Talk:Scientology/Archive 3

1502:"The process of raising one of the ARC levels is accomplished through the teaching of courses from Scientology's curriculum. These courses provide the primary source of income for the Church of Scientology, and many of them are extremely expensive. If a member fails to acheive the desired goal, this is taken as failure on the part of the aspirant, who must then purchase the course again. Critics point out that this provides little financial incentive for the Church to properly teach aspirants, as failure to "pass" the course simply means repeat income for the Church. Prior to beginning any of these courses, the aspirant must sign a contact with the Church acknowledging the possible failure, and absolving the Chuch of responsibility for any resulting outcome." -- 574:

about Scientology reading this would come away utterly confused. Scientology beliefs and L. Ron Hubbard are made a mockery of and frankly if those with opposing views want to have a field day - then let them but lets set up an "Anti-Scientology" page and call it for what it is so we don't confuse the people who think this is an informational website where they can come to get some basic "factual" information on a subject. Wiki has a reputation to uphold as an encyclopedic reference site - it is not a battle ground nor is the purpose of this page to just pull Scientology to pieces. Can I have some sensible suggestions please so that we can clean up this mess.

1448:"During this process, the auditor may collect personal or confidential material from the person being audited. This information then becomes the property of the Church of Scientology, which can reuse this information as it sees fit. Some individuals who have been through the auditing process have reported that an auditor may spend hours trying to get answers to a single question. Some of these individuals describe the process as a kind of torture, where, for example the audited person must be given express permission to use the toilet." 1353:(verify this at a.r.s. if you paranoid) and ask him if he was taught about Jesus being a pedophile. MP just posted his OT VIII certs on a.b.s. and he answered directly my question about Jesus and pedophilia on a.r.s "There was nothing on that on the OT8 I did, but the materials were so lame that it looked like something huge was "missing". So either OT8 is different for different folks, it's changed since Fishman, or OT8 in Fishman was a forgery. Saying that OT8 definitely includes this story would be wrong for this article. -- 1377:

that formerly audited persons have compared auditing to "torture" may be correct, but by the same token, these very similar techniques are used by law enforcement during interrogation; this type of questioning is very common when the person being questioned is reluctant to talk. Also, it would be nice to have some references to (1) such statements from former Scientologists, and (2) CoS (mis)use of confidential information (I assume we're talking about blackmail here and that there is supporting evidence of these actions.)

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but everything to do with respect of others religious beliefs (whether people agree with them or not)and frankly just plain manners. There are other controversial religions in the world and looking over their pages on Wiki I don't see the anti POV, or their beliefs held up to public mockery, yet you can't tell me that they don't have critics also. If you have helpful edits in this direction I would appreciate it and I am requesting the removal of the "Xenu" section - this is already more than well covered on the

31: 214:" I contend this is unencyclopedic in nature and also very poorly worded. "Recently entered" is going to not be correct in a year, in ten years, etc. Relaying a specific incident here just seems unnecessary. Furthermore, if the text "who is perhaps the most outspoken celebrity Scientologist" is actually factual, it should be backed up with either an external reference or to an internal page listing all of the times he has spoken out. I think the statement probably constitutes 752:

references in the article to certain Scientology centres being described as "looking nice." That might sound insane, but in my mind describing Scientology centres as visually appealing (or really implying that Scientology is a legitimate religion at all) has around the same level of moral responsibility as advocating that a lion should be part of a petting zoo. It's like saying that Charles Manson "wasn't really so bad."

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are held in strict confidence within Scientology. The highest level, OT VIII, is only disclosed at sea, on the Scientology cruise ship Freewinds. However, since being entered into evidence in several court cases beginning in the mid-1980s, synopses and excerpts of many of these secret teachings have appeared in innumerable newspapers and other publications... (followed by examples, including the Xenu story.)

