User talk:Allreet - Knowledge

1893:

than everyone else, and chooses the one they think the best of all. (This is what "aristocracy" literally means: "rule of the best.") Elections were ways that mercenary armies chose their commanders, or nobles vied for the support of future retainers. The democratic approach—employed widely in the ancient world, but also in Renaissance cities like Florence—was lottery, or, as it was sometimes called, "sortition." Essentially, the procedure was to take the names of anyone in the community willing to hold public office, and then, after screening them for basic competence, choose their names at random. This ensured all competent and interested parties had an equal chance of holding public office. It also minimalized factionalism, since there was no point making promises to win over key constituencies if one was to be chosen by lot. (Elections, by contract, fostered factionalism, for obvious reasons.) It’s striking that while in the generations immediately before the French and American revolutions there was a lively debate among Enlightenment thinkers like Montesquieu and Rousseau on the relative merits of election and lottery, those creating the new revolutionary constitutions in the 1770s and 1780s did not consider using lotteries at all. The only use they found for lottery was in the jury system, and this was allowed to stand largely because it was already there, a tradition inherited from English common law. And even the jury system was compulsory, not voluntary; juries were (and still are) regularly informed that their role is not to consider the justice of the law, but only to judge the facts of evidence.

472:

major yippie and put his voice and career (media blacklisted him when he could have been a contender per Dylan) because of his protest and truth-driven chosen direction to speak up about civil rights and against the Vietnam War when neither was as yet fashionable or allowed. Anyway, that's kind of what I meant, but mainly talking about the similarities of the type of activist energy involved in both groups. Sam Adams would have gotten along well with Abbie Hoffman, I would think, and make the basis of a fine play (first act with the two of them on stage in discussion within a swing of emotions, and then some of their friends begin to drop by, and by the time Mama Cass sings you'd have Ben Franklin hitting on Joan Baez and Mary Travers). The RfC, I'll watch it as well but will probably comment if I think a commentable inaccuracy has entered the discussion.

427:

articles when I thanked you for the Phil Ochs film page, really nice articles (you've given Bob Dylan, who has just organized a large tour, nice presentations of Knowledge). Ochs was a large influence on me for lots of years and signed my draft card (which I soon burned) on the first anniversary of the '68 convention. Met him again just after that event as he was going into the Haymarket Bar at the Hilton, could have joined him for a drink (duh, just realized that I could have and had pineapple juice or something, what a maroon) but was only 19 (duh). The Founders were the Yippies of their time, and built something so great it took us to the Moon and freed people to create and act on their own thoughts and ideals. Nice to meet you in the midst of their memory.

2920:. What editors are missing in what they think is an obvious solution to split is that the navbox is about the four founding documents as a group. The topic presented is 'Historical American Founding Documents", as a unit. The navbox is collapsed, but editors see it and they might think it's presented opened on each page when in fact it is a typical multi-sectioned navbox. This one takes a bit more thinking than usual to realize its sweep, and that it is one of, if not the, best map to the founding documents on the web. Dividing it four ways scatters the concept to the four winds, and the encyclopedia is lesser for it. 1092:: That's so cool to know. My Knowledge name is taken from the name of a music program I've hosted on a public radio station for the past 20 years. It was picked by the person who started the program in 1995. I "inherited" the show and its title song six years later when the original host moved on. He's far more knowledgeable about music than I am, which means he also knows more about Cab Calloway's song. But I'm pretty sure he doesn't know the "real world" use of the term - or a least the one you just related. Now I have a good story to tell him - and my listeners. Thanks immensely. 1968:

then, is the balance? Graeber writes mostly about measures that were discussed but pointedly rejected. I did read a bit further and saw he considers our current legislative process peopled with aristocrats (lawyers) elected by the rich. I agree that's how it's turned out, but not because it's written into the Constitution or was anticipated by the framers, even though about half of them were lawyers. If their intent was aristocracy or a balance, why did they vote down the model proposed by Pinckney and Morris that would have given us a House of Commons balanced by a House of Lords?

846:

is, to just try things and see how they look. It's also a place where you can "draft" materials, either entire articles or sections of text you'd like to add to existing articles. But you can't access your sandbox until you set up your user page. So please start there. If you have any problems doing that, let's see if we can connect in real time. One way to do that is to "set an appointment" at a mutually agreeable time and then text back and forth on your talk page. So for example, we could agree to "meet" at 3 p.m. Eastern Standard Time (New York time) this Sunday. Or whenever.

502:

of the EST seminar that Jerry Rubin had talked him into taking, and he turned around and went to a bar. Seems like it could be a key scene in an Ochs' film (it'll come sometime, they've talked of it for years and Sean Penn owned the rights for awhile and wanted to play Ochs but aged out, and later there was talk of k.d. lang starring). Thanks, a play and semi-musical doesn't seem far-fetched. Dylan made a choice, and he wouldn't be exactly the Dylan we know if he had attended all the marches and did the full Woody (Guthrie and Ochs' archives are together).

1885:

after all, been fought on the principle of "no taxation without representation." Popular assemblies were eliminated altogether. The American colonies, of course, lacked any hereditary aristocracy. But by electing a temporary monarch, and temporary representatives, the framers argued they could instead create what they sometimes explicitly called a kind of "natural aristocracy," drawn from the educated and propertied classes who had the same sober concern for the public welfare that they felt characterized the Roman senate of Cicero and Cincinnatus.

