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Talk:Muslim Sicily

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1318:
and Calabria for centuries (9th–11th) deserves full coverage and is only tangentially related to the emirate(s) of Sicily. The history of Saracen mercenaries in southern Italy, be they in the employ of the Greeks or Lombards in the 9th century or the Normans in the 11th/12th, is worthy of treatment and is not part of the "Emirate of Sicily". The "cultural effect" of which I spoke is most evident and could be covered here. The architectural heritage of Islam (on the Normans and subsequent) is a "cultural effect" and this effect is even found, to a much lesser degree, in the mainland. The cultural impact need not persevere down to the present day, rather it outlasted the Muslims by centuries and that is important, even if it is hard to see it today.
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weight. The whole article is about the Islamic conquest of Sicily. A single section about the treatment of the conquered population during this century of domination is in order. Not covering it would rather be a sugar coating of the fact that the indigenous population was, in fact, conquered and placed in a subservient position. (You will note that the article also covers the discrimination against the Muslims after the island was conquered by the Normans in the Aftermath section.) Also, the section does not only list restriction on the conquered population, it notes that they were allowed freedom of religion subject to the restrictions listed. The material cites to verifiable reliable sources, does not push a point of view, and is proper.
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enough description that it doesn't make sense as a comparative term in an nGram). On the topic, there is some confusion in the article text, with it being about "an Islamic kingdom" but covering a time period that encompasses multiple polities. Nonetheless, the body seems to encompass the entire period without significant distinctions, lending support for the article covering the broader topic and thus best titled with the broader name.
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The two arguments above are a bit contradictory, if the terms describe different topics (point 2) they cannot be in competition as common names for the same topic (point 1). That said, point 2 is relevant and compelling, as it raises the question of the article topic (and "Muslim Sicily" is a generic
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The Taifa period section, where I just did some reordering and rewriting, ends with the sentence, "After the conquest of Sicily, the Normans removed the local emir, Yusuf Ibn Abdallah from power, but did so by respecting Arab customs." I think this needs expressed better but I really don't know what
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The beneficial economic effects are discussed in the prior section -- the breaking up of the large landholdings, new irrigation, introduction of crops, and even the thriving butchers! This section was added to give balance to that section that created the impression that the conquest was an entirely
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I added some new material to this section, but left the original material even though it has some internal inconsistencies and needs additional editing. I personally think we should try to steer clear of the myth of religious harmony and coexistence. It is true that the Muslims were not immediately
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Cultural impact?? hahaha You have to be joking, incase you haven't noticed there is a grand total of 0.0000000000001% people who follow the Muslim religion in southern Italy today. A couple of days of Islam in Sicily hundreds of years ago has not left cultural effect (which anyway can be discussed in
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Why downplay the history of Islam in southern Italy, which includes places other than Sicily (or Apulia or Calabria) and covers a time period that begins 200 years earlier than the emirate? Articles are not limited to "successful events", so that argument is a non-starter. Why should an article about
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Leaving aside the edit-warring from a particular user or users trying to impose other problematic edits, one minor thing that can be addressed more straightforwardly I think is to remove the word "Moors" in the lead. While this is a historical exonym, it does not actually have a specific meaning and
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Garigliano, though part of the Papal States, is regularly covered in the history of southern Italy (since all the powers of southern Italy united against the Muslims there). The Emirate of Bari cannot be seriously covered in any way at this article. The continuous raiding, by land and sea, in Apulia
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itself explains), not to mention that some people consider it a demeaning term in one way or another. I'd suggest just saying "Muslims" instead of "Muslim Moors", as "Moors" isn't really necessary here anyways; if an ethnic description is required here or elsewhere, we can simply specify "Arabs and
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This article describes the entire period of Arab-Muslim rule in Sicily, and for a large part of that period its status was not an independent emirate, as the article itself indicates. In this context, the title "Emirate of Sicily" is unclear and awkward. "Muslim Sicily" (or equivalent) is simpler,
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The emirate is clearly the only "successful" event from the eyes of muslims, so the information on it belongs here. Emirate of Bari already redirects to this article. The extreme tips of southern Italy (ie- small parts of Calabria and Puglia) that islam was able to touch, was during the exact same
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Can you cite to another reliable verifiable authority that suggests the view of this section is flawed? Or are you just speculating by how it feels? Are you objecting to POV or undue weight? What exactly is your objection? What is your suggestion for improvement? I do not think it is undue
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Im not interested enought in the Emirate of Sicily to search for sources. If you realy think the section is ok want you can remove the template. I dont think it is neutral because it emphatises too much negative aspects. There must for sure also have been positive sides of the conquest such as
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The source for this section is distinctly weak: it is not based on any knowledge of circumstances in Sicily, but rather on the assumption that conditions there were identical to those in other (unspecified) parts of the Muslim world. The author (unlike our article) is quite open about this:
920:, under the control of the emir. Both articles clearly cover the same thing and there doesn't need to be two... as this was an actual country, or emirate, then this is the article that should remain. Feel free to put your efforts into bettering this article with any information you have. - 1637:
It is worth noting that everything that I wrote about the dhimmi, and what I will say about the slaves, was drawn from the examples of other countries, but it should be considered as prescribed in Sicily as well, due to the similarity of the circumstances and the uniformity of Muslim
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article is far too narrow in scope: it only covers the history of Islam in Sicily during the years 965-1072. The Muslims first attacked Sicily in 652, long before the Emirate was established in 965, and they also attacked other parts of southern Italy as well besides Sicily. The
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a Sicilian phase of history cover the story of the Saracen base on the Garigliano? Or the emirate established briefly at Bari? Or the raids into Lazio and the Duchy of Rome? Or many naval raids that struck the mainland? Or the cultural impact of Islam throughout southern Italy?
