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at the top of the article calling for neutral, third party sources. Just where are the editors of this article going to find such sources since all theologians and Bible scholars who speak to the issue have some point of view? One issue you may consider discussing is the hijacking of the term "imminent" by pre-tribbers. It is not a biblical term so we must turn to
English dictionaries for the meaning. The dictionaries all give a definition to the word (such as "soon" or "impending") which is consistent with post-trib teachings. Additionally, the use of the term "imminent" to describe the rapture can probably be traced to the Niagra Bible conferences. Article three of the of the 1878 resolutions which uses the term "imminent" was drafted by Willis Lord, a posttribulationist (see the book "The Rapture: Pre-Mid-or Post- Tribulational" by Archer, Feinberg, Moo, and Reiter). Furthermore, many contemporary post-trib scholars use the term "imminent" when referring to the rapture. Pre-tribbers should not be allowed exclusive use of this term. I do agree with one of the editors below who suggested that the article could be improved by more references to specific books and articles which could provide the readers with information for further research. I know this is a touchy subject that often stirs subjectively biased emotional responses. You have shown strength and maturity in putting together such a good article so far. Keep up the good work!
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other for support. My request is that Justin the Martyr, Irenaeus, Ephraem the Syrian, Tertullian, The
Shepherd of Hermas, The Didache, The Epistle of Barnabas, and Augustine be removed or placed in a disputed category on the page, placed there due to the overwhelming evidences Augustine of Hippo was Amillenial and the fact every camp claims the other names mentioned. Other than the Latin Apocalypse of Pseudo-Ephraem, there is no definitive proof the names mentioned support pre-trib, mid-trib, pre-wrath, or post-trib rapture. However, those mentioned could be claimed overall by premillennialism which is a broader name for the culmination of those 4 positions. Though, I would hazard to use them because the same individuals from amillenial and preterist camps claim them. We need a section entitled disputed support for these persons on each of the Christian eschatological pages. If you want proof texts from each, I can spend a weekend locating them all and posting here. But again, they can be used by each camp. Let's venture past supporting an agenda over definitive evidences. 6-7-18 user: DexLoxley
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any of those persons used as proofs for each of the positions should used on each of the
Christian theological end times pages. Furthermore, it would seem these individuals were included on the page to further an agenda rather than sharing information that is not absolute in it support of one specific to this page's topic. If the persons used in a list to support the position is debated upon in the eschatological debates, there is no consensus. Again, this page with the use of quotes is defending one section of the debate. A person or persons placed those individuals there to support their own agenda(s). A support of an agenda over definitive proof is the issue. Examples: Augustine was Amillenial and not post-trib. And so, the page contradicts this page:
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another idea rather than its own facts and ideas standing on their own. I hope to get to adjust that in the future. Perhaps it is also true that someone went a little too far in demanding citations. Before I added mine in there seemed to be one after every other sentence, if not sooner. The citations end up being longer than the actual body of the discussion. There are commonly held ideas about this topic that do not need citing. The fact that the rapture is after the
Tribulation is itself seen in the title, "Post-tribulation Rapture."
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Acts 9:13; Acts 26:10; Ro. 8:27, etc.) In the pre-trib model, these saints are not part of the church and will not receive glorified bodies going into the millennial kingdom. They also maintain that these believers offspring come against Christ at the end of the 1000 years (see note 1, Prophecy explored).
