Knowledge:Fringe theories/Noticeboard

5077:

including (in the second edition) a nice map detailing features noted for specific 'cults', and their location. A quick perusal of the map will indicate that 'Myth of the cargo' only features in around half of them. Beyond that, Kenelm Burridge (1960) is likewise relatively accessible, and at least some of the more modern material shouldn't tax the untrained reader too much, if said reader isn't overly concerned with understanding the minutiae of some of the academic points being made. You may find some at least of the more modern material a little harder going, fashions regarding appropriate academic style having changed somewhat, but some at least should be accessible to anyone looking for insight at a fairly basic level. Really though, beyond perhaps Worsley as an introduction, I'm not going to recommend a specific reading list, since my entire point is that there is a whole academic 'genre' out there, stretching back for many decades, all writing on the 'cults'. There is a lot to the field, with a whole swathe of ethnographers finding new things to say, and to debate about. If it was all as simple as your popcult version, what would they all have had to write about? Read some. Then read some more. And them come back and tell me that its nothing beyond imitative rituals for attracting western goods....

5284:

we are here arguing over one small aspect of the broader topic that had it been given a less catchy name, would almost certainly never have been the subject of an article at all. If the article had been named 'Millennialist movements in colonial and post-colonial Melanesia' there would be nothing to argue about. An external detail (the label applied by ethnographers) is being fought over, while the movements themselves are being reduced to nothing but data to be used as 'evidence' in this Wikibattle. This is absurd. It is also offensive. Real peoples' lives deserve better than to become nothing but 'data' in a facile argument over a catchy phrase being conducted half the world away. More so, when some in the debate think it legitimate to dive in feet first without bothering to actually engage with the literature for any purpose beyond perpetuating their own preconceptions. If Knowledge can't do better than this, it should seriously consider not attempting to cover such topics at all. TikTok ethnography shouldn't be a thing...

4181:

nobody outside anthropology has done any significant research), a handful of contributors, some at least apparently inspired by a social media post of some kind, have taken on themselves to attempt to redefine the article to only cover a small subset of the movements concerned, and to do so in a manner which promotes a misleading, frankly offensive and frequently objectively false popcult version of events. One which reduces complex behaviour in the realm of religion and politics to nothing beyond irrational imitation, and ignores almost everything that anthropology has had to say on the topic. And in doing so contributors have repeatedly misrepresented sources, concocted fallacious arguments as to why sources should be ignored, and refused to acknowledge that Knowledge policy does not permit contributors to cherry-pick sources and redefine article topics to suit their own ill-informed agenda.

2786:"It confirms that reductionist interpretations were not enough. When the first Cheiry, Salvan and Morin Heights tragedy was discovered, it was noted that this one was atypical in terms of the sociology of the people involved. Normally, in cult cases, we find mostly marginal people, this was not the case with the Solar Temple, where the people involved were cultured and functioned in a more than normal business manner. So the first interpretation was that these people didn't really believe in their religion, this is a front for money laundering. We also talked about the SAC, the secret services and so on. Although it was confirmed that there were links between the sect leaders and the SAC in France, which existed during the time of General de Gaulle, these relationships are not enough to explain the tragedy." 2941:

making comparisons with Waco and Jonestown without noticing what made it different, however among the many criticisms of the media/response to this case this is probably one of the milder ones compared to Campiche or Wessinger for example. He classifies them as similar to a new religious movement but not a new religious movement (instead classing them more along esoteric lines, "new magical movement"), however as described in other sources, no one has really ever agreed as to what the OTS actually was, with pretty much every analyst saying something different. I don't think it's apologism or fringe, to say the least, but IMO reviewing this it further makes it seem implausible given that this work seems to be one of the most well regarded in the topic area.

4321:

of the sequence that might have seen a C-47 landing on a grass strip. All of them. The ones that destroyed 'cargo' as well as the ones that engaged in ritual supposedly intended to 'attract' it (from their ancestors, and not from the USAAF, it should be noted). All of them. Because that is what 'cargo cults' mean to those that study them. If they mean something else to those who would rather not consider the complexities of real human behaviour, but instead reduce it to vacuous sound-bite myths about ignorant brown people, that is their problem not ours. Knowledge is supposed to be promoting knowledge, not perpetuating ignorance based around a literalist popcult interpretation of a phrase that many within anthropology consider to have been ill-chosen.

4653:

note of what he has to say regarding the many ways anthropology has looked at the cults - absolutely none of which have reduced it down to the simplistic 'rituals to attract cargo' essence you are promoting. You are at least correct in stating that "AndyTheGrump believes the definition is more broad". I do, because that is what the sources say. Sources that see explanation - or at least a better understanding - of the events concerned coming about through looking at them as a whole, rather than at one arbitrary facet only found in some of them. Sources including Lindstrom, who you are cherry-picking isolated phrases from, while ignoring the broader discussion. We go by sources.

2681:

high profile journalists like people cited above alleging that actually it wasn't a cult but a front for criminal politicians in France, or that they were all actually killed by the French government in a coverup - to me, this feels far more cult apologetic than any argument I have seen from Introvigne on this topic. The other source says he wrote works that apologized for the OTS, - what work is he specifically accusing of being sympathetic to the OTS? He does not say, I have no clue what this could possibly be referring to as he had never published a book or chapters in books on the OTS prior to the publication of this article.

4297:

offensive, please let me know if/where I have. I think this is an overreaction to the question of whether cargo cults "typically" versus "sometimes" engaged in ritual action in pursuit of cargo, which involves a fairly straightforward look at the sources. I don't believe I have misrepresented sources, nor argued for ignoring any source. I have not cherry-picked, as these sources are already the two most cited sources on the page, and they're well-sourced summaries written by subject matter experts. You've called me ill-informed a few times, I would appreciate help in becoming more informed.

2922:

the rise of Independent Neo-Templarism right up to the position of neo-Templarism after the 1970s is extremely useful and he manages to explain an enormously complicated process of evolution in a way which is a model of clarity. I would go so far as to say that Introvigne’s ‘setting’ of the OST and his step by step outline of the process of neo-Templar development is a ‘must read’ for anyone wishing to research this area or for anyone who wants to gain a better understanding as to why Dan Brown’s Da Vinci Code was simply one other franchise of the business which is neo-Templarism.

4871:

instead engage in 'research' by cherry-picking, in order to perpetuate your ill-informed perspective, rather than doing what Knowledge requires: which is to put some effort into reading the god-damned sources, and only after you are familiar with the topic, as seen through multiple sources, then start looking for a way to summarise them. You don't start with the conclusion and cobble together dubious 'evidence' to back it up. Read first. Write second. And expect to take a few days over it (or a year or two maybe if you really want to gain any insight): it is a complex topic.

2900:

pages of any Knights Templar page on this website complaining that no one believes them and that you can only listen to True Templar Historians). In any case it predates the 1995 deaths so is definitely not whatever alleged defense is mentioned above, since it does not discuss any psychological aspects in either a promotional or refutational manner. It is also one of the most cited individual works on the OTS (Mayer 1998 has it beat, and I think Hall & Schuyler 2000). Every work I've seen discussing that chapter/article seems to praise it, see:

6025:

especially when it's relating to an earlier idea or something real.) Also it's not even always possible to be sure if the person knew it was false even when we know the person. But perhaps most significantly, in some cases even if the originator actually believed the claim to be true, most of the people spreading and amplifying the message may know it's untrue. Is it really right to consider it a conspiracy theory instead of a hoax in that case? I do think Bon courage's suggestion of misinformation could be useful for the cat-eating thing

2906:

Masonic world is also a mirror, reflecting anxieties of the everyday outer world. Thus, whenever the Masons surface in the news, fact and rumor and belief are quickly woven into contradictory conspiracy theories. Tracing the arrows on Massimo Introvigne’s chart, one can easily imagine DiMambro rubbing shoulders with members of the Mafia, the Italian Masonic lodge P2, and the private Gaullist police organization, Service d’Action Civique. On the other hand, there is no proof for any of these connections.

4825:... the modal cargo cult was an agitation or organised social movement of Melanesian villagers in pursuit of ‘cargo’ by means of renewed or invented ritual action that they hoped would induce ancestral spirits or other powerful beings to provide. Typically, an inspired prophet with messages from those spirits persuaded a community that social harmony and engagement in improvised ritual (dancing, marching, flag-raising) or revived cultural traditions would, for believers, bring them cargo. 2160: 5185:

In this map, the legend says that the square indicates "Myth of the Cargo", and other symbols (circles, lines, arcs, triangles) indicate other beliefs/rituals/behaviors. It also appears that there isn't a single symbol per each group, but rather up to two (e.g. all seven of the groups plotted on page 78 have two symbols). I have counted the cults with "Myth of the Cargo" and without. On page 78, I see 5 with, and 2 without. On page 79, in order to keep count I

4761:

narrative. The actual 'cults' (if the term is valid at all, which is currently the subject of anthropological debate) were much more complex, and more much interesting, and best understood by looking at the details, including the differences amongst them, Our readers are best served by learning about this complexity, and this debate, rather than having some TikTok soundbite version imposed on them. Knowledge is not a platform for the perpetuation of ignorance.

4548:

During and after World War II, these movements gained a high international profile, and anthropologists explained them as a universal type of millenarian movement. By the 1970s and 1980s, anthropologists began to emphasize that they were grounded in the cultural creativity and assertiveness of local societies in response to social changes brought by modernization and globalization. Many cargo movements still exist, as political organizations or in churches.

3226: 4063:. I don't think it's fair to take only the second part of the sentence, because when you read the whole sentence it says that the term was borrowed then used in an overly broad way. I would be okay with saying "Some Australian journalists and anthropologists borrowed the term to mean almost any sort of organized ...", but it's misleading to say quote only the second half of the sentence, and I definitely don't agree that this 8122:

it's just another Qanon, where high level government officials just start spouting fiction. Alternatively, they might just be talking about something non-fringe, either novel technology or natural phenomenon, and it's getting washed a way in the oceans of fringe fandom. I honestly don't know, I try to stick to the 1940 and 50s. It's a topic we should cover, but what a difficult needle to thread!

4316:

acting in reaction to complex outside forces - economic, religious, and political - in an an attempt to reassert some level of autonomy. In as much as 'cargo' was ever involved, it needs to be understood as a symbol for what the movements were motivated by - a desire to upturn the social order. Reducing this a a just-so story about people building mock airfields to attract aeroplanes

4862:. Not that one even needs to do that to realise that ethnographic documentation of the 'cults' has never been based around the arbitrary distinction you are attempting to impose on the article. The source you insist on cherry-picking a phrase from goes into great detail regarding the differing perspectives and understandings that ethnography has offered regarding the 'cults'. What 2771:"After the second suicide wave of Sun Temple members, in 1995 in Cheiry, Switzerland, Introvigne declared that they had acted of their own free will. The victims' act was said to have been motivated by desire for union with the departed leaders, who were already living in their new home on Sirius. He rejected the idea that psychological manipulation may also have been involved." 4675:), you have done this zero times. The abstract of Lindstrom (2018) clearly states that cargo cults typically engaged in ritual in pursuit of cargo, which was typically western goods. Where exactly in Lindstrom (2018) are you getting this overall "vibe" that that isn't actually true? If your definition requires reading between the lines, well, then that sounds like 5229:

of whether they involved any 'Myth of the Cargo'. That was the scope of his book. The 'cults', not a subset of them that fits your preferred oversimplification. The Knowledge article is about 'cargo cults' as a topic defined by the sources, not by you. The exact percentage of 'cults' that concerned themselves with 'cargo' in any way is neither hear nor there.

5743:. When I tried to fix it (the sentence is also just incredibly awkward due to difficulty of shoehorning weasel-wording into the first sentence) it was reverted. This article could probably use more focused attention overall anyway; if it has degenerated to the point where the first sentence is this bad, I would expect similar issues throughout the body. -- 4396:

merely adopted new beliefs (rather than being new religions). Then you reiterate that "cargo cults" as a term refers to all millennialist movements in Melanesia, not just those relating to cargo. The cited sources do not support your position here, as I covered earlier in this post. For the rest, my honest read is that this is verging on

4057:‘Cargo cult’ quickly spread through Australian academia and beyond as anthropologists and journalists borrowed the term to label almost any sort of organised, village-based social movement with religious and political aspirations—movements that were increasingly on the colonialist and academic radar throughout Melanesia, as elsewhere. 3898:

doomsday) cults who often had little in common. Several people on the talkpage are insisitng that the popular conception/stereotype of cargo cults should stated as factual, contrary to recent academic literature on the topic. Given the limited participation on the talkpage so far, outside input would be appreciated. Thanks.

4269:. In other words, Lindstrom (1993) is about how Western accounts viewed and wrote about cargo cults, it doesn't actually describe "Melanesian realities". Therefore, I don't think we can cite it to cast doubt on Melanesian realities. We can and should still cite it of course to describe how cargo cults were misreported 5325:

think is foundational, where is the disconnect here? You say that the topic is defined by the sources, I also say that the topic is defined by the sources. I say: the issue is that I'm actually quoting cited sources, while you're referencing your general recollection of the overall literature. The former passes

7611:. As it happens, I talked with Schumer's staff about the thing and the response was one of "no one really expects it to be strictly enforceable". Makes you wonder why they wasted their time with it, but I suppose lots of weirder stuff ends up becoming law, it's just not the subject of tabloid obsessions. 7629:. Thousands of laws exist in hundreds of countries. So what? If there are any examples of this law actually being applied in an important/significant way (that is, if its application is reported by reliable, secondary sources), then fine, it might merit an article. But it sure looks like an example of 8121:

I've been dreading this, but we do at some point need to cover the fact that some pretty important people in the US government have started spreading unsubstantiated claims about 'objects in the sky where we don't know exactly what they are' and 'can't explain how they move'. One possibility is that

6446:

You should focus on content on this noticeboard, not contributors. This means that an editor's username is very unlikely to be relevant in any case. If you have behavioral concerns and there is a possibility of doxxing, you can privately email an admin about them. Wrt the first part of your question,

6377:

concerns mean that we should make it as clear as possible that it is false. So we should do a survey of the things the sources call it, then, assuming there's no one obvious common name, we should choose one of the options that makes its falseness as clear as possible, or invent a neutral descriptive

5386:

An external detail (the label applied by ethnographers) is being fought over, while the movements themselves are being reduced to nothing but data to be used as 'evidence' in this Wikibattle. This is absurd. It is also offensive. Real peoples' lives deserve better than to become nothing but 'data' in

5298:

Can we latch onto and lock in this one point of agreement? That every single source, all three of the sources I already cited, and now the map that you brought up, agree that "more often than not", cargo cults engaged in rituals in pursuit of cargo? Even if this map included cults more generally, not

5283:

There is an element of absurdity in this whole debate. Relatively few people get to read the ethnography of Melanesia. Knowledge has little to say on the subject as a whole. But due to nothing more than the questionable use of a shorthand phrase, and the subsequent just-plain-wrong popcult retelling,

5233:

This isn't an article about what people think that phrase ought to mean. It is an article about a topic from Melanesian ethnography, which, rightly or wrongly, chose to apply a two-word phrase as shorthand to cover the topic as a whole. We write about topics as defined by the sources. We don't impose

4982:

this began? We don't dispute that cargo cults followed Western colonization (that's what the current lede sentence says), the problem is just that I suggested it was after WW2, and while WW2 was obviously a large cause of cargo cults, there were some that had happened due to prior colonization in the

4870:

Nobody who had actually made the slightest effort to research the topic before engaging in the discussion could possibly have come up with such drivel. It is completely, utterly, and hopelessly wrong. But having failed to get that ridiculous fairy tale into the article, you have apparently chosen to

4760:

occurring over many decades, only some of which involve 'pursuit of cargo', even metaphorically, and some of which actively rejected what little of it was already present. Knowledge promotes itself as an encyclopaedia, not a source of popcult 'definitions' constructed to suit an ill-informed external

4756:. Article ledes are supposed to summarise an article. Articles are supposed to be based on what the relevant sources have to say, in due proportion. And absolutely none of these sources engage in the sort of facile reductionism being promoted here. Instead, they are describing a whole slew of complex 4340:

written by a subject matter expert, which is the most cited source in the article today. I also looked at Otto (2009), the second most cited source, and found more agreement. You have "pointed this out" repeatedly, and blustered that it's supported by the sources, but I have clearly explained (see on

3789:

Even on pseudoscientific topics, which invite controversy and strong emotions, the encyclopedia is surprisingly good. This is in part due to the work done by Guerilla Skepticism on Knowledge, ensuring that these pages fall on the side of the evidence and not wishful thinking. (In the interest of full

3699:

No, "cunning folk" is both the contemporaneous and current scholarly term used to refer to what were essentially folk magic practitioners in the era immediately following Christianity's writ-large declaration that magic was heretical. They also practiced folk medicine and other arts. There's a little

2899:

With regard to this source, it mostly amounts to a theological background on the OTS with regard to "Neo-Templarism" (a group of esotericists who larp to this day as a continuation of the Knights Templar because some guy lied and said he found a secret document in 1805; you will find them on the talk

5463:

My intent with making this FTN post was not for the talkpage conversation to move here, but an invitation for others to participate in the talkpage discussion. I agree that the back and forth here is not productive. There are currently only 4 people participating in the talkpage discussion, which is

