2149:"Cordial, however, and deep as were the impressions he retained of Scotland, he would sometimes in this, as in all his other amiable feelings, endeavour perversely to belie his on better nature; and when under the excitement of anger or ridicule persuade not only others, but even himself, that the whole current of feelings ran directly otherwise. The abuse which which in his anger against the ER he overwhelmed every thing Scotch is an instance of his temporary triumph of wilfulness; and at any time, the least association of ridicule with the country or its inhabitants was sufficient, for the moment, to put all his sentiment to flight. A friend of his once described to me the half-playful rage into which she saw him thrown one day, by a heedless girl, who remarked that she thought he had a little of the Scotch accent. "Good God, I hope not!" he exclaimed, "I'm sure I haven't. I would rather the whole damned country was sunk into the sea - I the Scotch accent!". (Thomas Moore,
2289:(and often still are) as synonyms for British and Britain. You do not really know what he was claiming when he says he was English unless he explicitly repudiates being Scottish. Personally I am not a fan of the idea that one's subjective perception is of much importance anyway. If I, a Brit, 'see myself' as Irish, do I become so? If being Irish is about seeing yourself as Irish then what exactly do I see myself as being? Do I see myself as a person that sees themself as a person that sees themself as a person...etc? And one's attitude to a particular country is of even less relevance. An Irishman that decides he doesn't like Irishmen doesn't stop being one. So anyway, I vote British. Who's with me?
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appear (from what I can discern) to have had a strong engagement with the locality of his baronial title (Rochdale). As regards "English Bards and Scotch
Reviewers", he was tongue-in-cheek contrasting his poetic works with the critical reviewers of the "Edinburgh Review", but a significant part of his poetry deals with Scotland. "Lachin Y Gaer" ("Lochnagar") is amongst his most famous poems and it demonstrates a connection with the north-east of Scotland (where he was educated between 1794 and 1798 and where his mother's family - the Gordons - hailed).
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insecurity, but it does not enlighten us here. I have made it clear that his engagement with
Scotland, Scottish culture, and Scottish connections continues through his adulthood; this is not based only on the nationalities of his parents, or only on where he spent his formative years, but on analysis of those facts and his continued engagement thereafter. Interestingly, that doesn't appear to be an aspect people in this conversation will acknowledge, although there is a wealth of high-quality scholarship to back it up.
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English, indeed being a displaced or exiled "son of
England" was a recurrent motif. He identified himself as English, and he was regarded as English in his time, both in Britain and in Europe. So I'd prefer to default to that. Any lingering Scottish connections can be dealt with in the main text, but it should not be in the lede as a matter of his main identity. As a matter of national identify, Byron was an English writer, not Anglo-Scottish, not British and not Italian.
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1901:'Anglo-Scottish' is a rather tortured and convoluted when 'British' quite clearly covers both those bases. Not that the point isn't interesting or worthy of mention/clarifying. I suggest the material on his sympathies lying more with a Scottish identity than an English one, assuming it can be supported by reliable sources, be placed somewhere in the actual article itself.
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I've replaced 'English' with 'British' in the part of the lede referring to 'regarded as being among the greatest of poets' since the poll was clearly for
British poets not English ones (Burns was included). I am also threatening to replace English with British in the first line of the lede, based on
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So what is wrong with
British? He had both English and Scottish ancestors. He spent considerable time in both places. Neither connection is so trivial that it should be ignored. Yes, he might have sometimes referred to himself as English sometimes, but remember English and England have long been used
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There is a lot of assertion going on here. I have evidenced and cited everything I have said; that's not true for everyone. It is particularly unhelpful for someone to project their own personal feelings onto the subject; I respect that
Walrasiad has identified their viewpoint as a sensitivity and an
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Thank you for all your input. With regards to Lord Byron's title, it belongs to the
Peerage of England because it was created (in the 17th century) before parliamentary union and so before the Peerage of Great Britain existed. Functionally, however, he sat in the House of Lords of the UK and does not
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In his time, Byron referenced the
Scottish aspects of his identity (see "Don Juan" for it being made irrevocably explicit), as well as by his lover Lady Caroline Lamb and his biographer Sir Cosmo Gordon. I have to repeat this because these are facts that are being ignored. I also cite scholarly work
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The
Gordons were of course a family with strong links to the north-east of Scotland (a branch of the Gordons held the Earldom of Huntly in north-east Scotland), and Byron corresponded with Aberdeenshire kin and relations all his life. He clearly had a Scottish component to his identity, as evidenced
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I have to disagree. Identity is a slippery thing, yes, and he had a cosmopolitan outlook. But time and time again, Byron emphatically identified himself as
English (when not pretending to be Italian). Throughout his poetry and his correspondence, he identified England as his home, and himself as
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Because of his Scottish heritage - his mother's family and his lifelong interaction with them; his time at Aberdeen Grammar School; the fact he is known to have referred to himself as a Scot - it is not wholly accurate to term him "English". I concede "Anglo-Scottish" is clunky and so I fully agree
2061:
As a person of multiple countries myself, I am a bit sensitive about who I claim to be. And should my Wiki biographers, a couple of centuries hence, decide to assign the place I lived in my youth (roughly the same timespan as Byron in Aberdeen) as my nationality, I would be very disappointed and
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He himself identified as at least partly Scottish, saying he was "half a Scot by birth, and bred/A whole one". In this, he vocally identified as a Scot. He was educated for a time at Aberdeen Grammar School and reportedly had a Scottish accent (albeit a faint one) throughout his life.
