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Talk:Voice (grammar)

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categories of nouns. For such people, the Knowledge entries as they are now, are particularly unhelpful. The discussion is, of course, ideologically related to the discussion that led to the split of "noun classes" from "gender" relating to nouns, which I likewise feel to be sadly unhelpful. Actually, I even feel that it might be better if terms were used more clearly, conformly and unambiguously throughout literature; however, that's not the case, so I'd still be in favour of even the inclusion of a disambiguation entry of "gender" to direct here. I'm not prepared to take up any time-consuming debate over the issue at the moment, however, so I won't make any changes to the main pages, at least for now, but offer the above quote only as support for anybody who might wish to pursue such improvements.
892:, etc.), with a summary replacing it here. I'm not sure that all of it needs to be summarised either – I don't know anything about Chinese, but the section based on Yip et al. for example, seems less about passive voice proper and more about disparate grammatical devices that achieve the same pragmatic function as does the actual passive in languages like English. For the time being, of course I don't see anything wrong with having that content here. Also, that's not just about the newly added Chinese and Japanese sections: the older section "Dynamic and static passive" contains rows of examples for various European languages, which we could very easily do without. – 611:
online forum that discusses grammar with language-learners, many of whom are not familiar with the standard terminology. Sometimes I give them a link to Knowledge to get an understanding of a basic term that they may not know. But if the article on voice is telling these beginners that voice is also called gender—and by the way, my concern has nothing to do with sexual politics—I can't in good conscience refer them to an article with such unnecessary complication. The Knowledge guidelines say "Be bold", so, having given my rationale, I will do so and delete "gender". If you still feel that it is important, please consider putting "gender" in a footnote.
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I described some concerns I had with the tree diagram for "(8) The window broke from the pressure/by itself." in the. Wanted to make sure I also brought them up here. In addition to what was said there, I want to note that the text given in (8) does not match the linearization in the tree, since (8)
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that you can ahead first and build up your content on this page. We can think about moving it to other pages in a next step after your additions have been assessed by your instructor. Both of us of course cannot speak for other editors, who might see things differently. Though it's spilled milk now,
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This comment was inside the article, but IMHO that's a wrong place. If it's wrong, it shouldn't be inside the article. If it's doubtful, then it should be discussed here and not in the article. If it isn't wrong and if all doubts are cleared or if there are sources so one can ignore the doubts, then
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OK, I yield. I've been looking through several books of grammar, and English language ones very consistently use the term "voice". Other languages (notably old Latin grammars of ancient Rome), often use the term "genus" which is etymologically the origin of the English "gender", but just as with the
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Hi, we are three undergraduate linguistics/speech science students working on our final project which is on the syntax of voice in Japanese, Mandarin and English. The project was to edit and add information to a wiki page regarding a specific syntactic topic. We were instructed by our professor to
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I, like others, was taken aback by this use of "gender" in the article on voice. Think of the poor naive reader who comes to the encyclopedia to get an introduction (!) to the concept of grammatical voice. This is probably not a person who will soon be reading "older literature". I take part in an
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I don't know if one example, even from a prominent source in the academical source in the linguistic world, merits a reinsertion. My feeling is that it should be, because people may come across this use and try to look it up on Knowledge, only to be told that the word "gender" has to do ONLY with
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I admit that my previous example wasn't very good. However, now rereading parts of Robert Beekes: "Comparative Indo-European Linguistics", I have come across a book where "gender" is clearly used as a term for "voice". See for example the very beginning of chapter 18: "The Verb", 18.1: "General",
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I added both "gender" and "diathesis" orginially. I've just re-inserted "gender". It's a common enough expression in older literature. The reason that it rubs some people against the furs is probably due to sexual politics of the past few decades. However, "gender" (genus) didn't originally mean
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So according to their definition, diathesis is the mapping (e.g. passive: patient → subject), while voice is the morphologically marked category (e.g. English passive voice expressed by 'to be' + past participle). In most languages, these are just two facets on the same thing (as in the case of
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You have added lots of valuable material about voice in Mandarin and Japanese which by now already quite much dominates the article. This article is about grammatical voice as a general concept, and not a place for amassaing data about voice from various languages of the world. Examples from
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From the first paragraph: "the voice (also called gender or diathesis) of a verb..." Gender of a verb? I've never heard that term; is there a citation? (I've also never heard of diathesis in this context, but I'm less ready to call that into question--still, a citation would be nice.)
