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depends on how bad the person was. As long as a tiny particle of flesh remains unconsumed, God won’t allow the person to die or lose consciousness. Thus the wages of sin aren’t just death (when we first die of natural causes), but torture (when we are resurrected to be killed again, in agony commensurate to how sinful we were). The torture will be made to continue unmitigated for a period certain—until the suffering of each individual has matched the crimes of that individual. This doctrinal interpretation is made by the
Seventh-day Adventists' prophet, Ellen G. White, who's word is final on biblical interpretation, quote: “Fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and the mighty men, and the noble, and poor and miserable men, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering was there. Said the angel, The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon.“ <ref: -->
835:" The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. Proverbs 11:31. They "shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts." Malachi 4:1. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished "according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah." {GC 673.1}
1197:. There's nothing particularly notable about JW views of soul sleep since that is Luther, though not Lutheran, there's nothing particularly notable about JW views of annihilation, since a swathe of mainstream conditionalist Protestants have argued that, as the article shows. The only notable thing about JWs is their size today (fine okay) and the interesting variant that 144,000 don't soul-sleep, or something. Apart from that it's overweight and not significantly notable to have anything more than a link to a JW belief article. IMHO at least. Other non JW-topiczone editors feel free to input. Cheers.
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Yet you left the longer section on
Seventh Day Adventists, which is badly written, with some of it only obliquely referring to the subject of the article. I hadn't seen this article before; I found it only after an annihilationist religions category was added to the JW article. The mention of the JWs
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As I only removed the "unsourced little bit" in the first place, I fail to see why you reverted that removal. The has been in place since March 2011 on a very questionable statement. I removed this statement, because it simply does not ring true when considering scholarly opinion on the subject.
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there was to be a merge, I think that "conditional immortality" should be the main article, and annihilationism a sub-topic within it (rather than vice versa, as is currently suggested), since conditional immortality is a broader and deeper topic. However as I said I'm not yet convinced there should
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of human beings results in their total destruction (annihilation) rather than their everlasting torment." Originally it had said that the death of human beings results in their total destruction, but actually most annihilationists do believe in the resurrection of the dead, and they believe that it
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Now, call me thick, but doesn't this say "not bringing sudden annihilation", instead talking of "grievous and long-protracted punishment"? Now, certainly, this is not completely irreconcilable with annihilationism, but nothing in it at all seems to make the claim; it merely makes the interpretation
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On second thought, there's no real point to that, as those viewpoints already have their own articles (for example, texts people cite in defense of universalism are technically arguments against annihilationism, but no point in bringing them over here as they're already in that article). That said,
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I notice that there is a section that lists "Scriptural Texts Cited to Defend
Annihilationism", however, there is no section that lists texts people use to argue against it. In comparison, the article on the "Faith Alone" belief lists passages that people use to argue against it and passages people
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as well. While there are similarities, conditionalists find the differences important, and will often be unhappy at being described as annihilationists. The ACUTE report mentioned in the article devides current opinion on the nature of Hell into a spectrum of 5 beliefs, or which conditionalism and
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Boiler plate is on this article since 2016 accusing of original research. I Don't see how original research on this topic is possible, since it concerns the fate of the damned, which it is impossible to observe personally. To do original research would require that you had something like a Dr. Who
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In my opinion, a major factor is whether they are distinguishable as points of view held. That is, are there any scholars who hold to one and not the other? A major part of the articles is listing the major scholars who hold to each POV. I think it is redundant if the lists are identical, so let's
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The above comment is precisely correct. The "Traditionalism" envisioned in the article is the tradtional
Evangelical Protestant and Catholic concept of eternal Hell (a similar concept being held by most Muslims), not the one countenanced in the Knowledge article of that title, making the linkage
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Your interests are in jeopardy,-the salvation, I mean, of your souls; and unless you give yourselves to seek to know the
Supreme God, a cruel death awaits you when freed from the bonds of body, not bringing sudden annihilation, but destroying by the bitterness of its grievous and long-protracted
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anyone know what the majority believed say in 1017? Was there a Gallop poll that year? Has anyone taken a poll of persons to support what many believe as opposed to what few believe? The topic is worthy of presentation, probably with classification and sub-categories supported by citations. (
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I think the external link to the
Rethinking Hell site should be restored because I believe it does meet WP:ELNO; one of the contributors, Glenn Peoples, is one of the leading publishers of academic material on the subject in the last few years; the site also has endorsements from clearly notable
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I don't see the inclusion of JW's here as problematic, nor do I see the length given to the subheading as being excessive. I know I edit mostly on the topic, so I'm not likely the person you are looking towards for a comment, but the views of JW's as a religion are certainly relevant here and I
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Well we'll see what other editors think, again I'm not sure why we need such a big SDA section either, there's even less distinctive about their version of soul death than the JW version. It's pointless repeating the same content for half a dozen churches. But we'll see what other editors think.