5324:

Can you appreciate that my response is: "right back at you"? I'm painstakingly trying to delineate what's a cargo cult, what attributes did cargo cults typically have, etc with specific quotes from Lindstrom (2018), Otto (2009), and Vivanco (2018). You and I have failed to agree on this point that I

5071:

The Knowledge cargo cult article currently cites 34 sources. I won't claim to have read them all, but I've certainly read a significant portion of them. Along with further material on the topic, not cited in the article. Lindstrom (2018) cites a considerable number of sources too. If you want to get

4320:

offensive. It is also mind-bogglingly wrong when describing events first documented in the latter part of the 19th century. Anthropology, in discussing the particulars of millennialist movements in Melanesia, chose to label these movements 'cargo cults'. All of them. Not just the few at the tail-end

4315:

pointed out, the ethnographic literature makes it entirely clear that far from being focussed around attracting western goods through ritual, a significant proportion of the 'cults' either actively abandoned/destroyed such goods, or simply didn't concern themselves with them. There were real people,

4180:

This dispute is based around a fundamental misunderstanding of how Knowledge articles are supposed to be structured. Rather than accepting that the scope of an article should be based on that defined by academic sources (which for the 'cults', are essentially exclusively those of anthropology, since

3463:

found evidence of a genealogical relationship buried in the signal of millenia of areal convergence. And NB this minority is not a bunch of linguistic flat-earthers engaging in mass comparison ala Greenberg (that's one of the piss-poor popular myths echoed in certain Reddit and YouTube bubbles). "It

3138:

to justify some heavy-duty field work which could, of course, have a multitude of environmental factors behind it. But broadly I agree, I tried removing some of the links to Tricycle which is a Buddhist magazine. As a source Tricycle often points to academic secondary sources which'd have no problem

2973:

I'm inclined to agree with Parakanyaa that this material doesn't read as apologetics, and from the quotations in Parakanyaa's comment it seems like reliable sources don't think Introvigne's work on the topic is fringe or apologetic either. CESNUR and Introvigne get called cult advocates on Knowledge

2905:

Religious movement scholar Massimo Introvigne has valiantly attempted to trace the lines of schism and fusion among these groups (1995). The task is not a simple one, for the history of concrete events has become mixed with imaginary history. Here, the wall of secrecy surrounding the enchanted inner

8684:

Last year Newman turned up on Knowledge on an account and several IP addresses to put his paper on the article. It was explained at the time that as his paper was not peer reviewed or published in a reliable source it can't be cited on Knowledge. Instead of listening to this advice, the user turned

8167:

source, but digging around all over for assets for this article, I found plenty of remarks by involved politicians that this would be introduced repeatedly until all provisions were law, implying not just back to back years, but three in a row should it fail. Will we complain about the article when

6614:

I'm uncertain here how to modify this article, as there are seemingly no sources at all that get into criticism of this UAPDA law itself that get into critcisms of it related to the fact it... well, revolves around "UFOs" and "UAP". Any criticisms that I have found of the law are related to matters

6338:

It looks to me like we're having that conversation here (and at the RfC), which is the appropriate thing to do –– so it's good that you brought it here but I don't think resolving once and for all which principles to favor over others will be feasible or consistent with policy. I agree with Endwise

6302:

I think the issue in this specific case is that the person who created the rumour, the writer of the Facebook post, apparently believed it to be true. Which I think means it misses the intentional deception part of a "hoax". Most RS call it a baseless/debunked/false rumour/claim, which is accurate,

5595:

There's a public misconception that Penny's claims that Koko could communicate effectively with sign language was a real thing, rather than somewhere on a spectrum of "self-delusion" to "absolute bunk". I've tried doing a substantial rewrite of the introduction to the article to remove a lot of the

5309:

engaged in rituals in pursuit of cargo", it seems actually extremely pertinent. My concern this entire time is that the current lede hedges, waffles, and fence-sits, to the point where it says virtually nothing of substance. One key issue is that it doesn't even say that cargo cults more often than

5228:

I wrote 'around half' intentionally. I certainly wasn't suggesting that we cite the map. Instead, I was indicating that Worsley's book (which more than anything else was responsible for bringing the term 'cargo cult' to popular attention) concerned itself with 'cults' as he defined them, regardless

5184:

Regardless, I'm curious about this map so I'll play along. I'm looking at the map of New Guinea that's spread between pages 78 and 79 (it's hard to give a physical page number, but it's after "Theoretical Considerations" physical page LXIX and before "Preface to the First Edition" physical page 9).

4652:

Anyone remotely familiar with the appropriate citation of academic sources will know that you don't 'cite abstracts'. You cite a document as a whole, and expect to have to justify what you say about the source according to what the entire document says. And any honest reading of Lindstrom will take

2684:

These are two vague passing newspaper mentions. You are accusing a BLP of defending mass homicide - the sourcing is not good enough to back this up, especially that to my knowledge there has not been a single extensive reliable source on the OTS published in the past thirty years that does not cite

2680:

The media coverage of the OTS case was a mess, with otherwise reputable outlets printing garbage conspiracy theories such as high profile celebrities secretly being members, secret theories of US president involvement like Clinton and Jimmy Carter being peddled by otherwise respectable outlets, and

6086:

In a stunning admission, Republican vice-presidential candidate JD Vance said he is willing “to create stories” on the campaign trail while defending his spreading false, racist rumors of pets being abducted and eaten in a town in his home state of Ohio. ... Asked by CNN host Dana Bash whether the

5094:

It should not have taken thirteen back-and-forths for you to point to any source to back up your claims. Even still, you're pointing to books that are 389 pages and 296 pages respectively, and you're also saying that there's so much more to it that you can't point to a specific 'reading list'. Can

3119:

Let me rephrase the specific thing I'm reading in that: When researchers go in to work with minority communities around religious belief, it's generally considered extremely poor form to go "We measured it and the religion is fundamentally wrong". So what I'm reading in there is an acknowledgement

3088:

I think the distinction being drawn here is that Tibetan Buddhism (and Buddhism more broadly) makes claims about consciousness independent of it being purely a function of brain activity, a hedge the papers seem like they're trying to recognize in the superimposition of a specific worldview onto a

2921:

Massimo Introvigne presents a masterly overview of the neo-Templar tradition and places the OST within it, explaining how its worldview offered both continuity and discontinuity with the predominant characteristics of the tradition. Introvigne’s treatment of the development of neo-Templarism, from

8207: 7654:

Can we possibly not communicate by acronym? It seems unhelpful. How is the article "too soon", when I even went to my own trouble of specifically dating every single reference I added, and I have there from 2023-06-27 to 2024-06-12? Are 34 references spanning an entire calendar year from 29 or so

6766:

exist, not all of them notable. I think that this particular law is borderline in its notability. One problem we have with fringe theories is that sometimes "News of the Weird" allows them to get undue attention in ways that don't quite align to what we would require for NPOV. Explicit experts on

6221:

100% agreed on this point. Wherever there is doubt about what to call something, we always look to and follow the sources. I don't see anyone arguing that we should amend the guideline to say anything different. My point is simply that following the sources may involve summarizing or paraphrasing

5348:

write about Melanesian religious movements at an article about Melanesian religious movements, rather than shoehorning them into a different article, under a name that apparently is not used by the field, and instead let that one be about the idea of a "cargo cult" at the article about the phrase

4547:

A term originally from Melanesia that refers to a social movement during the nineteenth and twentieth centuries throughout the South Pacific in which native prophets promised the imminent arrival of ‘cargo’, or manufactured goods and money, if local people were to purify and harmonize themselves.

3334:

works, and you're right in your objection that it does appear a bit odd to appeal to consensus. That said, for academic topics where it requires specialist knowledge to know that the general public's understanding is patently wrong, I worry that your description points to how Knowledge handles it

3089:

spiritual framework that exists independently of a Western academic tradition in light of the context of their field work. The edited in section seems to be alluding to, but I don't really think that people should be taking those hedges to make naturalistic arguments about theological worldviews.

2940:

None of these indicate apologism, and I would be very surprised if anyone came away from reading this article with a view to the apologetic, given that it candidly discusses the mass murder they committed and their series of crimes committed prior. It criticizes the media for being "reductive" in

2789:

This is in line with the sourcing. It is a point of discussion in many of the sources that the victims of the group were very rich and influential and not the typical cult victim profile, in which they were easily taken advantage of. That does not appear to be any more than that, which is said in

7496:

The only reference to biological now is a single quotation from the laws own verbiage. What policy says a derivative topic under the main topic of an article (a Federal law) has any need for exterpise to define that term? I know you linked "FRINGE" before, but be reasonable and cite the explicit

4515:

I "cherry picked", perhaps forgetting that Lindstrom (2018) is the existing most cited source on the article). Whereas you've quoted cited sources zero times, instead loudly insisting the sources are on your side. We are yet to see that, so why should we trust your personal POV over the reliable

4440:

I see no point whatsoever in trying to discuss this further with you, given your absurd suggestion that I am engaging in 'activism'. Insistence that Knowledge bases the scope of articles on that of the sources cited isn't activism, it is rooted at the very core of Knowledge policy. Your repeated

4028:

I took it to NPOVN a few months ago when the dispute originally flared up, but there was little response as far as I could tell. I think part of the problem is that it's easy to see "cargo cults" as this abstract concept, but in reality "cargo cults" are an umbrella label used to lump together a

4013:

that we agree is high quality, it clearly says in the abstract that cargo cults actually typically did do these things. What do you make of this? I would agree that the lede should avoid feeding racially charged stereotypes and such, but it also shouldn't hedge to the point of meaninglessness. I

2676:

I do not know what Garde possibly could have meant by "intervention"; there was no intervention, everyone was dead, no one was brought to trial except Tabachnik - Tabachnik was not found guilty in any case, and Introvigne was not to my awareness involved in the trial. What could he have possibly

2622:

CESNUR is a group founded by Massimo Introvigne, widely described as an advocacy group for controversial new religious movements, if not a group of "cult apologists". In 1995, CESNUR authors received funding from Aum Shinrikyo and delivered a report declaring the group innocent of the Sarin gas

4989:

With respect to the pre-WW2 vs post-WW2 angle, you're treating this like a fatal flaw, but I have no problem accepting that Western colonization of Melanesia began before WW2, or accepting that the earliest cargo cults happened at that time, or accepting that the religions existed all along and

4395:

4230:(big if) you take as definition the broadest pop culture overuse of "cargo cult", it becomes essentially equal to "new religious movement in Melanesia". I dispute that the lede of the article should center that definition. Rather, we should use a definition given in the highest quality academic 4199:

in Melanesia". I'm not saying that no "cargo cults" engaged in ritual action for material goods, but what has to be kept in mind is that many of the accounts of "cargo cults" reported by anthropologists were based accounts by colonial administrators and missionaries, who wished to present these

3897:

article has been subject to a lot of disputes over the last several months, due to popular (mis)conception of cargo cults being about building landing strips for airplanes to get material goods being worlds apart from the anthropological reality of a bunch of quite different Melanesian (largely

3458:

works good if we choose the right sources by the right people. In the case of Altaic, it's simple, just cite well-mannered mainstream critics of Altaic like Georg and Janhunen, and you'll get a simple proposition that only takes someone better that me in phrasing it stylistically well. It goes:

2717:

Additionally, I own almost every book about the OTS, and while there is a source that dedicates about a half page to complaining about him it doesn't accuse him of apologizing for them, which given this source's goals (aggressively attacking everyone who agrees with the official conclusions) it

6889:

The article is extensively sourced; and I want to do the 'good faith' thing, but I am suspecting you are dragging things out here for some end that I cannot see? If you have concerns on the notability please nominate it for deletion. At present I begin to grow concerned at the unwillingness to

2913:

As Massimo Introvigne (1995) has shown in great detail, the origins of independent neo-Templarism can be traced to Bernard-Raymond Fabré-Palaprat (1773-1838), who in 1805 proclaimed himself Grand Master of the Templar Order. During the 1950s, French esotericist Jacques Breyer and later Raymond

7452:

You need people who understand the claims to characterize the claim. Necessarily experts. If the only people commenting on a fringe theory are adherents and non-experts, then there is no way for us to characterize the claim properly. For example, when someone claims to have a perpetual motion

6024:

I think an obvious problem with concentrating only on the originator is we don't even always know who the originator is and in some cases it may not even be one person. (For certain stuff, it's easily possible multiple people independently spread the idea not having heard it from anyone else,

5076:

is as good a starting point as any, for someone not familiar with ethnographic writing: it is dated, and by modern standards some of the language used is likely to be considered questionable, but it has the merits of being an entertaining read, as well as being relatively accessible overview,

4866:

synthesis however (if not outright 'making stuff up') is the sort of nonsense you were trying to force into the article only a couple of days ago: "Cargo cult is a term that refers to an oversimplified view of the cults and religious movements that sprung up around and reacted to World War II

4637:

as definition for "cargo cult". AndyTheGrump believes the definition is more broad, including all Melanesian religious movements regardless of if they had anything to do with cargo, and therefore he doesn't agree that we can say that cargo cults typically engaged in ritual in pursuit of cargo

3213:

This is something that comes up a heck of a lot in both physics and linguistics articles, and I don't know if there's actually an avenue for something like this on Knowledge, but I do feel there needs to be. I had a thought that either a mainspace or talk page template could be useful to help

2629:

In 2001, French journalist Serge Garde accused CESNUR of "systematic interventions in favor of sects brought to justice", naming Jehovah's Witnesses, Scientology, Order of the Solar Temple, the Unification Church and Aum Shinrikyo and opined that "all the sects know they can count on CESNUR"

4296:

Hello Andy, I don't believe I've done any of these things. I'm scoping using the article's existing academic sources (Lindstrom (2018), Otto (2009)), not "popcult" (see my last post ^). I don't recall seeing any recent social media posts about cargo cults. I apologize if I have said anything

3717:

Commented on talk, but I can also reply here. I should have been more precise in my initial comment. "Cunning folk" is not universally euphemistic, only in this context: the title of an article about early Mormonism. In this context and this context alone, "cunning folk" is a revisionist

4074:

that they hoped would induce ancestral spirits or other powerful beings to provide. Typically, an inspired prophet with messages from those spirits persuaded a community that social harmony and engagement in improvised ritual (dancing, marching, flag-raising) or revived cultural traditions

3704:

and I'm not actually familiar with exactly how Mormonism approaches it but "cunning folk" is actually likely going to be the more general scholarly term as it applies to a Western magical tradition than just "folk magic", which imprecisely limits the cunning folk to only one of their arts.

8172:

for confirmation? I honestly and truly understand if the article needs adjusting--I've yanked out over 20k of material from my initial draft and another 14k and counting today. But I cannot find a single reasonable or logical way this fails to pass any notability metric we have. None! --

6334:

Generally, article titles are based on what the subject is called in reliable sources. When this offers multiple possibilities, editors choose among them by considering several principles: the ideal article title precisely identifies the subject; it is short, natural, distinguishable and

5360:

This isn't an article about the two words 'cargo cult'. This isn't an article about what people think that phrase ought to mean. It is an article about a topic from Melanesian ethnography, which, rightly or wrongly, chose to apply a two-word phrase as shorthand to cover the topic as a

3274:

It also could be the source of edit warring or fights in its own right, which could be a possible problem. Also, I tried minimizing where this template is picked up with noinclude tags but if someone sees that I've accidentally templated something in FTN please help me clean it up!

5596:

popular press treating Koko's communicative abilities as fact, but now there's a disconnect between the first few paragraphs and the rest of the article. Some other eyes on this could be helpful, as this is definitely one of those topics that the public's perception of reality is

4691:

I reject your proposal to engineer your own personal definition from your own personal reading and interpretation and summary of Lindstrom. Why exactly should we discard the abstract, which is Lindstrom's summary of Lindstrom, and instead use AndyTheGrump's summary of Lindstrom?

8158:

is already complying substantially. As far as I can tell every provision except the UAP Review Board and it's subpoena powers and the eminent domain portion passed and is law effective January 1, 2024. This is not a controversial or divisive position, it's simply fact, like the

8043:

What it confirms is you are behind... look at the article history and how much I just cut, including that URL you linked, which was part of the original Background section that I completely erased. Take a look at the article, which is even stronger now. All good, please look at

5444:'s "anthropological reality" suggests that the presentation is towards a valid and current concept within anthropology. Taking Lindstrom in isolation that might the biggest fringe concern with the article, especially considering his most recent "Postmortem" chapter where he is 4238:

says it was typical. I don't dispute that there have been biased accounts who wanted to paint cargo cults as a morality tale / fable in order to convey some lesson, or biased in the direction of simple racism. We should take care to avoid pushing such messages. But it would be

5448:

of the term and concept. If i recall the last time this came up Hemiauchenia said something about expanding the body content. Kind of hard to do tho when all the effort goes into arguing over the first paragraph. This discussion should probably move to the article talk page.

