Talk:Renewable energy commercialization/Archive 1

1193:

speech. This fails to mention that many current gen solar panels are EROEI negative, and their production processes produce voluminous amounts of highly toxic waste. There are similar technological externalities to the so called "green technologies", but they are not being discussed. This is Gore's political position. What is politics doing in this section? it is supposed to be about commercialization of green technologies, not discussing the publicly voiced opinions of a politician which is engaged in funneling public funds to economically uncompetitive technologies (that are supposedly green) and recieving a portion of spent public funds back from invovled companies.

2586:. Definitely needs updating, most of the data is from 2015 or earlier. This is an area that is very current so there will be current information out there. It also talks about future targets that have now passed and should show a result, plus a recent developments section that is not recent anymore. As to the promotional tone I think this is probably easier to deal with. By its nature it is probably going to come across a bit promotional. There is some in the wind power section that could be toned down a bit. Also lacking references in the "Advanced solar concepts" section and a few other places. 94:"Enercon, based in Aurich, Northern Germany, is the third-largest wind turbine manufacturer in the world and the market leader in Germany. As of April 2007 Enercon had installed 11,006 wind turbines, with an overall power of 11,703 GW. Their most-often installed model is the E-40 (the number indicates the rotor diameter in meters), which pioneered the gearbox-less design in 1992. Enercon has production facilities in Germany, Sweden, Brazil, India and Turkey." No reference, makes challengable superlative claims (third largest? market leader? according to whom? needs ref) 31: 1199:

is simmilar to the unfortunate effect of state interference in mining and other areas with subsidies on things that are not clearly profitable for the sake of maintaining political stability. For example the use of fresh water/brine interface powerplants using fuel cells is overlooked, for highly inefficient and expensive to manufacture solar cells that are subsidised in favor of by the CGA (central govermental authority) of different states.

1349:"In June or July of 1981, on the bleakest day of my professional life, they descended on the Solar Energy Research Institute, fired about half of our staff and all of our contractors, including two people who went on to win Nobel prizes in other fields, and reduced our $ 130 million budget by $ 100 million," recalls Denis Hayes, the founder of Earth Day, who had been hired by Carter to spearhead the solar initiative. 88:"In many northern European countries, combined hot water and space heating systems (solar combisystems) are used to provide 15 to 25% of home heating energy (see Solar hot water article)." Contains a stat of unclear source; also while we are at it, don't put "see also" statements in the body. Use the template at the start of the section, such as {{details}} or {{see also}}... 1204:

Goverment. While he may be opinionated passionate and whatnot, I strongly disagree with his views being used, as it strongly undermines the neutrality of the article in relation to the discussed topic. Unless of course, it is taken as a warning and a subsection labeled "green politics" is developed which will contain the list of people and their views on said subject.

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central to the article, but I have found it difficult to get recent sources. What source do you have that says that: "FirstSolar is now almost 2x as large as Q-cell, and Vestas has a 20% market share, not 28%"? On the third point, I think it would actually be confusing to bring in material discussing generations of other technologies.

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Obviously it was relevant in 2007 when created but now that PV and wind have been commercialized I think this article should be deleted or merged into another, as I think nowadays commercialization of other renewable technologies would be better discussed in their individual articles. Being so out of

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C) Ties in to my oposition to point B) - if those technologies are not EROEI positive, or they require large amounts of fossil fuel to build the infrastructure (metals are extracted using FF - steel, magnesium, cement for concrete and others...). The attempt to mix the political and the economic here

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With the speed of current developments, the mentioning of leading companies is very easily outdated. For example, FirstSolar is now almost 2x as large as Q-cell, and Vestas has a 20% market share, not 28%. Of course, it is possible to continuously update these paragraphs, but to avoid a lot of double

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I've been asked to copy edit this article, so I'm starting to do so. Please alert me to any mistakes that I introduce into the article, so I don't make the same mistake in the future. I will leave internal questions and comments inside the article at times when I don't understand something. These are