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Your interests are in jeopardy,-the salvation, I mean, of your souls; and unless you give yourselves to seek to know the
Supreme God, a cruel death awaits you when freed from the bonds of body, not bringing sudden annihilation, but destroying by the bitterness of its grievous and long-protracted
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I do agree that the 2 terms are often used interchangeably, and that there may be potential for editorial confusion. However, I think that the concepts are sufficiently different to merit separate articles. Conditionalism is an anthropological concept -- it has to do with the nature of the soul,
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articles be merged. I understand that the two do have slight differences, however in practice they seem to go hand-in-hand. Editorial confusion could happen easily, and material could be repetitive between the pages. The different nuances could be discussed under a heading in a combined article.
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IMHO a great deal of this article should be deleted if it cannot be supported with citations. Statements about what the majority of persons believed throughout church history or what many believe are difficult to support since one is unlikely to have sufficient evidence for support. How would
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The
Seventh-day Adventist position on annihilationism isn't stated with clarity here; it is a bit of a cross between annihilationism and everlasting. Although SDAs teach that hell is a fire that will eventually burn out when the last person has been tortured long enough, the duration of torture
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of the relevant scriptures, both for and against eternal torment; I believe that Out of the Dust delivers a decisive and overwhelming argument in favor of annihilationism. This section avoids alot of the musings and hypotheticals often associated with this debate, and cuts right to heart of the
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The consensus is not to merge, and I have removed the remaining merge tag. The pages do need some work, however. I was originally concerned about overlapping material (e.g. popular advocates, and history), so we will need to clearly define the scope of each article. In particular, the "Popular
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Really, I'm a little disappointed. As an editor who was looking for information on this topic, I'd just like to point out that this article seems appallingly one sided. You have sections for references, historical support, justification, popular advocates, but nothing for those who oppose it.
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I seriously doubt the use of "minority" represents a global point-of-view. While UK and US christians usually believe in eternal torment after the King James Bible. But the KJB is rather unique in its idea of "hell", most translations disagree with it on this issue. German and
Scandinavian
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I don't think this quote can carry the weight given here, certainly not without secondary sources to show us how it is to be understood. The other Church
Fathers quoted also require secondary sources; it's not at all clear that any of them hold to anything like annihilationism.
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Indeed New King James is definitely better as it's one of the first (I am of course discounting the first person that got killed for translating the Latin to English). I think I'll sort that out now. Edit: Ooops, already been done. I should pay more attention to the sign dates.
957:(The Fudge link is actually broken). I have recently published a new book, entitled "Out of the Dust: Understanding Heaven, Hell, and the Resurrection of the Dead". Chapter 14 of this book "blows the lid" off the eternal torment/annihilationism debate. Focusing exclusively on
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he wrote that either view is possible and that he admits to leaning toward annihilationism but not being dogmatic about it. What would be the best way to handle this? Either way I think he should be mentioned somewhere due to him being a "heavyweight" theologically.
1906:"Other New Testament texts including Matthew 10:28 where Christ speaks of the wicked being destroyed "both body and soul" in fiery hell, John 11:11 "our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep", and 1 Thessalonians 4:15 "we shall not precede those who have fallen asleep"."
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I see that Glenn Peoples is listed in the article, but it isn't clear that he's notable enough for a wikipedia article. However, the endorsements to make me lean towards inclusion. If no-one else objects in the next couple of days I will be happy to put it back in.
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Again we see things that are NOT taught in the SDA church in an SDA artical. That's a real shame. And I suppose if I made corrections, they will all be undone before I had the change to make them look right, and the errors restored. Well here's the truth:
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whether there can be genuine human existence apart from the body, the interaction between Hebrew and Greek anthropological ideas, and so on. Annihilationism is specifically to do with one's view of hell, i.e. whether it lasts for eternity or comes to an end.
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I believe that many writers term belief in eternal conscious torment "the traditional view". This terminology could be used, with the first occurrence linked to the article on hell. Agreed that "Traditionalism" with a capital letter is not appropriate.
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The Seventh-day Adventist are not considered part of Christianity. In fact, they are considered heretics. To conflate 7th day to Christianity and use them as a reference to what is Christian doctrine or not, is just flat out wrong and misguided.
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The treatment seems to be unbalanced as emphasizing arguments in favor of annihilationism. And it even fails that, for it does not sufficiently focus on and expose clearly the texts which might be cited on one side or the other.
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Information to be added or removed: Please add "Christopher M. Date" to the list of North American advocates. Explanation of issue: I cannot make the change myself, but I have published articles on the topic in academic journals
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conditionalists such as Edward Fudge and John Stackhouse (as well as some guest content from Fudge). Because I am affiliated with the site, I cannot put it up myself but would like to bring it here for consideration.
