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2025:. The concern of editors who add the word "alleged" in this place is that if we were not to add it, we would be saying that magic is real. It's literally a forced disclaimer. A better mockup analogy with the God article sentence than the one you've made would be: "In monotheistic thought, God is usually viewed as the alleged supreme being, alleged creator, and principal object of faith." We must allegedly add "alleged" before "supreme being" and "creator" because otherwise we would be saying that there really is a supreme being and a creator. —
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need to say something like: "According to certain worldviews, witchcraft is...." There is a temptation to hedge even further, to distance the encyclopedia from any implication that witchcraft is real, by adding an adverb like "allegedly". But this actually makes the statement incorrect. When you write, "As most commonly understood in worldview X, ," the words after the comma describe the world according to that worldview.
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1882:"Peter Geschiere’s study on witchcraft in postcolonial Cameroon lucidly posits that witchcraft covers perceptions of underhand efforts made by the powerful to accumulate resources and wealth, and secret attempts by the weak in society to equalise or eliminate such perceived inequalities in power through occult means.1"
1873:"The paper demonstrates that western consumer goods were not only used by the general populace to transform their lifestyle from the traditional to western style but also by witchcraft practitioners to enhance their power and authority through the ‘modernisation’ of their paraphernalia thereby making them more potent"
1560:. Subjects not specifically covered in other articles must be included here, including presence in folklore and variation between cultures/regions. Topics covered in other articles, such as neopagan witchcraft or specific regional views of witchcraft, should be introduced briefly with a link to those articles.
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I know there's been a lot of discussion of the lede, so please forgive me if this is out of turn, but to my mind, the opening sentence involves a mistake: "Witchcraft, as most commonly understood in both historical and present-day communities, is the use of alleged supernatural powers of magic." When
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It is a bit understandable why someone added 'allegedly'. I think we can all agree that part of the challenge of getting this right is that we want to describe and define something that only exists according to certain worldviews, without saying on behalf of
Knowledge that this thing is real. So we
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This is wild. I was told this was supposed to be unbiased. Saying witches have intent to harm people is very skewed. Witches basically served as nurses and midwives at one time. They kept communities healthy and were demonized for it by
Christian’s who wanted power. I’m just asking you to make the
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Seems reasonable to remove this and maybe preserve some information by adding it in summarized form after the fact, in chronological order, to what remains about Europe. Organizationally, this section doesn't belong here any more, as it makes no sense to cover Europe, and then also only
Ancient
1998:
I tend to agree with Malibu
Sapphire, Red Rock Canyon, and Cursed Peace that "the alleged use" makes more sense than "the use of alleged" because that way it covers both people who genuinely believe to be using "alleged" supernatural powers and those who are falsely alleged to use supernatural
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I agree that "the alleged use" is better than "the use of alleged", so I'll go ahead and be bold and make that change. I don't think the existence of the RFC should tie us down in procedural hurdles, but if anyone has a substantial objection, they can feel free to revert.
1821:
It is the supernatural powers that are alleged. This is because we cannot say in WikiVoice that supernatural powers are real. It is not the use that is alleged, it is the powers that are alleged. This is specified in
Chetsford's closure of the RfC above, per discussion.
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section. It is, by itself, as long as most of the other regions covered in this article, which seems unbalanced. It has been restored to this article twice without explanation, description, or suggestion of what it adds to coverage by being repeated in this article. -
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C͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏u͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏r͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏s͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏͏ed
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This article is about
Malificarum, not neo-paganism. As other have said, we have a separate article for that. and all cultures have malicious magic, so to claim that it only refers to a 19th European esoteric tradition is, "ethnocentric".
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article. I've been monitoring the talk page for this article for quite some time — your extensive patronage to this page I've long admired — and I feel that I should flag this now. Afterthought: you may enjoy reading
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The
Practice of Witchcraft and the Changing Patterns of its Paraphernalia in the Light of Technologically Produced Goods as Presented by Livingstone Museum, 1930s - 1973 Friday Mufuzi Lusaka National Museum, Zambia
1974:: "In monotheistic thought, God is usually viewed as the supreme being, creator, and principal object of faith." It would be a mistake to change this to: "In monotheistic thought, God is usually viewed as the
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2125:. I practice some forms of witchcraft as well. But as I’ve been saying, it shouldn’t say that it’s always good. It shouldn’t say that it’s bad, either. It shouldn’t swing to either side of the argument.
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If you can't figure out that a single word can refer to two different things and that therefore there will be two different articles about those two different things, then we don't need your input.