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B) Again, options more than facts. Yes, the technology is rapidly improving. This is however not a panacea, and is limited to the thermodynamic laws which hold and still apply. Thus technological hurdles and inability to surmount them are suppresed in an emotionally hyped up "buy my shares now" type

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A) First portion is true (fuel is free from then on). The second portion (effectively limitless) is such that only an intelectually challanged person could make such a statement. The amount is effectively limited by our ability to extract the raw resources necessary for the required infrastructure

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The article seems too much focused on the US, especially wrt examples used (for example: mention of the Reinvestment Act, mentioning examples of US wind parks rather then global, or mentioning only US Ethanol plants. The remainder of the article does a good job of taking a global perspective, but

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I'm not sure that the list of companies is necessary. It looks like an advertisement right now. Why not just mention them when discussing which products they produce in the previous sections? Or perhaps a small list of links entitled "Leading renewable energy companies" at the end of the article?

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The article does look much improved from even the last time I saw it. This is becoming a good article. A user on my talk page left a request to copyedit this article. Unfortunately, as far as writing goes I am really a diner and not a chef; I know when my food tastes bad but I couldn't cook it

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By the definition in this article: "Second-generation technologies ... are now entering markets as a result of research, development and demonstration (RD&D) investments since the 1980s. Initial investment was prompted by energy security concerns linked to the oil crises of the 1970s but the

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I therefore propose that this entire section be moved to the topic "Al Gore" or "Green politics" which are more suited to this opinionated and unscientific personal views of an idividual that has started his university degree as an English Major, shifted to Climate Science and ended majoring in

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Thanks for you reply and edits. The most recent data (consulting / broker reports) is not public unfortunately, but the numbers can also be found here The last source is 3/4 historical data and 1/4 projections, yet the changes in market shares are so significant that this is relevant enough to

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C) Third, once the world makes a clear commitment to shifting toward renewable energy, the volume of production will itself sharply reduce the cost of each windmill and each solar panel, while adding yet more incentives for additional research and development to further speed up the innovation

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Thanks for your comments. On your first point, I've made a few recent edits which remove some US material, and I think your recent edits have helped to bring in a more global perspective too. On the second point, I'm happy to keep the article updated as I think the "leading companies" info is

175:, one of the better copyeditors here at Knowledge and someone who has done wonders for my articles. She may also appreciate if the editors of this article contact her directly. She is often quite busy, but also does some requests. You can also try to post the article for review from the 1133:

Most of the citations had no access dates and it seemed reasonable to remove old access dates from the few that did, for the sake of consistency. But I have no objections to being reverted, or even better, to someone going through and comprehensively adding updated access dates.

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The use of "three generations of technologies" is confusing, because there are other uses of "generations", for example in biodiesel technologies, and nuclear technologies. The article now mostly builds on one definition from the IEA, but would it be fair to mention other uses?

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I've added this sentence, which I think provides some useful context: "The Stern Review explains that of 20 key innovations from the past 30 years, only one of the 14 they could source was funded entirely by the private sector and nine were totally funded by the public sector."

1700:"With such a wide range of non-technical barriers, there is no "silver bullet" solution to drive the transition to renewable energy. So ideally there is a need for several different types of policy instruments to complement each other and overcome different types of barriers." 1355:

Had Reagan not squashed it, the research that Carter started could have triggered a substantial shift to solar, wind power and other renewable forms of energy - possibly providing as much as 25 percent of the nation's electricity supply, says Hayes, the Carter solar

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Commercialization of renewables involves both the private sector and the public sector, and I've tried to discuss both in this article. I'm not at all comfortable with the idea of giving these companies less space, as I think the article would become unbalanced.

