1502:"upon the Khmers Rouges takeover (Central Intelligence Agency, Kampuchea: A Demographic Catastrophe, Research Paper, May 1980, 2). Michael Vickery speaks of roughly 300,000 executions and over 400,000 deaths resulting from excessive working conditions (Cambodia 1975–1982 , 187), while Kiernan claims 1.5 million deaths for the Khmers Rouges period (The Pol Pot Regime, 460). Other estimates are 3,314,768 (sic!): People’s Republic of Kampuchea, Ministry of Foreign Affairs, The Chinese Rulers’ Crimes against Kampuchea (Phnom Penh, 1984), 85, later revised to 2,7464,105: Sapordamean Kampuchea (official news agency), 16 Aug. 1983, in FBIS, AP, 16 Aug. 1983, H3; 1.05 million: Judith Banister and Paige Johnson, “After the Nightmare: The Population of Cambodia,” in Ben Kiernan, ed., Genocide and Democracy in Cambodia: The Khmers Rouges, the United Nations and the International Community, Yale SEA Studies Monograph Series, no. 41 (New Haven, 1993), 66; Meng-Try Ea, “Recent Population Trends in Kampuchea,” in Ablin and Hood, eds., The Cambodian Agony, 7. It seems safe to say that at least one million people perished as a result of malnutrition, beatings, forced labor and executions (the latter probably accounting for no more than 200,000). 22. Melson, Revolution and Genocide, 265. 23. On the entirely un-Marxist class analysis of the Khmers Rouges, cf. “Statement of the Communist Party of Kampuchea to the Communist Workers’ Party of Denmark, July 1978, by Nuon Chea, Deputy Party Secretary,” Journal of Communist Studies 3, no. 1 (Mar. 1987): 19ff.; “Sharpen the Consciousness of the Proletarian Class to be as Keen and Strong as Possible” (Tung Padevat article, special edition, Sept.–Oct. 1976), in Karl D. Jackson, ed., Cambodia 1975–1978: Rendezvous with Death (Princeton, 1989); Timothy Carney, “Kampuchea’s Class Structure,” in ibid. See also my Die Roten Khmer und der Dritte Indochina-Krieg, Mitteilungen des Instituts für Asienkunde (Hamburg, 1995). 24. For the population transfers, see Kiljunen, ed., Kampuchea; for the Eastern Zone uprising, consult Kiernan, The Pol Pot Regime, 392ff; for the internal rewriting of party history, cf. “Sharpen the Consciousness of the Proletarian Class,” 269, and Viviane Frings, “Rewriting Cambodian History to ‘Adapt’ It to a New Political Context: The Kampuchean People’s Revolutionary Party’s Historiography (1979–1991),” Modern Asian Studies 31, (Oct. 1997): 807ff. 25. Pol Pot (prime minister, secretary-general of the CPK) and Ieng Sary (foreign minister) were brothers-in-law; Sary’s wife Ieng Thirith was the minister for social affairs. Son Sen (minister of defense) and his wife Yun Yat (minister of culture and education) as well as the Thioun brothers, Mumm (director of the Science and Technology Institute), Thioeunn (minister of health) and Prasith (director of the Asian Department of the Foreign Ministry), together with several"
1471:"According to an 1830 census, prior to deportation, there was a population of approximately four million Circassians. Karl Freidrick Neuman, a German orientalist, cites Ottoman correspondence claiming that 1.5 million Circassians attempted to sail to Turkey, with 500,000 dying in route. An additional 500,000 Circassians died of disease in the camps on Turkish shores, and 200,000 people fled voluntarily to Turkey in 1858 before the deportations. In 1864, Russia reappropriated Circassian lands to pro-Russian ethnic groups and forcibly resettled around 120-150,000 Circassians who were spared by accepting Russian cultural assimilation. Russian assimilation programs and deportations to Turkey only account for approximately half of the Circassian population. The corroboration between both Turkish and Russian documents puts the number of Circassian deaths by military operations and pre-planned massacres between 1.5 – 2 million; this is including those that disappeared, died from war, depopulation of villages, and instances of mass murder."
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1356:). Anyone can tell what's reliable and what's not. And if I can't, how can you? We're both anonymous guys on Knowledge. Old sources are not reliable because they do not reflect the current state of scholarly knowledge. The writings of foreign adventurers or Russian generals are primary sources and should not be used in casualty estimates because primary sources may be inaccurate, whether intentionally or not. They are just one piece of evidence in determining casualty counts. As you just said, not all of the books are "by historians with reliable sources to back up their claims" - some are primary, and others like remilitari.com are most definitely not reliable. The proper source for a casualty count should be a recent estimate by a scholar that can be sourced to an appropriate book or article.
