will
11206:
I saw several reports at AE that mentioned tag-teaming as a concern. I did not find anything actionable in the ones I investigated, but I agree with BK49 above that AE is less well-placed to investigate a sprawling multi-party dispute where the behavior of multiple editors may be of concern, than the
10836:
alluding to the possibility the editor had a prior account. Whatever the truth, that editor desisted from further editing IP articles. Go figure. But only deep editing experience will give one the kind of informal knowledge (often subjective, but not infrequently spot on, though never mentioned) that
10815:
This isn't some pleas for myself, but a note to explain something about why the widespread enmity against 'longterm editors' who, several seem to believe, should be TNT'd so that the area can be rebuilt effectively, is a simpleton fantasy that can do enormous damage if taken seriously. Apart from the
10661:
hell for the first decade of my working here, and I don't think growing senility accounts for my impression that over the last several years much of that heat has been significantly lowered, thanks to ARBPIA3. The only change I have witnessed is the sharp rise in newly registered accounts that behave
10656:
And yes, seconding Zero, I really would like to see a minimum of evidence that the place has deteriorated to the point of requiring executive re-examination. What evidence we have is that there has been a massive investment of editors, a great many new, creating and working hundreds of articles since
9565:
Thanks Z1720. Sounds like your reading is the same as what I had previously thought. So then I'm still confused about what your initial comment was suggesting - there was never any confusion (that I could see) among the uninvolved admins about what the rough consensus was at a given moment (even if I
9457:
I guess I should add one thing. If this ArbCom can't do the review of editor conduct well, and given that this is the committee with the biggest issues with activity among arbs of any 15-member arbcom in at least a decade it may decide it doesn't have the capacity to do this well, I'd suggest it find
8906:
Here is something that will improve the atmosphere of formal discussions (RMs, RfCs, AfDs, etc): Require everyone to stick to their own statement, regardless of how many times they add to it (like at AE). This will eliminate 90% of bludgeoning right away. For RfCs: one statement in the !votes section
8878:
If any restrictions are imposed on the area, they should apply to everyone and not to some arbitrary list like this one. One of the notable things about the I/P area in the past several months is the remarkable number of new and revived accounts that have joined in, mostly on one side of the equation
7815:
I am largely in agreement with ToBeFree here. If this is a referral of the AE thread then the committee should rule on that AE thread if that seems worthwhile. If a full case is warranted then it should be at WP:ARC, where somebody like me can present evidence on tendentious and disruptive editing in
7726:
about including that information in each article. And since then, you have repeatedly called myself and others POV-pushers for reasons I have not yet figured out. And you have, again, that entire time played up that a couple of pro-Israel users opposed your RFA. I dont know what is disingenuous about
7422:
person from editing in the topic area. Does anyone believe blocking the O.maximov and FourPi sock accounts will change anything when they probably already have alternative disposable accounts. Nothing can be done about personal bias. But plenty can be done about reducing dishonesty in the topic area.
7421:
personal preferences vs Knowledge rules < personal preferences. There are probably lots of better models. The objective function for PIA is poorly defined. If it is something like to maximize policy compliance and minimize disruption, how can we ever hope to achieve that if we can't even prevent a
6532:
I don't think the referral of this particular case and the inclusion of the first two items listed as identified disruption dealing with edit warring necessarily means that AE can't deal with such or didn't in this instance. Just because the experiment blew up the lab does not mean it was a bad thing
6490:
9: If someone insists, rather simplistically imo, on labeling myself, then a more appropriate label from my own perspective would be pro human rights/International law and the alleged pro-Palestinianism derives from my belief that the hr/il rights of Palestinians are breached far more frequently than
6197:
I think we have arrived at a point where editing in this area is not just a battleground environment but an ex-territory of the project. I recognize that I, too, took part in this in the past, not out of desire but because I felt I had no choice when I saw the consistent POV pushing and disregard for
6111:
I am not sure the same cabal of pro-Palestine/pro-Israeli editors is necessarily "crowding" out other editors? There are folks who loudly complain about exiting ARBPIA areas, especially on this section, but that isn't quite the same as actual stats to back that up. I'm actually fairly new-ish to this
6037:
A further issue is that for most of the last two decades the two sides have been seriously mismatched in terms of numbers and one side has been consistently able to push their POV through weight of numbers, either by long-term tag teaming or by swinging poorly-attended discussions (and in my view the
5908:
There seems to be constant RFCs and threads about the reliability of sourcing in this area. I know the current arbitration request is about long term edit warring, but there is also long-term campaigns in talk spaces to remove usage of certain sourcing. See the downgrading of the ADL, the current RFC
5647:
is part of Palestine. Maybe it's happened, but I've never seen anybody try that. AFAIK, there is nobody "on the other side" of the pro-Israeli POV-pushing with regards to the status of Jerusalem. There are just the people who say it's all Israel, and the people who say, no it's split in two parts and
5474:
behavior in the topic area, a filing at AE, ANI, ANEW, or some other noticeboard, should happen first, before an arbcom case. An arbcom case should only happen when (1) there are editors who want to present evidence to arbcom, and (2) community options have first been tried and failed (unless there's
2670:
An exemption is added so that the requirements of "General sanctions upon related content" are not applied to editor restrictions imposed under CTOP. This would be the closest to the current intent where editors could be restricted from related content based on and applying to all of their editing in
2314:
One place says that the "area of conflict" does not extend to userspace (which implies that it does extend to talkspace). ECR indicates that talkspace has some differences in restrictions compared to article space. Both these make sense and can be true at the same time. We definitely do not want the
2164:
However, I will note that the contradiction between the "topic area" as defined and what areas ECR do not allow for is present. And so in a different scenario I would say this user shouldn't have to eat a block that could then be escalated if there are future transgressions. However, given that there
17958:
initiating or participating in merge discussions: This rides the line, but I come out as a "yes this is in scope." A merge discussion has many of the same hallmarks that a deletion discussion does. A merge discussion may also result in the practical deletion of an article, because redirected content
17468:
A ban is not merely a request to avoid editing "unless they behave". The measure of a ban is that even if the editor were to make good or good-faith edits, permitting them to edit in those areas is perceived to pose enough risk of disruption, issues, or harm, to the page or to the project, that they
17303:
Personally, I think this is being blown out of proportion again. I have not suggested that anything be sent to AFD after the last go-round, where I was warned not to do that again. It's clear how "should this be taken to AFD?" can be seen as me trying to skirt the topic ban. The below-cited Weird Al
16498:
I understand this will slow the topic area down and be a general barrier to editing. But given the alarm bells being rung above, and the threat of PIA5, I think we have to consider drastic measures. I'd also vote for a time limited version of this; i.e., with a sunset clause of a year, and we'd have
16433:
Where a recent edit within the area of conflict is reverted for a substantive reason, it may not be reinstated by any editor until a discussion on the talk page reaches a consensus. Reverts made solely to enforce the extended-confirmed requirement are excluded from this requirement. This motion will
15488:
A case with a sprawling scope and no clear question that ArbCom can answer is likely to be an enormous time sink and end up producing little long-term benefit. Instead, I think SFR's suggestions have merit for maintaining some semblance of order, even if it means ArbCom playing a more proactive role
15468:
A good number of you continue to urge us to accept a case so as to hear PIA5. But I don't think we're in a great place to do that right now. With the loss of Barkeep, and generally low activity, I'm not sure we're cut out for the gargantuan task of PIA5. I think passing some motions at the moment is
15453:
I find SFR's proposals to be exciting ideas and suggest that at a minimum we propose them as structural reforms in the area, and pronto. I think there's an immediate problem that needs to be solved: this AE report. Resolving it is our necessary goal. I'm not opposed to holding a case here, and think
15308:
A more effective route in handling this may be to have a case that focuses specifically on resolving the complex editor interaction issues that caused this to become an ARCA referral rather than jumping to a broader case that goes beyond those issues, or motions that do not address all of the issues
15286:
I'm open to SFR's suggestion that ArbCom handle the appeals. As to the word limit suggestion, it would at minimum have to be reworded before I'd support something like that. Short of possible scripts or off-wiki websites (most of which give inconsistent word count results), there's no easy way for a
14385:
The sources I previously posted, and which have since been redacted, reported that a group of editors had been coordinating using third-party tools (e.g. Discord) to fight “on the Knowledge front the information battle for truth, peace and justice.” According to the articles, their activity included
14180:
The discussion is useful less for the particulars of whether such a board is useful than it is for the cross-section of attitudes on display, which vary from concern to not giving a damn about civility. Note also that some of the most active I/P editors involved in this discussion participated there
14176:
More needs to be done to improve the civility of the I/P pages, because the current atmosphere in these pages is simply unacceptable. Editors and administrators both too often disregard that civility is not a suggestion, not a behavioral guideline, but is policy. Last month I proposed the revival of
13778:
This gets at the root cause of the issues in this (and likely other) contentious topics. Those editors with experience have "practice" in using PAGs in discussions - which is great as discussions should be based on how to apply our PAGs to specific disputes. However, their experience also means they
13705:
The other thing that remains unacceptable is the presentation by some editors in this ArbCom request and general discussions as POV pushing by two sides, when the reality is it is POV pushing versus critically summarizing the state of different reliable sources. Having a much stricter enforcement of
12269:
That's not even to mention the specific reasons why this case was primarily brought here (in my understanding), that being AE is mainly intended to be an A reporting B case forum. When the issue at hand is tag-teaming, multi-party edit warring, multi-party incivility, etc, AE's not too well-equipped
12099:
Huldra, I don't think it's appropriate to get into an argument about who has suffered the most abuse, particularly using a single metric like talkpage redactions – the fact is that no-one should receive any level of abuse for editing Knowledge. And also worth noting that I have also been impacted as
11999:
Re my views on 30/500 – my concern is that it is a deterrent to new editors entering the topic sphere, which is one of the issues preventing an equalisation in the number of POV pushers on each side (as I've said above, I would rather they were all topic banned, but if Knowledge is going to tolerate
11920:
That said, Jeske+Barkeep's suggestion of splitting this into topic area and editor conduct halves I think merits further examination. Depending on how those two groupings relate to each other (e.g. if findings from the topic area can inform whether editor conduct issues exist), that could be a clean
11654:
I also want to second Loki's statement below that much of the problem is drive-by new editors or SPAs with few edits elsewhere - a lot of the other comments here have basically said "this is all about a few bad editors"; I don't think that's correct. In topic areas like this, where the disputes here
11573:
than it needs to be, but also negatively affects the experiences and habits of newer editors who follow the combative, actively hostile methods of those they look up to. Editors of all sides appear to have an unspoken agreement that civility shouldn't really matter when discussing such controversial
9715:
is true. If no one else other than Levivich had replied, some quorum of admin would have been able to reach consensus on האופה. The fact that the replies that actually happened split the focus in a way that AE is ill-equipped to handle is why I ultimately (if reluctantly) agreed we should refer the
9030:
Your response to my request is what I expected and thanks for confirming my suspicion. You are refusing to present information that might shed factual light on the subject when it disturbs the point you want to make. Another example is your refusal to separate main space from talk space in the other
8927:
It's great to see someone present actual evidence. The number of distinct editors in I/P has remained essentially the same for the past 8 years until it suddenly jumped up at the start of the present war. I wonder, is there a simple way to show the same data without the articles specifically related
8885:
Some types of discussion such as a negotiation between two editors should not have a limit at all. Also, in general there is no way to define "a discussion" except in the case of formal discussions like RfCs. The main points of dispute are brought up repeatedly and don't have clear boundaries. This
8617:
If you - or anyone - disagree with any of these, then I think it would be helpful to discuss so that we can create a consensus list, although I would ask that the discussion be opened somewhere other than here. For the avoidance of doubt, this doesn't mean these editors are POV pushing. For example,
8134:
The purpose of RSN is to determine the reliability of sources, not the level of bias. There is no basis in policy to consider biased sources unreliable, and that means that editors attempting to argue that "source they don’t like" is more biased and thus less reliable than "source they like" are POV
8112:
I don’t consider the distinction relevant, because there is no basis in policy to consider sources unreliable due to bias, regardless of the level of bias. Tolerating editors making the assessment that source A is more biased than source B, and thus A is unreliable while B is not, is to tolerate POV
7862:
the use of massacre where all he opposed was your attempt at obfuscating that it was a school that was attacked. You do this constantly, you choose to portray comments in whatever light that makes it appear that your argument is intellectually consistent and honest when it is invariably not. I’ll be
7602:
The "dispute" as defined here is "accounts on Knowledge disagree about various things." In my case I have recently disagreed with a number of accounts about the history of Zionism. On the one hand, early zionists and historians of zionism describe it as a colonial project of settlement. On the other
7299:
Here's an idea for a fun project for someone to make something potentially pretty. Build a directed graph of the sock-related part of the ludicrously large Knowledge category graph and color code the nodes and/or edges for actors that have made PIA revisions (and/or other contentious areas) based on
7284:
And as tempted as I am to name names because I think AGF is counterproductive in PIA when dealing with replicating threat actors, I will just say that I can still see many accounts in the stats that I regard (based on technical data) as probable socks. Maybe someone will file SPIs at some point, but
6999:
It's true that there are instances that can be selected out of the large number of comments on talk pages and elsewhere to tell this story. Sometimes they will be sincere statements and other times they will be insincere manipulative statements by ban evading socks playing the victim in the hopes of
6971:
Are statements of the form "it's toxic disaster zone" true statements or just stories? It's not what I observe. It seems to have improved in some ways. What I have observed over time is what seems to be a gradual transition from things like edit warring as a solution, to talking and the use of tools
6955:
I think there's a bit of a failure to factor in the significance of socks. The existence of an effectively unsanctionable class changes many things in important ways (this is true in other systems too). There are asymmetries in the payoffs and penalties for socks vs non-socks in the wiki-game. There
6659:
This table lists the number of different editors and the number of revisions for talk pages in this 'topic area' for the last ten years or so. The number of revisions provides an upper limit on the number of editor interactions on talk pages. Obviously, the actual number of interactions will be much
6619:
Regarding a perceived "established/multi-topic interested Wikipedian" vs "less-established more and/or more singularly focused Wikipedian" divide, I'm not sure this tells you anything very useful. There is already training material teaching people how to resemble a multi-topic interested Wikipedian.
5740:
recent diffs of disruption by those parties, and links to prior discussions of that disruption that did not resolve it. I think instead of motions, it'd be better for arbcom to close this ARCA without any specific action now but with an invitation for editors to request arbcom's review by presenting
5719:
in under 500 words per person. Limiting talk page discussions to 500 words would be very counterproductive to building an encyclopedia, in any topic area, because it would prevent people from discussing anything in any serious depth. Many of us can't even comment on this month-long ARCA in under 500
5667:
kind of simple. Yes, there are also good-faith content disputes, as to be expected, but the disruption--the edit warring, the source misrepresentation, the POV-pushing--that's largely from socks. And the response to those socks is not POV-pushing from the other side. Following RS is not POV pushing.
5655:
There have been some names named on this page. I remember them participating in disputes about East Jerusalem and Palestinian origins, but I don't remember them ever trying to change an article to say that West Jerusalem was Palestinian, or Jews aren't from Israel. And I don't see any diffs of that.
5582:
made the "other people do it, too" argument and listed a bunch of other editors, and it went downhill from there, as those editors predictably defended themselves and the discussion focused on their conduct rather than HaOfa's (despite my attempts to refocus it). I agree with TBF that an AE referral
5312:
good faith editors from the topic area. In the event that a full case is opened, I agree that it is most appropriate to only have the individuals whose behavior is under examination to be considered as parties. But, before that list is finalized, we might want to have some space for the community to
2847:
Regarding the proposed Remedy 5: This is a hypothetical loophole situation, but one I believe is likely to happen at some point. Lets say there is a five paragraph section and User A places hidden comments covering paragraphs 2 and 3 during discussion at the talk page. User B thinks that paragraph
2453:
If a change to the status of userspace is to be considered, I suggest that arbcom consider all CT topics and not just ARBPIA. Personally I don't understand why an editor should be forbidden from mentioning the topic in their own user space (unless they are actively disruptive there). For example, an
15485:
I apologise for the tardiness of my comments; I've been reading and thinking all along but I've had limited time to type out my thoughts, which requires a proper keyboard. I am reluctant to hold a PIA5, at least at this time and via this vehicle. I thought it was likely to come up and is one of the
14657:
This is a very bad idea because it will give editors the tool to lock out any material they dont like for any reason. They can then filibuster at the talkpage and make it virtually impossible to reinstate the material because "no consensus has been reached". Recently something very similar happened
14325:
parties in this and other controversial topic areas no matter what they are, in which the off-wiki fighting is intense and Knowledge is just one area in a wide-ranging conflict. Knowledge is not equipped to deal with such situations adequately. Hell we can't even keep the discussions civil. We have
13818:
list of parties - to the point that I would not feel it unreasonable for people like myself, whose editing in the area is limited to participation in a small number of discussions with a small number of comments. However, the root cause of these problems isn't the sockpuppetry (where it occurs), it
13701:
On a practical note, reducing the ability of individual editors to dominate a conversation by instituting either a limit on word count or percentage, would allow more voices to sustainably opine with succint policy based arguments without having to compete for eyeball attention and save clerks more
13411:
of Israels' supporters. It was their incessant rape- and murder- threats which brought about this policy. AFAIK, Number 57 has never been threatened with murder for editing wiki, or seeing his loved ones being raped (And I am happy -and relieved- he hasn't!), but I wish he would try to imagine how
13282:
A PIA5 case has the possibility to go completely FUBAR if it attempts to litigate the entirety of the topic area and regular editors in those areas. This is a stupidly contentious topic and I suspect if we looked at the complete records of every regular editor a well-meaning member of ArbCom could
13259:
The committee will have the power to delete, merge and rename articles by consensus within their own group, without having to go through the regular article deletion. merge or rename processes. Anyone can, of course, comment on the talk page and make suggestions. But only the committee can actually
13201:
I don't think word count limits would help. A bright-line rule against bludgeoning might help avoid lengthy discussions filled with redundancies, but that isn't the core issue. Enforcing behavioral policies more rigorously might help attract a few more neutral editors. The real solution would be to
13018:, replying more so to you because you've provided the strongest argument against my own and have convinced me to some degree. The most critical issue, in my opinion, is tag-teaming. Which regular editors in the area are working together to !vote lockstep, always in a way that favors the same cause?
12811:
A response to Bluethricecreamman's comments: NOTAVOTE (an essay, not a rule) is not really relevant; closes against the majority of views expressed only tend to occur when there is a clear right/wrong (e.g. alignment with a certain policy or guideline). In this topic area, most things are arguable,
12757:
that Badgering and Wikilawyering particularly scares off many that would like to approach the topic, so we're left with the same faces over and over again, and also the same problems. It is very rare in these interminable discussions that I see people give an iota. There is no end in sight, because
12255:
deal with that, in practice it's been reluctant to for one reason or another - many of the experienced editors in question often straddle a line of problematic behavior that AE has seemed unwilling to definitively bring down the hammer on (hence my WP:UNBLOCKABLE concerns mentioned above), and that
12021:
And re Nableezy's comment about me – disingenuous at best. For context, what I objected to was including the same paragraph of text about the legal status of Israeli settlements in the introduction of every single article on a settlement – my view was that everyone knows they are illegal and simply
11995:
A response to Bluethricecreamman's comments: NOTAVOTE (an essay, not a rule) is not really relevant; closes against the majority of views expressed only tend to occur when there is a clear right/wrong (e.g. alignment with a certain policy or guideline). In this topic area, most things are arguable,
11973:
Re LokiTheLiar's comment below that "a lot of the worst behavior is from new-ish users", I would say that is only partially correct. These users tend to be the worst in terms of edit warring and other more flagrant violations of Knowledge rules. However, IMO the real issue here is the fact that the
11340:
About what ToBeFree said, I suspect that the information that would be made available to ArbCom via the case request page would look incredibly similar to what you already have here, so it would just be a bureaucratic waste of time to start over from scratch. And as for any aspersions that everyone
11222:
If this weren't very clear from my statement above, I don't think this ought to be handled by motion. The issues here aren't simple; they need to be disentangled with care. If civility and edit-warring were the only problems, we wouldn't need ARBCOM. We need an evidence phase, and for ARBCOM to dig
10905:
Look at it from another set of angles. What is the proportion of Palestinian (zero) vs (pro-)Israeli/Jewish editors in the IP area, for example? Or what is the proportion of bias in the mainstream sources we almost invariable regard as core RS. E.g.'33,000 news articles from 1987-1993 and 2000-2005
10641:
A very large number of positions assumed to be contentious here are not so in that scholarly literature, where a large consensus on the historical realities exists. These however are relentlessly challenged by editors who don't care much for the ivory tower, but care deeply about a country to which
10415:
created since 7 October (SFR's starting point). Of the hundreds of editors active over them, show that a handful of the 'regulars' has bludgeoned, intimated, harassed, been uncivil across the board, and secured their 'pro-Pal POV'. If you can't then, all we have here is the appearance of blathering
10410:
Where is the empirical evidence for these outrageous spluttering caricatures of a very complex environment (The IP area is notorious for the huge academic industry of explanation that has grown up around it, and unless you read this material, and put aside using newspaper current events sourcing as
10085:
I understand that the list of participants is everyone who was involved in a particular AE discussion or who was mentioned in that discussion. My editing in the topic area is limited, with a limited number of articles on my watchlist. I don't intend on following this closely. If my participation is
10032:
I agree with Barkeep that this should be a full case. But Red-tailed hawk is right on his list of parties – this is a sprawling case where basically all of the regulars in the topic area have worked together to create a hostile battleground that AE hasn't been able to resolve. Not because of a lack
9919:
that there could be separate "topic area" and "editor conduct" cases and my suggestion of a delayed start to a case could be combined. So perhaps the topic area happens now and that could inform both tools (which might solve certain editor issues) and parties to a future editor conduct case. Either
9794:
Trypto: I think determining who should be party to an ArbCom case based on who happened to show up to an AE thread isn't the right way to determine a party list. The party list I gave might be too small but equally discouraging participation at AE because you might become party to a case when there
9734:
I absolutely think you should be able to present evidence about admin conduct in this topic area. Knowing the concerns you and some others had is why I included SFR in my list of potential parties. And I think it's reasonable to say something like "after that initial post by SFR there was no choice
9588:
Regarding Levivich's statement: even beyond what SFR pointed out (BANPOL is quoting Arbitration Procedures), I think Levivich operates under a fundamental misconception about AE. Levivich seems to view AE as a community forum, where as I feel it is, as the name of Arbitration Enforcment suggests an
9532:
no further action would have been needed as ArbCom (arbs/clerks) would do the rest of the steps? If so that is definitely easier than the answer I gave (close with a rough consensus to refer by an uninvolved admin, uninvolved admin files a case request here, and notifies all interested editors) and
9086:(c) The top 20 contributors made 23% of the edits. I don't know how to check this, but I'm guessing that in most areas of similar size the top 20 contributors make a larger fraction of edits than this. Without this information, it cannot be concluded that a small cabal of editors dominate the area.
8625:
As a general note, I think one of the issues with the topic area is that it is common for editors to refuse to acknowledge their own POV, while frequently insisting that the editors they disagree with have a POV. It's possible to manage a POV and edit neutrally, but only if one is able to recognize
7881:
I dont see why AE appeals should be at the discretion of the imposing admin be only heard by the committee. AE actions are already superblocks, removing two of the places they can be heard turns them closer to super duper blocks. The threshhold to overturn an AE action is already pretty high, and I
7800:
This page is considerably more "toxic" than nearly any talk page in this topic area. Any number of people are making winking references to editors and claiming some misbehavior with absolutely zero evidence besides their vibes. Not to mention the way over the top comments by one admin. I cant say I
7494:
In terms of motions, can anyone think of any simple practical measures that might reduce the impact of ban evasion on the topic area? Unfortunately, it seems that ban evading users tend to be sampled from the ends of the bias spectrum and some have a tendency to start fires. It could be argued that
7239:
Again, hats off to BilledMammal for bring the receipts. Little time to look in detail right now and probably plenty to think about. But one quick comment on 'it demonstrates that the issue of sockpuppets is less significant than we believe.' The amount of sock activity is a difficult thing to image
6018:
TLDR; battleground fractures into dozens of talk pages that aren't necessarily pov-forks, same arguments pushed everywhere in each RFC. Better guidelines on how to be more succinct with RFCs on this topic, and how to discuss WP:ARBPIA topics on pages that aren't necessarily centered on ARBPIA would
5813:
may be true, but there is not widespread agreement on which way that bias runs. This widespread belief is not a problem that can be fixed, or that we can even try to fix. There will always be widespread belief that Knowledge articles are biased, just like there is widespread belief that the rest of
5635:
Does "pro-Israeli" mean pro-Netanyahu, or pro-the hundreds of thousands of Israelis marching in the streets protesting Netanyahu? Does "pro-Palestinian" mean pro-Fatah or pro-Hamas? And if the truth makes one side look good and the other look bad, does that mean it's "pro-" one side and "anti-" the
5143:
select IBANs, TBANs, individual anti-bludgeoning restrictions, and topic-wide restrictions on the length of posts people make in discussions within this topic area. However, because the discussion broadly turned into a set of complex and multi-party complaints regarding behavior of multiple editors
3720:
I think there's merit to the primary article distinction. This is a sprawling topic area; not on the scale of some contentious topics, but still broad. And there's a difference between the core set of articles that document the conflict and other articles that are not necessarily about the conflict
3125:
points A, B, and C establish the proper enforcement actions to be taken, without need for any reference to "primary articles" and "related content" — a distinction that few if any other cases maintain. I would therefore support a motion defining the "area of conflict" to simply be "the Arab-Israeli
2789:
I think it would be easy to make it clear when mentioning talk space we meant user talk space and are not forbidding edit requests when the specific sanction allows them. Surely we don't want non-extended-confirmed-editors to be able add material to their own userspace they cannot added elsewhere.
2205:
I am only "proposing" that this "technicality" which has not been identified by myself, be fixed up, I'm just initiating the paperwork, to the extent anyone thinks that it is required. What I want is that it not be available as a defense by non EC editors, currently two of them mentioning it, and I
17629:
Not necessarily, as tagging by itself does not automatically lead to deletion discussions and in fact articles may sometimes stay with notability tags for years without getting deleted. Adding a problem tag is not in general participating in deletion discussions. They can tell on the talkpage what
15345:
The reason this was referred here was because the interaction between a specific group of editors and any issues caused by this was deemed too complex for AE to examine and address. A proper examination is needed to adequately address any issues, and if we're going to make a decision based on this
15271:
To your first question, while I have a good idea of what these issues are based on the statements and preliminary examinations of some of the articles/talk pages, evidence that certain issues are substantially more common and disruptive than others would be helpful in determining the scope. To the
15096:
After reading the AE thread and the above statements, I think ArbCom will need to take some sort of action. I agree with L235 that I would like admins, both those involved in the AE and those that were not, to comment on whether it should be a full case or, if we are to resolve by motion, describe
14709:
Seems that I've come here as this C&A is sunsetting. I am not sure about whether the motions will have an impact, but I imagine they are worth trying. Generally I agree with the comments made by Tryptofish, Swatjester and Number 57. I've reviewed the charts that have been proffered here, and I
14330:
at that. Administrators have failed. Arbcom has failed. We, the editors, have failed. We need to admit that we haven't done a good job of keeping these articles free of bias. We need to concede that in these subject areas we cannot prevent bias from creeping into and even overwhelming articles. We
14320:
sides of the controversies. That is certainly true with these articles. It is also true that these articles have the potential for bringing the project into disrepute. Is an article too pro-X? Is it too pro-Y? Is there canvassing by editors for X? Is there canvassing by editors for Y? Let's not be
13516:
say they have received death treaths, and I have no reason to disbelieve them, and I am very sorry they have done so, BUT: Do you deny that the threats against "the-not-so-pro-Israli"-editors is far greater than against the "pro-israeli" editors? After all, your talk-pages are blissfully clean of
13425:
I agree fully with Zero0000's asseccment: "There is a reason why many editors who enter the I/P area quickly decide that it is toxic and controlled by a cabal. It's because they come along armed with nothing except strong political opinions and a few newspaper articles, and don't like it when they
13403:
As for Number 57 view: "the 30/500 restriction has actively worsened this situation by giving the long-term problematic editors an advantage" As an editor who has been "credited" by off-wiki web-sites and blogs with bringing about this rule, I can say: "credit where credit is due", namely with the
12931:
style editing, even when they have high edit counts or several years of experience. This will always be a contentious topic, but it is possible to prioritize the sources over your own beliefs when editing in contentious topics. The current regulars have forced out anyone who might be willing to do
12586:
ArbCom should be aware that the table BilledMammal has offered as evidence above (Bludgeoning statistics) is deeply flawed. Efforts to encourage him to include a disclaimer noting that his "methodology" does not control for the presence of bludgeoning sockpuppets in discussions (for example) were
12047:
Nableezy, I had been calling people in the topic area POV pushers for years before the discussion you reference and my issues with you also started well before then as well. While I have been accused of bias, it has come from both sides, and that gives me reassurance that I must be doing something
11794:
While my user page has remained remarkably free of vandalism I have received death threats and threats to my family, specifically targeting me as a Jew, through Knowledge that were so bad that WMF Legal had to be involved at one point. I'm not the cat you're looking for; please keep me out of your
11718:
Motion 3, Involved participants: This would reward sockpuppetry and canvassing, and silence contributions from editors with the most knowledge of the topic and the underlying dispute. Beyond that it's just not practical - would every editor only get to weigh in on one RFC in the topic, ever, after
11682:
Going over the motions, I don't think that any of them are likely to help. The core problems in the topic area are sockpuppetry, meatpuppetry, and canvassing, coupled with the scale and intensity of the underlying real-world conflict, which inevitably spills over into editing and leads to knock-on
11515:
I really think that ArbCom has an obligation to deal with these problems via full cases, and not simply motions. But if the difficulties of creating a named parties list are getting in the way of a single, large case, then the idea posed by several other editors, of having one case about the topic
11370:
Responding now to Harry Mitchell's comment, I'm worried that ArbCom is starting to over-think this. Focus on conduct, not on which sources are definitive. Have an Evidence page. Editors will either provide evidence of misconduct, or they won't, and ArbCom can tell the difference. You've got enough
11260:
The motions being considered may provide useful administrative tools in some cases, but to my mind they do not touch the heart of the problem. We are at ARCA because the disputes are too involved for AE to separate good-faith content dispute from bad-faith editing. I don't see how we can reach any
11179:
I really don't want to be involved in this business, but while there is a lot of suboptimal behavior in this topic area, it amazes me some of what can be described as an "edit war" or sanctionable conduct. If these standards were enforced across the board to all editors regardless of their content
10959:
Good grief. What on earth has sympathizing with a 'side', presumably either collectively 'Israelis' or 'Palestinians' got to do with it. It's not a football match where people look on, 'rooting for' (that is extremely vulgar in Australia, where we say 'barrack') our side, and, in doing so, boo the
10767:
the IP area. What it does show is that several editors you would include under that description devote more than half, or indeed in a few cases, most of their attention to the topic area. Greek studies are 'dominated' by people who've mastered the topic- That doesn't mean they are 'domineering' as
10560:
That incident occurred 17 years ago, when I was new to wikipedia, and, faced with an inexplicable administrative punishment (technically) I made the inferences one can see. I wouldn't do that now. What you don't deny is the gravamen of those two incidents (a) you used your administrative tools to
9895:
My thinking is that if ArbCom feels like they have enough information to make a clear statement other than "we don't see a problem" they should just take action themselves rather than telling AE admin how to do it. I think the potential tools is a far better alternative to any statement they might
7801:
would be looking forward to a case, as to be blunt with you all ArbCom historically has focused on the surface issues of these topics and not the actual root causes, but either open a case or dont. That or aggressively clerk some of these statements. That is if we want "decorum" to apply here too.
7647:
My view is that if this is to be an arbitration case that it should be pretty wide, and not just the four editors Barkeep named. The tendentious editing, including obvious examples of canvassing and off-wiki coordination, in this topic area stretches well beyond those four names, and I don’t think
7474:
I don't think "restore faith in the project that many do not have, or have lost" is a valid objective. Policy compliance has no dependency at all on the amount of faith people out in the world have in it. The fact that there are plenty of easily manipulated people out there who can be persuaded to
7317:
Regarding labelling editors pro-this or pro-that, this is a useful shorthand for casual discussion, but for analysis labelling should really be deterministic/repeatable/based on a decision procedure etc. Also, if I had to apply a label to myself it would be pro-Knowledge (or maybe pro-human...that
7219:
I'll also add that in my view, a case that only includes parties who do not employ deception, who are not evading topic bans/blocks etc., is about as likely to succeed in producing good results as a study that only includes data from participants who are easy to access, while ignoring an important
7164:
for their evidence-based approach. This way, people can discuss methodology and evidence rather than assert things about the state of PIA. Now, I was a bit disappointed to only score 89% for the percentage edits in the topic area because it is supposed to 100%, or thereabouts as it says on my user
5981:
Going off of the suggestion from ScottishFR, for the limit of 500-1000 words, some of these RFC discussions go long. Instead of absolute limits that could unfairly limit discussion among the most passionate editors of the topic, would it be possible to go with proportional limits (no more than 500
5686:
So when you see some people argue that East Jerusalem is in Israel and Palestinians aren't from there, and another group saying that's not true, please don't label them "pro-Israeli" and "pro-Palestinian." The most efficient way to handle it is to look at the RS, figure out which side is following
5504:
I don't think the AEs I filed are particularly "complex" or "multi-party". I think they're straightforward, and each one can be judged on its merits without considering the actions of other parties. Of the 5 I filed, 1 ended in sanctions, 2 in warnings, no problems with those. The PeleYoetz one is
3050:
This should be changed in my opinion, and I am inclined to support the removal of the userspace exemption as edit requests should be sufficient to allow non-extended-confirmed editors to participate with minimal disruption in the area. The current state allows them to wait 30 days, make 500 purely
17971:
adding Notability tags to articles: I don't see this as an issue. While I have personal beliefs about tag bloat, and think they should be used more sparingly than we do, placing a tag is not a deletion or a discussion. While it might eventually prompt someone else to AfD the article, I see such a
16265:
Editors designated "involved" in the area of conflict may not register a bolded vote in formal discussions but may offer opinions and are encouraged to offer sources. Editors may designate themselves involved in the entire topic area or a subset of it, or may be designated by an uninvolved admin.
