Talk:Southern United States/Archive 2

1067:. From the very beginning, I avoided absolutes and superlatives to be fair and balanced in this discussion, because even among scholars the culture of Kentucky is a contentious issue. And to be as blunt as I possibly can, I really don't give a damn as to what you think about the Changing Usage study; you cannot spell "border" correctly, and you expect us to elevate your personal opinions to hold as much weight as a peer-reviewed study, written by a professor of geography, and published in a prestigious academic journal? Unimaginable. Call the study "hog wash", "mom and pop", or whatever else you wish to; this does nothing to diminish the merit of the study, but does make your already highly evident bias shine through brightly. You do not desire a "balance" in the treatment of Kentucky; you want us to view the state as the Province of North Georgia, and to hell with any sources that argue otherwise! If I were so incredibly intent on removing Kentucky from the South, again, why in the world would I have not removed the phrase "many Kentuckians consider the state to be Southern" - which was recognized by ALL of our sources? Furthermore, the very last section of my edit - While varying degrees of Northern cultural influence can be found in Kentucky outside of the Golden Triangle region, cities such as Owensboro, Bowling Green, and Paducah, along with most of the state's rural areas, have largely remained distinctly Southern in character - was added, by me, specifically to balance the heavy Midwestern influence in the Triangle with the rest of the state. Again, would I have added this phrase were I so hell-bent on removing Kentucky from the South? No! I have presented a balanced analysis of the state, and you have shown us all repeatedly - not just in this discussion - that balance is the last thing that you desire when talking about Kentucky. 903:

academic sources that label Kentucky as a Border State; it will take all of 10 minutes to assemble such a list, since approximately 100.0000% of all reputable cultural scholars and geographers are in agreement that Kentucky is a Border State. Of course, you still won't listen. Really, you can shed doubt on the amount of Northern cultural influence in KY all day long, with no problems, because this is and always will be disputed. But when you attempt to say that Kentucky is not a Border State...then, you've lost all credibility, and you're simply not telling the truth anymore. Now, you are entitled to your opinion. But this is just your opinion, and you are dead wrong, as wrong as one can possibly be, in stating that Kentucky is not a Border State. Again, I implore you to back up this asanine opinion by providing a single reputable study that says, beyond doubt, that Kentucky is not a Border State. You can produce plenty of studies that include Kentucky in the South, to varying degrees, but you will never find a respected study or article that negates Kentucky's status as a Border State over the last 150 years. And even if you did somehow find a crackjob scholar who believed this, I could provide 50 times as many sources arguing to the contrary. To be honest, that viewpoint is so far on the fringes that, again, I don't even believe it is worthy of discussion/debate. Even Rjensen, who argued fiercely against the notion of KY as even marginally Midwestern, stated that it is a Border State. In terms of geography, this claim is as ludicrous and insupportable as making that statement that "Colorado is not a Rocky Mountain State."

671:

from the type of labor-intensive, cotton-oriented slavery across most of the South, and that slavery was less of an economic foundation in Kentucky than in Virginia, Tennessee, the Carolinas, Georgia, Arkansas, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, Texas, and Florida. This argument clearly goes both way; just as, to a slave, there was a substantial difference between being in Kentucky or Ohio, as there was a substantial, though less so, difference between being in Kentucky or Georgia. While Kentucky adopted Jim Crow after the war as did the other Southern and Border States, Kentucky never oriented with the group of "Solid South" states and never denied the right to vote to blacks. Kentucky's lack of notable Dixiecrat politicians - and even more notably, the fact that Kentucky did not provide a single signatory for the Southern Manifesto - clearly demonstrates this. The Southern Education Foundation acknowledges the Border State-Southern state disparity in terms of civil rights, stating that "Thirteen years after Brown (1954), only 16 percent of African American students are attending schools with White students in the 11 Southern states of the old Confederacy. In Maryland, Kentucky, Oklahoma, and other states on the border South, the rate of integration is 50 percent or above."

634:"made up myself", because every argument that I have presented is based on verifiable, external data. The statements that I cited, just above his comments, are from peer-reviewed academic journals. Who is this "we" that Rjensen refers to, as the consensus was for my edits of the Cultural Variations section, edits which simply reveal the split nature of the state? Furthermore, the Cultural Variations edit referred not to a "few suburban counties", but rather to a distinct sociocultural region of the state counting for more than half of its population. If he is indeed well-versed in the history of the state, he will be aware that this region historically was the only industrialized one in the state of Kentucky, with just as many (if not more, as some contend) economic and cultural ties to the North than South. My cite from the Journal of Economic History is one example of this. Rjensen entered this debate without an awareness of what was being discussed; namely, the contention that Kentucky's culture and history has wide variations and diversity, with experts acknowledging that regions of the state fit within the Midwest from a geographical or sociocultural perspective, and the relative preferability of my edits to those of Louisvillian. 2303:

it is that culture which in fact did establish it as a Southern state from the very beginning of statehood. Following that, the history of "Southerness" was not something that was relatively short in Texas, but exists to this day. It was one of the original charter members of the Confederacy and the second-to-last to be readmitted to the Union (and, following reconstruction, became a strong "Jim Crow" state). Today, it is that essentially Southern history and culture which still dominates Texas in -- just to name a few -- things like religious demographics (Southern Baptist church is the largest protestant denomination), speech (one of many sub-varities of what is broadly known as "Southern American English"), politics (part of the original Solid South originally democratic and now republican) customs and traditions (Confederate holidays, foodstuffs, black-eyed peas on New Years Day, etc). Of course to be sure given some other aspects of its history and large size (such as more recent migration), Texas taken as a whole is not a *typical* Southern state, but Southern in origination and in most of the important ways. Which is why it is, correctly, indicated on the map as "usually" included in the South, as opposed to "almost always".

870:

good majority) of Kentuckians (79%) consider themselves and their state to be Southern, a considerable amount of Kentuckians may not readily identify with the South, most of whom who are opposed to the term Southern opt for the term Midwestern. For example, the culture of Northern Kentucky is more Midwestern than Southern, as this region is culturally and economically attached to Cincinnati. Conversely, Southern Indiana is more Southern than Midwestern, as it is culturally and — particularly in south central Indiana — economically attached to Louisville .Louisville, viewed as Midwestern in some analyses .Louisville is often described as both "the Gateway to the South" and "the northernmost Southern city and southernmost Northern city." While varying degrees of Northern cultural influence can be found in Kentucky outside of the Golden Triangle region, cities such as Owensboro, Bowling Green, and Paducah, along with most of the state's rural areas, have largely remained distinctly Southern in character.

827:

813:

likely well aware, the vast majority of the state's growth is occuring in the Golden Triange - the most Midwestern region of the state, and a region that is more likely to attract Northern immigration over Southern immigration. Clearly, the state is not changing by "leaps and bounds", so, in reality, any study from the 1970's forward regarding Kentucky is likely representative of the state's population. I never said that the Southern Focus Study holds "less" merit than my study, but the Changing Usage study has been, essentially, swept aside by you because of its findings (not surprising.) And again, while the Southern Focus Study currently presents no choices to residents of Border States other than "Southern" or "not Southern", the Changing Usage study allowed a more flexible selection - thus the agreement between the Changing Usage and Southern Focus studies on the "core South", and the disagreement about the "Border States."

2556:

the reason that there is a difference in the studies' findings is because a wide array of choices for regional identification were presented in one, and not in the other, and not because of a minor time difference. Studies are routinely cited on these pages that are 50, 60 years old, so a 20 year old study is hardly "dated" - especially when speaking of low-growth state like Kentucky that is not changing in the same manner demographicaly as states like North Carolina and Virginia. Date does not make one of those studies "superior" to the other, which is what your biased edit was attempting to portray. That's a lie, and a highly biased one. The difference in these two credible sources merely shows that the exact percentages for regional affinities in Kentucky are difficult to establish, which is, really, the entire point of the section in Cultural Variations.

518:"The Midwest is defined as the manufacturing portion of the East and West North Central census regions plus West Virginia and Kentucky cities along the Ohio River." "Within the Midwest, intra- and interregional trade also grew enormously...300 percent at Cincinnati, 150 percent at Louisville, and 900 percent at St. Louis." TABLE 4: Manufacturing Employment Size and Growth for the 20 Largest Industrial Cities in the Midwest - ...6. Detroit, MI 7. Louisville, KY 8. Indianapolis, IN." "The eight largest industrial centers as of 1880 contained half of the Midwest's industrial employment...the three largest in 1860 - Cincinnati, St. Louis, and Louisville - benefited from access to antebellum markets along the Ohio and Mississippi River system." Dr. David R. Meyer, The Journal of Economic History, Vol. 49, No. 4 (Dec., 1989), pp.921-937. 783:

so incompetent that he would include the largest city in Kentucky in a report on Midwestern cities, comparing its industrial influence to cities such as Detroit and Indianapolis, even if Dr. Meyer strongly believed that Kentucky is not in the Midwest. And as far as Louisvillian's nonsense, he has stated before that he will "not" compromise, is avoiding debate on his POV edits to Cultural Variations, and became enraged (as is his habit) when I posted the Changing Usage study, finding only a minority of Kentuckians using the term "South" to describe their state. He will never accept this study because it fundamentally rattles his highly biased view of this state, and he instead focuses on latching onto other editors' comments because he cannot debate the merit of his "edits" to this page.

2612:

very much wish it so, as to enforce his iron-clad, narrow-minded perception of things, through bias, into this article); the studies were conducted very differently and came to very different results. This shows that an "exact" number regional affinity in Kentucky will be difficult to establish; I insisted on keeping the section vague including removing exact percentages - something I've insisted on since day one, but Louisvillian relentlessly attempted to insert. I only inserted the 47.86% number as a counterbalance because Louisvillian insisted on inserting the exact number for his Southern Focus source, and then, of course, to remove any credibility to the lower Southern percentage by labeling the Changing Regions study as "post-dated" and "garbage", among other creative insults.

1056:

if I am "biased" for acknowledging that Kentucky is a Border State, then so are approximately 100.00% of cultural scholars and American geographers, because they all acknowledge that Kentucky is a Border State of the South-North. It is not an "either-or" choice, with the choices being "Southern" or "Border" - that's a notion that only exists in your head. I just wanted one credible source, a single one, arguing that Kentucky is not a Border State, and you can't produce it. Meanwhle I have Britannica, the scholarly literature, academic journals, and good old fashioned common sense stating that Kentucky is a Border State, sources that you can't logically deny (though I am impressed that you didn't label them as "hog wash" or "bullshit" this time...we're making progress!).

726:

been the last integrated institution of higher learning in the South until 1904, when the legislature passed a law requiring racial segregation in all state schools. Yet in the 1940s federal courts, led by Kentuckian Frederick M. Vinson, chief justice of the United States, began to break down those racial barriers in education. When the Court in 1954 fully outlawed segregation with its Brown v. Board of Education decision, Kentucky accepted the ruling and moved with few exceptions toward peaceful integration, a model for the South. Kentucky adopted the first state civil rights act in the South in 1966, and a similarly path-breaking open housing law followed in 1968. National leaders like Kentucky’s Whitney Young, Jr., were instrumental in the effort

2388:

phonetically reproduced here but is substantially more genteel and less nasal than Bob Hinkle’s twang. The broadly defined “Texas accent” began to form, Bailey explained, when two populations merged here in the mid-nineteenth century. Settlers who migrated from Louisiana, Alabama, and Mississippi brought with them what would later become the Lower South Dialect (its drawl left an imprint on East Texas), while settlers from Tennessee and Kentucky brought with them the South Midland Dialect (its twang had a greater influence in West Texas). Added to the mix of Anglo settlers from the Deep South and Appalachia who began talking to each other was an established Spanish-speaking population and an influx of Mexican, German, and Czech immigrants.