7606:

a law exists. I have a much harder time when we go into details considering the way laws do or do not ultimately end up mattering. In this instance, we do have a few sources which have reported on the law, but none really have addressed certain fundamental points of fact

4970:. And I'm not cherry picking from a source, but rather citing three high quality academic sources, Lindstrom (2018), Otto (2009), and now Vivanco (2018). With respect to the first sentence that I proposed a few days ago, that's not my latest proposal, which you can find 8681:. Much of what he wrote is valid about the blue zones open to clerical errors and pension fraud. The blue zones concept is largely a marketing scam based on errors and credulity and the claims of longevity of remarkable age records have been questioned by academics. 6922:

Your comment here, to be honest, makes no sense. It's an article about a factually existing law, with 40-50+ sources (I could have gotten more if I wanted to 'pad' it, which I had no need to), discussed in multiple mainstream sources. The entire article is about the

5651:

based on the premise that that the article "contains bias towards critical scholarship"; the main objection seems to be to the fact that mainstream academics aren't being given even ground with evangelical views of Genesis. Either way, the article is getting fairly

7305:? You seem to have said that experts are required to be cited in an article where a given subject is discussed, such as if a law covers "non-human intelligence" or any other thing? Would I need to find nuclear experts to cite to weigh in on the legal issues around 4829:

As far as Melanesia is concerned, the cargo cult concept highlights a range of millenarian ideas, cults, and movements that originated in the wake of Western colonization and, more often than not, involved a strong concern with the acquisition of Western goods—the

4733:

page though. And, if the thing we're looking for is a basic definition of a term, wouldn't an abstract be a good place to look? Especially since it's an encyclopedia entry, like the one that Fiveby linked. (specifically, the content that I'm trying to support with

4103:

4858:: "Neutrality requires that mainspace articles and pages fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in those sources." Summarising the content of multiple sources is 5141:

that clearly state that the myth of the cargo was present "more often than not" (Otto 2009) and that it was "modal" and "typical" (Lindstrom 2018) and that it was simply part of the definition of cargo cult (Vivanco 2018). That is my claim - exactly what these

4067:

the term cargo cult in general. Rather than taking the second half of a sentence (whose first half undermines its utility as a definition), why not take the abstract of this article? It specifically talks about the modal cargo cult, here it is (emphasis mine):

7681:

insufficient? The number of references doesn't matter when they still don't demonstrate significant independent coverage of the topic—as opposed to primary documents and references for secondary claims that don't specifically mention the article topic at all.

3953:

RSN is about discussing the reliability of sources, but I don't thinkt that the reliability of any particular source is really the focus of the current dispute at the cargo cult talkpage. If you think that FTN is a canvassing board, then you should take it to

4106:

So, yes, "cargo cult" (the term) has been used broadly, but that's a misleading quote and the abstract does actually give the typical characteristics of a cargo cult. And yes, cargo can mean other things, but "typically" or "often" it was actually Western

3971:, and I agree that it is tricky. Many groups lumped into the "cargo cult" label by anthropologists don't necessarily fall under tha classic "ritual action for material goods" cargo cult framework, which makes writing about this topic enormously difficult. 3184:

I’m a rock guy more than anything else, so by all means edit away at that article, I’ve already removed a lot of the explicitly Buddhist sources being used to discuss the underlying data collection. I’m not defending the state of the article by any means.

4033:, which notably makes no mention of any sort of cargo, or even prophets or ritual action), and it's important not to lose sight of that. It's also important not to lose sight of the fact that Lindstrom notes that "cargo" in the anthropological literature 6303:

but all makes for an awful title. It does appear some RS call it a hoax, but IMO I think they're being a bit clumsy when they do that. All that aside though, "hoax" makes for a much better title than "debunked rumour", so I don't really have a solution.

2774:

Also this article contains a very blatant factual error - the second suicide wave was in a forest in France, not in Switzerland (Cheiry was the location of the initial wave), which further makes me doubt its accuracy. I think this may be in reference to

3459:

everybody agrees that the Altaic languages form a sprachbund, and most mainstream historical linguistics agree that there is no compelling evidence to assume they're anything else, while a minority is still struggling to convince the majority that they

3169:

Writing about this topic properly is really challenging due to a lack of non-credulous non-Buddhist sources discussing the topic. I share jps concerns that Frontiers is a low quality journal publisher, particularly for medical-related claims like this.

7830:

If there are notability concerns, perhaps we should get to the point and nominate it for deletion? Are you both looking at the same article, which has a huge number of unique sources from unique mainstream notable venues all talking about the law? --

4441:

attempts, however, to shoehorn a facile narrow popcult definition of a complex topic into the article lede most definitely constitutes PoV pushing. Feel free to raise my alleged 'activism' elsewhere if you like, but I'd recommend a careful reading of

8187:

I think we're on the path to a fine article. "Unidentified Aerial Phenomenon" sounds very "X-Files" until you point out Chinese Spy Balloons are UAP, and then a light goes off and you realize it's not about Mulder and Scully, it's about Beijing.

3962:

I don't think it will be very effective. People are free to draw their own conclusions from the discussion. I asked an uninvolved person who is an expert in adjacent topics (Austronesier) and they seem to agree with my and Andy's perspective (see

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No recognizable EEG waveforms were discernable in any of these tukdam cases, thus we failed to find support for the hypothesis of residual brain activity following the cessation of cardiorespiratory function in tukdam cases recorded beyond 26 h

8025:

Rather confirms it's just reportage with little or anything that is the "analysis, evaluation, interpretation, or synthesis of the facts, evidence, concepts, and ideas" that we look for in secondary sources. Clicking at random on your list I

6357:

yeah, the RFC is more about that specific article's title though ... this was more about considering cases where we don't have a clear common name or there are other titling problems so we don't have to have the same discussions over and

6604:"The fact that this stuff is so WP:FRINGE as to be eye-rolled at by the relevant scientific community is an important point to get across to readers and the article does not sufficiently do that. Please fix prior to removing the tag." 6926:

Just because the law says something, do we have a policy-based reason to somehow or in some way 'challenge' the law? If so, I will need to see a direct URL to a specific section of a specific policy, because that seems... patently

4349:

Western goods. I have provided numerous quotes and analysis to support this, it's quite straightforward. Yes, I have no doubt many Melanesian religious movements had nothing to do with cargo of any kind, as you say, it's just that

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As I said, it's totally possible that I'm ill informed. Perhaps I should simply ask: in your reading of these sources, do you think that the "pop culture understanding" is something that didn't actually happen in real life?

5478:

My first comment probably unproductively extended this thread. Was going to suggest on the talk page a moratorium on arguing "cargo" in the lead while the body content is expanded, but i've used up all of my WP time today.

4913:

we had multiple sources at hand that presented different viewpoints on the specific question of how often was it really for cargo cults to engage in ritual in pursuit of cargo, well, then we could have a discussion about

2858:

You might want to look again at the authors, publishers, and the "cult wars" dates of these opinion pieces and reevaluate if that is careful use. Introvigne could have and probably did make other statements, but here is:

1228: 3271:, but when a topic gets esoteric enough it actually would be extremely helpful to be able to point to some past discussions on this. It would also potentially empower inexpert users to spot bad edits more consistently. 6185: 5189:

with Y or N, I see 28 with, and 21 without. So New Guinea's total is 33 with, 23 without. Next, on page 80, the General Map has the zoomed out view showing 3 without, however, these are not in Melanesia, they're on the

4467:. Yes, Knowledge articles are based on reliable sources. And so I've quoted high quality academic reliable sources written by subject matter experts like Lindstrom (2018) over a dozen times in this discussion, here are 7956: 6890:

explicitly say what parts of the article are "NPOV" problems--a complaint has no validity unless it has merit, correct? Provide something actionable or do we remove the template for having been adding incorrectly? --

5436:, this is mostly just a fight over the first paragraph of the article correct? I've only read Lindstrom here, but his work is pretty hard to square with that content. Of course the second paragraph does go on to state 5351:

There is a fundamental tension between "this is an article about cargo cults" and "this is an article about Millenialist movements in Melanesia". Right now, that tension is unresolved, hence why I originally called it

8000: 7025:

So the law is quite literally as written, "if such things are true, the public is now legally required to be informed," and that's it. The simple existence/reporting of such a law as an article, that trivially passes

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The important thing for me is that our policy and guideline pages support each other, and not conflict. Since multiple P&G pages say we should defer to sources, I am reluctant to have this page not say the same.

5887:

New article devoted to a small part of the US Defense Authorization bill of interest to UFO enthusiasts, showcases the notion that the US accepts the existence of UFOs controlled/created by "non human intelligence".

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mitigate some slow-burn edit wars on topics which get too esoteric, and obviously anything declared in here would need some kind of talk page or wikiproject discussion to reference, rather than being just declared:

8062:

I'm attending with care, but it is difficult to keep up with an article which is being panic edited in he background. I encourage further reduction, to a para or two, and then it can take its rightful place in the

7991: 6738: 5123:, and you would reasonably ask me to back up my claims with specific references, page numbers, quotes, etc. Does that help convey why I think it's unreasonable that you won't give page numbers, quotes, or anything? 7467:

The article is about a law, it's inception, it's structure and passage, and reactions. I have cited legal experts and similar. There is no issue there. This is not a science article; it's a *legal* article. --

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times. How about you put some effort into citing? I'm not being facetious, I am genuinely willing to find a compromise on the lede that's comprehensible and well-supported by a variety of high quality sources.

4889:? Even though it was just one word, I believe this is the first time you've responded to the actual content in a source, out of the 13 back-and-forths where I've presented quotes! That's great. With respect to 4335:

Thank you for the reply. Going point by point. You've accused me of cherry-picking twice now, please substantiate this claim. I am reading the abstract of Lindstrom (2018), our highest quality academic summary

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to conceal data. What policy or guideline on Knowledge requires inclusion of experts on topics on an otherwise notable article? I would need to read that in case I need to update my other articles on laws,

6657:? This isn't "Knowledge" saying that "if UFO stuff exists, it must be handled this way," and us giving 'undue weight', it's the US Congress and President saying it in passed law, and the Knowledge article 6202:

In the case of the Springfield cats, I suspect that there will soon be plenty of sources that will explicitly call it a “hoax” (if they don’t do so already), so I am not really worried about that specific

8226:(which preceded the law) confirmed the spy balloons were classed UAPs and that led to a reporting delay. And then, in addition to that, we definitely have people talking decades old conspiracy theories. 4893:, I don't agree with your interpretation. Balancing viewpoints (okay) is different than doing our own calculations and judgements (not okay). In other words, sure, I can obviously see the tension between 4234:, such as Lindstrom (2018). I'm glad we agree that there were cargo cults engaged in ritual action in pursuit of goods, but the dispute remains as to whether that was typical, or rare. The aforementioned 3732:

Expect heavy opposition from true believers. Early Mormonism and the Occult may be a better name. Joseph Smith openly worked as a traveling witch who would help find missing items using a magic wand/rod.

1129: 7339:

applies, the first few searches I did found inventors commenting on the Inventions Secrecy Act and nuclear scientists commenting on "born classified" matters. Were you concerned that such did not exist?

6627:, and reactions to the law from elected officials and journalists. As far as I can tell, I've now completely exhausted all of the sourcing that exists outside of things like forums and message boards. 3515:

The article consists mostly of statements made by Lee Clare, one of the lead archaeologists of the site. To the extent that conspiracies are mentioned, they are rebutted in the article by him and other

7482:

Legal experts are not routinely called upon to define terms "non-human intelligence" and "biological evidence" for such. If you know of any instance where that has been done, by all means let us know!

5072:

an idea of why I'm insistent that your reductionist popcult definition doesn't accurately reflect academic understanding of the topic, you should start reading. If you can find a copy, Peter Worsley's

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Generally speaking, you are absolutely right, but using synonyms is also absolutely within the scope of NOR and NPOV. If the preponderance of reliable sources use phrases like "false, racist rumors"

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And if we're talking about the "acted on their own initiative thing"... the leaders had been dead for a year, of course they had "acted on their own initiative" - as opposed to what, a Ouija board?

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Bernard revived the Templar tradition, and by 1980 more than one hundred rival Templar orders existed across a wide spectrum, ranging from social clubs to organizations that indulge in sexual magic

6742: 5202:. Finally, on page 81, the submaps have 7 with, and 10 without. The overall total is 40 with and 36 without, but if you only count Melanesia (i.e. exclude page 80), it's 40 with and 33 without. 6619:

topic associated with it. The article doesn't get into whether or not UFOs or aliens are real or not or their associated theories; I wrote about the law that was passed on December 22, 2023 by

3124:

does not necessarily carry weight as a theological argument, and shouldn't be treated or viewed as making such an argument to readers. This is extremely common language in religious studies.

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Massimo Introvigne (1995) provides a very detailed analysis of the relationship between the Solar Temple and various Templar organizations that have arisen since the late eighteenth century.

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The basic paradigm and worldview of Western natural sciences investigating tukdam is so different from the Tibetan Buddhist worldview that bringing those two together is really challenging.

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as a result of the back-and-forth. I don't have the time to pick over all of the discussions in detail right now, but it could probably use more eyes to make sure we're not falling into

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I would still need to know how to resolve the NPOV/FRINGE tag on the article and would like to request you like where I can read on that for what precise actions would be required. --

5858: 5853: 4950:

whether "engaging in ritual in pursuit of cargo" is "typical" versus "rare" versus whatever, and you want to, like, numerically summarize that as a "sometimes", in the face of multiple

4799:? Reality is complex and you and I are not experts. Can we do our own read of the sources and make a judgement call as to whether it sounds like a common thing or a rare thing? No, per 7959: 6151:

by using terminology that is not used by sources. It doesn’t matter whether WE might think something qualifies as a “hoax”… we should avoid that term unless the sources use that term.

2626:

In 1995, Introvigne argued that Order of the Solar Temple members who died by mass suicide had acted on their own initiative as opposed to being victims of the leader's manipulations.

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This article is about a topic where the popular understanding may substantially differ from academic consensus. Consider discussing changes which run counter to this consensus on the

6577:

materials related to things like "UFO crash recoveries" and "non-human intelligence" exist, it must be processed per this law's requirements. This was passed into binding law by the

936: 4358:. Yes, they were real people, and the article should absolutely paint a complete picture of what really happened, not the oversimplified morality fable. I don't agree that 'cargo' 4009:

I see a lot of dismissiveness - saying that the cargo cult story is a "pop culture myth" and such. I think this is painting with too broad a brush. Because when I actually look at

3347:

Six of one, half a dozen of the other. I would say that your version speaks more to a Knowledge "handling", but this is largely a matter of semantics. Maybe something simple like,

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Do we have a policy requirement that impacts this, or is this your own personal preference? If the former, I need you to link the relevant policy so I can use it. Thank you. --

5419:

Articles are based on sources. Come back when you've actually read some. Read them properly, not googled-mined them for isolated phrases to suit your pre-determined conclusions.

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to determine how to summarize the topic in the lede of our article. I have supported my position with specific quotes from sources we agree are reliable over a dozen times (see

2974:

and by some "cult war"-era journalism from more than 20 years ago, but academic religious studies (the relevant field for the topic) doesn't seem to regard CESNUR that way. The

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Andy, your response here is again doubling down on bluster without substance. My intent wasn't to offend by saying you sound like an activist, but, you really do, for example

3809:

Shame they don't really identify the real reasons why pseudoscience is kept at bay. GS is a part of it, but it's a small part of it. Wikiprojects (Medicine, Physics, etc...),

8027: 7950: 7213:"Explicit experts on "biological material" or "non-human intelligence" are required when discussing such matters. It doesn't matter if the context is a law or anything else!" 5573: 6971:

immediately, which I still invite if you or others think the law is not notable. If it's not sent to AFD, then it is notable. If anyone is performing legitimation, it's the

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Explicit experts on "biological material" or "non-human intelligence" are required when discussing such matters. It doesn't matter if the context is a law or anything else!

6781:

Those are terms used in the law itself. I don't think it's reasonable to tag the article because no experts have opined yet that the law mentions stuff that doesn't exist.

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This is, again, the same pattern. I've quoted multiple reliable encyclopedia definitions of "cargo cult". You've appealed to your general recollection of the literature

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The fact that chiropractic is pseudoscience is now outdated because the SBM source is expired or something. New user insists on that and does not believe in rules like

6847:

I'm sorry, I'm not sure what the disconnect is here. What does is matter if a secondary source doesn't exist? We can only link and use sources that do exist. You said:

3997:. I agree with their concern about not repeating as fact things that were later debunked. For instance, from my read, early reports were overly hasty in characterizing 3553:

looks like it could use some uninvolved editors with a good grasp of how to evaluate sources for reliability (i.e., on some basis other than "gives the right answer").

2955:

btw sorry for the words words words, it's just this is an extremely niche topic and I feel I should give context to those who aren't as interested in it as I am, haha.

8719: 6097:“If I have to create stories so that the American media actually pays attention to the suffering of the American people, then that's what I'm going to do," Vance said. 3101:

Knowledge cannot claim that the corpses of certain Tibetan Buddhists that are good at meditating decompose more slowly than other corpses. That's pure balderdash. See

8722: 6247: 3681: 3300:. It would be better if we said things that were less tied to "consensus" language and just said simple statements about divergence from the "popular understanding". 1627: 887: 7962: 6461:

You're free to notice anything you like, in the privacy of your own head, but you shouldn't publicly reveal that connection unless the editor has already done so:

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from the list of groups that have been defended by CESNUR, citing BLP concerns. I'm inclined to think it should be reinstated, but wanted to get opinions here.