15983:
Seems reasonable. There is many a discussion where an editor goes on to bludgeon a conversation by dint of replying endlessly and exhausting a books worth of words. Since bludgeoning can be quite hard to handle, I think a wordlimit is a useful tool that can be imposed on editors for whom that has
15426:
During their absence, the report became a discussion about general behavior of multiple users in the area, then expectably too much to handle at AE, and now we're here with multiple arbitrators indicating an interest in opening a case. What I personally don't entirely get is how all this happened
13916:
is a disallowed title, the closer of the original RM found consensus for that title, and many seasoned editors agreed. If Domeditrix and others think we should be evaluating discussions in a fundamentally different way from how we've historically done so, for example by not counting votes at all,
13118:
I appreciate that HJ Mitchell is doing what we elected him to do and trying to get solve the problem. With that said, I'm also not a fan of these proposals. They seem geared toward the "loud" disruption, when the accusations of "quiet" disruption are why it got referred to Arbcom. Just a few days
12915:
The habit of always !voting in a way that benefits the same nation is a problem, and it becomes obvious when someone uses one reasoning to come to one conclusion but then uses the opposite reasoning when it's the other side up for discussion. This is commonly answered with the contradictory ideas
12883:
I would also like to say that my assessment of the behavior of established editors is notably less negative than many other people here. I basically agree with nableezy: it's inherently a contentious topic area and so disagreements are common and will always be common. It's also unsurprising that
12562:
I think we are all looking at the wrong thing. We are discussing editor behavior, but we should be looking at the quality of the articles in the topic area. And, I think we can all agree, the articles are abysmal. They are bloated with polemics, they magnify ephemeral new items into international
11827:
I appreciate the words written in support. With regard to the question of whether I think the "not so Israeli" side receives more threats than the Israeli side -- I don't know. I'm not sure how I *could* know as I wouldn't be privy to threats received in private much like you weren't privy to the
11625:
to see (hence why so many cases focus on it), but if that was enough to resolve this then we wouldn't be at ArbCom. The root cause is battleground mentalities and civil POV-pushing; misrepresenting sources and taking inconsistent policy positions point much more directly to that problem. (And, of
11389:
This would be fine, but it doesn't do anything about the topic area in general, and I'm not convinced that AE can't handle that. Possibly not as drive-by allegations in a thread about another editor, but if a separate complaint is filed with clear evidence on each editor for admins to evaluate, I
11355:
Adding to that: Although numerous editors are asking where the evidence is, for starting a full case with multiple parties, the correct answer is that evidence will be presented, and critically evaluated for whether it is valid or not, on the Evidence page of the case. ArbCom should make it clear
11275:
Topic-wide enforced BRD is a bad idea. It is needed on some pages, and admins have the power to require it. Elsewhere, it just allows endless opportunities to stall constructive change. A hallmark of the ARBPIA disputes recently at AE is that editors were making reflexive reverts and not engaging
10381:
Everyone here knows which users I'm talking about and which sides they fall on . . This will always be a contentious topic, but it is possible to prioritize the sources over your own beliefs when editing in contentious topics. The current regulars have forced out anyone who might be willing to do
9960:
the case) would be my most serious suggestion. In more of a brainstorming mode, somehow structure evidence slightly differently (post themes - source manipulation, edit warrning, etc and allow submissions for that them), you could do summary style again (would not recommend given how much time it
9488:
of referring need work, but I don't think AE admins need to be told to bold vote something in order to find consensus to refer. All 4 uninvolved admins - with 4 uninvolved admins being a lot of admins these days - agreed to refer, and all 4 were (as best as I can tell) clear about what each other
9216:
Any appeals of sanctions by editors previously warned or sanctioned in ARBPIA should be handled by Arbcom to take pressure off individual administrators. Arbcom discussions have clerks to handle word limits, aspersions, and other disruptive editing. Arbcom can simply vote on if the sanction was a
7663:
It seems highly likely that this is going to be accepted as a full case, but I do want to push back on some of the claims being bandied about here. There is this misconception that there are "pro-Israel" editors vs "pro-Palestinian" editors, and that is both not true and has never been true. Once
7517:
I don't have any ideas other than perhaps lowering the barrier for checkuser tool usage in PIA to a set of simple triggers like edit warring, receiving a block, ban evasion-like behavior (e.g. mismatch between edit count and experience), anything that could be considered "disruptive editing", the
7396:
And being reported is not the same as being blocked. There are many "discovered" sockpuppets operating in the topic area right now. Many people in the topic area can "see" the socks like bright objects. They are part of the community of editors, they are major contributors, they have an important
7032:
PIA topic area - project membership (3019 articles). Articles that are members of both Wikiproject Israel and Palestine. This is the approach BilledMammal uses, so thanks for that. Neither of these methods capture every article that a person would say is in the topic area, they are both different
6441:
The difficulty is that following "referral", based on a case that was not even resolved, 4 editors were designated for investigation with no apparent basis or other case specified as reasons for such an investigation. If no-one else had replied in the referred case, none of us would be here right
5651:
Somebody tries to get Knowledge to say that Palestinians are not indigenous or native to Palestine. Pro-Israeli POV-pushing. The pro-Palestinian version of that would be somebody trying to get Knowledge to say that Jews are not indigenous or native to Israel (or Palestine, call it what you will).
5512:
There is nothing for arbcom to do here. People who are concerned about disruption in the topic area should raise it at one of the community noticeboards. A sprawling, unfocused case with lots of parties, is a terrible idea, as has been proven multiple times by past arbcoms, and this is especially
5182:
Additionally, as I can't find any prior examples of referrals by looking through the archive, I have tried to do my best here in light of the fact that this is a referral rather than a standard amendment request/appeal. Arbitrators should not hesitate to let me know if I have formatted this in an
15178:
Sorry that I did not answer your question sooner, as the ping was lost on my end. As the instructions are written, the admin that closes the AE discussion determines the consensus of admin who commented on the case. If the closing admin determines that the consensus is an ARCA referral or a case
13026:
Your definition of "behaving tendentiously" would be a huge step in the right direction, but we'd need to flesh it out in a way that might be impossible. I've raised the issue at AE before, but no one could provide an example of what diffs are necessary to demonstrate this. Even though—if we all
12863:
As an occasional participant in this topic area, I'd like to second Zero's suggestion that mass topic bans are not likely to be useful because a lot of the worst behavior is from new-ish users. ArbCom already got a taste of this earlier this year when it banned a bunch of pro-Israel meatpuppets.
12733:
on a scale that I've frankly not encountered anywhere else on Knowledge in my history of making active edits, though I accept I am far below the median in this discussion by this metric. This, in combination with a format for resolving disputes that often seems to favour the most mobilised side,
11724:
Motion 4, Enforced BRD: This would make editing in the topic area a glacial slog; it would also add a massive first-mover advantage to anyone who creates an article. Because the R in BRD can't be used to "uncreate" an article, someone could create a highly-biased article and then force extensive
11415:
able to handle it, and you and maybe some other Arbs are saying the opposite. Handing the problem back to AE with an admonition to do it better is what will do nothing about the topic area. From my limited experience, bringing a case about one editor at a time to AE results in walls of text that
11018:
I find that extraordinary, a wild caricature and misreading of several distinct reactions to BM’s chart. Perhaps that simply because I can't remember reading anything in a very long thread that might support it. Other than Nableezy’s use of the term ‘lying/dishonest’ – for which he said he would
10876:
could morph into the nationalism of modern Israel, In that sense, Palestinians are incidental, to a much broader point-of-view. And lastly, there was this vast disparity between the cusp of scholarship and mainstream reportage, and editors were basically drawing on the latter, which is no way to
10492:
and 'the usual suspects' (people like myself) might give the impression of a detached view by an experienced admin. Not quite true. You admitted 17 years ago that you used your admin tools to unblock an Israeli editor for a 3R infraction because, offline he contacted you and convinced you he was
10000:
one of the reasons I requested CU back was to help in this topic area. But the CU policy has a globally established floor (one which is monitored by the Ombuds who report directly to the Board of the WMF which underscores how seriously its taken). Unlike most global policies where enwiki has far
9058:
BilledMammal invites me to describe my own pov. In the early days of WP when many editors had never heard of academic journals and very few of the best sources were online, I played a large part in making scholarly writing the gold standard in I/P topics. My philosophy is that articles should be
6213:
The feeling is that a bunch of 5-10 experienced editors have taken dominance over the area. Much of their edit histories show a focus on promoting one side's POV and discarding the other. Although some problematic editing occurs on both sides, it should be noted that the extent of POV editing on
5723:
Excluding "involved" participants - "Editors designated "involved" in the area of conflict" would be everyone who edits in ARBPIA. I'm not sure of the thinking behind putting restrictions on everybody who edits ARBPIA. There certainly isn't any evidence that everybody who edits ARBPIA is editing
17854:
When I made my votes on the relevant remedies, I did not consider merging processes. If I had been asked then, I probably would have said those would merit voting on separate or amended remedies, as our processes for merging are separate from those for deletion, and never require the use of the
17833:
I seem not to have been completely clear in my earlier comment. My point was not that editors should be free to ignore topic-bans if they are making (what they perceive as) beneficial edits. It is that the scope of a topic-ban in the first place should be keyed to the scope of the problem it is
17433:
deletion discussions; it's more nuanced than that (to be fair, is AE really set up for nuance?). Rather, that, in your metaphor, it's not whether content should be deleted, but whether it should live in the reader's eye or out of their sight. A merge is not a deletion, but that is not to say it
13834:
There are more than enough editors who, if those whose only response to disagreement is to turn up the heat are removed, would be willing to contribute in the topic area to keep the encyclopedia running. The result of this case will determine whether I myself will feel like my contributions are
12538:
It’s a small group of editors making this topic area hell for editors and a headache (I’d imagine) for administrators. I used to involve myself heavily in this topic area, and it’s the only such area where I’ve witnessed personal attacks, bullying, glaring dishonesty and hypocrisy in defense of
11950:
I edit around the edge of this topic area, focussing on Israeli politics and civil society, and have had the misfortune over the years to have ended up in disputes with editors pushing both anti-Israel and pro-Israel POV on articles where our paths corss. I very much welcome the suggestion that
11416:
include attempts to demonize the editor who first filed the AE report. After one such experience, I gave up on AE for this topic area, and I gave up on trying to edit in this topic area. (And I know better than to name names here on this request page, as opposed to on an eventual Evidence page.)
10232:
irrespective of contexts, so if I revert an unfactual or unsourced piece of WP:OR, I immediately am, like the abusive, often new, editor, engaged in a revert war and, if the abusive editor persists, anyone else who restores the accurate text is tagteaming with me. Crazy). I have been repeatedly
7698:
I dont want to get too caught up in what I think are opinions of people uninformed on both the actual editing in this topic area as well as being generally uninformed on what the sources actually support in this topic area. Ill just restate that this is not "pro-Israel" vs "pro-Palestinian" POV
7682:
reading of my initial comment, I dont mean to say that civility does not matter, of course it does. But I also think people need to keep in mind that human beings are emotional creatures and that this is a topic that anybody who is involved in the real world is going to have moments where those
6963:
be dealt with somewhat easily via SPI, but that would probably require significant changes to current norms about checkuser usage and evidence. What I would like to see, just out of interest, are experiments e.g. split the topic area up into article subsets, have different rule sets for the
5818:
has "neutral" in the title, but it redefines the word to mean something unique on Knowledge. NPOV doesn't mean free of bias, it means we adopt mainstream bias. We say in wikivoice what the mainstream says, we identify dissenting views that the mainstream deems significant, and ignore the others
5612:
If no one else other than Levivich had replied, some quorum of admin would have been able to reach consensus on האופה. The fact that the replies that actually happened split the focus in a way that AE is ill-equipped to handle is why I ultimately (if reluctantly) agreed we should refer the case
3087:
describes; the CT page describes what is and is not under the ECR restriction in a way that is entirely compatible with the wording of ECR. ECR covers the area of conflict, and userspace is not in area of conflict. However it can be as "technically correct" as possible, but if it's confusing or
2771:, I'm afraid I don't recall in any greater depth than my comments at the workshop, sorry. The userspace exception was suggested by Huldra and Zero0000, who made some comments re: user talk pages that on review, look like reasonable concerns; whether or not they're still applicable I can't say. ♠
17618:
I don't have a horse in this race, but generally I'd say that if somebody's TBan says "broadly construed", they shouldn't test its boundaries. It is generally a bad idea whether it is broadly construed or not, because they already have drawn attention from admins, but particularly so with this
17328:
tag, as I am not using it for anything other than its intended purpose. Whatever happens to the article after I tag it is entirely in the hands of other editors, and as stated above, I am no longer trying to persuade others to send content to XFD. I have noticed that a couple articles I tagged
13159:. This often leads to situations where there's an apparent consensus which goes against (the natural or customary interpretation of) our content policies. The result is passionate edit warring, with one side righteously enforcing consensus, and the other righteously enforcing content policies.
10055:
i think it's pretty clear looking at the chart that the number of new editors spiked because of the war (given that it spiked last october). i don't think you can claim from that chart alone what the impact of the regulars has been; it'd be ludicrous to say that the temperature in this area is
9779:
I can appreciate and support Trypto's scope, though I'd suggest that a narrower party list is appropriate. I would also note that, today, we've had an editor present evidence right here about the topic area and multiple others accuse that editor of lying about the evidence. This suggests three
9137:
I'm sure BilledMammal's counts are more or less correct. Sean.hoyland is getting similar figures. What I object to is posting a mass of figures then claiming it proves things which it doesn't prove. Drawing conclusions from the data requires much more than a first impression. First it requires
8949:
I don't think ArbCom has an obligation to resolve the AE case. The fact is that there is nothing about it which AE could not handle perfectly well by itself. What you should do is send it back to AE (taking the cue from the practice of appellant courts sending cases back to the referring lower
8895:
why many editors who enter the I/P area quickly decide that it is toxic and controlled by a cabal. It's because they come along armed with nothing except strong political opinions and a few newspaper articles, and don't like it when they meet experienced editors familiar with the vast academic
5307:
Thank you for your comment. I think that a full case/case-like structure would be best, as that is the sort of thing that would allow for clear examination of the complex multi-party disputes that AE is not quite able to handle well. In my view, I don't think the topic-wide "please be brief in
2659:
A decision is added to the index explicitly allowing CTOP restrictions to apply to edits made in relation to related content anywhere on Knowledge to close the loophole currently exempting userspace completely. This would mean, however, that to be covered user talk pages would need to have the
17137:
believe that the topic ban included a merger request. I was not "testing the boundaries", and had not done anything like that, abiding in good faith for the last two years. I posted things on that article talk page. There I made a mistake concerning the attribution of a needless irrelevant
16674:
I deliberately kept it vague because "recent" means different things in different contexts. In the context of the ongoing war where information changes rapidly and articles are edited to keep up, an edit from an hour ago might be outdated and buried in the history but some of the higher-level
13839:
Since this ARCA has been opened, there has been at least two more AE requests related to this topic area. ArbCom would do good to actually state their intentions on this issue - either open a case (or voice your intention to do so more clearly) so that AE admins can focus on other topic areas
13694:
Enforcement in this area has been largely ineffective. The net result is a hostile/toxic environment. Remaining editors face a dilemma to either disengage (probably the healthier option) or furiously engage (also bringing the worst side of all parties involved). This does not mean someone who
8664:
I also think, Levivich, that you're too focused on the sock issue. It exists, although perhaps it is not as impactful as we previously believed, but socks aren't the only issue in the topic area. POV-pushing among established editors is also rife, and is far more impactful than POV-pushing by
7267:
Note: this statement of mine "obviously limited to only talking about logged blocked socks" is not really true. There is also the network of sock related categories that might contain accounts assigned to sockmasters that do not have log entries that I would capture or log entries at all. The
5583:
means Arbcom should review my report against HaOfa -- meaning, look at my conduct and HaOfa's conduct -- and complaints about other editors should be brought separately, with diffs not aspersions, and a showing that some other conduct dispute resolution was first tried. Because even if Arbcom
14689:
Then a potential Motion 5 could go into restrictions in place on those involved, such as unable to close discussions, only one new discussion a day, twenty comment limit a day for talk pages under ARBPIA, 1RR limit, must have 2.5k edits to participate outside edit requests, any and all other
14445:
I would also suggest that within contentious topic areas it would be good to rule that POV neutrality is more important than ever. If Knowledge is seen to be taking sides it undermines the credibility of the whole project. It also is more likely to create fights etc. I would encourage the
13592:
say. And the scholars call it a genocide. I was once accused by a off-wiki website of "undermining the factual history of Israel on Knowledge by creating false documentation that shows nearly 400 Arab villages were allegedly depopulated by Jews and Israel." Well, guess what: even Israeli
10525:
re my putative 'atrocious behavior within this topic area'. You don't have to believe me when I say I don't hold grudges. But I have by all accounts a good memory. If someone out of the blue, whom I haven't seen around for 17 years, implies that I am one of the 'usual suspects', a sealioning
9634:
FWIW, I agree with the observations made by both Trypto and Nableezy that the "sides" here don't neatly align on pro-Israel/pro-Palestinian. Beyond the nuances they both have offered, I have seen a definite "established/multi-topic interested Wikipedian" vs "less-established more and/or more
9212:
As a sanction across the topic area, or added to the standard set of CTOP enforcement mechanisms available to administrators on a per editor or per discussion sanction, a 500 word limit in any discussion under 5000 words, and a 1000 word or 10% of the discussion limit, whichever is lower, on
9161:. This will be a gift to tag-teams, who will get 500 words per person. Also, this will prevent the most productive comments, which bring reliable sources and quote from them. This motion would effectively limit discussions to "you say, I say", when they should be "this reliable source says".
13225:
So long as we remain in the realm of editor behavioral change, we will get nowhere. What is required is structural change. In this topic area, we need to abandon the open consensual editing model that has been at the heart of Knowledge since its inception. Here is what I propose that we do:
11237:
I fully endorse what Zero has to say about academic sourcing, but I disagree with the conclusion. There are editors here who are engaging constructively, and editors who aren't: and to determine who is in which category ARBCOM really needs to examine the content and the sourcing editors are
10863:
on our emigration to Australia; to the unusual circumstances of having a father and mother each with a very odd, in a racist Australian world, tradition of sympathy for Zulus and aborigines; to having a Downie as our youngest sister, to an adolescent reading of Holocaust memoirs; to reading
5913:
about Al Jazeera, etc. The downgrading of the ADL, in particular, caused significant media coverage for barely much difference in the status quo of average Wikipedian (from my understanding, we already had significant warnings about using ADL with attribution only when speaking about Israel
16645:
SFR has raised a good point: "recent" is a vague definition. I'm thinking we could clarify it as either 1) reverting any edit made within the last 24 hours or 2) reverting the most recent edit to an article if it hasn't been edited in more than 24 hours. But that definitely adds a level of
11895:
With regard to the proposed motions: I don't have confidence that they're going to fix the problem, but they're all pretty harmless so why not try them..... except Motion #3. That one seems quite dangerous to me, actually when read in conjunction with Motion #1. It creates the risk that an
11022:
It would take a very long time to work one’s way through that chart. Tomorrow I will be travelling for a month, so I won't be participating in the Arbcom deliberations, if they take place. But in a quick check in the little time I've had, I found that BM’s conclusion that there were only 2
15520:
Trying something different to see if we can break the deadlock without spending months on a case. I think we can have concise community feedback on individual motions to help with readability. These are all without prejudice to a case, now or at a later date. I'm also open to other ideas.
13528:
To re-iterate: some of the worst abuse I have recieved is over removing "in Israel" from places which have been occupied by Israel since 1967. This should have been totally uncontroversial, but apparently isn't. Likewise, I sometimes have to undo edits which place Arab cities in Israel in
8274:
Bolded votes in the discussion were then automatically reviewed to determine whether they supported or opposed. This process is not perfect, and manual review was then used for some of the discussions of the most prolific editors. Please raise any identified misclassifications on the talk
5505:
still open and they just made their first comment there recently. I don't see any reason admins can't review that as with any other filing. If arbs want to review that filing instead of admins, seems like overkill, but OK. האופה hasn't edited since I filed the AE 8 days ago, so while arbs
8031:
My aim was to review a representative sample of discussions in the topic space, rather than providing a sample biased towards discussions that I was aware of. To do this, I limited the discussions to two clearly defined areas; talk pages in both the Israel and Palestine Wikiprojects, and
15179:
request, it is the closing admin's responsibility to post the request at the appropriate venue. Bolded !votes sometimes help the closing admin determine the consensus. I would not rely on the clerks to open cases at ARCA because I am not sure how closely the clerk team is monitoring AE.
2619:' requires that before CTOP, ECR and 1RR are applied to any page other than an article the enforcement templates have been added to that page which is "only when disruption creates a need for additional administrative tools" and that this can never happen on userpages or user talk pages.
17138:
personal attack that had been made on that page. I corrected that (struck it out and inserted the actual quote by a different editor) and apologized. I made a mistake, and I undertook striking out the comment and also publicizing my apology. Details and an explanation of that are on
14441:
page move. Part of this is the issue associated with very close/questionable closes being hard to change. This was an example where the !vote split was near 50/50 between the current title which reads as genocide is given, and the two alternatives which both made it clear this was an
7498:
It's obviously not possible to know how many edits are made by ban evading actors, but it is possible to quantify ban and block evading revisions in the PIA topic area (or rather an approximation of the topic area - templated pages and pages in both Wikiprojects Israel and Palestine).
5732:). I don't know whether Enforced BRD or Consensus Required is better, or if either are improvements over neither, but we do not have enough data to know. Let admins apply them to pages first, and see how they work out, before we consider applying either of them to the entire topic area.
6081:
It sounds like a few of folks are leaning towards massive topic bans against all participants... Regardless of how unlikely such a proposal is, I hate the idea of "cleaning the slate" and such a broad strokes approach is likely to cause more problems than it would theoretically solve:
5331:
I believe that it might be useful for some anti-bludgeoning sanction to incorporated into the discretionary sanctions available for administrators to dole out, but if so, I think it should look like one that the community has previously endorsed in a DS area. One such sanction is that
3088:
seemingly incompatible to reasonable editors (which seems to be the case) then it's not doing it's purpose and needs to be rewritten or amended for clarity. If we're going to be imposing these atypical rules for this topic area then they need to be accessible and easily understood. -
2790:
The purpose as I understand it of the 500 edits and 30 days is to enable them to learn our policies and guidelines and hopefully how to work constructively with others. I also think we don't want non-ecr users to use their talk space or the talk space of others to discuss the topic.
17186:
initiated a MERGER proposal in 16 years of editing. Nor have I ever added Notability tags to articles. This has nothing to do with me or anything I did. I does not pertain to me and those accusations are irrelevant; you are being asked to fix something that ain't broke and didn't
12977:
12884:
many editors take editorial lines that lean towards one side or the other of the conflict: editors aren't required to have no POV, only articles are. None of this is that surprising to me for editing in a contentious topic area and I don't think that any of this per se is a problem.
9303:
Maybe this idea is wild, but how about anyone named in someone's evidence becomes a party? This isn't a court of law, and being a party doesn't mean there has to be findings or sanctions. Add that if you go over the standard word/diff limits you become a party and Bob's your uncle.
7723:
13862:. A full case, with evidence, should be opened. If after the full case, ArbCom still feels those motions are the best way to resolve this, well fine. But an ARCA is not the place to expect to be given all the evidence, so we will just end up with a case eventually. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez |
5724:
disruptively or that excluding their voices would somehow benefit the topic area. Also, experience editing a topic area is not a bad thing. I'm having a hard time seeing the logic in replacing experienced editors with inexperienced editors and expecting that to lead to improvement.
3195:
14292:
We are here because of a widespread belief, both on and off-wiki, that these articles are biased. Let's tell the public: "In this subject area, neutrality is not a given. Enter at your own risk." I think that would restore faith in the project that many do not have, or have lost.
14126:, etc., and deciding how to note-vote ought to involve basing one's decision on what sources say. Without that context, it's presuming too much to look at information presented in this manner and conclude something about an editor's "pro"-ness of X or Y or what have you, which is
5710:
Word limits - Bludgeoning can't be determined by word count or comment count, those are indicators but not determinitive; any determination requires case-by-case analysis. Also, it's a fallacy to think that long discussions are always a problem. We can't decide whether to call it
12469:
be a problem in the area, nuke or not, but it's a problem that can be dealt with somewhat easily via SPI and sockpuppeteers having an almost comical tendency to accidentally out themselves. We shouldn't just put up with how much of a mess things currently are because there's the
7707:
say about this topic, thats their problem, not mine. Im aware of my reputation on certain websites, but in my entire time here my purpose has always been to bring the best sources I can find to an article and to base the content I write and the arguments I make on those sources.
8997:
to your table, and mark Iskandar323 as supporting "massacre" in the title. Sorry that it breaks the pattern. Readers should also note the selection bias in your table: even though many editors who supposedly only support "massacre" when the victims are Palestinians frequented
6600:
Why would a person on a righteous mission hand over control of which rules they have to follow to people hostile to their cause when they can simply use disposable accounts and pick and choose which rules to follow without having to concern themselves with the consequences of
2887:
12169:, as from both sides of the POV-war, there's a near-constant attitude of "my side is doing nothing wrong, if we just sanctioned the POV-pushers everything would be fine," rather than any introspection on the absolutely toxic environment created by nearly all participants.
11014:
Your three interpretations are (BM) lied, by falsifying the facts; (b) that multiple editors replied by making personal attacks; (c) that bad faith is so deep that honest mistakes/normal editorial choices in summarizing information are read between the lines as malevolent.
8770:
For you second point, I want to say I am tired of the incivility in this topic area. It drove me from it before, with the only reason I returned to it being the current conflict, and it is sufficiently bad that I believe as soon as the current conflict ends I will withdraw
6058:
I will also say the 30/500 restriction as a "worsening" of situation seems silly. I am not quite sure about the logical reasoning behind that assertion, though some other biased publications have attempted to use that to suggest that wikipedia "censors" certain viewpoints?
9678:
in this topic area. 2) To the extent that Levivich's version of what happened at AE is true, I don't think that argues against a case; it supports the idea that thetopic area needs to be examined, not just having a single complaint against a now inactive editor resolved.
3369:
7603:
hand, some wikipedia accounts really don't want the article here to describe it as such. Many of those accounts have turned out to be sockpuppets of previous accounts long banned from this area. I'd be shocked if the Peleyoetz account named in this report isn't one, too
6938:
be dealt with somewhat easily via SPI" (my bolding) is just not true. That's what the data shows, and we have a lot of data, at least for people who advocate for Israel, less so for people who advocate for Palestine (although they are also present). If you ask questions
12077:
information, unfortunately I have had numerous people wishing me death and other unpleasant things both on and off-wiki – most recently in June an IP left numerous edit summaries on articles saying I should be tortured, stabbed, beheaded, raped or "bullied to suicide".
3421:
talk page notice should be used on pages within the area of conflict. When only parts of a page fall within the area of conflict, if there is confusion about which content is considered related, the content in question may be marked in the wiki source with an invisible
14745:
Not necessarily. If it has that effect, it can be put in reverse. I don't see the harm in trying to improve matters in these articles, even with a not-insignificant chance of failure. My guess is that the chance of failure if this BRD motion is passed is at least 50%.
13297:
Those holding up progress by causing endless circular arguments on talk pages (I'm not going to say "bludgeoning" because people may look at BilledMammal's subpage which IMO has a wildly flawed methodology for assessing this). A lot of these people are, again, new-ish
8243:
I think it also addresses your concerns regarding the parties list; because it shows that the topic area is dominated by editors who generally align with a pro-Palestinian position, we would expect that such editors would make up the majority of a representative party
8621:
As for the utility, I think it helps us determine whether concerns such as those raised by Nishidani that the party list is unrepresentative, as well as concerns such as those raised by Number 57 that the topic area is dominated by editors holding a specific POV, are
8322:
In general, that table is intended to provide on overview of the issue in the topic area, for the purpose of helping the arb's determine scope and parties. While it will be useful in any case that is opened, and I see it as evidence of POV pushing, I don't believe it
6905:
If every editor currently active in the topic area were topic banned today, the topic area would be rapidly recolonized, probably within a matter of days or weeks. The pioneers would be more likely to come from subpopulations that do not think the prohibition against
13563:: "Once discovered, a sockpuppet account is automatically blocked" No, they are not. I am 100% sure that a Tombah-sock is active at present, but he is still unblocked. And Nocal works in the tech/computer-industry and knows every trick in the book to avoid detection.
11568:
I echo the comments of Tryptofish, Vanamonde93 and SFR. The topic area features a large number of experienced editors who have, whether consciously or not, decided to ignore CTOP protocols. This not only has the effect of turning the entire topic into even more of a
8668:
The "massacre" RM's demonstrate that well; we have editors consistently, based on their own POV, saying that massacre's are only perpetrated by one side - and when we review those discussions we find that those editors present contradictory arguments to support this
8720:
That’s a discussion about moving from a title using "massacre" (Re'im music festival massacre) to a title using "massacre" (Supernova music festival massacre) In other words, the "massacre" aspect isn’t being considered, which is why it isn’t included in the table:
11453:
I predict you'll end up finding that this has a lot less to do with POV than some editors are claiming. And you won't have to judge source material the way that it happened in the Polish Holocaust case. Personally, I expect to present some evidence in the form of:
11223:
into whether editors are editing within all the PAGs, not just the ones easy to assess. I also think it would be a mistake for ARBCOM to handle all the appeals. We shouldn't be spending the limited resource that is ARBCOM's time on appeals that aren't complicated.
5928:
In terms of reversion, the reversion limits are harder to understand in CTOP space, especially for more contentious arguments. A clarification of what the "base" article text is and what the contentious edit that is being reverted is would be useful. In my case on
2871:
17315:) after a clear consensus had been made to do so by other editors. If this is indeed too adjacent to my BLAR and/or XFD topic-bans for comfort, then I will cease doing it again until the topic ban is lifted (and not try to convince other editors to do it for me).
12945:
Not only do I agree with The Kip and Zanahary that a significant number of topic bans should be on the table, but such bans are the bare minimum of what's necessary. At this point, topic bans aren't a drastic last resort. They're the first step of a slow, painful
17158:. It is unwarranted and unnecessarily punitive; and is not reflective or proportionate of my conduct or intent. A new finding will unfairly suggest that I did something wrong meriting a new set of sanctions, and would prejudice any future request to remove the
12728:
space, any current event will draw large crowds), as is often the case when we see these types of issues. Instead, editors here are often incredibly experienced, incredibly knowledgeable of processes, and thus how to make a contentious change stick. This enables
7853:
I’m not jumping to anything, you have repeatedly misrepresented others views, you have repeatedly portrayed one discussion that was focused on one topic to support positions on unrelated topics they did not focus on. You did the same exact thing at AE, where you
17653:
Because if that interpretation is correct, then basically the editor can spam AfDs with "merge" or "redirect" instead of "delete" and get away scot free because "I cannot predict if the article is gonna be deleted, I just respect the boundaries not to argue for
17242:
my comments on that talk page, and annotated that they should be disregarded, because I had been "topic banned" from DELETION discussions So if there are those who need guidance, it's not me. They did not like my content, and are putting their 'thumbs on the
13775:(and sometimes uncivil) through attempting to deprecate sources that have a bias towards opinions they disagree with. This is but one example of the experienced editors blatantly admitting to ignoring PAGs when they disagree with the inevitable outcome of them.
13336:). We do occasionally see editors pop up who reject Israeli sources out of hand on talk pages (usually alongside US and potentially even European sources), but I don't see anyone named in this report that exhibits this behavior. Such editors are shown the door.
323:
Requests for amendment are used to ask for an amendment or extension of existing sanctions (for instance, because the sanctions are ineffective, contain a loophole, or no longer cover a sufficiently wide topic); or appeal for the removal of sanctions (including
17751:
13991:. Have one case to handle the editor conduct issues highlighted at the AE thread here (focusing on individuals) and then a second one to address the climate in the topic area writ large (focusing on policy changes to the topic). Trying to conflate the two a la
15034:
7703:. Since I know he means me, Ill just state that I do not edit Knowledge to push a POV. I edit Knowledge to try to make it so that article in this topic area are based on the balance of the best sources available. And if somebody does not like what the sources
6592:
I tend to agree with Ravpapa's assessment that we have probably "exceeded the limits of the possible with a cooperative open editing model, and we need to think of some other way to approach articles in this area". I have no idea what that would look like.
17477:
Your current remarks seem incompatible with policy. Indeed uou would seem to be allowing editing through a topic ban depending on who makes them and/or the nature of the edits. This is a seismic shift in policy. Apologies if I've misunderstood any subtext.