2041:

fight the victory was won when almost lost by the cavalry charge of William Washington, and the free use of the bayonet by that peerless soldier, your own John Eager Howard." Cowpens was fought by troops from Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, and Georgia. And, from the War of 1812, "All, too, readily concede that the brilliant land-fights of that war were in defence of New Orleans, Mobile, Craney Island and Baltimore, all fought by Southern troops on Southern soil." He goes on to state "But the unmaritime South claims, among the naval heroes of that period, Decatur, of Maryland; MacDonough, of Delaware... A very large proportion of the naval heroes of the war of 1812 came from Maryland. "

1368:

in the White House. Part of it might just be that most of the states in question are so damn big; people from one end of any given state are often very different in their attitudes and lifestyles than people from the other. Northern Virginia, where my family lives, is in some ways (mostly cultural) not much like southern or south-western Virginia. So maybe, given the choice, people would be more likely to say that eastern Arkansas is more southern (drive five minutes out of Memphis and you're in Arkansas, after all) and western Arkansas is more ... What? Western? Anyway, I'm thinking that this kind of feeling is probably what's behind some of the controversy we see around here.

538:"Someone from Kentucky, though, might conceivably opt to be a part of East, Midwest, or South, depending on which label had the more intense personal cultural attraction for him or her." TABLE 1: Summary of Major Regional Affiliations, Kentucky - East: 40 West: 6 South: 112 Midwest: 76. "A small area of Kentucky, including Louisville, Lexington, and suburban Cincinnati falls into a three-way transition zone. No strong associations exist there between regional label and age, suggesting that the zone is stable." Dr. James R. Shortridge, Annals of the Association of American Geographers, Vol. 77, No. 3 (Sep., 1987), pp. 325-336 2542:

participants a full range of choices. What you (seem to) wish to imply is that because the S. Focus study is more recent, it is automatically more accurate and more meritorious. This is not so. I hardly believe that Kentucky has "radically shifted" its regional allegiances since 1987, which is common sense given the state's flat population growth. In any event, the dates of the studies are quite evident, in the citation, for anybody interested. The only reason you are so adamant in pulling them into the article is to introduce the (false) idea that the study that matches your strong bias is the only one that should matter.

793:

changed what I had written and I have yet to see one useful contribution that you have made to this encyclopedia, other than removing information that you disagree with), I would have said something along the lines of "Some studies suggest that only a minority of Kentuckians would use the term 'South' to describe their state." Of course I never did this; it was my attempt from the beginning to create equity in the treatment of the state's Southern and other factions. The edit also now reads "Northern Kentucky is heavily influenced by the Midwest...Southern Indiana is highly Southern in comparison to most of the Midwest."

1546:

those, if websites as we know them existed back then (gosh... 13 years seems like such a long time, when you look at it that way). So who knows--I'd say a bit of self-parody in one context isn't beyond the pale for somebody who otherwise has strong feelings about what it is to be southern. Hell, I joke about southern, northern, and everything else all the time, but I also take it seriously when it seems like it really matters. But maybe that's giving this guy too much credit. Actually, I'm starting to wonder if he's the same guy whose edit I reverted about three weeks ago after he removed the southern states map (

583:

Kentucky suburbs would identify as Midwesterners. This is what I represented in my edit to the Cultural Variations section - I never once made a statement along the lines that "Kentucky is a Midwestern state", even though some sources do include the entirety of Kentucky in the Midwest. The Golden Triangle region may be a small part of Kentucky in terms of land area, but it holds a majority of the state's population and its three largest urban centers, as well as the majority of the state's economy and population growth. Just as it is inaccurate to portray Kentucky as a Midwestern state

1426:. The states in red were in the Confederacy and have historically been regarded as "The South" in an emotional and traditional sense. Sometimes they are collectively referred to as "Dixie." Those in stripes were considered "Border" states, and gave varying degrees of support to the Southern cause although they remained in the Union. (Note that this image depicts the original, trans-Allegheny borders of Virginia, and so does not include West Virginia, which seceded in 1863 to join the Union. See image below for post-1863 borders.)" 703:

nature of his edits to my paragraph under Cultural Variations. Since there is no debate ensuing regarding the relative merit of my edits vs. Louisvillian's under the Cultural Variations section, I am left to believe that my edit is not being challenged, and that instead these editors wish to attempt to argue that I have "placed" Kentucky in the Midwest, which I have not. I will, however, argue to represent to the fullest the truth that Kentucky is a Border State with a heavy Midwestern influence, as I always have.

1483:

places like Pennsylvania (and yeah, I've seen it too), but I've seen stranger things—that very flag being worn on t-shirts and jacket way up in Montreal, where I now live, for instance (!!!). When I'm in a good mood I kind of just raise an eyebrow at that sort of thing; when I'm not, I just want to shake some sense into these people. I mean, really... But flying (or wearing) a flag doesn't make you southern, any more than wearing pants fifteen sizes too big and saying things like "yo" and "nigga" makes you ghetto.

3230: 3528: 31: 886:. Louisville, viewed as Midwestern in some analyses and as Southern in others, is often described as both "the Gateway to the South" and "the northernmost Southern city and southernmost Northern city." While varying degrees of Northern cultural influence can be found in Kentucky outside of the Golden Triangle region, cities such as Owensboro, Bowling Green, and Paducah, along with most of the state's rural areas, have largely remained distinctly Southern in character. 713:

via a proportion, instead of absolute numbers, reveals the relative importance of slavery in Kentucky as of 1860. Even a proportion doesn't tell the full story, however, because slavery was concentrated in the state; slaves were virtually nonexistent in most of the state east of modern day I-75, essentially the Appalachian regions. The slave percentages in Border State KY as of 1860 were lower than those in FL, GA, AL, SC, NC, MS, VA, TX, AR, LA, and TN.

1146:

Alabama/Georgia/Arkansas, is never included in the Midwest in any sources, and has 90%+ of its population identify with the South in credible sources - well, then you'll be able to attract some believers to your asanine worldview. Until then, the rest of us aren't going for it. You're a foul-mouthed obstructionist troll, and with comments like that, patently ignorant when it comes to culture, one who was spelling "border" with an "a" up until recently.

3411:(sourced - no random comments) comparisons with other adjacent regions, or by referring to budget figures for weed eradication, etc. The reason for the sentence (which by the way is unsourced for the existing list) is to highlight the parts which are the biggest problem. Removing the "particularly" aspect and just listing everywhere it's a nuisance would eliminate any value to the reader, since the related topic already has a map (unsourced ;-). 1264:

like other Midwestern industrial cities. Louisville is consistently included in Midwest organizations. One can argue from history that Louisville was more Southern from the 1880s through the 1930s, but 1940s industrialization changed everything, and we haven't turned back since. I refuse to submit to the anti-historical, anti-realistic position that Louisville is Southern. We have got a few Southern graces, to be sure, but that's about it.

1451:, who removed the map altogether—and whose screen name,oddly enough, seems to translate into something like "barroom cat cellar"—though that also meant reverting a legitimate edit concerning Appalachia, but he can always put that back in). I still don't see what the problem with adding another map would be (see my comments above), but, at least in the meantime, hanging onto this one seems like the right thing to do, in my opinion. 3000:

would see this definition as omitting the Deep South, skirting around it in some fashion. Moreover, it's easy to find various agencies and commercial groups who have a headquarters somewhere and draw a 500-mile circle to denote their notion of a region. A well-sourced topic would use definitions from agencies whose expertise is in the underlying attributes (economic interdependencies,Enter away message text here. social, etc).

882:

opting instead for the term "Midwestern" or more neutral regional labels . For example, the culture of Northern Kentucky is heavily influenced by Midwestern culture, as this region is culturally and economically attached to Cincinnati. Conversely, Southern Indiana is highly Southern in comparison to most of the Midwest, as it is culturally and — particularly in south central Indiana — economically attached to

2664:

on the issue. That's quite pathetic, and you're well aware of it; when something is not as you view it, it is rigged, old, obsolete, stupid, "crap", etc. etc. I had (and have) no intention of trying to battle your ignorance ad nauseum on that site; I simply provided some other sources to balance out your argumentation. And based on the votes (and people's pre-conceived notions), I'm hardly in a minority.

1374:

accents, with differing vocabularies to go with them, and that they differentiate themselves as people in terms of geographical distinctions that, to a North American, seem almost hilariously minute--the south of England, the west, the south west, the midlands, the northern midlands, the north of England, etc. Hell, people from Cornwall, an English county one square mile smaller than Long Island, have

1241:

a Border State. Civil War history has played almost no part at all in the discussions/debate that have taken place over the last several days...that's what the "historic" map is for, but trust me, there most definitely are cultural nuances in all of the Border States...even "super Northern" Delaware. I don't think we're changing the map system again, since there was a multi-month discussion about it.

1081:. No (sane) people ever question the notion that Kentucky is a Border State, but calling it "Southern" will offend many Southern purists, as TexasReb notes, just as calling it "Midwestern" will many offend Midwestern purists, such as Rjensen. I am not a regional/geographical purist, and I think that the purists are idiots. In fact, in the early days of this page the sole map of the South included 852:

indisputable fact. Instead, you wish to take the viewpoint of one single study - the Southern Focus one - and hold it as sacred, paramount, and above all other information here because of its findings, including my "predated hog washed" peer-reviewed articles. Not a single one of your other verifiable sources says anything about "majorities" or "good majorities" in the state; they simply label it

1880:

pointed out before, North Carolina's major cities are seeing a heavy influx of northerners. Does that make the Triangle no longer part of the South? Maybe culturally, but certainly not geographically. But, so far you have not even given the first bit of evidence to back up the removal of Maryland and Virginia. Again, what is the basis of your argument, other than "I don't like it?"

2675:

dramatic shift as one crosses the state line. I have no problem with info on Virginia from the Southern Focus study, because in my view the entire point of that section is to raise the point that there is not one "master study" that has answered all of the questions regarding regional affinity - nor will there likely ever be, until somebody starts going door-to-door and taking notes.

2622:

No, the "Southern Focus Survey", which has been placed on a God-like pedestal on this page, does not hold all the answers to regional identity questions. I have no problem with the section as is written now. I will not accept a "compromise" in which an artificial measure - in this case, date - is used to demean one of my sources because on editor disagrees with its findings.

2734:(i.e references to dark red, medium red, and stripped ). To take it on your own to make such changes seems to me very out of line. For that reason, I am going to undo it. Again, NOT because I think you are wrong about south Florida (or wherever) just that a lot of work and time has been spent and any major changes need to be discussed first. What say the rest of y'all? 948:

Southerners. Arguing anything else is idiocy. The words "many" and "some" accomplish this, but you will not accept it, again, because you believe that your sources are the only meritorious ones in this discussion. This is not "compromise": this is POV and an attempt to override all other sources - including mine, which disagreed ONLY on terms such as "good majorities".

1351:

into the union, that kind of thing. I must say it's a pretty cool map. Anyway, perhaps we could copy it from them and display it someplace on the Southern U.S. page. On the other hand, this article isn't really supposed to be about the Civil War, per se, so maybe that won't be an idea that agrees with everybody. Still, anyone who's curious ought to go check it out.

1479:

thing, which you'll find everywhere. A few years back, I was at a wedding in Little Falls, a little town in upstate NY, and let me tell you, that bunch was about as "good ol' boy" as anything I've seen back in Virginia (apart from that odd Rachel Ray accent that everyone has). But nobody's going to be adding New York to our list anytime soon, I'm pretty sure.

1096:

majority" that is ONLY supported by one single study of yours, and attempted to shove it in, at the detriment and total exclusion of my studies. As both Stevietheman and TexasReb have acknowledged, I am going out of my way to negotiate and be reasonable here, even to the point of debating this purely idiotic notion that Kentucky is not a Border State.

857:

flawed line of reasoning, I would insist on inserting the phrase "Some studies have found that only a minority of Kentuckians use the term "South" to describe the state" - but I never did this, though my peer-reviewed study found it. As I have shown, there is no shortage of verifiable sources that include Kentucky in the Midwest.

602:

Everyone knows that. It does not make Kentucky "midwestern" or "northern" --it makes Kentucky a border state, which everyone knows. We really don't want editing of a serious article by anyone who seems to be unfamiliar with the scholarship on Kentucky --its history, culture, politics and economics. Look at some scholarly experts:

1999:

There is a statue of him in Shady Side. Taney was from Anne Arundel County... There is a statue in downtown Annapolis recognizing the city's role as a slave port. Things must have changed since I was there last. But, yes, there are Waffle Houses in Maryland. Check out their website. Southern food? Check Knowledge :)

1040:

erased any fragments of credibility that you may have left. I would sugggest that you return to discussing your edits under Cultural Variations, because continuing to say that "Kentucky is not a Border state" isn't going to get you anywhere. That's simply not in accordance with reality, and it's not even debatable.