587:." I know this relates to the New England Confederation - so no doubt this would be a good source for that page - but it raises this: If the term was used first in the 1600s in New England, doesn't that explain its "colloquial" use, its availability, a century later? IOW, the term had a precedent, didn't spring from the ether. A source making the direct tie would be preferred, but it's mention can still be made as a possibility, actually should be, regarding the term's origin in the Thirteen Colonies page. You would know better than I. 2472:. Exceeding the 3RR is only justified when there are out right errors, vandalism or policy violations. All you did was state your opinion and then turned around and made multiple reverts. This is not the first time I've had to deal with your multiple reverts, which is the only thing uncivil. All I did was restore the material I had added. This was simply an academic debate, nothing pressing or controversial and not a big deal until you decided to make it so. Disappointing that you had to resort to reverting. -- 3049: 155:: Well I'll be. I stand corrected and all I can say is "live and learn". I checked 50+ stations on the FCC database, and while a station's "Callsign:" listing never includes FM, the additional listing of the call letters on the FM Query page is consistent with the station titles in Knowledge. I initially thought this might be a random aberration of the FCC's website, but the FCC regulation doc Tdl1060 provided explains it all. BTW, I had added other "re-directs" to the wikilinks in the 2498: 1119: 280: 1793:, my pleasure. I must say the disputes here can be annoying. I just saw my dermatologist last week, and we joked about songs that fit what he did. I suggested a couple classics—"First Cut Is the Deepest", "Beauty Is Only Skin Deep", "I Got You Under My Skin"—so before my follow-up visit today, I looked up some other songs and found the WP category Songs About Diseases and Disorders. Among the listings was the Disney tune " 998:. When I was a kid I had a record of a train starting up, moving, going faster and faster and eventually pulling into a station. A two-sided record. I'd play it over and over. Long afterwards I met the father of a girl I was seeing, and he had a great miniature train layout and train collections. During his showing me his things I mentioned the record, and darn if he was the person who created it. A small world moment. 2973:, thanks. I'm holding off a bit before commenting again since I was accused of bludgeoning (but not too long, the discussion only lasts a week unless it's relisted) so haven't read the newest comments for a couple of days. Thanks, yes, the title did not specify which historical documents were being featured as a group and why (which could easily be missed by some editors who comment or have commented). 2782:. There are editors eyeing this navbox for deletion or splitting it up, although it hasn't been nominated as yet (the focus is now on another navbox which is up for deletion). To me this is one of the most interesting and full maps to the founding on the web, and is a complete guide to Knowledge's articles on the subject. Please keep track of it and surrounding events if you can locate them, thanks. 635: 199:", so my guess is the information is up to date. Note that the "call" in the URL does not reflect the "official" callsign so you do have to visit the FM Query page to determine whether the sign includes FM or not. If the Query pages are reliable as far as callsigns are concerned, I'm willing to verify all of them on the community radio list, which would probably take less than an hour. 88:@Stereorock: Callsigns do not include FM or AM. The FCC assigns the four letters after approving a license, and the AM/FM designation is tied to the station's frequency, not its callsign identity. Having gone through the process of starting a station, I am absolutely certain of that. In any case, please see the Knowledge article on the subject, specifically the section on Broadcasting: 159:, so I'll remove these to allow the official callsigns to display. However, the sentence in the lede needs to be modified. Also, to keep everything clear, I'd like to re-add the AM/FM designations to the Frequency listing, as long as nobody objects. I'd also like to add a note on this to the thread on the list's Talk page to make sure others know the issue is resolved. Thanks to all. 2823:, in the context of deleting the navbox regarding the signers of the Declaration of Independence the idea of splitting or deleting the Historical American Document navbox seems to be a major focus, even though it hasn't been alert-tagged (so it couldn't be broken up or deleted on the basis of that !vote without another discussion unless the tagging rules are tossed aside yet again). 769:

RfC and he should refrain from making related edits". My own error here is that I was incorrect regarding the timing involved; that is, you added the citation before I explained its irrelevance, so I fully understand now that you were mistaken about what the citation actually supported when you posted it. No hard feelings are in order then and hope there never will be.

2899:— As I'm sure you're aware, there is a major consensus to split the navbox. In light of this I suggested how the split should occur -- in simple fashion. I also left a final (hopefully) comment. Sorry to see the 'clean up gang', i.e.very few writers, try to scatter this navbox. Too often, unfortunately, they only manage to leave a train wreck in their wake. -- 2298:, Pulitzer Prize winning author from Stanford, points out it was only later, long after the Revolution, that people began looking at the phrase as a statement about individual equality, whereas at the time, it referred to "all people" being equal, thereby possessing the same right to form nations as others had done. I know that's nuanced so here, 1878:

assemblies with limited powers of their own. These assemblies selected from among aristocratic candidates for magistracies, and also chose two tribunes, who represented the interest of the plebeian class; tribunes could not vote or even enter the Senate (they sat just outside the doorway) but they were granted veto power over senatorial decisions.

1394:

learn—and admittedly my journey's been a short one—the more I question my ability to do any of this. So while spending a few hours with top constitutional experts (Amar is one of the most authoritative) may not be equivalent to a college course, these focused overviews are worth their weight, plus being a dweeb I find them immensely entertaining.

2142:

source (Burstein 2013, p. 201) indicates this was based on a 1789 memorandum, meaning it preceded what had just been discussed about the evolution of his thinking. In fact, the paragraph's second sentence flatly contradicts this: "he believed that blacks and whites were unlikely to co-exist peacefully", which was his view later in life.

445:, yeah, the ping pong game was getting tiresome, and as you alluded earlier, distracting from more fruitful tasks. Good to hear we have quite a bit in common. I went to the same military academy as Ochs, though a few years after he left so I never met him, nor of course Dylan. I did get to interview their fellow folkies 742:

meeting you over these discussions, hold no wikigrudge (a new word?), and since our 45 round fight began (ah the good ole days when boxers would go bare-knuckle for as many rounds as it took) I've upped my already good mental map and timeline of the early days of the founding and benefited greatly in knowledge gained.

2259:. It would have to have been the other way around since Paine's pamphlet was published in January 1776. I'll change the note to reflect this possibility (even though either way we don't have a source). One more observation: some of the article's sources are extremely obscure, making verification all but impossible. 1375:

Thanks. A belated Happy New Year, and what's interesting to me, as it seems much longer ago, is that our initial discussion of Galloway and the founding documents (Werther etc.) occurred just a year ago. Yes, seems longer, but a lot was said and much accomplished since. Been a nice and continuing ride, thanks.