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is that 'cargo cults typically engage in ritual actions in pursuit of cargo'). And I have read the source and several others, and pulled quotes all throughout.

3051:

cites plenty of sources, but it uses a framing that seems consistently odd. It's as if it is trying to remove the concept from Buddhism. For example, there is "

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If we did, there would be a problem with many of the laws being poorly written as courts often determine after the fact. I have no real issue with identifying

1502: 838: 430: 7659:? I'm feeling like I'm answering every single 'notability' acronym you all are raising here, to where I'm wondering what the fuss is. It's notable. If not... 8444: 8439: 7018:

such things exist and are found, they are now presumed public unless POTUS tells Congress why they cannot be, putting their existence still 'on the record',

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is worded in a way that attributes the centrality of slavery, treating it as opinion rather than accepted fact; compare the treatment in the main article at

4819:. The subject matter experts have already done this in high quality academic tertiary sources. You say that none of the sources engage in such reductionism, 3967:). I have also expressed conflicitng opinions about how exactly the issue of how the issue of "ritual action for material goods" issue should be framed, see 501: 6464:

Posting another editor's personal information is harassment, unless that person has voluntarily posted their own information, or links to such information,

4263:

I avoid producing my own summary account of the John Frum movement. Readers will soon know enough of John as they scan the assorted stories of his movement.

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machine, the relevant sources to determine whether it is worthy of inclusion here are those who can evaluate the particular physical laws being violated.

7048:

Why is it preposterous to equate Federal Law to superstition? There are plenty of laws the Federal Government has passed which are basically superstition.

4341:

this page ^) that it isn't. Do I really need to paste in the abstract of Lindstrom (2018) again? According to the cited sources, actually cargo cults did

3657:

An IP user is ranting on the talkpage with some ridiculous claims, including that the Chinese invented agriculture 23,000 years ago. Could use some eyes.

3267:

example here because it's a fantastic example of "there's a hell of a lot of sources simply claiming the wrong thing". Obviously this all runs up against

6767:"biological material" or "non-human intelligence" are required when discussing such matters. It doesn't matter if the context is a law or anything else! 6173: 5758:

It says that the myth tried to argue that slavery was not central to the reasons for the succession. Also can you link to your edit, as I can't find it.

3959: 2005: 1814: 388: 187: 4783:, that remains policy. If we have a lot of sources that say a lot of things about cargo cults, how can we know whether to summarize them in the lede as 8431: 7969: 7223:

is about a new President/Senate nominated committee that would review government records that may be excluded from declassification in violation of an

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If you cannot see how this article is serving as a legitimation of the hyperbolic and farcical claims of the UFO cult, I'm not sure that you are duly

6504: 6490: 4807:. So when you appeal to the complexity of the situation, such as by mentioning that some cults rejected cargo or ignored cargo, I am unmoved, beacuse 7984: 7947: 7522:. We have lots of sources which identify the obvious peculiarities of such. In this instance, it looks like there isn't much in terms of comments by 2663: 2573: 2569: 8686: 6634:

here. The law factually exists, does the stuff it says it does, is widely reported on by mainstream/major media, and is live and valid today in the

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Andy, you have to be kidding with this one. Please cite the relevant Knowledge policy that suggests we shouldn't cite abstracts. We absolutely can,

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variety of distinct religious movements who had their own particular beliefs and practices (Lindstrom says in the article that the term is used to

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The allergy to describing these stories as "myths" is still quite pervasive. I wish we could get over that. Identifying the stories as "myths" is

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award for his paper. The Ig Nobel Prize is a satiric prize. As has been stated on the talk-page for the Blue zone article the content is largely

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If proponents Trump and Vance (I think) know this is bullshit, then it's a hoax, right? I don't know if we know that they know this is bullshit.

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While Blueboar is right, I also agree with blindlynx that we should try coming up with a standard formula for what's a "theory/hypothesis" (e.g.

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would rather not consider the complexities of real human behaviour, but instead reduce it to vacuous sound-bite myths about ignorant brown people

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saying this is the background? In my (admittedly non-exhaustive) look it seems they're all focussed on aliens too, just like the politicians.

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which doesn't even appear to discuss this law. What is going on? This is meant to be a serious Project and editors are expected to take care.

8020: 7927: 7905: 7868: 7043: 7002: 6078: 5819:, and replaced a section that may be useful to "Origins". I'll try to follow up at both articles, but wanted to post while it was on my mind, 4201: 8090: 7364:

I am asking what guideline or policy says this is required because I need to read it. Will you please provide something supporting this? --

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Thank you for the reply. You are correct that you and I have not disagreed on the reliability of sources, so I should have instead suggested

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This noticeboard comes in for some stick, but it is reassuring to have some external validation of the Project's approach to pseudoscience.

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Thank you for the pointers to "The Trumpet Shall Sound" (Worsley 1957) and "A Melanesian Millennium" (Burridge 1960), I'll look into those.

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recently has been about whether or not 'hoax' is an appropriate thing to call it. Does anyone know of policies or conventions similar to

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you appreciate my concern, which is that you're pointing, very broadly, to the literature about cargo cults on a whole? That simply isn't

4083:, but it could also signify moral salvation, existential respect, or proto-nationalistic, anti-colonial desire for political autonomy. ... 6589:. Whatever the beliefs or whatnot about aliens and UFOs and the paranormal we have, I simply wrote an article about a United States law. 6362: 6352: 6160: 5305:

Whoa, hold on, how do you figure? Given that we've just spent days arguing about whether or not we should write in the lede "cargo cults

4243:

to jump from that to doubting basic claims about what happened, when these claims are supported in modern high quality academic sources.

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to wave your hands at the whole literature and say "my summary is that it just didn't feel like 'most', it was less than that". That's

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I'd recommend you look up the word 'modal' in a dictionary, since you seem not to understand it. Beyond that, you clearly need to read

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Those seem to be almost exclusively, if not entirely primary. I wasn't clear in that I was only considering secondary sources, sorry.

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If the article had been named 'Millennialist movements in colonial and post-colonial Melanesia' there would be nothing to argue about.

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I agree that a dedicated FAQ piece will help us to avoid the platitudes that come ad nauseam with the popular discourse about Altaic.

3192: 2799: 2763: 8538: 8500: 7715:. Would it be helpful if went through each source and specifically itemized how they are referencing the law and to what detail? -- 7165:

I see no hypothesis that was even properly formed here. The problem is the thing is so messed up, we can't really say much about it.

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advising government clients and related on full compliance; the authors of that piece are themselves notable legal experts including

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actually tasked with reading all the complicated partially-contradicting sources and synthesizing a summary out of it, that would be

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signify those other more abstract concepts. The problem is that again you've cut off the first part of the sentence. (emphasis mine)

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The article as written is a stalking horse for credulity about UFOs being evidence for aliens. It is, essentially, functioning as a

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Now, that being said, you have referred to a map in the second edition of "The Trumpet Shall Sound" (Worsley 1968), and you've said

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Outside input would indeed be appreciated, but I don't think this summary here is quite right, see the talk page for more detail.

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A newspaper article is a primary source if it reports events, but a secondary source if it analyses and comments on those events.

6387: 6322: 5908: 5697:, where the father says he studies creation myths and the mother replies "I don't have a myth, I have the unerring word of God". 3968: 3727: 3712: 3490: 2950: 668: 550: 320: 8595: 7642: 7620: 7597: 7400:

that says experts of a certain 'sort' are 'required', as you intimated. Please reply with that once you have it. Thank you! --

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are not actually on your side in the particular cases that I bring up, and they support some of the things that you call myth.

4161: 3948: 3883: 3615: 2017: 1778: 1755: 1418: 1062: 543: 315: 237: 109: 8416: 8392: 8206:? Do sources link this to Chinese Spay Balloons? It seems the politicians introducing it are framing it as being about aliens. 5875: 5532: 4647: 2984:

promote a scholarly approach to the study of NRMs as a counter to inaccurate portrayals by the media and the anticult movement

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Agreed, but it is preposterous, being blunt, to equate Federal law to superstition. Especially a law that does not say there

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Introvigne (including works from more critical scholars like Kent or Lalich). I feel like someone would have brought it up.

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I have no problem updating the lede to talk about Western colonization in general, and not mention WW2, which is a change I

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Access has been down since early summer and it was spotty before that. It really impairs our ability to debunk things --

8421: 8375: 6908:. It needs cleanup at least. We may decide to trash it, but I'm not quite convinced that this is the necessary remedy yet. 6476: 5440:

and Lindstrom does point to some authors making arguments ~20 years ago but the general theme and scope of the article and

4779:, sure, that's the goal. However, there are complications to that ideal. First, and foremost, we don't get an exception to 3485: 1281: 1236: 1207: 555: 295: 212: 8728: 8465: 8163:. The entire UAPDA was already re-introduced for the NDAA 2025 with the previously omitted portions, and it's not a valid 7855:

and what little secondary sourcing there is is poor/fringe. Might be worth blanking and redirecting to a small mention in

6993:

the government of that country, neither is it our job to uncritically propagate any bullshit that government generates. --

6664:

How should this be addressed? I'm stuck as the templates seem incorrect given there is no plausible solution to them? --

6431:

3 years later? Also is it doxxing if i notice than some Knowledge username is similar to some outside-Knowledge username?

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I can definitely see a pattern in those examples but I don't know if I could articulate it clearly. Maybe something like:

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You are probably right. The purpose of a lede is to summarise the article body. Something I've been trying to get across.

4362:, please provide a source for this. I've disputed this clearly in my previous post ^, Otto (2009) says that the movements 3135: 8691:

Skip forward to September 2024 and we have the same user again using multiple IPs but this time inserting mention of his

6610:"The fact the article takes at face value claims that the US government had in its possession alien material/technology." 6331:

is clear that editor judgement on a case-by-case basis will need to play a role when the various principles are at odds:

6245: 5607: 4386:, just WW2 logistics and cargo. So I don't believe I did what you call offensive. When discussing this, look what I said 1999: 1740: 415: 340: 195: 126: 37: 8703:. There has already been some heated discussion on the talk-page so any other input from different users may be useful. 8331: 8093:

in there, a source so obscure that it lacks a Knowledge page. Are you sure you have done careful diligence according to

7515:, but if we have no sources which identify what the hell a law means by a particular phrase, what are we supposed to do? 6722: 6249: 5186: 3907: 3803: 1232: 8621: 7034:

that is below our other rules interprets things, then the FRINGE guideline is a bit off-kilter, putting it mildly. --

6600:

to the mainstream view and explaining the responses to the fringe theories." On the talk page, the comments left were,

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my claim that the myth of the cargo was present "more often than not" (which is the exact phrase used by Otto (2009)).

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page and I believe it's very high quality and written by a clear subject matter expert. I am promoting the abstract of

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We write about topics as defined by the sources. We don't impose our own definitions to suit our preconceived notions.

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say. If you want to dispute that, if you want to claim that "ritual in pursuit of cargo" was less frequent, it is not

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is met. Should WP have an article on each of the hundreds of laws that are enacted by the US Congress every session?

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would be pertinent, but more generally citing abstracts is like citing the backs of books. And if an editor has only

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movements (which were often opposed to the colonial administration) in the most unflattering light possible. I think

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leading to questions about the nature of consciousness and its possible dissociation from measurable brain functions.

3027: 2011: 1412: 881: 533: 466: 362: 355: 305: 6975:, which is not our job to challenge as editors here? As citizens, sure. But our job is to make an encyclopedia. -- 6801:

What? If you have a law that uses terms which are not properly defined, how is Knowledge supposed to discuss them?

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Obviously when there is a common name we should use that, but often in these cases we end up groping around for a

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I assume? Also, the background section seems to be largely from sources which pre-date the act, so is a piece of

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The article is built largely on primary sources/WP:OR and what little secondary sourcing there is is poor/fringe.

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those in the article title. Whether "hoax" is the best way to do so is another question, but I'd argue that e.g.

4926:. You're instead asking for us to weigh AndyTheGrump's viewpoint, which comes from your judgement and summary of 4126:

foretold Western goods, according to the article's cited sources, and it wouldn't be neutral to imply otherwise.

3684:

be renamed Folk magic and early Mormonism. "Cunning folk tradition" is an apologetic euphemism for folk magic.

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This is non-productive presently. Please speak directly, as I am. You will need to link the specific section of

6815:

Isn't our job to report what seconday sources say? Why would 'we' discuss them in article space, which would be

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How do we resolve the template that says X must be included when X doesn't seem to exist for a notable law? --

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You are 'scoping the article' by cherry-picking from sources to suit your own predetermined agenda. As has been

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That would seem difficult, as most were published years or decades before the subject of the article existed.

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This is a very interesting edge case, indeed, so it may be worth thinking carefully how to thread the needle.

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Saul Justin Newman wrote a non-peer-reviewed paper criticizing longevity claims and data from the blue zones

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is a fact that Altaic is a sprachbund rather than a language family" doesn't capture that important nuance. –

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to discuss fringe theories as such. Our goal is to improve articles about them, or create new ones if needed.

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If you have a law that uses terms which are not properly defined, how is Knowledge supposed to discuss them?

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As has been pointed out umpteen times already, the Knowledge article is not 'defining a term'. Knowledge is

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but I don't think it should be the primary source for some more off-into-the-theological-weeds discussions.

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It's not a theory, it's not a hypothesis and it's not really a hoax. This is just misinformation. See also

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or someone would have immediately given the passions some people have on this topic would have sent it to

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moral salvation, existential respect, or proto-nationalistic, anti-colonial desire for political autonomy.

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moral salvation, existential respect, or proto-nationalistic, anti-colonial desire for political autonomy.

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label almost any sort of organised, village-based social movement with religious and political aspirations

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There's been an analogous position with climate denial and medical science for ages. Knowledge can cope.

7030:, is in no way is "uncritically" propogating "bullshit". If that is how this "FRINGE" lesser hieararchal 6714: 5156:

And them come back and tell me that its nothing beyond imitative rituals for attracting western goods....

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First, I want to be absolutely clear that computing fractions for the cults labeled each way on this map

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moral salvation, existential respect, or proto-nationalistic, anti-colonial desire for political autonomy

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to making personal attacks and other disruption. Back in September 2023 I actually reported this at ANI

4885:

I'm not sure what you're going for with "modal", do you mean to draw a distinction between majority and

4714: 3874:- Deletion discussion on a person known for promoting a number of crank theories regarding World War 2. 3734: 3062:" And neither the study nor the interview quite gives the vibe that sentence does. Reference 1 says, " 1744: 1191: 8708: 6703: 6624: 5648: 5637: 5399:

A quick perusal of the map will indicate that 'Myth of the cargo' only features in around half of them.

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A quick perusal of the map will indicate that 'Myth of the cargo' only features in around half of them.

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Ahh I misunderstood as the link to the lost cause made me think that was included in this discussion.

4195:

I mostly agree with Andy. If you take "Cargo cult" at its broadest, it is basically is equivalent to "

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explanation makes sense, but is not applicable to my what I see in the sourcing and coverage of the

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about this relationship between FTN and religious topics, and it may be of interest to people here.

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The issue is that it's "often" Western goods. Or, look at the other source, Otto (2009), which says

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is appealed to (it's easy to verify), but it is ultimately invoked because we want Knowledge to be

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false rumors centering on Springfield, Ohio, are “a story that you created”, Vance replied, “Yes!”

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We can help determine whether the topic is fringe and if so, whether it is treated accurately and

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the cargo cult article already clearly states that building fake airfields/airplanes did happen

4326: 4217: 4196: 4186: 4070:... the modal cargo cult was an agitation or organised social movement of Melanesian villagers 4046: 3976: 3903: 3741: 3701: 3662: 3558: 3469: 3175: 2848: 2090: 1526: 1297: 1248: 1119: 513: 73: 6538:. I've gone over the recommended reading here several times to consider them again, including 6180:

when discussing this topic, it is reasonable and well within policy IMHO for us as editors to

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an abstract before citing a source, well – that's a red card. There is also the usual problem.

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more often than not, involved a strong concern with the acquisition of Western goods—the cargo

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and now suddenly it's incredibly offensive that I looked at the map and put exact numbers to

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Thanks for the link! And lol at the image. I believe that's a higher standard as it's on the

4720: 3875: 3799: 3611: 3105:. Right now, it's not adequately couched as a belief. It's stated almost as fact in WPvoice. 2759: 1979: 1971: 1837: 1647: 1639: 1517: 1307: 1258: 1053: 914: 906: 877: 742: 3501:. It is full of conspiracy theories. Coincidentally, those conspiracies were just raised on 2586: 1933: 1510: 716: 8731: 8336: 8169: 8098: 7612: 7534: 7483: 7454: 7417: 7383: 7341: 7302: 7267: 7166: 7071: 6950: 6909: 6876: 6834: 6802: 6768: 6680: 6531: 6448: 6344: 6252: 6227: 6189: 6109: 6052: 5933: 5893: 5680: 5322:

The Knowledge article is about 'cargo cults' as a topic defined by the sources, not by you.

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apologetic reply to mainstream scholarship about the magical worldview in early Mormonism.

