882:("much more used than any other topic covered in Knowledge to which the same word(s) may also refer"). Also, per the principle of least surprise. I agree with Station1 that we want to minimize user encounters with dab pages. In this case (assuming the move succeeds) a plain search for Duluth will take them to this article (through a redirect, unfortunately, but that's another issue). Most will be where they want to be right away. Most others will be one
33:
457:), and it's an arduous, tedious process sorting out the few articles that need to be corrected. (This, of course, can also be an argument for keeping things the way they are in this case, since it would be really hard to find the few Georgia links that would show up.) If we're not going by page links, though, let's just say that Duluth, Minnesota is a major port and the center of a metropolitan area, while Duluth, Georgia is a suburb. --
82:
64:
834:
Using this as an example, as things now stand 3500-4000 viewers per month are surprised they landed on a dab page and need to click through. If Duluth redirected to
Minnesota, only a quarter to a half that many would be surprised they were at Duluth, Minn, and need to click through (estimating based
342:
Numbers of incoming links are highly unreliable. They can show that there is a clear need to disambiguate, but not the opposite. They don't show the opposite because it is so easy to "game the system" to make a case for a given "primary topic" by going through the list and fixing links that intend
379:
It is interesting to do a Google search just on "Duluth -Knowledge" (so as to exclude wikipedia results). Of the first 100 returns, it looks like over 85 directly relate to the
Minnesota city or attractions in it, and 10-12 to the Georgia one. (There is some duplication so I didn't make an exact
283:
There is also the novel by one of the most well known authors in the world. Also, for all you know someone from
Georgia went through to fix most of the links to their town (not likely, but possible). My point is that "what links here" should never be used as a factor in deciding whether to move a
678:
since it is not clear that with everything on the dab page that there is a primary use. Duluth is more then the two cities which is all everyone seems to be focusing on. Also leaving the dab page where it is makes disambiguation cleanup possible. Moving a dab page needs a strong consensus and a
804:
Because dab pages are not articles. No reader expects to wind up on a dab page and ideally no one ever should. In cases where article titles are ambiguous, we should serve the majority. A hatnote is usually the more unobtrusive way to direct the minority. Sure, there will be a few cases where a
819:
Gee, that is why dab pages exist. Article links should not drop the reader at a dab page. However if a reader tries to go to an ambiguous name, they should wind up at a dab page and not a page that is not what they are looking for. Its the principle of least surprise.
244:
The
Georgia town is just as notable and has good claim. Incoming links are NOT a reliable indicator since many people (including myself) try and make sure links to disambiguation pages get fixed to point to the right page.
327:
When I start fixing ambiguous links and every article but one so far links properly to Duluth, Minnesota, that is a very strong indication to me as to what the primary topic is. (Sorry about my lousy indenting skills.)
587:. Duluth, Minnesota is well-known not only for its size, but importance as a port. Where one use is primary or more common the name is often used for the article on that use, even though other uses exist.
617:
in its title. Folks looking for an airport, school, depot, religious institution, or
Precambrian rock formation are not likely to just search for the single word. We should eliminate the excess.
903:. I don't think it's been demonstrated that the Georgia town is "just as notable", and the page views show that this article is much more often searched for by readers than the other one.
471:
A primary topic is supposed to be "clearly" primary. In 2009 to date, the prime contender for primary topic article gets 3.4 times more page views than one other article. --
657:, when there is a cluster of articles related to a geographic name, and the base name is ambiguous, it is especially helpful to have a dab page occupy the base name. --
717:: those articles are on the dab pages because the incoming links to the dab so often intended an article in the cluster other than the presumptive "primary topic". --
170:
to move at this time. I am closing this move discussion so primarily due to its having been running for so long, and without prejudice against a re-proposal.
709:
This is why even if there were no Duluth GA the disambiguation page should remain here. There are similar clusters of related articles on the dab pages
878:
When one topic on a dab page gets over 3 times as many hits as the second most popular topic, and all the others are related to the first, that's a
704:
577:
799:
688:
895:
726:
554:
515:
494:
480:
466:
352:
790:
I don't understand why editors don't like dab pages. Not every article needs to be the primary use and not every page will have a primary use.