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Thank you for your input, Iskandar323 and Walrasiad. It is clear that Byron - so complex in many ways - had a complex national identity. Indeed, that he was such a proactive internationalist is an important part of his character (and why he is still revered in Greece and Albania).
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by his wearing tartan in his Greek campaign, visibly identifying with the (not that old) Scottish Highland martial tradition. He was also referred to by others as a Scot at the time, most famously by his lover Lady Caroline Lamb and by his first biographer Sir Cosmo Gordon.
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here, which is disruptive. Any further reverts without talk page consensus may result in blocks. You need to come to a consensus on how best to describe the subject before making changes to the page. If you aren't already familiar with it, please read
1919:
I will update the article; notwithstanding a prevailing Anglocentric ignorance in some quarters, there is a wealth of reliable sources - however overlooked in English historiography - indicating Lord Byron had a very complex national identity.
1916:"British" is a loaded term, full of 20th century assumptions and connotations; the term "Anglo-Scottish" was carefully chosen as a consequence to reflect an early nineteenth century cultural reality, however tortured some people may find it.
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what I wrote above and given that the sources cited do not actually say he was English. The first doesn't mention his nationality and the second is a dead link. But I will wait a bit to see if anyone wishes to dispute this.
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I'm sure modern nationalists would rather characterize him as a "self-hating Scot", like that whole baggage of 18th Century "North Britons" who even banished the term.
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Andrew Rutherford, "Byron, Scott, and Scotland in Charles E. Robinson (ed.) "Lord Byron and His Contemporaries: Essays from the Sixth International Byron Seminar"(1982)
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Jonathan Gross, "From Lord Nevil to Dugald Dalgetty: Byron's Scottish Identity in Italy", featuring in Alan Rawes and Diego Saglia (ed.), "Byron and Italy" (2020)
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He obtained a Royal Warrant, allowing him to "take and use the surname of Noel only" and to "subscribe the said surname of Noel before all titles of honour".
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Complicating things, regardless of his upbringing/identity, is his hereditary English peerage, as, regardless of anything else, he was an 'English' peer.
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The point about Byron's schooling from the ages of 5?-10 is definitely the weakest piece of information as a potential predicator of national identity.
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Lord Byron being described simply as "English" is not accurate but is rather a clumsy over-simplification of his complex national identity.
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To be fair, I think that all the evidence should be looked at in the round, rather than isolating single facts and questioning them.
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In Britain, "lying in state" takes place only in Westminster Hall. A public viewing in any other location is "lying in repose." --
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at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be
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Roderick Speer, "Byron and the Scottish Literary Tradition" in "Studies in Scottish Literature", Volume 14, Issue 1 (1979)
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Those who knew him best say he hosted, and certainly frequently expressed, rather anti-Scottish sentiments:
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For more evidence, see: Murray Pittock, "Scotland: The Global History, 1603 to the Present" (2022).
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I would appreciate other people evidencing their claims. Thank you both very much for your input.
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https://wordsworth.org.uk/blog/2015/04/21/bears-badgers-and-boatswain-lord-byron-and-his-animals/
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Scotland was also the subject of many of his poems, most notably "Lachin Y. Gaer".
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Anne Fleming, "In Search of Byron in England and Scotland" (1988)
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lists crocodile and honey badger.The article is referenced here.
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on this topic, and I am alone in doing so in this conversation:
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with Iskandar323 that "British" is the most appropriate term.
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From that point onwards it would seem that he was no longer
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Why is this not reflected in the lede and infobox? --
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He was, at least partially, Scottish in his identity.
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Ask'st thou the difference? From fair Phyles' towers
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32:This is the
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1903:Iskandar323
980:Structure:
339:renominated
265:written in
161:free images
44:not a forum
2354:Categories
2123:Scottymacd
2042:Scottymacd
1994:: you are
1988:Scottymacd
1922:Scottymacd
1888:Scottymacd
1853:Jack of Oz
1839:Jack of Oz
1468:discussion
789:Nottingham
382:Not listed
323:Lord Byron
38:Lord Byron
2276:Walrasiad
2064:Walrasiad
2022:(blether)
2009:Walrasiad
1969:Walrasiad
1180:Biography
1108:Biography
864:Biography
415:is rated
276:travelled
101:if needed
84:Be polite
34:talk page
2332:Article
2306:LastDodo
2291:LastDodo
2153:, p.12).
1817:We say:
1777:180 days
1732:Archives
1555:veganism
1359:Politics
1350:politics
1306:Politics
1117:Military
941:criteria
872:European
288:artefact
224:180 days
199:Archives
69:get help
42:This is
40:article.
2267:, 1811)
1700:on the
1595:on the
1386:on the
868:British
834:on the
736:on the
709:England
700:England
656:England
631:on the
526:on the
417:B-class
364:Process
292:analyse
284:defence
167:WP refs
155:scholar
2017:Summit
1673:London
1664:London
1620:London
1416:Person
604:Poetry
595:poetry
551:Poetry
499:Greece
490:Greece
446:Greece
423:scale.
367:Result
325:was a
280:centre
272:colour
139:Google
2338:Xx236
2014:Girth
1741:Index
1460:LGBTQ
1285:page.
404:This
204:Index
182:JSTOR
143:books
97:Seek
2342:talk
2310:talk
2295:talk
2280:talk
2127:talk
2082:talk
2068:talk
2046:talk
2007:and
1973:talk
1955:talk
1941:talk
1926:talk
1907:talk
1892:talk
1813:Noel
1804:talk
1557:and
1169:and
1125:Core
826:High
791:and
728:High
361:Date
175:FENS
149:news
86:and
1692:Low
1587:Low
1378:Low
623:Top
518:Mid
189:TWL
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