973:'s point, at this moment we can safely say that plenty of allegations have been made, but nobody now claims or has ever claimed that Putin has ever owned this building. At best, his political opponents have stated that the building was meant for his or Medvedev's use, and was financed through corruption. All that should be detailed in this article. But for now, we shouldn't call it "Putin's palace," since we know it was never owned by him, it has been owned by others, and we only have allegations, by his opponents, that Putin planned to use it. If the whole thing turned out to be nonsense we would change the title to "conspiracy theory..." but that's not known either. -
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reputable sources a fair crack of the whip. The serious
Russian newspapers, chiefly Kommersant and Vedomosti, do not have much coverage, for reasons one can only speculate about...As for 'sceptical digging' a quick glance doesn't reveal much, and certainly not from reputable sources. The true sceptical digging was done by Novaya Gazeta, and this is covered. As for reducing the claims section, I think it is quite important that it is fairly detailed, especially as the sources it draws on (especially the Snob article) are likely to be inaccessible to many readers because of the language barrier you mention.
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1321:, a significant new media organization that simply has their full-length videos hosted on Youtube. They are not explicitly listed under unreliable sources and usually hold a position critical of the Russian government. Now, to important point. Mash video contains actual footage from the construction site, showing a significant discrepancy with Navalny's video, which is a very expensive computer animated fantasy. The way article is written now causes most readers to mistake
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official denials. I believe that it should be returned to the
Palaces in Russia category as, regardless of its intended use, it is clearly a palace in architectural terms. I believe that it is of mid-level importance according to the Russia project's guidelines and, without wishing to blow my own trumpet, that it is better than a start-class article, as it provides a comprehensive discussion of the issue that would meet the needs of most non-specialists.
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recognizable in the information space. The proposed title of the article is misleading, interfering with the search, and unjustified. No one will search for information about the Palace through the search query "Residences at Cape
Idokopas". Because there is no such residence. For ten years this building has been referred to as "Putin's Palace". And only in this context is it significant.
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more to present this. (You two probably are much more familiar with the scope of the coverage out there - I have to rely on Google for my translations, and whatever
English sources there are, so correct me if my view of 'the bulk of the press' is incorrect). Is there anything perhaps out there that does some skeptical digging into Kolesnikov's claims, or on his motives behind all this? —
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any way be taken as an implicit epistemic claim. The fact that they are allegations is explicit in the introductory remarks to the sections, as well as the beginning of the article as a whole. I shall see if this can be made clearer. Would you support my suggestion of renaming the article, better to reflect its contents, and would this substantially meet your concerns? Thanks again.
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reduces the total amount of well-sourced material. And environmental concerns are not insignificant. Your last edit also leaves some poor sense ('another sortie'). I wonder whether the best way of resolving this neutrality issue would be to call the page 'Putin's Palace (allegations)', in recognition of the fact that Putin's role is contested. Thanks again.
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1. So, whoever decided to release the report, released it. Did you see it? It is documentary footage from the site, which should speak for itself. As opposed to imaginary CGI, which could draw anything. In my opinion, is the site clearly an empty concrete shell with no furnishings whatsoever yet. For
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There is a similar discussion going on over on the
Russian Wiki, I've seen no evidence to suggest that "Putin's Palace" is a common term for it over there as their wiki lists it as a tertiary name. That being said I am hesitant to name a structure based on an investigative report from an oppositional
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I see no violation of NPOV. The allegations are clearly presented as such. Coverage in the mainstream press, such as
Washington Post and The Telegraph, which check facts, speaks for itself. Official denials are properly noted, as well as independent corroborations obtained by Russian civic groups and
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Thanks, Russavia. You don't give any examples, but I would imagine (correct me if I'm wrong) that your objection relates to the long narrative section detailing the allegations. It is true that I have not said 'it is alleged' after every sentence, but this is a point of prose style and should not in
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I didn't remove the reference to the activists for NPOV reasons, it was because I thought it was too much detail for the lead, and it just hasn't been re-added yet. And I agree about the 'another sortie' thing, that can be fixed with some further reorganization, that I'm still trying to work through
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As for the "next to no information on opposing views", at least from what I've seen, the bulk of the press out there is covering the allegations, whereas the government has only so far briefly laughed them off. So of course there will be more time spent on the allegations, but I think too we can do
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of luxury interiors for photographic stills. This is principally dishonest! The mash videos clearly shows the construction site with no interior trimmings at all. Moreover, does a large number of identical bedrooms suggest an hotel, and not a private palace. Which would suggest some kind of central
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I think the big "Whistleblower claims" section can be pared down to be more consise, without getting bogged down in the details, it might communicate more accurately and neutrally that way. As for the title of the article, I think it is fine where it is right now - that is how most media refers to
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There is no "Residence at Cape