635:"This is sacred scriptures of the Church, focused around the belief that people are immortal spiritual beings and of experiences that predate this current culture. However, there are misleading characterizations made of these writings, with altered pieces of it taken out of context putting them up to ridicule. Note: This is similar to what has been done with the Bible and the scriptures of other beliefs." 1648:. But the anecdote you describe is really about the Church of Scientology's actions--that's rather different than the list of references to scientology in TV shows, etc. Re you suggesting a "Scientology and popular culture" article that incorportes both the list of references and a discussion of Scientology's attempts to influence or produce (e.g., Battlefield Earth) popular culture ? -- 643:"Scientologists argue that mentions of Xenu by non-Scientologists are "misleading characterizations made of these writings, with altered pieces of it taken out of context putting them up to ridicule." Critics of Scientology reject this, pointing out that Xenu is part of a much wider Scientology belief in alien past lives, some of which has been in the public domain for decades." 1614:, there was originally to be a sequence where one character (referring to John Candy's character) said that he had some mysterious power over her, to which her listener asks if he's a Scientologist. There was a well-documented pressure campaign to get that single line removed, a campaign that may have spilled over to criminal acts of intimidation. (to clarify that: it is 790:. It's a more proper forum for the flame war you seem to want. Your opinion of Scientology is not what articles are about. Well organized verifiable facts are all we need. Removing POV might seem to portray the organisation in a kinder, gentler manner, but it's just cutting down the chatter. Solid facts from unimpeachable sources will always have a place here. 774:

member of the minority, continues to portray this group favourably, such a portrayal is not what will remain in the long term historical record, or in human memory, and is therefore at odds with Jim Wales' stated intention for this site. History at large will remember Scientology as exactly what it is:- the prototypical destructive cult.

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Scientology does "work" is not relevant to an article about the religion -- anymore than debating the Christian belief that Jesus rose from the dead or walked on water -- these are things taken as tenets of faith by practioners of Scientology and should only be discussed in an encyclopedia article about the religion and not debated.

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who take the mission of this site seriously are able to remain focused on what Scientology's initial, core founding purpose was:- to destroy people's lives, and make money, and to perform these two functions exclusively, despite pretentions implying otherwise. Hubbard is well documented as having been a thoroughly

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page on the main Scientology page. This is getting into more detail than is necessary to summarize it for the overall subject of Scientology. My understanding is that Scientology is a large subject and to go into detail on every aspect is going to make this page beyond huge. This should be reverted

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Thanks. I am not suggesting no mention of any controversy or opposing views, merely the cordoning off of the straight anti POV. Links can be put on the page if users want to read the anti POV. I'm attempting to get neutrality in here and the ridicule eliminated. It has nothing to do with whining,

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As I understand it from the article, it is a grey area. Read further down in the article where it explains that in the US they are nonprofit, but in some European countries (Germany included) they have been denied that status. Seems like a well worded statement if the rest of the article is accurate.

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I think that we could loose the second paragraph on Cruise. What is really important to the Schientology article is that the Cruise incident reflected very baddly on the church and resulted in widespred ridicule of the church as well as cruise. It is also the most recent demonstration of the sinister

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The statement is certainly a widely reported and notable statement about Tom Cruise. It may well turn out to be career-ending. Cruise is a notable spokesperson for Scientology. So the controversy over his criticism of Shields is notable. There was a time when becoming a Scientologist was considered a

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I'd say it's notable. Celebrities have been known to make public declarations about their medical (or religious or political) beliefs in general terms before, but I'm not aware of a single other case where a celebrity on national television apparently regarded another celebrity's decisions about her

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Is any of the episode even notable? I'd think that for this article it should all boil down to something like, "Tom Cruise became outspoken about Scientology during publicity appearances for a summer 2005 blockbuster." The details seem more relevant to Matt Laurer, Tom Cruise or Brooke Shield than to

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that one of the producers' house was broken into at this time, with nothing removed from the house but the signs that there had been a break-in made very obvious. Since the parties behind the break-in and the anonymous threats were never caught, there is no proof that they were part of the Church's

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Okay - I need some input here. This page is altogether out of control. It has become a veritable junkyard to say the least. If anyone things it communicates a balanced viewpoint then they have rocks in their head. It is disjointed and as far as being informational, I think anyone who didn't know

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While we're at it, the article as a whole is becoming overlong, and I wonder whether the "popular culture" part is needed at all. It's entertaining, but hardly essential to describing scientology (a mention that Scientology has frequently been the subject of parody would probably be enough to make

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ChrisO says that "OT VIII is generally regarded as being a forgery or hoax." He doesn't say who "generally" is (the Clearwater gang?). I think he will be sadly dissappointed when he finally raises up the scratch for OT VIII and discovers it's the same nonsense. If ChrisO knows of another version

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I've put in a more emphatic statement so readers will not mix them up. I would see students getting them mixed up all the time, and not only that, thinking that they were branches of each other. Should be very clear on this, with no ambiguity, even if it doesn't read smoothly. (I happen to think it

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The "Hidden Truth" about the nature of the universe is taught in a series of Operating Thetan levels (eight in all are in use, though Hubbard claimed to have completed as many as fifteen), for which the initiate needs to be thoroughly prepared. These are the levels above "Clear," and their contents

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thwarting such groups is for individuals to be willing to speak the truth about them, and I also draw confidence from the fact that Scientology has had to try and silence a very large number of people online, and has ultimately been unsuccessful. Truth has a way of resisting attempts at its' burial.