2349: 2156:

Nice of you to make those comments on Madison. The coordinators on the FAC page are currently counting support/oppose opinions on the FAC assessment page, and they are not able to find a full statement of either support/oppose from your comment statements. Are there any more edits that could be added

1892:

In all previous European history, elections had been considered—as Aristotle had originally insisted—the quintessentially aristocratic mode of selecting public ocials. In elections, the populace chooses between a small number of usually professional politicians who claim to be wiser and more educated

1884:

The monarchical function was to be filled by a president elected by the Senate; the Senate was meant to represent the aristocratic interests of wealth, and Congress was to represent the democratic element. Its purview was largely to be confined to raising and spending money, since the Revolution had,

783:

Some very good topics being discussed, and I'll always have great respect for editors who have such interest in America's founding and founders. An era of world history that emerged from the minds and actions of men in collaboration expanding individual and group freedoms. Two shakes of a lambs tail

768:

I said nothing in the revert's edit summary that related to our previous discussions other than my concerns about the changes you were making to articles under discussion: "reverted irrelevant citation...the editor was informed of this and added it anyway...meanwhile, article's contentions are under

741:

My edit summary was in good faith, I misrecalled your words and thought you meant you analyzed the removed source much earlier and I'd forgotten. Added it at Association because I thought the entire sentence at foundingfaddas was included in the cite and not just half. I hope you realize I've enjoyed

726:

I'm not sure what to do with your latest RfC posting. While it's understandable you were mistaken regarding the citation you provided, your explanation seems to conflict with what you posted a day earlier in an edit summary. All such discussions could negatively affect the RfC process for no purpose.

426:

Thanks for putting this up instead of going back and forth again. Maybe we can hold off on doing that at the RfC except in replies to others, which I hope it gets. I'm surprised more editors didn't enter the discussion, as the page would seem to be one of the top pages in U.S. history. Looked at your

1971:

In any event, no major scholar I know of agrees with Graeber' conclusions—from a historical perspective. That doesn't mean he's wrong, but it does put him outside the mainstream, which should be our focus. BTW, I read his introduction and will probably order a copy. I was also saddened by his death,

1871:

The American War of Independence had been fought in the name of "the people," and all the framers felt that the "whole body of the people" had to be consulted at some point to make their revolution legitimate—but the entire purpose of the Constitution was to ensure that this form of consultation was

1815:

I can picture the album now. Annoying disputes annoy. But disputes about the founders and their place in American and world history are inevitable and those who wish to lessen the emphasis on what they did will continue. The deletion attempt of the main article may have been a good thing as it shows

1774:

Thanks for your determination and logical discussion points at the founder's homes category. I thought it should have been closed as Keep before the second relisting. It's usually the second relisting which devolves into scuffles and new see-if-this-sticks arguments and you continued to thoughtfully

1393:

I think it's important to watch some of these lectures, and particularly this one. Skimming books for passages that support what we'd like to add is not scholarship. Because of the vast body of literature that's available, even reading a few dozen works doth not a historian make. Frankly, the more I

1013:

Thanks. This is one of my favorite genres and the article, one of the best moments I've had here. The original was cut and pasted from elsewhere, was repetitive and had no sources. It now includes 800 songs, a similar number of citations, lord knows how many artists, and about 90,000 views per year.

845:

page. The first thing to do - as an exercise and for practical purposes - is to create your user page. The instructions are on the list of topics I provided on your talk page. Once you set up your user page, you can test editing there or in your "Sandbox". The sandbox is a sub-page for "play" - that

501:

The drinking and the mugging that ruined Ochs' vocal chords didn't help, and his downhill slide was as extreme as they come. He sang about it early on though, left a couple full and creative albums of a psyche on the way out before he took the whole trip. There's that moment where he got to the door

2453:

how these listings could be condensed. You ignored my previous suggestion, entirely, except to say that the Bibliography's length did not concern you. Well, 300,000 bytes with no end in sight is of concern to me. I also asked in my edit summary that we discuss these changes, and you ignored that as

2141:

I'm reviewing the Slavery section and found a sentence that would best be removed. After a detailed discussion of Madison's changing views, a paragraph ends with "Madison nevertheless thought that peaceful co-existence between the two racial groups could eventually be achieved in the long run." The

1471:

I have been assuming good faith throughout, except in the one instance above (acknowledged under Assume Good Faith). Thus, your accusation that I'm continuing to accuse you of acting in bad faith is misplaced. I suggested reading a relevant guideline that you apparently are not aware of. As for the

1374:

Looks good, and I'll probably watch the linked youtube lecture. First I've heard of the book, and am wondering if James Bevel is mentioned in the chapter on the Civil Rights Movement, talk about key omissions from most history books and discussions. Could you let me know when you receive your copy?

486:

The idea of Ben hitting on Joan or Mary is hilarious, as is your allusion to the woman challenged by gravity. Sam Adams as a Yippie or getting along with Abbie? Either is very plausible. Dylan went apolitical quite early on - he only did two "protest" albums. Phil was king of that realm, but as you

457:. I don't know if I'd describe the Founding Fathers as Yippies, though for sure they were protesters, ones who truly put their lives and fortunes on the line. Back to the RfC, I hope to hear from editors who know more about this than I do, so my intention is to sit back and let them have their say. 242:

The FM Query page lists four-letter signs at the top left under "Callsign:" and then the official callsign on the bolded line below. This line also includes the state abbreviation, city of license and service designation, which displays as a red button on the right. Clicking the button takes you to

79:

Callsigns issued by the F.C.C. sometimes DO have suffixes: -FM, -TV, -LP; in fact, the callsigns with -LP suffixes continue to display them on the list of community radio stations page! Please see 47CFR2.302. I saw nothing on the talk page about deleting said suffixes. The suffixes indicated in the

2429:. Any contested major deletion needs to be discussed, first, and a consensus established. Simply reverting a second time without a two way discussion is provoking an edit war. Please do the fair thing and discuss matters, as I've done on the Talk page, which you have not responded to thus far.. -- 326:

You are free to move the draft yourself by using the "Move" function as long as there is nothing that needs to be deleted to make way for it(there doesn't seem to be). The Move function is under the "more" tab at the top(if you are using the full desktop version). You should be 95-100% confident

2243:

More or less, the article isn't too bad. Highlighting Zinn and his criticism of sexism is facile, though it's not worth arguing about however lame-brained it might be. Also of interest regarding the Criticisms section is that much is based on references to works that were contemporaneous with the

1967:

As far as I can see, there are few elements in the Constitution that could be considered aristocratic. The Electoral College is one, but there are other reasons for that (communications at the time: how could someone in New Hampshire vote knowledgeably for a candidate in Maryland?) Where exactly,

1963:

since the framers were well aware of the history he mentions. Beyond a doubt, they did struggle with the question of monarchy and aristocracy versus republicanism and democracy. Yet at every turn they pointedly rejected the former. While the founders knew ancient history very well, they also were

1685:

Agreed, though a clarification is in order. As editors, we're supposed to lean over backwards to remain objective, applying the same discipline as journalists and scholars in documenting what sources say. What you're referring to applies to political arguments, which can't help but be subjective.