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With such a wide range of non-technical barriers, there is no silver bullet solution to drive the transition to renewable energy. So there is a need for several different types of policy instruments to overcome different types of barriers and complement each

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The use of the word "ideally" here seems rather problematic, and in general the article seems to be written in a decidedly "clean energy adoptionist" style. Furthermore, there's a section on non-technical barriers to implementation, which mentions barriers

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All forms of energy are expensive, but as time progresses, renewable energy generally gets cheaper, while fossil fuels generally get more expensive. Al Gore has explained that renewable energy technologies are declining in price for three main reasons:

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B) Second, while fossil fuel technologies are more mature, renewable energy technologies are being rapidly improved. So innovation and ingenuity give us the ability to constantly increase the efficiency of renewable energy and continually reduce its

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Renewable energy commercialization involves a broad, diverse array of technologies, including solar photovoltaics, solar thermal power plants, solar heating and cooling systems, wind power, hydroelectricity, geothermal, biomass, and ocean energy

1352:"The solar water heating industry instantly went from a billion-dollar industry to an industry that now installs, in the U.S., about 6,000 solar hot water heaters a year," said Noah Kaye, spokesman for the Solar Energy Industries Association. 104:

Fix that one MOS issue and find those references, and this article will be promoted as a GA. The hold will expire in 1 week; if the changes are not made it will have to fail (which would be a shame, since it is very close to passing)...

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if you are preparing to eventually bring the article to FA status. I can tell you that the writing will need some work in places to raise it from GA to FA status, but this article is a VERY good start towards becoming an FA. Good Job!

91:"Other large photovoltaic power stations, which have been proposed or are under construction, include: the Girrasol solar power plant (62 MW), Waldpolenz Solar Park (40 MW), and the Nellis Solar Power Plant (15 MW)." no source for stats. 99:

As an aside, based on the prior note, be VERY careful about the section on leading companies. This section looks well referenced now, but it could easily be open to abuse. Not really a GA issue, but just something to watch out

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such as the way power networks are constructed, but there's no section which discusses the flaws of current renewables themselves. The entire article definitely seems to be deliberately painting an unrealistically-rosy picture.

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https://web.archive.org/web/20160920202129/https://www.bmwi.de/BMWi/Redaktion/PDF/V/vierter-monitoring-bericht-energie-der-zukunft-englische-kurzfassung%2Cproperty%3Dpdf%2Cbereich%3Dbmwi2012%2Csprache%3Dde%2Crwb%3Dtrue.pdf

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A) First, once the renewable infrastructure is built, the fuel is free forever. Unlike carbon-based fuels, the wind and the sun and the earth itself provide fuel that is free, in amounts that are effectively

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But surely there are critics of this kind of technology and its commercialization? My point is that this kind of language is not very neutral and it does not really concede the existence of other viewpoints.

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perhaps low-reflection coatings and thermal expansion seals are an aspect of modern engineering/materials; i don't see how this belongs in third generation, if we are talking about technological development.

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What parts of this article are no longer relevant in 2020? What information might be more important than what is already included? How can this article be made less overwhelming to a casual reader?

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While some leading industrial countries have been reducing subsidies to fossil fuels, most notably coal, the United States has been increasing its support for the fossil fuel and nuclear industries.

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I like this article - in addition to some updates on the split between geothermal and EGS and wind power stats I already made, I have some small questions that popped up while I was reading it:

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https://web.archive.org/web/20120118064557/http://www.solarserver.com/solar-magazine/solar-news/current/2011/kw40/exelon-purchases-230-mw-antelope-valley-solar-ranch-one-from-first-solar.html

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Perhaps, then, more could be added to each company's section (one- and two-line sections are discouraged). A fuller explanation would itself make an argument for the sections' inclusion.

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many new large-scale solar power stations are now being constructed (PS-10, Andasol I, Nevada Solar One, Ausra, etc) and the technology is definitely emerging out of the R&D phase.

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Mentioning Al Gore as an authoritative source for anything science or engineering related will drive up the blood pressure of anyone with a science degree without a vested interest.