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Britannica quote (which I admit to having added rather hastily), that's neither here nor there in this context. English language grammars, I admit, very consistently use the term "voice". Feel free to remove the term "diathesis" as well, if you like, since it's very Greek-oriented.
863:. However, we are graded on the content present on this specific Knowledge page so we would appreciate if these sections could be kept for a little longer just until our project has been marked and then we would be happy to edit and transfer the info over to the other pages. 366:
From the on-line version of ENCYCLOPEDIA BRITANNICA: "in language, a phenomenon in which the words of a certain part of speech, usually nouns, require the agreement, or concord, through grammatical marking (or inflection), of various other words related to them in a
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In practice, however, linguists usually treat diathesis and voice as synonymous. So you will find that the above-mentioned languages are described as having "voice without morphological voice marking", instead of "diathesis without voice marking".
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I'm delighted to see such detailed exposition of a grammatical topic! However, I do agree with Austronesier that this level of detail belongs to the individual grammar articles about each language (and the content can even be plausibly split into
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Great, hope you got an A :) Come to think of it, as long as we don't have really a good idea about how to distribute the detailed language-specific material to other existing/new articles, we can just leave the page as it is for the time being.
333:"sex" in Latin. It meant something broad like "type". There's a very frequent confusion about this among amateur linguistics who take "gender" to have something to do with modern sex roles. It doesn't. At least, it didn't originally. 1240:"case", which can refer to a syntactic functional category and at the same time to its morphological realization). In a handful of languages, however, you can express diathesis without any morphological marking on the verb (e.g. in 1019:
Thanks for letting us know! Now that we are finished with the assignment we won't be checking this account very often so feel free to delete, edit or change whatever you see fit. Thanks again for your patience and understanding!
1286:) which gives the impression of a tautonymy. And the lack of a clarification (as a language-specific?) which might be helpful to students of e.g. Greek for example, for an exercise of 'grammatical recognition' for a verb like 403:
genus actīvum (active). laudo I praise. genus medĭum (middle). lāvor = lavo me I wash, I wash myself. genus passīvum (passive). laudor I am praised (by somebody else). genus neutrum (neutral). dormio I sleep. "
1252:); diathesis is only visible from the accompanying patterns of person-agreement and the case-marking of noun phrases. So in Zúñiga & Kittilä's terms, these languages have diathesis without corresponding voice marking. 855:
use this wiki page to edit and add our info to. We apologize for adding too much detail and taking away from the general concept. We agree that our info on Mandarin and Japanese voice would be better suited to the pages
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I took Latin many years ago and vaguely recall that "to be born" is not active or passive voice, but something else. I was hoping to find something on this subject in this article, but alas, do not. Can anyone help?
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Fixed. I could not find a source for middle voice, but that is cited in its own section. A sentence like "This is strange" is called an "anticipatory construction," evidently not in Knowledge but cited in Crews,
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Over the next few weeks, we'll be re-organizing the content & structure of this article to regularize the presentation of the datasets in according with the norms of how to format natural language data.
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This distinction is available in English through the use of the "be-passive" and the "got-passive", though this is not accepted by all speakers, and is considered colloquial or substandard in some circles:
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Your cite satisfies the Knowledge criteria, but the article's assertion, as attributed to Crews, doesn't satisfy me. In my lexicon, "This is strange" constitutes neither active voice nor passive voice but
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Okay, this doesn't conclusively prove my point, but notice the expression "usually nouns". In order to get more citations, I'll have to get up from the computer and pull down some books from the shelves.
821:, where they actually belong. I'd strongly advice to add the material in those articles (and maybe in a later step create specialized sub-articles), and to trim it here to a reasonable minimum. 282: 1181:)= the sense of what I say). It is indeed very confusing that the terms 'active', 'passive' are used for both voice and diathesis (=a meaning of inflectional forms). I see that 1041:
There's no citation for the article's following assertion: "When the subject is the agent or doer of the action, the verb is in the active voice." The assertion qualifies as an
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individual languages are certainly fine and helpful as long they serve to illustrate the gerenal concept. But all the details which you have added here are not even found in
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Hi, we have received our grade and we were wondering how we should go about removing or transferring the content to other pages. Any insight would be appreciated. Thanks!
