463:(Ingold 1983d:153–154). By landscape I refer to the morphology of the environment through which a person moves in the practical business of life. For the Saami the forest is a landscape in this sense, and its significance is relative to different kinds of tasks that draw people into it. Thus if a man is away from home, and you ask of his whereabouts, the answer will depend on what he is doing: if he is mustering reindeer, then he is in the 'reindeer-forest',; if he is trapping ptarmigan, then he is in the 'ptarmigan-forest',; if he is collecting berries, then he is in the 'berry-forest'. Yet as they go about these and other activities, people leave impressions in the landscape, even as the landscape impresses itself in the form of their own experience. Particular individuals are identified with their own paths, each a record of countless journeys made (ingold 1976:96–97). And the remains of a fire may call up memories of who stopped there to warm themselves, and what they were doing at that time.Through the inscriptions of innumerable traces of this kind, the forest — as a landscape — becomes a fabric into which is woven the lives of past and present generations. A man may be known, and remembered, by constellation of places and paths associated with is name, each linked to some significant component in his biography, and adding up to a record of who he is and where he has been. In this way the forest as a whole enfolds the history of a community, and to engage with it perceptually is itself to perform ab act of remembrance (Ingold 1973d: 152—153).
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history of any stand of the forest is intimately bound up with the history of the house to which it belongs: here, an open-felled plot testifies that its owner has sold out to financea move to the city or clear a debt to his siblings in the contet of inherietance; there, a stand of overaged trees speaks of a miserly old farmer who is reluctant to relaise the value of his assets, or ofthe failure of his heirs to reach a settlement among themselves. thus, given an experienced eyeand a good deal of local knowledge, one can tell much about the changigng fortunes of a house from the condition of its forest.
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drawn between
Finnish and Saaami attitudes. For the Saami pastoralist, reindeer herds constitute a repository of wealth and value, and their reproduction is the primary objective of husbandry (Paine 1972). Among the Finns, by contrast, the reindeer has always figured as a secondary source of income an economy centred on farming and forestry. Social relations are anchored in the possession of land, and not in animals which are regarded as but means for converting natural pasture into meat that can be either sold or consumed directly. Reindeer, like corps, are grown and harvested—in other words, they are
1320:- neither are well-sourced enough for standalone articles, and Yuchi's point about most being Lutheran now is well-taken. I think there are also syncretic approaches that would be better-served by having it all in the same place, especially as it's not always clear-cut which practices are wholly historical, which have survived, and which have been revived to some extent. There are also survivals that have been modernized to suit contemporary cultures. That can all be addressed more accurately by having it in the same place. Let's evaluate what's already at
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478:, which can refer just as well to the earth in which corps and trees are rooted as to the surface of the earth n its global extent, and equally to the territorial domain of a farm or a nation state. From the perspective of the Finnish farmer, then, the forest is not a landscape so much as a realisation of the inherent productive potential of the land, consisting in essence of the
452:. The repository of wealth of the Finnish farmer is his reserve of standing timber, held either on a private, bounded plot, or as a fixed share of common forest. Indeed in may ways, trees serve for him the same function — as a store of value — that reindeer do for the Sami. Where the latter is a builder of herds, the former is a farmer of the forest (Ingold 1983b).
1059:- From a purely semantic perspective, "religion" is also just a far more accurate and encompassing term than "shamanism", which is merely used to describe a type of religious practice. To refer to a religious structure by the slightly nebulous anthropological descriptor for one of its components seems neither logical, nor helpful.