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Such as biogasoline and algae fuel... I'm sure there are probably others. These may be in the pre to post (or in the midst of the beginning) beginning stages of commercialization.

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https://www.bmwi.de/BMWi/Redaktion/PDF/V/vierter-monitoring-bericht-energie-der-zukunft-englische-kurzfassung%2Cproperty%3Dpdf%2Cbereich%3Dbmwi2012%2Csprache%3Dde%2Crwb%3Dtrue.pdf

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I noticed that the "Non-technical barriers to acceptance" section is based on a US source. Since energy is a world-wide thing, shouldn't we have a more diversified source pool?

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Thanks again, Awadewit, for your helpful comments and questions. They have helped me get enthusiastic about the article again and have resulted in considerable improvements.

675:

The first paragraph of "Investment trends" is too vague - what governments? what sectors? what regions? The entire section feels a bit stubby, like it's missing information.

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Fleeting and superficial reference to a major hurdle: "and it may be difficult to integrate wind power into electricity grids in some cases". Citation inadequate for this.

721: 653: 577: 465: 2413: 1240: 236:- It seems to me that this sentence is missing something. It makes more sense without the word "commercialization" but the page is supposed to be about "renewable energy 685: 545: 429: 356: 323: 282: 250: 927: 874: 746: 313:

I think that a clearer distinction needs to be drawn between PV cells and solar thermal energy. It is not clear to me right now exactly what that distinction might be.

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https://web.archive.org/web/20161006040920/http://www.bmwi.de/English/Redaktion/Pdf/energy-concept%2Cproperty%3Dpdf%2Cbereich%3Dbmwi%2Csprache%3Den%2Crwb%3Dtrue.pdf

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enduring appeal of these technologies is due, at least in part, to environmental benefits. Many of the technologies reflect significant advancements in materials."

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is to concede the point that other technologies also have an important role to play. So I see this perspective as actually accomodating the views of any critics.

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renewed interest arose in the 1970s and led to the construction of the SEGS plants, still some of the largest single-site renewable power stations in the world.

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I'm happy for the article to stay at GA level, but if a keen editor (who is good with reference formatting) wants to take the article further, that's fine too.

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https://web.archive.org/web/20140620031627/http://www.postcarbonpathways.net.au/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Post-Carbon-Pathways-Report-2013_Final-V.pdf

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https://web.archive.org/web/20131023062136/http://www.renewableuk.com/en/publications/index.cfm/Offshore-Wind-Forecasts-of-future-costs-and-benefits

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http://www.solarserver.com/solar-magazine/solar-news/current/2011/kw40/exelon-purchases-230-mw-antelope-valley-solar-ranch-one-from-first-solar.html

1222: 2682: 1835: 1053: 1286:. Ronald Reagan and Bush Senior killed the initiative (Carter ?), otherwise ... And it is not only electricity, but the development of the first 792: 1805: 1769: 1749: 195: 2364: 2259: 844: 839: 2598: 474:

It's not unusual in the literature on technological change to talk about "no silver bullet solution", but have softened the wording a little.

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https://web.archive.org/web/20100308014920/http://www.iea-gia.org/documents/FridleifssonetalIPCCGeothermalpaper2008FinalRybach20May08_000.pdf

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work, another suggestion would be to link to the primary articles on wind power and solar power, and keep these pages as recent as possible.

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It is really that entire paragraph. If you don't think so, feel free to solicit other opinions. Such things are very subjective, I know.

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https://web.archive.org/web/20150902091230/http://www.terra-genpower.com/News/Terra-Gen-Power-Announces-Closing-of-%24650-Million-.aspx

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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

1943:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

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https://web.archive.org/web/20120416031610/http://www.ren21.net/Portals/97/documents/GSR/REN21_GSR_2010_full_revised%20Sept2010.pdf

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https://web.archive.org/web/20131018001736/http://about.bnef.com/press-releases/global-trends-in-renewable-energy-investment-2013/

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https://web.archive.org/web/20120128172123/http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/prog/energy/renewable_energy/2012_priority_projects.html

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https://web.archive.org/web/20071128074454/http://www.interacademycouncil.net/Object.File/Master/12/053/Executive%20Summary.pdf

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and a miriad of other factors. Another issue is that the energy density of renewables efectively limits us anywhere we go.