13875:
I'm going to presume the evidence posted by Amayorov was something that would be best suited as private evidence in an ArbCom case. This is even more reason that a case should be opened rather than trying to dispense with this by motion(s). -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez |
13728:
is possible to refactor/raise a prepared PIA5 instead of starting from scratch, I would support a separate venue. Everyone should have a fair chance to bring input, but for most editors (myself included) ARCA is incredibly confusing and bureaucratic. ~ 🦝
11712:
situation and just remove the people who are unable to stop themselves. Bludgeoning is a symptom of the real problem, not its cause. Also, it would make editing in the topic area even more stressful because you'd have to constantly keep track of your word
11023:‘pro-Israeli’ editors as opposed to 13 aligning with a ‘pro-Palestinian’ position hard to reconcile with evidence on his chart of which makes him the lowest (10%) IP contributor - though he is the most familiar name to me on that list, - when it includes
12337:
from both sides of the POV-war, there's a near-constant attitude of "my side is doing nothing wrong, if we just sanctioned the POV-pushers everything would be fine," rather than any introspection on the absolutely toxic environment created by nearly all
10716:. Just out of curiosity, if Arbcom opens a case, who are the editors whose behaviour is to be examined. The list given by Red-tailed hawk, or is it larger? I say that because there is a massive imbalance in the people singled out, according to the usual
9082:(a) The table combines talk page edits and article edits (BM: you should indicate that). The fraction of a user's edits that are in article space differs a lot and needs to be considered before judging an editor's habits, but this information is missing.
17894:
11465:
But the community expects ArbCom to solve the intractable problems that the community has failed to solve. ArbCom knows that this is one of them. To drop the ball on the basis that the request process wasn't good enough would be failing the community.
8041:
Finally, as I said on the analysis page, I am willing to rerun it with different configurations, including an expanded list of discussions. I am also working to implement the recommendations on the talk page, to make the data more accurate and useful.
16159:
As I say below, given the alarm bells being rung above, and the threat of PIA5, I think we have to consider drastic measures. I have added a sunset clause because I really do think this is an extreme measure that shouldn't be in effect in perpetuity.
13030:
Regarding the academic "baseline", I don't believe there is one on most aspects. The controversy and disagreement are inherent to the subject area, including academia and history studies. The standard to declare something as a baseline fact should be
7215:
An obvious sledgehammer partial solution to Step 2 is to just EC protect every article in the PIA topic area to disincentivize disposable non-EC account creation, but Step 1 should not happen in the first place and is clearly much harder to address.
2260:
Depends what you mean by edge case, if you mean that it isn't usually a problem, sure. However recently, I don't know quite how to put it, there has been a sort of assault on ECR, which you could, at a pinch, just call wikilawyering. See for example,
14652:
12566:
Will massive topic bans make the articles better? I doubt it. With the Middle East conflict, we have exceeded the limits of the possible with a cooperative open editing model, and we need to think of some other way to approach articles in this area.
12302:- see how some of those named in this case pretty much receive only logged warnings and/or minor things such as revert restrictions for substantial incivility, abuse of AE process, edit-warring, etc that would've gotten a newer user swiftly blocked.
10507:). When I read your first post here I remembered that contretemps. I never reported it as a misuse of admin tools, and I never hold grudges. But I do remember things, and took your generalization as coming from someone 'involved' in the topic area.
13229:
We recruit a committee of five to ten senior editors, who have never edited in the topic area, who have no identifiable bias, and who are equally unacceptable to both sides. Only members of this committee will be allowed to edit in the topic area.
11612:
I do urge ArbCom to particularly investigate the accusations of misrepresenting sources (an extremely serious one that takes time and effort to get to the bottom of) and of people taking inconsistent policy positions (a key component mentioned in
10615:
intractable, but not descriptively so, taking in both an Israel (semi-)official POV and the scholarship, to the end of achieving NPOV. To the contrary. We can draw on one of the richest WP:RS highbar resource bases existing, for the simple reason
9507:
so you're saying the answer I gave is incorrect? If so mark me as surprised but glad for your clarification. I will eagerly await to see if a rough consensus of other arbitrators agree with you and presuming they do adjust my actions accordingly.
10872:) - there was a bias to just an israeli narrative of Jewish traditions there. So 'pro-Pal' is risible. Indeed, if I have an intellectual challenge reflected in my work here, it is to read to the end of trying to grasp how the universalism of the
2454:
editor who is approaching 500 edits may develop some text in their sandbox for insertion into articles once EC is achieved — isn't that perfectly reasonable? An editor who abuses this allowance (say, by excessive pings) can be dealt with easily.
14284:
has come up with an intriguing solution below: label the articles in this and other contentious topic areas as biased and unbalanced by default, "explicitly mark them as such to readers with an appropriate banner," and so on. I agree insofar as
13936:
I'm not here to comment on the case but to draw attention to a blog by a probably banned editor concerning this case and attacking a number of the editors here, specifically Number 57, Nableezy, Nishidani, Huldra, Black Kite, Sean.hoyland and
13166:
edit war covered at AE is one example - there's an apparent consensus to state in wikivoice, in the first sentence, that Zionism is colonization. It's frankly very hard to see how such an unequivocal statement could comply with NPOV, given the
5727:
Enforced BRD - This is already something that can be imposed on talk pages, yet in my experience it has almost never been imposed on any talk page in ARBPIA (I can't think of a single example). We have one page that is under Consensus Required
13426:
meet experienced editors familiar with the vast academic literature. The small fraction of new editors who arrive with genuine knowledge of the topic have a much better time of it", I have met people with PhDs in the I/P-area, who knows far,
12717:, though that is not to say the same behavious doesn't occur across more than the two editors singled out in that diff. Though I have seen tendentious editing multiple times, I am very reticent to call it out, in part because such accusations
2350:
says what those restrictions are. I don't see any contradiction there, and it seems to me that changing "userspace" to "talkspace" in the former would remove article talk pages from the area of conflict and disable all the restrictions there.
2706:
11719:
which they're involved and can never contribute to another? How would this even work? We'd rapidly run out of people willing to respond to RFCs (non-sockpuppets, anyway. I guess it could serve as a honey-trap for them but it's not worth it.)
7141:. The distributions vary but younger accounts appear to dominate in the topic area in terms of revision counts, at least based on this small sample. It would be interesting to see what this distribution looks like for the entire topic area.
10366:
in my history of making active edits. . topic area where, as @ABHammad observes, Knowledge is out-of-step with a large number of the reliable sources that we rely on for other topics . . I find myself aligning with @The_Kip's suggestion of
6655:
I don't know what the 'topic area' is exactly, but thousands of article talk pages have one of the various topic area related templates informing people about the special rules. So, we can look at those and pretend it's the 'topic area' or
5234:
around that topic. For completeness's sake, I included everyone in this one. Going forward, there might be some norm/convention, but I figured that it was better to incorporate everyone rather than potentially leave someone relevant out. —
16789:
5490:, than almost any other topic area. Discussions about sources can't happen in 500-1000 words; the very notion is ridiculous. More to the point, any kind of topic-wide restriction would be a horrible, counterproductive overreach. The vast,
13853:
I see all motions being proposed as merely kicking the can down the road. The problems in this topic area are those like Levivich who have taken to making threats (as Barkeep points out) to other editors because they seem to feel they're
11871:. Are you *really* sure this is the example you want to bring up? You're making my point about "It's you: you're the problem" quite well for me. But sure, you never hold grudges... except for the one you've apparently held for 17 years.
8309:, as while you can argue you didn't support "massacre", I don't think you're arguing you opposed it? I've also manually reviewed all the others of yours, and they appear correct; if you disagree with any of the others, please let me know.
15439:, with a list of desired parties, evidence of disruptive behavior of each, evidence of prior dispute resolution attempts about each, and without a general unenforceable aspersion-casting "we need to remove everyone from the topic area".
15327:
That sounds an awful lot like "let everyone throw mud at the wall and see what sticks". The combination of that approach and ArbCom feeling pressured to be seen to be doing something has historically led to poor or ineffectual outcomes.
12835:". This is a repeating problem and is only leading to parties that are able to mobilise more effectively getting changes made. I'm not saying policy is being purposefully gamed here, but if it was, this is one way it might look. Tagging
11630:
urge people to present evidence to those things in the evidence phase, if it gets to that point, because ArbCom needs that - my past experience with cases like these is that both editors and ArbCom tend to focus on the "easy" aspects of
13600:
AFAIK: only pro-Israeli groups actively recruits wp-editors, they have done so for at least 15 years, they come to wp. with lots of opinions and zero knowledge of scholarly work. And are bitterly dissapointed when they cannot convince
12165:- they wholly disregard WP policies and prior warnings/sanctions, as most ARBPIA sanctions for experienced editors have effectively amounted to slaps on the wrist. I'd also like to specifically emphasize the point made by Swatjester of
8653:
The terms just means that the editor sympathizes with that side more than the other. Both positions are reasonable, and it doesn't mean they are anti-Palestinian/anti-Israeli, nor does it mean that there is a problem with those editors
3274:
While this would solve the confusion brought by the wording, it also further erodes the ways in which an editor can edit, despite there being no compelling evidence in this discussion of intractable disruption warranting this change. -
12635:. If there were any utility to a page which simply counts the number of times someone's signature appears on a page, I would ask him to rerun the data based on 18 comments in 4 discussions so that NoCal100 would appear in his list. --
7908:
Including both editors switching their stance to conform to their POV (for example, supporting using massacre as a descriptive term only when Israelis were targeted, or only when Palestinians were targeted) and editors misrepresenting
17991:
I think that merge discussions are outside of the bounds of the topic ban, I would like to register my profound disappointment that both 7&6 and TPH seem to be unable to stop touching the general area of the notability of topics.
15515:
13940:
It also says "Only a technique called "semi-protection" (prohibiting people not logged in from editing) can stop crazy people from coming onto user pages and threatening editors. Huldra's Knowledge user pages are not semi-protected."
12270:
to deal with a case where A and B want to report C, D, and E, except A and B have also been engaging in the reported behavior themselves, and F probably was too but wasn't brought to the case until later due to a variety of reasons.
10114:"Blake Flayton, a vocal commentator on Jewish and Israeli issues, responded to the post, calling the changes “egregious” and urging someone with expertise to edit the page to reflect what he considers to be a more accurate portrayal"
5513:
true in the absence of any showing that the community is unable to handle this. The only thing worse would be a topic-wide sanction; please don't do that, I fear it would trigger a "constitutional crisis" and waste more editor time.
11438:
to handle the topic area, and on ways to solve those impediments". Use Red-tailed Hawk's parties list, and make clear that, because it's a long list, being on the list is not a presumption of wrongdoing. Then do these three things:
9816:
I feel like you're saying we disagree (for the 2nd time here) but I don't think we do? If BilledMammal is presenting misleading evidence that is important to know and act on, especially if that evidence is intentionally misleading.
7836:
Im not opposed to some move here, but incident is absurd. Israel was accused of a war crime here, every casualty was an unarmed civilian, and they were purposely targeted. Calling this an incident is even more POV than calling it a
7475:
believe something shouldn't have any impact on content decisions in my view. There are rules, we should just follow the rules, and people who don't like the result are free to whine about it and monetize the attention they receive.
6346:, shows the contrary, an influx of new editors in recent times. Difficult to be certain without more data but my sense is that the pattern will hold up for other articles as well. It is of course possible that both things are true.
14780:
Motion 2b would be clearer if the two kinds of restrictions suggested there were sorted into either page restrictions or editor restrictions. Particularly, whether "all participants" is a page restriction as I believe is intended.
10330:
at each other in every discussion; there's a level of toxicity that just makes me want to ignore the area entirely. This BATTLEGROUND issue is only compounded by the fact that virtually all of the culprits are WP:UNBLOCKABLE . . -
6474:
Then the next two on the list are RM's that I proposed and the result accorded with what I proposed. I will waste no more time with this, if anyone would like to accuse me of POV pushing based on such evidence, feel free to do so.
9655:
the absence of האופה is exactly why the referral is here. There became so many other editors conduct to consider - not just in tag teaming but in the AE thread itself - that it became beyond what AE can handle well in its format.
16785:
2823:
Is there a reason the proposed motion uses "broadly interpreted" instead of the standard "broadly construed"? Is there a difference in meaning we are supposed to infer, or are they one and the same for purposes of this motion? —
13022:
when they apply different rationales depending on which side benefits (articles making Israel look bad must always be deleted and making Palestine look bad must always be kept, or vise versa, even if they have the same merits).
5706:
Appeals only to arbcom - I don't see any evidence that appeals are a significant source of disruption in this topic area. Where are the links to 5-10 recent disruptive appeals? So I don't see any reason to change anything about
9489:
thought as opinions evolved, so it's not like it was a puzzle what was happening to the uninvolved admins and since other commenters gave feedback on whether or not to refer I don't think it was a puzzle to anyone else either.
9099:, Iskandar323 actually proposed two titles with "massacre" in them. I'll leave it for readers to decide whether or not this is irrelevant to the claim that Iskandar323 only supports "massacre" when the victims are Palestinian.
6123:
on large sections of the editor community who specialize on here... Unless it is certain that all of the project is absolutely unsalvageable or ARBIPA is somehow all a failure, I ask arbitrators to avoid granting such a power.
11019:
produce evidence if asked by ARBCOM, who are the multiple editors dismissing BM’s evidence as mendacious, as opposed to unconvincing, unfalsifiable, ergo to be interpreted rather than taken for granted as proof, of whatever?
3652:. I think there's a strong interest in standardization, so I would rather have separate up-or-down votes on those two things, and then it would seem logical for you to support both of those motions. Curious for your thoughts.
16999:
11371:
people telling you here that there are conduct problems that have overwhelmed AE that you can be confident that it won't just be a fishing expedition, but it would just result in ongoing disruption if ArbCom punts for now. --
10900:, I believe that 13, collectively making 75,383 edits to the topic area since 2022, generally align with a pro-Palestinian position. I believe two, collectively making 5,832 edits, generally align with a pro-Israeli position.
9232:
As for a party list, anyone who has made, been the subject of, or commented at any ARBPIA AE report since October 2023. The problem is widespread, and I think that is probably the most efficient way to generate a party list.
8766:
For your first point, I disagree that it sheds factual light. There is no useful information from someone supporting moving "massacre" to "massacre"; indeed, it is indistinguishable from someone opposing moving "massacre" to
5652:
I've seen that, but rarely. Much more common are people saying that both groups are native to the region. Those people aren't pro-Palestinian POV-pushers, they're just pro-truth; they're normal editors following the sources.
8434:
My sympathies lie more with Israel than with Palestine, although I try to recognize and account for any bias that introduces in my thinking - while editors are allowed to have a POV, I think the first step in ensuring their
3376:
16975:
8852:
3831:
1964:
17936:@SN, that is fair, I suppose my thinking is that merges are far enough removed from deletion (even though some content may be left out of the final product) that they would not fall under the "broadly construed" umbrella.
16781:
16773:
13771:- I am unsure if this has actually happened (and if it has whether it's happened in the Israel-Palestine subject area), but it only takes a quick look through contentious topics on RSN to see that editors are engaging in
13756:
The whole point of RSN deliberations, and you engage in them often, is to distinguish between narrow and wide bias in newspapers. A narrow bias doesn't imperil the general reliability of a source: a wide bias can lead to
13251:
The committee should look not only at individual articles, but at the corpus in its entirety, thinking creatively about the best way to present information. I give examples and suggest such structural changes in my essay
12000:
POV pushers in contentious topic areas, at least allow them to contribute in roughly equal numbers). I've been here nearly 20 years and the dominant personalities in this topic sphere have barely changed in the last ten.
14244:
2. Word limits: On the surface it seems to address the problem that we face of repetitive discussions and "IDONTHEARTHAT" bad faith hounding that can drag out discussions. But it is a process answer to a behavior issue.
13978:
is a major driver of the increased (mis)conduct in the area given its grossly outsized invocation at AE over the past ten months, and while I do agree that PIA5 is all but necessary at this point, I would handle it as a
9116:
I calculated the 23% figure using the total of 431,132 that BM gave elsewhere. Using your total of 473,212 it would be 21% unless your way of counting also changes the top 20 counts. Also, the top contribution was 3.1%.
3108:
16536:
Yes this will slow editing down (though I hope admins will exercise common sense when it comes to honest mistakes) but to a certain extent that's what we want. Reducing the urgency might help to lower the temperature.
7676:, where BM has some 73 comments there. I dont think that subpage is accurate either in its definition or its counting, and Id caution that evidence by editors who are highly involved not simply be accepted as accurate.
6210:, now defined as looking for the “colonization of land outside Europe”), in spite of substantial opposition. The current situation both scares away potential great editors and destroys our credibility and neutrality.
3431:
2818:
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have confidence that credible complaints will result in action and vexatious ones will be rejected. But if admins would prefer to refer a complaint against a specific editor to ArbCom, I'd be happy to hear that case.
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15669:
I wouldn't support making all appeals to ArbCom by default, but if this takes some of the workload off of AE or gives admins cover to make unpopular but necessary decisions, I'm happy to take on some of that burden.
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16345:
Ideally, the bold formatting has no effect anyway and it's all about the arguments. Restricting the use of formatting does not reduce (but perhaps increase) the amount of words people use to explain their position.
14417:
This approach would be less disruptive to the usual editing process, as the added rules would only relate to the article banner, while the content itself would continue to be edited according to the existing rules.
14192:
in contentious topic areas. If editors cannot show respect for other editors they should not be allowed to edit there. Administrators need to act and I believe that Arbcom has a responsibility in this area as well.
13316:
Based on my vantage point of having only really participated in I/P topics by way of RSN and AE discussions, I am perplexed by various assertions made in this clarification request. Reading through discussions like
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pro-Israeli enough. And outing: apparently you will "help the state of Israel" if you make public my RN. Gosh, this cat had no idea that she was that important! Oh well, on the internet nobody knows you're a ......
12867:
Speaking of which, I'd also like to encourage ArbCom that, when it looks at editor behavior, to actually look at the behavior of every individual involved and not assume "both sides are at fault" without evidence.
8293:- euphemistic in the extreme, an "incident" in which an army kills 6 children and a cameraman, and all casualties are civilians? No source calls it an incident either. As far as sources calling it a massacre, well
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2215:
13186:, I don't know what is. Some editors argued that titles do not imply statements, effectively saying that POV names do not exist. Such arguments tend to be invoked selectively. The move received significant press (
10312:(many of whom have been with us for well over a decade) who are primarily on Knowledge to push their POV . . for most of the last two decades the two sides have been seriously mismatched in terms of numbers and
5852:(created one week ago) has 250 editors and 171 watchers. Those hundreds of editors are part of the Knowledge community (as am I, as are the editors I work with every day). They have not avoided this subject area.
5469:
Looking at the list of parties, those who have been sanctioned in this topic area have not been disruptive since their sanction, AFAIK. Most of the list have never been sanctioned. If there are concerns regarding
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Uninvolved administrators may impose word limits on all participants in a discussion, or on individual editors across all discussions, within the area of conflict. These word limits are designated as part of the
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This isn't much of an update, but I don't want to give the impression that this matter isn't being considered. I've been following the statements here and I am convinced a case is needed. At the latest, once the
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but only if it continues to be disruptive. If it is not disruptive but still a violation of TBan, then a warning should be enough, and a recommendation to do something else and just wait until the TBan expires.
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I'm gratified that Barkeep49 agrees with my idea about the scope, but I want to caution against narrowing the parties list too much. Barkeep49's suggestion definitely leaves out editors who need to be examined.
8409:. As for the RM statistics, Seggallion only participated in one; if you like, I can try to group sockpuppets under their masters as I did at the activity statistics, but better to discuss that on the talk page.
17055:, the Arbitration Committee did not consider turning an article into a redirect to be a violation of the topic ban. I did not think any of these actions would have violated the ban. But now I am not certain.
13472:(and no: that isn't because our editing is that bad: some of the very worst abuse I have suffered was after I removed that the Western Wall was "In Israel" (It isn't, according to the International community.)
9765:, namely BilledMammal, Nableezy, and Selfstudier (and maybe also Levivich?). I think some of these allegations are stronger than others but those allegations are 100% part of why this case was referred to you.
7997:
Regarding ScottishFinnishRadish's word limit proposal, I don't think that will have the desired result. Editors are often required to review a wide array of sources, such as when attempting to determining if a
7606:. The abuse of sockpuppets is a powerful advantage at Knowledge, and wooden enforcement of teh rulz about conduct, ignorant of content and context, a powerful disincentive to being honest and straightforward.
6968:, for the disposable account fan, for people to edit war and advocate to their hearts content and stick a disclaimer on the articles for readers. Things like that would be interesting and possibly informative.
8074:
7863:
happy to substantiate that further if this gets to an evidence phase, but my point here was that arbs should not treat your evidence as anything other than a partisan and dishonest portrayal of what happened.
7362:
If you can't sanction or block a person, you can't solve problems. It's like sending the dishonest people to prisons without gates, then blaming the honest people who haven't been sent to prison for the crime
7097:
Many opinions about the topic area talk of a set of editors ('experienced editors', 'the regulars', 'battleground editors', 'the culprits', 'entrenched editors' etc.) who have worked together to some effect.
3593:). If it would be useful to import some language from Remedy 6-8, that could be on the table. But there may not be much appetite for doing so, in which case we can just adopt the motion as drafted here. Best,
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There is also the potential that any restiction (e.g. topic ban or 0RR) imposed under contentious topics cannot apply in userspace or could an editor be restricted for an edit on a userpage or user talk page.
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Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
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construed would, by implication, be a ban from that process specifically. But the fact that it is deliberately broader—i.e. more comprehensive—suggests that a less strict definition should be applied. And as
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Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
14248:
3. Excluding involved participants. Again, a process answer to an editor behavior issues. Not all involved editors are creating problems, tag-teaming and so on. This "throws out the baby with the bathwater."
10832:, with whom I engaged in at considerable length around 2016. But I had no, and do not have, and don't care to have, any proof that this intuition might be correct and indicate a dual account. What I did was
8038:
I am also aware, and prominently state in the analysis, that it is only an approximation - while most examples listed will be bludgeoning, exceptions will exist, including possibly the discussion you mention.
2867:
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
2269:
falls outside of the CT regime. We can drag this to ARCA if we have to, but just agreeing that the filer made a vexatious argument is easier." (I won't name them, since they don't want to be here, methinks).
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9331:
I think there's already an enforced BRD sanction, but it only applies to the editor that first made the edit. This would be more effective in this topic, where the reverts are often between several editors.
8847:
I'm not sure why you think that I believe it is unrelated to disruption in the topic area. It is related, but it’s not in the scope of that table, which is focused on presenting information about individual
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in support of the initiating side, but it is worth noting that WP:TBAN is intended to "forbid editors from making edits related to a certain topic area where their contributions have been disruptive", while
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and other users whose behavior is under consideration here (perhaps the editors listed under "Other editors whose behavior was directly mentioned in the AE thread", though even that list may be too long).
9366:, we don't know what's going to pass yet, so we don't know that any tools are being added to our toolbox. I think a clear statement from Arbcom about the topic area would be handy if they're going to punt.
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If we just look at 2022 to present, obviously limited to only talking about logged blocked socks that made edits in PIA (with the caveat that we can't know the sock discover rate), we can see the following
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Instead, I think a comment limit - perhaps ten comments per discussion - will be more effective at preventing the back-and-forth and repetition of points that causes discussions to expand unproductively.
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This procedure applies to edits and pages in all namespaces. When considering whether edits fall within the scope of a contentious topic, administrators should be guided by the principles outlined in the
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at the Golan Heights article where well sourced and relevant information was removed without any valid reason whatsoever. Certain editors will use this to disrupt articles within the area of conflict. --
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words or 10% of comments, whichever is greater?), or limits per week (500 words per week?) In addition, I have questions if such a limit would apply to single RFC threads, or to the whole topic at once.
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I realize that the scope of a topic-ban can be viewed independently of any specific edits that might or might not violate it. Nonetheless, it might be relevant to ask whether there have been any actual
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has been given adequate time? I find most RMs don't have a pre-discussion done, so if a change is being proposed for the first time, it can take longer than 1,000 words to do sufficient source analysis.
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but the related disputes spill over. Ideally, editors should be able to work on articles about the culture and history of the region without big scary ArbCom notices, at least until there are problems.
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6098:). Seeing a list of highly motivated folks in this topic area is not a sign necessarily they are always hogging the attention, so much as they provide much of the energy to keep Knowledge up to doate.
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isn't those who ask others to respond to their PAG based arguments, it isn't even bludgeoning or incivility by "one side". The problem is that experienced editors here (as elsewhere on the internet)
9187:. Instead of proposing changes that will make it harder to write articles and not solve any problems, our dear arbs should consult the regulars in the field who know what changes will be beneficial.
6910:" applies to them. We know this because we have lots of data about how new highly motivated biased editors cross (or tunnel through) the EC barrier and what they do when they get into the topic area.
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and editors who do not and therefore cannot be sanctioned effectively. Maybe a currently topic banned user in this discussion could talk openly about this reality. Their input could be very valuable.
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The arbitration amendment template limits how many individual I can initially add, so I will shortly be adding the rest of the admin and non-admin participants to the list above in their own section.
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some months ago for a different arb case. Some of the more active users noted on that chart are now TBANned, but it still serves as a solid chunk of data for the mass-scale POV-warring in the area.
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to push 'massacre' (which is a reasonable preference anyway), what was going on won't be evident to the birds-eye perspective. The name-change was pushed by an old throwaway account by a NoCal sock
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warning. Trying to wikilawyer your way through your TBan is pure FAFO behaviour, and they shouldn't be upset if the admins start cracking down. The answer to your questions IMHO is pretty obvious:
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warn or sanction editors who repeatedly promote unreasonable or inconsistent interpretations of content policies, but of course that's difficult since such policy matters aren't black and white. —
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As to the requested 'pro-Pal POV', that is inane language. I could give a long essay on the roots of my general outlook, from family tales of Irish dispossession (the genocidal consequences of (a)
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And all that, the original request for enforcement is practically forgotten. Like, it's been two weeks. Seems like all that's left to do is dismiss in light of האופה not editing since the report.
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As for Guerillero' wish for better cat-herding rules; I was thinking of something like: scratch another cat's face: 1 month's automatic topic-ban. Of course "scratch another cat's face" has to be
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area and how it affects AE (but not getting ArbCom into reviewing source material!), followed by a second case focusing on editor conduct, might well be the most practical way to accomplish it. --
3305:'s idea; I'm open to them changing the motion text if I missed something. It's a simple and clear solution, and simplifying confusing conditions that have actually caused confusion is good to me.
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proposing an article for deletion or contesting a proposed deletion: Clearly within scope for me. A ban from deletion wouldn't be very effective if someone could sidestep it by prodding articles.
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10789:, of BilledMammal classifying you as a supporter of the term 'massacre' when you did no such thing, confirms my wariness about drawing any conclusions from broad statistical charts like that. In
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and the comment by an admin there, "I wouldn't immediately understand "userspace" to apply to another user's talk page in this case – seems more like wikilawyering than anything else to say that
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https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration_Committee/Noticeboard&curid=21090546&diff=1237149351&oldid=1236465052#Why_does_ARPBIA_allow_userspace_as_an_exception
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These remedies would be easier to resolve than the (possible) allegations of tag-teaming and or gamification of Knowledge which will continue to be contested and or repeatedly brought here ~ 🦝
10173:, I'd suggest that definition of "recent" is a long way from the community understanding and if implemented would give rise to increased edit warring both at the 1RR level and at the 3RR level.
9155:. This gives more discretion to admins without good reason. A better idea would be to encourage AE to forward individual appeals to ArbCom if they think ArbCom is better equiped to handle them.
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prodded a few articles without incident, and a prior inquiry as to whether this violated my topic ban had gone unanswered. I personally do not think de-prodding should be part of my topic ban.
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12350:, et al. This complete lack of introspection/acknowledgement that "hey, maybe I'm part of the problem too" is exactly why many in the area, if not all its experienced users, deserve sanctions.
7050:
The bottom plot shows the same results scaled by article count. This result might suggest that the topic area is more attractive to editors than Knowledge in general. Didn't really expect that.
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I also want to make something very clear, just so my position on the area doesn't get grouped in by one side with the other side of editors here and at large (which may already be happening):
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I think categorizing and various ontologies is also problematic and hard to determine, as is expected. See the issue with whether Israel is just accused of being an apartheid state, or also a
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After further reading of comments here from multiple users on either side of the POV-war they either deny exists or insist it's mainly/only the other side that's toxic, I'd like to reiterate:
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All participants in formal discussions (RfCs, RMs, etc) within the area of conflict are urged to keep their comments concise, and are limited to 1,000 words per discussion. This motion will
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people with specific viewpoints. As this is done off-site, it is hard to know the scale of the impact, but that should not prevent the implementation of measures to guard against this risk.
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substantively on talk pages. BRD cannot work when editors aren't discussing things in good faith. This is too much of a blunt instrument, and it does not get at the core issue brought here.
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Many thanks for clarifying my inept proposal. For me, though, ECR should function like a tban, "any edits that relate to the Arab-Israeli conflict (broadly construed) anywhere on Knowledge"
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Some previous and later commenters seem to think that my idea of "nuking the topic area" means only mass-TBANning the problematic people from the aforementioned side with more editors (see
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This is why in my playbook "broadly construed" means "imagine any possible scenario in which an admin may potentially block you, even if they are not totally right, and stay away from it".
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I agree that action from ArbCom is necessary, and having reviewed everything over the past couple of days, looks like it may need to be a full case based on the complexity of the issue. -
10816:
accrued area familiarity with its vivacious theatre of new editors who sound like oldtimers, and the RS literature one acquires, there is a dimension of experience, of what Polanyi called
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Alone, not enough to warrant action - but it is another piece of evidence that adds to evidence like only supporting the use of "massacre" when the victims are from the side they support.
17555:
enough ambiguity here that I didn't call for sanctions at ANI nor did I go to AE. At the time I felt striking the offending comments and a "don't do that again" were sufficient. However,
12298:
the problem is those new-ish users are fairly easily dealt with via AE, if they haven't already violated ECR. On the contrary, AE has shown itself to be reluctant to heavily sanction any
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discussion; there's a level of toxicity that just makes me want to ignore the area entirely. This BATTLEGROUND issue is only compounded by the fact that virtually all of the culprits are
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It's quite difficult to reconcile calls to topic ban long term experienced users with things we know about the topic area. We know quite a lot. For example, we know the following things.
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I just wanted to note that I am aware of and am watching this discussion, but I would like to look more into the reasoning/history behind the current wording before commenting further. -
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the article shows that anti-Palestinian bias persisted disproportionately in the NYT during both periods and, in fact, worsened from the First Intifada to the Second.' (Holly M Jackson,
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The Israel-Palestine issue has a strong claim to be the most closely studied conflict on earth. 'Voluminous' does not even begin to capture the sheer quantity of the material about it'.(
8035:
This does mean I missed at least one discussion that I am aware of where I was too enthusiastic, but it also means I missed discussions where you were too enthusiastic - it balances out.
2842:
2535:, as userspace is traditionally given broad latitude too, it seems that WP:ECR and WP:UOWN should have their own jurisdiction, and on the balance WP:ECR should not be excessively broad.
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2394:
The entire set of articles whose topic relates to the Arab-Israeli conflict, broadly interpreted; edits relating to the Arab-Israeli conflict, to pages and discussions in all namespaces
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a DELETION discussion, and so far as I recall I had not even ventured into any other MERGER discussion in 2+ years. This was once; and only came up because I had edited this article.
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5880:, but with a carve out for current events. In recent days at Talk:Zionism, we've had editors try to cite the Bible, Knowledge, and dictionaries, as RS. This is a too-common occurrence.
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13858:. By resolving this without any sanctions against the editors making this topic area contentious, that is only going to give those editors more reason to continue their disruption and
9431:
Re:L25: I didn't support moving this here because I was looking for an ArbCom only remedy as I felt we had whatever options we wanted on the table per the Contentious topic procedures
9196:
7672:, but a, that isnt a formal discussion, and b. that is a back and forth with a handful of users. That isnt bludgeoning by any reasonable definition. They also somehow neglected to add
7184:
If there is a case, I think one of the things it could try to address is the following (often cyclical) property of the system, which appears to be quite common as far as I can tell.
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and at worst maliciously misrepresenting. The people who insist that it's "correct vs incorrect" as opposed to "pro-Israel vs pro-Palestine" should be given additional scrutiny here.
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Bludgeoning does not mean making a lot of edits. Replying to everyone who makes a contrary comment is bludgeoning, but repeatedly bringing new reliable sources is called good editing.
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rule. There are RFCs where arguments on either side are heavily favored by numbers before an admin/uninvolved closer throws away votes that have reasoning that is logically rebutted.
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work, it only really functions when there's a solid status quo and no need to update it quickly, which isn't the case during an active fast-moving real-world conflict like this one.
8233:
I think it demonstrates that the issue of sockpuppets is less significant than we believe. In 2024, only one sockmaster is in the top 100 editors by edit count within the topic area.
5532:. Those of you who have done so may want to either strike your comments or add some diffs to support your allegations, before arbcom gets around to asking who the parties should be.
15554:
9618:
the Arbitation Committee will decide who the parties are. So it might be RTH's list, it might be a smaller group of that, or it could be part of that and others not included there.
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8194:
What sort of information would be helpful in determining a scope? In addition, will parties be decided at this stage, or will parties be able to be added during the evidence phase?
12627:
Just for the record... after further research I have been able to determine that it was the decision to set the cutoff at 20 comments rather than at 18 which kept Kentucky Rain24 (
8785:
However, you ignore all of this, to focus on one of two that I haven't yet been able to address - and you use that failure to accuse me of manipulating the data to prevent it from
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I agree with Ravpapa's points about low article quality, but these issues plague most current events articles (another area that could use cleanup, but it's not analogous to PIA).
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5445:; emphasis mine) is that I had to submit it here rather than as a case request. If this is to change going forward, the instructions should probably be tweaked to clarify this. —
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was disrupted by canvassing by pro-Israel editors who considered me to be a problem because I was doing things like removing articles on settlements from "in Israel" categories.
