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categories of nouns. For such people, the
Knowledge entries as they are now, are particularly unhelpful. The discussion is, of course, ideologically related to the discussion that led to the split of "noun classes" from "gender" relating to nouns, which I likewise feel to be sadly unhelpful. Actually, I even feel that it might be better if terms were used more clearly, conformly and unambiguously throughout literature; however, that's not the case, so I'd still be in favour of even the inclusion of a disambiguation entry of "gender" to direct here. I'm not prepared to take up any time-consuming debate over the issue at the moment, however, so I won't make any changes to the main pages, at least for now, but offer the above quote only as support for anybody who might wish to pursue such improvements.
892:, etc.), with a summary replacing it here. I'm not sure that all of it needs to be summarised either – I don't know anything about Chinese, but the section based on Yip et al. for example, seems less about passive voice proper and more about disparate grammatical devices that achieve the same pragmatic function as does the actual passive in languages like English. For the time being, of course I don't see anything wrong with having that content here. Also, that's not just about the newly added Chinese and Japanese sections: the older section "Dynamic and static passive" contains rows of examples for various European languages, which we could very easily do without. –
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online forum that discusses grammar with language-learners, many of whom are not familiar with the standard terminology. Sometimes I give them a link to
Knowledge to get an understanding of a basic term that they may not know. But if the article on voice is telling these beginners that voice is also called gender—and by the way, my concern has nothing to do with sexual politics—I can't in good conscience refer them to an article with such unnecessary complication. The Knowledge guidelines say "Be bold", so, having given my rationale, I will do so and delete "gender". If you still feel that it is important, please consider putting "gender" in a footnote.
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I described some concerns I had with the tree diagram for "(8) The window broke from the pressure/by itself." in the. Wanted to make sure I also brought them up here. In addition to what was said there, I want to note that the text given in (8) does not match the linearization in the tree, since (8)
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that you can ahead first and build up your content on this page. We can think about moving it to other pages in a next step after your additions have been assessed by your instructor. Both of us of course cannot speak for other editors, who might see things differently. Though it's spilled milk now,
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This comment was inside the article, but IMHO that's a wrong place. If it's wrong, it shouldn't be inside the article. If it's doubtful, then it should be discussed here and not in the article. If it isn't wrong and if all doubts are cleared or if there are sources so one can ignore the doubts, then
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OK, I yield. I've been looking through several books of grammar, and
English language ones very consistently use the term "voice". Other languages (notably old Latin grammars of ancient Rome), often use the term "genus" which is etymologically the origin of the English "gender", but just as with the
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Hi, we are three undergraduate linguistics/speech science students working on our final project which is on the syntax of voice in
Japanese, Mandarin and English. The project was to edit and add information to a wiki page regarding a specific syntactic topic. We were instructed by our professor to
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I, like others, was taken aback by this use of "gender" in the article on voice. Think of the poor naive reader who comes to the encyclopedia to get an introduction (!) to the concept of grammatical voice. This is probably not a person who will soon be reading "older literature". I take part in an
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I don't know if one example, even from a prominent source in the academical source in the linguistic world, merits a reinsertion. My feeling is that it should be, because people may come across this use and try to look it up on
Knowledge, only to be told that the word "gender" has to do ONLY with
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I admit that my previous example wasn't very good. However, now rereading parts of Robert Beekes: "Comparative Indo-European
Linguistics", I have come across a book where "gender" is clearly used as a term for "voice". See for example the very beginning of chapter 18: "The Verb", 18.1: "General",
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I added both "gender" and "diathesis" orginially. I've just re-inserted "gender". It's a common enough expression in older literature. The reason that it rubs some people against the furs is probably due to sexual politics of the past few decades. However, "gender" (genus) didn't originally mean
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So according to their definition, diathesis is the mapping (e.g. passive: patient → subject), while voice is the morphologically marked category (e.g. English passive voice expressed by 'to be' + past participle). In most languages, these are just two facets on the same thing (as in the case of
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You have added lots of valuable material about voice in
Mandarin and Japanese which by now already quite much dominates the article. This article is about grammatical voice as a general concept, and not a place for amassaing data about voice from various languages of the world. Examples from
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From the first paragraph: "the voice (also called gender or diathesis) of a verb..." Gender of a verb? I've never heard that term; is there a citation? (I've also never heard of diathesis in this context, but I'm less ready to call that into question--still, a citation would be nice.)
