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in a later century must have taken some kind of eyewitness description and converted to a street foot, but without the original report we have no reliable notion whether this was intended to be precise within a hundred or a thousand yards. So, seems to me, something like "the site of the modern NYU Medical Center" would be proper, that being a huge sprawling complex providing geographical vaguess corrsponding to the vagueness of our information. Pending, that is, someone providing the eye witness account that was converted by unknown parties with unknown precision to a modern street footing.
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1475:* A geographical subsection (or locale) would be useful to explain the nature of the terrain. Kip's Landing is approximately on present-day 34th Street (Frank E. Grizzard, p. 167), half way up the island; that the east river runs north and south, perhaps; that the Island we now know as Manhattan lies between it and the parallel Hudson. To the south of Kips land is a moderate height of.... The river is such and such wide. The CT militia were facing into the sun (or not).
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1503:* Better explanation of Putnam's isolation on the tip of the island and the potential consequences if he is stranded there. How large a force did he have? Was it militia or Continental Army troops? How big was the entire force, and what was his proportion? If he had been stranded there, what would that have meant to Washington's overall army, size, morale, and abilities?
1770:. I think I have a viable replacement, but I'm still in the process of confirming that. After seeing this discussed on Wikipediocracy I did some of my own digging and found the original source of the picture was actually Francis West's 1780 work "A view of Gravesend in Kent, with troops passing the Thames to Tilbury Fort". The print is reproduced at
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Well, it's a good question that I debated before (with myself). Considering that he wasn't present at the actual battle scene and didn't have much affect on the outcome (i.e., he didn't manage to stop the fleeing troops), I think that listing the actual "on-the-scene" commander is better. However, if
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The photo is mine, and it probably includes the landing site as well as the bicycle I used to get there. Wednesday I expect to have time to return again from
Greenwich Village via the same route and on the same bike, but it will be the same time of day with a somewhat unfavorable sun angle but maybe
1732:
This statement is offered without context or explanation. The claims of victory at Harlem
Heights have been debated at length on the relevant page, but did you intend to suggest that what Washington himself termed a minor skirmish negated the British success in occupying York and the lower half of
850:
or spread out over the sites of three or five later streets. Where 33d would be, I think is a gas station on a pier or platform over the river, or maybe it's the part of
Stuyvesant Cove Park where someone demonstrated the Brompton to a crowd, in late April of last year which is why I bought the one
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Boulevard. Anyway, though McCullough is a distinguished scholar, "1776" is a popularization and I haven't seen it and perhaps it isn't as fussy about indicating the vagueness of original sources as it ought to be. So yes, I think the article should be explicitly vague with "33d or 34th Street" or
900:
because of a show held on that spot. What spot? We keep citing these secondary sources that say, 33 and 34 and whatever else, but where can they come from? No primary source could have given those streets, since nobody at the time knew the island would one day have numbered streets. So, someone
845:
Speaking of which, 33d Street doesn't go all the way to the water, and I don't know whether it ever did or was suppressed for the 20th century NYU Medical Center. 34th does. These streets are only 250 feet (80 meters) apart, so I doubt anyone knows with sufficient precision whether boats landed
1747:
1776 did not see a decisive victory for the
British, nor did any other year, as we know. They lost the war. However, Kips Bay and the campaign for New York were victories nonetheless. "All the efforts at subjugation of the rebellion" had not failed. Between August and November 1776, the British
1702:
Much improved. I've made a few tweaks, etc. Hope you don't mind. It passes at this point. You might move the map to the geography section, and add a pic of
General Greene, or the Connecticut militia or something. Nice job. If you decide to take it further, you'll need more on the revolution
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less rainy. I mostly use my pictures in only one article, but there is no limit and if this one were greatly relevant I would recommend using it here. It just ain't much relevant to the event; the most relevant one seems to be the NYPL 1830 one, when the streets were only lines drawn on the
731:
puts the
American forces at 3,000, which I changed from the 900 in the previous article), probably because this isn't really considered a separate battle. I think the figures should stay for now as they seem in the ballpark, but these need citations. Hard to tag in the infobox.