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data we desperately need to as a work basis to get out of the suggestive/insinuating/subjective gossip mode often prevailing on wiki when it deliberates on core issues like this.
6972:
like RFCs etc. But the topic area is so large and complex with so many individual actors, and so many events, that it is difficult to make reliable general statements about it.
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5528:
Just a heads up: if a case is opened, I will ask arbcom to name as parties and review the conduct of all the editors, admins and non-admins alike, who, on this page, are casting
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3319:
I'm worried this motion fails to resolve what happens to Remedies 6-8, which rely on the distinction between primary articles and related content. See below for one alternative.
2573:
I think Remedy 9 repeal is possibly long overdue, it was written in 2015, and it only reminds the obvious that admins can use indefinite blocks, which is true even outside CTOP.
2303:
17174:, for a year, but which apparently are self renewing and perpetual). I've followed all of them. Asking for them to be removed is not something in my contemplation at this time.
11434:
I'm going to propose the case scope right here: "Ongoing disruption in the Israel-Palestine topic area, with a particular emphasis on factors that interfere with the ability of
10302:
makes it exhausting and frustrating for non-battleground editors to participate. In any event, I see the "usual suspects" attempting to downplay or deny that there's any dispute
6456:
8: Re BM's "evidence", the same case Nableezy refers to, BM characterizes my position as not expressing a stance on the use of the term massacre when I !voted against it! -: -->
5591:. Only HaOfa and I are relevant to this AE, and with HaOfa not editing since the filing, I don't think it's necessary or a good use of Arbcom's time to look at HaOfa's conduct.
5563:
sock puppets, and I rather strongly disagree that it's trivial and not worth concerning ourselves with, though of course I value my own time more than others value my time. :-P
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good-faith editors who are entering the topic more than already occurs. That being said, making it available as a discretionary sanction that could be applied by an admin would
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We've got a problem, apparently, with a bottomless well of newish accounts that make life difficult for good-faith editors, which is something that AE should be able to handle.
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Imposing a limit on contributions that consists of a word limit or edit limit will cause delight to the tag teams, who will take full advantage of their combined greater limit.
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A consensus of administrators at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard may refer an arbitration enforcement request to the Arbitration Committee for final decision through a
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17018:) is topic banned from deletion discussions, broadly construed. This ban may be appealed twelve months after the enactment of this remedy, and every twelve months thereafter."
16994:) is topic banned from deletion discussions, broadly construed. This ban may be appealed twelve months after the enactment of this remedy, and every twelve months thereafter."
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Can I suggest that this remedy be applied similar to 2b: i.e. imposed by an uninvolved admin on a particular article for a particular time period (eg. imposed on all edits to
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who take issue with the characterization. But it's difficult to enforce policies against a majority, and four editors have been brought to AE for attempts to do, with another
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Administrators don't give a second thought to blocking or tbanning newbies, while they often shrink away from sanctioning entrenched editors who do much worse much more often.
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If the closing admin determines that the consensus is an ARCA referral or a case request, it is the closing admin's responsibility to post the request at the appropriate venue
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I'll also repeat (please answer): You seem to be proposing that "edits relating to the Arab-Israeli conflict, to pages and discussions in all namespaces with the exception of
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What we need are in-depth looks at individual editor conduct in order to catch sockpuppets / meatpuppets, identify canvassing, and remove civil POV-pushers. These things are
11322:, and some other editors (sometimes more crudely) finding such source material to be contrary to popular political opinion. In my experience, getting caught in the middle of
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stricter rules, for CU (and OS) I think we're already operating close to, if not at, the floor. So if there are articulable reasons that justify CU it can be done - as I did
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problematic pro-Israeli experienced editors are any less of a contributor to the toxicity, policy violations, et al in this area, or that they deserve any lesser sanctions?
11103:(sock) , to mention a few of the names I mostly recognize as coming under that kind of general category.But then, this kind of analysis is way out of my field of competence.
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I object to being listed here. But now that I'm here, I'll say that I don't see any suggestions so far that would make an improvement to the I/P area. Here are some points:
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page is on its own illuminating. Contributing to discussions about moving articles intersects with the policy on titling articles which includes all sort of guidance about
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6164:, what would be defined as recent? editwars may take the form of months long warring, in which case which edit is a revert, and which is disputed becomes contested as well
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All participants in formal discussions (RfCs, RMs, etc) within the area of conflict are urged to keep their comments concise, and are limited to 500 words per discussion.
15569:, an uninvolved administrator may require that appeals be heard only by the Arbitration Committee. In such cases, the committee will hear appeals at ARCA according to the
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is any comment needed? They're giving new tools in response to the problems brought forward. Presumably the idea is that AE and individual admins start using those tools?
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and therefore the number of attendees do swing discussion outcomes – while this isn't an issue as a one-off, when it is many discussions over many years, it is a problem.
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observes, Knowledge is out-of-step with a large number of the reliable sources that we rely on for other topics across Knowledge. In my view, this amounts to an abuse of
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and therefore the number of attendees do swing discussion outcomes – while this isn't an issue as a one-off, when it is many discussions over many years, it is a problem.
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I think one issue with this is that the "primary articles" and "related content" distinction has proven to be less useful with time. When the case was first decided, the
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At any rate, I wouldn't punish 7&6 or TPH for having been in merge discussions up to this point, since I do think it was arguable as to whether merges are in scope.
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17311:. I have performed a couple merges since then, but these have been good-faith attempts to make sure at least some of the content makes it into the target article (e.g.,
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discussions; I recognize that there are those who allege that MERGE discussions are now included. While I disagree, I will simply implement that counsel in the future.
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What makes this topic particularly tricky to deal with, however, is not that editors in this space are typically new to the site (although as I know from editing in the
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absurd levels of incivility, condescension, POV-pushing, bludgeoning, edit-warring, hypocrisy, and virtually every other type of WP:BATTLEGROUND editing humanly possible
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12180:, as I don't think starting from scratch could make things any worse than they currently are - that said, I understand that's a rather draconian/heavy-handed solution.
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9743:. Selfstudier and I draw different conclusions about that statement we agree on and the Arbs can decide which conclusion they agree with as it's ultimately up to them.
6643:
It might be better to assign low credence, by default, to the accuracy of assessments of the state of the 'topic area', a complex system with thousands of moving parts.
6276:. Many of the editors here, including myself and several of the uninvolved administrators, were participants and the case revolved around behavior (and content) at the
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13570:" Keeping entrenched editors to protect us from socks and newbies is like keeping cats to protect the mice from kittens" I have no idea what this is supposed to mean.
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The committee will be charged with reviewing the entire corpus of Middle East articles, and making any editorial and structural changes that they see fit, including:
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Are there more pro-Palestinian problematic experienced editors in the area than pro-Israeli ones? Yeah, I kinda feel like that's an objective fact at this point - as
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argues, a border interpretation of deletion is anything that removes a page from the reader's eye, as merging, redirecting and incubating do (although it's only the
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Contrary to what other statements here are arguing, I believe there are legitimate issues about editors who are only here to edit PIA. This is a strong indicator of
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know they can be quick to take complaints to friends who are administrators or boards like AE without threat to themselves no matter what they did to fan the flames
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that it could get worse, and anyways, I disagree that the hypothetical "it could get really bad" is worse than the current reality of "it's a toxic disaster zone."
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whom I won't name. Hell, from the linked motion, part of the reasons one side is smaller in the first place is because many of the problematic users from that side
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Don’t know what’s happening, but keep me out. If the argument is that I’m bias, true, but I try as hard as I can to be neutral, and I can provide examples of this.
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literature. The small fraction of new editors who arrive with genuine knowledge of the topic have a much better time of it. All of this is exactly as it should be.
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The Arab-Israeli conflict's Arbitration history well predates the first PIA case; PIA1 is simply the first time ArbCom turned its gaze on the situation as a whole
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it seems the desired state of the articles in the topic area from one (or each) 'side' of this conflict will likely not be content until 'perfection' is achieved.
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helps one to assess things, beyond the issue of RS etc. If my informal hunch had been true, what followed would never show up in a statistical analysis like BM's.
8793:
didn't clarify that - but not prioritizing your request is not the same as manipulating the data, and there is no justification for these assumptions of bad faith.
7254:
The average 'SPA-ness' is low (percentage of edits in PIA articles, talk, templates, categories, portal and draft namespaces). They do not generally resemble SPAs.
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There is a small mismatch between the area of scope and ECR and perhaps arbcom wants to fix that. Perhaps it doesn't. I'm not sure why I am involved in this case.
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Civility simply is not taken seriously anymore anywhere in the project, is lackadaisically and usually not enforced at all, and is a sad memory in the I/P pages.
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from a rough count, I see around 22 !votes endorsing the closure and 15 saying to overturn. I also don't see any kind of slam-dunk argument in the overturn !votes
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I very rarely edit in this topic area and only looked into this table due to past experience with Billed Mammal and Kentucky Rain24 (NoCal100) working in concert
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incredibly experienced, incredibly knowledgeable of processes, , , enable(s) Wikilawyering on a scale that I've frankly not encountered anywhere else on Knowledge
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means that a limit on "discussions" will just produce a lot of arguments over whether something was part of the same discussion or part of a different discussion.
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there is a core group of 10-15 editors in this topic area (many of whom have been with us for well over a decade) who are primarily on Knowledge to push their POV
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The damage caused by these socks can be significant. The latest example of obvious-sock-but-we-can't-say-it-until-we-have-a-certain-amount-of-minimum-evidence is
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is intended to "improve the editing atmosphere of an article or topic area", which applies here as WP:GS specifically includes "Extended confirmed restriction".
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If your request will affect or involve other users (including any users you have named as parties), you must notify these editors of your submission; you can use
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4. "Enforced BRD" Another process answer to an editor behavior issue, and I don't believe that it would have any positive impact on the subject area whatosever.
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Once an active editor in this topic area, I have for the last few years assiduously eschewed any involvement. But I would like, nonetheless to add this comment:
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does what I wrote above accurately summarize your thinking? I want to make sure to know whether to adjust my actions for any future potential referrals. Thanks,
8174:
I've included all editors with more than 500 edits since 2022 who have made 50%+ of their edits in the ARBPIA topic area. Sub-5000-edit accounts are marked with
1106:
Please do not submit your request until it is ready for consideration; this is not a space for drafts, and incremental additions to a submission are disruptive.
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Seeing many comments that should be saved for the Arb case over the last few days. Is there some threshold that needs to be passed before this case is opened?
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The more I read in this topic area, the more disheartened I become by the state of our collective actions as editors, and the more I find myself aligning with @
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about fixing the topic area in general. Among the multiple impasses in the discussion here on this request page is that AE admins are telling ArbCom that AE is
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I would rather not name this but recently rsn into another editor with the same issue, but others convinced him he was wrong, although apparently he was right.
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Only Arbitrators and Clerks may remove requests from this page. Do not remove a request or any statements or comments unless you are in either of these groups.
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Yes, because merging will lead to at least some deletion of content - the nominated article may get deleted, some content during merger may be lost, and so on.
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Your answer was "correct" because it gave one path to refer an AE case to ArbCom/ARCA. My comment above was to highlight a second path to get the same result.
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14473:, which allows only uninvolved editors to vote. I believe this motion would greatly benefit sockpuppets and meatpuppets at the expense of experienced editors.
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of a discussion); I am willing to be persuaded in either direction. PROD would definitely fall under the "broadly construed" of deletion discussions, though.
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on us and find a spurious reason to ban them. No, my idea would be to concentrate on the three areas which appear to causing the most issues at the moment.
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thanks for that clarification. I want to understand this second parth. Am I correct that you're saying that if the 4 uninvolved administrators had all bolded
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which I suspect is intended to mean things defined above as 'related content' (not what is actually says which is pages not covered at all in the definition).
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I felt that thirteen's posts were a clear-cut violation of a "broadly construed" TBan from deletion discussions, since that discussion was on whether or not
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Designations by administrators may be appealed in the same way as sanctions. Designation is not a suggestion that an editor's contributions are problematic.
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stated, it's not like we're protecting much of value here - this process has resulted in articles of fairly poor quality, a result of incessent pointscoring
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or the aforementioned Swatjester have stated, just look at the number of experienced editors showing up to insist they're not the problem, everyone else is/"
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There is a lot of POVPUSHING at RSN, but from what I've seen the issue is more common - and more effective - in the opposite direction from what you've seen.
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Cases are brought to ArbCom or ANI after obvious escalations, however what we need is stronger focus on preventive measures over enforcement after the fact.
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edit. This proposal preserves the heart of the consensual editing model (though not strictly open), but eliminates the possibility for contentious editing.
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BilledMammal's list does produce some of the most active editors, and while there's plausibly a strong correlation, it doesn't prove bludgeoning on its own.
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that was a well advertised and well attended RFC a baker's dozen years ago. What level of consensus it was really has no bearing on anything at this point.
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6302:. Editors named here continue to respond there. Although procedurally a separate AE case, it was filed contemporaneously with and is part and parcel of the
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subject matter (e.g. nableezy's statement above). This is unacceptable. I strongly endorse implementing the actions outlined by SFR as immediate remedies.
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Can someone explain to me what this is all about? Specifically, how is this AE related to the previously closed one? And what am I being asked to do here?
10488:. Surely you shouldn't take exception to a somewhat playful implication you were a 'cat'. Your presence is very rare in the IP area and your remarks about
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6672:
How many are hostile, toxic, combative, tendentiousness, condescending, bludgeoning, hypocritical, bullying, glaringly dishonest etc. and how many are not?
6245:, just two days after blaming another editor for being a sock solely based on some shared topics of interest with a blocked editor who had 72,000(!) edits
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Please see my comment above, and my exchange with Levivich for an explanation as to why you are listed under the category of "Involved AE participants". —
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be is a feature, not a bug, because obviously you shouldn't prejudge the case. Let the community give you evidence. And this is one case where you should
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Motion 3 is interesting, but it has to be clear if it is or is not a sanction, and if it should be applied to all regulars, or just over-engaged regulars.
8672:(Nishidani, I do have more to say in regards to your comments - I'm not ignoring the questions/statements you made - but I don't have time at the moment)
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Considering that policy doesn't provide any support for considering a source unreliable on grounds of bias, I find this example particularly problematic.
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New York Times distorts the Palestinian struggle: A case study of anti-Palestinian bias in US news coverage of the First and Second Palestinian Intifadas
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8789:. I admit, I don't consider it a priority (although I have already spent some time on it), as I don't see what useful information it would provide, and
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11708:, so this is the one suggestion here that is at least aimed at what I'd consider the real problem... but it would probably be better to treat it as a
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no more than two comments per discussion per day, except replies (of reasonable length) to questions or very brief clarifications of their own comments
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welcomed in the topic area and that I won't have to spend time fighting bludgeoning from another side with no hopes of having my points ever refuted.
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Sub-5000-edit accounts which are basically SPAs on the PIA area, some of which will inevitably be socks but even if they're not are equally disruptive
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I generally avoid editing in this topic area, and my involvement in it has been fairly minimal. But the one instance when I did get involved with it (
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Sub-5000-edit accounts which are basically SPAs on the PIA area, some of which will inevitably be socks but even if they're not are equally disruptive
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and do something about it then they are the last people who should feel qualified to perform some kind of grand "source analysis" for the topic area.
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500 word limit in any discussion under 5000 words, and a 1000 word or 10% of the discussion limit, whichever is lower, on discussions over 5000 words
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second question, I'd like to see parties decided on case creation, with parties added in the evidence phase only with compelling reason to do so. -
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points out recently so there might be other ideas to glean from reading those (and reading what the arbcom at the time wrote about them privately).
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policy in PIA. It's largely unenforceable for a variety of practical, wiki-cultural and technical reasons. We all know this. There have always been
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The precedent of massive topic bans without careful assessment of the reasoning why leads to dangerous precedents for other future content disputes.
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is part of Israel. That's called pro-Israeli POV-pushing. The pro-Palestinian version of that would be somebody trying to get Knowledge to say that
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Requests for clarification are used to ask for further guidance or clarification about an existing completed Arbitration Committee case or decision.
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15122:(in a humourous context that I chuckled at), and referrals to ArbCom from AE have not been common, I wanted to make sure there was clarification.
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In response to the question about how to avoid making the topic-area case into a mudslinging contest, limit the named parties only to AE admins. --
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and many with scant knowledge of the subject. Quite a lot of the disputes arise because of them, not because of the people likely to comment at AE.
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How many of these talk page interactions are consistent with the sweeping negative assessments of the state of the topic area and how many are not?
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This figure does not count the (incomplete) Archive 339, nor does it count any unarchived threads at Enforcement, including the one referred here
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Sean Hoyland’s remarks on your page. That is an excellent tabulation. I don't think it demonstrates anything of the sort, that 'pro-Pal' editors
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If arbcom wish to undo the exclusion of userspace from the ARBPIA topic area, that's their decision, but your proposal does much more than that.
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indefinitely, irrespective of any 'clarification' or not. I do not need the hassle. The point has been made, understood and put into practice.
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Arbcom may be more open to conclusively dealing with. As a result of AE's apparent higher threshold needed for experienced editors, things like
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based on the best sources available, regardless of which other sources technically pass RS. No editor other than me openly avoids citing either
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It isn't possible to topic ban or block a person and prevent them from editing in the topic area. Why? Because it isn't possible to enforce the
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doesn't appear that different to the WP:READER, who, whatever we dress the discussion up as, will not be able to see material they once could.
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I like ScottishFinnishRaddish's suggestion that everyone who participated in an ARBPIA AE discussion since last October be considered involved.
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you have granted yourself the right to classify other editors as "pro-Israel" and "pro-Palestinian". Please tell us how you classify yourself.
8657:
All it does is help us understand the dynamics of the topic area, and is particularly helpful in understanding the background to comments like
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There are some editors who do subscribe to that position - but there are also editors who subscribe to the position that the opposite is true,
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64:
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13917:
then they need to run that by the community and get some sort of procedural update in place so we know exactly how to assess these things. —
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13196:
13168:
11011:
Translation: Billed Mammal presented a very abstract set of charts, and multiple editors stated that BM was lying about the evidence in them.
9739:
for a lot of other people to reply which is why that thread sprawled and PeleYoetz" didn't. But I stand by my agreeing with Selfstudier that
8618:
while I feel it's obvious where Vice regent's sympathies lie, I've been very impressed by their ability to put them aside to comply with NPOV.
7025:
I've tried to have a look at this using 3 datasets, two approximations of the 'topic area' and a set of randomly selected Knowledge articles.
5615:
I think the "first admin comment" link above disproves this. Look at who replied and who didn't before that first comment was made. It wasn't
5347:
topic-wide in a blanket fashion; I feel like this sort of thing would serve as a trap to good-faith newcomers who are verbose, and we needn't
3187:
17567:, specifically referencing this same "broadly construed" language, so I'm now not sure that "don't do that again" hasn't already been said. ―
16869:
16803:
16742:
13967:(April 2024 - present), of 75 threads (discounting the two duplicates) 38 of them are PIA-related. And of 94 threads from Oct. 2023 (and the
11032:
10768:
the rumour-mill here is suggesting. Perhaps I'll have other observations later (here because I won't be participating in any Arbcome process)
9208:
If Arbcom does wish to avoid a full case or "punt", as Barkeep puts it, there are a couple actions they can take to help out in the interim.
6112:
topic area, and admins have been kind enough to help shepherd, provide useful guidance, and prevent my early exit (voluntary or involuntary).
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5122:
The inability of the tools available at AE to adequately handle disruption that involves a large number of parties over long periods of time.
1214:
409:
17246:
17059:
14790:
14096:
12753:
The consensus process has broken down because too many experienced editors seem to have no interest in finding any consensus. I agree with @
11699:
Motion 1, Appeals only to ArbCom doesn't really address any of the core problems; it isn't like revolving-door appeals are the problem here.
9201:
There is a broad array of disruptive editing, POV pushing, long term edit wars, bludgeoning, incivility, and it all basically comes down to
8659:
I say that because there is a massive imbalance in the people singled out, according to the usual perceptions of the IP area's POV-stand-off
17790:. Participating in any AfD would be an unambiguous violation of their topic bans, contrary to your hypothetical reasoning that would allow
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15040:
Thank you to the AE admins for submitting this referral. As a procedural note I would suggest that we limit the parties to this request to
14535:
13992:
13253:
13057:. That's not to say it's not a huge problem, but the current focus is established users, and there are factors that make this more urgent:
10924:
and diaspora Jewish scholars (many also Zionist). 'Pro-Palestinian' implies 'anti-Israel' and that is why the term is totally unacceptable.
9433:
A rough consensus of administrators at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard ("AE") may impose any restriction from the standard set and
8971:
8168:
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for an assessment of the extent of the problem. For technical reasons, it is currently limited to discussions on article talk pages and at
7669:
2521:
The answer would depend on whether arbitrators intended WP:ECR A(1) to overrule or uphold WP:PIA 4(B), if there is an answer, we are done.
1171:
15562:
15435:. If we aren't able to evaluate a single party's conduct, we aren't able to hear a case either. And if we are, a case can be requested at
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reasonable person to tell if an editor has contributed a given percentage of a discussion, especially if they're using a mobile device. -
1117:
16917:
13750:
I haven't wanted to comment here because I feel that others are saying what I would have to say. But I feel it needs to be stressed that
13083:
Any administrator with the resolve to take action (or even mention the possibility) is hounded and abused by the user's tag-team buddies.
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4820:
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Tl;dr: we need to do something, and we should welcome new ideas but a sprawling ARBPIA5 is unlikely to resolve anything satisfactorily.
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to the war? Removing articles created from Oct 7, 2023 onwards might be a good approximation. Don't spend time on it unless it is easy.
6996:
How true are statements about editors being scared away from the topic area by a toxic environment created by entrenched editors etc.?
5308:
discussions" provision will be enough, as it isn't going to remedy the long-term edit warring/tag teaming, nor the civility issues that
3161:: I would assume the two terms should be viewed identically. Further thoughts forthcoming — currently discussing among ourselves. Best,
2181:
14241:
1. Appeals only to Arbcom: I see some merit to this. It can prevent bludgeoning of administrators who venture into the subject area.
14083:
Speaking of the AE request about האופה, there's also the AE request about PeleYoetz which was closed as moot because of this referral (
12563:
crises that change the course of history, they are often so full or quotes and counterquotes that they are practically unintelligible.
12023:
7189:
6942:"How many sock accounts are currently active in the topic area, or outside the area (to gain EC or access to wiki-mail for canvassing)"
6895:
in PIA and there is apparently very little that can be done about it. They are part of the community of editors in PIA, like it or not.
6605:
Answers like "It's against the rules", "It's dishonest", "It's hypocritical", "They will be discovered and blocked" are wrong answers.
6243:
6237:
4572:
4181:
17304:
examples were on August 13, and the formal notification was not until the 26th, after which I have not done anything like that again.
16660:
Tying it to the normal 3RR definition of 24 hours does seem like a good idea, but I also like the idea of "most recent edit" as well.
14501:
to more liberally employ CheckUser in this topic to deal with potential ban evasion. If so you can start by checking Sean and myself.
13823:, and via strength in numbers can continue to make systemic bias worse, silence opposition/alternative points of view, and ultimately
12762:
12264:
cross multiple lines to receive anything more than a logged warning that is almost always disregarded by the receiver in the long run.
10116:. When we are faced with this sort of off-wiki canvassing is it any surprise that there's some level of disruption to the topic area?
17507:
17485:
17441:
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13405:
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issues; all of these are difficult to resolve in a single sweeping motion. But several of these are likely to actually make problems
7029:
PIA topic area - template presence (3734 articles). Articles with one of the ARBPIA/contentious topics templates on their talk pages.
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5587:
open a case, who will the parties be, and how will Arbcom decide? It requires someone presenting some evidence... in other words, an
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4421:
4229:
69:
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I have not prodded any articles since the topic ban, since I assumed doing so would constitute a violation of the topic ban. I have
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implicitly assuming editors are contributing to those move discussions based on something like whims rather than on sources and PAGs
13061:
The opinions of less established accounts are taken less seriously in discussions relative to more experienced users (this probably
12418:
there's a near-constant attitude of "my side is doing nothing wrong, if we just sanctioned the POV-pushers everything would be fine
7859:
7074:. I guess many editors might be flowing upstream from the new post-Oct 7 extensions to the topic area to update pre-Oct 7 articles.
17129:
discussions entered a long time ago (2 years+), and have been in full avoidance and compliance. I admit that I edited a request to
16568:
are important to me, and as "reverting" includes the restoration of content where verifiability is disputed, I can't support this.
14984:
14679:
Editors may designate themselves involved in the entire topic area or a subset of it, or may be designated by an uninvolved admin (
14038:
12260:, bludgeoning, weaponization of process, less "blatant" incivility, and so on are difficult to definitively sanction - you have to
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4850:
4838:
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4085:
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2009:
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5702:
Like others, I appreciate the attempt to move this to conclusion with some motions, but I disagree with all of SFR's suggestions:
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over long periods of time, a consensus was reached among administrators to refer the broader dispute to the arbitration committee.
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2996:
2605:
2598:
17585:
17082:
17078:
17074:
16617:, I've added "within the area of conflict" above to avoid any possible impression of the motion applying to all edits wiki-wide.
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14026:
4826:
4325:
3624:
I do like this motion as is already! Thanks for creating it; I hadn't noticed the need for adjusting the other remedies as well.
3405:
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14560:
9863:
I think SFR's AA3 motion would be counter productive - a real "the beatings will continue until morale improves" type of thing.
8626:
and acknowledge that POV - the frequent failure, on both sides, to do so is why we have a POV pushing issue in this topic area.
2383:
The current topic areas under this restriction are listed as having the "extended confirmed restriction" in the table of active
2311:
I don't see any contradiction between "userspace" in "area of conflict" and "talkspace" at ECR. They serve different purposes.
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11318:-compliant scholarly work by largely-Jewish academics, but doing so with a massive-scale disregard for the ArbCom principle of
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makes a sequence of edits (that may or may not be noticed and result in people having to spend time creating and processing an
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17540:'d (noting that the section for BLAR contains a "see also" hatnote linking to the deletion policy's section on redirections).
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12843:
here as it would be rude not to, given I've mentioned one of their closes. For full disclosure, I opposed the original close.
10493:
justified in breaking the rule. You didn't even check to see if his wild offline claims (presumably about me) were correct. (
6240:
3965:
17070:
16960:
13193:
10633:
10228:
I object to being hauled into this artificial mess (caused by an innovation in reading that defines all reverts as identical
10147:
may have the effect of increasing the amount of off-wiki canvassing and use of socks that already occurs in this topic area.
7831:
7369:
7240:
and quantify, a bit like corruption, black markets, Advanced Persistent Threat group activity, but we can see some features.
6415:
6: Apart from myself, and given the number of times they are mentioned, I think we should specify just which editors are the
6230:
6198:
policies and consensus. There’s probably a reason why Knowledge is now maybe the only mainstream source to use terms such as
5873:
Something to address the socking -- though I don't know what (ECR hasn't posed a problem for the topic area's dedicated LTAs)
5253:
I do acknowledge that I left out several individuals whose behavior was directly mentioned, and I will fix that issue now. —
4765:
4716:
4469:
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be changed to "edits relating to the Arab-Israeli conflict, to pages and discussions in all namespaces with the exception of
11422:
I can appreciate that ArbCom must find it baffling that so many editors on this request page are asserting things about the
6229:
Much of what I was discussing is unfolding as we speak. Take a look at this discussion in an article recently created by an
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5043:
3953:
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with the affected editors' participation in the disputed types of discussions, other than the mere fact of their doing so.
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without a single statement from the single reported editor, and why ArbCom's task in this situation isn't to evaluate only
14597:. Everything had to be resolved by RfCs, which take a month to discuss and then maybe another month to wait to be closed.
14508:
14480:
13588:, I don't know what is." That is the problem; you think you know "the Truth", but you obviously haven't read what genocide
5116:
The widespread nature of edit warring, battleground mentality, and POV pushing within the Arab-Israeli conflict topic area.
4940:
351:
of an arbitration decision or procedure (including an arbitration enforcement action issued by an administrator, such as a
9411:. There's already no policy that defines a revert which makes 1rr a pain. Let's not have any more vague rules to enforce.
7300:
something, revision count, rev date, SPA-ness etc. I imagine the PIA related part of the sock graph would be quite small.
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16445:
For this motion there are 10 active arbitrators. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 6 support or oppose votes are a majority.
16273:
For this motion there are 10 active arbitrators. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 6 support or oppose votes are a majority.
16106:
For this motion there are 10 active arbitrators. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 6 support or oppose votes are a majority.
15930:
For this motion there are 10 active arbitrators. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 6 support or oppose votes are a majority.
15750:
For this motion there are 10 active arbitrators. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 6 support or oppose votes are a majority.
15580:
For this motion there are 10 active arbitrators. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 6 support or oppose votes are a majority.
13909:
13091:. Keeping entrenched editors to protect us from socks and newbies is like keeping cats to protect the mice from kittens.
12690:
I am relatively new to this topic area on Knowledge, though I have read around the topic offline over a number of years.
8774:
Both your points, but especially the second, are emblematic of that incivility. A dozen requests have been made of me at
8503:
I think we can also ensure it is accurate through a collaborative process. For example, looking at the top 20 editors at
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4958:
4946:
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4133:
3457:
For this motion there are 10 active arbitrators. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 6 support or oppose votes are a majority.
3216:
For this motion there are 10 active arbitrators. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 6 support or oppose votes are a majority.
88:
17783:
16331:
While I understand the intention behind this, in practice I don't think this would improve anything in the CTOP area. -
15916:
14577:, with respect to Motion 4: Enforced BRD, I personally felt that this provision became fairly unworkable in the case of
14530:
I'd like to request the admins below kindly consider "moderated discussion" as a way to achieve consensus, and consider
13077:
AE can't address coordinated action nearly as well as it can address individual problem users (which is why we're here).
7946:
In response to the comment by SashiRolls, only three listings (out of 109) were significantly impacted by sock puppets:
2102:
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from and about an article that I had extensively edited into another geographically-relate article. At the time, I did
17086:
14531:
14341:
14303:
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14203:
14084:
10611:
It is not an intractable problem on wikipedia, despite incessant rumour-mongering. It is, an enduring premise of mine,
8006:
is, and a word limit will impede this. This will in turn worsen one of the other issues in the topic area, POV pushing.
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edits relating to the Arab-Israeli conflict, to pages and discussions in all namespaces with the exception of userspace
2266:
17139:
15539:
Just noting that I have seen these motions and am considering them along with all of the feedback from the community.
13065:
be the case, but that just means it's all the more important that experienced users are above reproach on POV issues).
7727:
my statement, I didnt even say anything about you besides that you have repeatedly called me a POV pusher since then.
7495:
this entire discussion was triggered (at least in part) by ban evasion, so it seems appropriate to try to address it.
14162:
7571:
7509:
7260:
7071:
7040:
6990:
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6206:(read the lead) with its own voice. Many disputed changes like this have been introduced through edit warring (check
5557:
were to sock puppets ... The impact of sock puppets on this issue is trivial and not worth concerning ourselves with.
4952:
4771:
4271:
4079:
2003:
149:
16719:
Given the extensive feedback on this, which seems to generally feel this is a bad idea, I am reconsidering my vote.
7724:
Knowledge:WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration/Current Article Issues/Archive. Legality of Israeli settlements
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5008:
3426:. Once added by any editor, any marking, template, or editnotice may be removed only by an uninvolved administrator.
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Regarding a potential Motion 3b, maybe it is better to split the negatives from the motion? Maybe something like:
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pass in lieu of a case (as opposed to at the end of a case where I think such statements can be genuinely useful).
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Unless thought through extensively, there is a potential contradiction between what is defined as related content:
27:
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WP:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Conduct in deletion-related editing/Proposed decision#TenPoundHammer topic banned (1)
13791:. Funnily enough, when one of these editors has their conduct called out, the others tend to show up and bludgeon
12243:
I'd also like to say I politely disagree with Tryptofish's assessment of the main area of conflict; while that is
8729:
Can you clarify your point about the other articles? I don’t fully understand the argument you are trying to make.
7901:
There are a significant number of issues in this topic area that it is likely only ARBCOM can address, including:
6038:
30/500 restriction has actively worsened this situation by giving the long-term problematic editors an advantage).
5355:
cause the same issue with more or less auto-biting good-faith editors new to the area, and might be reasonable. —
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4013:
3959:
17708:
17589:
14663:
14386:
publishing how-to videos, organizing edits, and compiling lists of "work in progress" pages they aimed to modify.
13397:
12508:. Good-faith ideas that I appreciate, but not sure if they'd fully deal with the core issues of the ARBPIA area.
12115:
12089:
12063:
12037:
12011:
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11431:
skip the workshop. Perhaps the evidence will end up surprising you. If so, again, that's a feature and not a bug.
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9398:
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who appears to be an expert in security studies. Iskandar323 opens a technical move without any prior discussion
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56:
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and that it was unlikely to be true anyway, before accusing me of "partisan" and "political" motivations, while
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7105:
One place to look might be in the relationship between account age and revisions to see who's doing the editing.
5509:
review it, I see it as moot, and I don't think reviewing it would be a good use of anyone's time at this point.
5478:
Limiting everyone in the topic area to 500-1000 words is a terrible idea. This topic area has more sources (see
5073:
5068:
5058:
5048:
4001:
1897:
1092:
18011:
16887:
15923:. These restrictions must be logged and may be appealed in the same way as all contentious topic restrictions.