764:

The proper place for discussing the revert was either in the RfC where I explained why the citation was not valid or in another section of the talk page. Instead you created an edit (that changed nothing) solely for the purpose of entering the following edit summary: "answer to last edit summary,

471:

Well, at least in the vicinity of Yippies if Yippies had money and political influence and could actually sit in a few rooms and come up with documents that created arguably the most interesting individual and group actions and discussions in world history. Those kind of Yippies. Phil Ochs was a

2634:

No viable or pressing reason has been presented that would justify the deletion of this great work, (not "suitable"??) so until such time, we should not even consider its outright and wholesale deletion. As much as I have reservations about how slavery is often presented in its 'flat earth' and

888:

There's a weird redirect at the end of the url, and based on other LOC pages, there's a big difference in format, so most likely this is an earlier page that they're still maintaining. However, I'm unable to access it through the current menu structure, so maybe it's headed to dead-link heaven.

220:

I understand now where you were only seeing the base callsigns. What it is is Knowledge’s shortcut, and I believe Radio Locator also only lists the base callsign. The F.C.C. F.M. query is up-to-date. There is also the CDBS, but I believe that is getting replaced on the F.C.C.’s site with a more

2223:

Hello, and wanted to both thank you for your considerable research and comments at the U.S. Constitution talk page and to point out that, if you have minutes saved within your day (do you really need to spend time eating or brushing your teeth when you could be editing?) please have a look at

2179:'s on the FAC updates have been prodigious. Looking at the long list of responses to various editors' input and the changes required, I believe the effort that went into this is amazing in terms of both the number of hours and your joint dedication to WP's editorial standards. Sincere thanks. 2034:

I've simply responded to your posts, and I've been civil. Could I have been more succinct? No doubt, though the issues involved are not that simple and new ones are being introduced every few days. As for whether I should stop, if you're going to file a Request for Comment, expect to get some

1877:

The framers agreed with ancient political theorists who held that the Roman Republic represented the most perfect balance between them. Republican Rome had two consuls (elected by the Senate) who filled the monarchical function, a permanent patrician class of senators, and, finally, popular

173:

No objection from me & one suggestion-the band could be added as another sortable field, which when clicked would group all of the A.M.s, then the F.M.s. I think the next thing is we need to make sure those callsigns are the true calls, lest we have another KAZI/KAZI-FM incident. Out of

2316:

Thanks for these long notes, I'll get more into it soon. Nice work on the pages and sources, and on countering the Zinn material (he often overlooked or slanted the obvious, on purpose or not, but he did put a lot of public interest onto historical facts-even if some were not facts!).

2252:

In the Slavery section, I added a tag for more citations since some statements are made without cites while others that do have cites include material not covered by the sources. I also found a footnote earlier that claims Jefferson's "created equal" may have influenced Thomas Paine's

2840:, more people are mentioning splitting the Historical Documents navbox and it's my concern that a closer may actually think that it is included as part of the deciding discussion, so I don't think it would be over-the-line to mention that this is occurring in relationship to the 351:

I understand the need for "eyes" but also see no reason the article could come up for deletion based on what the sources have to say as well as my experience with WP. My confidence, then, is 100%. Thanks for the info on the posting procedure as well as your exceptionally quick

601:

Why isn't the Lee Resolution mentioned in the United Colonies page? The United Colonies is discussed at length in the Resolution's page. Shouldn't that be reciprocal, at least mentioned? I see Adams is mentioned but not Lee. Just questions "out of the mouth of a babe".

305:. I'm an experienced editor but am not familiar with this process. Since the artist is unquestionably notable and the article meets other WP standards (citations, structure, writing style, etc.), I see no reason to wait for the draft to be reviewed. So my question is: 2673:

may have missed our discussion, so he's correct if "suitable" means "passable". But as the Scarlet Pimpernel said to the king when someone praised his new royal garments as being "not so bad": "Nothing is so bad as something that's not so bad". We can do better.

487:

probably know developed profound emotional problems. At the military school I went to, in Staunton, Virginia, the Government professor, who was a legendary for the difficulty of his course, described Phil as the most brilliant student he had ever taught.

1552:, but are more the product of subjective, unconscious tendencies. I won't cite what I meant specifically but instead suggest you read through the bulleted points to see what might apply. I'll do so as well, because I'm no doubt guilty of a few myself. 2991:

Okay, but I wouldn't worry about frivolous accusations. "Bludgeoning" is rank hyper-speak. Your comments were civil and always in response to other editors, one of whom has made about as many comments as you have, and I told your accuser as much. --

1354:: I agree and changed what I had written as soon as I caught it (before I saw your post). My apologies. And I appreciate your letting me know. While we obviously are at opposite poles on the issues here, I believe you've been very civil throughout. 2302:. This and other thoughts in the article relate to issues tied to the Constitution and Preamble. It also shows to go that criticisms such as Zinn's are often anachronistic potshots whose appeal is far more visceral than substantial. 784:

later, we were on the Moon. It's enjoyable learning more about the era, thanks for inspiring me to put even more attention on a large group of pages and leading me to others. Knowledge really has a fine America founding collection.

2563:

about effectively contributing to such discussions is worth a read. Last but not least, you are highly encouraged to continue improving the article; just be sure not to remove the tag about the deletion nomination from the top.

893:

Unfortunately, this is like a gateway to the Pacific, not a very helpful place to find things, the choices being vast. I'll have to hunt down a more useful link to support what I was referring to regarding "primary documents".

2126:

There's no rush on this, and if time allows maybe you could leave some of your thoughts on support/oppose for the article on the FAC assessment page currently in progress. After this week-end is fine if your schedule allows.

331:

discussion(should one arise). My advice would be to allow the review process to play out so you get other eyes on it now, rather than later- unless you have had other drafts accepted in the past, but you may do as you wish.

951:

I may have not understood your initial question. Were you referring to the LOC citation in the FF List section? I fixed the citation by closing a wikilink to the publisher (LOC). The link to the LOC page should be okay now.

1874:

At the time, the common assumption among educated people was that there were three elementary principles of government that were held to exist, in different measure, in all known human societies: monarchy, aristocracy, and

1408:

Thanks, and a good analysis for educational purposes. I'll get back to you when I watch the youtube link, and am wondering (don't tell me) if he's going to pull a surprise name as the constitution's father. Nice tease!

