4469:
categories. So at some point in this case editors wanted to track former names and especially historic former names. I don't question the benefits that the creators perceived when they made these tracking categories and templates. Nor do I question any consensus that might arise here at TfD or at CfD that has an effect on them. If the consensus turns out to be to merge "historic" with "former", then I shall go with the consensus. Maybe the separate tracking isn't needed anymore? Maybe the creators don't even track these anymore? I don't know; however, I like to think that all the present tracking categories and templates still serve a purpose on
Knowledge, whether I know what that purpose is or not.
3391:. The primary arguments for and against merging this template involve how "clear" or otherwise interchangeable the two templates (and their definitions) are to the various participants. With 13 years of use between them, and no "smoking gun" for why either side is "more correct" than the other, I'm going to kick this back to the relevant WikiProject(s); merging the templates without having a wider discussion about the substance behind them creates somewhat of a cart-before-the-horse problem. Clearly, if such a discussion/RFC determines that "former" and "historical" can indeed be used interchangeably, then there is no prejudice against performing this merge.
2744:
2393:
647:
high-traffic article, the list of links includes dozens of these IP talk pages and long-abandoned user pages. This is a link load, and it makes it harder for someone searching for a relevant link on that page to find it. This is particularly problematic for disambiguators because a disambiguation link can sometimes appear in an article through a template or some other transclusion, so a cleaner makes it easier to find problems. Putting a hatnote template on the page hides the discussions, but leaves those links intact. Replacing all content from the user talk page with the
689:, that makes sense to me and I appreciate learning more about how the system-side of things work. If I'm understanding correctly, the OW template serves two purposes: 1) Preventing a bunch of non-active/IP Talk pages from being linked to via What Links Here helps readers avoid non-useful Talk pages and 2) from other discussions here, OW serves as a way for people who feel obligated to identify vandal accounts mark a Talk page (with caveats re template changing & blanking noted by Guy Macon above), this usage helps readers by reducing vandalism.
155:
to remove any warning on their talk page. Only declined to unblock requests can't be removed during a block, which isn't a warning. After seeing this come up in ANI, and the user gets (rightfully) upset, I can't help but think this template is past its expiration date and needs to be retired, as there isn't a way to use it without antagonizing an editor. Anyone that would find the information "useful" already knows to check the page history for deleted warnings, so in the end, it serves no purpose other than to create drama.
3730:
3714:
596:
create a technical problem if it stopped existing), and procedural (it is useful for IP-based pages because multiple people may share the page), but I hadn't yet seen what value it brings to readers of the
Knowledge itself, especially as those readers are presumably reading Articles more than talk pages and/or are capable of clicking on "View History." Policy-wise it seems that the use you outlined can easily be used by editors to harass other editors, so much so that
2017:, which advises being specific about why, I could see someone trying to revive the WikiProject browsing through its history of collaborations and finding this template informative about what they were. That's not a super strong reason to keep, but it's enough for me when weighing it against essentially nothing. As is hopefully clear from my XfD record, I'm a huge fan of template cleanup, but I'm just not seeing why this goes beyond cleanup for the sake of cleanup.
4254:
and is not historical in terms of former names, it's not even close to OR when one follows the definition of historic. The first meaning given in
Wiktionary is "1. Very important; noteworthy: having importance or significance in history". So names like "Peking", China and "Calcutta", India are important and noteworthy names with historic significance. When a former name does not meet that very simple criteria, then it gets tagged with the more general
3921:
examples instead of just saying there has been 13 years of interchangeable use? For eleven of those years I've tried to be meticulous about getting redirect categorization right, correct. I've worked long hours on documentation, to include these two rcat templates, in an attempt to ensure that other editors would also be just as meticulous. I must be missing something. How would you make the documentation for these two even more clear than it is now?
4163:
discussion -- namely their request for examples of these templates being misused / the distinction being unclear. I'm vaguely familiar with the work Paine has been doing with redirect categorisation for a long time, so I think there is some added credibility to his objection to the nomination, and I believe it is appropriate to give editors a chance to address his remarks, should anyone wish to do so.
209:. This template has literally hundreds of thousands of transclusions, almost entirely on IP talk pages. There is no "version for IP users"; the IP warning hat templates are used to hat discussions, not substitute for them. This serves a different purpose – signifying the removal of discussions on IP talk pages altogether to reduce excess link load – and it serves that purpose well.
4064:, that sort of sub-classification for a redirect is purely extraneous. It makes no difference for the online version of Knowledge, and no printed version would reasonably make such an oddly specific distinction in a glossary page etc. This isn't an issue of documentation as claimed, this is an issue of consolidating redundant templates.
3114:, and the second is a doctoral scription by an author (a vicar) who later also wrote "Christian Zionism: Road-map to Armageddon" written "to debunk a powerful heresy called Christian Zionism": again, hardly a scientific, neutral source to base such a template on and place people like the Catholic Dumas in.
5459:
If a template is never going to be used on more pages (since the system has been marked as historical), and never going to be edited (the last edit to this template before the addition of the TfD tag was in 2011, before the system was marked as historical), then there's no point in having a template.
5358:
that topic archives are now considered historical does not mean that they do not exist. so a marker for topical archives that do exist, should still exist as long as we keep the topic archives around. Unless they are merged into chronological archives, the fact that topic archives exist show that the
4709:
leaning in with an oppose simply because I don't think we've got the level of discussion and clarity here that I would expect before stripping away a template gnomed separately for years. There's a lack of concrete examples, few editors here who participate in redirect categorisation, and a real risk
4083:
Since 2007, when both of these categories (former and historic) were created, "former" as a parent category and "historic" as a subcategory to "former", the not-so-subtle distinction has been obvious to those of us who spend much of our time categorizing redirects. So the question to ask now is do we
2585:
I suppose: I'd thought there was more daylight between the two, and would prefer there to be. That is, I'd like both around, so that there can be a greater difference, with an approachable template and a more stern one. Although, as Tony says, we're gonna largely keep using the userspace options. ~
2368:
as to why one has a different graphic than the other. I had thought I had a brilliant idea, but I realized that it might not actually work the way I thought it would, and that the "cute" emoji is more likely to catch the eye of a young, naive editor than a blue "i" that they've probably seen fifteen
779:
per BD2412, and then begin whatever the next step is to change the wording/use to be specifically about notifying
Knowledge readers that "the page this is posted on is from an old and inactive Talk page that has been blanked for technical reasons, please examine "View History" for past activity" etc.