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Britannica quote (which I admit to having added rather hastily), that's neither here nor there in this context. English language grammars, I admit, very consistently use the term "voice". Feel free to remove the term "diathesis" as well, if you like, since it's very Greek-oriented.
863:. However, we are graded on the content present on this specific Knowledge page so we would appreciate if these sections could be kept for a little longer just until our project has been marked and then we would be happy to edit and transfer the info over to the other pages.
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From the on-line version of ENCYCLOPEDIA BRITANNICA: "in language, a phenomenon in which the words of a certain part of speech, usually nouns, require the agreement, or concord, through grammatical marking (or inflection), of various other words related to them in a
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In practice, however, linguists usually treat diathesis and voice as synonymous. So you will find that the above-mentioned languages are described as having "voice without morphological voice marking", instead of "diathesis without voice marking".
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I'm delighted to see such detailed exposition of a grammatical topic! However, I do agree with
Austronesier that this level of detail belongs to the individual grammar articles about each language (and the content can even be plausibly split into
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Great, hope you got an A :) Come to think of it, as long as we don't have really a good idea about how to distribute the detailed language-specific material to other existing/new articles, we can just leave the page as it is for the time being.
333:"sex" in Latin. It meant something broad like "type". There's a very frequent confusion about this among amateur linguistics who take "gender" to have something to do with modern sex roles. It doesn't. At least, it didn't originally.
1240:"case", which can refer to a syntactic functional category and at the same time to its morphological realization). In a handful of languages, however, you can express diathesis without any morphological marking on the verb (e.g. in
1019:
Thanks for letting us know! Now that we are finished with the assignment we won't be checking this account very often so feel free to delete, edit or change whatever you see fit. Thanks again for your patience and understanding!
1286:) which gives the impression of a tautonymy. And the lack of a clarification (as a language-specific?) which might be helpful to students of e.g. Greek for example, for an exercise of 'grammatical recognition' for a verb like
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genus actīvum (active). laudo I praise. genus medĭum (middle). lāvor = lavo me I wash, I wash myself. genus passīvum (passive). laudor I am praised (by somebody else). genus neutrum (neutral). dormio I sleep. "
1252:); diathesis is only visible from the accompanying patterns of person-agreement and the case-marking of noun phrases. So in Zúñiga & Kittilä's terms, these languages have diathesis without corresponding voice marking.
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use this wiki page to edit and add our info to. We apologize for adding too much detail and taking away from the general concept. We agree that our info on
Mandarin and Japanese voice would be better suited to the pages
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I took Latin many years ago and vaguely recall that "to be born" is not active or passive voice, but something else. I was hoping to find something on this subject in this article, but alas, do not. Can anyone help?
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Fixed. I could not find a source for middle voice, but that is cited in its own section. A sentence like "This is strange" is called an "anticipatory construction," evidently not in
Knowledge but cited in Crews,
917:, where content can be built undisturbed with all the necessary trial-and-error, and only insert the complete material once into the main article. In any case, just give a sign when your project is finished. –
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Over the next few weeks, we'll be re-organizing the content & structure of this article to regularize the presentation of the datasets in according with the norms of how to format natural language data.
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This distinction is available in English through the use of the "be-passive" and the "got-passive", though this is not accepted by all speakers, and is considered colloquial or substandard in some circles:
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Your cite satisfies the Knowledge criteria, but the article's assertion, as attributed to Crews, doesn't satisfy me. In my lexicon, "This is strange" constitutes neither active voice nor passive voice but
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Okay, this doesn't conclusively prove my point, but notice the expression "usually nouns". In order to get more citations, I'll have to get up from the computer and pull down some books from the shelves.
821:, where they actually belong. I'd strongly advice to add the material in those articles (and maybe in a later step create specialized sub-articles), and to trim it here to a reasonable minimum.
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1181:)= the sense of what I say). It is indeed very confusing that the terms 'active', 'passive' are used for both voice and diathesis (=a meaning of inflectional forms). I see that
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There's no citation for the article's following assertion: "When the subject is the agent or doer of the action, the verb is in the active voice." The assertion qualifies as an
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individual languages are certainly fine and helpful as long they serve to illustrate the gerenal concept. But all the details which you have added here are not even found in
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Hi, we have received our grade and we were wondering how we should go about removing or transferring the content to other pages. Any insight would be appreciated. Thanks!
1290:(= I work) by stating: 'verb. voice:passive. diathesis:active (or: voice:passive with active sense). tense:present. mood:indicative 1st person singular.' Thank you again.