13530:
13210:
12100:
a result of removing "in Israel" from Israeli settlements (when I removed them all from "in Israel" categories
12022:
saying it is an Israeli settlement makes that clear. And for those who have been here long enough to remember,
11341:
should just be removed from the topic area, that's what the Evidence phase of a case is supposed to correct. --
10344:
and a headache (I’d imagine) for administrators. I used to involve myself heavily in this topic area, and it’s
9221:
discussions at appeals, and put those decisions in the hands of the people the community elected to make them.
8817:. If you can provide me a couple of topic areas of similar size to ARBPIA, I can address both your request and
6001:
5930:
5792:. This is an example of why "outside voices" aren't necessarily better than the voices of experienced editors.
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5038:
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4993:
4978:
4710:
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2469:
2315:"area of conflict" to exclude talkspace, because then the ECR restrictions on talkspace would not apply to it.
366:
21:
16941:
16881:
15423:
13801:
calling into questions the motives of editors who are simply trying to remove bad behavior from the topic area
12887:
I do think it's a problem when editors edit war, or cross the bounds of civility, or bludgeon discussions, or
10494:
9173:. This could work if "substantive reason" requires a talk page explanation and not just a brief edit summary.
6458:
Oppose Incident is a euphemistic whitewash for what occurred. Would support 2008 killings in Bureij or similar
5098:
thread has closed with instructions to refer the dispute to the full arbitration committee for final decision.
3947:
3858:
thread has closed with instructions to refer the dispute to the full arbitration committee for final decision.
17700:
17501:
17479:
17435:
17404:
17387:
16408:
This may need some workshopping but the idea is to prioritise outside voices over the so-called "regulars".
14047:
14001:
13027:
choose not to insult each other's intelligence—it's public knowledge who the most prominent tag-teamers are.
8404:
7834:
because I opposed "incident" as euphemistic for the murder of 7 civilians, including 6 children. When I said
5849:
5844:(created less than a year ago) has been edited by 1,288 editors and has 787 page watchers. For a comparison,
5003:
4886:
4596:
4205:
3588:
2510:
the intended request is likely "remove exception of userspace" instead of "change userspace to talkspace" in
2064:
78:
17959:
is not always worth saving. The broad scope of the restriction favors including otherwise borderline topics.
17114:
I would like the Arbitration Committee to clarify which actions are allowed under the topic ban. Thank you.
16929:
10284:
than it needs to be, but also negatively affects the experiences and habits of newer editors who follow the
9965:
way and I think it accomplished the goal you're concerned about here) I haven't reread the past split case @
8782:, and I have spent a considerable amount of time addressing those requests, including two of three you made.
7359:
It is the kind of error that contributes to the long-term inability to resolve the issues in the topic area.
6064:
5814:
the media is biased, because it's true, because all people are biased to various degrees, it's inescapable.
5659:
So the disruption on Knowledge is not pro-Israeli vs. pro-Palestinian; it's not that kind of simple. But it
4445:
4253:
3117:
had not been established. (In fact, the ARBPIA 500/30 restriction is what eventually led to the adoption of
16935:
16875:
16814:
14826:
Clerks and Arbitrators should use this section to clarify their understanding of which motions are passing.
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13172:
12157:
editing humanly possible, from a core group of editors that perennially show up to scream at each other in
11597:
11579:
11185:
9693:
One more note: if ArbCom does decide to just adjudicate the AE report for האופה it should also adjudicate
6375:
I'm not saying that, I'm saying that there has been an influx of new editors regardless of the temperature.
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Long-term tag-team edit warring by several groups of individuals with the Arab-Israeli conflict topic area.
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Clerks and Arbitrators should use this section to clarify their understanding of which motions are passing.
2776:
2082:
2070:
2033:
1200:
395:
17626:
Yes, because it is participation in said discussions, whether contesting PRODs or nominating for deletion.
17422:@7&6=13: I know I am "implicated". That's why I upper-cased "involved" in my section header *facepalm*
17150:
given up entirely editing of DELETION discussions, and will now avoid all MERGE discussions in the future.
11729:
easily spot and deal with.) I'm not a fan of enforced BRD in the best of times, but to the extent that it
6399:
Where is the empirical evidence for these outrageous spluttering caricatures of a very complex environment
5486:
for an idea of how many academic books have been published just in the last five years), and more sources
5393:
Editors should avoid repeating the same point or making so many comments that they dominate the discussion
5110:
Long-term slow-motion edit warring by a number of individuals within the Arab-Israeli conflict topic area.
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4349:
4241:
3929:
18016:
17544:
11147:
10033:
of authority, but because of the complexity of the case combined with the standard unblockables problem.
9435:
any other reasonable measures that are necessary and proportionate for the smooth running of the project.
7924:. This drives editors away from the topic area, worsening issues with POV pushing and stealth canvassing.
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4692:
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4590:
4548:
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2021:
14538:. This is unavoidable given the volume of scholarship involved. But it was largely kept out of the RfC (
13535:
13378:
alternative solution: better cat-herders, or better cat-herding rules, are apparently not on the table,
11921:
way of approaching at least part of this. It's at least the most workable suggestion I've seen thusfar.
10356:
a culture of bludgeoning, tag teaming and tendentious editing, particularly of the Righting Great Wrongs
7268:
labelling of socks is a bit spotty turning it into a bit of a treasure hunt. But I was too lazy to look.
5679:; they go back two weeks. Look at how much of other editor's time they wasted on talk pages. Just their
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Knowledge:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Conduct in deletion-related editing#TenPoundHammer topic banned (1)
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discussions that proposed moving an article to or away from a title containing "massacre" were reviewed
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2634:'General sanctions upon related content' says it applies to related content but then redefines this is
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14542:) itself. The RfC itself was orderly. And finally, it was closed by a panel with a detailed rationale.
12404:) - I support coming down on them as hard as I do the former group, including more than a few editors
12101:
9480:
your "magical incantation" comment confuses me. Where did SFR say it was confusing how to refer? I've
8327:
POV pushing by itself; additional analysis of the comments and !votes made is required, such as I did
6898:
Topic bans don't solve problems. They split the PIA community into 2 classes, editors who comply with
5648:
it's supposed to be an international zone. That second group isn't "pro-Palestinian," just pro-truth.
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4481:
4385:
4157:
4049:
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17687:
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Knowledge:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Conduct in deletion-related editing#7&6=thirteen topic banned
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potentially be productive to stem issues without doing a full case and thus is perhaps worth trying.
9349:, I mean any guidance at all. Absent a case I want to know what Arbcom wants to see for enforcement.
6649:
of the structure you are talking about. What is the likelihood that sweeping statements are accurate?
5741:
specific evidence (at ARCA or ARC) of recent disruption that hasn't been addressed by the community.
5475:
private evidence involved). Because these criteria are not met, the case request should be declined.
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5434:
Knowledge:Contentious topics#Referrals from Arbitration Enforcement noticeboard to the full Committee
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The two topic bans say the editors are "topic banned from deletion discussions, broadly construed".
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List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
16369:
That would only drive away the existing editors, some of whom are quite valuable in the topic area.
15200:
You are correct: since the request is coming from AE, it would go through ARCA, not a case request.
14321:
naive or sanguine. Canvassing is the elephant in the room. There is canvassing, without a doubt, by
13597:
agreee that it was Jewish military groups/IDF that stood for the vast majority of the depopulation.
13468:
11741:, which is why they haven't been done yet, but sweeping from-above solutions aren't a substitute. --
10964:, i.e. held without trial, lawyers or due process, and probably without a skerrick of evidence like
10346:
the only such area where I’ve witnessed personal attacks, bullying, glaring dishonesty and hypocrisy
9795:
is no accusation you've done anything wrong isn't going to help this topic area either, in my view.
9440:
interpret existing policy and guidelines, recognise and call attention to standards of user conduct
9217:
reasonable exercise of administrator discretion. This would hopefully cut down significantly on 0.3
5776:, all by accounts new to the topic area, at the same time as high-profile off-wiki commentary, e.g.
5497:
Removing appeals to the community is not something arbcom can do, as that would require a change to
5105:
Throughout the discussion among administrators at AE, several sources of disruption were identified:
4145:
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Lists of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request
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get redirected or AFD'd by others, but in none of these cases did I make a suggestion of doing so.
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16905:
14514:
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I don't have a huge amount to say about the general question here, although I do gravitate towards
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Don't really think I can come up with anything new to add w/r/t the proposals, so I'll just second
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No matter. This unfocused, throw everything at the wall and see what sticks request, is a bad idea.
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by actors with block logs containing 'checkuser', 'sock', 'multiple accounts', 'evasion' or 'proxy'
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4427:
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might remember more about the discussion and thinking behind this and my statement in general too.
2524:
If arbitrators did not consider it at all, the strongest argument for the initiating side would be
2206:
suspect more inbound if left unresolved. If there is another way to clean it up, I'm all ears. And
1985:
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request
210:
74:
14316:: Yes, one can argue that all articles in controversial subject areas will be viewed as biased by
13035:. People who assert academic consensus on a subjective controversial topic are at best victims of
12602:, but as a quick roll-over of that link shows, he is controlling what page visitors are aware of.
10471:
I'd never seen this data before, because I don't know how to consult files that log stuff on wiki.
8467:; while some individual sources are biased, I also think a lot of the criticism of Israel is fair.
6236:, Selfstudier casts aspersions on other editors who joined the discussion and disagreed with them
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14539:
14410:
Would it be useful to treat all articles on specific contentious topics as biased and unbalanced
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drastically trimming down articles of marginal importance that have become bloated with polemics.
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systematically manipulating content to favour specific interpretations of facts or points of view
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seems reasonable, which everyone could have and maybe should have accepted and walked away from.
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This has been open for almost a month, and yet nobody has yet posted a specific list of parties,
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For the purposes of editing restrictions in the ARBPIA topic area, the "area of conflict" is the
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2015:
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Prior to my comments on the talk page there was no methodology section. Now, BM has added some
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sort of resolution here without a thorough examination of the conduct of the principal parties.
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9593:
to moderate discussions (not just RfCs) may or may not work, but would feel like something that
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those of Israelis, in particular Jewish Israelis. And guess what, I can source that, with ease.
3924:
2608:' applies CTOP, ECR and 1RR applies to all other pages except userpages and user talk pages if '
2472:
I did a couple of days ago is a useful test. Is the revert valid or invalid under the remedies?
2378:" So now, we ask, what is the "topic area" in the case of ARBPIA? That sentence has a footnote:
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No sure if this has been raised already, but there is evidence circulating online of potential
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12780:, and it's hard to imagine whatever fills this void being worse than what is already here. As @
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of BilledMammal's edits to mainspace have been reverted, which might be worth looking into. --
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A proportionally lower number of unique editors in the topic area than in Knowledge in general.
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to try. Seemed like a reasonable request and a result of you need more evidence to demonstrate
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Sorry to see you have "profound disappointment." But I was within the prior rule as this was
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I'm very skeptical that the proposed motions will have a positive effect on the topic area. --
8439:
is aligned with NPOV is for them to recognize that POV, as it allows them to try to manage it.
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This was determined by calculating changes to PIA made by those Billed Mammal listed in red,
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The impact of sock puppets on this issue is trivial and not worth concerning ourselves with.
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Save your request and check that it looks how you think it should and says what you intended.
17:
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yet again), thereby artificially enforcing "neutrality" by simply evening the numbers. That
6555:, these knowledgeable Wikipedians, who exactly are they? If you are thinking of those often
2167:
To be clear, my opinion is that ECR, being later, should take precedence but that's just me.
17918:
tags, as it is a maintenance tag and not necessarily a discussion (though potentially the
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Seeing as I'm the first to vote for this, I've boldly added my suggested sunset provision.
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I agree with you that AE can handle stuff like sockfarms and newish accounts that POV-push.
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Knowledge:Contentious topics/Arab–Israeli conflict § General sanctions upon related content
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Knowledge:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Emdosis
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tl;dr: Just like the last time I got brought here, I feel this is much ado about nothing.
15250:
that the scope is important, though I'm not committed to any particular scope just yet. -
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time when closing a discussion. More clerks would be motivated to join in too potentially.
10797:
subsequently blocked on 21 July 2023. His view was supported by a suspected Icewhiz sock,
8:
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is posted I intend to make this issue my primary focus as much as possible. I agree with
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Those attempting to weaponise AE by bringing multiple threads against ideological enemies
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discussions over 5000 words. This should be done immediately, even if a case is accepted.
8465:
the media, organizations, governments, academia (everyone?) etc. is biased against Israel
8085:
argued that bias wasn't sufficient reason to change it's status from "generally reliable"
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the topic area regardless of whether pages have the enforcement templates on them or not.
2601:' applies CTOP, ECR and 1RR to all articles broadly related to the Arab-Israeli conflict.
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2046:
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that 13 is TB from; a restriction on editing the articles themselves would hopefully be
8500:
I disagree that the label is unfalsifiable; evidence can be provided for and against it.
6559:
some greater knowledge or ability in this topic area, then oh boy do you have it wrong.
6248:. I can only guess how this editor feels right now and how long they will stay with us.
5127:
Several suggestions were floated by administrators during the discussion, including the
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2653:"(i.e. pages not otherwise related to the area of conflict)" is replaced with "(see ])".
374:
Add the diffs of the talk page notifications under the applicable header of the request.
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15573:. A rough consensus of arbitrators will be required to overturn or amend the sanction.
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14589:). In small discussions (2-4 people) this motion effectively gives every participant a
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rewriting main articles to present conflicting views in a concise and intelligible way.
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The precedent of retroactive punishments for areas of conflict is a dangerous precedent
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that edits in userspace are not in the ARBPIA "topic area". Where is the contradiction?
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Knowledge:Contentious topics/Arab–Israeli conflict#Definition of the "area of conflict"
1979:
Knowledge:Contentious topics/Arab–Israeli conflict#Definition of the "area of conflict"
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38:
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These notes were last updated by an automatic check at 22:21, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
13237:
deleting duplicate articles about the same topic, or merging articles closely related.
13087:
To stretch the cat analogy that's been raised, we're trying to build a home for mice.
10606:
The world's mostmost intractable problem continues to be our most intractable problem.
6119:
I think pressing a mass TBAN on this topic area would be somewhat equivalent to doing
5119:
The ineffectiveness of previous warnings within the topic area to stop the disruption.
2895:
These notes were last updated by an automatic check at 22:21, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
2376:
The Committee may apply the "extended confirmed restriction" to specified topic areas.
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17125:
I acknowledge that I am aware of this discussion. I am aware of the topic ban from
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The terms just means that the editor sympathizes with that side more than the other.
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experienced editors . . turning the entire topic into even more of a WP:BATTLEGROUND
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8392:) is included in the activity statistics; they're grouped as one of Icewhiz's socks:
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Occasional lapses are forgivable, but it has become common for editors to ignore the
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As should be more obvious now, it's everyone who contributed to the AE discussion. —
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1131:. Numerous legacy and current shortcuts can be used to more quickly reach this page:
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further their point of view and ensure Knowledge reflects what they think is "right"
10379:
entrenched editors . . . their behavior is the worst of any topic area on Knowledge.
9956:
ArbCom commits to not sanctioning editor conduct in such a case (except for conduct
8287:
With that said, I don't believe #3 is as incorrect as you make out; your !vote was:
8208:
Regarding the prevalence of issues in the topic area, the following may be helpful:
7108:
Is it mostly these older accounts, or newer accounts, or something more complicated?
5313:
identify that sort of behavior—perhaps the section for statements in this thread? —
3043:
3021:
2424:". Why does that make any sense? You want to remove talkspace from the topic area??
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15403:: I invented ECP, so I am 100% with rule changes to make the cat herding easier --
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A bold vote isn't necessary, but it is an option. Since the question came up at AE
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14391:"Knowledge is not just an online encyclopedia. It’s a battleground for narratives."
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the indefinite removal (topic ban - not warning) of any and all experienced editors
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bring your opponents to drama boards to try to get them removed from the topic area
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We have been too slow to act here. It has been public knowledge for some time that
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the indefinite removal (topic ban - not warning) of any and all experienced editors
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10005:- but "make it easier to run CU" isn't something ArbCom or even enwiki can decide.
9940:
9915:
As ArbCom considers an appropriate response I'll throw out a potentially bad idea.
9741:
If no-one else had replied in the referred case, none of us would be here right now
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If no-one else had replied in the referred case, none of us would be here right now
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2389:" So we click on that link and find a big table. ARBPIA is near the end. It says:
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Also, per Rosguill below. That particular shambles of an RfC is quite revealing.
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I would like to echo the points of many editors above, that there is a culture of
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I see the "usual suspects" attempting to downplay or deny that there's any dispute
10271:
9323:
Knowledge:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Armenia-Azerbaijan 3#Administrators encouraged
8319:
You're right, corrected. Please let me know if there are other misclassifications.
7418:
A proper analysis would need to compare reliable sources against !voting patterns.
6948:"How many revisions to articles, talk pages, RfCs, RSN etc. are by sock accounts?"
5756:
Meanwhile... here's some actual disruption in the topic area, going on right now:
2990:
Definition of the "area of conflict" Clause 4 (b): Arbitrator views and discussion
2370:
The contradiction you claim to exist actually does not exist. Let's start at ECR:
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A version of this that admins can impose on individual articles might also work.
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14687:) Designation is not a suggestion that an editor's contributions are problematic.
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9382:
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Immediately jumping to accusations that an editor is "lying" is not aligned with
8158:
7610:
5967:) or incidental tag-team editwarring should be treated similarly would be useful
5914:
Palestine, the change in status quo hardly meant much more than a media circus).
5877:
4308:
3707:
3539:
3280:
3105:
3093:
3070:
2627:
The 'Definition of the "area of conflict"' decision says that related content is
2346:
defines which pages and edits are subject to editing restrictions in ARBPIA, and
2255:
1161:
1125:
There must be no threaded discussion, so please comment only in your own section.
17142:, and I will not repeat them here. I had no intent to violate the TOPIC BAN on
10999:
today, we've had an editor present evidence right here about the topic area and
9916:
7567:
Yearly and monthly revision counts by all actors in the PIA topic area over time
5092:
WP:CTOP#Referrals from Arbitration Enforcement noticeboard to the full Committee
3852:
WP:CTOP#Referrals from Arbitration Enforcement noticeboard to the full Committee
2995:
At the moment, "userspace" (including user pages, user talk pages and subpages,
2418:
WP:Contentious_topics/Arab–Israeli conflict#Definition of the "area_of_conflict"
2406:
WP:Contentious_topics/Arab–Israeli conflict#Definition of the "area_of_conflict"
2165:
was other conduct leading to a topic ban that factor doesn't seem to apply here.
240:
17860:
17726:
17537:
17500:
Well, I think you made up in opacity what you lacked in clarity. Thank though!
17463:
on a previous committee, 'banned means baned', absolutely in line with WP:TBAN:
17308:
16561:
15489:
than it's used to and hearing appeals of CTOP sanctions or acting as AE admins
15431:'s conduct and close the original AE report with or without a sanction against
15346:
request, a more fully informed decision is going to be a more effective one. -
15173:
15138:
15113:
14786:
14142:. Otherwise we're just going by feel and will have every chance of producing a
14127:
14115:
14092:
13820:
13729:
13714:
13624:
13604:
13509:
13044:
avoid the use of news media and primary reporting in articles on current events
12805:
12735:
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12702:
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12001:
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10508:
10472:
10454:
10436:
10417:
10314:
one side has been consistently able to push their POV through weight of numbers
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10006:
9970:
9936:
9921:
9897:
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9781:
9766:
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9698:
9680:
9657:
9636:
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9567:
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9534:
9509:
9490:
9463:
9443:
9363:
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9132:
8688:
8648:
8482:
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8238:
8129:
8107:
7532:
7378:
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6965:
6899:
6888:
6436:
6393:
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5644:
5640:
5607:
5440:
5348:
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4507:
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2768:
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2711:
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2546:
2532:
2290:
2138:
2041:
1141:
352:
258:
234:
16522:
Noting that I will likely support any tweaks and changes to clarify "recent".
8733:
7132:
25th, 50th and 75th percentiles are marked along with the average account age.
6342:
4.Several editors suggest that editors are scared off by a toxic environment.
2338:
So a messy argument on some user's talk page is what counts as an explanation?
1893:
1088:
335:
Choose one of the following options and open the page in a new tab or window:
18005:
17937:
17923:
17795:
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17171:
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16037:
16007:
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15656:
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15377:
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14550:
14447:
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14419:
14393:
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13784:
13581:
13577:
13522:
13518:
13340:
13203:
13187:
13179:
13046:
is something of a pet cause of mine in general (that I've elaborated upon in
12924:
12754:
12743:
12628:
12543:
12343:
12207:
With regards to the core group/"usual suspects" claim, I'd also like to link
11618:
11084:
11048:
10907:
10782:
10399:
10385:
10337:
9838:
9731:
9459:
9269:
9248:
9188:
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9139:
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8644:
8429:
8347:
8281:
8266:
8221:
8058:
8026:
7999:
7940:
7921:
7830:
Again, BilledMammals "evidence" is dishonest. He claims I supported massacre
7575:
7457:
7436:
7413:
7067:
6506:
6249:
6239:, Nableezy asks the opening editor on their page if it's their first account
6215:
6199:
6120:
5910:
5881:
5853:
5820:
5793:
5742:
5712:
5688:
5620:
5592:
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5514:
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2515:
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2505:
2455:
2444:
2425:
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2319:
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2157:
2145:
2130:
1146:
17584:
Regarding TPH (which I was unaware of their recent merge proposals before),
12613:
12247:
dispute in the area, and as they say, a particularly nasty one, I think the
10502:
10316:, either by long-term tag teaming or by swinging poorly-attended discussions
9566:
was asking for some time for a bit to see if we could avoid this referral).
7122:
Producing histograms showing the number of revisions vs account age in days
7007:
Look for changes in the number of unique editors in the topic area over time
2499:
pointed it to me, I believe I can provide some clarity for the arbitrators.
2162:
Not only. See Barkeep49 statement at the relevant AE complaint (still open)
14761:
arbs stating their reasons for or against the idea of opening a full case.
14685:
Self-designations may be requested to be reviewed for removal after a year.
14331:
need to say that loud and clear, without being mealy-mouthed or equivocal.
13918:
13623:
Try clarifying the first few lines. I obviously got the wrong impression.
13264:
12838:
12826:
12781:
12773:
12667:
My mentioning this in the methodology section bothered BM, who immediately
12568:
12509:
12475:
12429:
12351:
12303:
12271:
12220:
12181:
11636:
11435:
11315:
11080:
10527:
10319:
8442:
I think it would also be helpful if you told us how you classify yourself?
8394:
6927:
6660:
less, but at least there are some numbers rather than stories and feelings.
5963:
Additional clarification on whether coordinated tag-team editwarring (i.e.
3051:
ARBPIA-related edits to their sandbox and then move that to the mainspace.
2551:
2531:
I'm arguing in favor of the opposing side, the strongest argument would be
15056:
Maybe even everyone is limited to 500-1000 words in any ARBPIA discussion.
14681:
on a user's talk page / by being logged at the Arbitration enforcement log
13938:
13797:
deflecting focus on to the editor making the report or those supporting it
12673:
as being a datum apparently unrelated to disruption in the topic area. --
10627:
Enemies and Neighbours: Arabs and Jews in Palestine and Israel, 1917-2017,
9097:
Talk:Re'im_music_festival_massacre/Archive_2#Requested_move_8_October_2023
6563:, blatant and obvious. If members of the committee can't see it happening
5172:
17772:
merge discussions are processed in the same venue as deletion discussions
17558:
15400:
14581:. There was lots of very lengthy discussion on who reverted what (eg see
13898:
13608:
13538:
13492:
13473:
13442:
13379:
13054:
12074:
11822:
11789:
11190:
11028:
7722:
Thats what I meant Number 57, you objected to the consensus developed at
7388:
7285:
it is unlikely to be me because the cost/benefit makes it too expensive.
6568:
6538:
6095:
5945:) had been placed in text for long while (and therefore should remain by
5672:
4116:
17900:
Merge discussions are not deletion discussions; they are discussions of
17855:
Delete button that admins get. ArbCom may do with that as they will. :)
17596:
should similarly be seen as a clear-cut, possibly egregious violation. ―
16020:
I prefer this slightly more targeted approach over blanket word limits.
15035:
Palestine-Israel articles (AE referral): Arbitrator views and discussion
13995:
is just going to be a bigger timesink than just doing them separately. —
13430:
less about the history of the area, than some of my fellow wiki-editors.
12980:
provided by Nableezy: a reminder that WikiProjects cannot enforce their
7129:
To keep things visually simple the bin size for account age is 365 days.
7047:
The top plot shows the unique editor count over time for the 3 datasets.
6234:
5720:
words; how would we ever decide "Gaza genocide" in under 500 words each?
3386:("Definition of the 'area of conflict'") is amended to read as follows:
1898:
1093:
16332:
15809:
15372:
I was hoping when I first joined ArbCom that we would not need to hold
15347:
15314:
15288:
15273:
15251:
15225:
15201:
15180:
15158:
15144:
15123:
15098:
13904:
Anyway, I'm primarily commenting here because I was mentioned above by
13752:
some editors are continuing to blatantly ignore policies and guidelines
13670:
13654:
13639:
12776:'s suggestion of nuking the topic area with mass topic bans. This is a
12251:
issue is indeed the Israeli vs Palestinian POV-warring. While AE could
11667:"who are the bad people we can make go away in order to solve this." --
10489:
10297:
9548:
9523:
9504:
9477:
9060:
8189:
5811:
widespread belief, both on and off-wiki, that these articles are biased
5789:
5781:
5423:
3703:
3641:
3535:
3276:
3089:
3066:
2888:
Definition of the "area of conflict" Clause 4 (b): Implementation notes
2702:
17660:
That said, I agree with NYB below that we should punish participation
14437:
I'm not active in this area but I do see some serious issues with the
11617:, which is rarely enforced) as well as the battleground / aspersion /
11457:"Brief quote from a source." (). "What an editor put on the page." ().
9649:
ToBeFree: I think the fact that the thread sprawled in the way it did
9393:
that new(ish) accounts misbehaving are taken care of fairly promptly.
8797:
8760:
17885:
This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).
17856:
17154:
However, extending this TOPIC BAN for a new and additional period is
16705:
3RR currently uses 24 hours? What would you suggest as a definition?
15075:
15067:
14811:
This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).
14782:
14088:
13467:, while others have managed to get by with hardly a single scratch;
12656:
sockpuppets have made more changes to PIA than any single named user.
11869:
repeatedly threatening to quit the project if you didn't get your way
10622:
10531:
10027:
8818:
8302:
You oppose the move, and you make arguments in support of "massacre".
5302:
3752:
3744:
3689:
3662:
3654:
3648:, the more appropriate way to do so would be by amending the text at
3603:
3595:
3329:
3321:
3302:
3171:
3163:
3136:
3128:
2878:
This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).
2570:
2528:, as the broadest possible thing would be no exception to userspace.
17895:
Conduct in deletion-related editing: Arbitrator views and discussion
13256:, which I wrote 15 years ago but is just as relevant today as then.
12208:
10086:
desired at any point please ping me, presuming the case goes ahead.
9761:
HJ Mithcell: I think there are in the AE thread referring this here
6280:
article and this same subject matter is a part of the current case,
4502:
Other editors whose behavior was directly mentioned in the AE thread
1910:
Amendment request: Definition of the "area of conflict" Clause 4 (b)
211:
Amendment request: Definition of the "area of conflict" Clause 4 (b)
17697:
Merging or redirecting (0% merge, nothing copied) is not deletion.
17034:
proposing an article for deletion or contesting a proposed deletion
14653:
Statement by Supreme Deliciousness regarding Motion 4: Enforced BRD
12174:
I strongly endorse both an Arbcom case and SFR's suggested remedies
10873:
8294:
6094:
Many topic areas have specialized folks who do important work (see
1895:
1090:
13361:
PROBLEM: the cat-herding admins cannot manage herding all the cats
13121:
Knowledge:Arbitration/Index/Principles#Presumption of coordination
9670:
1) I want to make sure that ArbCom is aware of the highly related
15808:
I don't think an automatic 500 word limit would be beneficial. -
13163:
13071:
ECR makes it easy to see who's acting in bad faith via EC gaming.
13068:
ECR significantly increases the investment to create sockpuppets.
13050:), and such avoidance will almost always produce better results.
10333:
I openly endorse nuking the topic area's userbase via mass TBANs.
7014:
If the claim is true, you might expect to see a couple of things
6510:
6277:
6207:
5729:
2646:
To avoid the confusion and contradiction created I suggest that:
2514:, and the opposing side would be "add exception of userspace" to
17774:
is not accurate in this case and many others. As recommended by
13157:
the two sides have been seriously mismatched in terms of numbers
12178:
I openly endorse nuking the topic area's userbase via mass TBANs
10342:
a small group of editors making this topic area hell for editors
7777:
Is it really acceptable for an admin to be saying on this board
7070:, removing topic area articles created from Oct 7, 2023 onwards
6509:
is useful and one such is currently operating to good effect at
5838:
the Knowledge community as a whole has avoided this subject area
5715:" in a brief discussion. We can't analyze the number of RSes in
2650:"with the exception of userspace" is removed from the definition
1129:
Knowledge:Arbitration/Index/Clarification and Amendment requests
14630:
for motion 2c, can I suggest it only apply to RfCs for which a
13074:
Once discovered, a sockpuppet account is automatically blocked.
10916:
There is an extensive literature on this, not well covered in
10869:
8587:
Neutral or have a position that I have been unable to determine
7761:
I could collapse this section and point to Rosguill's instead.
7350:
Once discovered, a sockpuppet account is automatically blocked.
6669:
How many comply with policy and guidelines and how many do not?
6274:
Knowledge:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive336#Nishidani
5845:
3007:. This leads to the following result, which is confusing to me:
1116:
Requests from blocked or banned users should be made by e-mail
9763:
allegations that a particular editor is behaving tendentiously
9325:
to let us know what the committee wants done would be helpful.
8695:
I’m using the second definition of "sympathise", not the first
8066:
For example, looking at two of the discussions you've listed:
7965:
Talk:2024 Nuseirat rescue operation#Requested move 9 June 2024
7203:
uses this to justify creating a disposable account, violating
7003:
One way to see whether editors being scared away could be to
6369:
it'd be ludicrous to say that the temperature in this area is
6040:
this seems disingenuous to suggest this, especially given the
3370:
Motion: Repealing primary articles/related content distinction
2953:
Motion: Repealing primary articles/related content distinction
2872:
Definition of the "area of conflict" Clause 4 (b): Clerk notes
1899:
1094:
284:
183:
143:
131:
85:
14821:
Palestine-Israel articles (AE referral): Implementation notes
13754:
even in this request which concerns such behaviors. To quote
13653:
Closing in on two weeks since I commented the above, sheesh.
11639:, ignoring the underlying causes or more complex aspects.) --
11621:
issues mentioned above. The edit-warring is important and is
8815:
the other request that so far I've been unable to comply with
8284:, and is emblematic of the civility issues in the topic area.
7674:
Knowledge:Requests for comment/Gaza Health Ministry qualifier
5941:
when a contentious edit (which probably should be removed by
2184:, the same technicality being referred to by another editor.
1113:
may summarily remove or refactor discussion without comment.
17212:(who is implicated here) who posted the irrelevant personal
13556:
Some comments after reading some of the other comment here:
11246:
come to mind - where ARBCOM needed to do something similar.
3644:: I would consider that if we want to exempt userspace from
1127:
Archived clarification and amendment requests are logged at
17152:
You don't need to clarify or change the rule on my account.
15516:
Palestine-Israel articles (AE referral): Arbitrator motions
14590:
12052:, which I'm not sure either of us would agree is the case.
10326:, from a core group of editors that perennially show up to
7927:
The only way the topic area can be fixed is by fixing this.
7510:
Plot showing yearly and monthly ban evading revision counts
6596:
I would like to know the answer to the following question
2502:
I think there is an error in the request as pointed out by
2133:(Idk if it is worth changing both to link to namespace 1).
16735:
Clarification request: Conduct in deletion-related editing
16499:
to renew it or just let it return to the status quo ante.
10657:
Oct.7. Personal experience is risible as evidence, but it
7631:
This discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
7506:
and/or by actors in 'Knowledge sockpuppets of' categories
7366:
Being "discovered" is not the same as being reported e.g.
6934:
Unfortunately, I think the statement "it's a problem that
3777:
Amendment request: Palestine-Israel articles (AE referral)
2636:(i.e. pages not otherwise related to the area of conflict)
259:
Clarification request: Conduct in deletion-related editing
235:
Amendment request: Palestine-Israel articles (AE referral)
13910:
my close of the move review for the Gaza genocide article
11126:
works everywhere, but in no way implies duplicity.* Best
10820:
that is wiped out by such bulldozing. Let me illustrate.
5998:
Talk:Herrenvolk_democracy#Inclusion_of_Israel_in_imagebox
3196:
Motion: Definition of the "area of conflict" Clause 4 (b)
2925:
Motion: Definition of the "area of conflict" Clause 4 (b)
17369:" has a pretty strict meaning on Knowledge. A topic ban
15633:
More than happy to give AE another tool in the toolkit.
14534:
as a good example. The pre-RfC discussion involved some
13607:: I have given no such advice!!!!! Quite the opposite!
8851:
If you want to present evidence about grouped actors, I
5848:(created in 2001) has 5,686 editors and 2,928 watchers.
17735:
with this blanking, its contents can be recovered from
13488:
12141:
Not to sound repetitive, but I'll echo the comments of
8352:
To avoid dispute, I've switched #22 for Iskandar323 to
8305:
However, to avoid dispute, I have changed that cell to
6945:"How has the number of sock accounts varied over time?"
6639:
This is for all the people making sweeping statements.
6242:, and Sean Hoyland accused the creator of being a sock
5683:
go back one month. Who has time to check all of those?
