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welcomed, but need to practice as the
Tradition mandates (and yes, there are mandates) You are no longer vegan when you begin eating meat. You are no longer Gardnerian when you stop practicing what Gardner and others passes on. Citing the biased WH article is also misleading as that article only states one side of the story, and quotes a small handful of Llewellyn authors looking for a chance to plug their books. There are many published sources from early Gardnerians saying the Tradition is passed cross-gender. The problem is that a small few do not like this mandate and thus seek to re-define cross-gender. Might I suggest Ian et al start their own page and call it Inclusive Wicca or something else?
810:) covering the publication of the open letter, which interviewed a handful of prominent Gardnerians about it. Those articles are reliable sources confirming the existence of the letter itself. However, the information on this page doesn't reflect what's given in those articles. Rather than describing a schism, the Wild Hunt's pieces note "widespread dismissal of any influence the statement’s authors have in the Gardenarian community" and say that "the proclamation effectively only applies to covens that are led by or hive from the documents’ signers."
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introduced ambiguous and unexplained language on "gender polarity" that only serves to muddy the waters of the section. I am genuinely trying to engage in good faith here to help produce a neutral and well-sourced description of this letter and its reception, but at this point I don't know what more I can do. I'm not re-adding my edits because I'm sure they'd just be reverted again, but I'm really hoping that the RfC below can get some impartial editors to help settle this dispute.
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TWH they have only included information from one side of this story. The tradgardwica.com site that the document is being cited to is also not a reliable source. It contains zero information as to who runs it and whose views it is expressing. This means we have no reliable sources supporting this at all. That being the case it should be deleted.
718:). Grey literature will often be referenced in academic papers, but that doesn't make the sources notable in the Knowledge sense - the academic articles themselves, essentially constituting a review, might be. If a document is important, it can be lodged at Wikisource, and if accepted there could be cited here.
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Has previously uploaded
Youtube Videos indicating that he is opposed to the Declaration that was released and is therefore a biased editor. I would note that rather than seeking to correct the text, he deleted it wholesale. The history happened and has been cited in academic papers, so it's existence
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To me this seems interesting enough to be included if it can be supported by reliable sources. It was alleged above that it had been reported in academic papers so if they can be found and cited that would be great. Is The Wild Hunt a reliable source? I think not. It is a group blog. As is usual for
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Fair enough. I shall use IanMckeachie instead of Ian in the future. Knowledge has it's own rules and regs and we all have to abide by them. Thank you for the clarification. Question though, given that he used his full legal name as his username, can we refer to him as Ian McKeachie or do we have to
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has reverted my edits, reintroduced citation to grey literature that was previously removed because it does not constitute a
Reliable Source by Knowledge's standards, has removed information taken directly from the only RS available on the matter because they dislike what that source says, and has
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It is also noteworthy to point out that the Wild Hunt did not reach out to any sources on the
Traditional side, only the Inclusive side, for comment. They only linked to the Declaration after they were publicly called out on their Reddit page for engaging in biased reporting. A cursory read of the
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The edits posted just a few minutes ago are totally misleading. They will not stand for long. 47 elders and coven leaders signed their name to a
Declaration, thus they were not anonymous. Also the controversy is not about Trans inclusion, as the Declaration clearly stated that they and all are
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That's probably for the best, given that
Himagics8 has reopened their account, removed quotations and altered language, and then deleted their account again. I think the best way to resolve the situation would be to bring in uninvolved editors who have a good deal of experience with Knowledge's
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I disagree. They provide valid educational and historical value to readers. They should stay. The Wild Hunt merely quoted a handful of
Llewellyn authors plugging their own books and seeking publicity by weighing in on the controversy. Such commercialism has no place in Knowledge. The whole
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It's unclear to me that this section, which describes an open letter signed by fewer than 50 people, is of sufficient significance to the religion as a whole to be included on its
Knowledge page. It's also unclear that the "schism" is accurately described, as the only source given is this open
817:, you're a much more experienced editor than I am, so I defer to your judgment as to how the section in question should be handled---whether it would be better to delete it or to edit it to remove citations from personal blogs and instead provide the information from a reliable source.