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1) I could not determine from these references who the
American commander of the "forces" was. At the invasion point, the Americans were simply a line of sentries, while the bulk of the militia was gathered for a suspected invasion around Harlem. The previous article names
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Yes, I stated it above in this page, on March 29. "I should also note that I arrived at the figure of 500 for
American strength per David McCullough's statement 'a third or more were sick, and only about half of those fit for duty were manning the trenches by Kips Bay'."
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Although I've read the image use policy many times, it's still hazy to me - I think that I will pretty much always seek "expert" help on this before using an image. If anyone has comments on the above pictures or their use on Wiki, please share.
1365:* This is well focused, but needs more context for the average reader. You've assumed any reader will understand the context of the American Revolution/Colonial Rebellion, and probably this could be explained, if only briefly (1-2 paragraphs).
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seems to suggest this was a consequence of the 'victory' at Harlem
Heights, while glossing over the expulsion of Washington's forces from New York, culminating in the fairly catastrophic defeat at Fort Washington. Has a paragraph been lost?
869:). After some thought, I'll keep as 33rd for now for the same reasons as I mentioned above. However, I'm open to other thoughts on this. Perhaps something along the line of "...present day 33rd/34th street"? That seems a tad clumsy, though.
1774:, with the original description included. Sadly, it has taken us a bit long to find this error, so a lot of sources now seem to have erronously accepted our account that it shows the landing at Kip's Bay, but I guess that's how it goes. -
1428:"Landing" in the title refers to an action. It wasn't a critical point, but GW posted troops all along the shore because he didn't know where the British were landing. (I think all this is said in the article; is the sequence confusing?)
685:, I found Douglas. "According to the official roster, the Connecticut brigade commanded by Colonol William Douglas numbered 1500 men". I am going to use this as an official reference for both the American commander and American strength.
1359:* Be careful of splitting your sentence subject too far from the sentence's verb. General Howe, on such and such a date, after doing such and such else, with so and so, moved his forces into a position to a..... that sort of thing.
1028:. It should be two paragraphs that completely summarise the article. I would also try to find some relevant images or explain why none can be found. Other than that, go for it. Any questions can be left on my talkpage. Regards.
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I should also note that I arrived at the figure of 500 for
American strength per David McCullough's statement "a third or more were sick, and only about half of those fit for duty were manning the trenches by Kips Bay".
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on our (your) part. We can really only state what has been published in reliable, third-party sources - and means, for the moment, that we have to choose between the two street names provided in the references I have.
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The troop size of Putnam's force was already covered. I added composition and relative size (as portion of entire army). I have not seen any citable commentary on the consequences of their capture; but it
1420:* What exactly is a landing.... you refer to it as a maneuver, but isn't it also an established place? Were there docks, or a gentle slope into the water? Why was it a critical point? Why was it guarded?
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Hmm, looking above I see that I promised photos, which I took but didn't link here because, well, they weren't any more informative on this topic than my old photo. Two, incidentally, went into the
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824:. The streets were actually built a decade or two after the 1830 drawing, so as far as I know the bay looked much the same during the battle as in the drawing more than half a century later.
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The assumption is that readers wanting more detailed context (beyond "this is where we are in the war now") will read the hatnoted main article). But I can expand the background a bit.
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An analysis of the major battles in which Washington held field command in reveals 5 fairly definitie British victories-Long Island, Kip's Bay, Fort Washington, Brandywine and Germantown
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I did not see anything referenced there, so I decided to change it to 900 where I saw it referenced on another site. Prehaps it is 500. Do you have any references that state that? (
1646:
Thanks for your feedback; I'll get on it soon. (Not to take too much credit for myself, others did much of the work to get it where it is -- I just decided to put it through GA.)
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of doing an almost literal rewrite of this article. It was acceptable as an unreferenced stub before, but this incorporates two reliable references and has a bit more detail.