1290:(= I work) by stating: 'verb. voice:passive. diathesis:active (or: voice:passive with active sense). tense:present. mood:indicative 1st person singular.' Thank you again. 1114: 1139: 938:
Thank you for your understanding. We will let you know as soon as we receive our grade, which will most likely be sometime early in the new year. Happy Holidays! –
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Voice has nothing to do with agreement, so the Britannica example doesn't actually support your assertion. The Latin example only supports the use of the term
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I have no idea, where is the middle voice in Bengali. If anyone has any information about it, please give an example and source from which it has been taken.
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is a typological set of forms (by vox = how you say it), which usually -but not always- corresponds to a homonymous sense (diathesis, genus / genera verbi (
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for you immediate and detailed response. I am neither a linguist, nor a wikipedian. I was just worried by the very first line's expression (
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This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available
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is defined here as a grammatical category whose values correspond to particular diatheses marked on the form of predicates.
1134:? I think another example should be drawn up to illustrate, because as is, this sentence misinforms a careful reader. anon: 1005: 842: 1218:(Zúñiga & Kittilä, 2019) can bring light to this question. Zúñiga & Kittilä use the following definitions (p. 4): 1213: 1061: 1135: 1299: 1265: 1126:
I can't access the source of this 'adapted' tree, Alexiadou & Doron 2011. Do those authors actually construe the PP
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for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists.
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
786: 179: 197: 1261: 1001: 922: 838: 760: 616: 444: 353: 701:. - static passive - The store is open. Someone must have done it, but now it's just open. 1295: 1202: 914: 184: 50: 1241: 1148: 778: 655:"to be born" is English -- are you looking for genus neutrum, deponens or commune, or for 411: 8: 1185:
uses a distinction 'transitive', 'intransitive', but I cannot find the word 'diathesis'.
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where 6.φωνές (voices) are discussed completely separately from 1.διαθέσεις (diatheses).
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refers to any specific mapping of semantic roles (SRs) onto grammatical roles (GRs).
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While all native Greek Grammars make a distinction of φωνή - διάθεσις/διάθεση, e.g.
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Thank you for the more detailed background information, I for my part agree with
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tenses: present (with imperfect); aorist; perfect (perhaps with pluperfect)
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In this way the following categories were long ago inferred for PIE:
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as a complement of the agent-theta-role-bearing PP complement of V
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moods: indicative, injunctive, subjunctive, optative, imperative
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Can you point to some sources that use gender to mean voice?
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to be on safe side, many class assignments make use of the
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Sorry that I cannot provide bibliography in English for