1929:: In Richmond, Virginia! How silly of me to forget! So we've got history (CSA), geography (Mason-Dixon line), and culture (no matter what might be happening in NOVA, the entire state--NOVA included--generally has more in common with southern attitudes and culture than it does with New England, The midwest, etc.). 3283:

generals from the Five Tribes that Tedickey mentioned above. As with any border area, no answer is completely right. Just as Missouri and Illinois have regions which have or had an identifiable Southern culture, so does Oklahoma. Its probably best to treat Oklahoma along the same lines as the other examples.

2202:

that way, yeah, it is". How much more does he have to spell it out for you? GEOGRAPHIC US, not CULTURAL. I'm guessing it's simply because californians don't want to be lumped into the same group as southeasterners (CULTURAL southerners) because of their politics, in which case it becomes about prejudice.

2910:

is the same thing as the South Central US. Where does it say that? Are you saying "South Central" and "Mid South" are the same thing because the terms are similar? I want to have a real discussion about this, not just you being snarky and reverting. I'm doing this is good faith, as I'm sure are you. --

3433:

Your going to say that a newspaper website from Beckley is not a reliable source? What more do you want? I have given you plenty of proof, unlike GA, MD and eastern KY which has no source at all what so ever. (Eastern KY and Southern WV are pretty much the same, and a state line can't stop kudzu from

3141:

All I can say is, let's not be hasty on this. Just as the decision to create and caption some excellent maps came with a LOT of discussion and debate, so especially should anything so extreme as actually "de-listing" the whole thing. Remember, at one time this article WAS rated as top of the line.

2999:

in the context of the links gives an area which does not necessarily include northern Mississippi (it's not mentioned). Adding Arkansas and/or Tennessee gives an entirely different picture than the South Central United States (which of course is no better-sourced than this topic). The casual reader

2733:

I disagree totally. NOT because I object to the map necessarily, and what you say, but because a LOT of talk and discussion went into the previous map before it was put into place (see Archives). Also, the present caption/tagline, which was worded for the previous, makes NO sense with the current map

2684:

I think the dates of the studies should be noted, as well as the fact that they asked their questions in quite a different way, which could (and probably did) influence the results. This should not be a big deal. Just state these facts and don't make everyone read the footnotes to find out when the

2663:

2. Back down on CityData.com? Uhm, no...one poll on that site found a majority of Kentuckians viewing Louisville as Midwestern, while another poll was split right down the center on the issue, despite your efforts to rig the poll by spamming random users to vote (in favor of your opinion, of course)

2650:

3. For the sake of preventing another edit war, we can include the dates inside the section - and to compensate, I have re-written the section to emphasize the fact that the methods of the studies, not the dates (i.e., one of them presented choices, while the other one didn't) was reponsible for the

2621:

As I first said a full three weeks ago, the section is still accomplishing its purpose without either of the studies. This is probably the best course, as it prevents the perpetual troll, or other trolls in the future, from inserting bias in an area on which adequate research has not been conducted.

2545:

3. In any event, mentioning the exact numbers is sure to stir up controvery anyhow, which is why I removed them. This is an extraordinarily complex dynamic, and no one study can possibly claim to have exact answers. For accuracy it is necessary to mention all points, and a fair compromise, which I

2277:

Some perspective should be kept on the relatively short history of Texas' "Southern" past. It was a booming frontier for just a couple of decades before the Civil War, not some long-established region of Southerners. People went there from IN and MI and all over the Midwest, not just the South. Give

2040:

My point from the link above was that from a speech in 1887, the first usage of "The Old South" that I know of (please correct me if there is an earlier), Delaware and Maryland were included. For example, "...defeat of Tarleton at Cowpens , all fought by Southern troops on Southern soil. In the last

1945:

Let me help guide the original poster. Since the main thesis seems to be "Virginia borders Maryland, thus it is not Southern, because Maryland is not Southern," your first burden of proof seems to be proving that Maryland is always considered a Northern state. From there, you can work on Virginia.

1905:

No, tard, no. Virginia borders a Northern state, hence it is a border state. North Carolina borders a border state, hence it is...North Carolina, a Southern state. Your argument doesn't work. I don't think anyone would try to say that Arkansas is a Northern state simply because it borders Missouri (a

1887:

Northern Virginia is NOT part of the South; it's nothing but a bunch of Yankees now. It's just not part of the South anymore. And the whole North Carolina argument doesn't work; North Carolina is surrounded by Southern states, while Virginia borders Maryland. This is why West Virginia is also thought

1641:

I agree that it's a good idea and yet a difficult one to implement. If you look at of the United States article, you'll find that it contains a map of the country with all states labeled, but it's also about three times the size of our current maps. Is there some way to shrink down the image as it's

1545:

Yeah, I looked at his user page and saw that "Asstree, AL" thing, too, so I followed the Google links, and I came up with nothing but blatantly farcical pages. But then again, I (like him) also used to go to a college in the D.C. area, and I knew plenty of folks who'd have been proud of websites like

1517:

Basically, you seem to think that, because most of the South leans rightward, politically, while Maryland and Delaware are more left-leaning in their voting records, therefore they're not southern. That's a pretty narrow definition of what southern and what's not, my friend. Suppose Louisiana started

1446:

Well, as the guy who started the latest discussion about West Virginia, I think I understand your position, Stallions2010. The trouble is, even the map you linked to is misleading, since it shows West Virginia as a separate state in 1860, which it wasn't. Anyway, I revised my annotation to that map's

1429:

However, this is confusing because of the last statement. It seems that all borders, not just Virginia's, are those of 1860. With a change, the caption could be slightly altered to convey the idea that all of these states share commonalities to this day, but also that all were in the Confederacy, and

1240:

Have you studied Kentucky, ever visited the state, and ever spoken with residents on non-rural Kentucky...or (since you said this is "your opinion") are you basing this assumption on stereotypes and presentations of Kentuckians on TV? Likewise, Oklahoma is solid red in this map of yours...it is also

983:

Kentucky has a heavy Southern element, and I'll be the first to acknowledge heavier than any of the other Border States, but it is still a Border State - many call it the "quintessential Border State", in fact. You won't find sources that argue that Kentucky is a "non-Border State of the South." In

978:

Kentucky is a Border State, and green is a color. In location between North and South, behavior in the Civil War (and before), and subsequent culture for the last 140 years, Kentucky is a Border State. In your mind, Border State = non-Southern; not true. That's your definition, and again, you want

915:

Kentucky encompasses a curious mixture of poverty and wealth, ugliness and beauty, North and South...Kentucky life-styles are a little more Southern than those of states north of the Ohio River, but differences are minor and in most cases are the result of smaller populations and a more rural outlook

782:

I am not "misquoting/misreding" this study, as pp. 924 does include KY and WV in the Midwest. Again, I repeat, this is stated explicitly in the text, and Louisville is mentioned explicitly in the content of Midwestern cities. Apparently, Rjensen, in his eternal erudition, believes that Dr. Meyer is

737:

Now, does Louisvillian wish to discuss his pointless editing of the paragraph that I wrote in Cultural Variations, or does he/she wish to continue to debate endlessly on other areas? If he/she is certain of the superiority of his edits to that section, I would like to see a line of reasoning for them

702:

Thank you for ignorning the points that I just presented regarding Kentucky's politics in the realm of Civil Rights. In any event, Rjensen is still insistent on a full-fledged debate regarding Kentucky (which was not the purpose of the discussion) and Louisvillian will not address the POV, pointless

601:

Gator87 doesn't get it. We're talking about the state of Kentucky over the last 200 years, and he's talking about a couple suburban counties over the last few decades, using information he made up himself. Kentucky, like Maryland, West Virginia and Missouri was a slave state that supported the Union.

3282:

Anecdotally, as someone who has lived within thirty minutes of driving or less from Oklahoma for the majority of the past eight years, I haven't really heard any allusions to Oklahoma being considered a Southern state. At the same time, I've also visited the grave of one of the Confederate Cherokee

2909:

South Central US or "The region centered on the Memphis Metropolitan Statistical Area, including portions of West Tennessee, northern Mississippi and northeastern Arkansas, as well as the Missouri Bootheel and extreme northwestern Alabama." And the unsourced example you've made is that the Mid-South

2797:

is reverting whenever I add in that the Mid South can also be described as the general area with Tennessee, Arkansas, etc, saying there are no reliable sources. Just above I listed various links to various organizations called "Mid South" which are in Tennessee, Mississippi, Kentucky, and elsewhere.

2611:

Regarding your invented "conflict", the authors, dates, and affiliated institutions of the studies have always been available through the citation...so this is really a non-issue. Again, the difference in date has nothing to do with the different findings of the studies (though "Louisvillian" would

2601:

First of all, I don't seek credit for edits here, but it was my idea to create the Kentucky paragragh in this area - I researched, wrote, and cited it from scratch. You have not contributed a damn thing in this section (other than trying to reduce it to nothing, because you don't want anything that

2541:

2. Date has nothing to do with the relevance of these studies - what you have failed to acknowledge is that the two studies posed their questions very differently. While the Southern Focus Study presented no choices to participants(as another editor has acknowledged), the Changing Usage study gave

2465:

This section roams in time, and it's difficult to know when editors think Southern culture was established. The 19th c. was a time of great migration, even after the Civil War, and the 20th c. accelerated the pace in some areas. Nothing was as static as suggested here. Stability was usually of only

2302:

While certainly there were settlers from other regions (as there were, to one degree or another, in all other states of the South in their early days), the *vast* majority of those who settled Texas from the time it was open to colonization by Mexico were from the older states of the southeast. And

2171:

The South does not include the Southwest, the Midwest is not in the West, the North does not specifically exclude the West but is never used when talking about the Pacific Northwest, and the Northeast does not include the Midwest which is also in the northeast quadrant of the contiguous US. They are

2034:

Further, if you follow one of the links currently on the page (sorry, don't remember which one, but will locate it if need be), you will read the author's opinion that Southern culture was birthed in the Chesapeake, which makes sense, since that is where the first settlements were in the South (i.e.

1895:

But, by your own argument, Virginia is not Southern. Thus, North Carolina is *not* bordered by Southern states on all sides. Thus, North Carolina is a border state. Thus, North Carolina is not part of the South. Thus, South Carolina borders a Northern state, thus it is a border state, thus it is

1775:

Agreed with the previous poster...This is a fascinating debate, one that we have had countless times already. I encourage everyone to look in the archived discussion to see all of the data that has already been presented and discussed about what states can be considered "Southern." If anyone wants

1620:

from the last comment before yours by using colons. If you don't know what I mean, just hit the "edit" button and look at this comment of mine--it's indented one space, so you know it's me and not a continuation of the last person's thought. This all probably seems very anal-retentive, but it's very

1482:

As far as southern influence goes, you're probably right that the south influences the way people in the rest of the country behave, but then again, this page isn't called "Places Influenced by the Southern United States." I'll admit I'm a bit mystified when I see the confederate flag being flown in

1350:

map that not only reflects such things as the fact that most of the west and midwest consisted of territories rather than states at the time of the Civil War, but also shows very clearly when various states seceded from the union, when they officially became confederate, when they were admitted back

1135:

As for my sources, every single one has come from a university, encyclopedia, or academic journal on this page...so, again, I really could care less what you, in your eternal omnipotence, think about them. When on my side I have dozezns of such cites, including Britannica which states that cultural

1062:

And seriously, your first source is a quote from Richard Nixon of all people. And no, culture is not a quantitative measure, which is precisely why I have insisted on the word "many". I did not insert the phrase "some studies suggest that only a minority of Kentuckians may identify as Southerners",

1055:

As I said, I'll be the first to acknowledge that Kentucky is the most Southern of the Border States - but it is still a Border State. You provided sources that label Kentucky as a Southern state, but not a single source that question the notion that it is a Border State. Again, you won't find any;

869:

Kentucky, at the confluence of the Upper South or Upland South and the Midwest, served as an important Border State during the Civil War and has long exhibited great cultural variety across different regions of the state. Some studies suggest that while the vast majority ( have since changed it to a

861:

are not fooling anyone else; your actions are POV, and to you "compromise" means "only MY sources matter, and all of YOUR sources are garbage." Added to the fact that your edit added nothing of value to the article and my paragraph, I am not going to allow my sources and edits to be pushed aside to

