1008:
descriptions of matchups as well. The more serious problem is that it is not clear how the last sentence is intended to relate to the first sentence. I.e., is it describing how networks tend to behave depending on what country they are in, or is it suggesting that networks need not adhere to the convention described in the first sentence? Furthermore, it is not clear to me why various media (e.g., newspapers, magazines, web sites) other than TV networks are not included. Since I cannot be sure what interpretation is intended, I am reluctant to fix it. What I have observed in my own (fairly extensive) experience is that media do consistently follow the convention described in the first sentence. Furthermore, in the U.S. and in a context in which the home team of a matchup is mentioned first, the abbreviation "vs." is used before the name of the visiting team - i.e., it's "at" by default and explicitly "vs." otherwise. In fact, this usage is so uniformly consistent, that I find it surprising that I have been unable to find any 'official' declaration of the convention. If this talk comment lingers for at least a week without dissent, I will modify the paragraph to make it express more clearly what I believe to be true; though I would prefer to see a credible reference.
1038:
cited for the reason was not authoritative - but just more speculation on the subject. As far as "vs." is concerned, my observation is that organized media, when listing matchups, do consistently list the home team first. In fact, I have never seen an exception. There may well be exceptions in the way people talk about matchups among themselves. It would be nice to have an authoritative reference on this subject; but all that we are really offering here so far is an observation of what seems to be very standard practice worldwide. My own observation of practice outside the U.S. is primarily limited to (but fairly extensive within) the U.K. and
Australia. (Regarding my reference to "scoreline" in my previous comment, I did not mean to imply that the 2-word phrase "score line" is not generally understood - just that the single word "scoreline" is not to be found in any dictionaries I tried.)
928:
named Susan got married and had offspring called cat-dogs" it would be unreasonable to expect anyone to find a source saying explicitly "In 1834 there was not a marriage between a dog named Fred and a cat named Susan, and there were no offspring between these two animals". Of course any user would simply remove the vandalism without question, and if we needed sources to take out incorrect information vandals would have a very easy job. Of course the claim in question is not on the same scale in terms of rediculousness, but my general point is that one shouldn't have to have a source to take out incorrect information, it should be the responsibility of the person who wants the information kept to find a source. Hope that makes sense,
166:
22:
642:(unindent)I know you weren't but it seemed as if that was being used as an additional reason, just making my opinion about it known. I have put merge tags on both pages so some folks should, hopefully, come along. I am hoping for outside input, you and I obviously have opinions, and I am sure Tony's matches yours. What we need is people who don't have a personal stake in any of this, i.e. people who haven't worked on the articles.
71:
53:
81:
713:). As this page develops, a section could be titled home advantage, with a one paragraph summary of home advantage and a link to the main article, where the explanation is much more detailed. However, if the page is kept you have to be careful not to expand too much on home advantage, because that would create a greater argument to support a merge.
965:, is that the "home team" has its "primary uniform," whether those be vertical or horizontal stripes of off-setting colors, solid darks or solid lights. If a given team travels to an away match, they may also wear their "primary uniform" if it does not clash with their opponent's "primary uniform." A famous example of this is the all-whites of
796:)--My rationale is as follows. This article is unlikely to grow much beyond this glorified dictionary definition. When one of the four sources is a known Knowledge mirror site and 2 others are dictionary definitions, well, okay. It won't be a big deal if its not merged. It could go either way too, we could merge
538:
The article is currently much more than just a dictionary definition. It describes the differences between the home team and the road team in particular games and describes the differences between the home team and arena and the road team in different sports. It's much more than just a definition.
517:
I respectfully disagree. This article is little more than dictionary definition, 3 of its 4 sources are dictionaries! It should either be merged with another article (I don't care which way it goes-have to fight that out with the folks at the other page) or it should be transwikied to
Wikitionary per
1022:
I would regard a construction like "Chicago vs
Cleveland" as ambiguous, and possibly referring to any matchup of those teams. I could be wrong, but I'm not aware of a convenhtion that the home team goes first in any "vs" declaration. This would argue for using "at" whenever possible (e.g., "Detroit
882:
as soccer. I understand these terms are widely used in
America, and it's probably annoying when some Brit comes along and says you've got to use BrE, the same as Brits get annoyed when Americans try to force AmE (there's been a lot of debate on whether an article should be named gasoline or petrol).