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I noticed that this review is still open. After three months without improvement, I think it would be fair to delist it.

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http://www.bmwi.de/English/Redaktion/Pdf/energy-concept%2Cproperty%3Dpdf%2Cbereich%3Dbmwi%2Csprache%3Den%2Crwb%3Dtrue.pdf

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https://web.archive.org/web/20101113030810/http://public.sempra.com/newsreleases/viewPR.cfm?PR_ID=2536&Co_Short_Nm=SE

1214: 865:. The article looks better without redlinks, and Knowledge's coverage of U.S. ethanol companies has been expanded, too! 1937: 832:

is inserting is unsourced, dubious, an NPOV violation, and, although this is not completely relevant, clearly false. —

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https://web.archive.org/web/20070831013044/http://www.cleantechnology.com.au/pdf/ctf2007slides/CTF2007_CleanEdge.pdf

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https://web.archive.org/web/20090420000438/http://www.awea.org/publications/reports/AWEA-Annual-Wind-Report-2009.pdf

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http://www.iea-pvps.org/fileadmin/dam/public/report/technical/PVPS_report_-_A_Snapshot_of_Global_PV_-_1992-2014.pdf

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https://web.archive.org/web/20120315003300/http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/btenvironmentra/707.php

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Yes, the Investment trends section needs to be expanded. Is there anyone else who would care to help with this?

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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the

2310:

to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the

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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the

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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the

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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the

82:, preferably in the first sentance, and doubly-preferably as the first words of the article. This needs fixing. 1836:

https://web.archive.org/web/20091122133933/http://www.unep.fr/scp/rpanel/pdf/Assessing_Biofuels_Full_Report.pdf

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And geothermal sources searching started in the '70s, followed by commercial power development in the 1980s. --

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https://web.archive.org/web/20110905003859/http://www.ren21.net/Portals/97/documents/GSR/GSR2011_Master18.pdf

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https://web.archive.org/web/20110905003859/http://www.ren21.net/Portals/97/documents/GSR/GSR2011_Master18.pdf

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https://web.archive.org/web/20110905003859/http://www.ren21.net/Portals/97/documents/GSR/GSR2011_Master18.pdf

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http://www.postcarbonpathways.net.au/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Post-Carbon-Pathways-Report-2013_Final-V.pdf

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A few stats have unclear sources, especially in places where specific powerplants power ratings are quoted:

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Thank you for reviewing. I have made improvements as per your suggestions. Please see what you think. --

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https://web.archive.org/web/20100820221548/http://www.ren21.net/globalstatusreport/REN21_GSR_2010_full.pdf

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I have just completed creating new entries for the four redlinked biofuel companies cited in the article:

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http://www.renewableuk.com/en/publications/index.cfm/Offshore-Wind-Forecasts-of-future-costs-and-benefits

643:- "increasing support" is vague - do you have any numbers for this as you do in the previous paragraphs? 2527:

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https://archive.is/20130704002836/http://www.ekoenergy.org/where-can-i-buy-it/questions-and-answers

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Thanks, Awadewit, have revised the lead in the light of your comments. Hope it is an improvement.

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http://www.iea-gia.org/documents/FridleifssonetalIPCCGeothermalpaper2008FinalRybach20May08_000.pdf

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Should we not start from 1970 ? Almost 400 MW of solar power was in production well before 2000.--

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Public policy has a role to play because the free market system has some fundamental limitations.

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Is this page in AE or BE? "commercialization" led me to think AE, but then I saw "programme"....

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