1439:(Full disclosure: I am User:Kansan, who wrote earlier on the talk page/have edited the article before (I changed my name to be less of a geographical identifier), and I am affiliated with the Rethinking Hell site).
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In fact, it gives this quote a lot of weight: "However, Arnobius (d. 330) is often recognized as the first to defend annihilationism explicitly. One quote in particular stands out in Arnobius' second book of
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Dr. Witherington is listed as a proponent, but I wonder if he should be moved to the "agnostics" category, or at least out of this category, because he appears to have hedged somewhat on the issue. Here
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annihilationism are 2 of them, thus seeing a clear distinction. Generally, annihilationists will believe in an immortal soul whereas conditionalists will not - this is a substantial difference. --
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tardis & could go & watch either each person's fate after death or in the future after some judgment. And after death, it is impossible to interview people as to what happens to them. (
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I've removed some that was tagged in 2014 and added in 2011 as obvious OR. Most of the Justifications section seems to be OR also, editors choosing what passages back what beliefs. @@@@
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This article keeps using the term Traditionalism in a very specific sense which means something in the context, but is not actually covered by the Knowledge article to which it links.
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If you don't mind, let's hear from an out of topic zone editor. I take that edit summary was a good faith mistake. Reverted, but feel free to remove the unsourced little bit. Cheers.
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Actually, you don't really have any say about who is "free to input". However, you are quite correct that the JW view is not particularly distinct from other Adventist groups.--
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is the final punishment of he lost that results in their total destruction. What happens at death has more to do with the intermediate state and the doctrine of soul sleep.
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this article does seem to have a small bias in favor of it, but we don't need to try to adjust it with a new section like I suggested. So pretty much, ignore what I said.
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Please change the definition of the term "punishment". An English definition is not convincing - please replace with a definition from Strong's Concordance or elsewhere -
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under their own heading invited an expansion of the material, rather than the existing redirect to a much broader article encompassing all JW beliefs. I did so.
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Where did the idea come from? That is part of the debate. If you want to understand Biblical sources, look up the terms in a concordance, like at BibleHub. (
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Wayyyyy too much emphasis on Annihilationist arguments. Gonna scrape some sources for some extra criticism of Annihilationism to balance this article out.
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I thought Jehovah's Witnesses taught the same thing, and aren't there others? What about Billy Graham, didn't he say hell will not last for eternity?
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I disagree also, as I'm a Conditionalist and we do see very important differences with annihilationists as clearly noted in the comments above.
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misleading at best, useless at worst. This should be rectified, preferrably with the input of the article's original contributors and editors.
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Ben's not a proponent. When I last spoke with him about it he indicated that he thought the Bible certainly does not teach annihilationism.
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1275:. Nevermind, I see that the edit added the content under discussion, I'm not exactly sure how that happened, but it was unintended.
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The editor who wrote it is invited to make an intelligible sentence out of it. "Other New Testament texts including Matthew 10:28"
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Opponents of annihilationism point to passages in the Bible which they claim support the idea of an immortal soul. (recovered by
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Therefore the better question is why did you revert the edit? I will again remove the unsourced material per your statement.
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Please explain your reason. The question is not whether it is "advanced" but whether the two are sufficiently similar.
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The only thing which seems to "stand out" in this quote is that it is obtuse. What on earth does Arnobius mean? (
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https://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/11/us/tormented-in-the-afterlife-but-not-forever-conditionalism-gains-ground.html
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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with
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We do of course have the fact that Death itself is thrown into the lake of fire and this of course:
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Great! Please find a reliable source which says that and improve the article by adding the content.
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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following intensive discussions there. Editors may wish to comment on the accuracy of the table.
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It seems to be a listing of texts but not meant to be a complete sentence. Halcyon grun Sproutz
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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The Article is Largely Polemical, not an objective description of a POV supported by citations
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I just reversed a large section of material by JW-topiczone editor BlackCab. Why? Because of
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protestants to not believe in hell, neither does non-US Catholics, Orthodox Christians, etc.
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https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2016/05/160513-theology-hell-history-christianity/
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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with
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Jehovah's Witnesses: "The Apocalyptic Arians" - - A Biblical and Historical Critique
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matter, breaking new ground in the process. Non-denominational and online for free,
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One quote in particular stands out in Arnobius' second book of Against the Heathen:
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Does this article violate NPOV? Is its emphasis an argument for annihilationism?
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use to argue for it. It just seems rather one-sided the way it's presented.
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Proves against annihilationism, use and incorpore this into the article:
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Talk:Christian mortalism#Table of terms regarding the intermediate state
896:: What about Augustine of Hippo? It's not like Americans invented hell.
823:, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. </ br: -->
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It is a rather advanced topic, I don't think merging will help anything.
