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hilal and possibly
Andalusi Arabic. There is an influence in terms of pronounciation and manner of speech and expressions directly translated from berber but linguistically it is largely based on Hilali Arabic, who come from somewhere in the Hijaaz I believe. Because the pronounciation is difficult to understand by eastern arabs (except perhaps those who have had some contact with it and have a rich understanding of classical arabic), there is a myth that it is largely based on Berber and this should be dispelled in this article. There is also a political undertone and element of xenophobia to this belief. There are very few berber words in the large majority of Maghrebi dialects and it is firmly rooted in Bedouin Arabic. Strangely Mauritanians and Libyans are believed by mashreq arabs to speak a very pure form of arabic, when they just speak another variant of Darija. French or Spanish loan words are not always used and one can speak correct Darija without barely using any and substituting most of them with either Darija or Fus7a. This is purely attributed to code switching. I think this should be made clear with the relevant sources.
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As a side note, I just want to stress that having a code assigned by either SIL or the
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Speakers of Darija will know that the Berber influence is marginal except in Jebli and perhaps Jijel Arabic (the latter one I have never heard). Jebli is pre-bedouin and is influenced by the original arabic spoken by the only berbers to be arabized in the region prior to the mass arrival of the banu
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It would be more correct to specify that the 3 categories you have chosen for categoraztion the darija are not exclusive and that there are other regional dialects that were omitted. I would also like to stress the fact that the western arabic category is too wide. In my city (Salé) and in Rabat the
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are under the umbrella of "Moroccan Arabic". If and when you can provide reliable sources to back it up, then all those articles need to be merged into this one. Should that be the case and if you still insist on adding
Hassaniya, then a simple mention that it is different (assuming there is source
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All Arabic dialects in
Morocco, apart from Hassaniya, are under the umbrella of "Moroccan Arabic" (aka Moroccan Darija). There's Judeo-Moroccan Arabic too, but it's mutually intelligible with Moroccan Arabic. As I already stated, there's a minority of Hassaniya speakers in Morocco, even outside the
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Hence what I wrote earlier: feel free to rephrase it in a way that is satisfying to both parties. It's a completely valid and reasonable statement to point out that two languages belonging to the same family, and existing in the same country, should not be confused. It's the opposite opinion that
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link was leading you would have understood that there's nothing controversial about the statement. "Moroccan Sahara" is how
Morocco officially calls the disputed region of "Western Sahara" (another name is "Southern Provinces" which is the title of that article). I will add a clarifying statement
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are also loanwords used in standard arabic , maybe it's better to include words specific to
Moroccan or Maghrebi dialects. the retention of CA words no longer in use in other dialects specifically Middle Eastern, is a very good point.I think it is a striking feature in Maghrebi dialects, but
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1) The two dialects/languages could be confused by some readers, so clatification is important. 2) Hassaniya is spoken within the non-disputed regions of
Morocco in any case. If you can suggest a better phrasing of the sentence, go ahead, but removing the whole statement makes no sense.--
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That ISO-639-3 does not consider any other language/dialect with the name "Moroccan Arabic". Feel free to search further in that form. Either way, if your next comment is not a proposal to reformulate the removed sentence, I'll call for an RfC. Let's get this over with.--
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absence of a code doesn't mean that a language is either a dialect or a subdialect. I don't intend on dwelling on this as it's only partially related to a discussion that is nearing its end, but I just thought it's worth a mention in case the subject comes up again.
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I don't think it is a good idea, in fact I am the one who created this entry, as it was just redirecting to
Moroccan Arabic, but as the word is also used in Algeria, Tunisia and Libya I tought it would be better to mention this. In fact, I think we better add a
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1148:" more like Medlaoui's "Middle Moroccan Arabic", which is a standardization proposal that basically creates a language between spoken Moroccan Arabic and Standard Arabic? Shouldn't that have its own article or at least its own paragraph instead?--
1113:, please do not move and rename an article again without proper discussion. If you wish to propose a name change, please use the formal process for discussing moves where there could be disagreements. You can find the instructions for that
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for the the ISO 639-3. Whether they classified them as different different languages or dialects is not at all clear to me. To err on the side of caution, I suggest using "varieties of Arabic" instead of "languages" or
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To recap, you made a claim that All Arabic dialects in
Morocco, apart from Hassaniya, are under the umbrella of "Moroccan Arabic", then, you went on to prove yourself wrong by citing a source that clearly shows that
1543:) for Judeo-Moroccan Arabic. What exactly am I supposed to do with this piece of information (apart from deducing that these are two distinct dialects, each with its own ISO code)? What about the other dialects?