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I can understand how people here might think that it is unprofessional to be overtly critical of the group, and I can also only speculate as to the amount of pressure being applied by the Church (sic) itself to maintain a purely positive image of it here. However, I am hoping that those people here

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I know I am late piping in here. I agree it was getting out of control, but I do insist that there is a balance of positive and negative sites, also having a few neutral sites from respected sites should not be a problem. I don't see anything wrong with, and in fact for the user who knows nothing

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However one should discuss the controversy surrounding the cultic organization called the Church of Scientology and explain how this organization uses the practices of Fair Game, RPF jails, disconnection, etc... It is the Church organization that is cultic -- it is the one that has a ruthless all

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You mean, "generally regarded by active Scientologists, and the CoS's paid scholars as a forgery". The Church has also declared this document to be amongst its own copyrighted material. Go figure. What exactly did you find to be particularly 'un-Hubbard-esque' in this writing style, and why? I

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On the Scientology page, specifically the area about celebrities who are Scientologists, it says Katie Holmes is a recent convert. Does anyone have any sources to back that up? As far as I've seen she's only expressed interest in learning about it, and prior to her relationship with Tom Cruise she

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Knowledge itself lists the Church of Scientology under its list of active cults, yet various editors on Knowledge refuse to allow the term CULT to be added in the discription of the organization. The term cult is ALLOWED on ALL OTHER organizations listed under Knowledge as cults except this one. I

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Good enough for me too. Since you haven't mentioned any other specific points of dispute, I'm removing the notice. If there are other specific portions you find to be NPOV, why not discuss them and work on them before resorting directly to the WP:NPOV flag? As I understand it, the flag is normally

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Presents itself while not blatently against a neutral point of view seems to infer that they are falsely presenting themselves, either they are a NPO (non profit organization) or they aren't, infer seems to give a grey area to whether they are or they aren't which while not definately a NPOV issue

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I put up the NPOV tag for the moment until I and/or other users have the time and energy to change this article into a neutral point of view. Please remember however that the NPOV tag is meant to be only temporary and should be removed at the soonest possible time after this article is editied so

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I believe it is very important to distinguish between the religion of Scientology and the organization called the Church of Scientology. The religion of Scientology is a set of technology and beliefs set out by LRH that people practice because they think it works. Whether or not the religion of

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and David Miscaviage. This is the article that should contain the sections about "why is it controversial". Most criticism of Scientology only applies to the Church of Scientology and not to people that practice the religious beliefs of Scientlogy outside of the CoS. FreeZoners do not practice

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I just cleaned up the grammar and sentance flow of the second part of the Auditing section, but tried to leave the tone of the information intact. However, it seems to me that this section stands out from the rest of the article, including the first half of that section, as NPOV. The statements

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It makes sense that the cultic definition would not be allowed, but personally I don't define an exclusively favourable description of something as genuinely neutral. I apologise for my earlier rant on this page, but it looks as though it has since been removed anyway. My main issue was raised by

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article. It's a short summary of the subject. The Xenu article is 8 pages long, while the short summary here is three paragraphs. It's enough to introduce the subject, introduce the controversy, and state why it is relevant to other alien-life-related beliefs of the CoS. Having brief summaries of

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There have been some recent edits that in my view add little to the article, and frequently derail it with needless repitition, POV, and poor writing. I've cut the following from the intro to the "Beliefs and practices section--perhaps something here can be used, but please consider the overall

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authenticated. There is at least one former member Michael Pattinson, that reached the end of the current Bridge by completeing OT VIII -- and he surely can't be considered a "CoS paid scholar", since he sued the CoS for millions after he blew the Sea Org. You can contact Michael Pattinson at