856:

Southern, a contention that nobody has ever challenged. I'm not talking about polls on UrbanPlanet or SkyscraperCity, before you proceed to post 20 of those here - I'm talking about hard research. Your study found a majority, and mine found a minority; both agree on the term "many." If I had your

836:

Well, I'm hardly surprised to hear that you don't believe that Kentucky is a Border State - you've been asserting that view since the beginning - and I also really don't care. Kentucky's status as a Border State is such a basic, fundamental, and indisputable fact of elementary school-level American

826:

820:

As far as your study being conducted in the 1970's and 60's it states that nowhere, in the text and instead on gives the year 1987 as it's time frame. The Southern Focus study has survey nearly twice as many people, and has been conducted for over a decade, is more recent, is more persistant, and is

812:

And your last point; "since the study was done in '87, it is an inaccurate portrayal of Kentucky. During the period from 1990-2005, Kentucky made the "astounding" leap from about 3.7 million residents to about 4 million residents. Many of Kentucky's counties actually lost residents, and as you are

712:

That being said, it is amusing that watch the attempt to lump Kentucky, a Border State, into the same categories as states of the "pure" South. As of 1860, Jefferson County, KY counted 11.5% of it's population as slaves, while the state of Kentucky hovered around 24%. Again, looking at the numbers

444:

Kentucky as "Midwestern"?? Not according to the historians of Kentucky or the Midwest. They all classify it as South. Look at the Encyclopedia of the Midwest, of Kentucky, and the South. Unanimous agreement here. What happened is that southerners from Kentucky moved into southern Indiana and left a

372:

Well, I'd say all states that were in the Confederacy are no doubt Southern. Also, any state that has the majority of residents considering themselves Southerners is part of the South. (For all y'all Deep South purists, that includes Texas, Oklahoma, Virginia, Kentucky, and Florida. Y'all aren't the

3455:

To summarize your latest comment: since the existing sentence is poorly sourced, you feel impelled to add a "me-too" to the sentence. In contrast, I pointed out that the way to resolve the dispute is to find reliable sources. Googling on "extent of kudzu coverage" finds many hits, including a few

3151:

I agree (and am probably "guilty" myself) that a LOT of what is contained has far too much POV and unsourced "facts." At the same time, let's not lose sight of that "The South" -- and all that entails -- is an extremely emotional and heart-felt subject for many, so naturally there ARE going to be

1998:

To be quite honest, I am surprised you are from Anne Arundel county and that you consider NOVA more "Southern" than home. Edgewater? Mayo? Deale? Shady Side? Heck, Janet Owens, your previous county executive, is the descendant of Benjamin Welch Owens, winner of the Confederate Medal of Honor.

1982:

Just curious, are you from Tidewater Maryland (Anne Arundel and south, Eastern Shore), Virginia (Hampton Roads, Eastern Shore), or elsewhere? Where were your friends in NOVA born? When I lived in Maryland (Annapolis) and Virginia (Fredericksburg) you could commonly get anything from crabs to frog

1765:

This article is about a geographic sub section of the US. Although there is more to the article than that, unless you can point to reliable sources that state that Maryland, Virginia, Kentucky, Florida, and whatever other state you wish to exclude from the article are never considered part of that

1749:

Which means absolutely nothing. The South has to end somewhere. Virginia is the South (culturally, linguistically), Maryland is not. Just because a minority of Virginia's population in NoVa doesn't speak with a Southern accent or consider themselves Southern doesn't make Virginia a border state.

1513:

Whoahhhhh there, buddy--take a deep breath and relax. If you've looked at the rest of this talk page then you already know that major changes to the article, especially when they have to do with what is and isn't going to be included in the South, tend to require a heck of a lot of talking-through.

1414:

I read it. And this is probably the first time ever I'm disagreeing with TexasReb. :) The thing is, we, as people with a large amount of knowledge about the South, understand the historic map. However, readers of this article, who are new and researching this topic, would not. We have explained the

1382:

a different language; Cornish is totally incomprehensible to an English speaker, and in fact has dialects of its own. And most of Europe is like this. At least eleven seperate languages (not dialects, but languages) are spoken in various regions of the Iberian peninsula, a smaller geographical area

1367:

It sounds like an interesting study, Texasreb, and if it was conducted after 92, then you might be right about the Clinton thing. But on the other hand, I don't know if we're ever going to get a real consensus around here regarding what counts as a "Southern" state and what doesn't, no matter who's

1310:

a Confederate state, as my over-zealous post above (wrong date and all) would indicate. I'm saying that the map in question is misleading because it treats trans-Allegheny Virginia as though it were a still-extant state, and so effectively denying the fact that West Virginia even exists, never mind

1125:

And again, you don't understand that culture is a qualitative, not quantitative, measure. I don't care. Or that there is no one study that serves as an irrefutable point of reference for a region. To that end, if you insist on having the 79% figure in the article, so be it. I'll just balance it

1105:

You still don't understand that there is no "Border State - Southern state" dichotomy, never will, don't understand the word "compromise", never will, and still expect to curse, act like a baby, and expect the rest of us to bow over to your sources and viewing on things, because you've been able to

752:

Not true. Verify pp. 924 of the study, in the footnotes: "The Midwest is defined as the manufacturing portion of the East and West North Central census regions, plus West Virginia and Kentucky cities along the Ohio River." Furthermore, please note the inclusion and specific mention of Louisville

722:

Jim Crow and mistreatment of blacks was real and harsh in the South as well as in the Border States, but it was usually significantly less severe in the Border States. For example, while Georgia and Alabama passed 27 Jim Crow statutes from the end of the Civil War to the 1950's and Virginia passed

670:

Rjensen still is apparently not aware of what is being debated here. But if he wishes to digress and discuss the politics of slavery in Kentucky, he is no doubt aware that cultural scholars acknowledge that the non-plantation based slavery in Kentucky differed greatly in its severity and brutality

267:

Sunlight07, I have noticed that you have recently modified the North United States page to remove all references to Maryland being a Southern Border State in certain contexts, which the discussion on the page indicates you did without permission of the pages contributors. I will revert the page to

3366:

The sentence and the cite don't agree. The sentence says "particularly big problem", while the cite - which by the way is not a reliable source - only says things such as "Patches of the vine are evident in much of the state", "has a distinct presence", etc. A reliable source would have numbers,

2644:

2. I stand corrected actually - you did add one sentence, a stub of information that you copied from someone's earlier work and pasted back into the Variations section, which primarly stated that Northern Kentucky is Midwestern while Louisville is Southern (a dubious claim, but I'm not re-opening

2555:

You're going to continue to ignore the differences in the way that the studies were conducted, but I'm not. These are not two identical surveys, conducted with the same question, with one merely being a more recent version of the other. And again, date has nothing to do with the relevance here -

2362:

Parkwells? Here is a excerpt from an article on "Texas speech" which appeared a couple of years ago in Texas Monthly magazine, which I always thought was a very good analogy (or metaphor) for the state is terms of its Southern identification. That is to say, essentially a Southern state, but not a

2201:

If you can't see by cutting the US into halves that the ENTIRE geographic southern US goes from mid-California to north Carolina/virignia, you must be a complete moron. I just asked 3 of my coworkers if California is in the geographic south if I drew it out, and they said "I never thought about it

2046:

Ok, done beating a dead horse. So, even though this is not a scholarly paper, but rather a speech from a former commander in the Army of Northern Virginia, it is clear that he includes all of those states, and others, in "The Old South." I guess it comes down to, do you want a modern, i.e. "what

1263:

Anyone who is actually from Louisville would *never* say that Louisville is "Southern, period". ABJECT NONSENSE. Louisville has long been far more Midwestern in culture than Southern. Louisville was a major stronghold of the Union in the Civil War. Since WWII, Louisville has been organized much

902:

Truly amazing. Again, to get back to the basics - Kentucky is a Border State, green is a color, and leaves are known to grow on trees. And for the record, it's spelled "Border"...there's no "a" in the word. Or if you'd like to persist and be stubborn, I can provide, say, 8 or 9 dozen scholarly,

881:

during the Civil War and has long exhibited great cultural variety across different regions of the state. Some studies suggest that while many Kentuckians consider themselves and their state to be Southern, many others do not readily identify with the South or consider themselves to be "Southern",

725:

Although segregation of the black and white races was in effect in most public spheres, Kentucky had never denied its black citizens the right to vote as did many Southern states. The first black elected to a Southern legislature after Reconstruction was in Kentucky in the 1930s. Berea College had

489:

I don't think anyone is arguing that Kentucky as a whole is midwestern, just that portions of it have substantial midwestern influence. Louisville is far more Midwestern in culture than Southern, for instance. But Louisville isn't much like the rest of the state, as most Kentuckians will readily

244:

Both these discussions are missing the point that Knowledge is not the place for original research. This page should simply report what reliable sources say. If different sources disagree on whether Maryland or Delaware are "southern", then we should report that too. It's not our job to resolve

3410:

topic notes that it is present all the way up to New York. Using a source equivalent to the ones given for West Virginia, another editor could simply paste in New York - and be just as nonfactual. A factual source for this would have some way to support the "particulary big problem", whether by

3309:

Just in reference to the census map, Maryland is most emphatically NOT a southern state. If they wanted to do it by region, it should have been included with Delaware, Virginia and maybe New Jersey and Pennsylvania as mid-Atlantic states. But if you absolutely have to fit them into Northeast or

3261:

I'll go with the Census map, but will admit it was a surprise to me. Still, I think the text should say this is where the Census Bureau classifies it, and/or give other sources. To me (admittedly having spent most of my life on the coasts, so the middle geography starts shifting around in my mind

3014:

Fair enough, but "Tennessee and some surrounding states" would get Mississppi in some cases. It's not a region that's defined officially anywhere, which is my point. I'm not saying it's not the South Central US (although I haven't seen much evidence so far that it is), I'm saying that some people

2674:

5. I removed the phrase "ironically", from your sentence on Virginia. That's hardly encyclopedic language and one should not disrupt Knowledge articles to make a point, though you have a history of that. There was no such language in my sentence on Tennessee, which I added simply to reveal the

2565:

And no, you sure as hell haven't written a damn thing original in the Cultural Variations section, and the Edit History proves that - I wrote the entire portion on Kentucky, provided the citations, and you have been constantly attacking it, line-by-line, since day one because you don't want it on

1879:

Maryland and Northern Virginia are part of the South, geographically. You may not consider them to be Southern culturally (but, blanket statements about an entire state are generally fairly ignorant), but that does not change the geography, which is the entire point of this article. As has been

1823:

Sorry, but Virginia is plain not a Southern state. It's partly southern, but the northern half or so is so influenced by Maryland that there is almost no Southern culture left at all. The Southern accent does not pervade there, nor does traditional Southern food. Confederate flags in the area are

1076:

As far as my personal beliefs, which you seem to question, I will accept Kentucky as either Southern or Midwestern, but always, always a Border State. This discussion has shown that there are no shortage of sources that place Kentucky in either of the two regions. I believe, through my personal

1039:

Again, I cannot even believe, really, that one could expect to rationally challenge Kentucky's status as a Border State. It is nonsense, it is a flat out, blatant denial of 150 years of history and culture, and if you expected us to believe that you are NPOV, making a claim along these lines has

587:

Illinois, so is it inaccurate to also deny the quixotic, split nature of this state, treating it like Tennessee or North Carolina. The state's behavior in the Civil War and subsequent borderline politics and economy for the last 140 years - never quite Southern, but never quite Northern - should

582:

in that region, not a minor one, as it is in the rest of Kentucky. While Lexington leans marginally toward Southern culture and Louisville is highly split (at least in the eyes of many residents, though many strongly believe that the region is in the Midwest), a majority of residents in Northern

2640:

1. As of late, you seem to like to say "you're not backing down", apparently to try to intimidate people with whom you disagree. I assure you, I am young, educated, and not going anywhere regarding this issue and your continued attempts to insert bias into this section (and this subject area in

2537:

1. It should be evident to anybody who's followed your edits that your only concern here is either removing or invalidating any studies that disagree with your opinions. I do not grant good faith because it's fairly evident that this is the only person of this edit - you have not contributed any