1859:. We would however welcome you improving the article in other ways. –
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Early forms of conditional immortality can be found in the writing of
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https://web.archive.org/web/20080503002804/http://jewishnotgreek.com/
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I changed one of the opening lines to this "apart from salvation the
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Should the emphasis be on soul or spirit ? Dichotomy vs Trichotomoy?
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https://www.stmaron.org/The_Maronite_Voice_for_December_2011.pdf
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by an editor with a conflict of interest has now been answered.
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advocates" section will need to be split between each article.
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https://the1a.org/shows/2019-01-08/hell-and-how-we-think-of-it
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Ellen G. White, Spiritual Gifts, vol. 1, page 217 <ref: -->
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I agree. Expand the section on conditional immortality on the
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This page needs references to back it up. Otherwise it is not
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the
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therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee,
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upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee."
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I'm working on it as best as I can, maybe others can help.
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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Yes, it does seem imbalanced. Maybe you could improve its
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http://gbgm-umc.org/umhistory/wesley/sermons/serm-128.stm
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don't think the edit gives undue weight to the religion.
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The article quotes Arnobius in favor of annihilationism:
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High-importance Seventh-day Adventist Church articles
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Is annihilationism exclusive to the SDA denomination?
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1734:using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
1583:using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
1944:Obtuse quote could be improved by some explanation
2077:WikiProject Seventh-day Adventist Church articles
1877:Is Original Research on Annihilationism Possible?
981:Scriptural Texts Cited to Oppose Annihilationism?
953:Suggestion for another revelant link for research
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33:for general discussion of the article's subject.
1158:Table of terms regarding the intermediate state
1720:This message was posted before February 2018.
1569:This message was posted before February 2018.
1042:No Heavenly Hope for the Old Testament Saints?
2067:C-Class Seventh-day Adventist Church articles
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2087:High-importance Jehovah's Witnesses articles
1541:http://www.edwardfudge.com/written/fire.html
1141:possible. It certainly doesn't "stand out".
964:http://www.cupofwrath.com/OD14-lake-fire.htm
1820:https://fuller.academia.edu/ChristopherDate
1834:), and have been interviewed on NPR's 1A (
1519:I have just modified one external link on
1058:A Catholic Critique of Jehovah's Witnesses
1670:I have just modified 3 external links on
339:WikiProject Seventh-day Adventist Church
1060:writes many thing about annihilationism
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1558:to let others know (documentation at
2082:C-Class Jehovah's Witnesses articles
2062:Mid-importance Christianity articles
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274:This article is within the scope of
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1824:https://amazon.com/author/chrisdate
1289:That's okay, it happens. Thanks :)
793:And where did this idea come from?
207:It is of interest to the following
23:for discussing improvements to the
13:
1162:I've drawn up a table of terms at
1047:The False Doctrine of "Soul Sleep"
1005:, and by citing reliable sources.
351:
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294:Knowledge:WikiProject Christianity
14:
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2092:WikiProject Christianity articles
1674:. Please take a moment to review
1523:. Please take a moment to review
1137:", and the quote above follows.
297:Template:WikiProject Christianity
1898:unintelligible sentence fragment
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363:WikiProject Jehovah's Witnesses
314:This article has been rated as
1712:http://www.jewishnotgreek.com/
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1:
2057:C-Class Christianity articles
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1857:article on you does not exist
1117:Non-primary citation requests
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509:10:30, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
498:10:30, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
360:This article is supported by
336:This article is supported by
288:and see a list of open tasks.
42:Put new text under old text.
1637:00:25, 15 October 2016 (UTC)
1392:17:52, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
1153:23:28, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
1054:about Salvation, Eschatology
1030:01:46, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
781:06:00, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
488:17:44, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
423:23:25, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
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1830:) and National Geographic (
1822:), two books on the topic (
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1181:22:20, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
1092:20:45, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
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948:20:41, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
906:18:12, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
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808:) and "unquenchable fire" (
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689:find out if they would be.
542:Consider the problem fixed
50:New to Knowledge? Welcome!
10:
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1751:(last update: 5 June 2024)
1667:Hello fellow Wikipedians,
1657:18:28, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
1600:(last update: 5 June 2024)
1516:Hello fellow Wikipedians,
1367:22:39, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
575:Definition of "punishment"
475:confession of the General
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105:No original research
1722:After February 2018
1571:After February 2018
1550:parameter below to
1445:Against the current
1150:Felix the Cassowary
1135:Against the Heathen
830:bring thee to ashes
821:I will destroy thee
819:Eze 28:16,18 "and
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31:not a forum
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2013:PeacePeace
1985:PeacePeace
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467:Since the
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88:if needed
71:Be polite
21:talk page
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1772:Cheers.—
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29:This is
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