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supreme being, creator, and principal object of faith." In monotheistic thought, God is not merely the allegedly supreme being; according to that kind of thought, God really is the supreme being.
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and other media on
Knowledge. If you would like to participate, you can edit one of the articles mentioned below, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and contribute to the
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I think they are both alleged. Witchcraft isn't real. Witches were accused of using magic. It isn't like the alleged witches said "I did do something, but it was not supernatural".
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Through my work I have recently found myself incidentally fascinated by
African witchcraft and I'm slowly amassing a body of work to update the
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lol again telling me what you think I practice rather than asking. I give Wiki money every year and have for at least 10 years. That’s over.
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I was waiting for the "but I give money to wikipedia" comment to appear, and it magically appeared! I think the encyclopedia will survive.
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For the sake of accuracy, as well as clarity and brevity, the word 'alleged' should, in my opinion, be removed from the first sentence.
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I obviously want to respect the democratic process employed above, and if that has to be prioritized, so be it, but please reconsider.
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This article was historically prone to regional bias. Content pertaining to particular regions was spun out in summer/autumn of 2023.
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Few interested editors will see this message on your own user talk page. It might be better placed on the article's talk page at
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powers. I personally don't think the switch would imply that witchcraft-derived supernatural powers are objectively real.
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The opening sentence was determined by RFC, and my understanding is it takes more to change things determined by RFC. -
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believers in witchcraft say, "That is witchcraft," they are not saying that someone is making use of
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Looking for a quote I remember from a source but don't seem to have saved anywhere and found this;
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for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists.
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supernatural powers. They are saying that someone is making use of supernatural powers, period.
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Good Riddance. The last think we need is someone using money to get his way in editorial work.
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Rome—what about the rest of Europe (in time and in space)? I don't oppose removal.—
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Stating that witches are evil and intend to harm people needs to be removed.
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The first paragraph should begin with the specific sentences agreed on in
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What do others think of moving the word alleged in the first sentence?
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regarding an issue watchers of this page may be interested in. -
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Its subtle, but I believe this is more in line with the article
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2017:. In this edit, an editor defended the addition of "alleged":
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It’s complex, but we do need to avoid saying magic is real.
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On 19 July 2023, it was proposed that this article be
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34:This is the
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2090:Breadcrumbs
1603:written in
1483:the article
769:the article
314:renominated
163:free images
46:not a forum
2324:Categories
2276:LadyNyx666
2259:Netherzone
2203:LadyNyx666
2188:LadyNyx666
2173:LadyNyx666
2123:LadyNyx666
2056:LadyNyx666
1824:Netherzone
1747:Netherzone
1688:Witchcraft
1656:Witchcraft
1556:This is a
1406:Psychology
1397:Psychology
1353:Psychology
1107:Skepticism
1098:skepticism
1058:Skepticism
874:literature
586:Paranormal
569:paranormal
541:Paranormal
298:Witchcraft
40:Witchcraft
2148:Esowteric
2102:Esowteric
2077:Esowteric
2027:Alalch E.
1976:allegedly
1958:allegedly
1914:Jondvdsn1
1754:Alalch E.
1700:not moved
790:Mythology
764:Mythology
719:Mythology
421:is rated
103:if needed
86:Be polite
36:talk page
2282:Skyerise
2245:Dimadick
2217:Skyerise
1618:traveled
1582:this RfC
1006:Religion
984:Religion
937:Religion
380:Delisted
201:Archives
71:get help
44:This is
42:article.
1859:Sources
1743:Asarlaí
1660:history
1614:defense
1433:on the
1328:on the
1301:History
1292:History
1248:History
1223:on the
1134:on the
1086:science
1033:on the
912:on the
817:on the
694:on the
613:on the
516:on the
423:B-class
339:Process
258:45 days
169:WP refs
157:scholar
2050:Skewed
1196:Occult
1187:occult
1159:Occult
885:Horror
842:Horror
429:scale.
361:Listed
342:Result
141:Google
1839:Peace
1686:from
1684:moved
1610:color
410:This
206:Index
184:JSTOR
145:books
99:Seek
2301:talk
2286:talk
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2209:your
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2155:Talk
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2005:talk
1989:talk
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1794:talk
1779:talk
1745:and
1731:talk
1698:was
1489:and
1487:good
1215:High
1096:and
995:and
993:good
870:film
809:High
779:and
777:good
686:High
605:High
571:and
508:High
336:Date
177:FENS
151:news
88:and
1972:God
1690:to
1519:???
1491:1.0
1425:Mid
1320:Mid
1126:Top
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997:1.0
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191:TWL
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