1007:
I am less concerned about the reason for why the convention differs in the U.S. vs. the rest of the world than about the fact that the way the relevant paragraph is written is somewhat confusing. For one thing, the term "scoreline" is not very well defined; and I believe the distinction applies to
927:
colours should be taken out anyway. It's more important to have a source for putting something in an article than for taking something out. For example, if I write a controversial claim on a page I definately need a source to keep it in. But if I wrote on a page "In 1834 a dog named Fred and a cat
897:
Are there sources for any of these claims of the way things usually are (this is a general comment about the jersey colors not specifically at you Alex), obviously there has already been some wrong information and disagreement, sources would be nice, because, basically, our observations constitute
616:
I wasn't using that as my reasoning for keeping it unmerged; I was using that as a consistency between related, yet opposite, topics. But yeah, us two are the only ones in this discussion and we have opposite opinions, so our arguments don't hold much weight unless some other people come into the
1037:
I finally went ahead and modified the paragraph to make the convention more clear and to remove reference to particular media. I also removed the speculation about the reason for the exception in the U.S. The reason is not really all that important in this context. Furthermore, the 'reference'
652:
Yeah, I'm sorry for giving you that impression. Also, note that the article is in its beginning stage; it was created within the past week if memory serves. So not that many people, in my opinion, would be aware that the article even exists. I think it may take some time before a third opinion
992:
I had always imagined this to be a concession to brevity of speech (or writing); It's easier, especially when reading off a long list of matchups, to say "Boston at
Cleveland" than it is to say "Cleveland versus Boston ... at Cleveland." However, if it's really the opposite for the rest of the
708:
After reading this article, the article on home advantage and the article on road (sports), my opinion is that this article shouldn't be merged. Obviously there is a strong connection between home (sports) and home advantage, but the two pages do not contain the same information (as Tony put it:
780:: I believe that the merging of these two articles is not the right course of action; It is not only true that both articles do not have the same information, it is also true that 'home' takes, in the context of sports, a particular enough meaning that justifies the article's existence.--
883:
However, a simple click on those two links shows that wikipedia users have determined that they are the most appropriate titles for the sports on
English wikipedia. In addition, what's your source for football (soccer) home teams wearing
680:. Thus, if it achieves this objective it should have its own article. If you believe this article presents information on home that is not part of the home advantage topic, then you should believe it should have its own page. --
577:) is the user who created these articles, so I think that you should get his opinion on this because, if any improvements could be made to the article to keep it from being merged, he'd be the one to best provide them.
543:, are too different to be merged to another article. Because of the differences between the road team and venue and the home team and venue, those two should remain separate, and this article shouldn't be merged into
939:
No need to have a source to take out incorrect information, but to correct it, yes, you need a source. Perhaps you misunderstood my comment. None of that information is cited in the current article, it needs to be.
193:
539:
If the only issue is the fact tht three of four sources are dictionary definitions, then that can easily be improved simply by getting better sources. But I think that this article, complimented with
189:
987:
360:
902:
and someone unfamiliar with the topic of sports enough to not know the colors of jerseys typical for home and road teams needs to be able to verify this information.
201:
672:
KSY, thanks for defending me. I didn't notice the debate. The purpose of this article is to present encyclopedic information about being the home team other than
294:
919:
than the away kit", and to be honest I can't see a reason why anyone would make such a statement, for there is no reason to believe the home kit would be
247:
974:
1032:
1002:
197:
464:
See what I was hoping is we could just do a merge nice and quiet like, since this is so plainly obvious. I will propose it on each page in a bit.
439:
13:08, 25 August 2007 (UTC) If you don't agree that needs a citation that's cool, no big deal. But this article is a duplication of content from
1047:
1017:
887:
colours? Not true in my experience. If you agree these changes need to be made I'll go ahead and make them, but I'll wait for your input.
847:
459:
784:
598:
I will keep disagreeing, and probably won't agree with you. We should wait for other input from those not associated with the article.
804:
611:
468:
341:
the page of sport in each country from corresponding article in other language
Knowledge to English Knowledge which was marked in red.
262:* Fix project template and/or "to do list" Current version causes tables of content to be hidden unless/until reader chooses "show."