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I am removing this as there are traditional Sami people who maintain their ways and it's not appropriate to lump them in with
Wiccans and such. On that template "Contemporary Pagan" is used as synonym for "Neopagan". If you want to write something on Neopagans who consider themselves connected to the
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I come now to the third level on which we can ask how participation in reindeer work affects the formation of personal identity: this is in terms of people's relation with the non-human components of their environment, principally animals and land. Here I believe there is a quite basic contrast to be
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or some other variant. Editors in the discussion have given differing views for what the title should be, including editorial changes to make to the article(s) as a result, and resisting has not generated further discussion. So while there is agreement that the title of this page should change, the
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the world, not against it. The
Finnish farmers whom I came to know took a much less benign view of their environment. They would forever complain about the harsh, god-forsaken land in which they were condemned to live, about the long winters, and the cold. Life for them is regarded as a struggle in
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The label "Contemporary Pagan" or "Neopagan" does not include exclusively syncretic religions or religions just inspired by old Pagan religions. They encompass both syncretic religions such as Wicca, reconstructed
European religions, and reinvented indigenous European religions such as the Mari or
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Hi Physis - I've done it before but only after a period of time. Anyone can place one and anyone can remove one, just courtesy for a time period. If the person cares, they would be watching this page anyway. If they are not watching, they shouldn't care (in my opinion...). Let's give it a week
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The best way to resolve this would be to rename the page "Sami religion" (since all shamanistic belief systems are religions, but that the converse do not hold, the most general term should be used) and then have the shamanistic side of the religion as a sub section, preferably in relation to the
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The last requested move seemed to generate consensus that the current title was not good, but wasn't moved anyway because of disputes over where Sami religion should redirect to, or if it should be a separate article, or disambiguation page, or what. None of that means that the current title is
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The relation between shamanism and the "other" parts of the belief system seems for me to be a sophisticated question in generally in ethnology. I lack knowledge how this problem is present in the case of the Sami, but still I propose a more generalized title, for example something like "Belief
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To sum up the contrast I have drawn here: for the Saami the forest is a domain in which lives and identities are inscribed, for the Finns it is a resource to be appropriated and transformed. Linked to this is a more general contrast in attitudes to the natural environment. Among the Saami, the
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that grow on it. Accordingly, one kind of forest is distinguished from another not in terms of what people are doing there but in terms of the dominant type of tree — generally spine, spruce or birch. Where timber is a commodity, such distinctions are of considerable significance. Moreover the
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The
Koyukon homeland is filled with places … invested with significance in personal and familiar history. Drawing back to view the landscape as a whole, we can see it completely interwoven with these meanings. Each living individual is bound into this pattern of land and people that extends
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fields, that seem to prefer the current term. It's used a lot in those writings, but not by those in the living Sámi communities and cultures. The actual traditional people in Sápmi who are being called "shamans" don't, and didn't, call themselves that. -
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for what the target should be. Doing something a little unusual here. The RM has been relisted a few times, and while there's clear consensus for a page move, the discussion is not clear on whether the title should be
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name at this stage is not clear. Rather than initiating a fresh requested move, please ping me if further discussion on this talk page occurs produces an agreement, and I'll review my close accordingly. Thanks,
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the
Chuvash religions which base on unbroken tradition. As you can find, the term "Neopagan" is used by many of the sources which describe the revival of these religions (for example Shnirelman's
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Although the text cited above does not deal directly with mythology, rather it is discussing the identity-building of contemporary, living people, but still, I propose an over-cautious attitude:
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nature, in competition both with their neighbours and with themselves. It is through such struggle, in the record of achievement in the face of adversity, that personal identities are forged.
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and include information about
Lutheranism being a prominent religion among Sámi today. Contemporary information is good, and Knowledge shouldn't portray Sámi people as living in the past.
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I conjecture, the main question is: how diverse are the mythologies of the various Balti-Finnic peoples? If they are diverse, merging is not appropriate, at least not in the long term.
821:. The FA fi-wiki page linked to this is actually called Sami religion, and includes other parts than just shamaism. It is mainly based in book sources, only published in Finnish. --
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I know is not part of Sami mythology. This it shows that there is some divergence - possible a great deal of it - between the two mythologies; 3) Moreover, the other finnic links,
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environment is seen to lay down, in its temporal rhythms and the spatial disposition of its features, a course to be followed rather than a resistance to overcome. One works
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Hmm. We could do this, but it seems reasonable to have an article dedicated to strictly the traditional practices anyway. Maybe two articles? I was thinking that perhaps
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In this collection, several authors examine how various Arctic peoples build their identity, and how this is related to their environment. Sami (compared to Finns), several
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page in the past, and the objection was based on the name of this article. It's mostly those writing from outside the culture, non-Indigenous anthros and those in the
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663:"Animal Gods. Aside from the Bear Cult..." What about the Bear Cult? What does it include? There's no link here to a separate article. Poor article structure.
1487:? If Lutheranism etc. will be included in a more overall overview as discussed above, In don't think it can be named as "Sámi religion". I also noticed that the
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Nelson (1983:243) makes a very similar observation in his fine account of the way in which
Koyukon, native hunter-trappers of Alaska, perceive their landscape:
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which) people work. The land, in this sense, isa kind of 'lowest common denominator' of the natural world. In
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Whereas 'landscape' denotes the world as it is known to those who move about in it, by 'land' I mean to express the idea of a universal substrate
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page is very poor and needs a lot of work; 2) I know a some amount of Sami mythology but very little of Finnic mythology, however the
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This contrast, moreover, has implications for the way the forest itself is perceived. This may be expressed in terms of a distinction between
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
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In a week's time, if nobody responds or removes the tag, I will remove it myself has this thread is preaty old. Thanks and Take Care...
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template. I am not accustomed yet to wiki administrative things, thus I did not dare to remove the template myself. Best wishes,
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Also the cited author compares Sami to Finns how they build their identity and how they are related to their environment.
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For example, how different are Finnish and Sami mythologies? I have just one source at home discussing similar questions:
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400:. ISTOR Books 8. Budapest • Los Angeles: Akadémiai Kiadó • International Society for Trans-Oceanic Research. pp. 41–68.