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The court never confirmed that it was once part of their teaching. Numerous former members have, pointing to the affidavit to lay out in black and white exactly what this teaching is. To the best of my knowledge, neither has any court ever confirmed that the Xenu material was an official COS

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I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts that Holmes has never read this Knowledge article, especially the section about Scientology's views about traditional religions. (Probably even Cruise doesn't know about this. At least that's my guess. Every Scientologist I've ever talked with about this who

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This, then, is what I urge Wikipedians to remember; that although they may feel they are doing the right thing in portraying the organisation in a kinder, gentler manner, such is not necessarily the historically accurate way of doing so. It is also worth remembering that even if this site, as a

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The historical record is very clear as to the amount of harm that this organisation has done; indeed, it is a testament to such that it is with a certain amount of personal fear of offline retribution in some form that I write these words. I remind myself however that the only ultimate means of

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I have trying to understand the concept of Scientology. As a practicing Christian I have many questions about this "religion". I understand the concept of the mind and body. If Scientology claims to be a religion I was wondering what happens when you die? If anyone could answer this I would

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Us Scientologists do not have a strong set of doctrines regarding past or future world events, and these do not form a important part of their core beliefs. The main focus for us is the technology, its use and applications. The Church states that the goal of Scientology is a world without war,

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Agiantman and Scottperry: I too am a critic, but I question the authenticity of the OT VIII materials as they are portrayed by Prince in the Fishman declaration. Most of the well-known critics at a.r.s. including Dave Touretsky and former members also note that the OT VIII materials are not

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Certainly our goal should be to ensure that no anti-Scientology bias gets into the article, but to completely scour it of references to anti-Scientology groups and the widespread suspicion of Scientology would be dishonest. Someone who comes to the article seeking information would be done a

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It isn't really defensible, in my view, to claim that the Church of Scientology and the controversy surrounding them isn't part of the subject of Scientology. This article should provide a brief overvue of the subject, while the related articles talk about beliefs and practices, the church

742:, in many places distorting word order. Your edits were clearly POV, many admins would have blocked before warning you given the speed at which you worked. BTW, I'm a non-denominational Christian raised in a Full Gospel church, attending a Southern Baptist School, sorry to disappoint you. - 676:

Could people please keep an eye open for POV deletions of the Xenu subsection? It was replaced yesterday with a familiar complaint about how OT III is taken "out of context". That's how Scientologists see it, perhaps, but it doesn't justify the section's outright deletion. --

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article should discuss the religious beliefs of the religion of Scientology as it is practiced by Co$ , FreeZoners, or other groups. This would include the Xenu story and other basic things describing the practice of the religion such as auditing, engrams, thetans, etc...

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This is why the critical sections of Scientology should be moved to the Church of Scientology page and the page about Scientology should stick to pointing out the tenets and practices and various organizations that practice the religion and not the nature of the Co$ .

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article for descriptions of why Scientology and the CoS can't be divorced. (I do, however, think that some of the critical material in the current draft can be edited down, and that there's no need to insert critical claims in sections that introduce the beliefs.)

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Can't we restore at least the first sentence? It seems a necessary thing to know about the process. (Or is it described elsewhere that you need to take the courses to advance?) You're right, it needs to be fleshed out but we shouldn't remove it altogether. -

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I agree, there are way too many links down there, especially many redundancies. I did some cleaning. Hope it suits everybody. Maybe more can be done. I aimed to keep the links which contain well written articles, rather than links which contains more links to

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To maintain a proper balance between the three areas, Church, anti and Freezone, I have added a few Freezone sites. The Freezone is, in some areas, bigger than the Church and should be represented to the same degree as the church and Anti Sites.

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I believe this article is currently one of Wiki's top 10 most read articles (if you were to consider all sex related articles as a single article). Obviously it must be working. No need to make any fundamental changes to such a successful

197:, but in short: According to Scientology nothing much changes, except that you no longer have a body to lug around with you. However, most people reincarnate immediately after death due to a cumpulsive belief that they need a body. 552:. "Cult" is a term that describes certain religions. That's like saying "not as a fish, but as a type of salmon". (And if you're an athiest like me, "man-made" is a pointless redundancy, the Catholic church is just as "man-made".) 990:

This is an article that was deleted from the Knowledge last June. Reminded me of this article. It certainly wasn't anything worthy of mentioning in the main Scientology article, so I thought I'd put a link to it here. It's:

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Let me give you a practical example. In the Xenu section a couple of days ago, you deleted the existing content on Xenu (in fact, deleting any reference to Scientology's most famous doctrine), replacing it with the statement:

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I appreciate the need to avoid external link creep, but are there objections to my reinstating the link to scientology-lies.com? I know I'm biased, but I think it really is a useful site, especially with the FAQs I've added

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Can anyone point me to a court authority that can confirm the "fishman affidavit"? I'm having a hard time believing that the court confirmed that it was once part of their teaching that Jesus was a homosexual pedophile. -

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teaching, yet numerous former members have. You can click on the affidavit link and read more about the specific details of how it all fell into place if you want. According to the affidavit, Hubbard made up this stuff.

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I have restored all but the last sentence. (Which was clearly just a snipe at the process.) The rest of it is neutral information. (Unless you contend that the information does not become porpoerty of the church.) -

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sides must be represented, not "cordoned off" into separate pro- and anti- Scientology articles or sections. The NPOV policy has worked well for Knowledge on other contentious subjects; let's not abandon it here. --

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powerful leader. Folks can practice Scientology outside of the church, either through the FreeZone or other groups or private practice. The controversy surrounding Scientology does not apply to these people.

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and the sentence would be best if we chopped off everything after Tom Cruise. I'm not sure how he is any more outspoken on it than John Travolta, except that maybe Cruise's comments have come more recently.

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I have no objection to a line that says that raising the ARC levels is a goal of scientology courses, though isn't that already implied, given that raising the ARC level is a stated goal of Scientology?

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down. I have only included scientology.org as (as I understand it) all CoS content is actually available on that site, even though it's also available under a string of other domain names. Articles like

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about the subject, I think it is important that the pro and the anti and the neutral are clearly delineated. If someone wants to set a limit of how many links for each category, thats cool too. David?

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I wonder if you perhaps misunderstand the point of the NPOV policy. People often characterise the policy erroneously as meaning that articles have to be free of bias. It's subtler than that; I quote:

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I tried to address that about a week ago, but my edits were repeatedly reverted, perhaps because "Xenu" was a little less conspicuous in my version. Here's an excerpt from my last edit on 6.28.05:

1587:, and have made a few recent trims to the section, but there's more to be done. I think the "Scientology and Other Religions" section is currently the worst offender-- almost all of it could go. 243:

I concur with MattWright--for this article, a brief statement of Scientology's relationship to celebrities is all that's needed. Details about Tom Cruise's recent behavior make sense on the

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In other words, the policy explicitly prohibits the "cordoning off" of so-called "anti POV" into pro- and anti- articles. This approach is taken in many other contentious articles - e.g.

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The purported OT VIII is generally regarded as being a forgery or hoax; it's certainly not written in Hubbard's normal style and doesn't read like anything he would have written. --

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If there's stuff in the deleted list that is actually references, put those in a separate ==References== section to keep it clear - a "External links" section really should be just

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dMoz. That external links section is ridiculously bloated. There should be only the most important available links - one or two CoS links, a few critical links. I have cut it

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will be able to provide the links to those wishing to see them. It makes me wonder if the motivation of these editors is based on being members of the cult themselves.

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having recently entered a contentious debate on The Today Show with Matt Lauer over Brooke Shields' use of anti-depressants in her recovery from postpartum depression.

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If by "critical sections of Scientology" you mean unflattering sections, of course they should not be moved or removed. To move or remove them is to remove NPOV. --

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If either, I'd say the latter. I've been too busy to prepare a good-quality summary of the incident, but there was a fairly notorious pressure campaign conducted to

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I took the liberty of reverting an edit by an anon. IP which as I see it is quite none NPOV but in the interest of transparency I urge you to take a look at the diff

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If there is anyone who seriously believes Katie Holmes hasn't been brainwashed and isn't a full-fledged COS cult member, I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.--

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stated she was a devout Catholic. Granted, I don't exactly follow every article about Katie Holmes and Tom Cruise, but as far as I know she's not a Scientologist.

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I agree that this shouldn't be biased against scientology but at the same time you have to be careful that we don'to bias this towards the church of scientology.

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used when there is a pretty heavy dispute about an article's general neutrality that is likely to go on for some time, but that doesn't seem to be the case here.

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The bit about the Tone Scale is currently a mess. Somone who is familiar with how the Tone Scale is treated within scientology, please copy edit that part.