3206:
topic area, the "area of conflict" shall be defined as
17908:
content should stay. I am somewhat on the fence about
17786:
is not an AfD. Neither of the restricted users edited
16950:
Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
16196:
Okay, I think this might be the most useful proposal.
13759:
This flat out contradicts the applicable PAG pages of
12428:
of the problematic editors be banned, POV be damned.
11704:
Motion 2a / 2b, Word limits: Bludgeoning is certainly
9533:
so I will happily take advantage of it going forward.
7111:
Is some kind of evidence of article ownership visible?
5578:
The way my report against HaOfa "sprawled" is because
5232:
WT:Arbitration/Requests#Template for referrals from AE
5139:, or 0RR restrictions on large numbers of individuals
4973:
Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
2097:
Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
17750:
The omission of PROD was mentioned by arbitrators at
17069:
TenPoundHammer has started proposed merges including
14857:
12742:
be a factor, has resulted in a topic area where, as @
10250:
have worked together to create a hostile battleground
3560:
Posting for discussion, per internal disucssion with
3026:
Any edits in namespace 2 ("User") or 3 ("User talk").
2308:
Can we have this request actually explained, please?
17723:
WP:Redirect#Redirects that replace previous articles
17532:, therefore potentially resulting in the content of
14969:
14805:
Palestine-Israel articles (AE referral): Clerk notes
14466:
14389:
As one published material that I referenced put it,
14177:
an intermediary civility board at the Village Pump.
13814:
discussion. I support this case being opened with a
9695:
Knowledge:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#PeleYoetz
8736:, when I answered the equivalent question from you)
5717:
Template:Expert opinions in the Gaza genocide debate
3013:'s extended-confirmed restriction does not apply to:
316:
of a closed Arbitration Committee case or decision.
17058:I created this clarification request after reading
14181:and aired their views on the subject of civility.
13455:Also, some cats have been more attacked than most,
13437:defined ;/, I didn' think I scratched a cat's face
10392:
have been seriously mismatched in terms of numbers.
9697:which was closed as moot after this ARCA referral.
9321:, if you're trying to avoid a case, something like
8780:
User talk:BilledMammal/ARBPIA discussion statistics
8463:Personally, I don't subscribe to the position that
8163:I've attempted to address your request to identify
6344:
this example for the Zionism article (Sean.hoyland)
6282:
6 Levivich diffs refer (in the last two statements)
3574:; this contentious topics procedure applies to all
3570:Unless otherwise specified, contentious topics are
3035:' extended-confirmed restriction does not apply to:
15422:/ HaOfa, 2024-08-11, 20:50 UTC. The reported user
13971:) to this past March, 41 of them are PIA related.
13155:Number 57's point gets at the heart of the issue:
12984:on articles. Conclusions reached by a WikiProject
10918:Media coverage of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict
8075:argued that it was unreliable due to "severe bias"
7670:Talk:Sbarro restaurant suicide bombing#MEMRI quote
6089:to correctly attribute which side says what, etc.
5617:the replies that actually happened split the focus
5230:@Levivich: There's currently a discussion over at
2491:This amendment request came to my attention after
8776:User talk:BilledMammal/ARBPIA activity statistics
8476:Generally, I don't think we're mischaracterizing
5663:editors who follow RS vs. a bunch of socks; it's
18003:
17879:Conduct in deletion-related editing: Clerk notes
17031:initiating or participating in merge discussions
14289:topic area is concerned. Others, I do not know.
8486:by Thebiguglyalien, and my RM table, is useful.
7235:Replicators (socks) - the gift that keeps giving
6893:plenty of accounts evading topic bans and blocks
3202:For the purposes of editing restrictions in the
16971:I request clarification on these two remedies:
14465:I wasn't intending to comment, but then I read
13089:We've known the dangers of cats for a long time
8809:Edits made since 2022 to article and talk space
8526:Generally align with a pro-Palestinian position
8480:, but if you want something more solid I think
8220:, regarding the prevalence of sock puppets and
7018:The number of unique editors reducing over time
7010:Compare the topic area to the rest of Knowledge
3208:the Arab-Israeli conflict, broadly interpreted.
2214:has now raised the question indirectly as well
17066:to a merge discussion violated the topic ban.
16675:articles can stay stable for weeks or months.
13831:who have, even just once, turned the heat up.
13330:a recent discussion of general Israeli sources
10310:core group of 10-15 editors in this topic area
7441:The top 20 contributors made 23% of the edits.
5387:) regarding the bludgeoning. I would point to
340:Click here to file a request for clarification
15879:I would support this if it were 1,000 words.
13525:, after nearly 20 years each for both of you.
10579:. Thanks Sean. That is precisely the kind of
10453:suit to be filed against me in the future:):(
10270:in a way inconsistent with a CTOP subject.' (
8907:and one statement in the Discussion section.
5494:majority of editors are doing nothing wrong.
1208:
403:
329:To file a clarification or amendment request:
17469:may not edit at all, even if the edits seem
17318:I don't see anything wrong with placing the
17218:that I called out at the merger discussion.
16070:Proposed. Per SFR. To mitigate bludgeoning.
13263:It is a huge task. I am not volunteering. --
13254:User:Ravpapa/The Politicization of Knowledge
7201:Biased non-extendedconfirmed probable-sock B
5933:, there are still questions of how to apply
5639:Somebody tries to get Knowledge to say that
3399:is amended by appending the following text:
1172:Knowledge:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification
17788:WP:Articles for deletion/Bent's Camp Resort
17208:As a point of clarification, I note it was
16360:There is no register of whom is involved --
15054:Remedies that only ArbCom can impose (e.g.
14997:
14941:
14913:
14885:
14366:
12670:deleted the mention of these 15,802 changes
11001:multiple others accuse that editor of lying
8732:(Also, I would appreciate an answer to the
8573:Generally align with a pro-Israeli position
8180:; sock puppets and masters are marked with
7391:was also "discovered" as a sock months ago.
5687:the RS, and then checkuser the other side.
3079:I don't see any contradiction between what
2151:The discussion here refers (at the bottom)
17952:I'll tackle these in the order presented:
17784:Talk:Mamie Lake (Wisconsin)#Merge Proposal
15376:, but it is starting to sound inevitable.
13396:And then we have cat-herders who likes to
13364:Solution: slaughter all the cats (<- I
13198:, etc), damaging Knowledge's credibility.
13033:overwhelming agreement in reliable sources
12595:enticing several editors into responding.
10369:nuking the topic area with mass topic bans
10262:. . it felt like a fairly large number of
10060:than it was the day before the war began.
7781:to an editor? And to have the gall to say
7636:The following discussion has been closed.
7033:subsets of a larger set, but it's a start.
6652:Here are some numbers and some questions.
5167:Statement by Red-tailed hawk (AE referral)
3845:Clauses to which an amendment is requested
3104:Is this a real problem or an edge case? --
1973:Clauses to which an amendment is requested
1215:
1201:
410:
396:
348:Click here to file a request for amendment
17972:link as truly too tenuous to be in scope.
14497:I wholeheartedly endorse the proposal by
11407:What I'm trying to convince ArbCom to do
10244:this is a sprawling case where basically
9078:this contributions table by Billed Mammal
8214:, regarding the prevalence of POV pushing
6401:+1, I would indeed like to see the data.
6373:than it was the day before the war began.
2819:Statement by Red-tailed hawk (Definition)
294:No arbitrator motions are currently open.
139:Currently, no arbitration cases are open.
16438:two years from the date of its passage.
16099:two years from the date of its passage.
13221:Suggestion for Radical Change by Ravpapa
10300:behavior from these battleground editors
8297:was in the article until it was removed.
343:of an arbitration decision or procedure.
302:Requests for clarification and amendment
17429:actually saying that merge discussions
15921:Arab-Israeli conflict contentious topic
15567:Arab-Israeli conflict contentious topic
15157:Support accepting this as a full case.
14106:Without the context, I'm not convinced
13821:tend to gravitate towards the same side
11238:discussing. There are previous cases -
10139:Comments on the motions (TarnishedPath)
8472:that they are biased against Palestine.
7963:12 replies out of 34 by Selfstudier at
7956:15 replies out of 45 by Selfstudier at
7220:subpopulation that is harder to reach.
6561:Here is some "source misrepresentation"
3578:broadly related to a topic, as well as
2709:regarding the exemption for userspace.
14:
18004:
17313:List of Nitty Gritty Dirt Band members
17099:tag to a number of articles including
16241:Tweaked it to add a sunset provision.
14364:by bad-faith editors from both sides.
14132:User:BilledMammal/ARBPIA_RM_statistics
14112:User:BilledMammal/ARBPIA_RM_statistics
12300:heavily-experienced, long-term editors
9833:I want to bring to ArbCom's attention
9251:, that part of BANPOL is just quoting
7381:was "discovered" as a sock months ago.
7119:Selecting 35 fairly prominent articles
2617:General sanctions upon related content
2610:General sanctions upon related content
2318:Or maybe I missed the point entirely.
17770:Szmenderowiecki, your statement that
14124:exception of non-neutral common names
13767:. However, Nishidani is correct that
13441:, but that cat apparently disagreed!
13053:I see the sockpuppetry issue to be a
12633:Participating fully isn't a bad thing
10348:in defense of violation of WP policy.
10110:this article at Jewish News Syndicate
7518:phrase used in the checkuser policy.
7000:getting perceived opponents blocked.
1118:directly to the Arbitration Committee
17365:Yes, I think I agree. It's because "
7949:26 replies out of 59 by Levivich at
7072:doesn't seem to make much difference
5553:26 replies out of 59 by Levivich at
5373:I have read through the analysis by
3568:says about scoping is one sentence (
2606:Definition of the "area of conflict"
2599:Definition of the "area of conflict"
2344:Definition of the "area of conflict"
187:Clarification and Amendment requests
17754:, but it was not added explicitly.
17528:should or shouldn't be merged into
16759:Conduct in deletion-related editing
16683:
16605:
16545:
16416:
16078:
16028:
15870:
15726:
15678:
15529:
15504:
15336:
14087:), so that should be reviewed too.
13769:a wide bias can lead to deprecation
12611:. This is also why I learned that
11398:
10286:combative, actively hostile methods
10252:that AE hasn't been able to resolve
9947:
8844:Because it’s data, not methodology.
6268:1.There is another relevant recent
5085:Information about amendment request
3729:
3003:to the ARBPIA area as described at
2108:Information about amendment request
114:Ongoing problems surrounding Yasuke
34:
16462:Support votes needed for majority
16290:Support votes needed for majority
16123:Support votes needed for majority
15947:Support votes needed for majority
15767:Support votes needed for majority
15597:Support votes needed for majority
14532:Talk:Jerusalem/2013 RfC discussion
13334:the recent Electronic Intifada RfC
12665:list of sockpuppets in that table.
12389:"/their behavior is justified/etc.
12048:right. I was once even accused of
10467:And Huldra thanks indeed for that
10404:even just once, turned the heat up
10296:tendentiousness, bludgeoning, and
9197:Statement by ScottishFinnishRadish
8813:(c) - This is actually similar to
6000:. Allegations of just genocide or
5619:, it was the first admin comment.
3474:Support votes needed for majority
3233:Support votes needed for majority
35:
18028:
17543:Given that the discussion was at
15390:We probably need to hold PIA5. --
13974:I get the sense that the ongoing
12644:It is worth noting that the data
10896:looking at the top 20 editors at
7974:Added 01:28, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
7190:Biased extendedconfirmed editor A
7115:I've tried to look at this by...
6035:Regarding Number57's assessment,
5334:which was imposed on NewImpartial
17425:@Primefac. I don't think anyone
17064:7&6=thirteen's contributions
15555:Motion 1: Appeals only to ArbCom
15011:
14983:
14955:
14927:
14899:
14871:
14858:Motion 1: Appeals only to ArbCom
14536:very lengthy analysis of sources
14467:#Motion 3: Involved participants
13810:to have more heat than light in
13532:others do so rutinely as well,
12587:rebuffed. As a single example,
9153:Motion 1: Appeals only to ArbCom
8478:pro-Knowledge as pro-Palestinian
7126:for each article and talk page.
6879:Being realistic/know your limits
5636:other, or is it just the truth?
5401:simply dominating by pure volume
5171:
2966:
2938:
17356:Statement by INVOLVED Seriality
17176:Nevertheless, I will implement
16259:Motion 3: Involved participants
15010:
14982:
14970:Motion 3: Involved participants
14954:
14926:
14898:
14870:
11564:Statement by AirshipJungleman29
10913:Volume 17, Issue 1 pp. 116-135)
10824:posed by an unfamiliar editor,
10720:of the IP area's POV-stand-off.
10413:the list of 100 new IP articles
10398::I see the only solution being
10145:Motion 3: Involved participants
9255:, it can be changed by Arbcom.
9165:Motion 3: Involved participants
8787:disturb the point want to make
7156:Using evidence-based approaches
7036:Random sample (15000 articles).
6959:Certainly, it's a problem that
6142:talk page RFC for an example)?
5903:Statement by Bluethricecreamman
3416:ArbCom Arab-Israeli enforcement
2965:
2937:
2400:" (my emphasis) So in fact ECR
2396:with the exception of userspace
2385:Arbitration Committee sanctions
17997:12:32, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
17987:20:48, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
17865:21:58, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
17844:15:15, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
17804:04:30, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
17739:, as the article has not been
17709:WP:Deletion policy#Redirection
17675:10:21, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
17514:11:18, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
17492:10:16, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
17399:17:28, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
17293:18:24, 20 September 2024 (UTC)
16729:21:04, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
16715:16:05, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
16688:15:17, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
16670:14:56, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
16656:07:14, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
16641:04:10, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
16627:22:29, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
16610:21:20, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
16578:19:34, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
16550:15:20, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
16532:14:56, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
16518:07:08, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
16509:03:57, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
16421:21:20, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
16392:14:56, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
16379:03:50, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
16365:10:05, 19 September 2024 (UTC)
16356:22:27, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
16341:18:38, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
16251:04:07, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
16237:03:59, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
16206:19:24, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
16192:14:56, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
16179:07:07, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
16170:04:07, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
16083:21:20, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
16046:19:27, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
16033:15:09, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
16016:14:56, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
16003:07:06, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
15994:03:49, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
15898:07:06, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
15889:03:51, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
15875:21:20, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
15846:19:29, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
15832:14:56, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
15818:15:03, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
15731:21:20, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
15697:19:30, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
15683:15:07, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
15665:14:56, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
15652:07:05, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
15643:03:53, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
15549:12:23, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
15534:21:20, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
15479:20:53, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
15356:20:22, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
15341:20:09, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
15323:19:55, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
15297:00:35, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
14791:22:03, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
14771:22:21, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
14756:19:42, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
14738:19:37, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
14720:16:27, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
14700:07:01, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
14668:06:16, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
14648:15:43, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
14618:15:36, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
14587:this request for clarification
14556:15:01, 18 September 2024 (UTC)
14520:12:28, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
14492:13:42, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
14456:12:20, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
14428:11:17, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
14402:20:31, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
14380:01:01, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
14347:13:03, 18 September 2024 (UTC)
14309:22:35, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
14272:20:27, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
14237:Specific views on the motions:
14232:13:39, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
14209:23:13, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
14188:needs to be strictly enforced
14064:
13885:06:18, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
13871:00:50, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
13849:01:07, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
13679:05:53, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
13146:17:23, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
12763:Discord servers are being used
12593:Talk:Zionism#Colonial project?
12528:23:00, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
12453:Also, with all due respect to
12176:. I will openly disclose that
11940:21:33, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
11915:00:28, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
11751:05:37, 18 September 2024 (UTC)
11554:18:26, 18 September 2024 (UTC)
11540:21:56, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
11526:21:45, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
11511:21:52, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
11286:22:02, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
11271:20:02, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
10791:the example where you are said
10218:00:19, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
10191:11:07, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
10165:03:33, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
10134:13:54, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
10015:14:43, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
9979:21:53, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
9952:21:42, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
9930:20:34, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
9906:01:07, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
9891:00:31, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
9873:00:12, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
9421:10:48, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
9403:18:41, 18 September 2024 (UTC)
9376:00:59, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
9359:00:22, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
9342:22:16, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
9192:08:34, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
9180:07:33, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
7958:Talk:Zionism#Colonial project?
7951:Talk:Zionism#Colonial project?
7892:21:40, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
7588:17:01, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
7562:16:44, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
7545:16:15, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
7528:18:29, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
7485:04:34, 18 September 2024 (UTC)
6523:14:22, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
6185:21:45, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
6002:Genocide_of_indigenous_peoples
5931:Genocide of indigenous peoples
5890:16:23, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
5870:More useful motions would be:
5862:16:35, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
5829:05:20, 18 September 2024 (UTC)
5802:20:33, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
5751:20:07, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
5555:Talk:Zionism#Colonial project?
5133:imposition of 0RR restrictions
5096:recent Arbitration Enforcement
3856:recent Arbitration Enforcement
3702:to avoid further confusion. -
3582:that are related to the topic.
3406:ArbCom Arab-Israeli editnotice
3115:extended confirmed restriction
2858:07:14, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
2660:enforcement templates on them.
353:contentious topics restriction
13:
1:
17946:19:40, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
17932:18:29, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
17828:15:47, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
17766:04:34, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
17640:17:20, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
17609:14:02, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
17580:13:15, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
17520:Statement by GhostOfDanGurney
17448:18:56, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
17417:13:10, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
17351:20:43, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
17307:I was also topic-banned from
17265:12:27, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
17234:16:41, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
17203:12:54, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
17027:Does this topic ban include:
16749:05:24, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
15563:contentious topic restriction
15509:19:29, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
14167:16:48, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
14097:09:20, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
14053:22:01, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
13860:"civil" POV pushing behaviors
13806:A contentious topic does not
13663:21:55, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
13628:00:11, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
13617:00:10, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
13114:21:24, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
12713:illustrated this excellently
12678:12:38, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
12387:there is no war in Ba Sing Se
11491:23:48, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
11476:22:58, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
11403:22:50, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
11381:21:38, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
11152:09:59, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
11136:16:37, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
11113:03:52, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
10978:22:43, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
10948:22:07, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
10934:21:01, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
10887:20:09, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
10847:16:23, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
10811:12:38, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
10778:10:15, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
10416:highly personalized grudges.
10264:experienced editors, together
10021:Statement by Theleekycauldron
9859:20:37, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
9827:14:46, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
9805:23:57, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
9790:23:43, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
9775:21:46, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
9628:15:23, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
9314:00:06, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
9299:13:26, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
9143:15:12, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
9122:14:29, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
9104:09:38, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
9091:07:22, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
9072:06:16, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
9054:06:16, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
9036:04:58, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
9015:04:27, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
8979:14:55, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
8864:12:51, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
8853:again encourage you to do so.
8831:08:04, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
8746:04:36, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
8707:22:58, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
8682:22:15, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
8636:16:43, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
8496:15:48, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
8452:14:59, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
8419:14:20, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
8366:14:32, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
8341:14:12, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
8260:05:14, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
7873:14:25, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
7849:11:53, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
7470:14:43, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
7453:13:11, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
7432:04:56, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
7407:03:00, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
7345:16:21, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
7328:15:36, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
7310:11:40, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
7295:08:41, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
7279:10:48, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
7230:02:40, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
7124:at the time the edit was made
6577:21:26, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
6501:16:53, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
6485:14:32, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
6469:12:45, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
5850:2024 Lebanon pager explosions
5697:21:24, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
5131:to multiple individuals, the
3769:16:00, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
2118:Change userspace to talkspace
17776:WP:Merging#Proposing a merge
17614:Statement by Szmenderowiecki
17602:"Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)
17594:"Either merge it or AFD it."
17573:"Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)
17565:"only warning" in March 2023
17182:For what it's worth, I have
13965:current group of AE archives
12907:Statement by Thebiguglyalien
10877:write anything encyclopedic.
10322:: This pivot was due to the
10108:Not sure if anyone has seen
8000:viewpoint is in the majority
7937:ARBPIA discussion statistics
6300:This one as well (PeleYoetz)
5343:I would hesitate to apply a
2487:Statement by Sir Kenneth Kho
331:(you must use this format!)
7:
17870:Statement by {other-editor}
17780:WP:Proposed article mergers
17545:Talk:Mamie Lake (Wisconsin)
17299:Statement by TenPoundHammer
17062:, where editors found that
16513:Worth trying for 2 years --
15919:of restrictions within the
15464:20:36, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
15449:23:26, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
15408:06:48, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
15395:18:08, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
15386:12:35, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
15282:20:25, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
15260:03:33, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
15234:23:26, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
15210:15:21, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
15189:18:27, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
15167:16:41, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
15153:15:14, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
15132:15:07, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
15107:14:40, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
15092:18:39, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
14796:Statement by {other-editor}
14461:Statement by starship.paint
14007:17:39, 31 August 2024 (UTC)
13959:Statement by Jéské Couriano
13951:14:54, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
13927:10:52, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
13738:17:11, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
13723:22:15, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
13710:would clean up discussions.
13648:20:56, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
13547:22:58, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
13501:23:17, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
13482:22:24, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
13451:20:07, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
13388:18:49, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
13348:14:24, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
13327:a recent discussion of +972
13307:14:21, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
13273:05:12, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
13216:01:06, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
13011:23:46, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
12972:22:47, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
12901:19:54, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
12878:16:26, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
12853:22:09, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
12798:11:58, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
12640:02:03, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
12622:11:07, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
12577:05:47, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
12550:23:26, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
12494:23:25, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
12448:23:11, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
12370:18:43, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
12322:18:49, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
12290:00:14, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
12239:22:37, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
12200:22:25, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
12121:23:57, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
12095:00:35, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
12069:00:36, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
12050:being a friend of Nishidani
12043:23:23, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
12017:20:34, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
11991:19:21, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
11968:19:28, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
11890:16:00, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
11847:23:40, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
11814:03:11, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
11782:18:53, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
11677:18:37, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
11649:18:09, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
11602:13:55, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
11584:12:51, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
11366:18:19, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
11351:20:30, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
11336:23:18, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
11326:can be quite unpleasant. --
11309:21:02, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
11256:15:52, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
11233:21:03, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
11217:17:48, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
11197:01:51, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
10752:19:57, 31 August 2024 (UTC)
10730:21:29, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
10706:14:05, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
10672:10:14, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
10652:21:03, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
10593:16:45, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
10571:19:11, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
10552:16:58, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
10517:09:30, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
10481:01:49, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
10463:01:36, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
10445:13:47, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
10426:10:16, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
10371:. This is a WP:BATTLEGROUND
10104:22:28, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
10070:09:58, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
10043:20:10, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
9753:18:39, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
9726:17:08, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
9707:17:02, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
9689:15:24, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
9666:00:07, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
9645:16:27, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
9607:15:29, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
9576:00:02, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
9561:16:45, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
9543:15:34, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
9518:15:09, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
9499:14:45, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
9472:20:09, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
9452:19:55, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
9282:00:03, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
9265:15:15, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
9243:12:29, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
8970:In several places, such as
8955:04:36, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
8933:01:34, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
8912:09:44, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
8901:11:34, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
8204:12:53, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
8148:01:58, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
8123:23:47, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
8101:10:34, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
8052:22:47, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
8020:13:12, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
7992:09:41, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
7826:14:32, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
7811:17:48, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
7795:16:55, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
7771:16:29, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
7757:23:50, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
7737:23:34, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
7718:23:09, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
7693:16:18, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
7658:01:51, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
7619:13:06, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
7175:18:43, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
7151:15:30, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
7084:08:29, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
7063:15:21, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
6982:02:27, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
6923:04:35, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
6874:16:02, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
6630:18:10, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
6615:15:18, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
6547:17:05, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
6452:17:04, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
6429:17:41, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
6411:10:24, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
6385:10:11, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
6356:09:34, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
6338:22:14, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
6320:3.In the interim, avoiding
6316:12:59, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
6294:22:55, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
6258:08:43, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
6224:09:49, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
6152:16:53, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
6134:23:11, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
6075:20:07, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
6054:19:56, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
6029:17:13, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
6014:17:10, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
5992:19:15, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
5977:19:11, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
5959:19:11, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
5924:18:58, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
5629:17:29, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
5601:01:19, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
5573:01:47, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
5542:16:29, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
5523:14:22, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
5459:23:44, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
5417:23:03, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
5395:as pointing at two things:
5369:00:46, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
5327:19:01, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
5294:11:20, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
5267:18:07, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
5249:18:03, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
5226:17:48, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
5200:17:38, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
5161:17:38, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
3801:Palestine-Israel articles 4
3791:17:38, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
3734:21:30, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
3712:01:02, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
3679:00:22, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
3634:19:38, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
3620:19:29, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
3544:07:05, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
3519:20:35, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
3445:Palestine-Israel articles 4
3382:Palestine-Israel articles 4
3360:19:35, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
3346:19:29, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
3315:14:17, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
3285:07:03, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
3188:18:29, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
3153:01:43, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
2863:Statement by {other-editor}
2838:18:26, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
2583:23:24, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
1934:Palestine-Israel articles 4
1190:Clarification and Amendment
385:Clarification and Amendment
10:
18033:
17701:WP:Deletion policy#Merging
17386:broad an interpretation).
12591:made about 48 comments on
11659:-pushing themselves while
10859:(b) and the effect of the
10081:Statement by TarnishedPath
9711:Selfstudier: I agree that
8734:question I asked you above
8169:ARBPIA activity statistics
7355:This statement is false.
6583:Statement by IOHANNVSVERVS
5876:A source restriction like
5501:, which arbcom cannot do.
5488:that contradict each other
5399:in replies to others, and
3098:18:30, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
2814:18:06, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
2800:12:24, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
2780:02:24, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
2593:My understanding is that"
2280:17:40, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
1891:
1186:
1086:
381:
36:
17904:content should live, not
17249:so the record is clear.
16754:Case or decision affected
15571:community review standard
14705:Statement by Coretheapple
14673:Statement by Super Goku V
14469:as originally written by
14172:Statement by Figureofnine
14120:neutrally naming articles
13765:WP:NPOV § Bias in sources
13746:Statement by berchanhimez
13323:the recent Al-Jazeera RfC
12719:add more fuel to the fire
11077:User:The Mountain of Eden
10911:Media, War & Conflict
10288:of those they look up to.
9407:Motion 4 needs to define
9227:, who came up with this.)
7897:Statement by BilledMammal
7785:are making things toxic?
7251:They made a lot of edits.
7101:Can we see this effect?
6588:Statement by Sean.hoyland
5809:'s comment that there is
5681:last 1000 mainspace edits
3796:Case or decision affected
3694:I would support amending
3109:18:52, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
3075:02:30, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
3061:11:18, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
3044:RMs are not edit requests
3022:RMs are not edit requests
2843:Statement by Super Goku V
2756:07:29, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
2729:07:26, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
2696:07:16, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
2564:16:50, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
2482:12:51, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
2464:Statement by Sean.hoyland
2459:04:37, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
2448:12:25, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
2429:11:54, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
2356:02:43, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
2323:15:14, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
2299:14:58, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
2249:17:55, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
2228:12:10, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
2194:10:42, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
2177:08:43, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
1929:Case or decision affected
1924:13:43, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
1104:This is not a discussion.
308:Use this page to request
204:
201:
198:
195:
163:
160:
106:
103:
100:
97:
17809:Statement by Newyorkbrad
17717:Alternatives to deletion
17715:) are subsections under
17590:Talk:"Weird Al" Yankovic
16684:Penny for your thoughts?
16606:Penny for your thoughts?
16546:Penny for your thoughts?
16417:Penny for your thoughts?
16079:Penny for your thoughts?
16029:Penny for your thoughts?
15871:Penny for your thoughts?
15727:Penny for your thoughts?
15679:Penny for your thoughts?
15530:Penny for your thoughts?
15505:Penny for your thoughts?
15337:Penny for your thoughts?
14526:Statement by Vice_regent
14136:perspective is expressed
14102:Statement by Hydrangeans
13983:matter to this, akin to
13932:Statement by Doug Weller
13908:, seemingly criticising
12986:are recognized as essays
12859:Statement by LokiTheLiar
12392:Does that mean that the
11399:Penny for your thoughts?
11083:(63%) low editaccount;
10962:administrative detention
10258:the editing environment
9948:Penny for your thoughts?
8271:As I said on that page:
7779:your atrocious behaviour
7639:Please do not modify it.
7593:Statement by Iskandar323
7160:I would like to commend
6264:Statement by Selfstudier
5397:overly repeating oneself
4749:Referring administrators
3869:Involved AE participants
3730:Penny for your thoughts?
2785:Statement by Doug Weller
2631:(that is, not articles).
2125:Statement by Selfstudier
17778:(information page) and
17690:) and content removal (
17549:Talk:Bent's Camp Resort
17164:WP:DELETION DISCUSSIONS
17162:2-year-old topic bans (
17156:not justified or needed
14583:this lengthy discussion
14561:Comment on motions (VR)
14140:highest quality sources
13278:Statement by Black Kite
13119:ago, Arbcom reaffirmed
12738:expressly stating this
12652:show conclusively that
12582:Statement by SashiRolls
12412:got themselves TBANned.
12406:in this very discussion
11756:Statement by Swatjester
11292:Statement by Tryptofish
11075:(56%, NoCal100 sock);
11063:(76%, low edit count);
10822:I had a note on my page
9148:Comments on the motions
9076:Some quick comments on
8222:single purpose accounts
7598:Statement by Dan Murphy
5580:the first admin comment
5436:'s relevant part (i.e.
17530:Mamie Lake (Wisconsin)
17475:
17401:
17053:this Amendment request
16427:Motion 4: Enforced BRD
16089:Motion 2c: Word limits
15908:Motion 2b: Word limits
15737:Motion 2a: Word limits
14998:Motion 4: Enforced BRD
14942:Motion 2c: Word limits
14914:Motion 2b: Word limits
14886:Motion 2a: Word limits
14602:X recent event article
13825:control the topic area
13689:Statement by Shushugah
13669:lol. But not really.
13042:Encouraging people to
12817:History repeats itself
12705:, particularly of the
12686:Statement by Domedtrix
11946:Statement by Number 57
11608:Statement by Aquillion
11202:Statement by Vanamonde
11162:Statement by DMH223344
11067:(89% low edit count);
11059:(43% low edit count);
11047:(70%, low edit count);
11037:User:Personisinsterest
11009:
10956:
10902:
10638:
10608:
10224:Statement by Nishidani
10076:Statement by PeleYoetz
9847:this ongoing AE report
9427:Statement by Barkeep49
9171:Motion 4: Enforced BRD
9159:Motion 2a: Word limits
8726:
8299:
8277:
7211:, to revert the edits.
3392:, broadly interpreted.
2589:Statement by Callanecc
2285:Statement by Barkeep49
146:Recently closed cases
18012:Knowledge arbitration
17792:the editor spam AfDs
17725:(guideline, shortcut
17681:Statement by Flatscan
17551:, I do think there's
17466:
17363:
17215:argumentum ad hominem
17120:User:7&6=thirteen
16592:Arbitrator discussion
16403:Arbitrator discussion
16222:Arbitrator discussion
16065:Arbitrator discussion
15893:That is reasonable --
15857:Arbitrator discussion
15713:Arbitrator discussion
15424:has not edited since.
15311:in that AE discussion
15060:ScottishFinnishRadish
14743:Supreme Deliciousness
14690:suggestions, etc. --
14660:Supreme Deliciousness
14433:Statement by Springee
14352:Statement by Amayorov
13795:discussion - through
13372:support this option!)
13312:Statement by Rosguill
13169:long list of scholars
13151:Statement by xDanielx
12707:Righting Great Wrongs
12534:Statement by Zanahary
11594:~~ AirshipJungleman29
11576:~~ AirshipJungleman29
11170:Statement by M.Bitton
11043:(39% banned from IP);
10996:
10952:
10894:
10619:
10604:
9879:ScottishFinnishRadish
9413:ScottishFinnishRadish
9395:ScottishFinnishRadish
9368:ScottishFinnishRadish
9351:ScottishFinnishRadish
9334:ScottishFinnishRadish
9306:ScottishFinnishRadish
9291:ScottishFinnishRadish
9274:ScottishFinnishRadish
9257:ScottishFinnishRadish
9253:Arbitration procedure
9235:ScottishFinnishRadish
8870:Statement by Zero0000
8722:
8288:
8272:
7624:Statement by Nableezy
6193:Statement by ABHammad
5840:is easily dispelled.
5465:Statement by Levivich
5441:request for amendment
5044:ScottishFinnishRadish
4810:ScottishFinnishRadish
3555:Arbitrator discussion
3390:Arab-Israeli conflict
3296:Arbitrator discussion
2304:Statement by Zero0000
367:Arbitration CA notice
57:Arbitration Committee
18:Knowledge:Arbitration
15242:Historical elections
14370:Here’s one example.
13893:Statement by Amakuru
13561:User:Thebiguglyalien
12750:for political ends.
12555:Statement by Ravpapa
12137:Statement by The Kip
11073:User:Kentucky Rain24
10143:To me it seems that
7967:were to sock puppets
7960:were to sock puppets
7953:were to sock puppets
7139:Here are the results
7041:Here are the results
6930:, regarding socks,
6647:This is a small part
6505:10: Enforced BRD or
6140:Herrenvolk_democracy
5129:issuance of warnings
4806:(referral initiator)
3584:) and one footnote (
3580:parts of other pages
3301:I hope this matches
2997:"all of these pages"
171:Historical elections
17060:this ANI discussion
16967:Statement by Cunard
16455:
16283:
16116:
15940:
15862:Proposed. Per SFR.
15760:
15718:Proposed. Per SFR.
15590:
15416:enforcement request
14116:using a common name
13856:immune to sanctions
13584:. If that isn't a
13412:he would have felt.