2267:

Hi, JWB. It means that the citizens of those counties voted to secede along with the rest of VA when the vote was taken on May 23, 1861. If you click on the link I provided above you will see in green those counties that voted for secession. I would heartily recommend Mr. Curry's book for anyone

1957:

think of Virginia in general as Southern, but most of my Virginia friends don't agree with me...:(. That being said, Northern Virginia is definitely different than the rest of the state. It's not completely Southern like most of VA, but it's not identical to MD either. It really is like a border

1578:

This discussion is getting us nowhere. I really don't care whether you're one person or many people, Nanaszczebrzeszyn. The point is that you can give us examples of southerners you don't think most people would think of as southern until the cows come home, and you're still not contributing any

1289:

I strongly disagree. Florida is the South. Just because of cultural variations, you can't exclude it. The northern parts are definitely more Southern in nature than the southern parts, but the state as a whole is more Southern than not. Sure, Miami may not exactly whistle Dixie, but Florida as a

1115:

Kentucky is a Border State. As I was the first to acknowledge, it is the most Southern of the Border States, but still a Border State. You haven't provided a single source that says otherwise. I will repeat, again (though you can't understand it), that providing sources that label Kentucky as

968:

Instead, I chose the middle ground with the word "many" and you swept that compromise aside in favor of your POV analysis. To be clear, I will never accept this mockery of a "compromise", so you can get that out of your head. If I have to pursue this all the way to the level of the arbitration

841:

reputable study, a single one, in a peer-reviewed journal that argues decisively that Kentucky is NOT a Border State, I will drop that argument. I'm not worried, because such an analysis does not exist, except on the lunatic fringe. It is true that MO, KY, WV, MD, DE, and OK have different and

802:

Now, your continued assertion that my study was "only for a year." It was published in 1987, but was based on data from a study in the 70's and 80's, using registration cards that were sent it. Approximately 11,689 of the cards were gathered and the distribution was determined to be normal and

633:

I would, again, encourage Rjensen to reproduce one single edit (of mine) in which I have insisted on the viewpoint that Kentucky is a Midwestern state, and not a border one, before continuing with his unsubstantiable rhetoric. I would also like him to present examples of information that I have

2752:

I agree with the above map, except I would've fully included Oklahoma in southern states. My reasoning behind this is that the territory that became Oklahoma was allied with the Confederacy. Although my basis for what should be considered "Southern" doesn't seem to be very popular. (i.e. former

1522:

of this page. If you want sterotypes, you can check out any number of other websites. Besides which, there are more black people in the south then anyplace else, and they tend to vote blue. So are they not supposed to be southerners anymore, either? If we took what you're saying to it's logical

1478:

a border state. The other issue is just practical: If you think about it, just about anywhere you go you're going to find elements of what you're calling "Southern culture," but I'm not sure that's even the right word for it. Most folks I know would just say what you're seeing is a good ol' boy

2387:

said Professor Bailey, who has determined that the twang is not only spreading but also changing. “It’s the twist that we’re interested in.” The preeminent scholar on Texas pronunciation, Bailey hails from southern Alabama; he has a soft lilting drawl that, for the sake of economy, will not be

1665:

I'm not sure what you meant there but I readded the information about the Louisville Cardinals. In the context of the paragraph it makes perfect sense to included them number 4 in over all ppearances in NCAA (more than Duke) and 2 Championships as Many as Duke and UNC. Leave sports bias at the

1586:

pointed out: The real political division in the U.S. takes place along urban/rural lines, not state lines. If you think Red = South and Blue = North, then your south includes most of the midwest and west, and your north includes Illinios, Michigan, Minnesotta, and the entire west coast. Pretty

1373:

To put it into a different kind of perspective, all of England and Wales would just about fit into the geographical space occupied by Virginia and Maryland--and yet: if you know anything about the English (and the Welsh), then you know that they have a seemingly endless array of quite distinct

1155:

And again, you want your sources to trump everything else, to match your worldview. So, I just balanced them by mentioning other analyses of Southern Indiana and Northern Kentucky, because, believe it or not, there is not one universal analysis of those Border regions. Shocking, I know! But

792:

My edits do not "cancel" your edits out - my edit currently basically says that "many Kentuckians consider themselves Southerners, and many Kentuckians consider themselves Midwesterners." If I were trying to "cancel" your edits out (and I refrain to say "your" edits, because you only slightly

3385:

I take the Cardinal Amtrak train to visit my relatives in Huntington, WV, every August, and kudzu is very familiar to me from the train windows as we pass through Clifton Forge into West Virginia and south to White Sulphur Springs and Charleston. If what you are arguing about is kudzu in West

2021:

I strongly disagree with the new definition. The "Old South" should refer to the south as recognized in the 13 colonies. Futher, here is a speech by D.H. Hill of the Army of Northern Virginia delivered in Baltimore that, as far as I know, coined the term "Old South" that contradicts the new

1856:

And to whoever just posted the remark about elections: READ THE DISCUSSION THREAD! We've been through all this before, and you don't even have to look in the damn archive! ...Sorry about the tone, guys, but it's hard to keep civil when people just hop into the middle of a discussion when they

1095:

Your edits added nothing of value to my contributions (and seriously, they were flagrantly grammatically incorrect) because all of our sources come to the consensus that many Kentuckians view themselves as Southern, and many Midwestern. You chose the ONE questionable point, the phrase "good

1530:

have a tendency to vote differently depending on whether they're electing somebody at the municipal, state, or federal levels, because different issues come into play. For that matter, southern Democrats and Republicans tend to be quite different from their northern, western, and midwestern

1145:

I'm glad that you, in your eternal wisdom, have swept away the notion of Border States, while not a single historian or cultural scholar agrees with you. Good work! When history rewrites itself - i.e., Kentucky joins the Confederacy, becomes a Dixiecrat bastion, segregates as viciously as

947:

Again, one study, that you wish to establish as paramount to any and all other evidence provided, instead of forming a compromise that is mutually inclusive of ALL verifiable sources. I have NEVER overlooked the Southern Focus Study, because it found that "many" Kentuckians identified as

851:

You also don't seem to be able to comprehend what "compromise" means, either. When every single study presented here is in agreement that "many" Kentuckians view the state/themselves to be Southern and that "many" Kentuckians view the state/themselves as Midwestern, we've reached another

2331:

Yes, I agree Southerners defined the state, especially in the eastern part. In doing research I was amazed at how many other peoples migrated there, too. The pace of population changes was what struck me, but as you note, there were many aspects of political and social culture that were

1990:

Oh, great!!! Well, I'm from Anne Arundel County, and I absolutely love it there! Turtle soup I've heard of (though never had), but frog legs? Gator tail? You must have been eating in some pretty wild places! I didn't know they made that! Did you think that Anne Arundel was the best or

1557:

page at least, nobody seems to be able to assert his will unless he can convince other people that what he's talking about makes some kind of sense--which pretty much means he can't just assert his will. And damn, guys, it makes me kind of proud. Civilization in action, you might say.

1179:

been about the primary geographic region of KY, but instead, it is about an incredibly small difference in two versions of a paragraph, one using absolutes and superlatives such as "most" and "good majorities", and the other (mine) attempting to compromise with words like "many" and

1917:

reason W. Virginia is considered a border state is that it borders the northern states and the midwest, sure. But another reason, one more relevant to the issues covered on this page (and again: READ THE DAMN TALK PAGE, people), is that it split during the civil war and joined the

1848:

of the objection we're seeing. Discussion and dissent are always healthy and welcome, but if somebody's objection amounts to little more than a variation on "awww--c'mon guys, you all know what I mean" then that's not very helpful to anybody. Neither is "I'm sorry, but...this is

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committee so be it, because I am certain that objective outsiders will find that I have found a reasonable middle ground, one that you continually reject. We're talking about TWO WORDS here, and you STILL won't compromise, even though your sources are included! It blows my mind!

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balance, in dealing with these regions, is key. Because they sit at points where cultures collide, the only people who believe that there is "one" true view of them are the bigots, and hopefully Knowledge won't become a ground for bigots to lay out their agendas anytime soon.

1974:

Sweetie, NOVA is not Tidewater. And while my friends are fantastic, they are seafood-impaired. I mean, I actually had to teach them not to eat the devil. Now, come on, that's pretty bad. And the reaction to oysters was not very positive...<:O, but they liked the crabs a

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I completely and totally agree. The reasons given to explain why Virginia is not a border state have been inadequate to say the least. I'm reminded of when I was a child and my father would respond to a question concerning why I had to do something with, "Because I said

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Excellent idea. But maybe we should combine the two to make the label read, "The striped states represent a transition between the North and South and contain elements of both regions; therefore, they are sometimes/occasionally considered Southern." Do y'all agree?

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geography that I will not even waste my time discussing it; anybody who will seriously argue that Kentucky is not a Border State is either beyond the point of no return or simply in absolute ignorance about this country's history and geography. If you can provide

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entries that WILL reflect such a slanted viewpoint on many topics sub-associated. BUT...let's at least proceed from the premise that the majority of editors/contributors mean well and do their best to make the article into something to be proud of. *smiles*

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displayed on the page, while allowing for it to spring up full-sized when clicked-on? I suppose there must be some way to do this, but I'm a bit computer illiterate, so if other people like the idea, then somebody else will have to put it up there.

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The United States has changed quite a lot over the past one and a half centuries, as has its boundaries. We could combine TexasReb's idea with Lasersnake and I's idea. We could have a map of the United States as it was in 1860. The current caption

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3. The map cited via Pfly's site is not available, and nobody has said when it will be available again. Until then, it cannot be cited, because it doesn't exist at the moment. If you want the map in the article, I would suggest uploading it to

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material to this section, but you have steadily challenged it line-by-line from the very day that I wrote it. Another editor has left a similar comment on your talk page. This has been going on for months now, and it's getting old and pointless.

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It's obvious many editors love the South, but this is still supposed to be an encyclopedia article. For more impressionistic writing, perhaps editors should seek other venues, like a Southern Living magazine. This is supposed to be factual and

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My feeling—and, as always, I hope anyone who feels differently will chime in—is that, if anything, the Pennsylvania page might benefit some from this insight into the Pennsylvanian character, but the Southern U.S. page is pretty well complete.

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Anyway, I believe that sorta cooresponds in microcosm to the larger issue that while the Southern influence on Texas was/is unquestionably the dominant one, there were/are other cultural impacts that gave the state a bit of an atypical cast.

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is WV, TN, northern GA, MS, KY, and southwestern VA. Foundation for the Mid South - AR, LA, and MS. Mid South Bank - LA. Mid South Community College, West Memphis, AR. The Naval Support Activity Mid-South, a military base, is in Millington,

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Loundon, Fairfax, Arlington, and Prince William do not a northern state make. Most of the state south of Interstate 66 speaks with a southern accent (and even some people north of that line do) and consider themselves southerners. Southern

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Virginia, which included land south till Florida in the early colonial days, and Maryland, which was also settled mainly by Viginians). Heck, look up the origins of "cracker" and you will see Virginia and Maryland as sources of the word :)

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Southern states, including OK, MO, KY, MD, WV, and DE, as the same color and status. That map was changed because many people (and just check the history if you don't believe me) viewed these states - including KY - as only marginally

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Meyer includes all the cities along the Ohio River and all the manufacturing cities in the Midwest. He leaves out all the rural Midwest to get his manufacturing belt. Meyer explictly keeps the state of Kentucky out. He says, to repeat:

649:(Feb 2007) page 206 by Jonathan Wells about the black perspective in categorizing Kentucky: "the two sides of the river may as well have been hundreds of miles apart." "A short distance made the difference betwen freedom and slavery." 1710:

If we mark Virginia a "border state" then Florida should be de-colored entirely. Southern culture and dialect is far more present in Virginia than in Florida. The fact that Florida is located in the South doesn't make it southern.

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25, Kentucky only passed 17, Missouri 14, and Maryland 15. Integration in the state was earlier and more peaceful than in most of the South, with UK integrating in 1949. On Kentucky's record in this area, Encarta documents that "

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South, then Maryland belongs in the Northeast; both for geographical reasons (north of DC, which is usually considered the dividing line) and cultural reasons, as our culture is very much that of the Northeast and not the South.