595:
I'm sincerely trying to understand how the OW template serves readers. Before something is deleted or removed it is better to understand why it was made in the first place. Reading commentary earlier there are reasons to keep the template that are technical (it's already on a bunch of pages and would
4714:
have merit, but it requires further discussion I feel. The argument that it is misused has not been fully substantiated in my eyes. And I'm wary of scrapping something I don't understand, and I'm more wary of scrapping something I'm not convinced is properly understood by the participants either (at
4430:
Thank you for doing the extra tagging. To address your question, the only thing that makes it hard to find examples of "misplaced" tags is that, as I and others have argued above, the definitions are so ambiguous that it's hard to define what constitutes "misplacement" in the first place. But if you
4162:
I realise that consensus is trending towards merging, but I'm relisting for two reasons: 1) due to the massive number of transclusions of both templates, I think a longer period of discussion would be beneficial. 2) I think answers to the questions posed by Paine
Ellsworth would be beneficial to the
646:
Let me try to explain it clearly. There are hundreds of thousands of IP editor pages and long-abandoned user pages containing nothing but a handful of warnings or other comments of no value to the encyclopedia. Often, these warnings contain links to articles, so that when you click the button for a
154:
I get why we have a version for IP users since their page isn't their page and many people may use the same IP, but no good can come from using this on an established, registered user's page. It is antagonizing and implies that they can't remove this template, when in fact, the user has every right
5086:
I know this is a fairly clear consensus to merge thus far, but I'm relisting this for two reasons. 1) due to the number of transclusions, to allow time for more opinions, perhaps by users of the template. 2) There has been very little discussion on what functionality should be preserved, other than
4444:
In terms of unaddressed points, several editors above have made the assertion that, even if a concrete distinction were established between the categories, there has still not been any need for them to be separate articulated (Brainulator addressed printworthiness, which is the only rationale I get
4203:
I presume he would argue that he has (in the thread discussion with
Senator2029) - I make no comment on the strength of the argument, simply that I believe it prompts to allow the opportunity for more thorough discussion. Of course, it is not a requirement for any editor to address another's views,
4092:
as evidence because, if those examples exist, they are very hard to find. I've looked and have yet to find a historic-named redirect that I would change to a former-name redirect or vice-versa. I've asked for such examples from the nom and there has been no response with such examples. Do we really
5091:
of archive pages (and lesser increments for 'nearby' pages), rather than just showing 'prev'/'next', and it suppresses the "Archive" text. Since it's quite integral to the topic of merge, I think it'd be better to get a clearer consensus on what the 'merge' will look like at TfD, rather than at an
4253:
of the entries are miscategorized. To prove the positive, all one must do is find twenty or thirty miscategorized entries to show that a problem exists. However, not a single example has been shown in this discussion of a miscategorized entry. So they must not be easy to find. To determine what is
4009:
anymore. One difference that I've found between former names and historic ones is that few or no people use the former names anymore, but historic names die hard. Just look at some of the multi-year discussions seen here on
Knowledge for Calcutta vs. Kolkata or for Bombay vs. Mumbai, and note that
3783:
into "former". For me, it's been hard to determine what's "historic" versus merely a former name. Won't all former names have sources pointing to that name? The "historic" template uses printworthiness as a threshold for determining what goes where, but why not just label the relevant redirects as
2531:
reason) in userspace, and template sandboxing is a common use of that namespace. This is also not
ChildrenPedia, and templates about serious matters, like user privacy and deletion of material down to the history level, shouldn't be labelled with childish smileys. The language of Uw-selfinfo also
4675:
of "former names". And as usual with this great encyclopedia, another editor will come along and correct any errors made by previous sorters. I also submit that it would be a shame to merge these categories after all those years of work by editors who have made and tracked the distinction between
4294:. (I would assume that the "to" templates are also part of this discussion, as well as all four categories that are populated by these templates?) There might be borderline cases that are a judgement call, but I've found them to be rare. It's almost always easy to determine which template to use.
4208:
transcluded templates, which editors have been gnoming to separate for years. It would seem a good idea to allow more than a weeks discussion before scrapping them, especially when the only involved editor here raises the claim that they're not misused. If deletion as 'misused' is proposed, it is
3920:
Maybe if we looked at this from the view that "former" doesn't always mean "historic", but if a name is historic and is no longer actually used, like
Calcutta and Peking, it is always to say the least a "former" name as well. That's why a merge between the two should not happen. Why not show some
289:
I would still consider it to be valid on the page of a long-abandoned registered account, particularly those where the editor in question engaged in minimal participation and then disappeared. However, I would not object to an instruction prohibiting its use on the talk pages of active registered
4670:
In all fairness, it's easy to see by your examples how there could be some confusion. I submit that the gray areas have always been there, and have always been a source of head scratching. However, the longer one works with these, the easier it becomes to make the correct decisions, and even for
4318:, and what is an "other capitalization" or should it be called a "miscapitalization"? Those are just a few of the situations in which editors find themselves having to decide which is the highest and best application of the template tags. So in this case we just follow the dicdef as best we can.