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only needs to have the summarized content, what is there now could be merged to this page, and then be renamed to
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systems among Sami peoples". (At the same time, the title refers to possible diversity among Sami themselves.)
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Ingold, Tim (1997). "Work, Identity and Environment: Finns and Saami in Lapland". In S. A. Mousalimas (ed.).
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page. In addition, if you read their mythologies, they have little in common under the present wiki pages.
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cover all the contemporary religions on the same page is also worth considering. The material here and at
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which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —
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The Sámi shamanism article is only 7k bytes in size and receives 100 visitors daily. There is also the
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good, though. Would there be any objection among page watchers if I just boldly moved this page to
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after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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1020:, Wiki should strive to use the commonest, most neutral term as opposed to exoticizing a culture.
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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1559:? This is a common formulation and much better than the rather inaccurate "shamanism" IMO.
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standards. Then put the template or one like it only in that section, not up top. Thanks. -
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religions practiced by the Saami, which is mostly Lutheranism to my knowledge, a la
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I have seen that since today, a merge template suggests merging this article with
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1373:. Let's move that here, and just leave a summary and link there. -
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Sami, put it in its own section. That is, if you can source it to
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article seems to be a collective article, which has sections with
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and see what happens - then no one can complain - take care...
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would look like if the current shamanism article is moved to
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this
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Sorry, I think Wiki-uk's proposal works better. We can have
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Thank You very much for that — I support the removal of the
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I vote no for the merging for the follwoing reasons: 1) the
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On 15 June 2020, it was proposed that this article be
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
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article doesn't have an entry on religion at all. -
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594:I vote *No* for the above reasons.
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1172:Yes, that would be fine. Thanks.
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1515:Please do not modify it.
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1580:- go for it!
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894:no consensus
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665:4.249.63.105
662:
659:non sequitur
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268:
229:articles to
220:
213:
212:
125:
72:WikiProjects
39:
1523:move review
1129:. Compare
985:Neopaganism
881:move review
757:—Preceding
342:ClueBot III
1598:Categories
1275:Yuchitown
955:Relisting.
363:article.
1519:talk page
1265:Yuchitown
1242:Rosiestep
1096:Rosiestep
1036:Yuchitown
1026:Yuchitown
989:Occultism
977:Shamanism
755:noaidi.
643:Dinkytown
599:Dinkytown
502:Footnotes
461:landscape
417:peoples,
1576:SnowFire
1561:SnowFire
1542:RMCD bot
1521:or in a
1438:SnowFire
1414:a·po·des
1300:SnowFire
1259:Move to
1160:SnowFire
1139:SnowFire
962:a·po·des
853:(talk) •
823:Tappinen
759:unsigned
572:Kalevala
527:Proposal
372:{{main}}
337:180 days
300:Archives
244:Religion
222:Religion
175:Religion
1493:Wiki-uk
1358:Wiki-uk
1312:Having
1257:Comment
1174:Wiki-uk
1154:Wiki-uk
1092:Support
1079:Wiki-uk
1075:Support
1057:Support
1040:Support
1018:Support
973:Support
944:Wiki-uk
922:Crossin
811:Support
778:Support
494:against
419:Orochon
271:on the
62:C-class
1318:Noaidi
1292:Skolts
1286:, the
1022:Shaman
917:Steven
892:, but
843:Noaidi
837:Noaidi
819:Noaidi
786:Noaidi
742:Physis
624:Physis
583:, and
545:Physis
472:within
450:farmed
415:Eskimo
141:Norway
132:Norway
91:Norway
68:scale.
1489:Sápmi
1371:Agree
735:Title
719:). --
685:WP:RS
617:merge
480:trees
427:Aleut
423:Sakha
386:etc.
309:Index
28:moved
1586:talk
1565:talk
1497:talk
1442:talk
1411:Wug·
1362:talk
1304:talk
1269:talk
1246:talk
1178:talk
1164:talk
1143:talk
1100:talk
1083:talk
1065:talk
1048:talk
1030:talk
987:and
959:Wug·
948:talk
827:talk
767:talk
746:talk
725:talk
689:WP:V
687:and
669:talk
647:talk
628:talk
603:talk
549:talk
489:with
468:upon
459:and
457:land
402:ISBN
366:The
233:and
231:good
38:was
1436:.
1125:or
1119:all
901:or
534:not
476:maa
263:Top
235:1.0
30:to
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1513:.
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1464:ie
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1458:Co
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999:rb
996:Co
983:,
964:
952:--
938:→
873:.
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796:ie
794:rb
792:Co
788:-
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748:)
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620:}}
614:{{
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579:,
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382:,
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1578::
1574:@
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1472:☼
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1391:☼
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1342:☼
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705:♫
702:♦
699:♫
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312:1
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74::
42:.
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