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Granted, I have no problem keeping both of the studies out of the section. It is still portraying the correct message fine without them. If they are to be included, it is imperative that they are included without a purposeless

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So in a way, it's not too surprising that we'd a have a bit of trouble categorizing a place like Kentucky, straddling two or three cultural/geographic divides as it does. But like you said, this is really just a note in passing.

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We've been through this already, and the answer is yes: Virginia, Maryland, and Kentucky are all southern states on this page (forgive me, folks, if I'm leaving out a state or two). Please have a look at the archived talk page.

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I reverted your changes. Besides, D.C. is wholly on land donated to the federal government by Maryland. I suppose I should also ask, what are your sources to back up your claims? If none, do not make major revisions to the

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I'm a bit confused... Are you suggesting that Virginians aren't familiar with crabs and raw oysters? I think you may have run into some very unusual Virginians... Why didn't you visit one of the Waffle House locations in

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And again, you ignore my sources; you have no clue what the word "compromise" means, and insist that we take YOUR sources and uphold them as the objective reality. If I were as apparent in my bias and as ignorant about the

2882:. Try Googling "mid south". Most of the results are all over the south, from AR to NC. I know that's not a reliable source, but it gives you an idea where I'm coming from. For example, the Mid South Fair is in Memphis. The 2602:

challenges Kentucky's "Southern-ness" on this encyclopedia) or on any other page for that matter. You can continue to falsely say otherwise as you wish, but the page history and your personal edit history prove otherwise.

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the question or make a definitive judgment. By that standard, I'd say describing Maryland and Delaware as "occasionally considered southern" is about right---most people don't consider them southern, but a minority do. --

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interested in WV statehood. Mr. Curry's findings on the county vote are actually verified by the Constitutional Convention records of 1861-63. In James C. McGregor's "Disruption of Virginia" he quotes from those records-

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cultural study on the South outside of this one Southern Focus Study...but since much of it conflicts with your narrow-minded view of Kentucky, you choose to ignore it. Why have you not responded to my cites below from

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us to accept it as some type of dogma, though you have provided no sources - not a single one - that argue that Kentucky is not a Border State. This whole "Southern-Border" dichotomy is a figment of your imagination.

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You have, in your own mind, driven a firm wedge between KY and the other Border States, a wedge that does not exist in reality. Regarding the nature of KY as a Border State, Encyclopædia Britannica clearly states that

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These are opinions you state and that is not how Knowledge works....you will need to show proof. In the meantime, you come off as a biased Deep South resident who rejects the culture of the border states, sight unseen.

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I read the article before I posted my original message, and I have no problem with what the article has to say about the West Virginia issue. It's the picture that I find misleading. Again, while it's true that the

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Guys, I'm ready to pull the trigger and de-list the article. It's with deep regrets, because I'd very much like this to be a Good Article. I'm sure that it can be some day, but right now it simply doesn't meet the

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Indeed, nobody is or ever has argued that Kentucky as a whole is Midwestern. But there is an undeniable, highly substantial Midwestern cultural influence in the Golden Triangle region of the state. I repeat,

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The South is in red; the Northeast is in blue; the Midwest is in green; the Great Plains is in yellow; the Rocky Mountain States are in purple; the Southwest is in brown; the West Coast is a separate shade of

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That aside, I think we're all in agreement about the larger issue of the political map. Unless our friend from "Asstree" can come up with something relevant to say, it looks like we can put this one to bed.

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Again, this does not have much to do with the discussion here in the Cultural Variations section. But if Rjensen wishes to lump Kentucky's politics in with the rest of the South, he is conducting original

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Texas is actually in the region known as "Upper Mexico," since, after all, it once belonged to that country (this is why arguments such as "Virginia fought for the Confederacy!" sound so retarded in 2007).

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My ideas may seem a bit confusing. If you don't understand something, please reply to this and ask. Also, Lasersnake, TexasReb, and I are the only ones contributing to this. Anyone else have ideas...? --

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fully labeled into the article. It's nice to know that people from other countries are interested in learning something about the South, especially with world political opinion what it is, these days.

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the phrase "East Central", even though included in dozens of dictionaries and encyclopedias, did not not pass YOUR requirements, so you screamed and moaned to get it replaced before being overturned.

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I think that's stretching it, for a couple of reasons. First, you may have noticed a certain amount of discord around here concerning the status of "border states." Pennsylvania, on the other hand,

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voting blue--what then? They're not southern anymore? There's a lot more to being a southerner than voting for the Grand Ol' Party, and showing that the south is a varied and multifaceted place is

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not part of the South. Thus Georgia... Hmmm, where are we going with this? Oh yeah, do some research. I know, it is easier just to give an opinion. Guess that is the burden of the dissenter.

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You have provided sources that label Kentucky as Southern, but none (reputable ones at least, I'm not talking about PBS surveys or votes on CityData.com) that attack its status as a Border State.

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unique cultural mixes and are not identical replicas of each other, but they are still Border States. Trying to argue otherwise is as pointless as arguing about whether or not green is a color.

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That is the best Gator87 can do--out of thousands of studies he cites one that rejects Kentucky. Wiki can do betyter and Gator87 can do better if he reads a few hundred more books and articles.

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Again, I urge you to support your argument. In the meantime, most of Delaware is rural with a clearly, albeit stereotypical Southern culture where NASCAR, wrestling, and country music are king.

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Northern Virginia's Democratic tendencies are meaningless to this discussion. Arkansas is much more so a Democratic-leaning state than Virginia, yet few would argue that it's a border state.

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Yeah, but you can't seriously call Northern Virginia part of the South. I mean, hell, there's actually a group of people in the legislature who want NoVa to secede and then be annexed as

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4. Find the Knowledge principle that shows that studies should be presented "by date." Now you're displease because both studies are giving other weight, and the bias has been removed.

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different findings. With other framing information making it clear that an exact percentage will probably never be know, to remove the prior bias and provide some clarity for readers.

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I don't think an article on the Southern United States is quite the right place to post your concerns on the health risks of tobacco. The tobacco article itself covers that enough. --

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Politics In The Border States: A Study Of The Patterns Of Political Organization, And Political Change, Common To The Border States -- Maryland, West Virginia, Kentucky And Missouri.

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a Northern state, whereas Florida doesn't. Florida has Georgia and Alabama to its north and the Gulf of Mexico to its south, whereas Virginia shares a Potomac boundary with Maryland.

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1. 18% thought Virginia was a Northern state, while 81% thought it was Southern (there were some people who didn't know, which accounts for the missing one or two percentage points).

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also refer to the Mid South as TN, AR, AL, MS, etc. and I don't think it's helpful to remove that. I'll look for some government agencies that say Mid South and get back to you. --

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Sure, you can cut a map of the 48 states into four roughly equal quadrants or two roughly equal halves, but doing this yourself does not count for Knowledge; notable sources do. --

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4. Orfield, Gary and Lee, Chungmei (Article): "New Faces, Old Patterns? Segregation in the Multiracial South" - The Civil Rights Project, Harvard University, accessible online at

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as you are, I would be insisting on stating that "some studies suggest that only a minority of Kentuckians would identify as Southerners", because I have a study that shows that.

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it's previous status when I get the time. Please keep in mind that your opinion is not everyone's. And be careful thowing those stones, your house seems to be made of glass. ****

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The Census map is probably irrelevant in this instance. Regarding the CSA (Oklahome couldn't have seceded, since it was not a state til long after) - that's a reference to the

1162: 2582:, just to name a few - as well, and it is getting very old. You do not contribute, but you do take the time to attack any and every source that disagrees with your viewpoint. 1523:

conclusion, then we could put up a map of the "south" that excluded all the counties that vote Democratic... but then we'd have a map that looked like a slice of Swiss cheese.

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1. You clearly still have not read the Changing Usage study, because the very first page says September, 1987, not 1986. I've reverted that, and will continue to revert it.

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typical Southern state. As a little background, the article itself concerned the most extensive study of "Texas talk" done to date. Here it is, and perhaps you might agree:

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that included Kentucky as a Midwestern state? This is one of the premier references for that region. Again, since it is not YOUR view, we must reject it - just as on the

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had accomplished, simply acknowledges that some sources have shown majority Southern preference, while others have not. I'm not sure why this bothers you and nobody else.

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Estimates of kudzu infestation in the southeast vary greatly, from as low as two million (Corley et al.., 1997) to as high as seven million acres (Everest et al.., 1991).

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Now hold on. That would be like saying that Nancy Pelosi, the current Speaker of the House and a Baltimore native who lived in Maryland until she was a grown woman, is a

1616:. You folks who can't, for whatever reason, sign in under a user name, at least come up with some name for yourself and write it at the end of your messages. And please 2647:] and continuing through the next series of edits, while you attempted to remove a variety of sources throughout the month of February because you disagreed with them. 2484:

I'm creating state headers to make this section easier to navigate, will aphabetize, and also group first those states classified by the Census Bureau as the South.--

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to present any new data or articles to add to the discussion, feel free. I think at this point anecdontal observations and opinions will not add much to the debate.

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You've said it yourself now: people have never thought about it that way. Knowledge documents existing thought from published sources, not your original thought.

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Thank you, and duly noted. I would encourage any others who are considering contributing to check the "Cultural Variations dispute" thread...this discussion has

1722: 1463: 177: 3225: 900:" state, as is Texas and Virginia. Maryland is a boarder state, Missouri is a boarder state, West Virginia, is a boarder state, and Delware is a boarder state." 821:

more accurate. Despite those facts you will still go with your because it leans more towards the way you think, even though the other one clearly more credible.

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If I'm not speaking for everybody on this issue, I expect we'll hear plenty more about it, but in the meantime I'd ask you to leave the map up there as it is.

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C The remaining people in the sample were not confident enough in their knowledge of the Line to give any answer at all, and simply responded, "I do not know."

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Bottom line is, IMHO, an extensive re-work (not the maps though..those are GREAT! LOL), and edit is probably justified...but let's take it slowly, ok?

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Oh, lord. Apart from agreeing with everybody except the previous poster, I want to emphasize my agreement with the point Lasersnake raises regarding the

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Finally, there's nothing "flagrantly northern" about voting blue. People vote Republican up north all the time, and for all kinds of reasons, and people

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What does "secessionist county" mean in this context? That their representatives voted for secession when it came before the Virginia legislature? --

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There is NOT a dichotomy between "Border States" and "Southern states" - ALL of the Border States are referred to as Southern in some definitions.

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None of those geographical terms are set in stone, and I don't see any reliable sources saying Mid South = South Central United States either. --

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So once again: Come here with a real argument, and read the talk thread (including the archive). Otherwise you're just wasting everybody's time.

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Take a map of the US, and divide it into quarters, and you'll see. You're STILL thinking of the "cultural" south, not the geographic south. -x

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differences between Kentucky and states north of the Ohio are "minor", I really don't feel the need to substantiate myself to Internet trolls.

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Until then, you are just giving opinion, and I, and hopefully everyone else, will be silent until you start to *prove* your opinion is true.

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of the state = more than enough to make a Southern state. Do transplants to Raleigh, Cary, and Charlotte make North Carolina northern too?

3243:, which is well documented. Post-Civil War is a different matter, which appears to not be documented well (certainly poorly in Wikpedia). 1415:

reason why West Virginia and Virginia are combined in the caption, but I believe it's much better to change the map to the 1860 boundaries.

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views, and anything that disagrees with your views is either "hog wash", "bullshit", a "mom and pop study", etc. Believe it or not, there

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a. 50% thought that the line was between Maryland and Virginia (corresponding to the widely-held belief that Maryland is a Northern state)

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Seems odd that all these things which call themselves "Mid South" are not in the Mid South as described in this article. The article for

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by Richard Sisson, Christian Zacher, and Andrew R. L. Cayton (2007). Note the maps that always put Kentucky to the South of the Midwest.

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gets exactly one hit and other variants get zero hits. This is not a term that is actually in use, which is the criterion for Knowledge.

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3. Kesselman, Louis C. (Journal article): "Negro Voting in a Border Community: Louisville, Kentucky" - The Journal of Negro Education.

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taboo. It's also worth noting that Northern Virginia gave the Democrats the Governor's Mansion in 2005 and a Senatorial seat in 2006.

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out with other sources that argue otherwise. Whether doing this or using the word "many", the results are the same in either event.