530:
user talk page has a history tab. The vast majority of those history tabs lead to either a blank history or a history of what is currently on the user talk page. A small minority of users delete warnings and criticisms from their user talk page -- usually because they have something to hide. The
5151:
uses the word "archive" only on the current one; it's not needed for more than that. I also like how it displays more than just the very next or very previous archive. For pages with dozens of archives, we probably don't want to list all, but for ones with only 10 or so, sure, let's have all. I
3892:
were renamed, I think we'd say that'd be a clear example of "historic", and if a mid-sized station with a mediumly-long history were renamed, it'd be clear as mud. No one has come up with a clear way to draw the line, let alone enforce that standard and clean up 13 years of interchangeable use.
3594:
These two templates were both created in mid-2007 (I'm not sure if the creator of each was aware of the other), and they have often been used interchangeably. Their documentation tries to make a distinction, but it's not at all clear, only saying that one is for former names with "a significant
2553:
Often it is used for someone posting a personal bio or "my page!" or something like that. And folks sometimes don't see it as protecting their privacy, they complain about removal as anyone would a
Facebook page (or 15 years ago MySpace or Xanga). The template is trying to be approachable and
3887:
If it were just a matter of clarifying the documentation, that probably wouldn't require a merge, but I think there's a more fundamental issue of the line between the categories being extremely fuzzy. To go with the bus station example above, Paine Ellsworth says that'd be a clear use case for
4770:; it seems like Thryduulf is the only editor who has responded to that so far. Seems like SMC is also part of the WP, at a glance of the member list, & has leaned in above. I don't really know which other editors do redirect categorisation on the wiki (I'm not too familiar with the area).
5056:
I prefer Archive nav with a significant margin since it gives more links to a wide array of links allowing for easy navigation and think a merger should include a long parameter or something allowing for this plethora of links which is useful on pages with a lot of archives. Perhaps we could
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per Paine Ellesworth's convincing explanations of how the two differ and the lack of any credible examples given of confusion, miscategorisation or other actual problems caused by the two templates (as distinct from problems theorised to exist by people who do not do any significant redirect
4468:
As I said before, having worked with redirects the whole time I've edited this encyclopedia, I have helped to build understanding of all rcat templates by improving their documentation and application and by improving their indexes. My understanding is that they are used to populate tracking
434:
Users may be within their rights to remove talk page warnings, and for established users/improper warnings, I can see why we allow it, but I've come across way too many vandals who have survived longer than they should have by removing warnings from their talk page to think that everything's
2391:
There shouldn't be two templates doing the same thing, the oversighters should pick one style of message and use it. The concern about the template being easily findable due to file links presented on the template talk page is inapplicable, since one can (and will always be able) to obtain
3861:– Uncertainty about when to use a particular template ("Is it former or historic?" 🤔) is not a reason for combining the two; rather it prompts us to better explain the difference and provide clear examples. We work to create this encyclopedia not through lumping things together, instead
3242:
included in these sources, Tuchman and others won't include e.g. Alexandre Dumas in a Protestant Zionist list. The names, which is what the template (and this discussion) is about, have been taken from the indeed cringe-worthy article by Ice, which isn't science but proselytizing.
3671:. I created the "former name" one, which was made first, and was not aware of the other. While I can think of some clear-cut examples where one of these would apply more than the other, I think most pages are more ambiguous and I don't see the point in policing the distinction.
3216:, given that they are an established university and are themselves Christian Zionists, a source from them explaining the historiography of the individuals involved in that movement and where their theological views originated is useful. Unless you are going to say
567:
Not sure what your point is. Again, the OW template is used to alert the reader that a particular talk page has a bunch of deleted warnings. Knowledge's preferred (but not required) alternative to deleting comments, notices, and warnings has been explained to you.
531:
template identifies these editors so the casual reader will know to check the history. Alas, if someone is determined to make it difficult for the casual reader to know that they have a bunch of warnings in their history, they can just delete the template. --
5188:. That actually means merge, as in integrate the best functionality of both, don't just delete and redirect. I think the one with the shorter name has a feature whereby it does not pointlessly try to link to pages that do not exist, and that's a plus.
3063:
Template is currently a work in progress. The figures laid out in it played a formative role in the creation and advocacy of Protestant Restorationist and Zionist theology, which the article on the topic covers. As laid out in academic articles such as
3993:. Yes, historic names are always former names; however, former names are not always historic. Historic names are sometimes a little weird as former names, because some people may not recognize them as former names. There are still people who think of
315:
Nomination is based on a clear misunderstanding of the purpose of the template. Whether the template should do something special on a registered user's talk page is not within the scope of TfD, although I see it as completely unnecessary.
3629:, which is not part of Twinkle and thus has only 200 transclusions, compared to several thousand each for the other two. If there's consensus for this merge, I may nominate that next, so let me know if there's any reason I shouldn't.
3703:
I've always thought the distinction was crystal clear. "Former name" applies for example to a bus station that underwent a name change. "Historic" applies to those redirects that are like the examples in the template documentation:
4439:, the name of what is today the Palace Station casino in Las Vegas between 1977 and 1984. Can you tell at a glance which is tagged with "former" and which with "historic"? (Answer: Bingo is the one in the historic subcategory.)
4736:, I'd be happy to send out more invites to relevant pages or editors if that would help satiate your concerns. Do we know of any editors who specialize in categories/redirects, or pages such editors are likely to be following?
4010:
redirect protection levels are sometimes still high for editing and renaming. Very heated discussions. When one studies the matter, it isn't really very difficult to make the distinction between historic and former.