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http://www.webtopos.gr/eng/languages/latin/verb.web.htm
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by way of Old French, is not a direct translation). —
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Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
1165:"?? At least for Latin and Ancient Greek, vox, φωνή 211: 112:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of 90: 1120:gives the (somewhat ambiguous) "from the pressure 1308: 719:. - adjective - The store is open. 695:. - adjective - The store is open. 255:This page has archives. Sections older than 680:it should be re-inserted into the article. 770:Re-organization of content & structure 171: 1115:Issue with tree diagram in "Middle voice" 397:"genĕra verbi (Aspects gre: Διαθέσεις) 4. 295:Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment 178:Text and/or other creative content from 1098:entails. (In my lexicon, it's termed a 293:Above undated message substituted from 265:when more than 10 sections are present. 30: 14: 1309: 439:, a construction unrelated to voice. 467:with that meaning in Latin (English 435:Britannica clearly is talking about 167: 106:This article is within the scope of 26: 1322:Mid-importance Linguistics articles 1189:@current school textbook for Anc.Gr 49:It is of interest to the following 24: 25: 1338: 471:, while ultimately deriving from 259:may be automatically archived by 126:Knowledge:WikiProject Linguistics 1327:WikiProject Linguistics articles 276: 216: 129:Template:WikiProject Linguistics 93: 83: 62: 31: 1171:wikt:el:Appendix:Glossary#voice 883:) 6:04, 18 December 2020 (PST) 146:This article has been rated as 984:) 4.35, 14 January 2021 (UTC) 13: 1: 1300:19:40, 25 February 2024 (UTC) 1266:18:44, 25 February 2024 (UTC) 1207:16:14, 25 February 2024 (UTC) 1144:18:45, 23 December 2021 (UTC) 1028:) 9:13, 16 January 2021 (UTC) 948:10:59, 21 December 2020 (UTC) 927:20:34, 19 December 2020 (UTC) 897:17:14, 19 December 2020 (UTC) 843:12:24, 18 December 2020 (UTC) 328:19:20, 26 February 2008 (UTC) 120:and see a list of open tasks. 1317:C-Class Linguistics articles 1176: 1107:00:48, 26 January 2021 (UTC) 1078:18:50, 25 January 2021 (UTC) 1062:08:40, 25 January 2021 (UTC) 1006:19:50, 15 January 2021 (UTC) 890:Grammatical voice in Chinese 795:23:45, 21 October 2020 (UTC) 307:12:32, 17 January 2022 (UTC) 7: 10: 1343: 1183:Smyth#Anc.Gr.Grammar#voice 621:21:25, 19 March 2018 (UTC) 590:12:54, 30 March 2010 (UTC) 484:06:13, 24 April 2009 (UTC) 449:04:08, 24 April 2009 (UTC) 423:04:07, 24 April 2009 (UTC) 387:03:12, 24 April 2009 (UTC) 358:02:33, 24 April 2009 (UTC) 343:02:33, 24 April 2009 (UTC) 152:project's importance scale 1096:anticipatory construction 746:10:01, 15 July 2015 (UTC) 669:09:03, 15 July 2015 (UTC) 650:05:10, 17 June 2010 (UTC) 188:was copied or moved into 145: 78: 57: 765:11:15, 1 June 2020 (UTC) 751:Middle Voice in Bengali? 705:De winkel wordt geopend 530:18.1.1: "Introduction": 511:19:02, 9 May 2009 (UTC) 109:WikiProject Linguistics 734: 553:gender: active, middle 262:Lowercase sigmabot III 39:This article is rated 18:Talk:Grammatical voice 1163:voice (aka diathesis) 729:The store gets opened 682: 285:. Student editor(s): 1284:voice, aka diathesis 801:Chinese and Japanese 699:De winkel is geopend 196:. The former page's 132:Linguistics articles 1104:Kent Dominic·(talk) 1059:Kent Dominic·(talk) 1037:Unsourced assertion 723:The store is opened 202:provide attribution 1100:vicaritive pronoun 437:grammatical gender 283:on the course page 101:Linguistics portal 45:content assessment 1288:wikt:el:εργάζομαι 1231:Grammatical voice 1215:Grammatical Voice 1195:wikt:en:diathesis 1192: 1180: 1149:Voice - Diathesis 1133: 1129: 1124:by itself" chain. 