871:("much more used than any other topic covered in Knowledge to which the same word(s) may also refer"). Also, per the principle of least surprise. I agree with Station1 that we want to minimize user encounters with dab pages. In this case (assuming the move succeeds) a plain search for Duluth will take them to this article (through a redirect, unfortunately, but that's another issue). Most will be where they want to be right away. Most others will be one
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446:), and it's an arduous, tedious process sorting out the few articles that need to be corrected. (This, of course, can also be an argument for keeping things the way they are in this case, since it would be really hard to find the few Georgia links that would show up.) If we're not going by page links, though, let's just say that Duluth, Minnesota is a major port and the center of a metropolitan area, while Duluth, Georgia is a suburb. --
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Using this as an example, as things now stand 3500-4000 viewers per month are surprised they landed on a dab page and need to click through. If Duluth redirected to
Minnesota, only a quarter to a half that many would be surprised they were at Duluth, Minn, and need to click through (estimating based
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Numbers of incoming links are highly unreliable. They can show that there is a clear need to disambiguate, but not the opposite. They don't show the opposite because it is so easy to "game the system" to make a case for a given "primary topic" by going through the list and fixing links that intend
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It is interesting to do a Google search just on "Duluth -Knowledge" (so as to exclude wikipedia results). Of the first 100 returns, it looks like over 85 directly relate to the
Minnesota city or attractions in it, and 10-12 to the Georgia one. (There is some duplication so I didn't make an exact
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There is also the novel by one of the most well known authors in the world. Also, for all you know someone from
Georgia went through to fix most of the links to their town (not likely, but possible). My point is that "what links here" should never be used as a factor in deciding whether to move a
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since it is not clear that with everything on the dab page that there is a primary use. Duluth is more then the two cities which is all everyone seems to be focusing on. Also leaving the dab page where it is makes disambiguation cleanup possible. Moving a dab page needs a strong consensus and a
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Because dab pages are not articles. No reader expects to wind up on a dab page and ideally no one ever should. In cases where article titles are ambiguous, we should serve the majority. A hatnote is usually the more unobtrusive way to direct the minority. Sure, there will be a few cases where a
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Gee, that is why dab pages exist. Article links should not drop the reader at a dab page. However if a reader tries to go to an ambiguous name, they should wind up at a dab page and not a page that is not what they are looking for. Its the principle of least surprise.
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The
Georgia town is just as notable and has good claim. Incoming links are NOT a reliable indicator since many people (including myself) try and make sure links to disambiguation pages get fixed to point to the right page.
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When I start fixing ambiguous links and every article but one so far links properly to Duluth, Minnesota, that is a very strong indication to me as to what the primary topic is. (Sorry about my lousy indenting skills.)
576:. Duluth, Minnesota is well-known not only for its size, but importance as a port. Where one use is primary or more common the name is often used for the article on that use, even though other uses exist.
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in its title. Folks looking for an airport, school, depot, religious institution, or
Precambrian rock formation are not likely to just search for the single word. We should eliminate the excess.
892:. I don't think it's been demonstrated that the Georgia town is "just as notable", and the page views show that this article is much more often searched for by readers than the other one.
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A primary topic is supposed to be "clearly" primary. In 2009 to date, the prime contender for primary topic article gets 3.4 times more page views than one other article. --
646:, when there is a cluster of articles related to a geographic name, and the base name is ambiguous, it is especially helpful to have a dab page occupy the base name. --
706:: those articles are on the dab pages because the incoming links to the dab so often intended an article in the cluster other than the presumptive "primary topic". --
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to move at this time. I am closing this move discussion so primarily due to its having been running for so long, and without prejudice against a re-proposal.
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This is why even if there were no Duluth GA the disambiguation page should remain here. There are similar clusters of related articles on the dab pages
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When one topic on a dab page gets over 3 times as many hits as the second most popular topic, and all the others are related to the first, that's a
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I don't understand why editors don't like dab pages. Not every article needs to be the primary use and not every page will have a primary use.
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Una, could you clarify that? Does the 3.4 figure apply to primary topics across
Knowledge, or for Duluth, Minnesota versus Duluth, Georgia?--
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from getting to their intended destination, while only the rare remainder will have to click to and sift through the dab page. Perfect. --
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553:- Not that this has any bearing on the outcome of this discussion, but there's a funny tale about how Duluth, Georgia, got its name. See
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The reason everyone is focusing on the two cities is that all of the other uses have some relation to the city in
Minnesota. --
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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They are very useful comparisons in terms of what actually needs to be disambiguated. Many of the incoming links to
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Why is it unlikely? I think it is normal practice by someone who isn't really into fixing links to dab pages. --
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I just now accidentally hit the "enter" key while undoing an edit. What I meant to type was " graduated from
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Well if half as many are not there for Duluth, Minnesota, then it is clear that there is no a primary topic.
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Fixed. Those items were added after discussion started and are certainly not useful or recommended by
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But it's unlikely anyone would fix only the links meant for
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Should "never" be used? Sorry, but that's simply untrue. Consider the
Knowledge guideline:
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Tools that may help determine a primary topic, but are not determining factors, include:
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The issue here is one of where to draw the line. Certainly no one would say that
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should be a dab page; but at some level a name should be disambiguated.
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I don't know, I find that hard to believe. I've tried that method with
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As an aside-- one thing this page does not need is every entity with
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.
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302:* Incoming wikilinks from Special:WhatLinksHere
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308:* Google web, news, scholar, or book searches
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