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It's not just SIL though. As mentioned above the same classification is used by ISO-639-3 standard. In fact, according to the article on SIL, they adopted the ISO-639-3 definition. So I would phrase the above:
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Is mezyan really of Berber Origin? In Iraqi they say zayn for "good" and this is from the
Classical Lexicon. Mezyan sounds like some kind of participle built off of this root, maybe the wazn مفعّل?
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between parentheses if that makes you happy. 2) The region is officially disputed, and 80% of it effectively controlled by the Moroccan government. That's the only position that can be considered
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I think he called that Middle Moroccan Arabic "لغة عربية مغربية وُسطى". There's an article on this concept generally, for a middle Arabic language between فصحى and local varieties, on WP Arabic:
1737:" depending on context. In any case, we seem to have homed in on a formulation that hopefully satisfies everyone. I will proceed to adding it to the lead of the article now. Thanks again.--
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You are more than welcome to start a RfC, but should you go there, you might as well list the other dialects as an option (without mentioning the international standard for language codes).
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There is also French, Spanish and multitude of other dialects that should also mentioned in that case (since you're assuming that the readers are imbeciles). Is that what you're suggesting?
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Exactly, that's how Morocco calls it, but since we're not the cheerleaders of Morocco, we couldn't care less how they call it over there. No, you don't add anything about Hassaniya since
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if you still insist on adding Hassaniya, then a simple mention that it is different (assuming there is source to back this claim) and a link to the main article is all that's needed
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The above keeps the message that they are classified as different and provides the appropriate wikilinks for anyone who's interested in knowing more. Let me know what you think.
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I don't know how that happened but last time I contributed to the table it was fine. Probably it got too much filled with the Oujda dialect. I don't know how to fix it. --
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That's your POV. There is no reason whatsoever anyone would confuse the two unrelated subjects. Again, Hassaniya has its own article for anyone who's interested in it.
1051:/ are about as far from each other as can be, and I find such a triphthong unlikely, especially in a language not known for a large vowel inventory. I'm assuming that /
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dialect is much closer to Tetouani/Jebli category than the Western one, so it's not only a matter of geography. Check our article (Arabe Salétin) for further details.
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That's not my POV, and there's nothing controversial about stating that two dialects that exist within the same country are not to be confused with one another.--
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Would someone have the time to spend getting the phrases to line up correctly? Wiki tables are not difficult, but here the proper syntax has not been followed.
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No, it's anything but a simple statement (especially, given the way it was phrased). You have yet to give a valid reason as to why it should be mentioned.
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may sound better. Compared to other Maghrebi dialects, the absence of Turkish loanwords seems to me a noticeable feature appertaining to Moroccan Arabic.--
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According to the international standard for language codes, Moroccan Arabic is different from the other Arabic dialects that are spoken locally, namely,
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Taking into account the fact that your claim was baseless, we obviously have to add Judeo-Moroccan Arabic to the sentence. Something along the lines of:
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If the idea is to inform the reader, then why did you cherry pick Hassaniya and left out all the other Arabic dialects that are spoken in Morocco?
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There you go, the suggestion you made is fine. Feel free to add that sentence to the lead, or I will add it myself. Thanks for the discussion.--
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I really don't think that the word "Najjar" (carpenter) is of Berber origin : it does exist in Standard Arabic ! The job is called "an-nijara".--
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unjustified edit by Jekillhide47 removes Tamazight from the vocabulary section and replaces the word amazigh with berber (Arab nationalism ?).