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not foretold cargo, and that's what the disagreement has spiraled out from. For instance,

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that plainly say that this is actually "typical" or "more often than not", then that is a

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Have relevant experts commented on the law? If not, then it may not belong in Knowledge.

6607:"Added a fringe tag, to warn readers of the undue credence the article gives UFO rumors." 6535: 6383: 6030: 5748: 5665: 5623: 4442: 4265:

And, Otto (2009), on page 88 while discussing the Lindstrom (1993) source agrees, saying

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Talk page has a new entry, a question on how to handle the tall tales in the article. --

7754:

There are 34 references that span from June 2023 to June 2024. Have you clicked edit on

5915:

for naming hoaxes; rumours; conspiracy theories; or other fringe nonsense and disinfo?

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Looks like a bizarre law from the USA. The article is built largely on primary sources/

7784: 7741: 7694: 6789: 6635: 6486: 6270: 6212: 6156: 5941: 5816: 5777: 5740: 5705: 5353: 5113:, actually, typical of cargo cults, and I'll be updating the lede accordingly to say so 4886: 4735: 4634: 4626: 4397: 4291: 4010: 3843: 3830: 3569: 3078: 2869: 2132: 2120: 1990: 1887: 1023: 1019: 788: 602: 594: 491: 247: 8383: 8306: 7890:

Might be worth blanking and redirecting to a small mention of UFO conspiracy theories?

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Swiss conspiracy theorist, neutrality discussion on Talk. More eyes may be useful. --

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The template on the article now (NPOV template) says that, "This article may present

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That reminds me of the conversation between Leonard's father and Sheldon's mother in

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potentially given the sheer volume of coverage and reporting over time, detailed at

6585:. It's a real thing and other parts of the government are already engaging in their 6318:

That's why i'm asking if there is a specific policy right? or if we should make one—

5154:, and it's totally insufficient at overruling the highest quality reliable sources. 3442:

This seems like a useful alternative, actually. Hadn't encountered this one before.

3155:

Frontiers In? Seriously? We shouldn't use fringe journals to back up fringe claims.

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Well, some people still act on others commanded them to do thousands of years ago...

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is just the lastest in many articles I can't improve because this access is down.

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With wisdom and restraint, not cherry-picking our favorite descriptors, of course.

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It is nice that people are comforted by conditionals, but how does one determine

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The article reports on a law passed by Congress covered to where it easily meets

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My thinking is that we ought to reflect the sources; but that, at the same time,

6343:

common name, though some RS do use it), but I haven't seen a better alternative.

6328: 6012: 5889: 5205: 5195: 5191: 5133: 4959: 4943: 4898: 4800: 4780: 4730: 4688: 4680: 4676: 4625:). The source that I've been referring to, also written by Lindstrom in 2018, is 4379: 4006: 3986: 3455: 3102: 2979: 2956: 2942: 2791: 2735: 2719: 2704: 2686: 2668: 2142: 2112: 2032: 1919: 1879: 1703: 1567: 1496: 1334: 760: 738: 3568:

I think I speak for everyone when I say "there's no way I'm touching that until

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Relevant legal experts have been included as sources in the article on the law

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he states that his work deals only with texts and not with Melanesian realities

4144:

Western goods but could sometimes be a more abstract concept, we should convey

4115: 4097:‘cargo’ was often Western commercial goods and money, but it could also signify 3851: 3822: 3755: 3706: 3443: 3376: 3336: 3306: 3276: 3186: 3144: 3090: 2828: 1799: 1479: 1437: 1395: 958: 768: 632: 4683:

by looking at the abstract of Lindstrom (2018), or at the definition given by

4258: 4209: 3790:

disclosure, their off-Knowledge organizing has been the subject of criticism.)

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It's not that I know anything about the subject, this is just a minor nit. --

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Talk:Sahaja Yoga#Request for comment on adding context to existing statement

4679:

to me. The question of how to summarize cargo cults can be answered without

8671: 8573: 8558: 8531:

They just need to wait for Nature to start accepting vibes-based analyses…

8227: 8203: 8189: 8123: 8094: 7915: 7852: 7219:

The article isn't about "biological material" or "non-human intelligence".

6928: 6816: 6763: 6304: 5524: 5406: 5387:

a facile argument over a catchy phrase being conducted half the world away.

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needs to be understood as a symbol for what the movements were motivated by

4337: 4298: 4274: 4244: 4240: 4235: 4231: 4153: 4127: 4015: 3940: 3914: 3719: 3685: 3394: 3140: 2700: 2655: 1944: 1898: 1852: 1759: 1654: 1612: 1591: 1034: 973: 764: 734: 7519: 6524:(UAPDA) and am struggling to figure out how to address concerns raised on 3672:"Cunning folk traditions" is euphemism for "folk magic" in early Mormonism 8554: 8343: 8276: 7758:

and looked? I took substantial care in even organizing them by date. --

7626: 7585: 7306: 7237: 6871:

If secondary sources do not exist, then notability can be questioned per

6244:

It should also be noted that some sources do use "hoax" explicitly, e.g.

5480: 5450: 5326: 5199: 5169:? Sure, no problem saying that, because it's supported by the sources. I 5147: 5116: 5096: 4935: 4684: 4599: 3072: 2886: 2636:

then edits many anthologies, writes articles (mainly about Satanism) and

1682: 1349: 921: 823: 791: 640:

to remove any mention of fringe theories, but to describe them properly.

7883: 7755: 7262:. We can delete, merge, or redirect pages if the topic is fraught. That 7206: 6989:

Not everybody is a citizen of that specific country, and although it is

4055:

If you don't mind, I'll go in on these specific quotes. The source says

2588: 90:. For a related set of forums which do not function as noticeboards see 6630:

The more I read these policies, I worry we've fallen into some kind of

4630: 4001:

these rituals were taking place. However, the issue I see is that it's

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No one wants to reduce this to literally just fake airfields, however

785:

To start a new request, enter the name of the relevant article below:

583:

Fringe theories noticeboard - dealing with all sorts of pseudoscience

8672: 6620: 5340: 5314:

to my proposal was disagreeing that cargo cults typically engaged in

4946:. To make my position crystal clear, if you have read a few sources, 3519:

Summarizing it as being "full of conspiracy theories" is misleading.

3375:

It'd be spicy but I do think there's value in something like that...

952: 648:

If you mention specific editors, you should notify them. You may use

86:. For a listing of ongoing discussions and current requests, see the 6427:

Do you think that it would be useful to discuss again the target of

5175:

The rituals sometimes were in pursuit of cargo and sometimes weren't

4836:

say "typically" and "more often than not", why should we trust your

796: 6631: 4617:), I do not dispute any of that (except I'm not totally sure about 4404:

the common misconceptions about cargo cults... except for that the

4140:

TLDR summary: Since the sources say that the cargo in question was

4072:

in pursuit of ‘cargo’ by means of renewed or invented ritual action

2584: 714: 8730:, etc. Seems like mention may be warranted. Spamming, no so much. 6649:

that gets into criticism or analysis of the various claims of the

5299:

just cargo cults, that makes the percentage even higher not lower.

4148:

that. We should not editorialize that down and say that cargo was

4110:

So I hope this makes clear the issue that I see, it's a matter of

4005:

whether "ritual action in pursuit of cargo" actually happened. On

7625:

I am uncertain that a law's mere existence is sufficient to meet

7227:, and what the law described as abuses of the USA classification/ 7112:

It is your opinion that those people are perfectly reasonable. --

6562: 4867:

logistics and cargo colonizing and then abandoning Melanesia..."

3237:

and discussion of this template's inclusion here may be found at

2924:(Sean O'Callaghan's review of the 2006 book that reprints it, in 1324: 36:"WP:FTN" redirects here. For nominations of featured topics, see 7530:

behind certain phrases and words in this law are supposed to be.

3053:

However, these EEG studies have not detected any brain activity,

2623:

attack (which they were ultimately found to have committed).

7378:

I have already told you that the guideline under discussion is

3335:

more than the actual understanding of the topic per WP:VERIFY.

3047: 3038: 2615: 817: 718: 42: 7151:

It certainly does not state the hypothesis is actually valid.

5918:

If there isn't one we should seriously consider such a policy—

4382:

to go in the lede, then sure that's easy for me to accept, as

3303:

BOILERPLATE ABOUT POPULAR UNDERSTANDING, VERIFIABILITY, ETC...

2589: 733:

Discussion of fringe theories will only depend on coverage in

719: 8718:

I have noticed a few outlets commenting on the IgNobel Prize

8045: 7220: 7098:

other perfectly reasonable people have a different opinion .

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when the terms they use are too clunky for an article title.

5162:

makes that clear. Obviously there is so much more to it. So:

4990:

merely adopted new beliefs (rather than being new religions).

4122:

foretold Western goods and sometimes didn't. No, cargo cults

3939:?) the audience will probably lean critical (pro-debunking)) 3931:, your message is definitely non-neutral, and since forum is 2818: 699: 7580:

I'm wondering the same thing. There doesn't seem to be much

7497:"chapter and verse". I found, still, nothing like this. -- 5511:

Sounds good on moving back to the article's talk page. I've

5438:

term has largely fallen out of favour and is now seldom used

5158:

This is not what I've said. It is not "nothing beyond". And

5109:

the ill-informed one, and ritual action in pursuit of cargo

4976:

such drivel. It is completely, utterly, and hopelessly wrong

4354:, so we don't really need to talk about them, and certainly 7511:

Does this single quotation deserve inclusion? Knowledge is

6558: 4584:

Updated overview of the origins, anthropological uses, and

4384:

none of my proposed ledes mentioned airplanes or airfields

2814:"Sekte-onderzoekers verblind door eigen inlevingsvermogen" 793: 789: 778:

at the top of the section when your concern was addressed.

7313:? I can't find a rule/policy that seems to say that? -- 7284:

may qualify for deletion and under what policy/guideline?

7055:

such things exist? What is the test by which identifying

6833:

We can't report on secondary sources which do not exist.

6726: 6725:, and as far as legal experts, as the article is about a 5977:

If no: Did the originator of the idea know it was false?

5335:

This is another critical point that I agree with. Like I

3682:

Cunning folk traditions and the Latter Day Saint movement

7649:"But it sure looks like an example of WP:TOOSOON to me." 7584:

attention, at least not yet, and so it isn't clear that

6335:

recognizable; and resembles titles for similar articles.

5329:, the latter doesn't. It's just not how Knowledge works! 4345:

engage in ritual actions in pursuit of cargo, which was

671:

to encourage an increased visibility for the discussion.

6640:

National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2024

5815:

it looks like this vague language was copied over into

5660:

or giving academically-fringe views too much weight. --

5231:

This isn't an article about the two words 'cargo cult'.

4922:

when weighing those viewpoints in the lede. But that's

4687:

in Vivanco (2018), which is actually a definition. Per

2980:

Scarecrow Press (an imprint of Rowman & Littlefield

7882:

This statement is completely factually incorrect per:

7280:

Thank you for explaining. Can you explain further how

6495:

Thank you Jlwoodwa, this is exactly what i asked for.

6477:

Knowledge:Harassment § Posting of personal information

6143:

We (as Wikipedians) need to be careful not to violate

5968:

Are there any serious academic advocates of the idea?

3533:

I scanned it too hastily. You're right. My apologies.

3136:

apparently enough evidence of a delayed onset of decay

2986:(76), and Introvigne personally has been published by 8403:

There is a new RfC on this article's Talk Page. See:

5234:

our own definitions to suit our preconceived notions.

5204:

With the caveat that this whole endeavour is invalid

3424:

I've seen FAQs used that way before. Specifically on

2829:"Les liaisons dangereuses des universités lyonnaises" 763:. Report article content that appears to violate the 8154:, it passed, it's on the books, and it is live. The 7142:

for credulity about UFOs being evidence for aliens."

5515:

to kick off seeing about updating the article body.

5316:

pursuit of a coming bounty of Western goods or money

4471:

diffs where I support my position with such quotes (

4081:‘cargo’ was often Western commercial goods and money 3309:

way Knowledge describes this topic is: "Altaic is a

2811: 2153: 628:. Also, check the archives for similar discussions. 5002:

put some effort into reading the god-damned sources

4588:of cargo cult—the term—and the social movements it 4571:Lindstrom, Lamont (2019). "Cargo cult postmortem". 3128:

Right now, it's not adequately couched as a belief.