2248:

were published in England. Nothing written in England at the time would have looked kindly on America's independence plus slavery was still legal there, so the sources criticizing the hypocrisy are themselves somewhat

1636:

as a broad term for how the application of our fuzzy policies allows discussions to go on interminably, without resolution. But to understand how it might apply here, in a less egregious form, the guidelines say this:

3168:

Thanks, at the moment we’re discussing the scope and then it’s probably onto tagging and assessment. As for long term attention, we haven’t really clarified any initiatives or objectives yet, it’s still very nascent

3008:

Thanks. I'll get back to it and join the discussion again soon. The combined navbox is too important to give up on, it's a beautiful and useful construction to educate each of the documents pages about the full set.

690:

article for anyone who wants to use it for research. It's already formatted for citation or "further reading" use. Either one of which can be copied for use in the United Colonies article. Just a heads-up.

2545: 908:

They seriously revamped their online collections. They previously had a really funky, outdated format. Stuff is still accessible but many links seem to be broken. Best I can do for now is this page:

2525: 2951:— Yes, that's a more definitive title. Back at the debate over splitting, I pointed out some realities that will hopefully be considered over dismantling the major navbox. See my last comments-- 1671:

I got the impression that civil POV pushing may be taking place as well. Everyone has a perspective though, and (usually) feels that their way of interpreting the world is closest to the truth.

565:

JSTOR is an excellent research site. It doesn't seem to be as strong on colonial history, but it does offer articles from a range of very reliable sources. I'll review your edits as suggested.

453:

decades later. I also got to see a draft card burning (btw, good for you) during my first protest rally while going to college in Boston - by the editor of the BU News who went on to found the

92:. Accordingly, I would appreciate if you would revert your most recent revert. I apologize for not posting my Talk page explanation sooner, but I got called away while composing it. Thank you. 2874: 195:

I used the links provided by the "FM station data|WXXX" template under External Links in the stations' WP articles. I have no idea which FCC database this links to, though the current URL is "

750:, major article topics, lack data about authorship and I'd like to ask you to add a good eye (haven't done a dive into sources, will leave a talk page note on both pages). Yours in Werther, 2691: 2655:"suitable for inclusion in Knowledge in its current form" But we have already started discussions about changing the format to present various subtopics instead of a chronological list. 546:, a fine and impor. page no memory of seeing before (edi'ed awhile ago wi'hou' realizing i's impor'ance). Did some good edi's already, maybe you can have a look and add a 'hing or 2. 2748: 301:

I'm creating a new article on a blind street musician who was one of country music's earliest recorded artists, and I inadvertently set up the new page through the draft process:

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on the WP:MOSCAPS Talk page. I'm looking for consensus on wrapping up things. Any other editors who would like to join in are welcome to review the comments and add their input.

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Don't bother going to page 2. Not as relevant. I'll keep looking but my guess is they no longer have a central page as before or like the ones for the Archives and Congress.gov.

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in the Constitution article, you indicated your intention was to make a point clear to readers. I doubt you understand that this is advocating for a position in violation of

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Hi! thx for your message concerning the Dahmer RFC. I'm a total newb, sry to ask: can you rearrange everything so it's ok? this would be a great help... many thx in advance.

3122: 1054:. I am a participating editor and have no special authority. Either ask your questions at DRN, or ask the moderator on their talk page, or don't ask the questions. 743: 2336: 1959:

I appreciate your sharing this and taking my request for a source seriously. Not being familiar with Graeber, I find his analysis very interesting and probably valid

1336: 286: 43: 2844: 616:'hanks. I dunno. Very good analysis of adding Lee Resolu'ion, I knew you'd come up wi'h good ideas. Maybe discussion on page's discussion page (coining a phrase). 2593: 1719: 1943:

I think that there are aspects of this argument on which reliable sources probably disagree, which is why I'm not arguing that it be stated this explicitly in

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I'm sure train hobbyists love the page, and there are lots of train hobbyists. I've known a couple, and assume songs would be an area of interest. Nice work.

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rather narrow perspective, often by those who are trying to demoralize the United States, this abundance of sources, for better or worse, should remain. --

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Which is not to say personal attacks are ever justified, but it does mean at some point in a drawn out dispute we can be more aggressive in our responses.

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It is worthwhile, I think, to dwell on this point for a moment. When the framers spoke of an "aristocracy" they were not using the term metaphorically.

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The types of wiki-lawyering vary from mild commonplace even inadvertent behavior to quite severe deliberate misuses of the Wikipiedia policies...

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You raised an accusation in your personal talk page regarding the RfC issue. I'm not going to address that on the same page with the RfC itself.

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the station's CDBS (FCC's Consolidated DataBase System) page where you can further confirm the callsign along with other basic station data.

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arguing for the exclusion of facts (the low number of people who voted in favor of ratification) because they cast doubt on your opinions (

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Just thought I would let you know that people in Yorkshire, UK where I was born and brought up say "All reet" rather than "All right". --

2544:, should be deleted, as I am not sure that it is suitable for inclusion in Knowledge in its current form. Your comments are welcome at 2520: 1082: 2454:

well. So "warring", then, appears to be in the eyes of the beholder, and frankly, find your accusation inflammatory, meaning uncivil.

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or the fact that you're commenting. It is the fact that you are continuing to make the same point, repeatedly arguing to prioritize

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Just changed the visible name of the navbox to 'Founding documents of the United States'. Seems a clearer name for the topic map.

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Repairing the Breach: Puritan Expansion, Commonwealth Formation, and the Origins of the United Colonies of New England, 1630-1643

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Very often a station's FCC assigned call sign does have an "-FM", "-TV", "-LP" suffix. For the applicable regulation see here:

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What an absolutely tremendous article. I only wish I'd stumbled across it sooner. Thank you for all your hard work on it. –

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article in which you've shown some interest. It would be nice to see your support/oppose comments possibly if time allows.

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They were well aware that they were creating a new political form that fused together democratic and aristocratic elements.

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And this just in. I found a source worth adding to the Criticisms section to offset what the "Zinns" of the world hop on.