13356:Statement by Huldra
13178:Another example is
12703:tendentious editing
11795:metaphors, thanks.
11175:Statement by Buidhe
11031:(53% permabanned);
11003:about the evidence.
10898:activity statistics
10857:Cromwell's conquest
10280::a large number of
10260:disturbingly toxic,
10246:all of the regulars
8693:You misunderstand;
8505:activity statistics
8218:Activity statistics
6635:A plea for humility
6528:Statement by fiveby
6419:. Just so we know.
5559:26 replies were to
3467:
3411:editnotice and the
3226:
18017:Knowledge requests
17688:WP:Deletion policy
17592:in which they say
17586:this given example
17534:Bent's Camp Resort
17526:Bent's Camp Resort
17247:Related discussion
16450:
16278:
16111:
15935:
15755:
15585:
15414:There has been an
13634:Statement by Arkon
13319:the recent ADL RfC
13182:. If that isn't a
12831:. The rationale? "
12147:AirshipJungleman29
11079:(low edit count);
11071:, low edit count;
10830:Monochrome Monitor
10431:Billed Mammal. Re
10278:AirshipJungleman29
10248:in the topic area
10112:which states that
9917:Jeske's suggestion
8538:CarmenEsparzaAmoux
7914:Stealth canvassing
7680:AirshipJungleman29
7352:- Thebiguglyalien
6328:would be as well.
6322:this sort of thing
6177:Bluethricecreamman
6166:Bluethricecreamman
6144:Bluethricecreamman
6126:Bluethricecreamman
6067:Bluethricecreamman
6046:Bluethricecreamman
6021:Bluethricecreamman
6019:be wonderful too.
6006:Bluethricecreamman
5984:Bluethricecreamman
5969:Bluethricecreamman
5951:Bluethricecreamman
5916:Bluethricecreamman
5898:Statement by האופה
5836:'s statement that
5677:last 1000 contribs
5137:select individuals
4989:Bluethricecreamman
3973:Bluethricecreamman
3462:
3221:
3033:contentious topics
2734:Premeditated Chaos
2545:nicely pointed to
288:Arbitrator motions
121:16 September 2024
17850:Statement by Izno
17731:If other editors
17692:WP:Editing policy
17210:SerialNumber54129
16793:
16762:arbitration case
16490:
16489:
16318:
16317:
16151:
16150:
15975:
15974:
15822:In favour of 2c.
15795:
15794:
15625:
15624:
15244:Proposed decision
15074:
15024:
15023:
14776:Statement by Izno
14593:, which leads to
14408:A naive proposal:
14345:
14307:
14278:Biased by default
14270:
14230:
14207:
14079:Statement by RAN1
13773:civil POV pushing
13304:Black Kite (talk)
13037:confirmation bias
12748:Knowledge's voice
12525:
12491:
12445:
12367:
12319:
12287:
12258:civil POV-pushing
12236:
12197:
11938:
11913:
11888:
11845:
11812:
11780:
11448:Focus on conduct.
11445:Focus on conduct.
11442:Focus on conduct.
11144:Personisinsterest
11124:Confirmation bias
11091:(57% few edits);
11045:User:Mistamystery
10634:978-0-241-00443-2
10577:User:Sean.hoyland
10540:Irvin Leigh Matus
10433:this set of diffs
9130:
9023:
9004:Kfar Aza massacre
8986:
8963:
8942:
8920:
8893:There is a reason
8611:
8610:
7975:
7879:
7878:
7858:that Iskandar323
7269:
7248:There were a lot.
6863:
6862:
6304:related AE thread
6270:related AE thread
6204:Israeli apartheid
3838:related AE thread
3835:
3804:arbitration case
3751:
3661:
3602:
3572:broadly construed
3530:Per my reasoning
3502:
3501:
3328:
3261:
3260:
3170:
3135:
3038:Edit requests in
3016:Edit requests in
2979:
2978:
2705:: See discussion
2436:
2363:
2331:
1968:
1937:arbitration case
1905:
1904:
1887:
1886:
1100:
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277:8 September 2024
267:
180:
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26:(Redirected from
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17917:
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17782:(process page),
17607:
17603:
17578:
17574:
17562:
17458:
17348:
17346:Ten Pound Hammer
17327:
17321:
17291:
17281:7&6=thirteen
17263:
17253:7&6=thirteen
17238:Meanwhile, they
17232:
17222:7&6=thirteen
17201:
17191:7&6=thirteen
17098:
17092:
17047:tags to articles
17046:
17040:
16982:7&6=thirteen
16956:7&6=thirteen
16945:
16918:deleted contribs
16897:
16870:deleted contribs
16853:7&6=thirteen
16848:
16821:deleted contribs
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15984:been a problem.
15941:
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15591:
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15561:When imposing a
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13993:The Omnibus Case
13976:Israel-Hamas war
13945:
13422:57 has in mind,
13368:cats, and would
13283:probably go all
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12823:is confirmed by
12821:contentious move
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11097:User:Izzy Borden
11095:low edit count;
11093:User:Onlineone22
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10861:the great famine
10795:User:Izzy Borden
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6364:Theleekycauldron
5842:Israel–Hamas war
5675:. Look at their
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14044:Jéské Couriano
13998:Jéské Couriano
13969:Re'im massacre
13963:Looking at my
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13375:Problem solved
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11069:User:Wagtail66
11041:User:Dovidroth
11025:User:Marokwitz
10995:
10994:
10987:
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10984:
10983:
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10966:Khalida Jarrar
10957:
10914:
10903:
10892:
10891:Billed Mammal.
10889:
10850:
10849:
10813:
10780:
10754:
10739:Jéské Couriano
10733:
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10709:
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9988:Starship.paint
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9967:Jéské Couriano
9913:
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8081:Al Jazeera RFC
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5947:WP:NOCONSENSUS
5935:WP:NOCONSENSUS
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5645:West Jerusalem
5641:East Jerusalem
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5389:WP:ARBBLUDGEON
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3083:says and what
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1989:
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72:
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65:recent changes
61:
55:
54:
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50:
42:
37:
15:
9:
6:
4:
3:
2:
18029:
18018:
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17563:gave them an
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16741:
16730:
16727:
16724:
16723:
16718:
16716:
16713:
16710:
16709:
16704:
16703:TarnishedPath
16701:
16689:
16686:
16680:
16679:
16673:
16672:
16671:
16667:
16663:
16659:
16658:
16657:
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15989:
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15707:
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15675:
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15638:
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15612:
15609:
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15604:
15601:
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15588:
15578:
15577:
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15568:
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15511:
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15480:
15477:
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15467:
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15409:
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15389:
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15299:
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15211:
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15089:
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15043:
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15026:
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15007:
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14999:
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14989:
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14923:
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14917:
14915:
14912:
14911:
14908:
14905:
14895:
14892:
14889:
14887:
14884:
14883:
14880:
14877:
14867:
14864:
14861:
14859:
14856:
14855:
14851:
14848:
14845:
14842:
14839:
14836:
14833:
14832:
14829:
14827:
14816:
14815:
14812:
14809:
14808:
14802:
14793:
14792:
14788:
14784:
14773:
14772:
14768:
14764:
14758:
14757:
14753:
14749:
14744:
14740:
14739:
14735:
14731:
14726:
14722:
14721:
14717:
14713:
14702:
14701:
14697:
14693:
14688:
14686:
14682:
14670:
14669:
14665:
14661:
14650:
14649:
14644:
14639:
14638:
14633:
14629:
14622:
14621:
14620:
14619:
14614:
14609:
14608:
14604:for 30 days).
14603:
14598:
14596:
14592:
14588:
14584:
14580:
14576:
14572:
14565:
14564:
14558:
14557:
14552:
14547:
14546:
14541:
14537:
14533:
14521:
14518:
14516:
14512:
14507:
14500:
14496:
14495:
14494:
14493:
14490:
14488:
14484:
14479:
14472:
14468:
14458:
14457:
14453:
14449:
14443:
14440:
14439:Gaza Genocide
14430:
14429:
14425:
14421:
14415:
14413:
14409:
14403:
14399:
14395:
14392:
14388:
14384:
14383:
14382:
14381:
14377:
14373:
14363:
14362:WP:CANVASSing
14359:
14358:WP:TAGTEAMing
14349:
14348:
14343:
14339:
14334:
14329:
14324:
14319:
14315:
14311:
14310:
14305:
14301:
14296:
14290:
14288:
14283:
14279:
14273:
14268:
14264:
14259:
14255:
14254:
14253:
14250:
14246:
14242:
14236:
14235:
14234:
14233:
14228:
14224:
14219:
14215:
14211:
14210:
14205:
14201:
14196:
14191:
14187:
14182:
14179:
14169:
14168:
14164:
14160:
14156:
14152:
14147:
14145:
14144:false balance
14141:
14137:
14133:
14130:. Looking at
14129:
14125:
14121:
14117:
14113:
14109:
14099:
14098:
14094:
14090:
14086:
14067:
14063:
14060:
14054:
14051:
14046:
14045:
14040:
14037:
14034:
14031:
14028:
14025:
14022:
14016:
14011:
14010:
14009:
14008:
14005:
14000:
13999:
13994:
13990:
13986:
13982:
13977:
13972:
13970:
13966:
13956:
13953:
13952:
13949:
13946:
13939:
13929:
13928:
13924:
13920:
13915:
13914:Gaza genocide
13911:
13907:
13902:
13900:
13886:
13883:
13879:
13874:
13873:
13872:
13869:
13865:
13861:
13857:
13852:
13850:
13847:
13843:
13838:
13837:
13836:
13832:
13830:
13826:
13822:
13817:
13816:wide reaching
13813:
13809:
13804:
13802:
13798:
13794:
13790:
13786:
13782:
13776:
13774:
13770:
13766:
13762:
13758:
13753:
13739:
13735:
13731:
13726:
13725:
13724:
13720:
13716:
13712:
13709:
13704:
13700:
13697:
13693:
13692:
13680:
13676:
13672:
13668:
13667:
13666:
13665:
13664:
13660:
13656:
13652:
13651:
13650:
13649:
13645:
13641:
13629:
13626:
13622:
13621:
13618:
13614:
13610:
13606:
13603:
13599:
13596:
13591:
13587:
13583:
13582:Gaza genocide
13579:
13578:User:xDanielx
13576:
13575:
13569:
13568:
13567:
13566:
13562:
13559:
13558:
13557:
13548:
13544:
13540:
13536:
13534:
13531:
13527:
13524:
13523:Knowledge:RD3
13520:
13519:Knowledge:RD2
13515:
13511:
13508:
13507:
13506:
13505:
13502:
13498:
13494:
13490:
13485:
13483:
13479:
13475:
13471:
13469:
13466:
13463:
13460:
13457:
13454:
13452:
13448:
13444:
13440:
13436:
13432:
13429:
13424:
13420:
13419:
13418:
13417:
13410:
13407:
13402:
13399:
13398:play as a cat
13395:
13394:
13393:
13392:
13389:
13385:
13381:
13377:
13374:
13371:
13367:
13363:
13360:
13359:
13353:
13350:
13349:
13346:
13345:
13344:
13335:
13331:
13328:
13324:
13320:
13309:
13308:
13305:
13296:
13293:
13290:
13289:
13288:
13286:
13275:
13274:
13270:
13266:
13261:
13257:
13255:
13246:
13245:
13241:
13240:
13236:
13235:
13234:
13231:
13227:
13218:
13217:
13212:
13207:
13199:
13197:
13194:
13191:
13188:
13185:
13181:
13180:Gaza genocide
13176:
13174:
13170:
13165:
13160:
13158:
13148:
13147:
13143:
13137:
13122:
13116:
13115:
13111:
13105:
13090:
13082:
13079:
13076:
13073:
13070:
13067:
13064:
13060:
13059:
13058:
13056:
13051:
13049:
13045:
13040:
13038:
13034:
13028:
13024:
13021:
13017:
13013:
13012:
13008:
13002:
12987:
12983:
12979:
12974:
12973:
12969:
12963:
12944:
12941:
12938:
12935:
12934:
12933:
12930:
12926:
12922:
12917:
12913:
12902:
12898:
12894:
12890:
12886:
12882:
12881:
12880:
12879:
12875:
12871:
12865:
12854:
12850:
12846:
12840:
12834:
12828:
12822:
12818:
12815:
12813:
12807:
12802:
12801:
12800:
12799:
12795:
12791:
12787:
12783:
12779:
12775:
12770:
12768:
12764:
12759:
12756:
12751:
12749:
12745:
12741:
12737:
12732:
12731:Wikilawyering
12727:
12722:
12720:
12716:
12712:
12708:
12704:
12700:
12696:
12691:
12679:
12676:
12671:
12664:
12658:
12655:
12651:
12647:
12643:
12642:
12641:
12638:
12630:
12626:
12625:
12624:
12623:
12620:
12616:
12615:
12610:
12609:
12603:
12601:
12596:
12594:
12590:
12579:
12578:
12574:
12570:
12564:
12560:
12552:
12551:
12545:
12529:
12522:
12520:
12515:
12513:
12505:
12499:
12498:
12495:
12488:
12486:
12481:
12479:
12473:
12468:
12464:
12458:
12452:
12451:
12450:
12449:
12442:
12440:
12435:
12433:
12427:
12423:
12419:
12411:
12407:
12403:
12402:case in point
12399:
12395:
12391:
12388:
12384:
12380:
12379:
12378:
12371:
12364:
12362:
12357:
12355:
12349:
12345:
12342:
12340:
12339:
12338:participants.
12334:
12333:
12329:
12328:
12323:
12316:
12314:
12309:
12307:
12301:
12297:
12293:
12292:
12291:
12284:
12282:
12277:
12275:
12268:
12267:
12263:
12259:
12254:
12250:
12246:
12242:
12240:
12233:
12231:
12226:
12224:
12216:
12210:
12206:
12205:
12204:
12203:
12202:
12201:
12194:
12192:
12187:
12185:
12179:
12175:
12170:
12168:
12164:
12160:
12156:
12152:
12148:
12144:
12122:
12119:
12114:
12109:
12103:
12098:
12097:
12096:
12093:
12088:
12083:
12076:
12072:
12071:
12070:
12067:
12062:
12057:
12051:
12046:
12045:
12044:
12041:
12036:
12031:
12025:
12020:
12019:
12018:
12015:
12010:
12005:
11998:
11994:
11993:
11992:
11989:
11984:
11979:
11972:
11971:
11970:
11969:
11966:
11961:
11956:
11941:
11936:
11926:
11919:
11918:
11917:
11916:
11911:
11901:
11891:
11886:
11876:
11870:
11866:
11859:
11854:
11848:
11843:
11833:
11824:
11819:
11818:
11817:
11816:
11815:
11810:
11800:
11791:
11786:
11785:
11784:
11783:
11778:
11768:
11762:
11753:
11752:
11748:
11744:
11740:
11732:
11728:
11723:
11722:
11717:
11716:
11711:
11707:
11703:
11702:
11698:
11697:
11696:
11694:
11690:
11686:
11678:
11674:
11670:
11666:
11662:
11658:
11653:
11652:
11651:
11650:
11646:
11642:
11638:
11634:
11629:
11624:
11620:
11616:
11603:
11599:
11595:
11591:
11588:
11587:
11586:
11585:
11581:
11577:
11572:
11555:
11551:
11547:
11543:
11542:
11541:
11537:
11533:
11529:
11527:
11523:
11519:
11514:
11512:
11508:
11504:
11500:
11492:
11488:
11484:
11479:
11478:
11477:
11473:
11469:
11464:
11461:
11456:
11455:
11452:
11447:
11444:
11441:
11440:
11437:
11433:
11430:
11425:
11421:
11418:
11414:
11410:
11406:
11405:
11404:
11401:
11395:
11394:
11388:
11384:
11383:
11382:
11378:
11374:
11369:
11367:
11363:
11359:
11354:
11352:
11348:
11344:
11339:
11338:
11337:
11333:
11329:
11325:
11321:
11317:
11313:
11312:
11311:
11310:
11306:
11302:
11298:
11287:
11283:
11279:
11274:
11272:
11268:
11264:
11259:
11257:
11253:
11249:
11245:
11241:
11236:
11234:
11230:
11226:
11221:
11220:
11219:
11218:
11214:
11210:
11199:
11198:
11195:
11194:
11187:
11183:
11167:
11153:
11149:
11145:
11141:
11140:
11139:
11138:
11137:
11133:
11129:
11125:
11121:
11117:
11116:
11115:
11114:
11110:
11106:
11102:
11098:
11094:
11090:
11086:
11085:User:Bolter21
11082:
11078:
11074:
11070:
11066:
11065:User:טבעת-זרם
11062:
11058:
11054:
11050:
11049:User:XDanielx
11046:
11042:
11038:
11034:
11030:
11026:
11020:
11016:
11012:
11008:
11007:
11004:
11002:
10993:
10989:
10988:
10979:
10975:
10971:
10967:
10963:
10958:
10955:
10951:
10950:
10949:
10945:
10941:
10937:
10936:
10935:
10931:
10927:
10923:
10919:
10915:
10912:
10909:
10904:
10901:
10899:
10893:
10890:
10888:
10884:
10880:
10875:
10871:
10867:
10862:
10858:
10854:
10853:
10852:
10851:
10848:
10844:
10840:
10835:
10831:
10827:
10823:
10819:
10814:
10812:
10808:
10804:
10800:
10796:
10792:
10788:
10784:
10781:
10779:
10775:
10771:
10766:
10762:
10759:BilledMammal
10758:
10755:
10753:
10749:
10745:
10741:
10740:
10735:
10734:
10731:
10727:
10723:
10719:
10715:
10711:
10710:
10707:
10703:
10699:
10696:
10695:Finally, this
10693:
10692:
10673:
10669:
10665:
10660:
10655:
10654:
10653:
10649:
10645:
10640:
10637:
10635:
10632:
10628:
10624:
10618:
10614:
10610:
10607:
10603:
10600:
10596:
10595:
10594:
10590:
10586:
10582:
10578:
10574:
10573:
10572:
10568:
10564:
10559:
10555:
10554:
10553:
10549:
10545:
10541:
10537:
10536:Joseph's Tomb
10533:
10529:
10524:
10520:
10519:
10518:
10514:
10510:
10506:
10503:
10501:
10498:
10495:
10491:
10487:
10484:
10483:
10482:
10478:
10474:
10470:
10466:
10465:
10464:
10460:
10456:
10452:
10448:
10447:
10446:
10442:
10438:
10434:
10430:
10429:
10428:
10427:
10423:
10419:
10414:
10405:
10401:
10397:
10394:
10391:
10387:
10384:
10380:
10376:
10373:
10370:
10365:
10361:
10357:
10353:
10350:
10347:
10343:
10339:
10336:
10334:
10329:
10325:
10321:
10318:
10315:
10311:
10308:: there is a
10307:
10304:
10301:
10299:
10293:
10290:
10287:
10283:
10279:
10276:
10273:
10272:See this note
10269:
10265:
10261:
10257:
10254:
10251:
10247:
10243:
10240:
10239:
10238:
10236:
10235:Occam's razor
10231:
10230:behaviourally
10219:
10216:
10215:
10214:
10211:
10208:
10205:
10199:
10195:
10194:
10193:
10192:
10189:
10188:
10187:
10184:
10181:
10178:
10172:
10167:
10166:
10163:
10162:
10161:
10158:
10155:
10152:
10146:
10136:
10135:
10132:
10131:
10130:
10127:
10124:
10121:
10115:
10111:
10106:
10105:
10102:
10101:
10100:
10097:
10094:
10091:
10071:
10067:
10063:
10057:
10052:
10047:
10046:
10045:
10044:
10040:
10036:
10029:
10016:
10012:
10008:
10004:
9997:
9989:
9984:
9980:
9976:
9972:
9968:
9964:
9959:
9955:
9954:
9953:
9950:
9944:
9943:
9938:
9934:
9933:
9932:
9931:
9927:
9923:
9918:
9907:
9903:
9899:
9894:
9893:
9892:
9888:
9884:
9880:
9876:
9875:
9874:
9870:
9866:
9862:
9860:
9856:
9852:
9848:
9844:
9840:
9836:
9832:
9828:
9824:
9820:
9813:
9808:
9806:
9802:
9798:
9793:
9792:
9791:
9787:
9783:
9778:
9776:
9772:
9768:
9764:
9760:
9754:
9750:
9746:
9742:
9738:
9733:
9729:
9728:
9727:
9723:
9719:
9714:
9710:
9708:
9704:
9700:
9696:
9692:
9690:
9686:
9682:
9677:
9673:
9669:
9668:
9667:
9663:
9659:
9654:
9653:
9648:
9646:
9642:
9638:
9633:
9629:
9625:
9621:
9615:
9610:
9609:
9608:
9604:
9600:
9596:
9592:
9587:
9577:
9573:
9569:
9564:
9563:
9562:
9558:
9554:
9550:
9546:
9545:
9544:
9540:
9536:
9531:
9530:
9525:
9521:
9520:
9519:
9515:
9511:
9506:
9502:
9501:
9500:
9496:
9492:
9487:
9483:
9479:
9475:
9473:
9469:
9465:
9461:
9456:
9455:
9454:
9453:
9449:
9445:
9441:
9437:
9436:
9422:
9418:
9414:
9410:
9406:
9404:
9400:
9396:
9392:
9388:
9384:
9381:
9377:
9373:
9369:
9365:
9362:
9361:
9360:
9356:
9352:
9348:
9345:
9343:
9339:
9335:
9330:
9327:
9324:
9320:
9317:
9315:
9311:
9307:
9302:
9300:
9296:
9292:
9288:
9285:
9283:
9279:
9275:
9271:
9268:
9266:
9262:
9258:
9254:
9250:
9247:
9246:
9245:
9244:
9240:
9236:
9226:
9220:
9215:
9211:
9210:
9209:
9206:
9204:
9194:
9193:
9190:
9186:
9182:
9181:
9178:
9174:
9172:
9168:
9166:
9162:
9160:
9156:
9154:
9145:
9144:
9141:
9134:
9123:
9120:
9113:
9108:
9107:
9106:
9105:
9102:
9098:
9093:
9092:
9089:
9079:
9074:
9073:
9070:
9066:
9065:Ephraim Karsh
9062:
9056:
9055:
9052:
9048:
9044:
9037:
9034:
9027:
9019:
9018:
9017:
9016:
9013:
9009:
9005:
9001:
8996:
8990:
8981:
8980:
8977:
8973:
8967:
8956:
8953:
8946:
8938:
8937:
8934:
8931:
8924:
8916:
8915:
8914:
8913:
8910:
8902:
8899:
8894:
8891:
8888:
8884:
8881:
8877:
8876:
8875:
8865:
8861:
8857:
8854:
8850:
8846:
8841:
8836:
8832:
8828:
8824:
8820:
8816:
8812:
8810:
8806:
8802:
8799:
8795:
8792:
8788:
8784:
8781:
8777:
8773:
8769:
8765:
8762:
8758:
8754:
8749:
8748:
8747:
8743:
8739:
8735:
8731:
8728:
8725:
8717:
8712:
8708:
8704:
8700:
8696:
8690:
8685:
8684:
8683:
8679:
8675:
8671:
8667:
8663:
8660:
8656:
8650:
8646:
8641:
8637:
8633:
8629:
8624:
8620:
8616:
8615:
8614:
8613:
8604:
8601:
8598:
8595:
8592:
8591:
8590:
8588:
8581:
8578:
8577:
8576:
8574:
8568:IOHANNVSVERVS
8567:
8564:
8561:
8558:
8555:
8552:
8549:
8546:
8543:
8540:
8537:
8534:
8531:
8530:
8529:
8527:
8523:
8522:
8516:
8515:
8506:
8502:
8499:
8498:
8497:
8493:
8489:
8484:
8479:
8475:
8473:
8469:
8466:
8460:
8455:
8453:
8449:
8445:
8441:
8438:
8431:
8426:
8420:
8416:
8412:
8406:
8403:
8400:
8396:
8391:
8388:
8385:
8381:
8376:
8371:
8367:
8363:
8359:
8349:
8344:
8343:
8342:
8338:
8334:
8330:
8326:
8321:
8316:
8311:
8304:
8301:
8298:
8296:
8292:
8286:
8283:
8279:
8276:
8268:
8263:
8262:
8261:
8257:
8253:
8250:
8240:
8235:
8230:
8225:
8224:
8223:
8219:
8216:
8213:
8212:RM statistics
8210:
8209:
8207:
8206:
8205:
8201:
8197:
8191:
8186:
8183:
8179:
8173:
8170:
8166:
8160:
8155:
8149:
8145:
8141:
8137:
8131:
8126:
8125:
8124:
8120:
8116:
8109:
8104:
8103:
8102:
8098:
8094:
8090:
8086:
8082:
8078:
8076:
8072:
8068:
8067:
8065:
8060:
8055:
8053:
8049:
8045:
8040:
8037:
8034:
8028:
8023:
8021:
8017:
8013:
8008:
8005:
8004:WP:COMMONNAME
8001:
7996:
7995:
7994:
7993:
7989:
7985:
7971:
7966:
7962:
7959:
7955:
7952:
7948:
7947:
7945:
7944:
7942:
7938:
7934:
7933:
7931:
7926:
7923:
7922:fourth pillar
7919:
7918:
7916:
7913:
7907:
7906:
7904:
7903:
7902:
7894:
7893:
7889:
7888:
7875:
7874:
7870:
7869:
7861:
7857:
7851:
7850:
7846:
7845:
7838:
7833:
7828:
7827:
7823:
7822:
7813:
7812:
7808:
7807:
7796:
7792:
7791:
7784:
7780:
7776:
7772:
7768:
7767:
7760:
7759:
7758:
7754:
7753:
7746:
7742:
7738:
7734:
7733:
7725:
7721:
7720:
7719:
7715:
7714:
7706:
7702:
7697:
7695:
7694:
7690:
7689:
7681:
7675:
7671:
7667:
7662:
7661:
7660:
7659:
7655:
7654:
7645:
7644:
7640:
7635:
7634:
7630:
7629:
7621:
7620:
7616:
7612:
7607:
7605:
7590:
7589:
7585:
7581:
7577:
7573:
7569:
7568:
7564:
7563:
7559:
7555:
7551:
7547:
7546:
7542:
7538:
7534:
7530:
7529:
7525:
7521:
7511:
7508:
7507:
7505:
7502:
7501:
7500:
7496:
7492:
7491:
7487:
7486:
7482:
7478:
7472:
7471:
7467:
7463:
7459:
7455:
7454:
7450:
7446:
7442:
7438:
7434:
7433:
7429:
7425:
7419:
7415:
7408:
7404:
7400:
7395:
7390:
7386:
7383:
7380:
7376:
7373:
7371:
7368:
7367:
7365:
7361:
7358:
7357:
7356:
7353:
7351:
7347:
7346:
7342:
7338:
7334:
7330:
7329:
7325:
7321:
7316:
7312:
7311:
7307:
7303:
7297:
7296:
7292:
7288:
7280:
7276:
7272:
7265:
7264:
7263:
7262:
7253:
7250:
7247:
7246:
7243:
7242:
7241:
7237:
7236:
7232:
7231:
7227:
7223:
7217:
7210:
7206:
7202:
7198:
7195:
7191:
7187:
7186:
7185:
7182:
7181:
7177:
7176:
7172:
7168:
7163:
7158:
7157:
7153:
7152:
7148:
7144:
7140:
7131:
7128:
7127:
7125:
7121:
7118:
7117:
7116:
7110:
7107:
7104:
7103:
7102:
7099:
7095:
7094:
7090:
7089:Meme check #2
7086:
7085:
7081:
7077:
7073:
7069:
7065:
7064:
7060:
7056:
7049:
7046:
7045:
7044:
7042:
7035:
7031:
7028:
7027:
7026:
7020:
7017:
7016:
7015:
7009:
7006:
7005:
7004:
7001:
6997:
6994:
6992:
6988:
6987:Meme check #1
6984:
6983:
6979:
6975:
6969:
6967:
6962:
6957:
6953:
6947:
6944:
6941:
6937:
6933:
6932:
6931:
6929:
6925:
6924:
6920:
6916:
6909:
6904:
6901:
6897:
6894:
6890:
6886:
6885:
6884:
6881:
6880:
6876:
6875:
6871:
6867:
6858:
6855:
6852:
6849:
6848:
6844:
6841:
6838:
6835:
6834:
6830:
6827:
6824:
6821:
6820:
6816:
6813:
6810:
6807:
6806:
6802:
6799:
6796:
6793:
6792:
6788:
6785:
6782:
6779:
6778:
6774:
6771:
6768:
6765:
6764:
6760:
6757:
6754:
6751:
6750:
6746:
6743:
6740:
6737:
6736:
6732:
6729:
6726:
6723:
6722:
6718:
6715:
6712:
6709:
6708:
6704:
6701:
6698:
6695:
6694:
6690:
6687:
6684:
6682:
6681:
6671:
6668:
6665:
6664:
6662:
6658:
6654:
6653:
6651:
6648:
6645:
6642:
6641:
6640:
6637:
6636:
6632:
6631:
6627:
6623:
6617:
6616:
6612:
6608:
6599:
6598:
6597:
6594:
6578:
6574:
6570:
6566:
6562:
6558:
6554:
6551:
6550:
6549:
6548:
6544:
6540:
6536:
6525:
6524:
6520:
6516:
6512:
6508:
6503:
6502:
6498:
6494:
6486:
6482:
6478:
6473:
6472:
6471:
6470:
6466:
6462:
6459:
6454:
6453:
6449:
6445:
6438:
6431:
6430:
6426:
6422:
6418:
6413:
6412:
6408:
6404:
6400:
6395:
6386:
6382:
6378:
6374:
6370:
6365:
6360:
6359:
6358:
6357:
6353:
6349:
6345:
6340:
6339:
6335:
6331:
6327:
6323:
6318:
6317:
6313:
6309:
6305:
6301:
6296:
6295:
6291:
6287:
6283:
6279:
6275:
6271:
6259:
6255:
6251:
6247:
6244:
6241:
6238:
6235:
6232:
6228:
6227:
6226:
6225:
6221:
6217:
6211:
6209:
6205:
6201:
6200:Gaza genocide
6186:
6182:
6178:
6174:
6173:
6171:
6167:
6163:
6159:
6155:
6153:
6149:
6145:
6141:
6137:
6135:
6131:
6127:
6122:
6118:
6110:
6107:
6104:
6103:
6097:
6093:
6092:
6091:
6090:
6088:
6084:
6083:
6080:
6076:
6072:
6068:
6065:
6063:
6061:
6057:
6056:
6055:
6051:
6047:
6043:
6039:
6034:
6030:
6026:
6022:
6017:
6016:
6015:
6011:
6007:
6003:
5999:
5995:
5993:
5989:
5985:
5980:
5978:
5974:
5970:
5966:
5962:
5960:
5956:
5952:
5948:
5944:
5940:
5936:
5932:
5927:
5925:
5921:
5917:
5912:
5907:
5906:
5891:
5887:
5883:
5879:
5875:
5872:
5871:
5869:
5863:
5859:
5855:
5851:
5847:
5843:
5839:
5835:
5832:
5831:
5830:
5826:
5822:
5817:
5812:
5808:
5805:
5804:
5803:
5799:
5795:
5791:
5787:
5783:
5779:
5775:
5771:
5767:
5763:
5759:
5755:
5754:
5753:
5752:
5748:
5744:
5739:
5731:
5726:
5722:
5718:
5714:
5713:Gaza genocide
5709:
5705:
5704:
5703:
5699:
5698:
5694:
5690:
5684:
5682:
5678:
5674:
5669:
5666:
5662:
5657:
5653:
5649:
5646:
5642:
5637:
5630:
5626:
5622:
5618:
5614:
5609:
5605:
5604:
5603:
5602:
5598:
5594:
5590:
5586:
5581:
5575:
5574:
5570:
5566:
5562:
5558:
5556:
5550:
5544:
5543:
5539:
5535:
5531:
5530:WP:ASPERSIONS
5525:
5524:
5520:
5516:
5510:
5508:
5502:
5500:
5495:
5493:
5489:
5485:
5481:
5476:
5473:
5460:
5456:
5450:
5443:
5442:
5435:
5431:
5425:
5420:
5418:
5414:
5408:
5402:
5398:
5394:
5390:
5386:
5383:
5380:
5376:
5372:
5370:
5366:
5360:
5354:
5350:
5342:
5339:
5335:
5330:
5328:
5324:
5318:
5311:
5304:
5299:
5295:
5291:
5285:
5277:
5272:
5268:
5264:
5258:
5252:
5251:
5250:
5246:
5240:
5233:
5229:
5228:
5227:
5223:
5217:
5209:
5204:
5203:
5202:
5201:
5197:
5191:
5184:
5180:
5178:
5174:
5162:
5158:
5152:
5146:
5142:
5138:
5134:
5130:
5126:
5121:
5118:
5115:
5112:
5109:
5108:
5104:
5103:
5102:
5101:
5097:
5093:
5089:
5088:
5084:
5083:
5080:
5077:
5075:
5072:
5070:
5067:
5065:
5064:TarnishedPath
5062:
5060:
5057:
5055:
5052:
5050:
5047:
5045:
5042:
5040:
5037:
5035:
5032:
5030:
5027:
5025:
5022:
5020:
5017:
5015:
5012:
5010:
5009:IOHANNVSVERVS
5007:
5005:
5002:
5000:
4997:
4995:
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3449:are repealed.
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2342:As I see it,
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1176:.../Amendment
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310:clarification
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229:26 July 2024
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196:Request name
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98:Request name
96:
90:
89:Case requests
81:this template
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29:
23:
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17756:
17749:
17737:page history
17730:
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17661:
17646:Replying to
17617:
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17503:SerialNumber
17502:
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17481:SerialNumber
17480:
17476:
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17437:SerialNumber
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17406:SerialNumber
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17389:SerialNumber
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17143:
17140:my talk page
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16797:
16796:
16758:
16745:
16740:Initiated by
16739:
16738:
16721:
16707:
16677:
16648:
16646:complexity.