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I already did, but since saying once is obviously not enough, here it is again (this time in green, so that you can't possibly miss it again):
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572:أخ is a CA onomatopoeia expressing disgust,you can check any good dictionary, I don't think it should be on the Berber list of loanwords.
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demands a reason as to why the statement should be removed. If you insist on the contrary, then we'll have no choice but to call for an
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you're not referring to anything that is remotely connected to Western Sahara, otherwise, we'll have a different discussion altogether.
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In terms of verbs, the only one which I can think of may be of berber origin is "sifet" to send. 99% are arabic in any case.
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SIL International classifies Moroccan Arabic, Hassaniya Arabic and Judeo-Moroccan Arabic as different varieties of Arabic.
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As the general pronunciation of the words (not north, middle, south, or whatever). The only thing I'm not sure off is the
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In the vocabulary subsection "Examples of words borrowed from Spanish", there are a few unlikely IPA transcriptions:
585:طاح , tselsf تسلف, naw (rain CA نوء ) are used in Moroccan Arabic; I think they're shared by most Maghrebi dialects.
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It's a simple statement that these two Arabic varieties are different from each other and should not be confused.--
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on Knowledge given what official sources say. Stating that Morocco is "colonialist" is definitely not NPOV.--
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standard, classifies Moroccan Arabic, Hassaniya Arabic and Judeo-Moroccan Arabic as different languages.
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1059:/, and so I'll go ahead and fix that. Please go ahead and revert my edit if /ɑyɑ/ is the actual sound.
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Moroccan Arabic is a subset of Maghreb Arabic, which also comprises Algerian and Tunisian Arabics --
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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to the Vocabulary section because it's rife with original research. Few cite reliable sources.
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in many Andalusian zajals, you can check El Mughrib fi Hullayi el Maghrib. probable origin CA
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I agree that it's about a language, but why should Hassaniya be mentioned in this article?
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That's another claim that doesn't address all the dialects that I cited. I see one code (
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code is how you determine languages vs sub-dialects of the same language/dialect. See
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seems pretty much questionable as short vowels are present in a good number of words;
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the readers (that you seem to be treating as imbeciles) wouldn't know that either.
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12:39, 17 April 2007 (UTC) I'll probably be adding to the grammar section too.
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To download mp3s online to learn Moroccan Arabic, check out this website:
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to back this claim) and a link to the main article is all that's needed.
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This is an article about language, not about borders and nation-states.
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found in the article. So it's all good and doesn't need more editing --
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is probably not the best example, I don't know if words such as
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Knowledge level-5 vital articles in Society and social sciences
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Probably it would be good to have some example phrases, like:
1038:* playa : playa (beach) ([plɑyɑ) * pasiyo : paseo (walk) ()
471:. A 2 line(s) article! It's been suggested to me merged with
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is a serious mistake as far as the IPA is concerned, where ⟨
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Good job. Here are some notes that might be helpful. I read
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Original research in Vocabulary and examples of loanwords
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the languages that are listed under "Moroccan Arabic".--
742:& I have also added the northern moroccan sentences.
1191:: 1) this is article is about "Moroccan Arabic" and not
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Can something be added in this article about the letter
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Are these two different? Should the articles be merged?
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Ok, I've fixed the table. I used the transliteration of
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Talk in MORROCO article|class=B|level=5|topic=Society}}
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Knowledge vital articles in Society and social sciences
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Those other languages are not Arabic dialects. Duh!--
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B-Class vital articles in Society and social sciences
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Since you insist and to avoid injecting unnecessary
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Category:Morocco articles missing geocoordinate data
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1482:We'll need more than your word for the claim that
531:Great job Khalid. Tags are removed now. Cheers --
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1355:, how do you propose this article should treat
1806:Removal of Tamazight from Vocabulary section ?
1733:Sure. There are differing usages of the term "
1235:it has nothing to do with the primary subject
1577:is a distinct dialect with its own ISO code.
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351:Unknown-importance Morocco-related articles
381:Add geographic coordinates to articles in
321:Here are some tasks awaiting attention:
1464:disputed territories (0.8% according to
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1167:and it should be on WP English too.