Idokopas" yet. Does not exist officially, does not exist by name. This building is not officially recognized as a private or state residence of the president and is unlikely to be. At the moment, only Putin's Palace exists as something consistently understandable and
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Many thanks for your work on the page
Akrabbim, it looks excellent. I was perhaps somewhat too bullish in my first post above, though I stick by the substance of my arguments: I don't think your removal of references to the activists who visited the estate improves the neutrality - it really just
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is deprecated on
Knowledge, it is often the first source to investigate this type of claim and frequently quoted in other mainstream media. More media have weighed in and we still don't know the extent of the construction of the building, what it's intended use is or who owns it. Per RS we cannot
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Thanks, Akrabbim, for making the good point that when a government spokesman essentially stonewalls arithmetical equality (in terms of words, or whatever) in coverage is impossible. But arithmetical equality is not the same as neutrality; I think the article gives all points of view covered in
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I was the original author of the article, though others have made very important contributions. I believe that the article complies with neutrality guidelines, including as it does the major claims of the whistleblower, as reported by the international media, without endorsing them, as well as
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I found some additional articles on the english RIA Novosti website that could be used as references. When I get around to it I will incorporate them in, but feel free to beat me to it. I am also putting here a reference that I removed when I did some editing in the lead section, that can be
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The audio track to
Navalny's movie is obviously a machine translation from English. An obsolete American term "mudroom" has been translated as actual "room with mud", which makes preciously little sense in Russian. It also makes no sense if your Google Translate or whatnot defaults to British
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On 2021-Feb-01 Sergey Titov, deputy editor-in-chief of «Mash», said that the decision to release a report on «Putin’s palace» was made by «people in suits», not Mash employees, and compared what was happening with censorship in the USSR. In this regard, he announced his retirement from the
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Since this is currently in the news, I suggest we wait until reliable sources provide information about it. So far all we have is speculation. It could be that the correct name will be "Putin's palace conspiracy theory." Maybe "Trump International Hotel and Tower (Russia)."
1051:- "Putin's Palace" would appear to be the most commonly used name for this, but if not then then surely a better name can be found than "Residence at Cape Idokopas"??? Perhaps "Cape Idokopas Palace" or "Cape Idokopas Residence", or something less awkward and unclear.
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3. There is absolutely no trace of the mold. Rather, it looks like the construction never progressed beyond the current state, where there is not even any electrical wiring laid. Fighting mold does not requires demolishing a complete building back to the raw shell
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I can kind of see why Russavia thinks that the article is not neutral. While most of the media coverage out there focuses on the accusatory claims, we can still be more objective in the language we use. I have rewritten parts of the lead section in light of this
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I did not say the palace never existed but that "No reliable sources have claimed that ever existed." There is a difference between those two statements. It may exist or it may not exist. No reliable sources say it exists, but tomorrow they may. Also, while the
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The problem with the article is that it is presenting allegations as fact, and has next to no information on opposing views. Whether allegations are true or not, this is not for us to present, but we need to provide all sides of the allegations. There are also
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party against a ruling party. This may certainly go against some "reliable sources", but more and more often the diction of headlines are designed to gather interest in the shortest phrase possible and aren't necessarily appropriate for an encyclopedia. -
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I have slightly rewritten the section on recent ownership to more closely bring it in line with the available sources. Since the purchase by Ponomarenko in 2011, is there any information on ownership now. Does Ponomarenko still own the property after his
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because "Russian prosecutors refused to open an official criminal investigation of the poisoning, claiming they found no sign that a crime had been committed". This name is a common name of this object and seems fine to use here
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Even if it is not formally owned by Putin but intended for his use and constructed for him and intended to be controlled by Putin, then "Putin's Palace" is correct. But what matters is that reliable sources described it this way
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OK, I read this page only to find out that you consider any British tabloid a more reliable source than the Russian Wiki. Great. You did not bother to explain the second revert. My source is not a "no-name Youtube channel", but
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My main issue with it isn't that it's a popular name, rather that it's a popular name and could very well be inaccurate. Hopefully more will come out in the next few days and we can put this issue to rest.
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The name Putin Palace/Putin's Palace is short, natural and recognizable name. Search engine test confirms that "Putin's Palace" is more popular than Residence Idocopas whatever the other name is.--
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OK, that's good to know. Though I think that section should be better cited, so you can tell what information comes from where, before someone who isn't as familiar with the sources can do any
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This is the common name given to the palace complex in reliable sources, and it has no official name, so a move is not warranted here (and in fact would explicitly contradict Wiki policy). --
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A president of Russia gets to use it for free while in office, but also after he retires. Why in the world would he buy a second, lesser palace and pay its massive running costs himself?