16633:
16599:
16587:
16539:
16501:
16459:Abstentions
16432:
16410:
16371:
16287:Abstentions
16264:
16243:
16229:
16162:
16120:Abstentions
16094:
16072:
16060:
16022:
15986:
15944:Abstentions
15917:standard set
15913:
15881:
15864:
15764:Abstentions
15742:
15720:
15672:
15635:
15594:Abstentions
15560:
15523:
15519:
15498:
15495:
15490:
15487:
15471:
15456:
15330:
15267:BilledMammal
15241:
15084:
15078:
15066:
15055:
15030:
14990:Cannot pass
14834:Motion name
14825:
14824:
14810:
14799:
14779:
14763:Coretheapple
14759:
14748:Coretheapple
14741:
14730:Coretheapple
14723:
14712:Coretheapple
14708:
14692:Super Goku V
14684:
14680:
14678:
14676:
14656:
14635:
14632:WP:RFCBEFORE
14626:
14605:
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14499:Sean.hoyland
14474:
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14333:Figureofnine
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14295:Figureofnine
14291:
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13779:are good at
13777:
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13757:deprecation.
13755:
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12862:
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12788:articles. --
12785:
12771:
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12711:BilledMammal
12692:
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12646:BilledMammal
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12383:berchanhimez
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12273:
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12211:gathered by
12190:
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12166:
12158:
12140:
12102:back in 2007
11949:
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11081:User:Afdshah
11021:
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10997:
10953:
10895:
10826:Annette Maon
10764:
10757:BilledMammal
10738:
10717:
10658:
10629:Penguin UK.
10626:
10620:
10612:
10605:
10601:. You write:
10580:
10528:Kaifeng Jews
10409:
10403:
10396:berchanhimez
10389:
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10084:
10024:
9996:Sean.hoyland
9962:
9957:
9941:
9914:
9843:BilledMammal
9835:this message
9762:
9740:
9736:
9712:
9674:about RTH's
9651:
9650:
9594:
9528:
9527:
9485:
9439:
9434:
9432:
9430:
9408:
9389:You can see
9386:
9231:
9223:(Hat tip to
9207:
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9112:Sean.Hoyland
9094:
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9040:
9026:BilledMammal
8989:BilledMammal
8982:
8966:BilledMammal
8959:
8923:Sean.hoyland
8905:
8892:
8873:
8856:BilledMammal
8823:BilledMammal
8808:
8798:this comment
8786:
8761:this comment
8738:BilledMammal
8723:
8699:BilledMammal
8674:BilledMammal
8658:
8628:BilledMammal
8596:Wafflefrites
8586:
8585:
8582:BilledMammal
8572:
8571:
8550:Onceinawhile
8525:
8524:
8488:BilledMammal
8477:
8464:
8459:Sean.hoyland
8444:BilledMammal
8436:
8411:BilledMammal
8401:
8386:
8358:BilledMammal
8333:BilledMammal
8324:
8290:
8289:
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8252:BilledMammal
8229:Sean.hoyland
8196:BilledMammal
8181:
8175:
8164:
8140:BilledMammal
8115:BilledMammal
8093:BilledMammal
8044:BilledMammal
8012:BilledMammal
8002:or what the
7984:BilledMammal
7982:
7932:Bludgeoning
7905:POV pushing
7900:
7883:
7880:
7864:
7852:
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7580:Sean.hoyland
7570:
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7554:Sean.hoyland
7550:Coretheapple
7548:
7537:Sean.hoyland
7531:
7520:Sean.hoyland
7516:
7497:
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7489:
7488:
7477:Sean.hoyland
7473:
7462:Sean.hoyland
7456:
7445:Sean.hoyland
7440:
7439:, regarding
7435:
7424:Sean.hoyland
7417:
7411:
7399:Sean.hoyland
7354:
7349:
7348:
7337:Sean.hoyland
7333:BilledMammel
7331:
7320:Sean.hoyland
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7302:Sean.hoyland
7298:
7287:Sean.hoyland
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7271:Sean.hoyland
7259:
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7222:Sean.hoyland
7218:
7214:
7183:
7180:PIA dynamics
7179:
7178:
7167:Sean.hoyland
7162:BilledMammal
7159:
7155:
7154:
7143:Sean.hoyland
7137:
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7096:
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7076:Sean.hoyland
7066:
7055:Sean.hoyland
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6974:Sean.hoyland
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6915:Sean.hoyland
6913:
6882:
6878:
6877:
6866:Sean.hoyland
6864:
6688:actor_count
6656:thereabouts.
6638:
6634:
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6622:Sean.hoyland
6618:
6607:Sean.hoyland
6604:
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6087:WP:WIKIVOICE
6036:
5965:WP:CANVASSED
5837:
5834:Coretheapple
5810:
5807:Figureofnine
5737:
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5549:BilledMammal
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5375:BilledMammal
5352:
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5185:
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5170:
5141:coupled with
5090:Pursuant to
5034:BilledMammal
5014:Sean.hoyland
4961:
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4213:Sean.hoyland
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3850:Pursuant to
3800:
3787:
3782:Initiated by
3781:
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3743:
3723:
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3606:
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3471:Abstentions
3444:
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3395:
3387:
3381:
3375:
3338:
3332:
3320:
3230:Abstentions
3207:
3201:
3180:
3174:
3162:
3145:
3139:
3127:
3042:1 ("Talk");
3020:1 ("Talk");
3000:
2999:) is (only)
2985:
2901:Motion name
2892:
2891:
2877:
2866:
2850:Super Goku V
2846:
2822:
2803:
2788:
2767:
2737:
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2018:
2012:
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1915:Initiated by
1914:
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1189:
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384:
327:
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176:13 Sep 2024
169:
138:
112:
17836:Newyorkbrad
17820:Newyorkbrad
17455:Newyorkbrad
16849:(initiator)
16678:HJ Mitchell
16615:HJ Mitchell
16600:HJ Mitchell
16540:HJ Mitchell
16411:HJ Mitchell
16227:Proposing.
16073:HJ Mitchell
16023:HJ Mitchell
15865:HJ Mitchell
15721:HJ Mitchell
15673:HJ Mitchell
15524:HJ Mitchell
15499:HJ Mitchell
15331:HJ Mitchell
15304:HJ Mitchell
14571:HJ Mitchell
14471:HJ Mitchell
14151:Hydrangeans
14015:HJ Mitchell
13944:Doug Weller
13882:talk to me!
13868:talk to me!
13846:talk to me!
13529:"Palestine"
13400:, at times,
13055:red herring
13016:HJ Mitchell
12921:WP:ACTIVIST
12726:WP:FOOTBALL
12699:tag teaming
12695:bludgeoning
12661:which is a
12296:LokiTheLiar
11685:WP:CIVILPOV
11657:WP:CIVILPOV
11615:WP:CIVILPOV
11393:HJ Mitchell
11278:Vanamonde93
11263:Vanamonde93
11248:Vanamonde93
11225:Vanamonde93
11209:Vanamonde93
11033:User:Drsmoo
11029:User:Tombah
10787:you provide
10718:perceptions
10613:politically
10068:• she/her)
10051:Selfstudier
10041:• she/her)
9942:HJ Mitchell
9716:case here.
9676:INVOLVEMENT
9319:HJ Mitchell
9287:HJ Mitchell
9043:pro-Israeli
9041:Concerning
8993:Please add
8767:"massacre".
8602:IvanScrooge
8565:Vice regent
8556:Durranistan
8541:Makeandtoss
8535:Iskandar323
8532:Selfstudier
8315:Selfstudier
7917:Incivility
7490:Ban evasion
7389:User:FourPi
7091:TLDR -: -->
6989:TLDR -: -->
6663:Questions:
6553:HJ Mitchell
6515:Selfstudier
6493:Selfstudier
6477:Selfstudier
6461:Selfstudier
6444:Selfstudier
6421:Selfstudier
6403:Selfstudier
6377:Selfstudier
6348:Selfstudier
6330:Selfstudier
6308:Selfstudier
6286:Selfstudier
6156:Comment on
6096:Pareto rule
6042:WP:NOTAVOTE
5019:Iskandar323
4999:Selfstudier
4941:protections
4887:protections
4833:protections
4778:protections
4261:Iskandar323
4069:Selfstudier
3740:HJ Mitchell
3724:HJ Mitchell
3698:to reflect
2807:Doug Weller
2793:Doug Weller
2604:#2 in the '
2597:#1 in the '
2541:Selfstudier
2495:Doug Weller
2470:this revert
2439:Selfstudier
2366:Selfstudier
2334:Selfstudier
2272:Selfstudier
2241:Selfstudier
2220:Selfstudier
2210:Doug Weller
2186:Selfstudier
2169:Selfstudier
2065:protections
2038:(initiator)
1993:Selfstudier
1918:Selfstudier
371:to do this.
59:proceedings
18006:Categories
17994:Guerillero
17980:CaptainEek
17913:notability
17711:(shortcut
17703:(shortcut
17323:notability
17178:my promise
17094:Notability
17042:Notability
16936:block user
16930:filter log
16888:block user
16882:filter log
16839:block user
16833:filter log
16722:CaptainEek
16708:CaptainEek
16649:CaptainEek
16634:CaptainEek
16619:~ ToBeFree
16570:~ ToBeFree
16515:Guerillero
16502:CaptainEek
16454:reference
16372:CaptainEek
16362:Guerillero
16348:~ ToBeFree
16282:reference
16244:CaptainEek
16230:CaptainEek
16198:~ ToBeFree
16176:Guerillero
16163:CaptainEek
16115:reference
16038:~ ToBeFree
16000:Guerillero
15987:CaptainEek
15939:reference
15895:Guerillero
15882:CaptainEek
15838:~ ToBeFree
15836:prefer 2c
15759:reference
15689:~ ToBeFree
15649:Guerillero
15636:CaptainEek
15589:reference
15565:under the
15472:CaptainEek
15457:CaptainEek
15441:~ ToBeFree
15405:Guerillero
15392:Guerillero
14628:CaptainEek
14575:CaptainEek
14412:by default
14367:(Redacted)
14190:especially
14033:individual
13906:Domeditrix
13799:, through
13732:(he/him •
13717:(he/him •
13708:WP:SOAPBOX
13586:WP:POVNAME
13184:WP:POVNAME
13173:threatened
13020:Especially
12929:WP:NOTHERE
12845:Domeditrix
12790:Domeditrix
12709:variety. @
12675:SashiRolls
12637:SashiRolls
12619:SashiRolls
12398:Not at all
12209:this chart
12172:In short,
12151:Swatjester
12143:Tryptofish
11761:Tryptofish
11626:course, I
11546:Tryptofish
11532:Tryptofish
11518:Tryptofish
11503:Tryptofish
11483:Tryptofish
11468:Tryptofish
11387:Tryptofish
11373:Tryptofish
11358:Tryptofish
11343:Tryptofish
11328:Tryptofish
11301:Tryptofish
11061:User:רמרום
11057:User:האופה
10558:Swatjester
10523:Swatjester
10490:sealioning
10486:Swatjester
10402:who have,
10352:Domeditrix
10298:sealioning
10292:Swatjester
10256:Tryptofish
10198:CaptainEek
10171:CaptainEek
9614:Nishidani
9383:Tryptofish
9061:Ilan Pappe
8945:CaptainEek
8840:SashiRolls
8796:Regarding
8759:Regarding
8669:disparity.
8599:Borgenland
8593:Chomik1129
8562:Ali Ahwazi
8483:this table
8380:Seggallion
8159:Black Kite
8073:an editor
7611:Dan Murphy
7412:Regarding
5790:Hen Mazzig
5782:Brianna Wu
5135:on either
5024:Dan Murphy
4953:page moves
4899:page moves
4845:page moves
4790:page moves
4735:block user
4729:filter log
4687:block user
4681:filter log
4639:block user
4633:filter log
4591:block user
4585:filter log
4543:block user
4537:filter log
4488:block user
4482:filter log
4440:block user
4434:filter log
4392:block user
4386:filter log
4344:block user
4338:filter log
4309:Dan Murphy
4296:block user
4290:filter log
4248:block user
4242:filter log
4200:block user
4194:filter log
4152:block user
4146:filter log
4104:block user
4098:filter log
4056:block user
4050:filter log
4008:block user
4002:filter log
3960:block user
3954:filter log
3911:block user
3905:filter log
3626:~ ToBeFree
3511:~ ToBeFree
3466:reference
3352:~ ToBeFree
3307:~ ToBeFree
3225:reference
3106:Guerillero
3053:~ ToBeFree
3031:All other
2612:' applies.
2526:WP:BROADLY
2256:Guerillero
2077:page moves
2028:block user
2022:filter log
272:orig. case
248:orig. case
224:orig. case
161:Case name
150:Past cases
134:Open cases
104:Initiated
17654:deletion"
16942:block log
16894:block log
16845:block log
16566:WP:BURDEN
15174:Barkeep49
15139:Barkeep49
15114:Barkeep49
15065:). Best,
14645:on reply)
14615:on reply)
14579:WP:ARBIRP
14553:on reply)
14122:with the
13937:Rosguill.
13761:WP:BIASED
13730:Shushugah
13715:Shushugah
13625:Jehochman
13298:accounts.
12806:Number 57
12767:WP:CANVAS
12740:shouldn't
12472:potential
12253:in theory
11865:aspersion
11858:Nishidani
11743:Aquillion
11706:happening
11669:Aquillion
11641:Aquillion
11590:Nishidani
11244:WP:ARBGWE
11240:WP:ARBIRP
11128:Nishidani
11105:Nishidani
11099:, sock);
11006:Barkeep49
10970:Nishidani
10940:Nishidani
10926:Nishidani
10879:Nishidani
10839:Nishidani
10803:Nishidani
10770:Nishidani
10744:Nishidani
10722:Nishidani
10698:Nishidani
10664:Nishidani
10644:Nishidani
10623:Ian Black
10585:Nishidani
10581:empirical
10563:Nishidani
10544:Nishidani
10532:Gadubanud
10509:Nishidani
10473:Nishidani
10455:Nishidani
10437:Nishidani
10418:Nishidani
10390:two sides
10382:this. . .
10354:there is
10306:Number 57
10007:Barkeep49
9971:Barkeep49
9937:Barkeep49
9922:Barkeep49
9898:Barkeep49
9883:Barkeep49
9865:Barkeep49
9851:Barkeep49
9819:Barkeep49
9812:Nishidani
9797:Barkeep49
9782:Barkeep49
9767:Barkeep49
9745:Barkeep49
9718:Barkeep49
9699:Barkeep49
9681:Barkeep49
9672:AN thread
9658:Barkeep49
9637:Barkeep49
9620:Barkeep49
9599:Barkeep49
9568:Barkeep49
9553:Barkeep49
9535:Barkeep49
9510:Barkeep49
9491:Barkeep49
9486:mechanics
9484:that the
9464:Barkeep49
9444:Barkeep49
9364:Barkeep49
9347:Barkeep49
9133:Barkeep49
8803:(a) - It
8689:Nishidani
8649:Nishidani
8622:accurate.
8547:Nishidani
8375:Nishidani
8239:Nishidani
8130:Nishidani
8113:pushing.
8108:Nishidani
7860:supported
7533:Barkeep49
7385:Exhibit C
7375:Exhibit B
7370:Exhibit A
7209:WP:ARBECR
7199:Step 2 -
7188:Step 1 -
7093:more data
6991:some data
6437:Barkeep49
6394:Nishidani
6231:EC editor
5608:Barkeep49
5561:confirmed
5499:WP:BANPOL
5074:DMH223344
5069:Nishidani
5059:PeleYoetz
5049:Barkeep49
4947:deletions
4893:deletions
4864:Barkeep49
4839:deletions
4784:deletions
4741:block log
4693:block log
4652:DMH223344
4645:block log
4604:Nishidani
4597:block log
4549:block log
4508:PeleYoetz
4494:block log
4446:block log
4398:block log
4350:block log
4302:block log
4254:block log
4206:block log
4158:block log
4110:block log
4062:block log
4014:block log
3966:block log
3917:block log
3700:WP:CT/A-I
3696:WP:ARBECR
3650:WP:ARBECR
3646:WP:ARBECR
3123:WP:ARBECR
3119:WP:ARBECR
3085:WP:CT/A-I
3040:namespace
3018:namespace
3011:WP:ARBPIA
2769:Callanecc
2739:Callanecc
2712:Callanecc
2679:Callanecc
2422:talkspace
2414:userspace
2348:WP:ARBECR
2291:Barkeep49
2267:this edit
2139:Barkeep49
2129:To match
2071:deletions
2042:Barkeep49
2034:block log
1167:WP:A/R/CA
1157:WP:A/R/CL
1135:Shortcuts
314:amendment
17938:Primefac
17924:Primefac
17816:problems
17796:Flatscan
17758:Flatscan
17733:disagree
17713:WP:ATD-R
17705:WP:ATD-M
17648:Flatscan
17547:and not
17461:you said
17371:narrowly
17367:deletion
17144:DELETION
17127:DELETION
17016:contribs
16992:contribs
16912:contribs
16864:contribs
16815:contribs
16662:Primefac
16524:Primefac
16452:Majority
16384:Primefac
16280:Majority
16184:Primefac
16113:Majority
16008:Primefac
15937:Majority
15824:Primefac
15757:Majority
15657:Primefac
15587:Majority
15541:Primefac
15418:against
15378:Primefac
15063:suggests
14846:Passing
14843:Abstain
14837:Support
14725:Amayorov
14641:(Please
14623:Motion 2
14611:(Please
14566:Motion 4
14549:(Please
14505:starship
14477:starship
14448:Springee
14420:Amayorov
14394:Amayorov
14372:Amayorov
14342:contribs
14314:Levivich
14304:contribs
14282:Amayorov
14267:contribs
14227:contribs
14204:contribs
14186:WP:CIVIL
13981:separate
13595:scholars
13590:scholars
13580:: "...s
13435:minutely
13409:unhinged
13343:Rosguill
13338:signed,
13205:xDanielx
13048:an essay
12978:the link
12755:Zanahary
12744:ABHammad
12734:despite
12629:NoCal100
12544:Zanahary
12075:Huldra's
11633:WP:CIVIL
10874:haskalah
10783:Nableezy
10765:dominate
10761:I second
10451:WP:CIVIL
10386:xDanielx
10338:Zanahary
9839:Levivich
9732:Levivich
9270:ToBeFree
9249:Levivich
8753:Zero0000
8716:Zero0000
8645:Levivich
8605:Arminden
8559:Zero0000
8544:Nableezy
8430:Zero0000
8407:) (×6)
8405:contribs
8390:contribs
8348:Nableezy
8267:Nableezy
8135:pushing.
8059:Rosguill
8027:Nableezy
7909:sources.
7886:nableezy
7867:nableezy
7843:nableezy
7837:massacre
7820:nableezy
7805:nableezy
7789:nableezy
7765:nableezy
7751:nableezy
7731:nableezy
7712:nableezy
7705:actually
7687:nableezy
7652:nableezy
7576:Levivich
7572:See plot
7458:Zero0000
7437:Zero0000
7414:Zero0000
7261:See plot
7068:Zero0000
6557:claiming
6417:regulars
6250:ABHammad
6216:ABHammad
6162:Motion 4
6158:Motion 3
5882:Levivich
5878:WP:APLRS
5854:Levivich
5821:Levivich
5794:Levivich
5743:Levivich
5707:appeals.
5689:Levivich
5621:Levivich
5593:Levivich
5565:Levivich
5534:Levivich
5515:Levivich
5472:anyone's
5385:contribs
5276:Zero0000
5208:Levivich
5079:M.Bitton
5039:Zero0000
5029:Nableezy
4994:ABHammad
4979:Levivich
4929:contribs
4875:contribs
4821:contribs
4766:contribs
4711:contribs
4700:M.Bitton
4663:contribs
4615:contribs
4567:contribs
4519:contribs
4464:contribs
4453:Zero0000
4416:contribs
4368:contribs
4357:Nableezy
4320:contribs
4272:contribs
4224:contribs
4176:contribs
4128:contribs
4080:contribs
4032:contribs
4021:ABHammad
3984:contribs
3936:contribs
3887:contribs
3876:Levivich
3562:ToBeFree
3464:Majority
3440:Remedy 8
3436:Remedy 7
3432:Remedy 6
3397:Remedy 5
3377:Remedy 4
3350:Thanks!
3223:Majority
3121:.) Now,
2913:Passing
2910:Abstain
2904:Support
2748:contribs
2721:contribs
2688:contribs
2506:Zero0000
2201:Zero0000
2158:Zero0000
2146:Zero0000
2053:contribs
2004:contribs
1193:archives
1162:WP:A/R/A
388:archives
365:{{subst:
199:Motions
101:Motions
39:Shortcut
22:Requests
20: |
17741:deleted
17727:WP:BLAR
17380:process
17360:Quote:
17309:WP:BLAR
17243:scale.'
17187:happen.
17037:adding
16584:Abstain
16562:WP:ONUS
16493:Support
16398:Abstain
16321:Support
16217:Abstain
16154:Support
16057:Abstain
15978:Support
15852:Abstain
15798:Support
15708:Abstain
15628:Support
15491:en banc
15374:WP:PIA5
14840:Oppose
14214:Motions
14155:she/her
14138:by the
14036:editors
14030:hitting
13919:Amakuru
13601:others.
13285:Portals
13265:Ravpapa
13164:Zionism
12946:remedy.
12839:Joe Roe
12827:Amakuru
12782:Ravpapa
12774:The_Kip
12736:WP:VOTE
12663:partial
12569:Ravpapa
12463:WP:SOCK
12410:already
12348:WP:BRIE
11710:WP:ROPE
11661:WP:BITE
11320:WP:BRIE
11120:Barkeep
11087:(69%);
11055:(43%),
11039:(49%);
11035:(48%);
11027:(72%);
10992:Barkeep
10714:Barkeep
10360:editors
10340:: It’s
10320:The Kip
10266:, were
9652:despite
9131:editor
9045:versus
9024:editor
8995:this RM
8987:editor
8964:editor
8943:editor
8921:editor
8848:actors.
8553:Irtapil
8437:editing
8395:Icewhiz
8079:At the
8071:ADL RFC
8069:At the
7856:claimed
7205:WP:SOCK
7194:AE case
6966:WP:SOCK
6939:like...
6928:The Kip
6900:WP:SOCK
6889:WP:SOCK
6511:Zionism
6278:Zionism
6208:Zionism
5943:WP:ONUS
5939:WP:ONUS
5816:WP:NPOV
5730:Zionism
5349:WP:BITE
3566:WP:CTOP
3550:Abstain
3505:Support
3442:of the
3424:comment
3379:of the
3291:Abstain
3264:Support
2907:Oppose
2547:WP:TBAN
2533:WP:UOWN
2437:editor
2364:editor
2332:editor
2182:And now
1142:WP:ARCA
205:Posted
164:Closed
79:discuss
47:WP:ARCA
17707:) and
17662:per se
17559:Tamzin
17536:being
17240:struck
17172:WP:DYK
17170:, and
17168:WP:ARS
17107:, and
17085:, and
17081:, and
16804:Cunard
16743:Cunard
16556:Oppose
16436:sunset
16326:Oppose
16212:Oppose
16097:sunset
16052:Oppose
15803:Oppose
15703:Oppose
15687:Okay.
15437:WP:ARC
15401:Huldra
15068:KevinL
14852:Notes
14510:.paint
14482:.paint
14328:failed
14021:rather
13899:Buidhe
13609:Huldra
13539:Huldra
13493:Huldra
13474:Huldra
13443:Huldra
13380:Huldra
13063:should
12932:this.
12925:WP:SPA
12786:within
12467:always
12344:WP:RGW
12149:, and
12107:Number
12081:Number
12055:Number
12029:Number
12024:my RfA
12003:Number
11977:Number
11954:Number
11933:Jester
11908:Jester
11883:Jester
11840:Jester
11823:Huldra
11807:Jester
11790:Huldra
11775:Jester
11713:count.
11619:WP:AGF
11192:buidhe
11051:(89%);
10870:Hebron
10616:that:-
10388:: the
10362:here
10328:scream
10268:acting
9958:during
9845:about
9460:WP:HJP
9409:recent
9219:tomats
8771:again.
8665:socks.
8579:Tombah
8325:proves
8291:Oppose
8282:WP:AGF
7783:others
7315:Labels
6859:59678
6845:52636
6831:19716
6817:21711
6803:14908
6789:15812
6775:23643
6761:21463
6747:18541
6733:23195
6719:23773
6705:17754
6569:fiveby
6539:fiveby
6507:WP:CRP
6121:WP:TNT
5911:WP:RSN
5846:Israel
5786:X post
5778:X post
5774:revert
5770:revert
5766:revert
5762:revert
5758:revert
5673:FourPi
5589:WP:ARC
5454:(nest)
5412:(nest)
5364:(nest)
5322:(nest)
5289:(nest)
5262:(nest)
5244:(nest)
5221:(nest)
5195:(nest)
5156:(nest)
5004:fiveby
4959:rights
4935:blocks
4905:rights
4881:blocks
4851:rights
4827:blocks
4796:rights
4772:blocks
4117:fiveby
3745:KevinL
3655:KevinL
3596:KevinL
3525:Oppose
3438:, and
3322:KevinL
3269:Oppose
3204:ARBPIA
3164:KevinL
3129:KevinL
3081:WP:ECR
2919:Notes
2833:(nest)
2777:(talk)
2516:WP:ECR
2512:WP:PIA
2468:Maybe
2402:agrees
2131:WP:ECR
2083:rights
2059:blocks
1147:WP:ARA
1111:Clerks
324:bans).
241:Motion
217:Motion
124:4/0/0
107:Votes
17920:start
17902:where
17509:54129
17487:54129
17443:54129
17412:54129
17395:54129
17184:never
17160:three
17131:MERGE
16333:Aoidh
15810:Aoidh
15433:האופה
15429:האופה
15420:האופה
15348:Aoidh
15315:Aoidh
15289:Aoidh
15274:Aoidh
15252:Aoidh
15226:Aoidh
15202:Z1720
15181:Z1720
15159:Z1720
15145:Z1720
15124:Z1720
15099:Z1720
15049:האופה
15042:האופה
15027:Notes
14163:edits
14059:Notes
14049:v^_^v
14003:v^_^v
13671:Arkon
13655:Arkon
13640:Arkon
13370:never
13135:alien
13103:alien
13000:alien
12961:alien
12654:known
12465:will
12262:badly
12159:every
11693:worse
11637:WP:EW
11436:WP:AE
11316:WP:RS
10834:reply
10636:p.8 )
10538:and
10294:;The
10058:lower
9837:from
9595:could
9549:Z1720
9524:Z1720
9505:Z1720
9478:Z1720
9185:Gripe
8819:NebYs
8275:page.
8244:list.
8190:Aoidh
8167:with
7363:rate.
6961:could
6856:6287
6853:2024
6842:6778
6839:2023
6828:2464
6825:2022
6814:2755
6811:2021
6800:2110
6797:2020
6786:1907
6783:2019
6772:2184
6769:2018
6758:2091
6755:2017
6744:1848
6741:2016
6730:2167
6727:2015
6716:2483
6713:2014
6702:2096
6699:2013
6685:year
6371:lower
5613:here.
5507:could
5424:Z1720
5336:, of
5177:Note:
4984:האופה
3925:האופה
3704:Aoidh
3642:Aoidh
3576:pages
3536:Aoidh
3532:above
3277:Aoidh
3090:Aoidh
3067:Aoidh
2982:Notes
2703:Aoidh
2552:WP:GS
2416:" at
2404:with
202:Case
16:<
17942:talk
17928:talk
17861:talk
17857:Izno
17840:talk
17824:talk
17800:talk
17762:talk
17671:talk
17636:talk
17553:just
17538:BLAR
17471:good
17376:GoDG
17010:talk
16986:talk
16924:logs
16906:talk
16876:logs
16858:talk
16827:logs
16809:talk
16666:talk
16623:talk
16574:talk
16564:and
16528:talk
16483:3–4
16475:1–2
16388:talk
16352:talk
16337:talk
16311:3–4
16303:1–2
16202:talk
16188:talk
16144:3–4
16136:1–2
16042:talk
16012:talk
15968:3–4
15960:1–2
15842:talk
15828:talk
15814:talk
15788:3–4
15780:1–2
15693:talk
15661:talk
15618:3–4
15610:1–2
15545:talk
15445:talk
15382:talk
15352:talk
15319:talk
15293:talk
15278:talk
15256:talk
15230:talk
15206:talk
15185:talk
15163:talk
15149:talk
15128:talk
15120:here
15103:talk
15076:L235
14787:talk
14783:Izno
14767:talk
14752:talk
14734:talk
14716:talk
14696:talk
14664:talk
14643:ping
14613:ping
14591:veto
14585:and
14573:and
14551:ping
14452:talk
14424:talk
14398:talk
14376:talk
14360:and
14338:talk
14318:both
14300:talk
14287:this
14263:talk
14223:talk
14200:talk
14159:talk
14093:talk
14089:RAN1
14085:diff
14039:only
14027:just
14024:than
13948:talk
13923:talk
13808:need
13793:that
13763:and
13734:talk
13719:talk
13675:talk
13659:talk
13644:talk
13613:talk
13543:talk
13521:and
13512:and
13497:talk
13478:talk
13447:talk
13439:here
13406:more
13384:talk
13366:love
13269:talk
13162:The
13141:talk
13132:ugly
13109:talk
13100:ugly
13006:talk
12997:ugly
12967:talk
12958:ugly
12897:talk
12893:Loki
12874:talk
12870:Loki
12849:talk
12819:. A
12794:talk
12715:here
12701:and
12650:here
12608:here
12573:talk
12394:many
12249:main
12073:For
11930:SWAT
11905:SWAT
11880:SWAT
11837:SWAT
11804:SWAT
11772:SWAT
11747:talk
11739:hard
11731:does
11673:talk
11665:just
11645:talk
11635:and
11628:also
11623:easy
11598:talk
11580:talk
11550:talk
11536:talk
11522:talk
11507:talk
11487:talk
11472:talk
11424:real
11377:talk
11362:talk
11347:talk
11332:talk
11324:that
11305:talk
11282:talk
11267:talk
11252:talk
11242:and
11229:talk
11213:talk
11148:talk
11132:talk
11109:talk
10974:talk
10944:talk
10930:talk
10883:talk
10843:talk
10807:talk
10774:talk
10748:talk
10726:talk
10702:talk
10668:talk
10648:talk
10631:ISBN
10589:talk
10567:talk
10548:talk
10513:talk
10477:talk
10469:link
10459:talk
10441:talk
10422:talk
10377:the
10213:Path
10186:Path
10160:Path
10129:Path
10099:Path
10066:talk
10039:talk
10028:L235
10011:talk
10003:here
9992:and
9975:talk
9926:talk
9902:talk
9887:talk
9869:talk
9855:talk
9823:talk
9801:talk
9786:talk
9771:talk
9749:talk
9722:talk
9703:talk
9685:talk
9662:talk
9641:talk
9624:talk
9603:talk
9572:talk
9557:talk
9539:talk
9514:talk
9495:talk
9468:talk
9448:talk
9417:talk
9399:talk
9391:here
9372:talk
9355:talk
9338:talk
9310:talk
9295:talk
9278:talk
9261:talk
9239:talk
9189:Zero
9177:Zero
9140:Zero
9119:Zero
9101:Zero
9088:Zero
9069:Zero
9051:Zero
9033:Zero
9012:Zero
9006:and
8976:Zero
8972:here
8952:Zero
8930:Zero
8909:Zero
8898:Zero
8860:talk
8827:talk
8805:does
8778:and
8742:talk
8703:talk
8678:talk
8647:and
8632:talk
8492:talk
8448:talk
8415:talk
8399:talk
8384:talk
8362:talk
8337:talk
8329:here
8295:this
8256:talk
8200:talk
8182:bold
8144:talk
8119:talk
8097:talk
8048:talk
8032:RSN.
8016:talk
7988:talk
7935:See
7832:here
7615:talk
7584:talk
7558:talk
7541:talk
7524:talk
7481:talk
7466:talk
7449:talk
7428:talk
7403:talk
7341:talk
7324:talk
7306:talk
7291:talk
7275:talk
7226:talk
7207:and
7171:talk
7147:talk
7080:talk
7059:talk
6978:talk
6919:talk
6870:talk
6626:talk
6611:talk
6573:zero
6543:zero
6519:talk
6497:talk
6481:talk
6465:talk
6448:talk
6425:talk
6407:talk
6381:talk
6352:talk
6334:talk
6326:this
6312:talk
6290:talk
6254:talk
6220:talk
6202:and
6181:talk
6170:talk
6148:talk
6130:talk
6071:talk
6050:talk
6025:talk
6010:talk
5988:talk
5973:talk
5955:talk
5920:talk
5886:talk
5858:talk
5825:talk
5798:talk
5747:talk
5693:talk
5665:that
5625:talk
5597:talk
5585:does
5569:talk
5547:Re:
5538:talk
5519:talk
5492:vast
5484:here
5480:here
5379:talk
5303:L235
5094:, a
4923:talk
4869:talk
4815:talk
4760:talk
4723:logs
4705:talk
4675:logs
4657:talk
4627:logs
4609:talk
4579:logs
4561:talk
4531:logs
4513:talk
4476:logs
4458:talk
4428:logs
4410:talk
4380:logs
4362:talk
4332:logs
4314:talk
4284:logs
4266:talk
4236:logs
4218:talk
4188:logs
4170:talk
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