1238: 1177: 2886: 2791: 2614:: I would appreciate your providing a response to the above AfD. To access the AfD page in question, please use the link 1112: 835: 387: 39: 2299: 1150: 2469: 2372: 2337: 1007: 821: 2228:, especially its slavery section as well as the criticism section (where Howard Zinn again plays the favored role). 320: 3018: 3003: 2982: 2962: 2929: 2910: 2832: 2815: 2664: 1265: 926:

Maybe Kamala was put in charge of it along with her full-time part-time no time job of managing the border. I like

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Your Library of Congress link to the booklet not working for me, may be broken or my browser is from the Ice Age.

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On another topic, please address article issues on the article talk page and not on personal talk pages, thanks.

2646: 2483: 2463: 2188: 2170: 2151: 2136: 2121: 1748: 101: 1794: 1131: 3073: 2326: 2275: 1825: 1810: 1801:, abnormal hair growth. Okay, fine, except editors are up in arms over Homes of the Founding Fathers. Really? 1766: 1487:. As for the latest development, your solution is that I remove the Preamble's text from the article. Really? 1418: 1403: 878: 3178: 3163: 3149: 2540:

I wanted to let you know, however, that I've started a discussion about whether an article that you created,

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Station articles are not titled arbitrarily, they are titled according to the station's official call sign.--

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guideline, it states that advocating for a POV can be damaging to WP and disruptive to the editing process.

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The issue of length and author masks was well addressed. Having an opinion doesn't justify exceeding the

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is not an excuse for uncooperative behavior. There is a limit to how long good faith can be extended...

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Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion involving you at

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Sure. I'll check the link you provided to get the gist and will add another reply shortly. Thanks.

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there have already gotten out of hand, so I'll answer you here. This is the source that I'm using:

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is more apropos in terms of specifics. BTW, I don't find your last two accusations of my violating

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If you have any questions about the process in the DRN discussion, address them to the moderator,

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I reverted your edit on the Blues page. I did not see your discussion at first. Sorry about that.

3036: 2263: 2255: 1690:'s political views, we part ways over his use of sources and his characterizations (particularly 1633: 1165: 454: 2175:

I added Support in my comment on May 13. Apologies for the delay. I must add that your work and

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https://www.loc.gov/search/?fa=partof:u.s.+national+archives+and+records+administration&sp=1

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Let me know what needs immediate/long-term attention. I'd be happy to pitch in. All the best.

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Yes, LOC link. 'hanks, will look later. And thanks for the Peale link, will check it out too.

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any accusation of wikilawyering should include a brief explanation justifying use of the term

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WP:NPOV/N § How should the Preamble to the United States Constitution be neutrally presented?

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argue politely and in compliance with Knowledge civility principles, but also with bad faith

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Knowledge:Templates for discussion/Log/2024 April 3#Template:Historical American Documents

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has been answered. If you need more help or have additional questions, please reapply the

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page (just before User:Kbdank71 edited) you apparently forgot to add your signature. --

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Hmmm. If it's the link I think you're referring to, it links to LOC's primary doc page:

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Meanwhile, I found a note on their migration of the "American Memory" collections to:

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Please feel free to post your comments and I will reply as soon as I can. Thank you.

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which dovetails with "We, the people" and the Preamble. Might prove useful later.

1331: 1241:, and thought you might be interested in contributing to the discussion. Regards, 89: 3088: 3010: 2974: 2948: 2935: 2921: 2896: 2878: 2851: 2824: 2799: 2783: 2738: 2734: 2318: 2229: 2059: 2050: 2024: 1949: 1901:(2013). "The Mob Begin to Think and to Reason: The Covert History of Democracy". 1841: 1817: 1790: 1776: 1758: 1622: 1535: 1461: 1410: 1376: 1341: 1311: 1271: 1169: 1078: 1029: 999: 967: 946: 931: 870: 785: 751: 720: 706: 673: 643: 617: 580: 562: 547: 543: 503: 473: 442: 428: 295:

template, or contact the responding user(s) directly on their own user talk page.

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comments, and when you do, please respond to them on the appropriate Talk page.

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Hello, Allreet, and welcome to Knowledge. I edit here too, under the username

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In my second observation of Freoh today regarding the dating of the origins of

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reminded me I was told long ago in our never-ending discussion, had forgotten".

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Please see the new subsection (Time to Move On) I've added at the end of the

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Oh, and it would help to hear your opinion. The feedback might sharpen mine.

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In closing, I'll cite another section of the WP:Civil POV pushing guideline:

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Knowledge:Articles for deletion/Bibliography of slavery in the United States

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I'm going to copy this to your talk page so that you have it there as well.

3155: 3141: 3099: 3095: 2873:. The nomination to split the navbox discussed above is now in progress at 2752: 2698: 2675: 2619: 2611: 2567:

If you have any questions, please leave a comment here and prepend it with

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I was just coming by the mention the same thing. Check out my newest edit.

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What is the procedure for publishing a draft without waiting for review?

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painfully aware of what had happened in England and wanted to avoid it.

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Here's a few presents, hoping for their speedy return: . Only t'sing.

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Again, please confine your comments to the Constitution's Talk page.

1718:

Hi Allreet. Just wanted to mention that after your last edits on the

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The American Constitution was designed to achieve a similar balance.

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regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you.

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Hey, thanks for referring this. It led me to the companion article

1606:. Most of our recent arguing has been my attempt to present a more 1192: 1108:

Topic ban requested for multiple users on American History articles

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that I don't think is super relevant to the RfC proposal, and the

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Seeking closure on MOS:CAPS Founding Fathers capitalization issue

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for his extensive contributions, improvements and defense of the

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An automated process has detected that when you recently edited

1525:. My goal is clarifying factual information, in accordance with 1187:

An automated process has detected that when you recently edited

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what is issued by the F.C.C., & not an incomplete callsign!

2749:

Founding Fathers of the United States capitalization discussion

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Meanwhile, in our discussion over a footnote you added to the

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I posted a lengthy list of topics for getting started on your

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modern database. If you want to verify the calls, please do!

1757:, maybe you can follow up with an image of a stamp? Thanks. 1632:

I was referring to all disputes, not just this one and used

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curiosity, which F.C.C. database were you checking? Thanks!

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Will do—I'll let you know what's in the Civil Rights essay.

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extremely limited, lest the "horrors of democracy" ensue.

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pillar) particularly civil, that is, consistent with AGF.

