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in my opinion, should only be related to
Islamic music - not the narrower subtopic of whether or not it's religiously allowed. The section on permissibility of music is better now; a paragraph on scholars in the past who rejected music, a paragraph on scholars in the past who accepted it, and a paragraph on modern views. Not long paragraphs either, which is a good thing. It is my suggestion that we take the external links regarding whether or not music is religiously permissible in Islam, scavenge what we can for sources which are reliable and verifiable, and just use them as references in the permissibility of music section. This would keep this subtopic where it belongs and free up space in the external links section for links actually about Islamic music without causing the lower part of the article to be cluttered.
1040:(p. 492 onwards) which includes a fair entry about this topic. It does mention that instruments, sensuous or non-religious music and the like have generally been considered forbidden/discouraged in Muslim thought (with the exception of a few Sufi groups). It also notes that most Islamic music is in the forms of songs (i.e. wedding songs, lullabies, devotional), poetry, chants (work songs, caravan chants, military) is generally accepted - this also presents as anashid. It appears that the latter group was considered to be "nonmusic" and the more discouraged types were classed as "music" proper.
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945:. Secular science, on which Knowledge is based, is skeptical about the authenticity of any hadith. There is no proof of their authenticity other than based on faith. This doesn't mean they're all false, but we have no scientific means of determining their authenticity. Therefore it should always be "is reported to have said". Exceptions could be made only in a longer text where several hadiths are mentioned. In this case, the qualification isn't necessary every single time.
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that is the title of the article. I don't know any links because I don't listen to music, but my suggestion is more generally, for whoever knows some. I just think we could reduce "noise" in the article, if you're familiar with editing terms, by taking those links regarding the permissibility of music and trying to move them all into the appropriate subsection.
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wear silk, revel in music, etc. With all due respect, you and the others insisting that the illegality of music is established fact, are NOT being neutral. So it should be stated, "Muhammad is REPORTED to have said.." this way both sides are respected and it is left to the individual to research the veracity of those REPORTS themselves.
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today the "brass section" in world orchestras are called "Turkish section" in slang. The military music and military bands in the west is a
Turkish influence, So are the Turk marches of Mozart, Hyden and the other classical Composers. The classical Composers composed these because they were influenced by Mehter so much (
1227:
I am confused about the subject of this article. It's titled
Islamic music, which means music that in itself has something to do with Islam or expresses Islam. Then the article starts with a long section about musics in various majority-Muslim countries. Some of the music in those countries has to do
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To add to this, certain users are specifically violating NPOV in favor of the permissibility of music, inserting phrases such as 'which generally has no basis' and removing references to the specific positions of schools of thought. I will be reverting these changes. Please come here and discuss them
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Good! Glad to see others are taking an interest, and thank you for reading and replying. To clarify, what I meant by the polemics in specific was the external links section. My view - and it could be right or wrong - is that the external links should just be for links about
Islamic music only, as
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I would like to express a desire for this article, and I hope for feedback from other editors. The article itself is on
Islamic music; it would seem that, to an extent, it leaned toward being a polemical discussion around just one subtopic (the permissibility of music). The external links section,
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Also the current edit "Permissibility in music" is currently strongly POV, only the viewpoint representing "music is haram" is sufficiently represented here, and earlier comments and their sources have been deleted. In case you were the fellow who reverted, please, either re-revert, balance this out
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MezzoMezzo, this is completely false. The scholars have detailed quite clearly that just about ALL of the narrations attributed to the
Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وسلم) are weak with the exception of the one in al-Bukhari's Sahih about a sign of the End of Days wherein people will drink alcohol,
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I've noticed that each time I edit this page in an attempt to make it more balanced, somebody returns it to exactly the way it was before within the day. For instance, I would write "Muhammad supposedly said music is haraam" only to have it return to something like "Muhammad said", and then have my
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Myself, I don't see the point of citing stuff that is so well-known that any source would have it. That's an academic self-defense tic that isn't necessary in an encyclopedia. Stuff that is recherche or controversial should be cited. If I've missed any of that, I'll fix it. Just let me know what you
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When it comes to