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You have been unable to provide evidence of such as "impact" in other places outside of the Emirate of Sicily or the mere tips of Apulia and Calabria (also taking into consideration the latter two was even more brief than Sicily) which would warrant two articles on the same
2393:.) There was also a continuation of relations with the Muslim world under the Normans, Arabic was still used as the language of administration for a few decades, and Islamic architectural features appeared in Norman architecture, but I'm not well-versed in the details. (" 1003:
time period, ruled by the same powers and lines as thus belongs in the article as this. There is a point in talking about the raids in the 800s because it led up to the eventual creation of the brief state in Sicily, that is the only notable thing about the raids period.
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How does it cover exactly the same thing? Is Sicily all of southern Italy? Was the emirate the only Islamic "event"? Your claim is just ludicrous. Islam has a history in southern Italy in the 8th and 9th centuries. What about the emirate of Bari? If you want to
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is a very reliable source on the history of the Muslims in Sicily. If his research is good enough for him, it should be good enough for WP, unless there is evidence that Sicily under Muslim rule deviated from "the uniformity of Muslim custom."
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This article covers also the first attacks a sentence even starts with "In 535", which were ulitimetly a failure. Only the smallest tips of Southern Italy were ever Islamic, and that was taken from the Byzantines and included within part of the
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this means, how one removes an emir from power by respecting Arab custom, the link is dead, and it was just a web page anyhow. And it this the last Sicilian Emir, or on Malta, also mentioned in the prior sentence? Can anyone help?
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I know less about Sicily, but I'd guess this was poorly phrased but presumably meant to say that Muslims were allowed to continue practicing their religion and customs for a while under Norman rule? (See some info and sources at
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As explained above, it covers the exact same scope on the exact same topic. Care to actually put fourth how it doesn't cover everything, rather than just leaving a message with absolutely no real information or explination? -
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covers the entire history of Islam in southern Italy from the 7th century up until the 13th century, from the very first Muslim invasions through to the Norman invasion and Holy Roman Empire. If you merge the article into
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this article). You don't seem to be able to get it through to you, this isn't a blog... all of the possible things that article covers, can be covered by this article on the actual historical state/"emirate".
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Don't merge the pages again, since you are opposed by three other editors and have no support. Emirate of Bari only redirects here b/c you redirected the other article and another editor fixed the double
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Berbers" (or whichever demographics are described in reliable sources). Normally I would be bold and just do it but since there's been edit-warring I wanted to check for consent here first.
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Yet another POV tag was placed on the Conquered Population section. What is the problem here? The section is sited to Michele Amari's preeminent treatise on the history of Islam in Sicily.
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Finally, please discontinue any allegations of "Islamophilia" and "blogging". I don't blog and this has nothing to do with blogging. In fact, I am a very small content contributor to
2506:, which should cover the period when the island was indeed de facto independent (after the mid-10th century) and when it can be more accurately described as an emirate (e.g. per 2257: 2253: 2137: 2133: 2029: 2025: 1905: 1901: 1765: 1761: 2724: 1235:
Jagged 85's opinions still count, whether he is "still" discussing or not. So do Pippu d'Angelo's (below) and Ian Spackman's (see his edit summaries). And mine. That's 4 to 1.