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the Black Sea in the west to the River Sunzhi (in present day
Chechenia) in the east until the Russian conquest in the 1860s. Documents show the existence of a confederated Circassia in 1830 with more than 4 million people.” I was unable to locate any citations in this book, which was not peer-reviewed, for this claim. The best I could find as to the origins of the chapter's arguments is an "It is said" at the top of the next paragraph instead. The only excerpt I could find that hinted at authorship at all was in the Acknowledgments, "The pages that follow represent counting efforts intended to provide insight into the situations of the nations, people and minorities,
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to prevent any double-counting, and with a clause that research is ongoing as to the causes of these deaths, but that the reasons may include direct
Russian army killings of civilians, famine, disease, deaths during deportation, etc. In the upcoming years, given revived interest in this topic, more reliable numbers and breakdowns will probably be able to be added.
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1454:"During the Circassian Genocide, approximately 1.5 to 2 million Circassian natives were slaughtered; and about 1,500,000 indigenous highland Caucasians were mainly expelled to the Ottoman Empire, and a much smaller number of them were expelled to Persia. An unknown number of those who were expelled died during their deportation."
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Who are you to say what sources are reliable and what aren’t. It doesn’t matter if it‘s old or not. The sources that I provided are books with sources from the original writings of foreign adventurers or
Russian generals that took part in the Russo-Circassian war. You can look up all of the books and
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Remilitari.com is recognized as a reliable source by numerous academic institutions, historians, and researchers. Its credibility stems from thorough research, citation of primary sources, and peer-reviewed content. Furthermore, its commitment to factual accuracy and unbiased reporting solidifies its
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To stop the edit wars over this section I've noticed going through the page history, I would recommend that all death statistics be grouped into a cumulative number, something like 1-4 million (depending on the source of Neuman's information and the corroboration of Neuman by other? primary sources)
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The citation for a population of 4 million
Circassians in 1830 is from a xx, Ryan, Atticus, Unrepresented Nations and Peoples Organization: Yearbook 1997 (Kluwer Law International, 1998). Page 67. The first two sentences of this page are as follows -- “Historic Cherkessia occupied the territory from
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It does not matter how many sources you add if they are unreliable. 0+0+0+...+0 = 0 no matter how many 0s you throw in. The sources do not universally agree on your figure of 1.5 million. Many of them are primary sources - memoirs, journals, original statistics gathered by the military, etc. are all
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P.S. The website says "Members of this society and affiliates of the De Re
Militari Social Network may be any person who previously requests it from the Administrator or Owner of the electronic Social Network as indicated on the Social Network Server page, as well as in the of this website intended
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I’m not trying to source spam, just trying to bring as much sources to provide the historical accuracy of the causalties. Even though there are many sources all of them claim the same thing. And the only source that I got from primary sources is from the book of Teofil
Lapinsky who‘s the one that
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I think
Messenger uses this as justification for his math, without really going into primary or reliable academic sources as Raszelenberg does. Again, this is typical of student-run publications, but results in a situation where poor citation management/historical work on Messenger's part is
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was below 1 million; Circassia had already been ravaged by war and intermittent epidemics for nearly 50 years. That is to say, this is a claim that I think requires more effort, either by scholars, or by better citation management here, to confidently make on such a politicized topic.
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population. The borders of historic
Circassia described in the source above include within them nearly all of the homelands of the Ossetians, Karachay, and Balkars, as well as nearly half of Ingushetia, etc. The Armenian population of Russian Armenia was
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I wrote this post because one of the sources used by Tluadg refers to this quote, which cites this particular loss calculator. And so it would be best to send to
Lieberman's work, he cited the estimated losses by name, referring to the documents of the
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It is also worth nothing that xxiii, the citation for 1.5-2 million deaths, refers to
Raszelenberg, Patrick. “The Khmers Rouges and the Final Solution.” History and Memory 11, no. 2 (1999): 62–93. Page 88. I have included the entire page below:
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American University: Journal of International Service is a student-run publication that is not peer-reviewed in the sense that it is reviewed by other scholars, but in the sense that it is reviewed by other American University
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is owned by the Russian government and cannot be trusted as the sole source for a casualty count. I have therefore determined that no one has offered a reliable casualty estimate and just blanked the part of the infobox.
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remilitari.com appears to be a self-published or user-generated source. It is equivalent to a blog or a mailing list or any random history website someone puts up on the web. It is most definitely not a reliable source.
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Subsequently, I think the clause the Messenger article is used as a cite for should be deleted and instead, it is most accurate to write that (1) this is an active topic of renewed historical interest and
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status as a reputable source for historical information. The source also provides the Circassian casualties, but you don’t change nothing on the Circassian side. It just shows your ego and hypocrisy
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Please explain why you think that remilitari.com is a reliable source. It does not provide scholarly sources to the numbers it gives, therefore these numbers are impossible to reliably verify. -
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and that (2) consensus regarding estimates of civilian deaths, and (3) the proportion caused by various Russian military actions, deportation, or disease has not yet been reached.