797: 781:comment added by 717:The store is open 693:De winkel is open 269: 268: 208: 207: 166: 165: 162: 161: 158: 157: 16:(Redirected from 1334: 1281: 1232: 1224: 1186: 1174: 1160: 1153:attn:admin and 1131: 1127: 1088: 1018: 994: 975: 963: 937: 907: 874: 857:Mandarin grammar 853: 833:Your thoughts? – 832: 815:Mandarin grammar 811: 776: 309: 280: 264: 248: 220: 212: 187: 175: 174: 168: 134: 133: 130: 127: 124: 103: 98: 97: 87: 80: 79: 74: 66: 59: 58: 42: 36: 35: 27: 21: 1342: 1341: 1337: 1336: 1335: 1333: 1332: 1331: 1307: 1306: 1275: 1230: 1222: 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233: 229: 228: 224: 219: 214: 213: 210: 203: 199: 195: 191: 190:Passive voice 186: 181: 177: 170: 169: 153: 149: 143: 140: 139: 136: 119: 115: 111: 110: 102: 96: 91: 89: 86: 82: 81: 77: 71: 68: 65: 61: 60: 56: 52: 46: 38: 34: 29: 28: 19: 1283: 1278:Austronesier 1274:Thank you M 1258:Austronesier 1229: 1221: 1214: 1162: 1152: 1121: 1118: 1099: 1091: 1055:active voice 1054: 1050: 1046: 1040: 1015:Austronesier 998:Austronesier 968:Megaman en m 960:Austronesier 956: 934:Austronesier 919:Austronesier 867:Megaman en m 850:Austronesier 846: 835:Austronesier 825:Megaman en m 804: 777:— Preceding 773: 757:Ashutosh Jha 754: 738:84.161.8.150 735: 728: 722: 716: 710: 704: 698: 692: 683: 678: 661:84.161.8.150 638: 635:"To be born" 613:Kotabatubara 472: 468: 464: 441:John M Baker 350:John M Baker 331: 316: 291: 275: 256: 230: 222: 209: 180:this version 147: 107: 51:WikiProjects 1292:Sarri.greek 1242:Tukang Besi 1199:Sarri.greek 783:RM Dechaine 562:(end quote) 123:Linguistics 114:linguistics 70:Linguistics 1311:Categories 1043:ipse dixit 367:sentence." 287:Albahi1988 1246:Manggarai 1223:Diathesis 1085:Anita5192 1070:Anita5192 915:"sandbox" 194:this edit 1177:#Gender? 1022:300voice 991:300voice 978:300voice 940:300voice 904:300voice 877:300voice 808:300voice 791:contribs 779:unsigned 547:(quote:) 299:PrimeBOT 257:365 days 223:Archives 1157:Erutuon 1068:p.438.— 1047:subject 972:Uanfala 910:Uanfala 871:Uanfala 829:Uanfala 686:Shinobu 675:Comment 582:Bantaar 503:Bantaar 415:Bantaar 379:Bantaar 335:Bantaar 320:Mcswell 313:Gender? 198:history 150:on the 41:C-class 1250:Palu'e 1051:status 657:supine 477:Gwalla 469:gender 47:scale. 1132:broke 642:JKeck 473:genus 192:with 1296:talk 1262:talk 1203:talk 1140:talk 1074:talk 1026:talk 1002:talk 982:talk 970:and 944:talk 923:talk 881:talk 869:and 859:and 839:talk 827:and 817:and 787:talk 761:talk 742:talk 665:talk 646:talk 617:talk 586:talk 507:talk 481:Talk 445:talk 419:talk 383:talk 354:talk 339:talk 324:talk 303:talk 1248:or 1175:cf. 684:I, 659:? - 297:by 182:of 142:Mid 1313:: 1298:) 1264:) 1244:, 1205:) 1169:, 1142:) 1128:by 1076:) 1004:) 946:) 925:) 841:) 793:) 789:• 763:) 744:) 736:- 667:) 648:) 619:) 588:) 509:) 479:| 447:) 421:) 385:) 356:) 341:) 326:) 305:) 289:. 1294:( 1280:: 1276:@ 1260:( 1256:– 1201:( 1159:: 1155:@ 1138:( 1122:/ 1087:: 1083:@ 1072:( 1024:( 1020:– 1017:: 1013:@ 1000:( 996:– 993:: 989:@ 980:( 976:– 974:: 966:@ 962:: 958:@ 942:( 936:: 932:@ 921:( 906:: 902:@ 879:( 875:– 873:: 865:@ 852:: 848:@ 837:( 831:: 823:@ 810:: 806:@ 785:( 759:( 740:( 663:( 644:( 615:( 584:( 505:( 443:( 417:( 410:- 381:( 352:( 337:( 322:( 301:( 232:1 154:. 53:: 20:)

Index

Talk:Grammatical voice

content assessment
WikiProjects
WikiProject icon
Linguistics
WikiProject icon
icon
Linguistics portal
WikiProject Linguistics
linguistics
the discussion
Mid
project's importance scale
this version
Voice (grammar)
Passive voice
this edit
history
provide attribution

1
Lowercase sigmabot III

on the course page
Albahi1988
Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment
PrimeBOT
talk
12:32, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

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