Islamic music, permissibility is (and has historically been) the big debate. It maybe a sub-topic, but it's clearly an important one. I'm not sure I understand what you mean by polemical discussion or de-energizing. The section did the same thing before that it does now: briefly
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To my knowledge, there has been no scholarly criticism of the authenticity of the hadeeths - and it's not one hadeeth, but multiple ones - regarding the prohibition against music. In addition, this is actually found in most traditional tafseers of the Qur'an as well. Muhammad "supposedly" said is
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Who started this topic? What does the classical heartland of islam mean? Who the hell is the one who excluded Turkey from this list and why? What kind of ignorant is he and how come he thinks himself "more muslim" than Turks? He is unaware of the enormous
Turkish contribution to world music. Still
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If you check the edit pages of some of the main
Knowledge Islam articles, you will find there are a virtual army of editors, many Muslim themselves, who make a point of going through and removing any of the phrases of blessing other editors have inserted after names -- some people feel very, very
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Although I am not a muslim, I am aware that many
Muslims find naming of its key figures disrespectful without apropriate salutations, commonly "Peace be upon him". Would it be apropriate to edit the shortened form (pbuh) after the mentions of Mohamed(pbuh) and Allah(pbuh) in the article? A muslim
1099:). The sufi music is also well developed in Turkey. Shall i say that Jelaladdin Rumi lived most of his life and founded in Turkey? They made extensive use of musical instruments. Especiall "Nay". Please change the entrance accordingly. Classical heartland? Go and buy a book about the Ottomans!
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Adhan, Salat and Tajweed are all not musical or singing at all. I'd be interested in knowing how they are considered music. Adhan is "call to prayer", you do not sing it, you call it. You don't need any tune or rythem at all. calling salat singing is redculus, just because they say it all
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comments on the debate over the authenticity of a related hadith deleted. To whoever is doing this, please stop. Since music is a controversial subject, both sides of the coin need to be represented so the reader can make his or her own judgement on the material.
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The yahoo group that was listed under External Links contains a wealth of information, including photographs, lyrics, translations, song lists. In that respect, it's really no different from a web site? In view of that, can we leave it in?
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I also get the feeling that the person responsible is a Muslim. If that is the case then I strongly advise him/her to be more careful, because this is a subject that frightens many people away from Islam when presented with such spin.
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strongly that it reflects a bias. For many or most Muslims (myself included) it is simply not a big deal if the preference is to leave it off -- at the very least it is not something meant to be incumbent upon non-Muslims. --
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Read through the article again and you'll find other important styles of Islamic Music such as qawwali, ghazal, (musical) dhikr, etc. also note others such as ilahiler, qasidah, gnawa, jilala etc. The list goes on and on.
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Two articles sounds better to me as well. Note that the subjects are closely linked, so it is entirely appropriate to link liberally and maybe even duplicate some info (I'll leave it to others to decide exactly how).
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A bunch of the links I added, by copying the addresses from one browser to another, have stopped working. I don't understand quite WHY. Are there enough people clicking on them that they've gone over their allotment?
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or something along these lines. That's short and neutral. But either way, even if there's not a single Islamic scholar who disagrees on the authenticity of a given hadith, such a neutral phrasing is always needed.
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article. I don't think the recent insertions are constructive: the sources are generally not reliable and the shift in tone isn't encyclopedic. I'll try in the very near future to include a summary from the
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Ok. Fair enough. However, I would argue basic polite cultural courtesy is not POV. Keep in mind I am not muslim, so I am not coming from that POV. However, if the consensus is it is unnecesary, then fine.
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It is better to limit this article to "Islamic devotional music", as opposed to "Music of the Muslim world", as the Muslim world is incredibly diverse and not all of its musical tastes are connected to
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Nice work integrating my edits. I now accept the loss of citation as it would be too difficult to keep among the uncited information all mixed up, because it is preserved on the pages of those genres.
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please note that 'nasheed' is only one style of Islamic Music - therefore such a merger as you suggest would mislead fellow WikiReaders to believe that the only existing Islamic Music is nasheed!
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an insertion of POV as the insinuation is baseless. This is about presenting factual information to readers, not people's personal opinions or not "frightening people away from Islam".