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Declaration and Resolves of the First Continental Congress

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Ho ho ho. I added the Dugre paper to the Talk page of the

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I've gone ahead with the re-nomination with Cmguy of the

2505:

regarding a possible violation of Knowledge's policy on

2016:

the document's authority as resting with "We the People"

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when dealing with other editors. I don't appreciate the

3087:, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page 1720:

Knowledge:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 February 1

1191:, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page 1904:

The Democracy Project: A History, a Crisis, a Movement

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Thanks for the notification. I'll be sure to respond.

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I fantasize that most of these visitors are deejays.

109:. The following links are some examples from the FCC: 2669:

Yes, I'm now starting the "great divide" (offline).

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Talk:Constitution of the United States § Discussion

1602:, I always try to do so in a way that respects the 2503:Knowledge:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring 1616:suggest to me that you do not respect Knowledge's 2804:and Allreet: — Where is this being discussed? -- 1548:page mentions many behaviors that aren't tied to 886:https://memory.loc.gov/ammem/help/constRedir.html 1183:Disambiguation link notification for November 17 197:https://transition.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/fmq?call=WYEP 2845:Signers of the U.S. Declaration of Independence 2018:). Could you please stop? I find this behavior 1797:", which qualifies because Jo Jo suffered from 2427:Bibliography of the United States Constitution 2492:Notice of edit warring noticeboard discussion 2157:to the article which might help to gain your 1641:IMO, that applies to our discussions, though 1233:When did the Bob Dylan World Tour 1966 start? 3079:Disambiguation link notification for June 16 2571:. And, don't forget to sign your reply with 2542:Bibliography of slavery in the United States 2528:Bibliography of slavery in the United States 2161:for the article on the FAC assessment page? 1282:Constitution of the United States § Preamble 1816:that the topic is reputable and definable. 1164:You may be interested in the discussion at 3047: 2537:, and I thank you for your contributions. 1933:: CS1 maint: location missing publisher ( 1837:with interest. It presents the mystery of 2425:Allreet, please stop the edit warring on 1855:Balance between democracy and aristocracy 1239:Talk:Bob_Dylan_World_Tour_1966#Tour_dates 2000:. I've explained several times now that 1897: 1598:. Though I do sometimes cite Knowledge 1297:after I opposed them. Please stop this 672:Scooped 'em up. Chris'mas in February! 406:: Is okay. Thanks for letting me know. 3117:Hi, I see you've contributed a lot to 1998:Talk:Constitution of the United States 1449:when dealing with other editors. I've 1839:button, button, who's got the button? 1124:Knowledge:Administrators' noticeboard 2877:in case you still have an interest. 1544:Those are your interpretations. The 1493:The requirement to assume good faith 748:Declaration of Rights and Grievances 287:request for help from administrators 274: 2969:Will check out your comments later 2555:usually run for seven days and are 1739:Thanks...I'll fix it. Best wishes. 1483:and the related guideline I cited, 1122:There is currently a discussion at 13: 1459:me of acting in bad faith. — 1166:Talk:Vermont#CNBC rating of states 1160:Discussion about ratings of states 826:Let me know what to we do next? -- 14: 3192: 2583:tool, on behalf of the reviewer.) 2551:You might like to note that such 2373:Constitution of the United States 1527:Knowledge's neutrality guidelines 1450: 2496: 2347: 2112:Shall do. Thanks for the alert. 2049:I don't have an issue with your 1117: 1113:Notice of noticeboard discussion 1069:All reet" rather than "All right 891:https://www.loc.gov/collections/ 633: 583:You may want to take a look at " 303:Draft:Ernest Thompson (musician) 278: 157:List of Community Radio Stations 3121:, would you be interested in a 2057:without explaining why. — 1835:the article you were working on 688:Talk: New England Confederation 253:16:58, 19 September 2019 (UTC) 231:16:21, 19 September 2019 (UTC) 209:15:40, 19 September 2019 (UTC) 184:08:30, 19 September 2019 (UTC) 169:02:49, 19 September 2019 (UTC) 128:01:57, 19 September 2019 (UTC) 102:00:05, 19 September 2019 (UTC) 1: 2770:Historical American Documents 2761:02:42, 26 February 2024 (UTC) 2684:12:17, 4 September 2023 (UTC) 2665:07:03, 4 September 2023 (UTC) 2647:03:42, 4 September 2023 (UTC) 2628:01:49, 4 September 2023 (UTC) 2594:21:23, 3 September 2023 (UTC) 2078:16:39, 28 February 2023 (UTC) 2064:13:08, 28 February 2023 (UTC) 2045:07:02, 28 February 2023 (UTC) 2029:02:26, 28 February 2023 (UTC) 1982:19:53, 16 February 2023 (UTC) 1954:11:58, 16 February 2023 (UTC) 1859:Hey, you asked a question at 1850:04:09, 10 February 2023 (UTC) 1686:While I generally agree with 1521:, who according to that page 1227:06:12, 