5087:
by Trialpears. Some editors believe in replace+delete, others may be suggesting that functionality should be implemented in the target template. I note this template does two main things differently: it shows a
617:
removing a template whose non-technical use is going to result in transforming the userspace of registered users into a "wall of shame." Re: what's been explained to me or not, that's being discussed elsewhere
3000:
I have, after reading their articles, no idea why e.g. the following are included in this template (and have had this template added to their article, as if it was a main part of their career and notability):
4710:
of this being a case of hasty decision-making without the proper expert comments needed to decide whether scrapping these is truly a net plus for the project. The argument that the distinction is unhelpful
612:
keeping a tool that provides some benefit in "warning" readers of the few Talk pages of editors who, you confidently state, "have something to hide" until the page is blanked or the template is changed, or
2526:
merge away redundant templates in "Template:" namespace. The fact that people may have some alternatives in userspace is irrelevant, because we're very tolerant of people doing whatever they like (within
1683:
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per nom. These should be the same. As usually I prefer replace and delete, because that way in future it's much easier for editors to identify the naming of the right template, and also less confusing.
2008:
and intrinsic. The situation is different for template space, where the main harm comes from templates that duplicate others or clog up lists/searches/etc. This template doesn't seem to apply to either.
2532:
doesn't make much sense, in a) presuming someone is going to be displeased in the first place, and b) presuming they're going to be displeased about their privacy being protected. It's just weird.
731:: There must be some kind of way anti-vandals can know that a user has committed vandalism, even if there are no warning templates on the page at that time. This purpose is usually fulfilled by the
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cannot be used as a source because its a Catholic university. This is not to say whether their actual theological views themselves are "true", that is not for us to decide, just to report on them.
814:: I think this template would be useful in case of a removal of warning such that if a user is trying to see the messages before, this template would be useful. Plus, it is used on lots of pages.
4512:: It would make discussion easier if each participant would use : and * in an at least locally consistent manner. :::: after **: is not locally consistent, as :::: should only occur after :::.
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by the way does not really apply to this situation, rather it applies to article content. Editors make redirect categorization judgement calls on a daily basis when it comes to templates like
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really want to rollback a distinction that has been in place longer than I've been a registered editor, for a total term going on fourteen years? After all that time, there has been
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Very unnecessary setup. There is no need to add pages using a navbox to any category. If a user wants to know what pages use it they can check what pages transclude it. Very simple.
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want to discard this important maintenance category distinction by merging these categories after the distinction has served Knowledge for such a relatively long period of time?
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Inconsistent: There are more articles about places in Syria, they all use Infobox settlement directly. All other places in Arab countries use Infobox settlement only directly.
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at present. Concerns of sourcing of the navbox entries were also raised. If an editor is interested in reworking the template to address these points they can request it be
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And potentially make it a no-op on a registered user's talk page, but that is beyond the scope here. Seeing this on a talk page is very useful when fighting vandalism.
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Seems like a very random collection of names. Either needs a very thorough cleanup by someone knowledgeable, or deletion. But it shouldn't be used in articles as is.
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Yes, let's give this one proper discussion rather than acting hastily. I still weakly favour merging, but there are good arguments for leaving things as they are.
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least, that aura is not fully felt). I feel like this is one of those nominations that could benefit from further discussion outside TfD, before bringing it here.
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being merged; it sounds like it would make more sense to rename that one to "R from predecessor company", in line with how the template seems to be intended. What
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4056:- having two templates for similar things is likely to be very confusing for new editors. Despite the protest that there is a significant difference between
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4185:: It's the other way around, not people have to show to Paine Ellsworth when it is misused, but Paine Ellsworth has to come up with a criterion that isn't
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from the documentation). So I'd like to ask that directly: What benefits are there for the maintenance of Knowledge to have these be separate categories?
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No current opinion on this, but if the merge goes through, the title should be "former" as the template is used for more than historic names of places. --
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2932:. Rough consensus, factoring in the RSN discussion as well, is that this template currently does not have a clear inclusion criteria and does not meet
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236:. Deleting it will therefore leave over 555,000 broken links on those pages, which are likely to cause more confusion than the template itself causes.
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should clarify this soon, and tag the templates quickly to this discussion (to allow for a full 7 day advertised discussion following relist) if so.
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generally for the proposers to evidence their claims, as the negative is very difficult (heck, impossible) to do on a highly transcluded template.
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functioning smoothly. Our policies need reform at a higher level, and we should revisit specific templates once we've sorted out the major issues.
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template for marking them should exist. And all topic archives that do not currently use this template should be updated to use this template. --
3751:, so if this good faith although imho incorrect merge proposal goes through, category merger will also have to take place. Time for a baby aspirin
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Non-standard and archaic talk-page archive header, with just 31 transclusions. Redundant to other talk-page archive header templates. Note that
4347:(I would assume that the "to" templates are also part of this discussion, as well as all four categories that are populated by these templates?)
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Keep, because it is so darn useful when cleaning up years-old warnings on a talk page -- IP or registered -- that hasn't been edited in years.
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times already. Also, given that both of these templates are always substed, does it really matter that there's two of them to choose from?
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1942:. It's not doing any harm, and could be useful for someone browsing the history of the WikiProject or trying to revive it in the future.
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be historic? I can't but feel that the reason why it's hard for me to tell what's what is because all historic names are former names. -
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Thank you, Certes! As PR says, it's impossible to prove the negative – one would have to go through each entry one by one to show that
2488:.) No real reason to merge. There’s like 4 total and this seems like make work. People can use whatever they want. So oppose, I guess.
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This keeps the technical function and reminds anyone viewing the page to review the history before reinstating after a ban or whatever.
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5021:. Hopefully a new era will come out of all these mergers, where editors use the talk page to get features added instead of forking. --
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need an example of ambiguity, those abound. Browsing randomly through the categories, here are two of the first pages I came across:
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4189:: When is a former name not historic? What sources shall be used for judgement? Where shall the judgement be stored - in redirects?
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historic past" and advising checking transclusions for examples. I'm not sure how it helps Knowledge to be making this distinction.