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I believe this easily meets the B-Class criteria for Milhist and I have amended the template to reflect this. Before an attempt at GA, I would try to expand the Lead per the
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662:, I opted for 33rd Street for the moment. However, this should be considered tentative, and if anyone has any light to shed on this, by all means share with the class.
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Among other things (in-line citations, expanded battle section(!), etc), this article needs an image or two. These are the ones I've found so far and am considering:
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673:, which takes you to a disambiguation page with no obvious choice. In fact, if you look in either index of the two references, there is only one Douglas mentioned -
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To present the occupation of Manahattan as apparently balanced by the inconclusive skirmish at Harlem Heights, does look like some sort of special pleading.
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Needs more contextualization. Background begins with British landing at Kips' bay, but doesn't establish the conflict in time and place very well.
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Well then! I suppose we should change it. If anyone else has an opinion, chime in - but for now you should go ahead and make the edit, Red4tribe.
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1448:* You refer later to the Howe brothers, but don't establish that they were actually brothers, which should happen when you mention the Admiral.
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effort had met with considerable success; (even if Howe failed to capitlise on his victories). You seem keen to play that down. Why is that?
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2) The number of forces involved is highly suspect in the previous article. Neither reference gives much of a forces strength figure (although
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Oof, it's difficult to keep up with my correspondence in summertime. Spent yesterday bicycling 33 miles around Queens including the site of
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I posted this before but I guess you must have missed it. Do you think George Washington should go under commanders at the
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1533:* If Washington's army had significant defenses on Long Island, what happened? Did the resistance crumble there as well?
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772:. This is a great picture showing the bay from offshore, but it's from 1830, which is 54 years after the actual battle.
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1738:"The campaign of 1776 had not been a decisive victory for the British as the enemy's resistance had not been broken"
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to add a geographic description. More details will follow, I believe Schecter has a decent description of the bay.
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1331:* is it a maneuver or a battle? If it is a maneuver, can it be a decisive British victory? Or was it a rout!
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There is one controversial bit between the two references on the location of Kip's Bay in present-day terms.
341:. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a
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I'll be reviewing the article in greater depth over the next two days, and will post my suggestions here.
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I'll give more feedback tomorrow, or after you've made some context adjustments. Nice work so far!
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I hope, using "operation" instead of battle, and not characterizing it so much as a "victory".
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Hi Jim. The problem with doing that is that it would most likely constitute
1234:. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
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Oh, and add the reference to the list (and citation to the commander box).
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83:. This is identified as among the best series of articles produced by the
1267:. This is how the article, as of January 26, 2010, compares against the
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Knowledge featured topics New York and New Jersey campaign good content
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puts it at 34th Street, as did the previous version of the article. As
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Thanks Woody, I appreciate the time you took to assess and comment.
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I also think the figures should stay for now with citations.--
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commander at this battle, of course we should defer to that.
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generally, and the pre and post Kips Landing specifically.
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Alright I added it. I see most of the references came from
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you have a source that actually states that Washington was
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no prob. drop me a nudge when you want me to look again.
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page - is it proper to also include it on the battle page?
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1393:* importance of summer enlistment needs to be explained.
552:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the
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A fact from this article was featured on Knowledge's
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A third reference to the street says 34th (Matloff,
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North American military history task force articles
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1541:Are you asking for a more detailed description of
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1853:GA-Class North American military history articles
658:is more well-known, more recent, and has won the
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48:If it no longer meets these criteria, you can
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1767:I've removed the painting from the infobox
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1275:1. Well written?: nicely written overall.
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1612:* I added publisher info on the old map.
1564:to provide a slightly longer background.
448:United States military history task force
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1736:The abrupt leap in the next sentence to
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1589:* Kip's Bay needs author information.
570:Knowledge:WikiProject New York (state)
355:Knowledge:WikiProject Military history
345:. To use this banner, please see the
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1196:by McCullogh, I just bought that.