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It is important to note, that Paul the
Apostle quotes prophet Hosea: and then shall the saying be brought to pass: O dead where is thy sting, O hell where is thy victory". We need to see, when shall this come to pass. Hosea in his prophesy saw only the Second Advent of Messiah. So in pinning the time
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page (not redirects, just plain directs you to it). Therefore, I've removed it and put in a link saying that more info about the root theology of pre-trib rapture may be found at the dispensationalism article. However, I'm not sure that the pre-trib rapture and dispensationalism are as closely tied
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In
Revelation 20:4, it is clear that the believers who went through the great tribulation were beheaded for the witness of Jesus. They did not worship the beast, nor his image, nor his mark and became part of the first resurrection. In all of the New Testament the "saints" are believers:(1 Cor. 1:2;
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Rev 19:7-9 the marriage of the Lamb and His bride. The church is the bride of Christ the Lamb. The marriage will take place in the present heaven before the second coming listed in Rev 19:11. The church is already in the present heaven at the time of the marriage, therefore the rapture of the church
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I am an ordained minister and former Bible
College professor with a pre-trib denomination. I, however, am post-trib. I think your brief article does get to the heart of most issues and I disagree with the editor below who said the logic was "as clear as mud." Furthermore, I see no reason for the box
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A request for citations is needed. Yes. Also, all premillennial proponents use several of these sources for proof texts for their own positions. Not only they but also preterists and amilleinialists. So in truth, several of those sources can be used as an attempt to defend every position. That said,
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There should definitely also be a pre-trib rapture page if there is a post-trib rapture page. I'm not qualified to write it, but it just seems fair to represent both sides, especially when the Left Behind series has become so crazy-popular in the U.S. Also, it's disingenuous at best to have a link
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Again, this is the only
Ephraem text that can be found that mentions any eschatological stance. So, he too should be removed from this post-trib page. Irenaeus should be removed as proof as well because each camp claims him. If one were to scour the internet, each of the camps mentioned use him and
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An attempt was made to properly cite authors and their ideas where I was the original writer of the material and I ended up with 30 citations and a bibliography of 20 or so. I avoided citing where I wasn't the original author and do agree that there is much in this article that does argue against
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The closest thing
Ephraem every wrote about eschatology is what is referred to as Apocalypse of Pseudo=Ephraem. The Latin translation is direct support of pretrib rapture. However, the Syrian and Latin texts greatly differ as the Syriac mentions no eschatology. So, he cannot truly be used as any
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The fundamental Wiki policy of citation, not argument, is being flaunted to the extreme. I have a couple of citations but am rushed for time. We do our audience a disservice by not clearly explaining views by explaining who held them, when, and why. The main
Rapture article is pretty good for
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I took a stab at fixing it. My edits were hopefully non-judgmental to either side. I am post-Trib, personally. Text that was confusing, repeating arguments from other sections, or simply out of place in this section I took the liberty of removing. I feel that a rebuttal of opposing views has
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Added a heading section to the list of objections to pre-Tribulationism. Intent was to identify that list as arguments against pre-Trib rather than information about the subject of the article, post-Trib. Tried to summarize the Scriptural support for the idea that the Bible authors meant to
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of this event, we need to go by the vision of the Old Testament. It is clear, that Hosea had no view of dispensationalism and never supported a separate individual Coming of the Lord for his bride. Prophets saw one day of the Second Advent for all, both church (Israel) and the World.
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If original editors are watching this page, I've put in citation requests where Wiki protocol calls for them. We need to abide by the rules of this medium. I would also be interested to know who came up with some of these ideas, so I could read further.
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explicitly teach post-Trib, so we could be staying on topic, for clarity, and frankly, because I'm post-Trib and want people to understand the idea well.
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as the article(s) make out. I'm of the pre-trib rapture school, but I wouldn't call myself a dispensationalist by any stretch of the imagination. --
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I have first hand knowledge of the phenomenon and this has happened recently 23Sep17, new times require a new you, GOD wills it to be so.
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The logic of this article is about as clear as mud. Is there a K-12 English teacher out there willing to clear it up?
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in a Wiki under a heading that supposedly presents those views in an unbiased, gentlemanly manner.
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I think most of the best modern authors on this subject have been left off the list.
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https://archive.org/details/AfterTheTribulationPreTribulationRaptureFraudExposed
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The tribulation saints are part of the church and will receive glorified bodies
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We can assume the ideas are common but citation is needed. 6-7-18 DexLoxley
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giving history and citing sources in a fairly NPOV, easy-to-follow manner.
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or then anti-pre-tribulationist critique. Can be seen in this video:
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http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5522
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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How can there be a resurrection of "living" believers?
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https://en.wikipedia.org/Augustine_of_Hippo#Eschatology
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Terms for religious doctrine should be in lower case
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971:Sourcecheck
743:—Preceding
598:explanation
543:J. N. Darby
148:free images
31:not a forum
1095:Categories
1041:Report bug
773:Editor2020
594:evaluation
554:good ideas
1024:this tool
1017:this tool
703:DexLoxley
547:heterodox
88:if needed
71:Be polite
21:talk page
1054:unsigned
1030:Cheers.—
893:unsigned
848:Will3935
757:contribs
749:Grinchak
745:unsigned
711:contribs
699:unsigned
677:Alfarero
673:Thanks,
654:Alfarero
650:Thanks,
620:Alfarero
604:Alfarero
570:unsigned
558:Alfarero
56:get help
29:This is
27:article.
1079:Royandy
957:checked
924:my edit
638:Rapture
502:on the
413:on the
308:on the
199:B-class
154:WPÂ refs
142:scholar
965:failed
205:scale.
126:Google
832:lozzo
786:????
386:Bible
377:Bible
333:Bible
169:JSTOR
130:books
84:Seek
1083:talk
1062:talk
961:true
901:talk
875:talk
852:talk
827:Joja
796:talk
777:talk
753:talk
707:talk
578:talk
550:idea
521:?:-|
162:FENS
136:news
73:and
998:RfC
975:).
963:or
948:to
938:to
494:Low
405:Low
300:Low
176:TWL
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