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campaign.) So all in all, I would say that the section has not yet reached its full potential, but has potential to significantly add to the article. --

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that the Church initiated a pressure campaign, instructing its members to call and write the producers to insist that the line be removed. It is also

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management, free zoners, L Ron Hubbard, etc., in more detail. Take a look at the discussion called "list of critics," above, and at the intro to the

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have the same link-list-creep problem. I strongly suggest the list be kept to ten or less, else everyone will want their favourite link listed also.

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Right. It should also be pointed out that, contrary to popular believe, Hubbard never used (and the CoS still does not use) celebrities for their

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I cut the following as well, as inappropriate to the basic description of auditing (though some of this criticism might have a place elsewhere):

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I'm sure there are genuine POV issues elsewhere in the article and you're very welcome to address them if you wish. But the key point is that

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already exists and contains much or most of the same information. I suggest that much of this section be trimmed and/or merged into the

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In what way does the CoS not present itself as a non-profit religious organization? Jtkiefer, you really haven't made your point clear.

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The "Hidden Truth" about the nature of the universe is taught in a series of Operating Thetan levels (eight in all) ... In the

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That's an excellent idea, IMHO. That fits everything we have in the current article section and adds room for more. --

972:"Katie Holmes says she's converting to the Church of Scientology, embracing the religion of her boyfriend, Tom Cruise." 1021: 210:

Recently, the following bolded text was added: "Tom Cruise, who is perhaps the most outspoken celebrity Scientologist,

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that the producers received anonymous phone calls implying various threats if the line were not removed; it is also

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However, just because it's there doesn't mean it couldn't possibly be there in a clearer form. Any suggestions? --

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And I cut this, which does not describe what the ARC triangle is--though some clarification of that would be good:

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Could anyone add how much an "auditing" costs and how often members are expected to go to a auditing per month ?

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The "Beliefs and practices" section of this article is far too long and detailed, considering that the article

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To put it quite simply I believe that this article has serious NPOV issues, for example the following phrase:

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shape of the article (e.g., whether this info is presented elsewhere_ before resoring or adding material. --

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own medical care as his business to approve or criticize. I have rephrased it, however, to note that he is

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That sounds like an extension of the discussion of scientology and its critics, which is most developed in

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I didn't know that about Europe, well that seems to make sense then if it's a grey area internationally.

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side of the church in the mass media. Cruise came across as if he was a cult version of Pat Robertson. --

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page, or possibly on the list of celebrity scientologists, if we want to begin to annotate that.

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which is somewhat different. You, 62.204.200, pasted the phrase cult onto over two dozen pages

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Celebrities speak out about all sorts of things and I just don't think this current event is

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Yeah I noticed and reverted at least one instance of that, gotta keep our eyes out for it.

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criminals, and insanity, where good decent people have the freedom to reach their goals."

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is no longer part of the CoS. There are several "ex" members clearly identified as such. -

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The blogosphere is going crazy about this article - check out all the references to it...

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Precisely, MattWright. To simply state it one way or the other is to deny that it clearly

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She's stated she has been studying it, I'll see what i can turn up in the way of refs -

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I agree but it's two sides of a very slippery slope with a very small peak to stand on.

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preferable to simply making a link and expecting confused readers to figure it out. --

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altreligionscientology.org - a link list of the other several hundred critical sites

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Should we fundamentally change the nature of the CoS page and the Scientology page?

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for CoS programs, in the hopes that they will stay as cult advocates for the CoS.

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have read some of Hubbard's stuff and I didn't notice anything different about it.

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to an earlier version. Someone can do this, or if no opposition I can. Cheers.

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If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the

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related articles is very common on feature-quality Knowledge articles, and is

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should discuss the particular current organization under the umbrella of the

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I agree that that paragraph doesn't fit the section. I cut it. See below.

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levels, Hubbard describes various traumas commonly experienced in past lives.

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Actually, the second-to-last sentence should go too for the same reason. -

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to name only a few. "Pro" and "anti" content is intermingled to represent

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a five-second popular culture reference to Scientology. In the movie

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through OT III, when you donate for the SHSBC Premier Auditor Package.

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holywood career move, thanks to the Cruise outbusrts, not any more. --

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particularly outspoken Scientologist, rather than the iffier claim of

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SHSBC Premier Auditor Training Package: The Briefing Course plus all

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disservice if no mention was made of the detractors of the religion.