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edited by James C. Klotter has many references to the state as southern in terms of names, foods, religion, and culture. The famous

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Here are three news articles talking about the tornadoes which caused damage in TN, AR, AL and MS, saying they're in the Mid South.

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make that clear. I would suggest that Rjensen avoid the use of superlatives and absolutes such as "no sources" in this discussion.

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I don't recall if I did this instance more than once, but the practice of reverting unsourced changes is pretty pervasive in WP.

2134: 1913:"It's nothing but a bunch of yankees now" is not an argument. Neither is "It's just not part of the south anymore." Furthermore, 1714: 2566:

this page at all. Steve and I have brought attention to this becacuse you have done it on about half-a-dozen other pages - the

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everyone thinks they know," or historical definition of "The Old South." I think the current article opts more for the latter.

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Except that Northern Virginia is a minority of the area and population of Virginia. It's not a border state, it's Southern.

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I don't think we have those. I actually had never heard of Waffle House until I came here! (here being NOVA). So embarrassing!

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Other than agreement - probably not. Most of the edits on this page which catch my eye are opinion-based, lacking sources.

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statistically representative of the United States. The margin of error on the study was at approximately 1 percent or less.

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Hmmm... now, let's see... where was the capital of the Confederacy located for nearly the entire period of time that there

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I do find it interesting that nobody has ever seconded your position about Louisville being more Southern than Midwestern.

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experiences and studies of the state, that it is one of the South, and I have never challenged its inclusion in the South

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Accordingly, you'll provide an example of additions I've made which are unsourced. Finding examples by you are trivial.

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The article isn't sufficiently broad in its coverage. For example, business, commerce and economics are barely addressed

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never did. Anyway, I think the problem can be taken care of with a slight adjustment of the caption, which I will make.

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It's not in the top ten (which is what the list shows). The metropolitan area is large, and is shown in the next list

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southern cultural imprint there. However, no Midwesterners moved into Kentucky, ands so they left no impact there. See

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ever considered that the northern pages might be wrong/biased and the Southern pages are right about these two states?

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Northeast is blue; South is red; Midwest green; Great Plains yellow; Rockies purple; Southwest brown; West Coast Blue.

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Northern Virginia is full of Marylanders and other transplanted Northerners--I should know, 'cause I'm one of them!

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that can of worms.) Subsequently, I wrote the entire paragraph around it and provided citations - starting here -

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legs, turtle soup, and gator tail in many seafood joints. BTW, shrimp and grits with corn bread is where its at :)

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by the WPA Federal Writers' Project 1939. is filled with reference to southerness and none to being Midwestern.

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2. Just under 91% thought Maryland was a Northern state, compared to roughly 9.09% who thought it was Southern.

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Perhaps this map may help. Oklahoma was even claimed by the CSA, even though it never formally seceeded. --

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which eventually became West Virginia did belong to the Confederacy, it's also true that West Virginia the

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The article make some assertions which need to be backed by adding in-line citations from reliable sources

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caption to clarify that the post-1963 thing only refers to the Virginas (and I also reverted the work of

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counterparts, because--again--they're concerned about different issues. It's a huge country, after all.

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Culture is a qualitative measure, not a quantitative one, and it is not determined by one single study.

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Kentucky, at the confluence of the Upper South or Upland South and the Midwest, served as an important

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gets a number of hits, most of which have nothing to do with subdivision of the US, and others like

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Showing that Kentucky is Southern in many definitions does not remove its status as a Border State.

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A quick note: This discussion, apart from being futile, is getting very difficult to read. Guys,

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The most severe infestations occur in the piedmont regions of Mississippi, Alabama, and Georgia.

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What are some of the jobs that existed in the southern colonies of America in the 17th century?

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Regions can and do overlap, there is nothing wrong with a state appearing in multiple regions.

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Okay...well, glad to see you're enjoying yourself. And by the way, no, NoVa is not the South.

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Let me repeat, again, because you have to repeat simple facts 20 times before you get them:

765:"the Midwest is Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Michigan, Wisconsin, Iowa, Missouri and Minnesota". 278: 3797:"Midwestern Industrialization and the American Manufacturing Belt in the Nineteenth Century" 3694:"Midwestern Industrialization and the American Manufacturing Belt in the Nineteenth Century" 3643:"Midwestern Industrialization and the American Manufacturing Belt in the Nineteenth Century" 234:

c. 25% believed the Line was "somewhere below Tennessee" (I am honestly not making this up).

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crossing the line.) The article should at least say that it's BECOMING an issue for WV.

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Delaware is north of Texas, but is culturally Southern. State your case to the contrary.

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by John E. Kleber, Thomas D. Clark, Lowell H. Harrison, and James C. Klotter (1992) and

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I'll take a looksee. In the mean time, a great source for this topic is Edward Ayers

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Oh, and while I am at it, ignore the trolls. They seem to go away faster that way :)

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e.g., how much is spent on eradication rather than ancedotal remarks by one person.

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Gator87 has misread clear articles. The Lousiville SMSA extends into Indiana but

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If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the

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If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the

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other people a chance to make it their own, too, including later immigrants.--

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Basically I think that, whatever we decide, we should definitely try to put

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It can be again, so let's don't throw the baby out with the bathwater! LOL

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United States Geological Survey, Midwest Environmental Sciences Center -

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geographical area, my question is, what is the basis of your argument?

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The Southern State of Virginia Prior to 1863, and the Mason-Dixon Line

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The majority of the population lives in unrbanized northern delaware.

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therefore, the map is not of the United States as it is now, in 2007.

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Bossism & Reform in Southern City: Lexington, Kentucky, 1880-1940

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annoying to try to figure out who's saying what, otherwise. Thanks.

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which refer to the traditional South, not including the Southwest.

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of as a border state: it touches Maryland, Ohio, and Pennsylvania.

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Misquoting Journal of Economic History,it excludes KY from Midwest

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b. 25% believed the Line passed between Virginia and West Virginia

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obviously haven't bothered to read what's been discussed before.

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The prose are spotty. Portions of the article are poorly written

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all historically, traditionally, and officially defined regions.

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does not do so. No expert says Kentucky is part of the Midwest.

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That's an example of what you can find if you take the time.

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why it came into existence in the first place. Okay, then...

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http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/9144/geonorthsouthwf0.jpg

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Request for individual state data from Southern Focus Survey

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Ditto on the comments by Laser and the other poster above.

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Maryland discussion - Vaux's research on the use of "y'all"

610:(2003) by the state's leading historian James C. Klotter. 3386:

Virginia, I would have to say that kudzu is very present.

1116:"Southern" do not discredit its status as a Border state. 2505:

Agreed. I think it's time to archive the whole thing. --

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Kentucky in other encyclopedias - seen as a Border State

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John H. Garland verdict: Kentucky in the Midwest region

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Kentucky Politics & Government: Do We Stand United?

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That sounds like a good idea to me. I noticed that the

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do this on other sites. No. Get that out of your mind

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studies were made. They were just snapshots in time.--

1550:--it's under the talk section about the historic map). 608:

Kentucky Justice, Southern Honor, and American Manhood

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general), so that's really a pointless threat to me.

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Ohio, Louisiana and Arkansas are part of the Midwest

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even though the Changing Usage study found just that

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A. Less than 10% knew where the Mason-Dixon Line was