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even say it exists, because we don't yet have RS. And yes Trump was planning a hotel on the Black Sea, so this could be it. Like everything else, it's just speculation.
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2. The wrought iron double eagle on the gates is the coat-of-arms of Montenegro instead of Russia (There is a lion instead of St.George slaying a dragon on the shield)
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Given both this rewrite and the FACT that ownership by Putin was never factually substantiated, the overall title of this article should be in quotes "Putin's Palace".
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English, where the word never existed. (supposed to mean some kind of secondary or backdoor entryway in a posh house, where dirty/wet clothes were to be kept)
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independent media. The issue is already a part of Putin's story and has had a widespread impact, judging by thousands of references in the Russian Internet. --
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I realise I was unfair to those newspapers and am currently using them for more references. Unfortunately, I think most will only be in Russian.
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A discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. If you feel the deletion can be contested then please do so (
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A discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. If you feel the deletion can be contested then please do so (
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A discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. If you feel the deletion can be contested then please do so (
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1188:- I personally came to this article by searching "putin palace black sea." That's the commonly used name, even if Putin denies ownership.
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Why is it "not neutral and fails WP:BLP"? We are not claiming that Putin de jure owns the palace. Please, remember, that
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The builder, who visited the palace in the fall of 2018, confirmed that the redevelopment began in 2018 due to mold (
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I can name many articles that are named differently in different Wikis. This comparison with RuWiki makes no sense.
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and now he says something about Trump hotel in Russia. It can not be serious. And please, read this -
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In 2011 environmentalists took a photo of the main pool (it is located near the aqua-diskotheque):
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concerns may consist of, these were never clearly articulated, which seems like a fair argument.
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Given the fact that Dresdner Bank hasn't existed since May 2009, shouldn't this image be amended?
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Neither a neutrality or BLP issue, that does appear to be the common name of the palace complex.
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has further information). Otherwise consider finding a replacement image before deletion occurs.
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has further information). Otherwise consider finding a replacement image before deletion occurs.
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has further information). Otherwise consider finding a replacement image before deletion occurs.
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has further information). Otherwise consider finding a replacement image before deletion occurs.
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the CGI, you might as well claim it being inside of the Castle Wolfenstein.
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1282:- at this point you may not revert it back as you did -
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1278:- it was reverted and explained why -
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167:. 19 Jan 2011
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123:|trans-title=
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169:. Retrieved
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146:. Retrieved
144:. 3 Mar 2011
139:
125:suggested) (
98:. Retrieved
93:
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60:
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37:
1156:Oranjelo100
1092:78.45.8.129
993:WP:CRITERIA
814:) has made
727:move review
670:investment?
611:copyediting
164:RIA Novosti
141:RIA Novosti
36:This is an
1226:Jtbobwaysf
1177:¿question?
1012:Daily Mail
775:Jtbobwaysf
482:Neutrality
907:Telegraph
736:not moved
121:ignored (
61:Archive 1
1425:Muchandr
1404:Anoneska
1389:Anoneska
1349:Muchandr
1266:Muchandr
652:Kolokol1
616:Akrabbim
586:Akrabbim
556:Russavia
539:Akrabbim
510:Akrabbim
190:Akrabbim
110:cite web
1312:RenatUK
1203:Oppose:
1173:Alaexis
1124:"fails
1109:Drevolt
975:Darouet
967:Support
912:Reuters
898:English
879:Support
861:Comment
823:Oppose.
789:Support
171:28 July
148:28 July
100:22 July
39:archive
1417:state.
1378:source
1365:source
1272:WP:BRD
1186:Oppose
1169:Oppose
1148:Oppose
1126:WP:BLP
1122:Oppose
1105:Oppose
1084:Oppose
1071:Okorok
1066:Oppose
1049:Oppose
915:2021:
910:2014:
905:2011:
844:Oppose
792:WP:NPV
771:WP:BLP
748:WP:BLP
695:Alssa1
676:Moryak
552:WP:BLP
1385:photo
1296:Renat
1209:"!!
997:Renat
935:Renat
831:Renat
16:<
1429:talk
1393:talk
1353:talk
1300:talk
1284:diff
1280:diff
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1194:talk
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1160:talk
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1096:talk
1075:talk
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1038:talk
1021:talk
1001:talk
979:talk
954:talk
939:talk
931:etc.
921:Time
888:talk
870:talk
852:talk
835:talk
812:talk
799:talk
779:talk
752:El_C
699:talk
680:talk
656:talk
630:talk
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570:talk
525:talk
505:diff
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465:talk
400:talk
335:talk
251:talk
173:2011
150:2011
127:help
102:2011
1017:TFD
971:TFD
917:BBC
866:TFD
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