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1303:4. Neutral point of view?: yes
846:only at the later 33d or only
770:A drawing of Kip's Bay in 1830
665:There are a few other issues:
650:puts it at 33rd Street, while
271:It is of interest to multiple
29:has been listed as one of the
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1232:Talk:Landing at Kip's Bay/GA1
1121:This is quoted from the book
950:'s capture, Long Island City
608:This article is supported by
564:and see a list of open tasks.
1823:Old requests for peer review
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1283:2. Factually accurate?: Yes.
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647:Washington's Crossing (book)
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1306:5. Article stability? yes
1269:six good article criteria
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1798:Knowledge good articles
1278:Has a few prose issues.
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616:Mid-importance
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562:the discussion
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223:On this day...
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163:April 28, 2010
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125:April 21, 2008
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1286:3. Coverage:
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1733:Manahattan?
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1705:Auntieruth55
1687:
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1666:Auntieruth55
1647:
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1315:Auntieruth55
1312:
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1243:Auntieruth55
1239:
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894:Swift Folder
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764:
748:DavidD4scnrt
745:
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664:
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313:Early Modern
273:WikiProjects
238:Good article
237:
220:
198:
195:May 30, 2020
183:
175:Not promoted
168:
149:
130:
89:please do so
73:
69:
49:
47:
43:please do so
31:
30:
26:
1228:transcluded
948:Nathan Hale
792:Kip's house
734:Tanthalas39
681:Update: In
637:I took the
132:Peer review
1792:Categories
1020:Assessment
958:Park, and
956:John Bowne
554:U.S. state
227:column on
81:good topic
37:under the
1454:Clarified
1399:Clarified
1337:Clarified
1298:enerally,
1240:Reviewer:
1220:GA Review
1198:Red4tribe
1137:Red4tribe
1125:, pg 157.
1084:Red4tribe
1074:Kip's Bay
984:Red4tribe
952:car float
217:Main Page
786:Kips Bay
660:Pulitzer
558:New York
301:European
263:GA-class
190:Promoted
137:Reviewed
51:reassess
1682:Hmm, I
1539:Comment
1426:Comment
1371:Comment
729:The War
639:liberty
633:Rewrite
297:British
219:in the
115:Process
1695:♪piano
1655:♪piano
1628:♪piano
1618:Thanks
1603:♪piano
1586:Images
1573:♪piano
1562:Edited
1554:♪piano
1522:♪piano
1492:♪piano
1481:Edited
1464:♪piano
1437:♪piano
1409:♪piano
1382:♪piano
1348:♪piano
1259:review
898:Strida
269:scale.
156:Listed
118:Result
77:series
1776:Bilby
1690:Magic
1684:think
1650:Magic
1623:Magic
1598:Magic
1568:Magic
1549:Magic
1517:Magic
1487:Magic
1459:Magic
1432:Magic
1404:Magic
1377:Magic
1343:Magic
1230:from
1030:Woody
1780:talk
1754:talk
1750:JF42
1709:talk
1670:talk
1593:Done
1319:talk
1300:yes.
1247:talk
1202:talk
1194:1776
1141:talk
1088:talk
1034:talk
988:talk
969:talk
907:talk
896:and
857:talk
830:talk
752:talk
738:talk
683:1776
205:Kept
112:Date
79:, a
1511:was
1181:|
1177:Tan
1162:|
1158:Tan
1110:|
1106:Tan
1100:the
1051:|
1047:Tan
1007:|
1003:Tan
928:|
924:Tan
877:|
873:Tan
807:|
803:Tan
713:|
709:Tan
693:|
689:Tan
586:???
556:of
1794::
1782:)
1756:)
1711:)
1672:)
1545:?
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1271::
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1204:)
1184:39
1165:39
1143:)
1135:"
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1036:)
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994:)
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931:39
909:)
880:39
859:)
832:)
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754:)
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696:39
618:).
510::
380:/
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295::
54:it
45:.
1778:(
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967:(
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828:(
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736:(
594:.
349:.
275:.
231:.
225:"
221:"
91:.
56:.
Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License. Additional terms may apply.