953:
944:
932:
915:
than the home kits, I can't find a source that specifically says anything along the lines of "In football the home kit is often not
906:
816:
666:
630:
602:
522:
510:
770:
748:
736:
481:. Both articles are related, but are two separate topics. If anything needs to be merged, it would make more sense to merge
812:
because this article does contain information not included in home advantage, and that is appropriately placed on this page.
1066:
1061:
760:
Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
857:
Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
185:
834:
730:
Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
690:
574:
426:
403:
Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
322:
267:
103:
257:
838:
694:
430:
144:
102:-related topics on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
842:
698:
434:
154:
149:
139:
703:
447:
982:
961:
From what I understand of football (soccer) around the world, and even in the United States with a team like
646:
891:
717:
590:
287:
208:
178:
94:
58:
33:
253:
1023:
at Green Bay", reserving the "vs" for neutral-site matches (e.g., "Detroit vs Green Bay at
Milwaukee").
973:. Regardless of where these arch rivals play their matches, both teams wear their "primary uniform." --
870:
regarding the
British term "away". This article too, could do with being made applicable to American
993:
world, then it probably is due to baseball setting the precedent for coverage of the other sports.
766:
I put this request in because of the lack of non-contributor perspective on the merger discussion.
473:
Sorry, I didn't know that anybody responded. I wasn't ignoring you. Anyway, if anything I think
21:
866:
Just in case you're not already watching the article, please can you take a look at my post on
830:
686:
568:
422:
309:
39:
978:
231:
8:
861:
337:
273:
923:
than the away kit. Personally I think the sentence saying that football home teams wear
867:
660:
624:
584:
504:
389:
345:
711:
this article presents information on home that is not part of the home advantage topic
1028:
998:
879:
875:
825:
681:
564:
417:
244:(History section needs sources and accurate information - very vague at the moment.)
223:
911:
Although I could give a very large number of examples where the away kits have been
781:
1043:
1013:
941:
903:
801:
767:
745:
643:
608:
599:
519:
465:
456:
444:
316:
214:
newly added and existing articles, maybe nominate some good B-class articles for
797:
673:
544:
482:
474:
455:
Okay, you can ignore my comment, which is really rude, or I can just AfD this.
440:
302:
279:
1055:
950:
929:
888:
813:
714:
677:
655:
619:
579:
540:
499:
494:
490:
486:
478:
413:
350:
86:
949:
Yes I agree with you, most of the information in the article needs sources.
1024:
994:
970:
899:
241:
215:
607:
And I also disagree that this should stay for consistancy of titles sake.
966:
165:
443:. Possible merger? As this appears to be little more than a definition.
1039:
1009:
962:
489:
instead of vice-versa because that would remove the significance of
260:
section is incorrect and unsourced. Reliable data is required.
477:
should be merged here because of the other side of the article,
276:(crucial article explaining the salaried undertaking of sports)
218:; independently assess some as A-class, regardless of GA status.
70:
52:
99:
800:
here, which might actually make the most sense of anything.
724:
The above discussion is a concluded promotion discussion.
397:
The following discussion is a concluded merger discussion.
874:
British sports. For example, in the article you refer to
824:
as page creator my opinion should be easy to interpret.--
295:
Category:Knowledge requested images of sports and games
676:, which is but a small part of the encyclopedic topic
98:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
76:
988:
Why the home team is listed last (or rather, later)
412:(1 merge, 3 not merge) debate has extended to the
248:Category:American college sports infobox templates
1053:
416:below further comment should be placed there.--
194:Requested articles (Association football women)
19:
563:talking about these differences. Anywho,
202:Requested articles (Estonian sportspeople)
173:Here are some tasks awaiting attention:
190:Requested articles (Association football)
617:discussion, I agree with you on that.
1054:
969:and the vertical blaugrana stripes of
234:(this should-be-major article is in a
843:tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM
699:tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM
435:tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM
756:The following discussion is closed.
92:This article is within the scope of
15:
353:) sports to be part of this project
250:to use same font size and spacing.
38:It is of interest to the following
13:
794:possibly bring home advantage here
323:List of world sports championships
14:
1078:
198:Requested articles (Motor sports)
853:The discussion above is closed.
555:; it seems unreasonable to have
164:
79:
69:
51:
20:
744:Still no consensus to merge. --
737:Request for Comment: Merger RfC
1048:00:50, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
983:04:41, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
1:
408:The result of the debate was
106:and see a list of open tasks.