2862: 8578:https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T322916#10036209 7335:. And while, in your other examples, I'm not sure 6704: 6642:. How exactly would this be addressed if there is 6615:of how it is implemented and similar, such as the 6186:Debunked claims of cat-eating in Springfield, Ohio 5303:The exact percentage ... is neither here nor there 4629:, which is currently the most cited source on the 2882:The Order of the Solar Temple: The Temple of Death 622:this short summary of relevant policies and advice 7526:sources as to what we are supposed to assume the 6723:Knowledge:Notability#General notability guideline 3393:For a talk page notice, you might be looking for 2865:"Ordeal by Fire: The Tragedy of the Solar Temple" 1272:Category:Ethically disputed educational practices 8746: 4930:, essentially asking us to trust your judgement 4553: 3958:, but given the failure to shut down pages like 3245:The current academic consensus on this topic is: 2976:Historical Dictionary of New Religious Movements 7713:Unidentified Anomalous Phenomena Disclosure Act 7282:Unidentified Anomalous Phenomena Disclosure Act 7199:Unidentified Anomalous Phenomena Disclosure Act 6719:Unidentified Anomalous Phenomena Disclosure Act 6659:Unidentified Anomalous Phenomena Disclosure Act 6571:Unidentified Anomalous Phenomena Disclosure Act 6522:Unidentified Anomalous Phenomena Disclosure Act 6514:Unidentified Anomalous Phenomena Disclosure Act 5842:Unidentified Anomalous Phenomena Disclosure Act 5835:Unidentified Anomalous Phenomena Disclosure Act 4202:Elfriede Hermann's account of the Yali movement 4014:would love to find a compromise on this point. 3960:Knowledge:Article Rescue Squadron – Rescue list 2841: 2650:Despite the sources, Order of the Solar Temple 8150:I am throroughly flummoxed as well. The UAPDA 7148:The law is essentially an if-then proposition. 7145:That is reading way too much into the article. 5318:. So, now can we agree that they actually did? 5115:. You would reasonably object on the basis of 4638:(despite Lindstrom (2018) saying so clearly). 1223:Category:Ethically disputed judicial practices 7301:Can you please address your other statement, 6696:"Have relevant experts commented on the law?" 5464:not enough to achieve any kind of consensus. 5164:The rituals mostly were in pursuit of cargo, 5101:AndyTheGrump, I've read all the sources, and 4928:undisclosed passages from undisclosed sources 4897:saying to fairly represent viewpoints, while 4613:Thank you for the reply. In your quote here ( 4508:), to no substantive reply from you (instead 4210:Lindstrom's account of the John Frum movement 4089:be more than mere manufactured goods, and it 3872:Knowledge:Articles for deletion/Darryl Cooper 2597:This page has archives. Sections older than 58: 8156:National Archives and Records Administration 7225:Executive Order from President Obama in 2009 6339:that "hoax" is not 100% ideal (it's not the 5569:FTN and religious topics at the Village Pump 4619:if local people were to purify and harmonize 4366:, and Lindstrom (2018) says (emphasis mine) 4118:. It's undue weight to say that cargo cults 3551:Talk:Kuči (tribe)#RfC on origin of the tribe 2926:Alternative Spirituality and Religion Review 2826: 6737:. Other sources from legal experts include 4974:. But, just to be clear, your indignation ( 4356:not in the lede of the 'Cargo cult' article 3969:Talk:Cargo_cult#The_"cargo"_in_"cargo_cult" 2718:definitely would have done if it was able. 737:. Medicine-related claims must comply with 5181:slant that isn't supported by the sources. 4623:if local people engaged in certain rituals 755:For concerns about neutrality in articles 65: 51: 5772:Looks like Aquillion may be referring to 5382:are imposing your own broader definition. 4978:) is just because I was misleading about 4570: 4352:therefore those ones were not cargo cults 3361:Can't get more plain spoken than that :) 1136:Category:LGBT-related conspiracy theories 662:to articles' talkpages under discussion. 626:the guideline on treating fringe theories 8688:and the article was locked for a while. 7066:as a guideline as though that will save 6653:related to things that would fall under 7092:Stop that kind of unjustified language. 6401:One week ago i improved the article on 5909:Talk:Springfield,_Ohio,_cat-eating_hoax 4554:Vivanco, Luis A. (2018). "cargo cult". 4059:The problem I see, is that journalists 4035:meant more than mere manufactured goods 2812:Velde, Koert van der (August 5, 1997). 1073: 993: 941: 14: 8747: 8071:, it will make more sense to readers. 4077:would, for believers, bring them cargo 2607:when more than 4 sections are present. 1779:List of superseded scientific theories 1756:List of superseded scientific theories 837:will be Today's Featured Article; see 689:Search this noticeboard & archives 660:{{talk fringe|the fringe theory name}} 33:Noticeboard to discuss fringe theories 7677:Is the explanation given at the link 6644:no secondary sourcing related to the 6472:includes profiles on external sites 4797:engaged in ritual in pursuit of cargo 4789:engaged in ritual in pursuit of cargo 4556:A Dictionary of Cultural Anthropology 642:Never present fringe theories as fact 46: 8549:access restored to Wikimedia Library 8202:Sounds good, except isn't this just 7518:Take, for example, laws relating to 6623:, it's main features as reported by 5004:when I have quoted cited sources in 4901:says we can't do our own synthesis. 4615:A term originally ... or in churches 4564:I see Lindstrom 1993 cited but not: 3292:are a bit WPistic. I understand why 3219: 739:more stringent sourcing requirements 84:discussion, request, and help venues 6565:", but about the law passed by the 6378:title that does so if necessary. -- 5600:out of step with the academic one. 4212:provide adequate evidence of this. 2842:Louter, Michiel (August 13, 1997). 38:Knowledge:Featured topic candidates 30: 8391:Previous noticeboard discussions: 8168:people are being nominated to the 6709:Tooltip Public Law (United States) 5907:A good chunk of the discussion at 5619:Springfield, Ohio, cat-eating hoax 4259:your reference to Lindstrom (1993) 3965:User_talk:Austronesier#Cargo_cults 2749:as opposed to what, a Ouija board? 776:{{Resolved|Your reason here ~~~~}} 31: 8771: 8428:American Chiropractic Association 8422:American Chiropractic Association 7070:of this law is not a great look. 5954:) vs a "conspiracy theory" (e.g. 5737:Origins of the American Civil War 5730:Origins of the American Civil War 4903:I don't think we're at that point 4621:, I might write more generically 4257:To make a specific criticism, in 4206:Cargo, Cult, and Culture Critique 3486:New sources added to Gobekle Tepe 3041:(Buddhist post-mortem meditation) 2618:defend Order of the Solar Temple? 2601:may be automatically archived by 2012:Superstition in Islamic tradition 1413:Template:MBTI Cognitive Functions 761:neutral point of view noticeboard 743:generally prefer academic sources 7896:No, you may not, thank you. -- 6721:article seems to trivially meet 6265:Then we can follow the sources. 5956:moon landing conspiracy theories 5617:Just requesting folks watchlist 3224: 2879:later published as a chapter in 2158: 667:Please also notify any relevant 72: 7661:Knowledge:Articles for deletion 5903:Descriptions of fringe theories 5519:, we'd love your input over at 5052:whereas you have cited sources 4079:. Ethnographers suggested that 3313:rather than a language family." 2768:I guess? The article says this: 759:about fringe theories, use the 568:Category:Knowledge noticeboards 8740:02:10, 21 September 2024 (UTC) 8713:14:50, 20 September 2024 (UTC) 8667:08:08, 20 September 2024 (UTC) 8596:13:16, 20 September 2024 (UTC) 8567:07:49, 20 September 2024 (UTC) 8539:15:28, 19 September 2024 (UTC) 8525:14:54, 19 September 2024 (UTC) 8505:14:52, 19 September 2024 (UTC) 8486:14:44, 19 September 2024 (UTC) 8417:05:33, 19 September 2024 (UTC) 8332:08:12, 17 September 2024 (UTC) 8254:06:14, 17 September 2024 (UTC) 8236:06:10, 17 September 2024 (UTC) 8218:05:37, 17 September 2024 (UTC) 8198:05:31, 17 September 2024 (UTC) 8183:03:47, 17 September 2024 (UTC) 8146:03:39, 17 September 2024 (UTC) 8132:03:37, 17 September 2024 (UTC) 8107:12:39, 17 September 2024 (UTC) 8081:04:00, 17 September 2024 (UTC) 8058:03:53, 17 September 2024 (UTC) 8039:03:51, 17 September 2024 (UTC) 8021:03:32, 17 September 2024 (UTC) 7928:03:11, 17 September 2024 (UTC) 7906:03:06, 17 September 2024 (UTC) 7869:03:01, 17 September 2024 (UTC) 7841:02:06, 17 September 2024 (UTC) 7810:03:34, 17 September 2024 (UTC) 7793:03:22, 17 September 2024 (UTC) 7768:03:20, 17 September 2024 (UTC) 7750:03:14, 17 September 2024 (UTC) 7725:03:03, 17 September 2024 (UTC) 7703:02:56, 17 September 2024 (UTC) 7673:02:47, 17 September 2024 (UTC) 7643:01:45, 17 September 2024 (UTC) 7621:01:30, 17 September 2024 (UTC) 7609:with respect to the law itself 7598:01:15, 17 September 2024 (UTC) 7578:it may not belong in Knowledge 7543:12:33, 17 September 2024 (UTC) 7507:02:39, 17 September 2024 (UTC) 7492:01:01, 17 September 2024 (UTC) 7478:00:57, 17 September 2024 (UTC) 7463:00:53, 17 September 2024 (UTC) 7448:00:50, 17 September 2024 (UTC) 7434:? I am asking you to link the 7426:00:48, 17 September 2024 (UTC) 7410:00:44, 17 September 2024 (UTC) 7392:00:41, 17 September 2024 (UTC) 7374:00:37, 17 September 2024 (UTC) 7350:00:27, 17 September 2024 (UTC) 7331:board. The relevant policy is 7323:00:06, 17 September 2024 (UTC) 7297:23:44, 16 September 2024 (UTC) 7276:23:39, 16 September 2024 (UTC) 7254:21:41, 16 September 2024 (UTC) 7244:. Can you please link me? -- 7175:02:17, 21 September 2024 (UTC) 7161:08:23, 19 September 2024 (UTC) 7122:10:14, 19 September 2024 (UTC) 7108:08:34, 19 September 2024 (UTC) 7080:02:20, 21 September 2024 (UTC) 7044:14:22, 18 September 2024 (UTC) 7003:09:27, 18 September 2024 (UTC) 6985:13:32, 17 September 2024 (UTC) 6959:12:35, 17 September 2024 (UTC) 6941:02:37, 17 September 2024 (UTC) 6918:00:55, 17 September 2024 (UTC) 6900:00:52, 17 September 2024 (UTC) 6885:00:42, 17 September 2024 (UTC) 6867:00:39, 17 September 2024 (UTC) 6843:00:27, 17 September 2024 (UTC) 6829:23:45, 16 September 2024 (UTC) 6811:23:40, 16 September 2024 (UTC) 6797:21:40, 16 September 2024 (UTC) 6777:21:29, 16 September 2024 (UTC) 6758:21:18, 16 September 2024 (UTC) 6689:20:52, 16 September 2024 (UTC) 6674:19:58, 16 September 2024 (UTC) 6505:19:21, 16 September 2024 (UTC) 6491:19:10, 16 September 2024 (UTC) 6457:19:08, 16 September 2024 (UTC) 6441:19:03, 16 September 2024 (UTC) 6420:2024-09 Postmodern Neo-Marxism 6415:18:31, 16 September 2024 (UTC) 6388:21:45, 19 September 2024 (UTC) 6363:20:17, 16 September 2024 (UTC) 6353:19:00, 16 September 2024 (UTC) 6323:14:55, 16 September 2024 (UTC) 6313:14:06, 16 September 2024 (UTC) 6291:04:53, 16 September 2024 (UTC) 6275:22:20, 15 September 2024 (UTC) 6261:22:04, 15 September 2024 (UTC) 6236:22:41, 15 September 2024 (UTC) 6217:22:15, 15 September 2024 (UTC) 6198:21:59, 15 September 2024 (UTC) 6161:21:11, 15 September 2024 (UTC) 6132:17:04, 15 September 2024 (UTC) 6118:16:30, 15 September 2024 (UTC) 6079:16:10, 15 September 2024 (UTC) 6065:01:38, 15 September 2024 (UTC) 6035:12:07, 16 September 2024 (UTC) 6020:02:19, 15 September 2024 (UTC) 6015:and a policy would be helpful— 6007:00:05, 15 September 2024 (UTC) 5946:22:09, 14 September 2024 (UTC) 5932:and especially the section on 5923:21:23, 14 September 2024 (UTC) 5898:13:37, 14 September 2024 (UTC) 5829:20:53, 14 September 2024 (UTC) 5800:13:44, 13 September 2024 (UTC) 5786:13:40, 13 September 2024 (UTC) 5768:11:21, 13 September 2024 (UTC) 5753:20:20, 12 September 2024 (UTC) 5713:18:05, 16 September 2024 (UTC) 5689:17:53, 16 September 2024 (UTC) 5670:08:23, 12 September 2024 (UTC) 5631:22:32, 11 September 2024 (UTC) 5608:10:21, 11 September 2024 (UTC) 5584:10:11, 11 September 2024 (UTC) 5533:18:24, 12 September 2024 (UTC) 5503:15:55, 12 September 2024 (UTC) 5489:15:47, 12 September 2024 (UTC) 5474:15:31, 12 September 2024 (UTC) 5459:15:07, 12 September 2024 (UTC) 5429:12:54, 12 September 2024 (UTC) 5415:00:06, 12 September 2024 (UTC) 5294:23:16, 11 September 2024 (UTC) 5224:22:12, 11 September 2024 (UTC) 5132:is absolutely, 100%, textbook 5087:19:53, 11 September 2024 (UTC) 5067:18:07, 11 September 2024 (UTC) 4881:17:21, 11 September 2024 (UTC) 4850:16:26, 11 September 2024 (UTC) 4775:For your first four sentences 4771:10:19, 11 September 2024 (UTC) 4748:07:33, 11 September 2024 (UTC) 4725:07:13, 11 September 2024 (UTC) 4702:04:37, 11 September 2024 (UTC) 4663:03:43, 11 September 2024 (UTC) 4648:03:26, 11 September 2024 (UTC) 4608:03:18, 11 September 2024 (UTC) 4594:em. added. You can request at 4526:03:20, 11 September 2024 (UTC) 4455:00:55, 11 September 2024 (UTC) 4418:20:37, 10 September 2024 (UTC) 4331:19:55, 10 September 2024 (UTC) 4307:19:19, 10 September 2024 (UTC) 4283:19:31, 10 September 2024 (UTC) 4253:19:25, 10 September 2024 (UTC) 4222:19:16, 10 September 2024 (UTC) 4191:19:10, 10 September 2024 (UTC) 4162:18:46, 10 September 2024 (UTC) 4136:18:42, 10 September 2024 (UTC) 4051:18:30, 10 September 2024 (UTC) 4024:18:14, 10 September 2024 (UTC) 3981:18:05, 10 September 2024 (UTC) 3949:17:43, 10 September 2024 (UTC) 3923:17:39, 10 September 2024 (UTC) 3908:17:30, 10 September 2024 (UTC) 3861:19:17, 11 September 2024 (UTC) 3770:Office for Science and Society 3766:"Can You Trust Dr. Knowledge?" 3497:just got added as a source to 3359:rather than a language family. 3253:rather than a language family" 3120:that a lack of brain activity 2827:Garde, Gerge (June 27, 2001). 1735:Superseded theories in science 13: 1: 8511:Similar arguments being made 6947:prepared to work in this area 6731:this from a major DC law firm 6661:reporting on the law itself. 6520:Hello, I created the article 6497:Visite fortuitement prolongée 6433:Visite fortuitement prolongée 6407:Visite fortuitement prolongée 6188:is not the way to go either. 