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Deletion is an attempt at censorship and seeks to hide the fact that there is a schism -- where one side called out the other as no longer practicing the
Gardnerian Tradition. Students deserve to know this. Censorship has no place in Knowledge. The page should stand as is.
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and it is unlikely that the
Declaration itself would constitute a Reliable Source for the purposes of Knowledge. We really need additional, secondary sources that comment on the schism/argument. Is anyone aware of any such secondary sources other than The Wild Hunt?
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delete that edit and try to revert it back to what they had written, as it seems likely they will do. They also seem to be deleting and recreating their accounts every time they edit or comment here, which is making it difficult to have a conversation.
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letter. The section was recently added by someone who clearly feels strongly about it, as they have reverted edits that removed or altered it. I would propose removing the section altogether, but I worry we may have a burgeoning edit war on our hands.
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Lots of things happen--the question is whether those things are significant enough to deserve mention on a Knowledge article. Religious communities experience small-scale infighting all the time, but not every spat ends up on Knowledge. The entry on
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I think that the best option would be to delete all of the recently added paragraphs, because they rely on non-Reliable Sources, and then to write a new (shorter, more concise) paragraph that relies upon (and cites) the Wild Hunt articles.
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to obtain the opinions of additional, uninvolved editors regarding the wording they wish to include. Of course, editors who are not familiar with Knowledge's policies must be aware that everything at Knowledge needs to be based on
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The Wild Hunt article covering the event said that a small group was behind the declaration. It does say "47 Gardnerians who are either third-degree or autonomous second-degree". The declaration file appears to be locked.
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discussing the schism cited, it makes sense to delete the information. If such a schism does come to be covered by Reliable Sources at a later date, then the subject could be re-integrated back into the article.
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doesn't actually want to have a discussion about what a neutral viewpoint is and wants to move the discussion into completely unrelated things since he cannot substantiate his viewpoints otherwise.
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When I hover over their username, the alt text reads "User:Himagics8 (page does not exist)". Does this not mean their account has been deleted? If not, I apologize for having misunderstood.
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articles referenced confirms this biased reporting. Also, one of the Editors on this thread vociferously opposing the addition of this section is quoted in the Wild Hunt article.
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Although, in addition to my previous comment, has the division been covered at The Wild Hunt news website? If so, that would constitute a Reliable Source for Knowledge's purposes.
1230:. Ianmckeachie has asked for a more formal process soliciting comments from the larger Knowledge community. This is a standard way within English Knowledge that follows the
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I do ask you to please consider using an editor's full account name rather than shortening it to a first name. I believe this to be in line with the
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The deletion seems very reasonable to me; there were numerous problems with the block of text, including its reliance on text from a blog site (
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with three edits on the article, I have little stake here & must refer it to those who have edited more. Let's check in with
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argument that there is no schism is evidence that there is, and the chief proponents against it are publicity seekers.
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Why is a new talk thread being started? Did Ian not appreciate the responses that he got on the original thread?
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1371:) provides context for the discussion surrounding the section in question, and why the RfC was made.
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on 17 April 2020. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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editorial standards. I'm not aware of any other Reliable Sources on the subject, unfortunately.
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I remind you to use usernames rather than alleged first names. Doing the latter violates our
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off-site opinions to repeatedly challenge their edits can be a form of harassment
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How to word the discussion of the open letter on "traditional" Gardnerian Wicca?
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I do believe that my comments about posting information about another editor's
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Again, I am sorry if I may have misled anyone about English Knowledge policy.
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A more experienced editor has pointed out to me that there is nothing in the
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Does anyone have a Reliable Source that can be used for this section?
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as a recent editor on this page and an experienced Knowledge editor.
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Talk:Gardnerian Wicca#Declaration of the Traditional Gardnerian Wica
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If Himagics8 and Editor-37921 are unhappy then we can set up a
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reopened their account, then deleted their account again.
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is not in question as the previous reviewer pointed out.
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Gardnerian Wicca#Controversy Over Transgender Inclusion
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Knowledge:Harassment#Posting of personal information
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1173:. Would you please add your thoughts?
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1294:: Got it. Thanks for the help.
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