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material, including a Mark Super VII Quantum Emeter, for 30% off the

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This represents only the Scientologist POV. I changed it to reflect

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can we have some clarification of this BEFORE the acronym is used?

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the point). Should we cut it? Does it merit its own article? --

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SHSBC AND OT III PACKAGE: 45 % off the full donation for Solo One

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OT Preparation and Eligibility for OT Levels Checks per intensive

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Any suggestions on the best way to do that would be appreciated.

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The Church presents itself as a non-profit religious organization

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I think no matter who you are man made cult is a bit redundant.

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The inherent value that such a methodology has for all mankind.

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The role of L. Ron Hubbard in developing such a methodology.

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page which in itself is another issue. Request assistance.

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Hubbard Guidance Center auditing per intensive (12.5 hours)

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Jesus as a Homosexual Pedophile? Who makes up this stuff?

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Scientology is not related IN ANY WAY to Christian Science

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I think this is a good list that should be the one used.

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It is, actually, in the section just prior, "Past lives":

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Curious about what in that statement you consider POV. --

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enough to be included in an article about Scientology. --

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Should the "beliefs and practices" section be shortened?

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The methodology for accomplishing such a rehabilitation.

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Power and Power Plus auditing per intensive (12.5 hours)

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We need reliable references for recent price lists -

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Full Price $ 32,000.00 Special Price $ 28,000.00

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Full Price US 48,000.00 Special Price 33,938.00