5723:Lost Cause of the Confederacy 4948:none of which explicitly said 4543:Who is disputing what about: 4368:Ethnographers suggested that 4095:Ethnographers suggested that 3884:17:51, 8 September 2024 (UTC) 3804:13:11, 7 September 2024 (UTC) 3746:16:09, 8 September 2024 (UTC) 3728:18:09, 7 September 2024 (UTC) 3713:11:13, 6 September 2024 (UTC) 3694:09:39, 6 September 2024 (UTC) 3667:03:13, 6 September 2024 (UTC) 3599:18:48, 5 September 2024 (UTC) 3563:19:04, 4 September 2024 (UTC) 3538:18:27, 3 September 2024 (UTC) 3529:00:29, 3 September 2024 (UTC) 3510:20:28, 2 September 2024 (UTC) 3474:18:25, 6 September 2024 (UTC) 3450:11:25, 6 September 2024 (UTC) 3438:11:17, 6 September 2024 (UTC) 3420:18:46, 5 September 2024 (UTC) 3383:11:14, 6 September 2024 (UTC) 3371:11:11, 6 September 2024 (UTC) 3343:15:14, 3 September 2024 (UTC) 3326:20:42, 2 September 2024 (UTC) 3209:Possible template suggestion? 3193:08:48, 7 September 2024 (UTC) 3180:15:41, 6 September 2024 (UTC) 3165:13:54, 6 September 2024 (UTC) 3151:11:36, 6 September 2024 (UTC) 3115:11:20, 6 September 2024 (UTC) 3032:20:11, 2 September 2024 (UTC) 2642:the Order of the Solar Temple 2126:is proposed for splitting by 2084:is proposed for splitting by 2065:List of common misconceptions 588: 188:Biographies of living persons 8760:Knowledge dispute resolution 7798:Please see my response here. 6327:I mean, the existing policy 6226:, after all, is policy too. 5960:litter boxes in schools hoax 4907:you are yet to cite a source 2908:" (Hall & Schuyler 2000) 2863:Introvigne, Massimo (1995). 7: 7946:Secondary by our standard: 7354:No, you explicitly stated: 7197:Can you please explain how 6587:legally required compliance 5613:Immigrants eating pets hoax 5517:To anyone else reading this 5173:have a problem with saying 5105:summary conclusion is that 4994:already made in my proposal 4840:over the reliable sources? 3283:10:11, 30 August 2024 (UTC) 3097:10:26, 30 August 2024 (UTC) 3083:02:33, 30 August 2024 (UTC) 2965:23:52, 29 August 2024 (UTC) 2951:23:51, 29 August 2024 (UTC) 2895:20:54, 29 August 2024 (UTC) 2800:11:25, 29 August 2024 (UTC) 2764:11:16, 29 August 2024 (UTC) 2744:10:24, 29 August 2024 (UTC) 2728:10:36, 29 August 2024 (UTC) 2713:10:23, 29 August 2024 (UTC) 2695:10:10, 29 August 2024 (UTC) 2664:09:44, 29 August 2024 (UTC) 2640:sects such as Scientology, 2031:is proposed for merging to 1985:is proposed for merging to 1939:is proposed for merging to 1893:is proposed for merging to 1847:is proposed for merging to 1564:Myers–Briggs Type Indicator 1476:Myers–Briggs Type Indicator 1434:Myers–Briggs Type Indicator 1392:Myers–Briggs Type Indicator 1178:Category:Empirical evidence 702:sections older than 20 days 620:, make sure you understand 10: 8776: 8491:Reverted and watchlisted. 6573:. The law spells out that 6527:the article talk page here 6122:Then I'd say it's a hoax. 5936:. We follow the sources. 5679:an insult to the stories! 5649:Genesis creation narrative 5638:Genesis creation narrative 5160:my proposed lede paragraph 4558:. Oxford University Press. 3008:Cambridge University Press 1093:Category:Fictional witches 592: 556:Discussions for discussion 35: 7912:news reporting is primary 7785: 7742: 7695: 7233:Atomic Energy Act of 1954 6636:United States Code of Law 6557:The article is not about 6405:. Could you take a look? 5574:I've started a discussion 5393:brought up this map, and 5099:. Imagine I were to say: 5000:for you to demand that I 4983:late 1800s? As I said in 4777:As has ... due proportion 3837:, etc. all play a part. 3760:Interesting source here: 3736:may be a good reference. 3122:as the researchers see it 1085:Categories for discussion 871:was nominated for DYK by 811:Today's featured articles 784: 765:no original research rule 687: 683: 587: 582: 564: 439: 371: 288: 180: 99: 80: 18:Knowledge:Fringe theories 8089:I see a lot of links to 8011:, just at a glance. -- 7309:or inventors to cite on 6991:not our job to challenge 6973:United States government 6638:, passed as part of the 6516:, NPOV, FRINGE and UNDUE 6169:or "baseless assertion" 5952:COVID-19 lab leak theory 5365:without quoting anything 2808:These are your sources: 2783:, in which he says this: 1543:Template:MBTI Instrument 1455:Template:Mtbi instrument 1371:Template:MBTI Archetypes 1318:Redirects for discussion 248:Scalable vector graphics 82:Knowledge's centralized 8224:Pentagon UAP task force 8065:UFO conspiracy theories 7857:UFO conspiracy theories 7136:"The article as written 7059:is supposed to be done? 6743:same legal expert again 6049:Seed oil misinformation 6045:COVID-19 misinformation 5735:The first sentence for 5074:The trumpet shall sound 4400:where you're trying to 4124:usually/typically/often 4037:and could also signify 4003:not actually in dispute 3426:Talk:Intelligent design 2996:Oxford University Press 2844:"Kenners van het kwaad" 852:Seed oil misinformation 92:formal review processes 8755:Knowledge noticeboards 6579:United States Congress 6481: 6429:Postmodern Neo-Marxism 6337: 5645:fairly lengthy dispute 4821:but, actually, they do 4582:which he describes as 4562: 4261:, on page 70, it says 4197:new religious movement 3993:, my apologies. I see 3792: 3700:bit of a crash course 2849:De Groene Amsterdammer 2703:ping because I forgot 2604:Lowercase sigmabot III 696:Lowercase sigmabot III 132:Centralized discussion 8161:Internal Revenue Code 7934:Knowledge:PRIMARYNEWS 7311:Invention Secrecy Act 7242:Invention Secrecy Act 7095:That is your opinion; 6462: 6394:2024-09 Yuri Bezmenov 6332: 6175:or "debunked claims" 4934:, which goes against 4545: 4085:Secondly, yes, cargo 3787: 3612:Chinese folk religion 3605:Chinese folk religion 3546:People in the Balkans 3067:" Reference 2 says, " 2790:most of the sources. 2644:and Heaven's Gate. " 1821:Articles to be merged 1676:Requests for comments 1585:Good article nominees 1518:Robert F. Kennedy Jr. 894:Articles for deletion 551:WikiProject proposals 450:Committee noticeboard 399:Personal restrictions 384:Contributor copyright 223:Neutral point of view 8170:United States Senate 6470:Personal information 6053:Ebola misinformation 5958:) vs a "hoax" (e.g. 5643:There seems to be a 5513:written in a summary 5312:your direct response 4932:without any citation 4573:The Melanesian World 3995:Austronesier's reply 3927:(In particular, per 2935:" (Chyrissides 1999) 2058:Articles to be split 1941:Somatic experiencing 1813:on 16 Sep 2024; see 1653:was GA nominated by 1611:was GA nominated by 1067:on 18 Sep 2024; see 509:Requests for comment 425:Requests for comment 389:Edit warring and 3RR 379:Conflict of interest 181:Articles and content 8493:Firefangledfeathers 8067:article where, per 7910:You are aware that 7430:What part requires 7139:is a stalking horse 6536:User:Allan Nonymous 6447:I have no opinion. 5695:The Big Bang Theory 4834:clearly and plainly 4832:Given sources that 4226:I would agree that 2982:), 2012) says they 1849:Esoteric Neo-Nazism 1828:Occultism in Nazism 8175:Very Polite Person 8050:Very Polite Person 8013:Very Polite Person 7898:Very Polite Person 7833:Very Polite Person 7802:Very Polite Person 7760:Very Polite Person 7717:Very Polite Person 7665:Very Polite Person 7499:Very Polite Person 7470:Very Polite Person 7440:Very Polite Person 7402:Very Polite Person 7366:Very Polite Person 7315:Very Polite Person 7289:Very Polite Person 7246:Very Polite Person 7036:Very Polite Person 6977:Very Polite Person 6933:Very Polite Person 6931:as a concept? -- 6892:Very Polite Person 6859:Very Polite Person 6821:Very Polite Person 6750:Very Polite Person 6666:Very Polite Person 6598:appropriate weight 6172:or "false claims" 6124:Gråbergs Gråa Sång 6071:Gråbergs Gråa Sång 5817:American Civil War 5741:American Civil War 5177:because that is a 4905:yet though, since 4860:required by policy 3772:. 6 September 2024 2633:Another source: " 643: 635: 619: 409:Contentious topics 208:Dispute resolution 196:Questions on media 8337:Sahaja Yoga again 8222:It's not OR that 7231:scheme under the 6596:, without giving 6013:descriptive title 5988:conspiracy theory 5930:WP:Article titles 5654:dramatic rewrites 5446:very disapproving 5198:(Polynesia), and 5051: 4924:not the situation 4295: 4061:borrowed the term 3821:and scripts like 3503:Talk:Göbekli Tepe 3355:that Altaic is a 3261: 3260: 2988:Brill (publisher) 2611: 2610: 2140: 2124: 2098: 2082: 2049: 2029: 2003: 1987:Triskaidekaphobia 1983: 1957: 1937: 1911: 1891: 1865: 1845: 1812: 1796: 1772: 1752: 1716: 1700: 1667: 1651: 1625: 1609: 1580: 1560: 1534: 1514: 1492: 1472: 1450: 1430: 1408: 1388: 1362: 1346:Eliezer Yudkowsky 1342: 1305: 1289: 1256: 1240: 1211: 1195: 1169: 1153: 1127: 1111: 1080: 1066: 1047: 1031: 1006: 986: 970: 948: 934: 918: 885: 869: 835: 802: 801: 728:Additional notes: 725: 724: 704: 678: 677: 641: 636:. Our purpose is 630: 624:and particularly 617: 575: 574: 404:General sanctions 243:Resource requests 228:Original research 22:(Redirected from 8767: 8705:Psychologist Guy 8653: 8644: 8625: 8593: 8586: 8536: 8469: 8451: 8388: 8379: 8360: 8318: 8300: 8048:'s history. -- 7884:UAPDA#References 7791: 7789: 7783: 7779: 7756:UAPDA#References 7748: 7746: 7740: 7736: 7701: 7699: 7693: 7689: 7207:UAPDA#References 6794: 6787: 6710: 6706: 6625:reliable sources 6479: 5883: 5865: 5814: 5710: 5703: 5628: 5626: 5605: 5581: 5009: 4811:(you and I) are 4803:, that would be 4754:not a dictionary 4635:Lindstrom (2018) 4576: 4560: 4559: 4289: 3876:Partofthemachine 3859: 3781: 3779: 3777: 3710: 3653: 3635: 3595: 3589: 3586: 3583: 3580: 3447: 3416: 3410: 3407: 3404: 3401: 3380: 3340: 3280: 3265:Altaic languages 3256: 3228: 3227: 3220: 3190: 3148: 3094: 3075: 2874: 2853: 2838: 2823: 2672: 2647:(emphasis mine) 2606: 2590: 2162: 2154: 2130: 2125: 2110: 2088: 2083: 2068: 2059: 2039: 2030: 2015: 1993: 1984: 1969: 1966:Thirteenth floor 1947: 1938: 1923: 1901: 1892: 1877: 1855: 1846: 1831: 1822: 1802: 1797: 1782: 1762: 1754:move request to 1753: 1738: 1732: 1726: 1706: 1701: 1686: 1677: 1657: 1652: 1637: 1634:Roswell incident 1615: 1610: 1595: 1586: 1570: 1561: 1546: 1524: 1515: 1500: 1482: 1473: 1458: 1440: 1431: 1416: 1398: 1389: 1374: 1352: 1343: 1328: 1319: 1309: 1295: 1290: 1275: 1269: 1260: 1246: 1241: 1226: 1220: 1201: 1196: 1181: 1159: 1154: 1139: 1117: 1112: 1097: 1086: 1078: 1071: 1056: 1054:Northamerica1000 1037: 1032: 1017: 1011: 1003: 998: 991: 976: 971: 956: 946: 939: 924: 919: 904: 901:Steuart Campbell 895: 875: 870: 855: 846: 836: 821: 812: 797: 777: 769:this noticeboard 735:reliable sources 720: 705: 693: 685: 684: 674: 661: 655: 652:subst:ftn-notice 612: 605: 589: 580: 579: 238:Reliable sources 172:User permissions 152:Main Page errors 147:Interface admins 137:Closure requests 67: 60: 53: 44: 43: 27: 8775: 8774: 8770: 8769: 8768: 8766: 8765: 8764: 8745: 8744: 8676: 8634: 8611: 8607: 8604: 8589: 8582: 8551: 8545:Can anyone get 8534: 8442: 8426: 8424: 8369: 8346: 8342: 8339: 8291: 8275: 8272: 7781: 7775: 7773: 7738: 7732: 7730: 7691: 7685: 7683: 7655:unique sources 7229:restricted data 7014:; the law says 6790: 6783: 6735:Stephanie Barna 6708: 6594:fringe theories 6518: 6474: 6449:Generalrelative 6422: 6396: 6345:Generalrelative 6253:Generalrelative 6228:Generalrelative 6190:Generalrelative 6110:Generalrelative 5905: 5856: 5840: 5837: 5808: 5733: 5706: 5699: 5658:WP:FALSEBALANCE 5641: 5636:Eyes needed on 5624: 5622: 5615: 5603: 5593: 5579: 5571: 5521:Talk:Cargo cult 5389:Dude, come on. 5374:have not cited 5339:, I agree with 5196:Society Islands 5192:Gilbert Islands 5179:WP:FALSEBALANCE 4985:a previous post 4561: 4552: 4152:Western goods. 4007:Talk:Cargo cult 3891: 3869: 3838: 3817:, efforts like 3775: 3773: 3764: 3758: 3708: 3674: 3626: 3610: 3607: 3593: 3587: 3584: 3581: 3578: 3576:are enforced". 3548: 3516:archaeologists. 3488: 3445: 3414: 3408: 3405: 3402: 3399: 3378: 3338: 3278: 3257: 3243: 3229: 3225: 3211: 3188: 3146: 3134:Well, there is 3092: 3073: 3045:The article on 3043: 2916:" (Bogdan 2011) 2666: 2620: 2602: 2591: 2585: 2167: 2150: 2149: 2109: 2067: 2057: 2037:VenusFeuerFalle 2033:Islam and magic 2014: 1968: 1922: 1920:Peter A. Levine 1876: 1830: 1820: 1781: 1737: 1730: 1725:Requested moves 1724: 1685: 1675: 1636: 1594: 1584: 1545: 1499: 1497:Bobby Brainworm 1457: 1415: 1373: 1327: 1317: 1274: 1267: 1225: 1218: 1180: 1157:BlasterOfHouses 1138: 1096: 1084: 1016: 1009: 1001: 955: 903: 893: 854: 844: 820: 810: 806: 798: 792: 775: 721: 715: 692: 659: 649: 646: 616: 615: 608: 601: 597: 576: 571: 560: 477:False positives 435: 367: 284: 233:Pending changes 218:Fringe theories 176: 106:Administrators 95: 76: 71: 41: 34: 29: 28: 21: 20: 12: 11: 5: 8773: 8763: 8762: 8757: 8743: 8742: 8693:Ig Nobel Prize 8675: 8670: 8655: 8654: 8609:Daniele Ganser 8603: 8602:Daniele Ganser 8600: 8599: 8598: 8550: 8547:Newspapers.com 8543: 8542: 8541: 8528: 8527: 8508: 8507: 8423: 8420: 8401: 8400: 8389: 8338: 8335: 8320: 8319: 8271: 8268: 8267: 8266: 8265: 8264: 8263: 8262: 8261: 8260: 8259: 8258: 8257: 8256: 8148: 8118: 8117: 8116: 8115: 8114: 8113: 8112: 8111: 8110: 8109: 8087: 8086: 8085: 8084: 8083: 7944: 7943: 7942: 7894: 7893: 7892: 7880: 7879: 7878: 7848: 7847: 7846: 7845: 7844: 7843: 7828: 7827: 7826: 7825: 7824: 7823: 7822: 7821: 7820: 7819: 7818: 7817: 7816: 7815: 7814: 7813: 7812: 7652: 7651: 7650: 7575: 7574: 7573: 7572: 7571: 7570: 7569: 7568: 7567: 7566: 7565: 7564: 7563: 7562: 7561: 7560: 7559: 7558: 7557: 7556: 7555: 7554: 7553: 7552: 7551: 7550: 7549: 7548: 7547: 7546: 7545: 7531: 7516: 7513:WP:NOTCENSORED 7362: 7361: 7360: 7299: 7285: 7217: 7216: 7215: 7195: 7194: 7193: 7192: 7191: 7190: 7189: 7188: 7187: 7186: 7185: 7184: 7183: 7182: 7181: 7180: 7179: 7178: 7177: 7149: 7146: 7143: 7140: 7137: 7134: 7133: 7132: 7131: 7130: 7129: 7128: 7127: 7126: 7125: 7124: 7096: 7093: 7090: 7087: 7084: 7083: 7082: 7060: 7049: 7023: 6924: 6855: 6854: 6853: 6746: 6700: 6699: 6698: 6617:eminent domain 6612: 6611: 6608: 6605: 6517: 6511: 6510: 6509: 6508: 6507: 6473: 6459: 6421: 6418: 6395: 6392: 6391: 6390: 6370: 6369: 6368: 6367: 6366: 6365: 6300: 6299: 6298: 6297: 6296: 6295: 6294: 6293: 6283:--Animalparty! 