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removes these pages from the page altogether while signaling that the user talk page in question has previously had warnings.
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3204:^Tips fedora^. The same information is laid out in "Bible and Sword: England and Palestine from the Bronze Age to Balfour" by
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given that this distinction has been misused, or that these categories have been populated interchangeably. There have been
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Templates which are still in such a state of construction shouldn't yet be added to countless articles, and even less so
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from oversighters, I think this is a discussion that would benefit from their comments. Relisting with advertisement to
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My tuppence worth is that I think the template detracts from, rather than adds to, the articles I've contributed to.
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at all, the first is an essay with a very religious instead of scientific point of view, published digitally by the
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historic names and names that are former, but have nothing to do with world history or any of its sub-histories.
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into "former", unless someone defines a clear distinction between them and provides a reason for keeping both.
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specifically mentions the placing of false or questionable warnings. I guess, in terms of value to the reader,
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This isn't used on IP pages, which have their own template. This is only used on registered users' pages.
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Can be removed by any other registered user, with the only restriction being an edit summary explaining why.
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per Dennis, who has very eloquently summarized the situation, and who's summary I wholeheartedly endorse.
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If someone deletes something from their Talk page it is no longer visible in the Talk page "View History?"
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and others. The template is largely complete now and funcitoning. As for the cringe-posting regarding
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835:. Proposed changes to the template instructions should be discussed on the template's talk page. --
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The Origins of Christian Zionism: Lord Shaftesbury And Evangelical Support For A Jewish Homeland
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below.
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No need for both templates. The names are synonymous. "nav" is described as "an alternative of
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below.
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below.
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below.
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below.
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2505:. If both templates serve a purpose then I do not see how merging them would make less work. -
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below.
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below.
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below.
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below.
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below.
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below.
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below.
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below.
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's
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Keep, and start a discussion at the policy village pump about what the instructions should say
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's
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was written for mainspace, where the downsides of keeping around content of marginal utility
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those redirects that should not be sorted as "historic names", they are still at least in a
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Can be removed by the user who "owns" the talk page. Should not be restored if this happens.
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may have crashed on her tragic round-the-world flight. The island is known historically as
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instead, per BD2412. E.g. simply make it display nothing when on non-IP user talk pages.
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keeping, for technical reasons, a template that is duplicative of IP-specific templates,
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automatically use the long feature if the number of archives is over 10 or something. --
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per above. Same goes for all the essentially identical CotM nominations above this one.
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Syria is the only Arab country to not use Infobox settlement for places exclusively.
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under the name "Infobox Syrian settlement", used on 181 pages in article namespace
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encompasses both IP and non IP, while the others are only meant for IP messsages.
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and others are inherently "unreliable" too because it was founded by Puritans or
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Both templates serve the same purpose. I see no reason for them to be separate.
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Different guy here. My question is the reverse: what sort of former name would
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Unused. Includes the text "The next winner will be selected on May 1, 2009.".
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Should not be removed by any IP, including the IP that "owns" the talk page.
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was created September 2016. Only 11 pages using it were created afterwards.
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Little usage: Created 15:11, 8 November 2015 by PanchoS as a wrapper of
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As the creator of this template, I have no objection to its deletion. --
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Knowledge:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Thomas Ice and Christian Zionism
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Also just finished placing merge notices on all four categories, too.
3865:. Keeping the two templates separate is in line with that principle.
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4274:. When it does meet the dictionary definition, then it's tagged with
4129:, when is a former name not historic? That should be sourced and not
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be a good use of our time, though, if this goes through, is merging
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More Desired than Our Owne Salvation: The Roots of Christian Zionism
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since the method is historical and won't get new transclusions. --
5162:'s vertical separators rather than Archive nav's horizontal ones.
2522:(or just delete and redirect Uw-selfinfo) per nom and Pppery. We
461:. When OP talks about a version for IP users, he is talking about
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and it is not solely the reason for the relist either. These are
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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to make place infobox usage in Syria and Arab world consistent.
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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Knowledge:User pages#Removal of comments, notices, and warnings
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to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
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to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
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to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
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to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
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to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
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to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
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to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
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to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
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to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
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Meh, the real ones most of us use are in user space anyway (
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1156:
Talk:St. Mary's Episcopal Church (Kansas City, Missouri)
4003:. But I seriously doubt that anybody calls Walmart the
4553:: As already asked, what former name is not historic?
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Really don't see the problem here. Consider also that
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and maybe that is the reason that it wasn't listed at
2826:. Nothing special here that isn't already handled by
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Procedural: No /doc until yesterday, and didn't use
5440:Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
5413:Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
5122:Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
5095:Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
4580:Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
4166:Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
3302:Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
2861:Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
2436:Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
5288:
5092:less-visible talk page discussion after a closure.
4643:The example I provided above was not theoretical.
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2795:Knowledge:List of infoboxes/Place#Country-specific
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3046:... are all included in this template, but why?
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2791:Category:Templates calling Infobox settlement
5329:has been marked as "historical" since 2012.
4349:- I think it would be logical to assume so.
2394:the same information via the search function
1333:Knowledge:WikiProject Alternative music/COTW
4974:seems to be preferred, by a ratio of 10:1.
3979:In the Western Pacific is an island called
1894:Knowledge:WikiProject Judaism/Collaboration
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234:currently transcludes to over 555,000 pages
5376:I've removed the link to this template at
1717:Knowledge:WikiProject Africa/Collaboration
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232:: On further examination, this template
3784:printworthy or unprintworthy? See also
2425:Although there are related thoughts at
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3745:Category:Redirects from historic names
3560:Category:Redirects from historic names
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3208:, "History of Zionism, 1600-1918" by
1680:Template:Africa Current collaboration
1627:Template:Africa Current collaboration
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3749:Category:Redirects from former names
3570:Category:Redirects from former names
3565:Category:Redirects to historic names
3104:during a TfD to discuss the template
2803:Knowledge:Mapframe maps in infoboxes
3106:. Your two sources don't look like
3021:Charles-Joseph, 7th Prince of Ligne
1855:
1719:suggests it was last used in 2007.