786:Petrus4, I'd like to steer you in the direction of 1723:"fair game", "disconnection", "RPF" jails, etc... 361: 1177:Full $ 11,750.00 Special Price $ 8,225.00 1386:Ewps. Forgot to log in. 66.193.169.29 is me. 1203:It's a goddamn forest again. I've pruned it to: 1150:Full $ 5,687.00 Special Price $ 4,550.00 1132:Full $ 14,520.00 Special Price $ 11,616.00 1114:Full $ 5,687.00 Special Price $ 4,550.00 1324:of OT VIII, would he please supply it to us?-- 1078:See you AO Registrar for details on donations. 311:. Scientology actually gives very rich celebs 691:Excuse me, but why have a duplication of the 976:wasn't an OT-VIII was flabbergasted by it). 206:Tom Cruise / Matt Lauer (removal suggested) 1207:scientology.org - the Church official page 793:Marbahlarbs 10:27, 1 September 2005 (UTC) 545:The statement didn't even make any sense: 1421:"The core beliefs of Scientology involve 1425:The spiritual nature of men and mankind. 1428:The rehabilitation of the human spirit. 995:Wiki Bad Jokes Deleted, The Turnip Wars 14: 44:Do not edit the contents of this page. 25: 23: 1372:Auditing Section too inflammatory? 1087:SAINT HILL SPECIAL BRIEFING COURSE 1030:From Auditor (Issue 300, May 2002) 547:not as a religion, but a man-made 98:External links needs a severe cull 24: 1803: 1571:Scientology beliefs and practices 1567:Scientology beliefs and practices 1210:xenu.net - the main critical site 195:Scientology beliefs and practices 672:POV deletions of Xenu references 641:POVs, retaining your key point: 29: 704:It isn't a duplication of the 193:That's pretty well covered in 13: 1: 1407:Some dubious recent additions 417:should be a solid statement. 731:Actually it is listed under 227:) 08:07, Jun 26, 2005 (UTC) 7: 1281:17:11, July 18, 2005 (UTC) 1005:03:08, July 14, 2005 (UTC) 982:01:53, July 18, 2005 (UTC) 782:05:04, 31 August 2005 (UTC) 441:) 22:39, Jun 26, 2005 (UTC) 400:) 22:23, Jun 26, 2005 (UTC) 352:15:47, 29 August 2005 (UTC) 334:14:54, 28 August 2005 (UTC) 296:) 22:19, Jun 26, 2005 (UTC) 10: 1808: 1789:03:39, July 30, 2005 (UTC) 1308:17:48, July 18, 2005 (UTC) 1241:06:05, July 15, 2005 (UTC) 945:01:50, July 14, 2005 (UTC) 688:June 30, 2005 03:43 (UTC) 606:12:30, Jun 30, 2005 (UTC) 578:19:30, Jun 27, 2005 (UTC) 541:00:59, Jun 27, 2005 (UTC) 388:21:38, Jun 26, 2005 (UTC) 1768:12:07, 29 July 2005 (UTC) 1759:04:35, 29 July 2005 (UTC) 1743:07:12, 28 July 2005 (UTC) 1694:Discussion of changes to 1674:02:36, 24 July 2005 (UTC) 1653:03:21, 22 July 2005 (UTC) 1632:02:49, 22 July 2005 (UTC) 1598:02:25, 22 July 2005 (UTC) 1578:09:25, 21 July 2005 (UTC) 1556:22:58, 20 July 2005 (UTC) 1541:22:56, 20 July 2005 (UTC) 1530:22:48, 20 July 2005 (UTC) 1507:22:45, 20 July 2005 (UTC) 1493:22:41, 20 July 2005 (UTC) 1470:22:40, 20 July 2005 (UTC) 1417:22:33, 20 July 2005 (UTC) 1401:22:39, 20 July 2005 (UTC) 1391:18:18, 20 July 2005 (UTC) 1382:18:07, 20 July 2005 (UTC) 1358:07:12, 28 July 2005 (UTC) 1329:23:57, 18 July 2005 (UTC) 1289:17:23, 18 July 2005 (UTC) 1268:15:52, 18 July 2005 (UTC) 1232:21:42, 14 July 2005 (UTC) 1191:14:16, 18 July 2005 (UTC) 1022:21:42, 14 July 2005 (UTC) 965:02:48, 17 July 2005 (UTC) 955:21:42, 14 July 2005 (UTC) 919:19:35, 13 July 2005 (UTC) 808:30 June 2005 19:51 (UTC) 746:June 30, 2005 08:40 (UTC) 700:July 4, 2005 02:35 (UTC) 681:29 June 2005 07:19 (UTC) 667:June 30, 2005 03:44 (UTC) 594:30 June 2005 01:08 (UTC) 586:June 29, 2005 02:58 (UTC) 567:04:49, Jun 27, 2005 (UTC) 521:00:42, Jun 27, 2005 (UTC) 487:23:53, Jun 26, 2005 (UTC) 421:22:36, Jun 26, 2005 (UTC) 236:08:51, Jun 26, 2005 (UTC) 128:14:48, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC) 885:9 July 2005 02:27 (UTC) 820:4 July 2005 06:51 (UTC) 656:30 June 2005 19:46 (UTC) 556:01:08, 27 Jun 2005 (UTC) 464:23:06, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC) 409:22:30, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC) 319:18:11, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC) 273:17:33, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC) 251:17:17, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC) 201:09:34, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC) 169:12:20, 22 Aug 2005 (UTC) 155:07:22, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC) 140:13:33, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC) 1751:Scientology controversy 1738:I welcome discussion. 1646:Scientology controversy 912:WikiProject Scientology 906:WikiProject Scientology 900:9 July 2005 02:56 (UTC) 863:6 July 2005 00:45 (UTC) 845:6 July 2005 00:33 (UTC) 717:4 July 2005 16:26 (UTC) 232:this article. Cheers, - 1168:SHSBC Lectures (tapes) 935:List of Scientologists 835: 1716:Church of Scientology 1700:Church of Scientology 827: 797:Blogospheric eruption 42:of past discussions. 376:that it conforms to 1706:I believe that the 1159:BOOKSTORE MATERIALS 895:Viva la compromise! 856:The Advanced Levels 1547:Tone scale section 1225:the Most Important 877:reads just fine). 1219:the about.com FAQ 818:IreverentReverend 216:original research 95: 94: 54: 53: 48:current talk page 1799: 1671:Antaeus Feldspar 1629:Antaeus Feldspar 1527: 1522: 1517: 1490: 1485: 1480: 1467: 1462: 1457: 1265: 1260: 1255: 843:Antaeus Feldspar 271:Antaeus Feldspar 184:Life after Death 103:Knowledge is not 73: 56: 55: 33: 32: 26: 18:Talk:Scientology 1807: 1806: 1802: 1801: 1800: 1798: 1797: 1796: 1704: 1691: 1563: 1549: 1525: 1520: 1515: 1488: 1483: 1478: 1465: 1460: 1455: 1409: 1374: 1263: 1258: 1253: 1248: 1201: 1039:ASHO PRICE LIST 1011: 988: 986:The Turnip Wars 926: 909: 874: 814: 812:what is OT III? 799: 724: 674: 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