6242: 6241: 6240: 6239: 6238: 6204: 6141: 6140: 6139: 6138: 6137: 6136: 6135: 6134: 6107: 6106: 6105: 6094: 6040: 6039: 6038: 6037: 6022: 5996: 5995: 5994: 5993: 5992: 5991: 5990: 5984: 5975: 5963: 5948: 5904: 5901: 5885: 5884: 5836: 5833: 5832: 5831: 5806: 5805: 5804: 5803: 5802: 5732: 5719: 5718: 5717: 5716: 5715: 5640: 5634: 5625:Rhododendrites 5614: 5611: 5592: 5590:Koko (gorilla) 5587: 5570: 5567: 5566: 5565: 5564: 5563: 5562: 5561: 5560: 5559: 5558: 5557: 5556: 5555: 5554: 5553: 5552: 5551: 5550: 5549: 5548: 5547: 5546: 5545: 5544: 5543: 5542: 5541: 5540: 5539: 5538: 5537: 5536: 5535: 5509: 5508: 5507: 5506: 5505: 5383: 5357: 5354:WP:COATRACKing 5330: 5319: 5300: 5258: 5257: 5256: 5255: 5254: 5253: 5252: 5251: 5250: 5249: 5248: 5247: 5246: 5245: 5244: 5243: 5242: 5241: 5240: 5239: 5238: 5237: 5236: 5235: 5210:these numbers 5194:(Micronesia), 5182: 5166:but not always 5124: 5092: 4918:and how to be 4580: 4579: 4578: 4577: 4550: 4541: 4540: 4539: 4538: 4537: 4536: 4535: 4534: 4533: 4532: 4531: 4530: 4529: 4528: 4427: 4426: 4425: 4424: 4423: 4422: 4421: 4420: 4287: 4286: 4285: 4255: 4177: 4176: 4175: 4174: 4173: 4172: 4171: 4170: 4169: 4168: 4167: 4166: 4165: 4164: 4108: 3890: 3887: 3868: 3865: 3864: 3863: 3783: 3782: 3757: 3754: 3753: 3752: 3751: 3750: 3749: 3748: 3673: 3670: 3655: 3654: 3606: 3603: 3602: 3601: 3547: 3544: 3543: 3542: 3541: 3540: 3517: 3487: 3484: 3483: 3482: 3481: 3480: 3479: 3478: 3477: 3476: 3391: 3390: 3389: 3388: 3387: 3386: 3385: 3315: 3301: 3263:I'm using the 3259: 3258: 3242: 3232: 3230: 3223: 3217: 3210: 3207: 3206: 3205: 3204: 3203: 3202: 3201: 3200: 3199: 3198: 3197: 3196: 3195: 3132: 3131: 3130: 3042: 3036: 3035: 3034: 2971: 2970: 2969: 2968: 2967: 2938: 2937: 2936: 2929: 2917: 2909: 2877: 2876: 2875: 2856: 2855: 2854: 2839: 2824: 2806: 2805: 2804: 2803: 2802: 2787: 2784: 2777:this interview 2772: 2769: 2752: 2732: 2731: 2730: 2715: 2682: 2678: 2677:intervened in? 2619: 2612: 2609: 2608: 2596: 2593: 2592: 2587: 2583: 2581: 2578: 2577: 2572: 2532: 2492: 2452: 2412: 2372: 2332: 2292: 2252: 2212: 2169: 2168: 2163: 2157: 2146: 2145: 2105:23 Sep 2023 – 2103: 2063:08 Jul 2024 – 2055: 2054: 2010:03 Mar 2024 – 2008: 1964:23 May 2024 – 1962: 1918:13 Jul 2024 – 1916: 1872:30 Jul 2024 – 1870: 1826:14 Aug 2024 – 1818: 1817: 1722: 1721: 1702:has an RfC by 1681:19 Sep 2024 – 1673: 1672: 1632:10 Mar 2024 – 1630: 1590:23 Aug 2024 – 1582: 1581: 1541:29 Aug 2024 – 1539: 1495:13 Sep 2024 – 1493: 1453:16 Sep 2024 – 1451: 1411:16 Sep 2024 – 1409: 1369:16 Sep 2024 – 1367: 1323:19 Sep 2024 – 1315: 1314: 1265: 1216: 1199:Smasongarrison 1176:01 Sep 2024 – 1174: 1134:13 Sep 2024 – 1132: 1090:21 Sep 2024 – 1082: 1081: 1048:was closed as 1007: 951:14 Sep 2024 – 949: 899:18 Sep 2024 – 891: 890: 850:09 Sep 2024 – 842: 841: 816:27 Sep 2024 – 809: 807: 805:Article alerts 804: 803: 800: 799: 795: 790: 787: 786: 782: 781: 780: 779: 772: 753: 746: 741:, but we also 723: 722: 717: 713: 711: 708: 707: 681: 680: 679: 676: 675: 618:Before posting 614: 613: 606: 598: 593: 585: 584: 578: 573: 572: 565: 562: 561: 559: 558: 553: 548: 547: 546: 541: 536: 531: 526: 521: 511: 506: 505: 504: 499: 497:Reference desk 494: 489: 481: 480: 479: 474: 464: 463: 462: 457: 452: 443: 441: 437: 436: 434: 433: 428: 418: 413: 412: 411: 406: 401: 391: 386: 381: 375: 373: 369: 368: 366: 365: 360: 359: 358: 353: 348: 343: 338: 333: 323: 318: 313: 308: 303: 298: 296:History merges 292: 290: 286: 285: 283: 282: 277: 275:Titleblacklist 272: 267: 266: 265: 260: 250: 245: 240: 235: 230: 225: 220: 215: 213:External links 210: 205: 204: 203: 198: 190: 184: 182: 178: 177: 175: 174: 169: 164: 159: 154: 149: 144: 139: 134: 129: 124: 119: 118: 117: 112: 103: 101: 97: 96: 81: 78: 77: 70: 69: 62: 55: 47: 32: 15: 9: 6: 4: 3: 2: 8772: 8761: 8758: 8756: 8753: 8752: 8750: 8741: 8737: 8733: 8729: 8726: 8723: 8720: 8717: 8716: 8715: 8714: 8710: 8706: 8702: 8698: 8694: 8689: 8687: 8682: 8680: 8674: 8669: 8668: 8664: 8660: 8652: 8651: 8647: 8642: 8638: 8633: 8632: 8628: 8623: 8619: 8615: 8610: 8606: 8605: 8597: 8594: 8592: 8587: 8585: 8579: 8575: 8571: 8570: 8569: 8568: 8564: 8560: 8556: 8548: 8540: 8537: 8530: 8529: 8526: 8522: 8518: 8514: 8510: 8509: 8506: 8502: 8498: 8494: 8490: 8489: 8488: 8487: 8483: 8479: 8475: 8470: 8467: 8463: 8459: 8455: 8450: 8446: 8441: 8437: 8433: 8429: 8419: 8418: 8414: 8410: 8406: 8399: 8397: 8395: 8393: 8390: 8387: 8386: 8382: 8377: 8373: 8368: 8367: 8363: 8358: 8354: 8350: 8345: 8341: 8340: 8334: 8333: 8329: 8325: 8316: 8312: 8308: 8304: 8299: 8295: 8290: 8286: 8282: 8278: 8274: 8273: 8255: 8251: 8247: 8243: 8239: 8238: 8237: 8233: 8229: 8225: 8221: 8220: 8219: 8215: 8211: 8208: 8205: 8201: 8200: 8199: 8195: 8191: 8186: 8185: 8184: 8180: 8176: 8171: 8166: 8162: 8157: 8153: 8149: 8147: 8143: 8139: 8135: 8134: 8133: 8129: 8125: 8120: 8119: 8108: 8104: 8100: 8096: 8092: 8088: 8082: 8078: 8074: 8070: 8066: 8061: 8060: 8059: 8055: 8051: 8047: 8042: 8041: 8040: 8036: 8032: 8028: 8024: 8023: 8022: 8018: 8014: 8010: 8007: 8004: 8001: 7998: 7995: 7992: 7989: 7986: 7982: 7979: 7976: 7973: 7970: 7967: 7963: 7960: 7957: 7954: 7951: 7948: 7945: 7941: 7938: 7937: 7935: 7931: 7930: 7929: 7925: 7921: 7917: 7913: 7909: 7908: 7907: 7903: 7899: 7895: 7891: 7888: 7887: 7885: 7881: 7877: 7874: 7873: 7872: 7871: 7870: 7866: 7862: 7858: 7854: 7850: 7849: 7842: 7838: 7834: 7829: 7811: 7807: 7803: 7799: 7796: 7795: 7794: 7790: 7788: 7780: 7778: 7771: 7770: 7769: 7765: 7761: 7757: 7753: 7752: 7751: 7747: 7745: 7737: 7735: 7728: 7727: 7726: 7722: 7718: 7714: 7710: 7706: 7705: 7704: 7700: 7698: 7690: 7688: 7680: 7676: 7675: 7674: 7670: 7666: 7662: 7658: 7653: 7648: 7647: 7646: 7645: 7644: 7640: 7636: 7632: 7628: 7624: 7623: 7622: 7618: 7614: 7610: 7605: 7601: 7600: 7599: 7595: 7591: 7587: 7583: 7579: 7576: 7544: 7540: 7536: 7532: 7529: 7525: 7521: 7517: 7514: 7510: 7509: 7508: 7504: 7500: 7495: 7494: 7493: 7489: 7485: 7481: 7480: 7479: 7475: 7471: 7466: 7465: 7464: 7460: 7456: 7451: 7450: 7449: 7445: 7441: 7437: 7433: 7429: 7428: 7427: 7423: 7419: 7416: 7413: 7412: 7411: 7407: 7403: 7399: 7395: 7394: 7393: 7389: 7385: 7381: 7377: 7376: 7375: 7371: 7367: 7363: 7359: 7356: 7355: 7353: 7352: 7351: 7347: 7343: 7338: 7334: 7330: 7326: 7325: 7324: 7320: 7316: 7312: 7308: 7304: 7300: 7298: 7294: 7290: 7286: 7283: 7279: 7278: 7277: 7273: 7269: 7265: 7261: 7260:fait accompli 7258:GNG is not a 7257: 7256: 7255: 7251: 7247: 7243: 7239: 7234: 7230: 7226: 7222: 7218: 7214: 7211: 7210: 7208: 7204: 7200: 7196: 7176: 7172: 7168: 7164: 7163: 7162: 7158: 7154: 7150: 7147: 7144: 7141: 7138: 7135: 7123: 7119: 7115: 7111: 7110: 7109: 7105: 7101: 7097: 7094: 7091: 7088: 7085: 7081: 7077: 7073: 7069: 7065: 7061: 7058: 7054: 7050: 7047: 7046: 7045: 7041: 7037: 7033: 7029: 7024: 7021: 7017: 7013: 7010: 7006: 7005: 7004: 7000: 6996: 6992: 6988: 6987: 6986: 6982: 6978: 6974: 6970: 6966: 6962: 6961: 6960: 6956: 6952: 6948: 6944: 6943: 6942: 6938: 6934: 6930: 6925: 6921: 6920: 6919: 6915: 6911: 6907: 6903: 6902: 6901: 6897: 6893: 6888: 6887: 6886: 6882: 6878: 6874: 6870: 6869: 6868: 6864: 6860: 6856: 6852: 6849: 6848: 6846: 6845: 6844: 6840: 6836: 6832: 6831: 6830: 6826: 6822: 6818: 6814: 6813: 6812: 6808: 6804: 6800: 6799: 6798: 6795: 6793: 6788: 6786: 6780: 6779: 6778: 6774: 6770: 6765: 6762:All kinds of 6761: 6760: 6759: 6755: 6751: 6747: 6744: 6740: 6736: 6732: 6728: 6724: 6720: 6716: 6713: 6712:118–31 (text) 6707: 6701: 6697: 6694: 6693: 6692: 6691: 6690: 6686: 6682: 6678: 6677: 6676: 6675: 6671: 6667: 6662: 6660: 6656: 6652: 6648: 6647: 6641: 6637: 6633: 6628: 6626: 6622: 6618: 6609: 6606: 6603: 6602: 6601: 6599: 6595: 6590: 6588: 6584: 6580: 6576: 6572: 6569:, called the 6568: 6567:United States 6564: 6561:, aliens or " 6560: 6555: 6553: 6549: 6545: 6541: 6537: 6533: 6529: 6528: 6523: 6515: 6506: 6502: 6498: 6494: 6493: 6492: 6488: 6484: 6480: 6478: 6471: 6467: 6460: 6458: 6454: 6450: 6445: 6444: 6443: 6442: 6438: 6434: 6430: 6425: 6417: 6416: 6412: 6408: 6404: 6403:Yuri Bezmenov 6399: 6389: 6385: 6381: 6376: 6372: 6371: 6364: 6361: 6356: 6355: 6354: 6350: 6346: 6342: 6336: 6330: 6326: 6325: 6324: 6321: 6317: 6316: 6315: 6314: 6310: 6306: 6292: 6288: 6284: 6280: 6279: 6278: 6277: 6276: 6272: 6268: 6264: 6263: 6262: 6258: 6254: 6250: 6248: 6246: 6243: 6237: 6233: 6229: 6225: 6220: 6219: 6218: 6214: 6210: 6205: 6201: 6200: 6199: 6195: 6191: 6187: 6183: 6179: 6177: 6174: 6171: 6168: 6165: 6164: 6163: 6162: 6158: 6154: 6150: 6146: 6133: 6129: 6125: 6121: 6120: 6119: 6115: 6111: 6108: 6104: 6102: 6098: 6095: 6093: 6091: 6088: 6084: 6083: 6082: 6081: 6080: 6076: 6072: 6068: 6067: 6066: 6062: 6058: 6054: 6050: 6046: 6042: 6041: 6036: 6032: 6028: 6023: 6021: 6018: 6014: 6010: 6009: 6008: 6004: 6000: 5997: 5989: 5985: 5983: 5979: 5978: 5976: 5974: 5970: 5969: 5967: 5966: 5964: 5961: 5957: 5953: 5949: 5947: 5943: 5939: 5935: 5934:WP:COMMONNAME 5931: 5927: 5926: 5925: 5924: 5921: 5916: 5914: 5910: 5900: 5899: 5895: 5891: 5881: 5877: 5873: 5869: 5864: 5860: 5855: 5851: 5847: 5843: 5839: 5838: 5830: 5826: 5822: 5818: 5812: 5807: 5801: 5797: 5793: 5789: 5788: 5787: 5783: 5779: 5778:Jo-Jo Eumerus 5776:and similar? 5775: 5774:this revision 5771: 5770: 5769: 5765: 5761: 5757: 5756: 5755: 5754: 5750: 5746: 5742: 5738: 5731: 5727: 5724: 5714: 5711: 5709: 5704: 5702: 5696: 5692: 5691: 5690: 5686: 5682: 5678: 5674: 5673: 5672: 5671: 5667: 5663: 5659: 5655: 5650: 5646: 5639: 5633: 5632: 5627: 5620: 5610: 5609: 5606: 5599: 5591: 5586: 5585: 5582: 5575: 5534: 5530: 5526: 5522: 5518: 5514: 5510: 5504: 5500: 5496: 5492: 5491: 5490: 5486: 5482: 5477: 5476: 5475: 5471: 5467: 5462: 5461: 5460: 5456: 5452: 5447: 5443: 5439: 5435: 5432: 5431: 5430: 5426: 5422: 5418: 5417: 5416: 5412: 5408: 5404: 5400: 5396: 5392: 5388: 5384: 5381: 5378:definitions, 5377: 5373: 5370: 5366: 5362: 5358: 5355: 5350: 5345: 5342: 5338: 5337:said early on 5334: 5331: 5328: 5323: 5320: 5317: 5313: 5308: 5304: 5301: 5297: 5296: 5295: 5291: 5287: 5282: 5281: 5280: 5279: 5278: 5277: 5276: 5275: 5274: 5273: 5272: 5271: 5270: 5269: 5268: 5267: 5266: 5265: 5264: 5263: 5262: 5261: 5260: 5259: 5232: 5227: 5226: 5225: 5221: 5217: 5213: 5209: 5207: 5201: 5197: 5193: 5188: 5183: 5180: 5176: 5172: 5168: 5167: 5161: 5157: 5153: 5149: 5145: 5140: 5136: 5135: 5129: 5125: 5122: 5118: 5114: 5112: 5108: 5104: 5098: 5093: 5090: 5089: 5088: 5084: 5080: 5075: 5070: 5069: 5068: 5064: 5060: 5055: 5049: 5046: 5043: 5040: 5037: 5034: 5031: 5028: 5025: 5022: 5019: 5016: 5013: 5007: 5003: 4999: 4995: 4991: 4986: 4981: 4977: 4973: 4969: 4965: 4961: 4958:violation of 4957: 4953: 4949: 4945: 4941: 4937: 4933: 4929: 4925: 4921: 4917: 4912: 4908: 4904: 4900: 4896: 4892: 4888: 4884: 4883: 4882: 4878: 4874: 4869: 4865: 4861: 4857: 4853: 4852: 4851: 4847: 4843: 4839: 4835: 4831: 4826: 4822: 4818: 4814: 4810: 4806: 4802: 4798: 4796: 4790: 4788: 4782: 4778: 4774: 4773: 4772: 4768: 4764: 4759: 4755: 4751: 4750: 4749: 4745: 4741: 4737: 4736:this abstract 4732: 4728: 4727: 4726: 4722: 4718: 4715: 4712: 4708: 4707:WP:NOABSTRACT 4705: 4704: 4703: 4699: 4695: 4690: 4686: 4682: 4678: 4674: 4670: 4666: 4665: 4664: 4660: 4656: 4651: 4650: 4649: 4645: 4641: 4636: 4632: 4628: 4624: 4620: 4616: 4612: 4611: 4610: 4609: 4605: 4601: 4597: 4593: 4591: 4587: 4574: 4569: 4568: 4567: 4566: 4565: 4557: 4549: 4544: 4527: 4523: 4519: 4514: 4511: 4507: 4504: 4501: 4498: 4495: 4492: 4489: 4486: 4483: 4480: 4477: 4474: 4470: 4466: 4462: 4461:you suggested 4458: 4457: 4456: 4452: 4448: 4444: 4439: 4438: 4437: 4436: 4435: 4434: 4433: 4432: 4431: 4430: 4429: 4428: 4419: 4415: 4411: 4407: 4403: 4399: 4394: 4389: 4385: 4381: 4377: 4373: 4371: 4365: 4361: 4357: 4353: 4348: 4344: 4339: 4334: 4333: 4332: 4328: 4324: 4319: 4314: 4310: 4309: 4308: 4304: 4300: 4293: 4292:edit conflict 4288: 4284: 4280: 4276: 4272: 4268: 4264: 4260: 4256: 4254: 4250: 4246: 4242: 4237: 4233: 4229: 4225: 4224: 4223: 4219: 4215: 4211: 4207: 4203: 4198: 4194: 4193: 4192: 4188: 4184: 4179: 4178: 4163: 4159: 4155: 4151: 4147: 4143: 4139: 4138: 4137: 4133: 4129: 4125: 4121: 4117: 4113: 4109: 4105: 4100: 4098: 4092: 4088: 4084: 4082: 4078: 4073: 4066: 4062: 4058: 4054: 4053: 4052: 4048: 4044: 4040: 4036: 4032: 4027: 4026: 4025: 4021: 4017: 4012: 4008: 4004: 4000: 3996: 3992: 3988: 3984: 3983: 3982: 3978: 3974: 3970: 3966: 3961: 3957: 3952: 3951: 3950: 3946: 3942: 3938: 3934: 3930: 3926: 3925: 3924: 3920: 3916: 3912: 3911: 3910: 3909: 3905: 3901: 3896: 3886: 3885: 3881: 3877: 3873: 3867:Darryl Cooper 3862: 3857: 3853: 3849: 3845: 3841: 3836: 3832: 3828: 3827:WP:CITEUNSEEN 3824: 3820: 3816: 3812: 3808: 3807: 3806: 3805: 3801: 3797: 3791: 3786: 3771: 3767: 3763: 3762: 3761: 3747: 3743: 3739: 3735: 3731: 3730: 3729: 3725: 3721: 3716: 3715: 3714: 3711: 3703: 3698: 3697: 3696: 3695: 3691: 3687: 3683: 3679: 3669: 3668: 3664: 3660: 3651: 3647: 3643: 3639: 3634: 3630: 3625: 3621: 3617: 3613: 3609: 3608: 3600: 3596: 3590: 3575: 3574:WP:WALLOFTEXT 3571: 3567: 3566: 3565: 3564: 3560: 3556: 3552: 3539: 3536: 3535:Donald Albury 3532: 3531: 3530: 3526: 3522: 3518: 3514: 3513: 3512: 3511: 3508: 3507:Donald Albury 3504: 3500: 3496: 3495:Daily Express 3492: 3475: 3471: 3467: 3462: 3457: 3453: 3452: 3451: 3448: 3441: 3440: 3439: 3435: 3431: 3427: 3423: 3422: 3421: 3417: 3411: 3396: 3392: 3384: 3381: 3374: 3373: 3372: 3368: 3364: 3360: 3358: 3353: 3350: 3346: 3345: 3344: 3341: 3333: 3330:I think that 3329: 3328: 3327: 3323: 3319: 3316: 3314: 3312: 3308: 3302: 3299: 3295: 3291: 3287: 3286: 3285: 3284: 3281: 3272: 3270: 3266: 3254: 3252: 3246: 3240: 3236: 3231: 3222: 3221: 3218: 3215: 3194: 3191: 3183: 3182: 3181: 3177: 3173: 3168: 3167: 3166: 3162: 3158: 3154: 3153: 3152: 3149: 3142: 3137: 3133: 3129: 3126: 3125: 3123: 3118: 3117: 3116: 3112: 3108: 3104: 3100: 3099: 3098: 3095: 3087: 3086: 3085: 3084: 3080: 3076: 3070: 3066: 3061: 3060: 3056: 3050: 3049: 3040: 3033: 3029: 3025: 3021: 3017: 3013: 3009: 3005: 3001: 2997: 2993: 2989: 2985: 2981: 2977: 2972: 2966: 2962: 2958: 2954: 2953: 2952: 2948: 2944: 2939: 2934: 2930: 2927: 2923: 2918: 2915: 2910: 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