604:
337:
260:
236:
912:
858:
844:
829:
814:
485:
Una, could you clarify that? Does the 3.4 figure apply to primary topics across
Knowledge, or for Duluth, Minnesota versus Duluth, Georgia?--
666:
432:
400:
886:
from getting to their intended destination, while only the rare remainder will have to click to and sift through the dab page. Perfect. --
781:
751:
644:
626:
299:
278:
564:- Not that this has any bearing on the outcome of this discussion, but there's a funny tale about how Duluth, Georgia, got its name. See
958:
654:
108:
944:
695:
The reason everyone is focusing on the two cities is that all of the other uses have some relation to the city in
Minnesota. --
214:
104:
89:
69:
922:
Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
184:
756:
They are very useful comparisons in terms of what actually needs to be disambiguated. Many of the incoming links to
565:
423:
Why is it unlikely? I think it is normal practice by someone who isn't really into fixing links to dab pages. --
931:
I just now accidentally hit the "enter" key while undoing an edit. What I meant to type was " graduated from
849:
Well if half as many are not there for Duluth, Minnesota, then it is clear that there is no a primary topic.
44:
17:
631:
Fixed. Those items were added after discussion started and are certainly not useful or recommended by
926:
769:
94:
194:
99:
940:
879:
700:
573:
542:
490:
462:
333:
210:
141:
32:
743:, there are many other places that share that name. It really isn't a very useful comparison.
269:
But it's unlikely anyone would fix only the links meant for
Georgia while ignoring Minnesota.
854:
825:
795:
684:
304:
Should "never" be used? Sorry, but that's simply untrue. Consider the
Knowledge guideline:
50:
805:
primary use can't be determined among several possibilities, but they are a small minority.
891:
8:
777:
722:
662:
550:
511:
476:
428:
348:
309:
Tools that may help determine a primary topic, but are not determining factors, include:
178:
172:
840:
810:
640:
622:
600:
396:
292:
274:
253:
232:
772:. Hence the subsets. (I see the Weymouth subset got deleted; I've restored it.) --
936:
908:
748:
696:
569:
538:
499:
486:
458:
329:
206:
202:
850:
821:
791:
761:
680:
454:
383:
The issue here is one of where to draw the line. Certainly no one would say that
227:, and only 5 of 43 incoming mainspace links intended for Georgia (now corrected).
887:
503:
224:
935:", as an example of why Duluth University should remain linked on this page. --
773:
718:
658:
546:
507:
472:
424:
344:
952:
836:
806:
636:
618:
596:
392:
287:
270:
248:
228:
904:
744:
592:
391:
should be a dab page; but at some level a name should be disambiguated.
449:
I don't know, I find that hard to believe. I've tried that method with
450:
613:
As an aside-- one thing this page does not need is every entity with
757:
732:
710:
765:
736:
714:
632:
588:
388:
740:
384:
198:
190:
81:
63:
205:, which is the overwhelming primary use of the term.--
107:, where you can join the project or contribute to the
156:
Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.
97:pages on Knowledge. If you wish to help, you can
950:
87:This disambiguation page is within the scope of
566:Duluth, Minnesota#The Untold Delights of Duluth
313:* Incoming wikilinks from Special:WhatLinksHere
453:(looking for links that are supposed to go to
319:* Google web, news, scholar, or book searches
93:, an attempt to structure and organize all
30:
760:intend one of several articles related to
679:strong case. That case is not made here.
103:attached to this talk page, or visit the
43:does not require a rating on Knowledge's
14:
951:
316:* Knowledge article traffic statistics
768:intend ditto some article related to
655:repairing incoming links to dab pages
150:The following discussion is closed.
117:Knowledge:WikiProject Disambiguation
26:
120:Template:WikiProject Disambiguation
49:It is of interest to the following
24:
223:. Gets 2-4 times the pageviews of
25:
970:
764:. Many of the incoming links to
959:WikiProject Disambiguation pages
918:The discussion above is closed.