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I ask the administration to pay attention to the actions of some participants, which add absolutely absurd data contradicting the sources, the article should be closed for edits
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on the basis of any primary or academic sources, despite being used as the main citation for that claim. The relevant excerpt from the Messenger article is below -
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for this purpose." This means this society does not require any scholarly credentials from he contributors, hence it cannot be possibly a reliable source.
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New users continue to add the same information, ignoring requests to go to the discussion page, something really needs to be done about this article
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Please do not make personal attacks. The definition of a reliable source is widely agreed upon, both generally be scholars and in Knowledge policy (
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https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Circassian+genocide&year_start=1800&year_end=2019&corpus=en-2019&smoothing=3
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The main quote that refutes the calculation of losses in 1901 is taken from the magazine "Rodina" which claims 77 thousand Russian losses
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of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change
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I request to change the volunteering of Karachays and Balkars for Russian to volunteering of Karachays and Balkars for Circassians
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also claims that from the time of Catharine II that are about one and a half million military casualties KIA, DFW and DFD.
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No provided sources for casualties have been reliable. Tluadg has justified sourcing with the following edit summaries:
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I agree with Altenmann. Also, it would be prudent for editwarring parties to start using the article talk page. --
231:. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check
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Please show me a single "citation of primary sources, and peer-reviewed content", or at the very least author
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may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the
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who wrote them, all of the books were written by historians with reliable sources to back their claims.
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Apollo Shpaksky. Notes of an old Cossack // Military collection. Number 2. February. 1873. p. 419-420.
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Apollo Shpaksky. Notes of an old Cossack // Military collection. Number 2. February. 1873. p. 419-420.
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procedure applies to this page. This page is related to Eastern Europe or the Balkans, which has been
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists.
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for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists.
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I have read all your message, I agree that it is better to leave the infbox page empty.
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Mountaineers of the Caucasus and their liberation struggle against the Russians
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Mountaineers of the Caucasus and their liberation struggle against the Russians
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Journal of a residence in Circassia during the years 1837, 1838, and 1839
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Journal of a residence in Circassia during the years 1837, 1838, and 1839
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Acts collected by the Caucasian Archaeographic Commission: Volume II
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Acts collected by the Caucasian Archaeographic Commission: Volume II
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Additionally, it does not claim 1.5-2 million deaths as a result of
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Feel free to edit the article attached to this page, join up at the
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Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 17 September 2024 (2)
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Regarding the Messenger article as a cite for 1.5-2 million deaths
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This is regarding the following section in the article:
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19:This is the
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1366:You wrote:
1259:Kansas Bear
873:WikiProject
659:Structure:
335:May 5, 2007
148:free images
31:not a forum
1891:Categories
1781:1994-04-16
1686:volunteers
1673:volunteers
1634:|answered=
1482:Circassian
1432:Dushnilkin
1418:Dushnilkin
1404:Dushnilkin
1362:Dushnilkin
1316:Casualties
1212:Dushnilkin
1177:designated
787:has failed
1770:Circassia
1557:requested
1465:slaughter
1461:students.
1400:Caucasus.
1287:Altenmann
1245:Altenmann
1231:Altenmann
1206:Vandalism
1190:, or any
88:if needed
71:Be polite
21:talk page
1822:(2021).
1773:Archived
1718:(2021).
1684:Karachay
1512:research
1133:Caucasia
1127:inactive
1101:inactive
1096:Caucasia
828:Military
620:criteria
347:Promoted
328:Approved
309:Reviewed
186:Archives
56:get help
29:This is
27:article.
1785:April 4
1695:DatoShp
1578:history
1071:on the
922:on the
824:History
593:C-class
527:C‑class
519:Ottoman
485:B-class
459:history
425:history
385:Demoted
366:Demoted
268:Process
154:WP refs
142:scholar
1671:Balkar
1555:It is
1378:Rodina
1323:Tluadg
1044:Turkey
1031:Turkey
987:Turkey
895:Russia
877:Russia
819:Russia
491:scale.
290:Listed
271:Result
126:Google
1878:(PDF)
1806:(PDF)
1609:" is
1590:links
1354:WP:RS
1290:: -->
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1234:: -->
227:is a
169:JSTOR
130:books
84:Seek
1830:ISBN
1788:2007
1726:ISBN
1699:talk
1615:must
1584:last
1572:edit
1531:talk
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1390:talk
1372:diff
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1171:The
1033:and
914:High
871:, a
265:Date
162:FENS
136:news
73:and
1645:EEp
1641:yes
1625:".
1621:to
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