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Thank you for your understanding. We will let you know as soon as we receive our grade, which will most likely be sometime early in the new year. Happy Holidays! –
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Voice has nothing to do with agreement, so the Britannica example doesn't actually support your assertion. The Latin example only supports the use of the term
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I have no idea, where is the middle voice in Bengali. If anyone has any information about it, please give an example and source from which it has been taken.
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is a typological set of forms (by vox = how you say it), which usually -but not always- corresponds to a homonymous sense (diathesis, genus / genera verbi (
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731:. - dynamic passive - Someone opens the store by opening the door, unlocking the door, turning the "open" sign and thus in the process of opening it
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1057:(despite some linguistic theory to the contrary), there remains a lack of a citation for the article's assertion corresponding to that observation. --
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for you immediate and detailed response. I am neither a linguist, nor a wikipedian. I was just worried by the very first line's expression (
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1094:. Don't bother googling the term; I coined it myself. On a separate note, you might want to re-examine your understanding of what
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This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available
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is defined here as a grammatical category whose values correspond to particular diatheses marked on the form of predicates.
1134:? I think another example should be drawn up to illustrate, because as is, this sentence misinforms a careful reader. anon:
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1218:(Zúñiga & Kittilä, 2019) can bring light to this question. Zúñiga & Kittilä use the following definitions (p. 4):
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I can't access the source of this 'adapted' tree, Alexiadou & Doron 2011. Do those authors actually construe the PP
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for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists.
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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uses a distinction 'transitive', 'intransitive', but I cannot find the word 'diathesis'.
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where 6.φωνές (voices) are discussed completely separately from 1.διαθέσεις (diatheses).
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refers to any specific mapping of semantic roles (SRs) onto grammatical roles (GRs).
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While all native Greek Grammars make a distinction of φωνή - διάθεσις/διάθεση, e.g.
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Thank you for the more detailed background information, I for my part agree with
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1102:. The term, "dummy pronoun," sounds too condescending for my tastes.) Cheers. --
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In this way the following categories were long ago inferred for PIE:
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as a complement of the agent-theta-role-bearing PP complement of V
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moods: indicative, injunctive, subjunctive, optative, imperative
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Can you point to some sources that use gender to mean voice?
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to be on safe side, many class assignments make use of the
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Sorry that I cannot provide bibliography in English for
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http://www.webtopos.gr/eng/languages/latin/verb.web.htm
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by way of Old French, is not a direct translation). —
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Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
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1274:Thank you M
1258:Austronesier
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968:Megaman en m
960:Austronesier
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934:Austronesier
919:Austronesier
867:Megaman en m
850:Austronesier
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835:Austronesier
825:Megaman en m
804:
777:— Preceding
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757:Ashutosh Jha
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738:84.161.8.150
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638:
635:"To be born"
613:Kotabatubara
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51:WikiProjects
1292:Sarri.greek
1242:Tukang Besi
1199:Sarri.greek
783:RM Dechaine
562:(end quote)
123:Linguistics
114:linguistics
70:Linguistics
1311:Categories
1043:ipse dixit
367:sentence."
287:Albahi1988
1246:Manggarai
1223:Diathesis
1085:Anita5192
1070:Anita5192
915:"sandbox"
194:this edit
1177:#Gender?
1022:300voice
991:300voice
978:300voice
940:300voice
904:300voice
877:300voice
808:300voice
791:contribs
779:unsigned
547:(quote:)
299:PrimeBOT
257:365 days
223:Archives
1157:Erutuon
1068:p.438.—
1047:subject
972:Uanfala
910:Uanfala
871:Uanfala
829:Uanfala
686:Shinobu
675:Comment
582:Bantaar
503:Bantaar
415:Bantaar
379:Bantaar
335:Bantaar
320:Mcswell
313:Gender?
198:history
150:on the
41:C-class
1250:Palu'e
1051:status
657:supine
477:Gwalla
469:gender
47:scale.
1132:broke
642:JKeck
473:genus
192:with
1296:talk
1262:talk
1203:talk
1140:talk
1074:talk
1026:talk
1002:talk
982:talk
970:and
944:talk
923:talk
881:talk
869:and
859:and
839:talk
827:and
817:and
787:talk
761:talk
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665:talk
646:talk
617:talk
586:talk
507:talk
481:Talk
445:talk
419:talk
383:talk
354:talk
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324:talk
303:talk
1248:or
1175:cf.
684:I,
659:? -
297:by
182:of
142:Mid
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