502:gets 3.4 times the pageviews of
80:
62:
31:
913:07:09, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
896:21:55, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
859:18:50, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
845:08:33, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
830:21:50, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
815:23:43, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
800:21:09, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
782:15:07, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
752:11:33, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
727:05:09, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
705:17:59, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
689:02:46, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
667:16:06, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
645:17:23, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
627:14:30, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
605:13:56, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
578:13:03, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
555:04:14, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
516:04:02, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
495:12:22, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
481:16:16, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
467:12:44, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
433:04:14, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
401:17:40, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
353:16:16, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
338:15:43, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
300:22:42, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
279:21:03, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
261:20:31, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
237:20:17, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
215:16:22, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
13:
1:
7:
185:10:13, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
10:
975:
945:12:34, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
90:WikiProject Disambiguation
770:London Borough of Enfield
75:
57:
920:Please do not modify it.
153:Please do not modify it.
541:doesn't seem to be the
195:Duluth (disambiguation)
123:Disambiguation articles
322:
307:
41:disambiguation page
45:content assessment
927:Duluth University
653:In my experience
539:Duluth, Minnesota
500:Duluth, Minnesota
203:Duluth, Minnesota
166:: the result was
164:Closing statement
139:
138:
135:
134:
131:
130:
16:(Redirected from
966:
762:Weymouth, Dorset
455:Washington, D.C.
343:other topics. --
297:
295:
290:
258:
256:
251:
201:can redirect to
183:
181:
175:
155:
125:
124:
121:
118:
115:
102:
84:
77:
76:
66:
59:
58:
36:
35:
27:
21:
974:
973:
969:
968:
967:
965:
964:
963:
949:
948:
929:
924:
923:
835:on pageviews).
595:are examples.
504:Duluth, Georgia
293:
288:
286:
254:
249:
247:
225:Duluth, Georgia
179:
173:
171:
160:
151:
144:
122:
119:
116:
113:
112:
98:
23:
22:
15:
12:
11:
5:
972:
962:
961:
928:
925:
917:
916:
915:
898:
884:hat link click
872:
871:
870:
869:
868:
867:
866:
865:
864:
863:
862:
861:
788:
787:
786:
785:
784:
692:
691:
672:
671:
670:
669:
650:
649:
648:
647:
608:
607:
581:
580:
558:
557:
531:
530:
529:
528:
527:
526:
525:
524:
523:
522:
521:
520:
519:
518:
440:
439:
438:
437:
436:
435:
416:
415:
414:
413:
412:
411:
410:
409:
408:
407:
406:
405:
404:
403:
381:
364:
363:
362:
361:
360:
359:
358:
357:
356:
355:
325:
324:
323:
321:
320:
317:
314:
264:
263:
239:
188:
187:
159:
158:
146:
145:
143:
142:Requested move
140:
137:
136:
133:
132:
129:
128:
126:
114:Disambiguation
95:disambiguation
85:
73:
72:
70:Disambiguation
67:
55:
54:
48:
37:
9:
6:
4:
3:
2:
971:
960:
957:
956:
954:
947:
946:
942:
938:
934:
921:
914:
910:
906:
902:
899:
897:
893:
889:
885:
881:
880:primary topic
877:
874:
873:
860:
856:
852:
848:
847:
846:
842:
838:
833:
832:
831:
827:
823:
818:
817:
816:
812:
808:
803:
802:
801:
797:
793:
789:
783:
779:
775:
771:
767:
763:
759:
755:
754:
753:
750:
746:
742:
738:
734:
730:
729:
728:
724:
720:
716:
712:
708:
707:
706:
702:
698:
694:
693:
690:
686:
682:
677:
674:
673:
668:
664:
660:
656:
652:
651:
646:
642:
638:
634:
630:
629:
628:
624:
620:
616:
612:
611:
610:
609:
606:
602:
598:
594:
590:
586:
583:
582:
579:
575:
571:
567:
563:
560:
559:
556:
552:
548:
544:
543:primary topic
540:
536:
533:
532:
517:
513:
509:
505:
501:
498:
497:
496:
492:
488:
484:
483:
482:
478:
474:
470:
469:
468:
464:
460:
456:
452:
448:
447:
446:
445:
444:
443:
442:
441:
434:
430:
426:
422:
421:
420:
419:
418:
417:
402:
398:
394:
390:
386:
382:
378:
377:
376:
375:
374:
373:
372:
371:
370:
369:
368:
367:
366:
365:
354:
350:
346:
341:
340:
339:
335:
331:
326:
318:
315:
312:
311:
310:
306:
305:
303:
302:
301:
298:
296:
291:
284:page or not.