3742: 3588: 1590:P.S., Good luck with your "Asstree, Alabama" hoax. 1573:. Come on. How many people would actually say that? 606:by Bolin (2000): the title says it all. How about 1306:To clarify: I'm not saying that West Virginia was 451:The American Midwest: An Interpretive Encyclopedia 3745:"Changing Usage of Four American Regional Labels" 3591:"Changing Usage of Four American Regional Labels" 2076:Maryland and New York are part of the Upper South 1211: 1195: 932:The North American Midwest: A Regional Geography 3262:map), it has always seemed more west/midwest.-- 1514:Now, let's have a look at what you're saying... 1464:Missouri and Kentucky DID Secede From the Union 753:in the Midwestern context on pp. 928, 931, 932. 178:Maryland discussion on the Southern Focus Study 186:2. Is Maryland a Northern or a Southern state? 183:1. Is Virginia a Northern or a Southern state? 168:Maryland discussion on the Shortridge Article 3077:There are some Manual of Style issues - see 1553:Anyway, as for him "asserting his will": on 612:Our Kentucky: A Study of the Bluegrass State 1579:relevant new information to the discussion. 1403: 1378:--and not in the way that a dialect can be 395:Dialectal information and maps on the South 405:Proposed solution to the Maryland Question 616:Kentucky: A Guide to the Bluegrass State. 373:only Southerners.) Many other things...-- 3228: 2028:http://www.civilwarhome.com/oldsouth.htm 3071:The lead is too short and narrow - see 2948:The text that I reverted to start with: 2723:Remove this if you see fit... citations 2527:Kentucky dispute in cultural variations 14: 3541:Do not edit the contents of this page. 44:Do not edit the contents of this page. 3794: 3691: 3640: 2130:Can you produce references for it? -- 153:Some rules of order for MD discussion 3522: 214:B. Just over 36% guessed incorrectly 143:Maryland? Oh, It's southern alright. 25: 3493:Largest Cities in the Southern U.S. 3066:Is this article up to GA standards? 1400:Historic Southern United States map 896:"NO NO Gator, Kentucky is a mixed " 173:Maryland Discussion on Meinig's map 23: 3456:which are relevant. For instance 1802:One more vote for Southern state. 385:WikiProject Southern United States 24: 3848: 3442:) 21:00 or 9:00, 2 May 2008 (UTC) 189:3. Where is the Mason-Dixon Line? 3526: 3050:Look at the history - vandalism 2975:, or an area including 1406:File:US map-South Historic 1.PNG 1405: 1213: 1197: 29: 3801:The Journal of Economic History 3698:The Journal of Economic History 3647:The Journal of Economic History 2834:Yours aren't sourced either. -- 2776:It looks like what I found for 1872:. This should be a sign to you. 1424:Historic Southern United States 916:rather than ethnic differences. 3788: 3736: 3685: 3634: 3582: 2232:21:30, 29 September 2007 (UTC) 2218:20:18, 29 September 2007 (UTC) 2197:00:37, 27 September 2007 (UTC) 2166:21:49, 26 September 2007 (UTC) 2135:06:09, 26 September 2007 (UTC) 1214:File:Unitedstatestoday2007.gif 1010:- University of Nebraska Press 367:What makes the South Southern? 13: 1: 3131:11:45, 14 February 2008 (UTC) 3113:03:23, 14 February 2008 (UTC) 3025:00:48, 12 February 2008 (UTC) 3010:00:30, 12 February 2008 (UTC) 2983:and some surrounding states. 2920:00:16, 12 February 2008 (UTC) 2874:23:21, 11 February 2008 (UTC) 2844:21:31, 11 February 2008 (UTC) 2763:04:33, 17 February 2008 (UTC) 2516:Thanks Laser. Looks great! 1344:Confederate States of America 1301:West Virginia not Confederate 1006:2. Miller, Penny M. (Book): 862:make way for your POV agenda. 772:01:26, 18 February 2007 (UTC) 654:00:17, 18 February 2007 (UTC) 623:22:55, 17 February 2007 (UTC) 499:21:07, 17 February 2007 (UTC) 477:19:28, 17 February 2007 (UTC) 458:18:11, 17 February 2007 (UTC) 3060:18:14, 6 February 2008 (UTC) 2830:22:58, 8 February 2008 (UTC) 2808:22:09, 8 February 2008 (UTC) 2790:22:37, 31 January 2008 (UTC) 1346:page contains a pretty cool 1284:Florida: Part of "The South" 993:1. Fenton, John H (Book): 580:highly substantial influence 416:22:44, 8 February 2007 (UTC) 378:16:58, 3 February 2007 (UTC) 356:16:45, 27 January 2007 (UTC) 337:14:01, 27 January 2007 (UTC) 317:12:51, 27 January 2007 (UTC) 298:04:50, 27 January 2007 (UTC) 250:16:18, 28 January 2007 (UTC) 158:Discussion of Rules of Order 131:22:22, 24 January 2007 (UTC) 114:21:13, 24 January 2007 (UTC) 99:00:27, 24 January 2007 (UTC) 7: 2973:South Central United States 2744:17:14, 1 January 2008 (UTC) 2263:03:57, 18 August 2007 (UTC) 2143:He is right, look at this: 1508:Map in the Politics Section 647:Journal of Southern History 437:Cultural variations dispute 18:Talk:Southern United States 10: 3853: 3377:22:17, 30 April 2008 (UTC) 3171:14:56, 23 March 2008 (UTC) 2568:Southeastern United States 2424:21:16, 11 April 2008 (UTC) 2342:19:12, 11 April 2008 (UTC) 2313:17:28, 11 April 2008 (UTC) 2067:14:33, 28 April 2007 (UTC) 1937:02:54, 25 April 2007 (UTC) 1862:00:12, 25 April 2007 (UTC) 1836:03:54, 25 April 2007 (UTC) 1813:21:55, 24 April 2007 (UTC) 1798:16:13, 24 April 2007 (UTC) 1781:12:54, 24 April 2007 (UTC) 1755:03:54, 25 April 2007 (UTC) 1727:04:01, 24 April 2007 (UTC) 1704:03:57, 24 April 2007 (UTC) 1688:01:59, 24 April 2007 (UTC) 1671:10:02, 23 April 2007 (UTC) 1654:16:53, 22 April 2007 (UTC) 1630:01:00, 18 April 2007 (UTC) 1604:22:49, 17 April 2007 (UTC) 1595:22:44, 17 April 2007 (UTC) 1563:05:34, 14 April 2007 (UTC) 1539:19:10, 12 April 2007 (UTC) 1492:04:28, 23 March 2007 (UTC) 1456:06:53, 22 March 2007 (UTC) 1438:23:37, 21 March 2007 (UTC) 1394:19:55, 12 March 2007 (UTC) 1356:18:53, 12 March 2007 (UTC) 1273:16:52, 10 March 2007 (UTC) 3743:Dr. James R. Shortridge. 3589:Dr. James R. Shortridge. 3508:11:00, 29 July 2008 (UTC) 3355:00:29, 9 April 2008 (UTC) 3294:00:42, 9 April 2008 (UTC) 3272:13:49, 6 April 2008 (UTC) 3253:13:12, 6 April 2008 (UTC) 3226:05:12, 6 April 2008 (UTC) 3195:05:18, 6 April 2008 (UTC) 2695:14:03, 6 April 2008 (UTC) 2494:13:50, 22 June 2008 (UTC) 2476:17:30, 6 April 2008 (UTC) 2466:a few decades, at most.-- 2453:13:57, 6 April 2008 (UTC) 2288:13:55, 6 April 2008 (UTC) 2016:Old South; New Definition 1336:17:36, 8 March 2007 (UTC) 1316:05:37, 8 March 2007 (UTC) 1295:23:07, 6 March 2007 (UTC) 1257:23:33, 9 March 2007 (UTC) 447:The Kentucky Encyclopedia 3795:Meyer, David R. (1989). 3692:Meyer, David R. (1989). 3641:Meyer, David R. (1989). 2905:itself says either it's 2718:Speech/Cruisine Addition 2576:Midwestern United States 2521:11:08, 6 July 2007 (UTC) 2510:01:28, 4 July 2007 (UTC) 2184:"geographic southern" us 2177:"geographic southern us" 2105:Major Metropolitan Areas 1958:state--right in between! 1383:than the state of Texas. 85:Maryland and Delaware??? 3478:22:56, 2 May 2008 (UTC) 3421:10:17, 1 May 2008 (UTC) 3396:07:05, 1 May 2008 (UTC) 3320:15:58, 7 May 2008 (UTC) 2971:variously known as the 1548:Bierstube Katzen Keller 1449:Bierstube Katzen Keller 1198:File:Regionsoftheus.gif 3233: 2878:First, please look at 2248:About time to Archive? 1614:please sign your posts 1410: 1219: 1208:Southern United States 1204: 3539:of past discussions. 3241:Five Civilized Tribes 3232: 2708:Response to a comment 1717:comment was added by 1409: 1233:Maryland and Delaware 1217: 1201: 42:of past discussions. 2888:Mid-South Conference 2753:Confederate States) 2006:Waffle House update: 1853:the way things are." 1618:offset your comments 960:nature of compromise 3514:Southern States Map 3335:Economy and History 2886:is in Memphis. The 2253:Cultural variations 1279:Cotton as a measure 1192:The Southern States 1168:A Texan's viewpoint 3827:Unknown parameter 3772:Unknown parameter 3760:Unknown parameter 3724:Unknown parameter 3673:Unknown parameter 3618:Unknown parameter 3606:Unknown parameter 3234: 3218:God Save the South 3187:God Save the South 2884:Mid-South Coliseum 2125:Geographical south 1738:Virginia actually 1660:Basketball College 1411: 1376:their own language 1268:Stevie is the man! 1252:Stevie is the man! 1220: 1205: 936:Kentucky talk page 494:Stevie is the man! 256:Hidden Information 3579: 3578: 3551: 3550: 3545:current talk page 3103:thoughts at all? 2220: 2208:comment added by 2168: 2152:comment added by 1730: 1325:geographical area 1079:as a Border State 918:" Accessible at 390:Original Research 126:i totally agree. 82: 81: 54: 53: 48:current talk page 3844: 3837: 3836: 3830: 3825: 3823: 3815: 3813: 3812: 3792: 3786: 3785: 3779: 3775: 3769: 3763: 3762:|accessmonthday= 3758: 3756: 3748: 3740: 3734: 3733: 3727: 3722: 3720: 3712: 3710: 3709: 3689: 3683: 3682: 3676: 3671: 3669: 3661: 3659: 3658: 3638: 3632: 3631: 3625: 3621: 3615: 3609: 3608:|accessmonthday= 3604: 3602: 3594: 3586: 3565: 3553: 3552: 3530: 3529: 3523: 3352: 3350: 3291: 3289: 2728:Southern Florida 2203: 2147: 1870:part of Maryland 1810: 1808: 1712: 1407: 1270: 1254: 1215: 1199: 645:Try reading the 496: 68: 56: 55: 33: 32: 26: 3852: 3851: 3847: 3846: 3845: 3843: 3842: 3841: 3840: 3828: 3826: 3817: 3816: 3810: 3808: 3793: 3789: 3777: 3773: 3771: 3761: 3759: 3750: 3749: 3741: 3737: 3725: 3723: 3714: 3713: 3707: 3705: 3690: 3686: 3674: 3672: 3663: 3662: 3656: 3654: 3639: 3635: 3623: 3619: 3617: 3607: 3605: 3596: 3595: 3587: 3583: 3561: 3527: 3521: 3516: 3495: 3490: 3363: 3348: 3346: 3337: 3332: 3306:What the deuce? 3287: 3285: 3213: 3208: 3203: 3182: 3068: 3047: 2984: 2773: 2730: 2725: 2720: 2715: 2710: 2705: 2529: 2502: 2255: 2250: 2127: 2122: 2107: 2102: 2097: 2092: 2059: 2018: 1925:a Confederacy? 1806: 1804: 1713:—The preceding 1679: 1662: 1638: 1582:And anyway, as 1520:the whole point 1510: 1505: 1500: 1471: 1466: 1402: 1364: 1362:Slight revision 1303: 1286: 1281: 1266: 1250: 1235: 1230: 1225: 1210: 1194: 1189: 1170: 1165: 747: 738:developed here. 492: 439: 434: 429: 424: 407: 402: 397: 392: 387: 369: 286: 281: 258: 219:i. Among these: 180: 175: 170: 165: 160: 155: 150: 145: 87: 64: 30: 22: 21: 20: 12: 11: 5: 3850: 3839: 3838: 3787: 3735: 3684: 3633: 3580: 3577: 3576: 3571: 3566: 3559: 3549: 3548: 3531: 3520: 3517: 3515: 3512: 3511: 3510: 3494: 3491: 3489: 3486: 3485: 3484: 3483: 3482: 3481: 3480: 3460:comments that 3448: 3447: 3446: 3445: 3444: 3443: 3426: 3425: 3424: 3423: 3401: 3400: 3399: 3398: 3380: 3379: 3362: 3359: 3358: 3357: 3349:(The Rebel At) 3336: 3333: 3331: 3328: 3327: 3326: 3325: 3324: 3323: 3322: 3307: 3299: 3298: 3297: 3296: 3288:(The Rebel At) 3277: 3276: 3275: 3274: 3256: 3255: 3236: 3235: 3212: 3209: 3207: 3204: 3202: 3199: 3198: 3197: 3181: 3178: 3177: 3176: 3175: 3174: 3156: 3155: 3154: 3153: 3146: 3145: 3144: 3143: 3136: 3135: 3134: 3133: 3116: 3115: 3097: 3096: 3091: 3090: 3087: 3084: 3081: 3075: 3067: 3064: 3063: 3062: 3046: 3043: 3042: 3041: 3040: 3039: 3038: 3037: 3036: 3035: 3034: 3033: 3032: 3031: 3030: 3029: 3028: 3027: 2963: 2962: 2961: 2960: 2959: 2958: 2957: 2956: 2955: 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3378: 3374: 3370: 3365: 3364: 3356: 3353: 3343: 3339: 3338: 3321: 3317: 3313: 3312:147.9.201.163 3308: 3305: 3304: 3303: 3302: 3301: 3300: 3295: 3292: 3281: 3280: 3279: 3278: 3273: 3269: 3265: 3260: 3259: 3258: 3257: 3254: 3250: 3246: 3242: 3238: 3237: 3231: 3227: 3223: 3219: 3215: 3214: 3196: 3192: 3188: 3184: 3183: 3172: 3168: 3164: 3163:66.25.204.117 3160: 3159: 3158: 3157: 3150: 3149: 3148: 3147: 3140: 3139: 3138: 3137: 3132: 3128: 3124: 3120: 3119: 3118: 3117: 3114: 3110: 3106: 3102: 3099: 3098: 3093: 3092: 3088: 3085: 3082: 3080: 3076: 3074: 3070: 3069: 3061: 3057: 3053: 3049: 3048: 3026: 3022: 3018: 3013: 3012: 3011: 3007: 3003: 2998: 2997: 2996: 2995: 2994: 2993: 2992: 2991: 2990: 2989: 2988: 2987: 2986: 2985: 2982: 2978: 2974: 2970: 2968: 2967:The Mid-South 2947: 2946: 2945: 2944: 2943: 2942: 2941: 2940: 2939: 2938: 2937: 2936: 2935: 2934: 2921: 2917: 2913: 2908: 2904: 2900: 2898: 2896: 2893: 2889: 2885: 2881: 2877: 2876: 2875: 2871: 2867: 2863: 2862: 2861: 2860: 2859: 2858: 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1893: 1892: 1891: 1886: 1885: 1878: 1877: 1876: 1875: 1871: 1867: 1866: 1863: 1860: 1859:Buck Mulligan 1855: 1852: 1847: 1843: 1842: 1837: 1834: 1830: 1829: 1828: 1827: 1822: 1821: 1814: 1811: 1801: 1800: 1799: 1796: 1790: 1789: 1788: 1787: 1782: 1779: 1774: 1773: 1772: 1771: 1764: 1763: 1762: 1761: 1756: 1753: 1748: 1747: 1746: 1745: 1741: 1737: 1734: 1733: 1728: 1724: 1720: 1716: 1709: 1708: 1705: 1702: 1698: 1693: 1692: 1689: 1686: 1685:Buck Mulligan 1681: 1680: 1672: 1669: 1664: 1663: 1655: 1652: 1651:Buck Mulligan 1648: 1644: 1640: 1639: 1631: 1628: 1627:Buck Mulligan 1623: 1619: 1615: 1611: 1610: 1605: 1602: 1601:Buck Mulligan 1598: 1597: 1596: 1593: 1592:Buck Mulligan 1589: 1585: 1581: 1577: 1576: 1572: 1568: 1567: 1564: 1561: 1560:Buck Mulligan 1556: 1552: 1549: 1544: 1543: 1540: 1537: 1536:Buck Mulligan 1533: 1529: 1525: 1521: 1516: 1512: 1511: 1493: 1490: 1489:Buck Mulligan 1485: 1481: 1477: 1473: 1472: 1457: 1454: 1453:Buck Mulligan 1450: 1445: 1444: 1443: 1442: 1439: 1436: 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