360:Can be placed on any user talk page
27:
4555:𝟙𝟤𝟯𝟺𝐪𝑤𝒆𝓇𝟷𝟮𝟥𝟜𝓺𝔴𝕖𝖗𝟰
3863:we use using words to give clarity
3575:Category:Redirects to former names
2799:Knowledge:Coordinates in infoboxes
418:𝟙𝟤𝟯𝟺𝐪𝑤𝒆𝓇𝟷𝟮𝟥𝟜𝓺𝔴𝕖𝖗𝟰
28:
18:Knowledge:Templates for discussion
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5261:The result of the discussion was
4838:The result of the discussion was
3387:The result of the discussion was
2928:The result of the discussion was
2664:The result of the discussion was
2237:The result of the discussion was
2120:The result of the discussion was
1831:The result of the discussion was
1654:The result of the discussion was
1447:The result of the discussion was
1270:The result of the discussion was
1154:Single use, having been added to
1093:The result of the discussion was
924:The result of the discussion was
259:Suppress on registered user pages
90:The result of the discussion was
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117:
3807:R from predecessor company name
3624:R from predecessor company name
3554:Plus the associated categories:
5369:02:24, 30 September 2020 (UTC)
5350:16:42, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
5031:10:46, 30 September 2020 (UTC)
5014:14:57, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
4995:17:25, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
4768:Knowledge:WikiProject Redirect
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4076:04:28, 30 September 2020 (UTC)
4029:00:01, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
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3912:19:18, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
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3679:03:38, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
3664:21:19, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
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3614:19:30, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
3076:by Robert O. Smith (2013) and
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1:
5290:Template:Topical talk archive
5234:Template:Topical talk archive
4766:, Primefac dropped a note at
4526:For the record, the likes of
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3586:Template:R from historic name
3408:Template:R from historic name
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3360:Template:R from historic name
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30:
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4591:10:11, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
3331:00:45, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
3312:12:44, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
2955:16:32, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
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2844:05:36, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
2693:Template:Infobox Syria place
2686:18:38, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
2637:Template:Infobox Syria place
2608:10:41, 22 October 2020 (UTC)
2576:10:41, 22 October 2020 (UTC)
2554:friendly, and it is good. ~
2549:13:54, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
2515:00:03, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
2498:22:53, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
2476:21:26, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
2446:15:43, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
2256:23:45, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
2151:Template:Valentinian_dynasty
2144:16:46, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
2093:Template:Valentinian dynasty
2064:14:25, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
2036:22:37, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
1993:11:11, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
1961:05:40, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
1935:00:34, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
1917:21:01, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
1850:23:54, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
1775:23:36, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
1758:00:34, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
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4950:Template:Archive navigation
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4563:16:31, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
4544:01:09, 9 October 2020 (UTC)
4531:cause accessibility prolems
4522:15:42, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
4488:08:47, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
4464:19:11, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
4414:16:34, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
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4199:01:56, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
4176:23:34, 5 October 2020 (UTC)
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3890:Port Authority Bus Terminal
3619:I notice that there's also
3590:Template:R from former name
3480:Template:R from former name
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3285:06:59, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
3253:06:56, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
3238:No, the same information is
3234:11:18, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
3180:06:45, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
3150:19:03, 5 October 2020 (UTC)
3124:12:59, 5 October 2020 (UTC)
3090:11:23, 5 October 2020 (UTC)
3080:by Donald M. Lewis (2014).
3056:08:29, 5 October 2020 (UTC)
2962:Template:Protestant Zionism
2901:Template:Protestant Zionism
2818:00:14, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
2406:14:36, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
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2356:11:58, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
10:
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2364:. See the discussion at
950:Template:Ghost Rider/Clear
897:Template:Ghost Rider/Clear
416:That is simply incorrect.
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5504:Please do not modify it.
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4822:Please do not modify it.
4792:Please do not modify it.
3371:Please do not modify it.
3341:Please do not modify it.
3112:Jerry Falwell University
3026:Charles Frederick Zimpel
2940:for them to work on it.
2912:Please do not modify it.
2882:Please do not modify it.
2729:Replace/Substitute with
2648:Please do not modify it.
2618:Please do not modify it.
2455:per nom and per Pppery.
2431:Knowledge talk:Oversight
2427:Template talk:Suppressed
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2191:Please do not modify it.
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5381:Templates for archiving
5327:Knowledge:Topic archive
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3802:I'm not so sure about
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476:Old IP warnings bottom
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4133:stored in redirects.