282:
281:
280:
276:
272:
268:
267:
266:
265:
262:
259:
257:
252:
243:
240:
238:
234:
230:
226:
222:
219:
218:
217:
216:
212:
208:
204:
200:
196:
192:
186:
182:
176:
169:
165:
162:
161:
157:
154:
148:
147:
127:
110:
106:
101:
100:edit the page
96:
92:
91:
86:
83:
79:
78:
74:
71:
68:
65:
61:
60:
56:
52:
46:
42:
38:
34:
29:
28:
19:
937:Ken Gallager
932:
930:
919:
900:
883:
875:
697:Ken Gallager
675:
614:
584:
570:Ken Gallager
561:
534:
487:Ken Gallager
459:Ken Gallager
330:Ken Gallager
308:
285:
246:
241:
220:
207:Ken Gallager
189:
168:no consensus
167:
163:
152:
149:
105:project page
88:
51:WikiProjects
40:
18:Talk:Duluths
851:Vegaswikian
822:Vegaswikian
792:Vegaswikian
681:Vegaswikian
593:Minneapolis
888:Born2cycle
731:With both
451:Washington
197:— so that
180:barbarian
109:discussion
774:Una Smith
739:, unlike
719:Una Smith
659:Una Smith
547:Una Smith
545:here. --
508:Una Smith
473:Una Smith
425:Una Smith
345:Una Smith
174:Skomorokh
953:Category
837:Station1
807:Station1
758:Weymouth
733:Weymouth
711:Weymouth
637:Station1
619:Kablammo
597:Kablammo
393:Kablammo
271:Station1
229:Station1
905:Jafeluv
901:Support
876:Support
766:Enfield
737:Enfield
715:Enfield
633:MOS:DAB
589:Atlanta
585:Support
562:Comment
389:Atlanta
380:count.)
221:Support
933:Duluth
741:Duluth
676:Oppose
615:Duluth
535:Oppose
385:London
242:Oppose
199:Duluth
191:Duluth
47:scale.
749:wiser
745:older
568:. --
506:. --
294:Spyke
255:Spyke
39:This
941:talk
909:talk
892:talk
855:talk
841:talk
826:talk
811:talk
796:talk
778:talk
735:and
723:talk
713:and
701:talk
685:talk
663:talk
641:talk
623:talk
601:talk
591:and
574:talk
551:talk
512:talk
491:talk
477:talk
463:talk
429:talk
397:talk
349:talk
334:talk
275:talk
233:talk
211:talk
387:or
955::
943:)
911:)
894:)
857:)
843:)
828:)
813:)
798:)
780:)
747:â‰
725:)
703:)
687:)
665:)
643:)
635:.
625:)
603:)
576:)
553:)
537:—
514:)
493:)
479:)
465:)
431:)
399:)
351:)
336:)
328:--
289:TJ
277:)
250:TJ
235:)
213:)
193:→
177:,
939:(
907:(
890:(
853:(
839:(
824:(
809:(
794:(
776:(
721:(
699:(
683:(
661:(
639:(
621:(
599:(
572:(
549:(
510:(
489:(
475:(
461:(
427:(
395:(
347:(
332:(
273:(
231:(
209:(
111:.
53::
20:)
Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License. Additional terms may apply.