964:Catagories of Darija/ Western Arabic
856:Can someone help with the Arabic at
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1642:into it, I 'll rephrase it as such:
1539:) for Moroccan Arabic and another (
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120:and see a list of open tasks.
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627:Are you OK?
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669:Labas 3laik??
666:
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651:Good night
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649:s' bah l'khir
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1488:Jebli Arabic
1444:same country
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1186:
1183:October 2022
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972:— Preceding
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661:Sana sa3eeda
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653:Tsba-alakher
652:
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643:Good Luck
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639:Excuse me
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475:. Cheers --
466:
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431:Mrebih Rebbu
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51:WikiProjects
34:
1739:Ideophagous
1708:"dialects".
1691:Ideophagous
1622:Ideophagous
1560:Ideophagous
1523:Ideophagous
1470:Ideophagous
1430:Ideophagous
1397:Ideophagous
1310:Ideophagous
1282:Ideophagous
1254:Ideophagous
1221:Ideophagous
1150:Ideophagous
925:—Preceding
629:Labas 3lik?
1828:Categories
1787:I added a
1187:Regarding
1165:لهجة بيضاء
1119:R Prazeres
1078:⟩ for the
1018:Asilah1981
1004:Asilah1981
878:Answered.
836:Sabertooth
832:Sabertooth
794:deeptrivia
777:Sabertooth
764:Sabertooth
744:Sabertooth
719:deeptrivia
685:la shokran
681:misharafin
655:Goodbye
645:hath' said
641:smah'liyah
563:habitually
1683:ISO 639-3
1515:ISO-639-3
1144:. Isn't "
1111:Achraf112
1092:Sol505000
907:Badagnani
880:Badagnani
866:Badagnani
818:IPA added
687:Please
677:ana labas
601:short i,
597:short u,
593:short e,
345:Rate the
123:Languages
114:languages
70:Languages
39:is rated
1721:M.Bitton
1665:M.Bitton
1640:WP:SYNTH
1608:M.Bitton
1545:M.Bitton
1501:M.Bitton
1451:M.Bitton
1411:M.Bitton
1383:M.Bitton
1353:M.Bitton
1324:M.Bitton
1296:M.Bitton
1268:M.Bitton
1239:M.Bitton
1197:M.Bitton
986:contribs
974:unsigned
927:unsigned
713:blajmeel
663:Hello
1735:dialect
657:beslama
579:habatˤa
510:done --
359:Cleanup
282:history
255:on the
228:Morocco
219:Morocco
175:Morocco
150:on the
41:B-class
1136:Hello
824:Shadda
755:Snezzy
732:Done--
561:دأباً
559:dɶʔbɶn
534:Szvest
478:Szvest
473:Darija
469:Darija
340:Assess
47:scale.
1636:WP:OR
1468:).--
1061:Oatco
665:ahlan
607:Sayih
595:Kulši
463:Merge
415:Other
403:Stubs
390:Photo
292:purge
287:watch
28:This
1816:talk
1797:talk
1793:إيان
1743:talk
1725:talk
1695:talk
1669:talk
1654:and
1626:talk
1612:talk
1597:and
1564:talk
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1519:here
1513:The
1505:talk
1494:and
1474:talk
1455:talk
1434:talk
1428:.--
1415:talk
1401:talk
1387:talk
1377:إيان
1365:talk
1361:إيان
1328:talk
1314:talk
1300:talk
1286:talk
1272:talk
1258:talk
1243:talk
1225:talk
1217:NPOV
1201:talk
1173:talk
1169:إيان
1154:talk
1140:إيان
1123:talk
1115:here
1096:talk
1065:talk
1022:talk
1008:talk
982:talk
955:talk
935:talk
911:talk
884:talk
870:talk
862:here
828:this
798:talk
723:talk
611:talk
591:sma3
583:tˤaħ
566:yekh
555:daba
349:and
277:edit
247:High
1638:or
1541:aju
1537:ary
1426:RfC
899:gaf
893:Gaf
599:nti
570:akh
496:.--
142:Low
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154:.
53::
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