3990:Mary Letitia's Island
3888:"former", but if the
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3222:Georgetown University
2947:ProcrastinatingReader
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4598:Merge into "former"
3983:, where some think
3734:Subjective idealism
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2348:Interstellarity
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2126:2020 October 30
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88:
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40:
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15:
9:
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4:
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5338:Pigsonthewing
5334:
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5304:
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5017:
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4992:
4988:
4983:Pigsonthewing
4979:
4970:
4960:
4951:
4947:
4944:
4936:
4933:
4930:
4927:
4924:
4923:transclusions
4921:
4918:
4915:
4912:
4908:
4904:
4900:
4897:
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4887:transclusions
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4303:R printworthy
4297:
4290:
4280:
4270:
4260:
4252:
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4101:
4100:
4091:
4087:
4082:
4079:
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4072:
4067:
4063:
4062:historic name
4059:
4055:
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4030:
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3786:this revision
3782:
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3763:
3762:
3761:
3754:
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3735:
3731:
3726:
3725:Immaterialism
3722:
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3494:
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3458:
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3227:
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3219:
3215:
3211:
3210:Nahum Sokolow
3207:
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2713:
2710:
2709:transclusions
2707:
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2518:
2516:
2512:
2508:
2504:
2501:
2499:
2495:
2491:
2487:
2486:User:Alison/c
2483:
2479:
2477:
2473:
2469:
2464:Pigsonthewing
2460:
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2165:
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2053:
2046:
2043:
2037:
2029:
2027:
2016:
2012:
2010:
2007:
2003:
1999:
1998:Pigsonthewing
1996:
1995:
1994:
1990:
1986:
1981:Pigsonthewing
1977:
1971:
1967:
1964:
1963:
1962:
1954:
1952:
1941:
1938:
1936:
1933:
1928:
1924:
1921:
1920:
1919:
1918:
1914:
1910:
1905:Pigsonthewing
1901:
1895:
1886:
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1880:
1877:
1874:
1873:transclusions
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1737:
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1724:
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1709:
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1700:
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1696:transclusions
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1546:
1542:
1537:Pigsonthewing
1533:
1526:
1522:
1517:Pigsonthewing
1513:
1502:
1499:
1496:
1493:
1490:
1489:transclusions
1487:
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1377:
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1372:
1367:
1363:
1360:
1359:
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1357:
1353:
1349:
1344:Pigsonthewing
1340:
1334:
1325:
1322:
1319:
1316:
1313:
1312:transclusions
1310:
1307:
1304:
1301:
1297:
1293:
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1291:
1290:
1286:
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1234:
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1198:
1195:
1190:
1186:
1183:
1182:
1181:
1180:
1176:
1172:
1167:Pigsonthewing
1163:
1157:
1148:
1145:
1142:
1139:
1136:
1135:transclusions
1133:
1130:
1127:
1124:
1120:
1116:
1115:
1114:
1113:
1109:
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1101:
1096:
1089:
1087:
1083:
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1038:
1033:
1030:
1027:
1026:
1019:
1016:
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1011:
1006:
1002:
999:
998:
997:
996:
992:
988:
979:
976:
973:
970:
967:
966:transclusions
964:
961:
958:
955:
951:
947:
946:
945:
944:
940:
936:
932:
927:
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918:
914:
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903:
902:
898:
890:
888:
884:
879:
873:
872:
869:
864:
860:
855:
851:
848:
846:
842:
838:
834:
830:
827:
825:
821:
817:
813:
810:
808:
804:
800:
796:
793:
791:
787:
783:
778:
775:
774:
771:
767:
763:
759:
756:
755:
752:
748:
744:
737:
730:
727:
726:
710:
706:
702:
698:
694:
686:
680:
679:
678:
677:
674:
671:
670:
666:
664:
663:
653:
643:
638:
637:
636:
635:
632:
628:
624:
620:
616:
611:
607:
603:
599:
594:
593:
592:
591:
588:
584:
580:
576:
572:
570:
566:
565:
564:
563:
560:
556:
552:
548:
547:
546:
545:
542:
538:
534:
529:
525:
524:
523:
522:
519:
515:
511:
507:
504:
502:
498:
494:
487:
477:
467:
460:
457:
455:
447:
445:
433:
427:
423:
419:
413:
408:
407:
406:
403:
402:
397:
396:
391:
390:
389:
388:
385:
381:
377:
373:
368:
365:
362:
359:
358:
356:
353:
352:
349:
346:
344:
340:
336:
332:
329:
327:
324:
319:
314:
311:
307:
304:
303:
299:
297:
296:
288:
287:
286:
281:
277:
273:
269:
265:
260:
257:
253:
250:
249:
245:
243:
242:
235:
231:
228:
227:
226:
223:
222:
218:
216:
215:
208:
205:
203:
198:
194:
190:
186:
182:
177:
176:
172:
171:
170:
169:
166:
165:
160:
159:
148:
145:
142:
139:
136:
135:transclusions
133:
130:
127:
124:
120:
116:
115:
114:
113:
108:
105:
102:
97:
93:
86:
84:
80:
75:
69:
68:
64:
57:
44:
39:
32:
23:
19:
5503:
5500:
5481:
5477:per Pppery.
5474:
5456:
5429:
5402:
5373:
5355:
5346:Andy's edits
5342:Talk to Andy
5333:Andy Mabbett
5324:
5314:
5308:
5302:
5296:
5274:
5262:
5260:
5244:
5241:
5214:
5211:
5192:
5185:
5170:
5138:
5111:
5088:
5083:
5073:
5053:
5035:
5018:
5001:
4991:Andy's edits
4987:Talk to Andy
4978:Andy Mabbett
4942:
4941:
4931:
4925:
4919:
4913:
4895:
4889:
4883:
4877:
4855:
4839:
4837:
4821:
4818:
4791:
4788:
4744:
4711:
4706:
4678:
4677:
4672:
4651:
4621:
4604:
4597:
4583:
4569:
4550:
4541:
4509:
4471:
4470:
4453:
4437:Bingo Palace
4397:
4396:
4373:
4372:
4351:The proposer
4346:
4320:
4319:
4250:
4205:
4182:
4159:
4149:
4117:
4095:
4094:
4089:
4085:
4080:
4061:
4057:
4044:
4012:
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3389:no consensus
3388:
3386:
3370:
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3337:
3321:per Fram. --
3318:
3291:
3239:
3103:
3077:
3073:
3072:, the books
3045:
3041:George Eliot
3036:Isaac Newton
3031:Henry Dunant
2999:
2996:
2986:
2980:
2974:
2968:
2929:
2927:
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2647:
2644:
2617:
2614:
2591:
2582:
2559:
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2490:TonyBallioni
2472:Andy's edits
2468:Talk to Andy
2459:Andy Mabbett
2452:
2422:
2412:
2388:
2374:
2361:
2334:
2333:
2323:
2317:
2311:
2305:
2287:
2281:
2275:
2269:
2239:no consensus
2238:
2236:
2220:
2217:
2190:
2187:
2175:
2169:
2163:
2157:
2136:
2121:
2119:
2103:
2100:
2073:
2070:
2051:
2044:
2025:
1989:Andy's edits
1985:Talk to Andy
1976:Andy Mabbett
1950:
1939:
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1913:Andy's edits
1909:Talk to Andy
1900:Andy Mabbett
1891:
1881:
1875:
1869:
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1832:
1830:
1814:
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1762:
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1736:Andy's edits
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1723:Andy Mabbett
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1541:Talk to Andy
1532:Andy Mabbett
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1352:Andy's edits
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1320:
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1271:
1269:
1253:
1250:
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1175:Andy's edits
1171:Talk to Andy
1162:Andy Mabbett
1153:
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1017:
1000:
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925:
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907:
904:
877:
874:
852:per BD2412.