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suggests that something like "Muslim Sicily" is far more common. The article itself also makes little effort to explain this term and seems to use it only haphazardly.
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https://web.archive.org/web/20110714131710/http://images.alwialatas.multiply.com/attachment/0/RcF%401goKCrAAAB-to8o1/Islam%20in%20Sicily.doc?nmid=18936909
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increased wealth from commerce since Muslims dominated trade in the mediterranian at time. If you realy care about the article you should look at this.
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Incase you haven't noticed only me and you are still discussing this Jagged 85 (an Islamocentric) isn't even discussing anymore. Saracen raids in the
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positive event. It does not create an imbalance; It creates balance. Unless you have a specific objection, I am going to remove the dispute tag.
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them in a sensible way, do it. Don't just redirect an article with lots of content to a smaller one. But the emirate of Sicily is a
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The section conquerer population is POV because it does only mention a large list of restrictions put on christians. To mention
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What are these imginary events that you seem unable to speak of on here that supposedly couldn't be covered by this article?? -
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FWIW, agree too. The main sections of the article work well without this term, so there's no need to employ it in the lede. –
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Excellent point - I have the necessary references at home to be able to do it, so I might have a go in the next few days. --
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and there is no point talking about Islamic raids of the 800s or Islamic military bases on the mainland in such an article.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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The title is inaccurate because the article says the state was a kingdom, but the title says it’s an emirate.
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Stop associating emirate of Sicily with other religious groups it's false you don't know the history of Sicily
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http://images.alwialatas.multiply.com/attachment/0/RcF%401goKCrAAAB-to8o1/Islam%20in%20Sicily.doc?nmid=18936909
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https://web.archive.org/20140722113310/http://archaeology.stanford.edu/MountPolizzo/handbookPDF/MPHandbook5.pdf
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https://web.archive.org/20071128110352/http://www.deremilitari.org:80/resources/articles/saracen_archers.htm
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extirpated, and they sometimes worked together, but we still had a master race and a subservient race.
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https://web.archive.org/web/20070523045823/http://concise.britannica.com/ebc/article-9377080/Roger-II
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after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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900:, then a whole lot of information will be lost, and there is no way I can accept such a merger. 2507: 2355: 2276: 2203: 2156: 2048: 1924: 1784: 1649: 966: 925: 824: 2390: 938:
The article is far broader in scope than "Emirate of Sicily", so the merger is not a service.
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over emphatizes the discrimination and gives for sure a flawed view of the sitiation there.
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A POV dispute tag was added in December 2008. What is the dispute so we can work it out?
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was in the Papal States, which is not southern Italy or Sicily. Its central/north. -
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more descriptive, and more neutral with regard to its changing political status.
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Please stop associating emirate of Sicily with other religious groups it's false
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Unfortunately we have no article on the County yet. We move straight to the
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http://archaeology.stanford.edu/MountPolizzo/handbookPDF/MPHandbook5.pdf
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after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add
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after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add
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Is that good enough for Knowledge? or should we be more circumspect?
1363:. And I am not Muslim, I am Protestant. I don't "love" Islam at all. 256: 232: 2397:" (2002) by Jeremy Johns might have some useful information too.) 1982:
http://www.deremilitari.org/resources/articles/saracen_archers.htm
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to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
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http://www.deremilitari.org/resources/articles/saracen_archers.htm
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to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
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Not having received a response, I will remove the dispute tags...
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the
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established in 1130. Anyone interested in feeling the gap?
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http://concise.britannica.com/ebc/article-9377080/Roger-II
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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I don't see any evidence that "Emirate of Sicily" is the
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I have just added archive links to one external link on
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I have just added archive links to one external link on
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Arabic Administration in Norman Sicily: The Royal Diwan
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doesn't denote a well-defined group of people (as that
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Unknown-importance Italian historical states articles
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On 5 June 2024, it was proposed that this article be
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Please take a moment to review 2092:. Please take a moment to review 1968:. Please take a moment to review 1828:. Please take a moment to review 1700:. Please take a moment to review 1429:Norman conquest of southern Italy 625:Knowledge:WikiProject Middle Ages 2690:Knowledge level-5 vital articles 2667:The discussion above is closed. 759: 687: 666: 628:Template:WikiProject Middle Ages 592: 582: 561: 487: 477: 456: 358: 348: 321: 255: 231: 198: 189: 45:Click here to start a new topic. 2810:High-importance Sicily articles 2750:B-Class Muslim history articles 2715:B-Class former country articles 2651:. Leiden: E. J. 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