112:Knowledge:WikiProject Sports
7:
1067:WikiProject Sports articles
1062:Start-Class sports articles
954:13:08, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
945:12:30, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
933:11:43, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
907:11:01, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
892:13:05, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
848:13:10, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
817:11:48, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
805:10:56, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
785:19:45, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
771:01:12, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
718:08:32, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
704:15:55, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
667:19:58, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
647:19:54, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
631:19:47, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
612:19:41, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
603:19:40, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
591:19:25, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
523:19:18, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
518:WP:NOT being a dictionary.
511:18:58, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
469:18:54, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
460:18:50, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
448:23:39, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
254:Sport in the United Kingdom
186:Requested articles (Sports)
115:Template:WikiProject Sports
10:
1083:
1003:18:34, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
1033:22:16, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
1018:18:43, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
749:19:38, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
126:
64:
46:
855:Please do not modify it.
758:Please do not modify it.
727:Please do not modify it.
400:Please do not modify it.
282:(currently a sub-stub)
28:This article is rated
310:Category:Sports stubs
361:requests for comment
349:: Gather all (major/
308:work on articles in
293:for pages listed in
232:Sport governing body
497:to compliment it.
297:and sub-categories.
274:Professional sports
868:Talk:Road (sports)
759:
95:WikiProject Sports
34:content assessment
900:original research
878:as football, and
876:American football
846:
757:
702:
665:
629:
589:
509:
438:
387:
386:
383:
382:
379:
378:
375:
374:
371:
370:
1074:
828:
729:
684:
663:
659:
627:
623:
587:
583:
507:
503:
420:
402:
179:Article requests
168:
161:
160:
128:
127:
120:
119:
116:
113:
110:
89:
84:
83:
82:
73:
66:
65:
55:
48:
47:
31:
25:
24:
16:
1082:
1081:
1077:
1076:
1075:
1073:
1072:
1071:
1052:
1051:
990:
864:
859:
858:
762:
753:
752:
751:
739:
734:
725:
661:
625:
585:
547:because of how
505:
493:if there isn't
398:
392:
367:
159:
118:sports articles
117:
114:
111:
108:
107:
85:
80:
78:
32:on Knowledge's
29:
12:
11:
5:
1080:
1070:
1069:
1064:
989:
986:
959:
958:
957:
956:
937:
936:
935:
863:
860:
852:
851:
850:
819:
807:
798:Home advantage
787:
774:
773:
763:
754:
743:
742:
741:
740:
738:
735:
733:
732:
674:home advantage
670:
669:
640:
639:
638:
637:
636:
635:
634:
633:
561:Home advantage
545:home advantage
536:
535:
534:
533:
532:
531:
530:
529:
528:
527:
526:
525:
483:home advantage
475:home advantage
441:Home advantage
406:
405:
393:
391:
388:
385:
384:
381:
380:
377:
376:
373:
372:
369:
368:
366:
365:
364:
363:
354:
342:
333:
325:
312:
298:
283:
280:Sport industry
277:
263:
261:
251:
246:* Standardize
245:
239:
229:
219:
204:
200:
196:
192:
188:
184:
172:
170:
169:
158:
157:
152:
147:
142:
136:
133:
132:
124:
123:
121:
104:the discussion
91:
90:
74:
62:
61:
56:
44:
43:
37:
26:
9:
6:
4:
3:
2:
1079:
1068:
1065:
1063:
1060:
1059:
1057:
1050:
1049:
1045:
1041:
1035:
1034:
1030:
1026:
1020:
1019:
1015:
1011:
1005:
1004:
1000:
996:
985:
984:
980:
976:
972:
968:
964:
955:
952:
948:
947:
946:
943:
938:
934:
931:
926:
922:
918:
914:
910:
909:
908:
905:
901:
896:
895:
894:
893:
890:
886:
881:
877:
873:
869:
856:
849:
844:
840:
836:
832:
827:
823:
820:
818:
815:
811:
808:
806:
803:
799:
795:
791:
788:
786:
783:
782:T.S.Boncompte
779:
776:
775:
772:
769:
765:
764:
761:
750:
747:
731:
728:
722:
721:
720:
719:
716:
712:
706:
705:
700:
696:
692:
688:
683:
679:
678:home (sports)
675:
668:
664:
658:
657:
651:
650:
649:
648:
645:
632:
628:
622:
621:
615:
614:
613:
610:
606:
605:
604:
601:
597:
596:
595:
594:
593:
592:
588:
582:
581:
576:
573:
570:
566:
562:
558:
557:Road (sports)
554:
550:
546:
542:
541:road (sports)
524:
521:
516:
515:
514:
513:
512:
508:
502:
501:
496:
495:home (sports)
492:
491:road (sports)
488:
487:home (sports)
484:
480:
479:road (sports)
476:
472:
471:
470:
467:
463:
462:
461:
458:
454:
453:
452:
451:
450:
449:
446:
442:
436:
432:
428:
424:
419:
415:
411:
404:
401:
395:
394:
362:
358:
355:
352:
348:
347:
343:
340:
339:
335:
334:
332:
330:
326:
324:
321:
319:
318:
313:
311:
307:
305:
304:
299:
296:
292:
290:
289:
284:
281:
275:
272:
270:
269:
264:
259:
255:
249:
243:
237:
233:
228:
226:
225:
220:
217:
213:
211:
210:
205:
203:
199:
195:
191:
187:
183:
181:
180:
175:
174:
171:
167:
163:
162:
156:
153:
151:
148:
146:
143:
141:
138:
137:
135:
134:
130:
129:
125:
122:
105:
101:
97:
96:
88:
87:Sports portal
77:
75:
72:
68:
67:
63:
60:
57:
54:
50:
49:
45:
41:
35:
27:
23:
18:
17:
1036:
1021:
1006:
991:
971:FC Barcelona
960:
924:
920:
916:
912:
884:
871:
865:
854:
826:TonyTheTiger
821:
809:
793:
789:
777:
755:
726:
723:
710:
707:
682:TonyTheTiger
671:
654:
641:
618:
578:
571:
565:TonyTheTiger
560:
556:
552:
551:compliments
548:
537:
498:
418:TonyTheTiger
409:
407:
399:
396:
356:
344:
336:
328:
327:
315:
314:
301:
300:
286:
285:
266:
265:
242:Field hockey
235:
222:
221:
207:
206:
177:
176:
93:
40:WikiProjects
967:Real Madrid
862:British use
810:Don't merge
131:To-do list:
30:Start-class
1056:Categories
975:Beach blvd
942:IvoShandor
904:IvoShandor
802:IvoShandor
768:IvoShandor
746:kelapstick
644:IvoShandor
609:IvoShandor
600:IvoShandor
520:IvoShandor
466:IvoShandor
457:IvoShandor
445:IvoShandor
390:Regardless
346:Categorize
258:Popularity
963:LA Galaxy
778:Not Merge
410:Not Merge
359:: answer
338:Translate
951:Alex9788
930:Alex9788
889:Alex9788
880:football
814:Alex9788
715:Alex9788
656:Ksy92003
653:comes.
620:Ksy92003
580:Ksy92003
575:contribs
500:Ksy92003
236:shameful
1025:WHPratt
995:WHPratt
925:lighter
921:lighter
917:lighter
913:lighter
885:lighter
822:Abstain
351:olympic
238:state)
224:Cleanup
145:history
662:(talk)
626:(talk)
586:(talk)
506:(talk)
414:WP:RFC
317:Update
268:Expand
256:- the
209:Assess
109:Sports
59:Sports
36:scale.
1040:DrHow
1010:DrHow
790:Merge
329:Other
303:Stubs
288:Photo
155:purge
150:watch
100:sport
1044:talk
1029:talk
1014:talk
999:talk
979:talk
569:talk
559:and
553:Road
549:Home
357:RfCs
140:edit
872:and
839:bio
695:bio
485:to
431:bio
1058::
1046:)
1031:)
1016:)
1001:)
981:)
845:)
701:)
437:)
278:*
252:*
240:*
230:*
216:GA
1042:(
1027:(
1012:(
997:(
977:(
841:/
837:/
835:c
833:/
831:t
829:(
792:(
697:/
693:/
691:c
689:/
687:t
685:(
572:·
567:(
433:/
429:/
427:c
425:/
423:t
421:(
331::
320::
306::
291::
271::
227::
212::
182::
42::
Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License. Additional terms may apply.