17 November 2022 (UTC) 1212:05:59, 17 November 2022 (UTC) 859:23:13, 18 February 2022 (UTC) 836:17:53, 17 February 2022 (UTC) 794:22:14, 18 February 2022 (UTC) 779:14:31, 18 February 2022 (UTC) 760:12:57, 18 February 2022 (UTC) 737:08:17, 18 February 2022 (UTC) 715:04:12, 18 February 2022 (UTC) 701:21:20, 11 February 2022 (UTC) 682:21:08, 11 February 2022 (UTC) 668:20:18, 11 February 2022 (UTC) 652:13:46, 14 February 2022 (UTC) 626:19:22, 11 February 2022 (UTC) 612:18:41, 11 February 2022 (UTC) 597:18:26, 11 February 2022 (UTC) 575:17:49, 11 February 2022 (UTC) 556:12:25, 11 February 2022 (UTC) 533:08:53, 16 February 2022 (UTC) 416:04:32, 30 December 2021 (UTC) 395:03:28, 30 December 2021 (UTC) 31:23:24, 22 February 2015 (UTC) 2340:: Work hasn't gone unnoticed 1826:09:56, 9 February 2023 (UTC) 1811:00:01, 9 February 2023 (UTC) 1785:23:16, 8 February 2023 (UTC) 1767:05:20, 4 February 2023 (UTC) 1749:04:23, 4 February 2023 (UTC) 1734:23:08, 3 February 2023 (UTC) 1704:21:38, 6 February 2023 (UTC) 1681:21:07, 6 February 2023 (UTC) 1663:20:46, 3 February 2023 (UTC) 1627:20:45, 2 February 2023 (UTC) 1570:20:06, 3 February 2023 (UTC) 1540:20:33, 2 February 2023 (UTC) 1507:22:31, 1 February 2023 (UTC) 1466:17:54, 1 February 2023 (UTC) 1433:14:50, 24 January 2023 (UTC) 1419:14:48, 24 January 2023 (UTC) 1404:14:40, 24 January 2023 (UTC) 1385:12:10, 24 January 2023 (UTC) 1364:00:00, 20 January 2023 (UTC) 1346:23:46, 19 January 2023 (UTC) 1316:23:24, 16 January 2023 (UTC) 1266:18:47, 8 December 2022 (UTC) 1251:23:08, 7 December 2022 (UTC) 928:the Babe Ruth link on page 1 512:23:44, 25 January 2022 (UTC) 497:23:20, 25 January 2022 (UTC) 482:22:36, 25 January 2022 (UTC) 467:20:25, 25 January 2022 (UTC) 437:19:47, 25 January 2022 (UTC) 362:22:42, 2 December 2021 (UTC) 342:17:50, 2 December 2021 (UTC) 321:17:28, 2 December 2021 (UTC) 7: 3179:13:31, 10 August 2024 (UTC) 3164:13:19, 10 August 2024 (UTC) 3123:taskforce on oral tradition 2579:(Message delivered via the 1178:12:57, 4 October 2022 (UTC) 10: 3197: 3150:14:03, 4 August 2024 (UTC) 3135:13:00, 4 August 2024 (UTC) 2860:13:04, 21 March 2024 (UTC) 2833:04:26, 21 March 2024 (UTC) 2816:03:45, 21 March 2024 (UTC) 2792:00:40, 21 March 2024 (UTC) 2526:Deletion discussion about 2406:) 03:37, 7 May 2023 (UTC) 2327:22:27, 18 April 2023 (UTC) 2312:16:22, 18 April 2023 (UTC) 2290:15:48, 18 April 2023 (UTC) 2276:15:40, 18 April 2023 (UTC) 2238:12:25, 18 April 2023 (UTC) 2152:16:48, 10 April 2023 (UTC) 1988:Don't bludgeon the process 1972:especially given his age. 1594:. According to that page, 1284:, making the same changes 1102:13:22, 18 April 2022 (UTC) 1083:07:20, 18 April 2022 (UTC) 1064:18:38, 18 March 2022 (UTC) 1038:23:31, 10 March 2022 (UTC) 1024:22:40, 10 March 2022 (UTC) 1008:21:35, 10 March 2022 (UTC) 3108:19:54, 16 June 2024 (UTC) 3055: 3046: 3019:00:31, 6 April 2024 (UTC) 3004:00:29, 6 April 2024 (UTC) 2983:23:42, 5 April 2024 (UTC) 2963:19:25, 5 April 2024 (UTC) 2944:05:36, 5 April 2024 (UTC) 2930:05:31, 5 April 2024 (UTC) 2911:18:51, 4 April 2024 (UTC) 2887:14:37, 3 April 2024 (UTC) 2618:has provided. Thank you. 2357:The Barnstar of Diligence 2353: 2346: 2226:All men are created equal 2137:15:04, 8 April 2023 (UTC) 2122:00:37, 6 April 2023 (UTC) 2107:00:33, 6 April 2023 (UTC) 2004:on Knowledge, and you're 1531:advocating for a position 1151:02:25, 18 July 2022 (UTC) 1136:22:13, 17 July 2022 (UTC) 976:19:28, 3 March 2022 (UTC) 962:17:10, 3 March 2022 (UTC) 940:14:20, 3 March 2022 (UTC) 922:14:09, 3 March 2022 (UTC) 904:13:54, 3 March 2022 (UTC) 879:13:34, 3 March 2022 (UTC) 822:Hello thanks for the help 327:that it would survive an 80:callsign field should be 48:16:40, 19 July 2023 (UTC) 3159: 3145: 3074:09:56, 16 May 2024 (UTC) 2756: 2679: 2623: 2521:22:54, 22 May 2023 (UTC) 2484:23:15, 22 May 2023 (UTC) 2464:22:21, 22 May 2023 (UTC) 2459: 2441:21:31, 22 May 2023 (UTC) 2411: 2338:Constitution of the U.S. 2307: 2285: 2271: 2203:15:43, 16 May 2023 (UTC) 2189:14:47, 16 May 2023 (UTC) 2184: 2171:16:05, 10 May 2023 (UTC) 2147: 2117: 2073: 2040: 1977: 1806: 1744: 1699: 1658: 1565: 1557: 1502: 1428: 1399: 1359: 1261: 1237:I've started a topic at 1222: 1146: 1097: 1019: 957: 917: 899: 854: 774: 732: 696: 663: 607: 592: 570: 492: 462: 411: 357: 316: 248: 204: 164: 97: 70:23:59, 12 May 2018 (UTC) 26: 2416:12:06, 9 May 2023 (UTC) 2389:03:37, 7 May 2023 (UTC) 2264:Consent of the governed 1795:Jo Jo the Dog Faced Boy 542:'anks for poin'ing ou' 455:Liberation News Service 2002:facts precede opinions 1941: 1517:accused me of being a 994:Saw your masterpiece, 90:Call sign#Broadcasting 2569:{{Re|Edward-Woodrow}} 2470:The three-revert rule 1869: 1608:neutral point of view 1604:underlying principles 1511:As I interpreted it, 1335:you made about me at 329:Articles for Deletion 271:Want to publish draft 3096:Opt-out instructions 3085:List of slave owners 3037:Precious anniversary 2509:. Thank you. -- 1613:your recent comments 1485:WP:Civil POV pushing 1456:continuing to accuse 1200:Opt-out instructions 1128:TheVirginiaHistorian 3043: 2055:opinions over facts 1992:I feel like you're 1445:Please remember to 1325:Please remember to 1052:User:Casualdejekyll 996:List of train songs 990:Gotta tell you this 55:List of train songs 3041: 2869:Hello Allreet and 2778:Hello Allreet and 1775:reply. 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