849:
828:
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797:per BD2412.
794:
776:
760:per BD2412.
757:
728:
691:— Preceding
668:
661:
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614:
609:
605:
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527:
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443:
412:Dennis Brown
400:
395:Dennis Brown
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240:
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158:Dennis Brown
157:
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91:
89:
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70:
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5482:SMcCandlish
5361:67.70.32.97
5193:SMcCandlish
5146:Archive nav
4673:subcategory
4605:SMcCandlish
4514:TerraCyprus
4191:TerraCyprus
4135:TerraCyprus
4118:Merge into
4086:no evidence
4058:former name
4045:Merge into
3869:Senator2029
2810:TerraCyprus
2769:, page 170
2537:SMcCandlish
2052:SMcCandlish
1765:per nom. --
1588:per nom. --
1381:per nom. --
1204:per nom. --
1025:SMcCandlish
850:Strong Keep
812:Strong keep
762:Firestar464
119:Template:OW
63:Template:OW
5462:* Pppery *
5388:Trialpears
5059:Trialpears
3981:Nikumaroro
3959:RAINULATOR
3842:RAINULATOR
2398:* Pppery *
1927:* Pppery *
1750:* Pppery *
1559:* Pppery *
1366:* Pppery *
1189:* Pppery *
1005:* Pppery *
854:P,TO 19104
829:SNOW CLOSE
741:template.
681:Thank you
318:* Pppery *
56:October 17
43:October 18
38:October 16
5509:talk page
5250:talk page
5220:talk page
5089:multiples
4827:talk page
4797:talk page
4627:Thryduulf
4073:on reply)
3673:Rigadoun
3376:talk page
3346:talk page
3323:Guy Macon
3271:See also
2934:WP:NAVBOX
2917:talk page
2887:talk page
2653:talk page
2623:talk page
2583:Weak keep
2524:routinely
2226:talk page
2196:talk page
2109:talk page
2079:talk page
2015:WP:USEFUL
2006:are clear
2002:WP:NOHARM
1970:WP:USEFUL
1966:WP:NOHARM
1925:per nom.
1820:talk page
1790:talk page
1748:per nom.
1643:talk page
1613:talk page
1573:IllaZilla
1557:per nom.
1436:talk page
1406:talk page
1364:per nom.
1259:talk page
1229:talk page
1187:per nom.
1158:in 2015.
1082:talk page
1052:talk page
1020:per nom.
1003:per nom.
913:talk page
883:talk page
837:Guy Macon
743:Opalzukor
579:Guy Macon
573:It is at
533:Guy Macon
376:Guy Macon
290:editors.
79:talk page
5511:or in a
5442:Primefac
5432:Relisted
5405:Relisted
5318:subpages
5252:or in a
5222:or in a
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5114:Relisted
5076:Relisted
5041:Tom (LT)
4935:subpages
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4572:Relisted
4559:𝗍𝗮𝘭𝙠
4152:Relisted
4081:Comment.
4069:(please
4066:ItsPugle
4000:Calcutta
3709:Calcutta
3544:subpages
3508:subpages
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3436:subpages
3393:Primefac
3378:or in a
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3142:Ehdeejay
3082:Torchist
2990:subpages
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2919:or in a
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705:contribs
693:unsigned
604:more by
506:Question
422:𝗍𝗮𝘭𝙠
264:Headbomb
181:Headbomb
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81:or in a
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5374:Comment
5356:Comment
5300:history
5152:prefer
4917:history
4881:history
4371:Added.
3995:Kolkata
3718:Kolkata
3701:Oppose.
3669:Support
3526:history
3490:history
3454:history
3418:history
3304:Techie3
2972:history
2703:history
2309:history
2273:history
2161:history
2013:As for
1972:refer.
1867:history
1690:history
1483:history
1306:history
1129:history
960:history
833:WP:SNOW
598:WP:HUSH
493:Techie3
459:Comment
335:Leijurv
129:history
5267:JJMC89
5263:delete
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4848:JJMC89
4707:Oppose
4622:Oppose
4584:St3095
4225:Certes
4206:highly
3874:“Talk”
3859:Oppose
3688:Certes
3676:(talk)
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3319:Delete
2930:delete
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2836:RL0919
2824:Delete
2764:(list)
2670:JJMC89
2666:delete
2529:WP:NOT
2503:Oppose
2362:Oppose
2137:St3095
2045:Delete
1923:Delete
1833:delete
1763:Delete
1746:Delete
1656:delete
1586:Delete
1555:Delete
1449:delete
1379:Delete
1362:Delete
1272:delete
1202:Delete
1185:Delete
1095:delete
1018:Delete
1001:Delete
987:Gonnym
926:delete
685:BD2412
662:BD2412
481:. But
295:BD2412
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2834:. --
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