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I don't really think it's disrespectful not to do that; it's only respectful to include that. However, Knowledge must maintain a neutral point of view, which means omitting
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https://web.archive.org/web/20061021205429/http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar%2FFatwaE%2FFatwaE&cid=1119503545728
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in honor of The Prophet-and that capitalization is standard English usage; or was till American English became the global standard), then something in praise of Hazrat
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I would prefer two articles as there is a wealth of information on both topics. Perhaps confusion such as this could be prevented through the use of sources.
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The word "sung" in the opening sentence has been replaced with "meowed" by a user with only a IPv6 address. This very much appears to be vandalism.
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Removed four sources that were no longer live links, leaving only one link discussing music being Haram in Islamic culture. Could use more sources.
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And when you say "links actually about Islamic music", it's not clear what you have in mind. If you have any good links, you should add them. --
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present both sides of the argument without taking sides. It's better organized now, but there's no meaningful change in the tone.
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Aha! That's EXACTLY the kind of information we need in the article. I'll try putting it in, but would sure appreciate help.
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friend once told me some muslims find it quite disrespectful, and disrespect is certainly not the intent of this article.
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Okay, so how do you want to break it up? Two parts of one article--in which case it might need re-naming--or two articles?
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Also the duff was used in occasions such as weddings, therefore the prohibition on instruments could exclude this?
382:-related articles on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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Maybe we should separate the poetic forms from the musical forms--either in one article or in separate articles.
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
544:. Please re-add the citations, revert the text, or provide sources for your assertions. Thanks and happy edits.
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Much of the "lyrics, translations, song lists" info is unique and not available elsewhere on the net. --
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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with
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Tajweed is about pronouncing the letters and thewords properly, how can it be lumped into music?! --
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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It's not of much importance whether the Islamic scholar think these hadiths are
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or there will have to be some re-editing done in near future, insha'llah.
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To some extent, I think this article should be merged together with the
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Regards and let's have an open and honest discussion about this topic,
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with Islam, but a lot of it doesn't. What is the intent of this page?
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OK, I set up a link in the article, to lyrics. Go at it, guys.
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page for ideas on how to structure a genre article and help us
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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Knowledge:WikiProject Music/Music genres task force
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19:This is the
1140:—Preceding
1102:—Preceding
1081:82.82.47.68
1075:—Preceding
1073:Musa Emre
839:Chat Groups
808:Duckmonster
782:Allah (swt)
770:Duckmonster
482:push to 1.0
476:to see the
285:music genre
148:free images
31:not a forum
1450:Categories
1391:Report bug
1207:MezzoMezzo
1167:MezzoMezzo
915:MezzoMezzo
886:Neutrality
877:MezzoMezzo
289:guidelines
1374:this tool
1367:this tool
1262:Vandalism
1188:Sarabseth
1045:ITAQALLAH
1009:FAISSALOO
867:Maha Odeh
849:Sarabseth
657:, anyone?
538:User:Zora
208:is rated
88:if needed
71:Be polite
21:talk page
1380:Cheers.—
1142:unsigned
1116:contribs
1108:Alpsinan
1104:unsigned
1077:unsigned
1027:Thoughts
981:unsigned
949:unsigned
899:Roy akil
794:joturner
705:Hyacinth
632:Qaseedha
616:Qaseedha
554:Hyacinth
546:Hyacinth
533:Citation
56:get help
29:This is
27:article.
1294:my edit
1268:JulianL
1033:nasheed
725:Tuf-Kat
687:iFaqeer
662:iFaqeer
620:Qawwali
608:Marsiya
514:on the
474:listing
416:on the
210:C-class
154:WP refs
142:scholar
1406:Islam.
1249:Junaos
1013:(talk)
778:(pbuh)
612:Taziya
216:scale.
126:Google
943:sahih
389:Islam
380:Islam
336:Islam
197:This
169:JSTOR
130:books
84:Seek
1438:talk
1415:talk
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788:for
784:not
748:Zora
673:Zora
648:Hamd
640:Noha
628:Naat
624:Hamd
604:Noha
600:Naat
596:Hamd
585:Zora
566:Zora
162:FENS
136:news
73:and
1348:RfC
1318:to
1308:to
636:Ali
506:Top
408:Top
176:TWL
1452::
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